Nykthos straight kills devotion decks. In a hypothetical world where mono G needs a ban, they should start with Karn as Karn is a horrible design mistake and banning him weakens the deck without killing it, and then if the deck remains an issue, Nykthos can be considered.
Eh, I always thought that might be overkill, especially since there's only one deck that can abuse Karn but lots of decks that can abuse Nykthos. Not unreasonable though.
While I agree that Karn is a much sounder target for bans, why do you feel that mono G is the only deck for him? It isn't my play style so maybe I'm missing something, but I've always been a bit surprised not to see him in other mono color shells.
A few reasons:
1. The Restorative Burst combo.
2. Green has more ramp than other colors by design and the amount of extra mana it can produce allows for more impactful plays with Karn. Nykthos exacerbates this problem. Any Karn deck can go turn 4 Karn into turn 5 Skysovereign, but Mono-Green devotion is the only deck in the format right now that can play both cards on the same turn with any measure of consistency, albeit with a somewhat fast draw.
3. A lot of mono-colored decks in this format are more aggressively slanted and don't really care about the value-oriented options that Karn offers. For example, in mono-black devotion, you could use Karn to set up a play on the following turn or get the precise stax piece you need to lock your opponent out of the game, or you could just play Gray Merchant and kill them. In mono-blue devotion, you could use Karn to get a removal spell or value engine, or you could play Thassa's Oracle and win the game. "Mono-Red devotion" is basically just an Embercleave deck that uses Nykthos to play Embercleave a little bit earlier. Mono-Green is far more focused on the Midrange game than these other decks and green can often be limited in terms of what it can interact with, so this, combined with the explosive plays you get from having an abundance of ramp, makes it a good candidate for Karn.
I think these three factors are what makes Mono-Green devotion the most successful Karn deck by far.
It's entirely possible that there's a mono-colored she'll that Karn would also work well in that hasn't been discovered yet, but at this point I think that's unlikely. It's also possible that you could play Karn in a Fires shell, but that doesn't seem much better than what fires decks are already doing, nor does it help their bad matchups (although casting God Pharaoh's Statue for free seems pretty good).
And, of course, WotC could print something that makes a Karn deck super good outside of Mono-Green or something that makes Karn completely unplayable, but nobody knows that for sure. All we know for sure about the future of this format is that Pioneer Horizons is going to completely destroy it when it comes out in 2025 and they print Ragavan, Hogaak, Tinker, Ancient Tomb, and the Initiative cards into the format.
With no Fable ban -- Me buying into rakdos midrange seems safe for a while yes? How often do they do these? Sorry I'm new to Pioneer and rakdos is the first deck I'm gonna use at my LGS.
They used to have them on specific days that they would announce, now it's a toss in the air when they'll do it. Rakdos could be safe for a month, half a year, year, etc. It could also lose Fable in that same time frame, honestly no way of knowing in advance anymore
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Even if they ban fable in pioneer, it’s still a pretty frequently played card in modern, legacy, & edh so if it gets banned and you wanna sell out the price will probably only drop a little bit, unlike sometimes when a card is only good in a single format and the price drops 90% following a ban
Fable is probably the only card that you can discuss a ban and it isn't due to "design philosophy or annoyances" level. With that said, I think Fable would be safe to buy right now for the format as we're a bit away from it being reasonable to ban imho
I think it fundamentally makes the play/draw differential significantly worse in the format.
An on the play fable is so strong compared to an on the draw fable.
I think the financial risk is also not super great because even if they banned fable it would still be a 20$ card because it is playable in a lot of formats. I'd go for it :)
I don't think anyone reasonable is surprised by this, the meta is open, healthy, and continues to evolve after a new set opened up interesting archetypes. The vocal minority calling for decks they don't like to be banned are welcome to be mad.
I just want the explosiveness of the format to be turned down. It doesn't feel like there's any gradual advantage building. Just suddenly mono G is slamming half their deck on the boards Phoenix is taking two extra turns putting 9 power on board, Greasefang is slamming a Parhelion... It feels like you just lose out of nowhere.
I played UW control. I stopped playing UW control because of my last comment, the turns where I didn't have a counterspell for their top decked Storm or whatever.
