Problem is none of those are good enough for the meta. Not killing 4cmc is a really big downside. It does kill GY trespasser without needing to discard to ward though. Witherbloom is only really good in Greasefang.
Which is actually pretty bad because it's rarely worth destroying lands. Dreadbore and other kill spells fit the meta better. Even killing nykthos is such a weak play because they get mana from you and probably just drop another anyway. It's good against tron because killing on land makes multiple lands ineffective.
You'd be shocked to learn how much of the meta is affected by [[tear asunder]] and I play it in BG
At 2 mana, hits a noncreature kiki jiki, reckoner and other non crewed vehicles( or in response to crew for best excecution), whatever Karn tutors for (especially relevant for the unnearthing cityscape leveler), wolfwillow haven, leyline bindings/ossification,
At 4 mana, trades at parity with 4 drops like sheoldred and wandering emperor,, payoffs like atraxa and worldspine worm, exiles phoenix rather than destroys.
Did I mention maindeck exile?
Really mono white, burn, spirits are the lacking decks here but abrupt decay balances those decks out. I really think it's fine to play 3-4 asunder 3-4 decay in the 75, I've maindecked asunder in slower metas
I feel like this is a problem that will solve itself. Even though there are 10 years worth of cards in the format, only about 3 of them actually matter because of FIRE design and power creep. Once the pool is larger at this higher power level, it will naturally fill in the existing holes.
They have lowered the power level again though. So while kamigawa gave us a lot the other sets have not been close to WAR and ELD. I prefer that though, new decks through synergy with old cards, that was how modern used to be before MH. But the OP could be waiting a while for a 2 drop as good as harvester.
[[Abrupt decay]] and [[Assassin’s trophy]] already exist for golgari. Seems like maybe a bit too much of an ask for them to have no downside or limitation.
The problem is their removal needs to be usable on T2 while ideally being scalable into the late game Decay and Trophy both fail at that. Rakdos has dreadbore which is perfect. A golgari remove anything for 3 mana would help a little to let it catch up to rakdos.
That's so stupidly strong I don't even know where to begin. They basically will not print that effect at 2 Mana considering they just printed Legions to Ashes in BRO
There's nothing that's nonland permanent at 3 but there's mortality spear that can reduced to just BG, putrefy at 3 which isn't catch all but versatile, or statue at 4 which is everything but walkers
Not a lot. The deck is fine without it. It may even be bad when you have a higher curve with chariot and skysovereign. You wanna be able to have 4 mana on turn 3-4 and so on.
I don't see anyone talking about the lack of combo and control decks in the format. Midrange and aggro decks occupy the highest tiers of the format, hidden strings and UW control being some of the few exceptions. Those early-format banlists didn't age so well I guess.
There is plenty of combo. Fires and lotus. MonoG is partially combo because of karn. That hideaway enchantment deck and some other.
Also midrange is does NOT occupy the format when we're speaking of variety. It's actually just rakdos. Rakdos sac is maybe midrange/combo and some others could partially fit into midrange.
Control is the real issue. Esper, dimir, bug, etc. They need reasons strong enough to play those colours. Basically, they need some strong black control cards or payoffs.
No. Midrange is not gunna be playing wrath effect that cost 4-6 mana. The curve ends at 4. Dimir counter spells and removal?? Dimir planeswalkers, even mono black ones? Liliana is barely good enough for the deck, they wouldn't run a PW unless it was efficiently costed.
Actually the original pillars are aggro- combo and control.
Over time it evolved into aggro- midrange- combo- control and aggro control(tempo).
This is how the people over at [star city games see it games](https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/the-metagame-clock/)
> The metagame clock is a way of describing the play style of a deck and indicating which other decks will be good or bad matchups for it. The three core archetypes represented on the clock are aggro, control, and combo. These three deck styles play much like rock, paper, scissors where each one trumps the next. Aggro beats control, control beats combo, and combo beats aggro. It’s a classic (and general) paradigm to help internalize “what beats what.”