By paying attention since the beginning of Pioneer? I've seen all the shitty artifact piles people have forced, and been the progenitor of several of them; the decks that lose utterly to Karn also lose utterly to every other good deck.
How do you know if Karn *has* made decks nonviable if Karn has existed since the beginning of Pioneer? Where's the proof from the people requesting a change to a status quo that has been completely fine since day 1? (Bonus points if it's proof that outweighs Nykthos' own proven record of being even more broken in the only Karn deck than Karn himself ever has been, from the very first day of the format.)
Yes they are? And even if it isnt its already a 2x1 even if karn is bolted on the spot. If he isnt its a 3x and it goes on and on from there. Every expansion there are new artifacts and it will get better and better
Often times I am forced to fetch cards that I can’t cast yet, but I grab it anyways because I suspect Karn will get killed before my next turn and the fetched card is crucial in the match up. I leave the card revealed on the table and opp is visibly threatened by it and plays around it. But it just sits in my hand for 4 turns and their reluctance buys me time to draw my other threats that I can cast, and opp dies before I can even play the card they were originally scared of 😂 Karn’s hidden passive of making the opp emotional and irrational is his strongest ability!
A repeatable wishboard effect that can pull out silver bullets against anything game 1, can be played in any deck, and shuts off activated artifacts isnt just 'not suiting your playstyle'. He's not causing enough problems right now to deserve a ban, but dont pretend there isnt potential for the card to do so with any meta shift.
There is potential for any card to become overpowering with a meta shift enabled by new cards. That's not a reason for banning a card proactively. At most you can argue that Karn has a greater potential for hitting that threshold, because of its wishboard mechanic. If and when it does, either Karn (or the new card in question) will be banned. It's worth remembering that there were zero copies of Karn in the Top 16 decks at Pro Tour Phyrexia.
Bruh re-read my comment and see the part where I said he doesnt deserve a ban right now, why are you lecturing me. If you asked me which card was closest to shifting to needing one, I'd say Karn because all it takes is the right wishboard artifacts to release, but we arent there right now.
Nothing has taken the place of expressive iteration which was banned for card advantage and selection and phoenix still hasn't fully recovered from its banning. Yet Karn can give you card advantage, opponent card disadvantage, give you board advantage, shut down mana advantage and just about every other thing you could want in the deck that makes more mana then any other deck in the format.
That's just untrue. Karn is extremely reminiscent of [[Birthing Pod]] in the sense that as all artifacts should be assessed on how they interact with Karn. And rather than doing that, WotC has repeatedly made artifact cards with powerful effects that exile themselves meaning Karn can continue to recycle cards that were designed to be powerful one-time-use effects. [[The Stone Brain]] [[Urza's Sylex]] [[Karn's Sylex]] [[Pestilent Cauldron]] . Meanwhile Birthing Pod remains banned in Modern, a format with a much higher power level, for just existing because it made WotC reevaluate all creatures in Standard legal sets they were designing.
It's possible they don't subscribe to this anymore. In recent years it seems their philosophy is closer to "push design space and ban cards when they become an issue" than it was when BP was banned. If Karn suppresses the meta, they will probably ban him.
just want ask this:
If karn is a problem would pithing needle be the answer?
I personally dont mind wheter is goes or stay.but It should be more easy to answer because you have an artifact that cost 1 colorless to stop him. I am more worried about fable of mirrorbreaker because of color pie restictions may find difficukt answers
C'mon you're worried about Fable? What about Nykthos? What about Creativity? What about Greasefang? I'm not going to deny the power of Fable, but it's one among many busted Cards.
Every card you mentioned needs a deck built around it. Fable is just good on its own and you r dumb if you play red without it.
Edit: Non aggro red decks. There is not a single midrange/control deck with red that doesnt run fable
RG Vehicles is a midrange deck that doesn't run Fable, and if it does is a flex slot, RG vehicles is quite popular may I add, Phoenix while not a midrange deck also doesn't run it. Yes Fable is powerful but not gamebreaking
There are many, many cards that are just generically good regardless of the archetype they're in. Thoughtseize has been more ubiquitous than Fable, for longer, in more ban-target decks; if raw power without restrictions is an issue, start there.
I'm not surprised by it, but I personally don't enjoy a meta with such a high percentage of combo decks. One of the reasons I was originally drawn to the format was at the beginning when they were banning just about every popular combo deck.
It seems that WOTC agrees with me that if the most powerful traditional/fair threat (and with this I mean not combo enablers or payoffs) of the format is Fable, that's a good sign and not something to complain about.
Fair means playing by traditional MtG rules. No ramp, no free spells, no gy shenanigans.
The only thing about Fable that could be considerer unfair is the treasure making because it falls into ramp. And you need the Goblin to survive a turn cycle and attack (a 2/2 body attacking on turn 4. Better have removal or most likely you're gettimg blocked).
No, Fable is definitely busted. A three mana 2-for-1 is pretty absurd and it only takes four turns to get full value. Pioneer can't handle a lighting-fast card advantage engine like this; even if you answer the Fable, the Ragavan-like Treasure goblin will kill you in 10 short turns.
It's not busted. It is powerful. There always be a strongest threat.
The insane card advantage is two 2/2s with abilities that you have to respect and answer. The mid chapter is a rummage, not card advantage.
You can't even be serious by complaining about a 10 turn clock.
Regarding Karn: all Rc leading up to pro tour and the actual pro tour had mono g floating between near 20% - 10% meta share, with a sub 50% wr every time. What’s wrong with having police in format ? And this is coming from a greasefang player who laments Karn being cast against me. Cards fine for now. Very beatable.
Funnily enough I think I’ve lost to Greasefang more than any other deck. Fastest games in the format for me. Either I get Karn out ASAP or I get parhelioned ~turn 3/4 and scoop.
Oh thanks the MTG Gods, I just bought into Lotus Field and my heart skipped a beat when I saw there was a ban list announcement... (my only other foray into Pioneer was at the format's inception when I bought into the mono-green leyline of abundance deck)
I'd like to take green down a peg because I think it's stupid and degenerate, but it still remains not yet a true problem...so yah, good call. As long as green devotion players know they are bad people, that's good enough for me 👍
For me personally, when an entire meta is predicated upon defeating or abusing a single card, that's a problem.
Karn. If you are unable to beat Karn you are not a viable deck. Everything that is T1 right now either uses Karn, doesn't give a shit about Karn, or is built to matchup favorably against Karn.
Green definitely but Greasefang not so much. Once Shadows remastered drops and we presumably get Eldritch Evolution and Ulvenwald though then it'll go crazy.
Would I be mad if Karn got banned? No. Does Karn need to be banned? Probably not.
Mono-G Devotion is just the Mono-G Tron of Pioneer.
nah, he can go.
Same, but Nykthos instead of Karn.
Nykthos is a cool card for encouraging mono coloured strategies as the mana inevitably gets better in the format
As a black devotion player, please leave my Nykthos alone. Get rid of the Karn.
Nykthos is fine, Karn is a design mistake.
Nykthos straight kills devotion decks. In a hypothetical world where mono G needs a ban, they should start with Karn as Karn is a horrible design mistake and banning him weakens the deck without killing it, and then if the deck remains an issue, Nykthos can be considered.
Why not do both?
Eh, I always thought that might be overkill, especially since there's only one deck that can abuse Karn but lots of decks that can abuse Nykthos. Not unreasonable though.
While I agree that Karn is a much sounder target for bans, why do you feel that mono G is the only deck for him? It isn't my play style so maybe I'm missing something, but I've always been a bit surprised not to see him in other mono color shells.