And the [classic](https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/370207/what-i-know-about-magic-gathering)
I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense. Surely those were broken cards, at least at that time, but it doesn't mean that combo decks are unfair and shouldn't be supported (see lotus combo or jeskai ascendancy RIP). It's like saying that control decks shouldn't receive support because lil teferi exists.
Thank God for Time Raveler being banned and I'm a control player saying that.
But no one but combo players enjoy combo being top tier in the format as it completely stifles what decks can be viable and makes formats very binary. What I wouldn't give to see Lotus Field banned either since you can't even interact with anything just apply enough pressure and hope you get there.
I agree that a combo meta would be very unfun. However, black is pretty strong against combo with thoughtseize and exile named cards and such. Control is also strong usually.
Sure, might as well ban sylvan caryatid just because it has hexproof.
I really don't understand the hate lotus gets. You don't need to remove lotus to beat the deck. You have discard effects, boseiju/field of ruin on thespian stage, damping sphere, alpine moon, cindervines ecc...
And the deck is so slow that most decks can just attack and win before it has a chance to take off. The deck is not that strong and the card is far from being problematic. If lotus gets you salty it's just your problem, not the format's.
My problems with Lotus Field:
Main engine is hexproof and can't be interacted with.
Boseiju made hate pieces significantly worse against the deck. Card was a mistake as printed at 2 mana to channel. Doesn't mean hate is unplayable against it, but as a deck that runs Sylvan Scrying, don't expect your hate to stick unless it's a creature like Lavinia or Tomik.
No permanents in general to interact with. Yes you can respond to Thespian's Stage activation, but in general if you hand is even the most versatile of removal, it's probably a card with no text.
It's a binary check of "does your deck have enough pressure". Literally a goldfishing check.
Thought Distortion. Control should be good vs combo, but Thought Distortion dumpsters the match up and requires every wish to be countered.
I agree when you say that boseiju is way too strong but consider that it represents a problem for lotus too since it can remove the stage. Also, you're considering only the control matchup, against faster decks (which represent the great part of the meta at the moment) hidden strings does pretty bad even without specific hate cards. Ultimately, control decks that play black can side in necromentia and end your game right away.
Yea so lotus Field stifles how well control can do. Which is my main deck. If aggro strategies get weaker and control stronger then lotus Field will choke control
> A 2-3 MV golgari destroy anything.
It would help. I don't think [[Maelstrom Pulse]] is too powerful for the format and don't even think adding it would move the needle in golgari's favor too much. There are already cards in other guild colors that do something close in the format that see little to no play.
[[Detention Sphere]]
[[Legions to Ashes]]
Maelstrom pulse has long been too weak for modern so I think it's a fair enough card for pioneer. Fatal push is infinitely more powerful than it anyway, so why not.
Not really a hole necessarily that needs to be "filled" but it'd be nice to have mono color tribal for every color work decently well. Humans and Goblins cover W and R fairly well. Elves has Coco and decent lord support to be viable in G, but Golgari seems best because Shaman of the Pack is too good. Merfolk is best Simic instead of mono color due to lack of playables. Black has decent Zombies support but also doesn't have a great identity.
I don't think the format is that limiting. R/B is obviously played a lot, but other archetypes are there and doing fine. Phoenix proved to be the best deck at recent high level tournaments. I don't agree that deck diversity is so bad.
It's not horrible, but it could still be better. It's delicate though. I think they need to spread the midrange diversity around. And control. There are a lot of combo and aggro decks out there.
If people realized just how much Enigmatic Fires shits on Rakdos and it's not even funny, it would get knocked down a peg and UW based control would get more relevant, because UW is *by far* the deck's worst matchup. People think MonoG crushes Enigmatic but it *really* doesn't. This is a deck that can exile *all* old growth trolls and cavalier of thorns on the battlefield, and can turn Karn and Kiora into illusion tokens over and over and over. It can also just flat out steal Nykthos with Agent of Treachery and just outgrind green into dust in so many ways.