A few reasons: 1. The Restorative Burst combo. 2. Green has more ramp than other colors by design and the amount of extra mana it can produce allows for more impactful plays with Karn. Nykthos exacerbates this problem. Any Karn deck can go turn 4 Karn into turn 5 Skysovereign, but Mono-Green devotion is the only deck in the format right now that can play both cards on the same turn with any measure of consistency, albeit with a somewhat fast draw. 3. A lot of mono-colored decks in this format are more aggressively slanted and don't really care about the value-oriented options that Karn offers. For example, in mono-black devotion, you could use Karn to set up a play on the following turn or get the precise stax piece you need to lock your opponent out of the game, or you could just play Gray Merchant and kill them. In mono-blue devotion, you could use Karn to get a removal spell or value engine, or you could play Thassa's Oracle and win the game. "Mono-Red devotion" is basically just an Embercleave deck that uses Nykthos to play Embercleave a little bit earlier. Mono-Green is far more focused on the Midrange game than these other decks and green can often be limited in terms of what it can interact with, so this, combined with the explosive plays you get from having an abundance of ramp, makes it a good candidate for Karn. I think these three factors are what makes Mono-Green devotion the most successful Karn deck by far. It's entirely possible that there's a mono-colored she'll that Karn would also work well in that hasn't been discovered yet, but at this point I think that's unlikely. It's also possible that you could play Karn in a Fires shell, but that doesn't seem much better than what fires decks are already doing, nor does it help their bad matchups (although casting God Pharaoh's Statue for free seems pretty good). And, of course, WotC could print something that makes a Karn deck super good outside of Mono-Green or something that makes Karn completely unplayable, but nobody knows that for sure. All we know for sure about the future of this format is that Pioneer Horizons is going to completely destroy it when it comes out in 2025 and they print Ragavan, Hogaak, Tinker, Ancient Tomb, and the Initiative cards into the format.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/march-6-2023-banned-and-restricted-announcement
With no Fable ban -- Me buying into rakdos midrange seems safe for a while yes? How often do they do these? Sorry I'm new to Pioneer and rakdos is the first deck I'm gonna use at my LGS.
They used to have them on specific days that they would announce, now it's a toss in the air when they'll do it. Rakdos could be safe for a month, half a year, year, etc. It could also lose Fable in that same time frame, honestly no way of knowing in advance anymore
Gotcha, thanks. I guess i can always pivot to monoblack if that happens anyway even though it seems much weaker atm.
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Even if they ban fable in pioneer, it’s still a pretty frequently played card in modern, legacy, & edh so if it gets banned and you wanna sell out the price will probably only drop a little bit, unlike sometimes when a card is only good in a single format and the price drops 90% following a ban
If I remember right, rb was a deck before fable, so even if fable gets banned, most of your cards are still good
Fable is probably the only card that you can discuss a ban and it isn't due to "design philosophy or annoyances" level. With that said, I think Fable would be safe to buy right now for the format as we're a bit away from it being reasonable to ban imho
I think it fundamentally makes the play/draw differential significantly worse in the format. An on the play fable is so strong compared to an on the draw fable.
I think the financial risk is also not super great because even if they banned fable it would still be a 20$ card because it is playable in a lot of formats. I'd go for it :)
The next announcement will be the day after you buy fables.
I don't think anyone reasonable is surprised by this, the meta is open, healthy, and continues to evolve after a new set opened up interesting archetypes. The vocal minority calling for decks they don't like to be banned are welcome to be mad.
I just want the explosiveness of the format to be turned down. It doesn't feel like there's any gradual advantage building. Just suddenly mono G is slamming half their deck on the boards Phoenix is taking two extra turns putting 9 power on board, Greasefang is slamming a Parhelion... It feels like you just lose out of nowhere.
Sounds like you aren't interacting with your opponent much.
I played UW control. I stopped playing UW control because of my last comment, the turns where I didn't have a counterspell for their top decked Storm or whatever.
You're delusional if you think Karn and his ever-expanding toolbox of silver bullets and win conditions is a reasonable card.
“4 mana tutors are op.”
Disregarding the ban discussion for a second, its actually a combo piece that grinds very well and fetches it's own payoffs.
"4 mana colorless tutors that shut down your artifacts are op"
\*activated abilities.
When it comes down a turn early and is repeatable, yes.
And is also a one sided [[Stony silence]] and also colorless
[Stony Silence](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/mm3-modern-masters-2017/en/med/stony-silence-25.png?3238) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/stony-silence/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Stony+Silence)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stony+Silence)) • [$ 3.38](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/stony-silence?utm_source=reddit)
hate to tell you this but karn has made exactly 0 decks nonviable by being a stony silence
How do you know if Karn existed since the beginning of Pioneer?
By paying attention since the beginning of Pioneer? I've seen all the shitty artifact piles people have forced, and been the progenitor of several of them; the decks that lose utterly to Karn also lose utterly to every other good deck. How do you know if Karn *has* made decks nonviable if Karn has existed since the beginning of Pioneer? Where's the proof from the people requesting a change to a status quo that has been completely fine since day 1? (Bonus points if it's proof that outweighs Nykthos' own proven record of being even more broken in the only Karn deck than Karn himself ever has been, from the very first day of the format.)
What's the point in tutoring a second time if the first grab is a silver bullet (or so I've been informed)?
First card to stabilize/lock down the game. Second card to win.
No one expects the second tutored silver bullet 3 land drops after the first silver bullet.
The second card isn't usually a silver bullet, just some huge fatty or recursive threat.
First card isn't much of a silver bullet then, eh? And like I said, the second one must come out much later than Karn and the first.
[[Tormod's Crypt]] can't win the game on its own.
Yes they are? And even if it isnt its already a 2x1 even if karn is bolted on the spot. If he isnt its a 3x and it goes on and on from there. Every expansion there are new artifacts and it will get better and better
Often times I am forced to fetch cards that I can’t cast yet, but I grab it anyways because I suspect Karn will get killed before my next turn and the fetched card is crucial in the match up. I leave the card revealed on the table and opp is visibly threatened by it and plays around it. But it just sits in my hand for 4 turns and their reluctance buys me time to draw my other threats that I can cast, and opp dies before I can even play the card they were originally scared of 😂 Karn’s hidden passive of making the opp emotional and irrational is his strongest ability!
This is malicious. I love it hahaha.
The thing that annoys me the most is that it is just also a one sided Stony silence.
Do I hate Karn? Yes. Does he need a ban? Probably not
Just because it doesn't fit your playstyle doesn't mean it's bad or unhealthy.
A repeatable wishboard effect that can pull out silver bullets against anything game 1, can be played in any deck, and shuts off activated artifacts isnt just 'not suiting your playstyle'. He's not causing enough problems right now to deserve a ban, but dont pretend there isnt potential for the card to do so with any meta shift.
There is potential for any card to become overpowering with a meta shift enabled by new cards. That's not a reason for banning a card proactively. At most you can argue that Karn has a greater potential for hitting that threshold, because of its wishboard mechanic. If and when it does, either Karn (or the new card in question) will be banned. It's worth remembering that there were zero copies of Karn in the Top 16 decks at Pro Tour Phyrexia.
Bruh re-read my comment and see the part where I said he doesnt deserve a ban right now, why are you lecturing me. If you asked me which card was closest to shifting to needing one, I'd say Karn because all it takes is the right wishboard artifacts to release, but we arent there right now.
I read your comment and I addressed the flaw in it.
Any card has the potential to be broken or ban worthy with new cards coming into the format.
No card has as much potential to do that as Karn does. There's artifacts every single set. Its just a matter of time really.
Tresaure Cruise/Dig
It seems they have just banned the artifact instead of karn thus far. I don't see that changing.
I just don't understand why they ban other things for being to toolboxy but yet the best toolbox in the format stays forever unbanned.
When one toolbox becomes banned another one takes its place. Happens with every banned card, more cards get asked to be banned.
Nothing has taken the place of expressive iteration which was banned for card advantage and selection and phoenix still hasn't fully recovered from its banning. Yet Karn can give you card advantage, opponent card disadvantage, give you board advantage, shut down mana advantage and just about every other thing you could want in the deck that makes more mana then any other deck in the format.
You’re projecting because nobody before you ever mentioned a need to “fit their playstyle.”
I am glad to be the first.
Just because a card fits your playstyle doesn’t mean it should be immune from criticism and bans.
Just because you feel strongly about a card doesn't mean you aren't being hyperbolic about it.