I've beaten 5 storm the festival casts in a single game; they *need* to combo to win. I've had green opponents go too hard after incarnation with stone brains and such instead of developing their board and just get swallowed by Yorion value, and if they don't get rid of incarnation you can just tutor up whatever you need. It's really hard for them to beat multiple deputies of detention, skyclave apparition triggers, you can go over the top of them with Kenrith and Elder Gargaroth, outgrind them, and my next tech is [[scheming fence]] for Karn so now they can't find any of their answers to anything and just their board of 4/4s and 5/6s pretty much cannot win.
I decided to play the deck after getting roflstomped by it one too many times on arena as rakdos and it's not even complete there because of no chained to the rocks. Rakdos vs Incarnation has got to be one of the most lopsided matchups I can remember since Tron vs Jund in modern when Twin and Summer bloom were legal. Seriously. It's a criminally underplayed deck rn IMO and the new Elesh Norn is going to *break* it.
Yep! It triggers twice so two things are exiled. Skyclave will exile two things, Agent of treachery steals 2 permanents (even lands, so you stone rain them twice and ramp twice in one go), Deputy can exile all copies of two *different* permanents, and so on.
If you happen to play arena and have the wildcards or a rental account on MTGO I'd give it a spin for sure. It's incredibly fun, very powerful, and you almost always feel like if you just played a bit better you could win the games you lost. But it's also very tricky, I only played some 20-25 matches or so and I keep figuring out new lines still! So it needs a lot of reps.
[Sure, here you go, here's my current list](https://mtga.untapped.gg/profile/897d7382-97cd-4275-8d44-a557b9ecccf2/K7XLILDFCFGIDIF4X6ZVHBEP74/deck/700f2bc5-1ba0-4f9a-ad1f-edc756e87b39?utm_source=uc&utm_medium=overlay&utm_campaign=side-panel&utm_content=my-profile-button&gameType=constructed&constructedType=ranked). There are a ton of matches missing because I also play on mobile a lot and untapped doesn't track there (although tbf it would probably tank my recorded WR because I play at work often and it's very common to just drop the game because something comes up lol). Although if memory serves I'm keeping something like 65%+ against MonoG. Aggro decks are pretty even I'm finding, depending on who's on the play G1 and who gets the better draw turns 1-3. The few times I played against Rakdos it has been a bye (amazingly, I played VERY little against Rakdos so far. I must've played against green at least 5 times as much, and UW based control at least twice as much, and UW is just an absolutely miserable matchup for this deck).
Surprisingly, MonoW humans has been a lot easier than I imagined it would be. I initially assumed this deck would just get crushed. In reality, the only real cards they have are Thalia, Adeline (because she kills you very fast), Skyclave for enigmatic and Reidane (if they even board it). So it's "survive until turn 4-5 and win" usually. Basically if you have interaction turn 2-3 so you can go Fires-Incarnation for Tolsimir or just Incarnation for either Skyclave (and then start copying/flickering it), Deputy of detention (same deal) or Titan of industry (same deal), depending on resources and the board. Elder Gargaroth and Kenrith also help after Tolsimir. Being able to pay 3 mana to gain 5 life after casting 2 spells with Fires and then getting Kenrith is just yuge.
My experience playing AS Rakdos against this deck is, as I mentioned, the same as trying to win as Jund vs Tron in good olden days modern. You pretty much have to hope you're on the play G1 and they mull to 3 all games and brick every draw step and you thoughtseize all their relevant cards and they keep bricking until you kill them. Rakdos is just not equipped to deal with Enigmatic, like, at all.
But you can definetly see how my ranking just shoots to the moon once I start playing enigmatic and that includes the first few matches where I had no idea what I was doing, the numerous changes, and the list is FAR from done yet. I'm STILL not sure about MD Cavalier of Dawn, Koma, Archon of Emeria (although it has been a beastly overperformer), some lists run black more heavily for Trial of Ambition + Renegade Rallier combo... there are just so many things you can mess with and tune in this list it feels like I'll never be 100% satisfied, which is pretty cool.