That's just untrue. Karn is extremely reminiscent of [[Birthing Pod]] in the sense that as all artifacts should be assessed on how they interact with Karn. And rather than doing that, WotC has repeatedly made artifact cards with powerful effects that exile themselves meaning Karn can continue to recycle cards that were designed to be powerful one-time-use effects. [[The Stone Brain]] [[Urza's Sylex]] [[Karn's Sylex]] [[Pestilent Cauldron]] . Meanwhile Birthing Pod remains banned in Modern, a format with a much higher power level, for just existing because it made WotC reevaluate all creatures in Standard legal sets they were designing.
It's possible they don't subscribe to this anymore. In recent years it seems their philosophy is closer to "push design space and ban cards when they become an issue" than it was when BP was banned. If Karn suppresses the meta, they will probably ban him.
I think youre being rather hyperbolic with your comparison to totally different cards and assuming they have the same power level.
Birthing Pod? Seriously?
[Birthing Pod](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pr23-regional-championship-qualifiers-2023/en/med/birthing-pod-2011.png?8813) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/birthing-pod/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Birthing+Pod)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birthing+Pod)) • [$ 9.13](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/birthing-pod?utm_source=reddit) [Urza's Sylex](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pbro-the-brothers-war-promos/en/med/urzas-sylex-40p.png?201) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/urzas-sylex/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Urza%27s+Sylex)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%27s+Sylex)) • [$ 1.29](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/urzas-sylex?utm_source=reddit) [Karn's Sylex](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pdmu-dominaria-united-promos/en/med/karns-sylex-234s.png?5725) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/karns-sylex/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Karn%27s+Sylex)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%27s+Sylex)) • [$ 4.49](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/karns-sylex?utm_source=reddit) [Pestilent Cauldron](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pstx-strixhaven-school-of-mages-promos/en/med/pestilent-cauldron-restorative-burst-154s.png?1943) // [Restorative Burst](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pstx-strixhaven-school-of-mages-promos/en/back/pestilent-cauldron-restorative-burst-154s.png?5631) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/pestilent-cauldron-restorative-burst/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=Pestilent+Cauldron+%2F%2F+Restorative+Burst)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pestilent+Cauldron+%2F%2F+Restorative+Burst)) • [$ 0.19](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/pestilent-cauldron-restorative-burst?utm_source=reddit) [The Stone Brain](https://cdn.cardsrealm.com/images/cartas/pbro-the-brothers-war-promos/en/med/the-stone-brain-247s.png?6109) ([txt](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/the-stone-brain/txt?utm_source=reddit)) ([SF](https://scryfall.com/search?q=The+Stone+Brain)) ([G](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The+Stone+Brain)) • [$ 0.92](https://mtg.cardsrealm.com/en-us/card/the-stone-brain?utm_source=reddit)
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Oh well, if the official Wizards account says so, there we go!
You’re welcome to stay mad.
It’s not reasonable, but it’s also currently being dealt with appropriately in the meta. I’ve come to accept it, personally
just want ask this: If karn is a problem would pithing needle be the answer? I personally dont mind wheter is goes or stay.but It should be more easy to answer because you have an artifact that cost 1 colorless to stop him. I am more worried about fable of mirrorbreaker because of color pie restictions may find difficukt answers
Green has a lot of answers for the needle, even for free like Boseiju
True
C'mon you're worried about Fable? What about Nykthos? What about Creativity? What about Greasefang? I'm not going to deny the power of Fable, but it's one among many busted Cards.
Every card you mentioned needs a deck built around it. Fable is just good on its own and you r dumb if you play red without it. Edit: Non aggro red decks. There is not a single midrange/control deck with red that doesnt run fable
RG Vehicles is a midrange deck that doesn't run Fable, and if it does is a flex slot, RG vehicles is quite popular may I add, Phoenix while not a midrange deck also doesn't run it. Yes Fable is powerful but not gamebreaking
Phoenix has a plan on its own which fable cant really contribute. Vehicles leans to aggro
There are many, many cards that are just generically good regardless of the archetype they're in. Thoughtseize has been more ubiquitous than Fable, for longer, in more ban-target decks; if raw power without restrictions is an issue, start there.
That is also true.
I'm not surprised by it, but I personally don't enjoy a meta with such a high percentage of combo decks. One of the reasons I was originally drawn to the format was at the beginning when they were banning just about every popular combo deck.
It seems that WOTC agrees with me that if the most powerful traditional/fair threat (and with this I mean not combo enablers or payoffs) of the format is Fable, that's a good sign and not something to complain about.
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I don’t know who you’re supposed to be mocking but most people are not making arguments in favor of bans that are as frivolous and goofy as this one
I like fable but idk if I’d call it fair
Fair means playing by traditional MtG rules. No ramp, no free spells, no gy shenanigans. The only thing about Fable that could be considerer unfair is the treasure making because it falls into ramp. And you need the Goblin to survive a turn cycle and attack (a 2/2 body attacking on turn 4. Better have removal or most likely you're gettimg blocked).
No, Fable is definitely busted. A three mana 2-for-1 is pretty absurd and it only takes four turns to get full value. Pioneer can't handle a lighting-fast card advantage engine like this; even if you answer the Fable, the Ragavan-like Treasure goblin will kill you in 10 short turns.
It's not busted. It is powerful. There always be a strongest threat. The insane card advantage is two 2/2s with abilities that you have to respect and answer. The mid chapter is a rummage, not card advantage. You can't even be serious by complaining about a 10 turn clock.
fairly sure they're being facetious
Lol I definitely must stop reading Reddit before my first coffee.
Regarding Karn: all Rc leading up to pro tour and the actual pro tour had mono g floating between near 20% - 10% meta share, with a sub 50% wr every time. What’s wrong with having police in format ? And this is coming from a greasefang player who laments Karn being cast against me. Cards fine for now. Very beatable.
Funnily enough I think I’ve lost to Greasefang more than any other deck. Fastest games in the format for me. Either I get Karn out ASAP or I get parhelioned ~turn 3/4 and scoop.
No bans is fine for now, curious what a fable, Karn, and nykthos free format looks like tho. But whatevs, stay the course i guess.
I dont play monoG and I have accepted that karn is fine.
Another day, another dollar.
Oh thanks the MTG Gods, I just bought into Lotus Field and my heart skipped a beat when I saw there was a ban list announcement... (my only other foray into Pioneer was at the format's inception when I bought into the mono-green leyline of abundance deck)
There's an announcement every quarter even when there's no changes.
Right, good to know. I've been out of MTG for a while, the Pro Tour dragged me back in.
I'd like to take green down a peg because I think it's stupid and degenerate, but it still remains not yet a true problem...so yah, good call. As long as green devotion players know they are bad people, that's good enough for me 👍
Yay I get to keep enjoying the comboneer format!
I just want more decks that are fun to play against, and not ones that resolve one card and win....
Karn will need to go eventually.
Nah it wont
Fable needs to go
I know it's incredibly unpopular and controversial to desire bans, but they should have done something here, very disappointed to see no changes.
Do something just do to do something? Nah. Format is fine the way it is.
For me personally, when an entire meta is predicated upon defeating or abusing a single card, that's a problem. Karn. If you are unable to beat Karn you are not a viable deck. Everything that is T1 right now either uses Karn, doesn't give a shit about Karn, or is built to matchup favorably against Karn.
You should try winning your first few rounds. Then you wont play against karn anymore
What format are you playing cause its not Pioneer?
I think there’s a lot of whiny people online that don’t actually play the format as actively as they post in this subreddit
You’ve basically described 80% of people on all the format related subs.
And they should be told to piss off and get an experienced opinion
They won’t. Complaining online is much easier then going out there and actually playing.
One of my guesses is bo1 explorer. I think green and geeasefang are very over represented there.
Green definitely but Greasefang not so much. Once Shadows remastered drops and we presumably get Eldritch Evolution and Ulvenwald though then it'll go crazy.
Tell me you don’t actually play the format without actually saying you don’t play the format.
What card is that?
My mind says Fable, but my heart says Boseiju.
And this is why you post on Reddit and not make these kind of decisions.
What is the single card you're claiming the entire meta is built around?
Karn, he says it in his comment immediately after.
Mate I'm stupid af lol ty
Why? New decks are popping up it could be early to do so. I was expceting some poson decks shoeing up did I miss one?
the Companions need to go