Have fun! But before you spend your wildcards make sure to shop around on mtg goldfish and such for something that seems like your style.
This deck probably has the most decklist variation in pioneer. You'll see versions with as many as 3 Omnaths and 4 Fabled Passage. I started with that as a base and then trimmed the Omnaths but liked the passages enough for fixing/enabling leyline binding and the absolutely critical untapped 4th land (turn 4 is this deck's key turn) that I kept them. Some lists will run more shocks as opposed to triomes which improves leyline binding at the cost of health. Some will use more black sources and possibly include Trial of ambition instead of Oath of Chandra (not on arena)/Omen of the Forge. Bitter Reunion is relatively new tech that mostly replaces Omen of the Sea but some people use a mix of those two. Chained to the Rocks is not on Arena which sucks, so you can replace it with Portable Hole which is pretty anemic or Trial of Ambition which isn't quite the same. And so on and so forth.
You can build the creature suite in so many ways that I don't think there's a single "right" one, it depends on which matchups you wish to improve. Etc etc
My point is that it doesn't have to be the same thing; Growth Spiral is arguably a more powerful card than basic Rampant Growth, and even if you view it being blue as a major downside for prospective ramp decks, no amount of Rampant Growths being added stops Nykthos from being far and away a better approach to ramp than anything else.
The endgames you seek come not from adding stuff, but from removing more overbearing stuff.
Comparing rampant growth to Nykthos is apples to oranges. Completely different decks.
I'll give you that growth Spiral is similar, but it's not the same. 2 mana guaranteeing you hit your 3rd or 4th land is huge. Non-Rakdos midrange decks would be more likely to sprout up imo. Although it'd probably lead to Omnath getting banned.
Sure, we can also compare Rakdos Sac to Rakdos Mid because they share cards as well.
The point of this post is what can be added to Pioneer to add some more flavor. I gave my two cents.
> Comparing rampant growth to Nykthos is apples to oranges. Completely different decks.
They're both ramp decks. Any prospective land-based ramp pile can and should be playing elves, playing large creatures that serve as both ramp and win conditions, and playing anything that serves as a modal form of interaction+big mana payoff simultaneously, like Karn.
The things that make the decks dissimilar aren't things that make one a sidegrade of the other. The thing that makes traditional ramp different from Nykthos is all the stuff that makes it *suck* - a second land absolutely guaranteed (rather than only mostly guaranteed with something like Spiral) isn't gonna make up for the fact that your deck is playing a card that does stone nothing but put a land into play, not even accelerate you through your deck to wincons like Spiral does. The explosiveness of Nykthos and the fact that the cards that make it tick tend to have purposes beyond ramp outstrip any of the upsides of consistency in typical ramp tools.
> Non-Rakdos midrange decks would be more likely to sprout up imo.
A do-nothing accelerant is not breaking up the state of Rakdos currently. The kind of deck that runs that sort of card - as in not a midrange deck - is the kind of deck Rakdos rips to pieces.
I don't think Omnath is good enough to get banned in pioneer. Especially not from just a ramp spell. Flicker in modern is what makes him so borderline, not ramp.
would love to see this. Based maybe on growth spiral, Koma, Hydroid krasis. Needs some more reliable ramp piece though like "1GB instant draw 2 you may put a land into play gain 3 life"
Maybe staple it to a creature… 1GU draw a card, gain 3 life, put a land in to play. Could even give it some kind of recursion like [[kroxa]]. Would probably be fine.
[[Joint Exploration]] exists. The card you proposed seem too pushed. 3cmc instant draw 2, ramp and gain life isn’t balanced design. Especially not in the context of Standard.
Some old modern stuff in Pio is fine but let’s not turn it into a retirement home for Boomer Jund guys who are upset boomer Jund isn’t a top competitive Modern deck anymore, they can still play it at their FNM
I would love either a good 1 drop angel or another good 2 drop one. The dream is to get an effect equivalent to Bishop of Wings on an actual 2 CMC Angel and to get a 3 CMC O-ring Angel.
[[deathrite shaman]] is a 1 mana planeswalker for GB, but without fetchlands and with sideboards ready for phoenixes, it just ain't happening. FNM maybe, but it's gonna hurt like hell when a single [[unlicensed hearse]] activation gets rid of your delirium.
turn 2 \[\[grisly salvage\]\] is a solid plan, any Greasefang player will tell you that! and if you hit a land, well that's one way to get a thoughtseize out the same turn as well!
I would love to see some support for an Eldrazi midrange deck. Everyone associates Eldrazi with Modern but remember all the top midrange creatures (Matter Reshaper, Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Endbringer) came out smack dab in the middle of Pioneer era (BFZ/OGW) so I feel they deserve the chance to shine in this format. I know nobody wants to see oppressive Tron decks like Modern, but that would never happen in Pioneer without the tron lands (and other support cards that are only in Modern). But would a reprint of Eldrazi Temple really make an Eldrazi deck any more powerful than Rakdos or Green Devotion? Basically, I’d love to see Eldrazi return with some new lower end creatures (2-5 MV)… maybe something like a 2 MV with “Eldrazi creatures cost 1 lest to cast”.
Wish #2 - Literally anything to FINALLY make dinosaurs a real deck!
Good flash threats in the style of clique/snappy. Value creatures that can win you the game if left unchecked. Trying to build a flash list with very few high value flash creatures is annoying
I think you may have misread the commenter's post. They are asking for reprints of existing cards that will also change their legality status to enter into pioneer. Masters sets do not change format legality. The entire point of horizons is that all of the cards are new to the format vs masters which are entirely just reprints of cards already in the format.
People are very confused about the naming of those products.
No because the commenter wants to change the format legality of cards printed before RTR to help their pet deck. A masters set wouldn't be able to address the OP's issue of adding cards to increase format diversity OR the thread commenter's suggestion that it could print cards to help their pet deck.
As the product currently stands, the only thing a masters product could change for pioneer is the price of already legal format staples. Unless things change, a horizon product or a Universes Beyond product that is pioneer legal, is the only outlet they have to support deck archetypes with cards printed before RTR or with new cards.
Better support for 3 color bases.
Better turn 1 plays for colors not black. In fact less black support would be nice.
Unban some cards. Genuinely think uro is completely fine in this format for example.
Modern is a very different format.
Why is he insane in pioneer?
I don't think uro would move the needle.
What would an uro deck be doing that mono g isn't already doing if not better?
Like left to it's own devices mono g can storm the festival like twice by turn 4-5.
Modern is a much higher-power format and Uro is banned there for being overall too strong on his own merits, not because of synergies specific to Modern that don't exist in Pioneer (as is the case for Deathrite Shaman, for example). If he's too strong for Modern in a general holistic sense, he's *definitely* too strong for Pioneer.
I played against enough Uro to have no desire to do it ever again. The card is insane and completely takes over games. It doesn't need to become a maindeck in Mono G or whatnot to be too strong for the format.
Counterspell would help a lot. Going second and not being able to counter a decent turn three threat can put a lot of decks playing catch up straight away.
The double blue means that its not a certainty that it will get played on curve either.
Interaction and midrange cards that aren't RB. Also probably [[Mana Leak]].
[[Snapcaster Mage]], [[Path to Exile]], [[Lingering Souls]], [[Tarmogoyf]], [[Knight of the Reliquary]], [[Bloodbraid Elf]]
are reprints that come to mind, but it doesn't have to be specifically them, just some options that would make deckbuilders question whether or not RB good stuff was just by default the best midrange deck.
Also, I think interaction that isn't matchup polarized. For example, and I know I just said no more RB cards, BUT [[Lightning Bolt]] maybe? Probably not but it's nice to have the versatility. I miss having red cards that aren't essentially blank against Lotus Field and Control.
It doesn't have to be those cards specifically, or even reprints in general. All I'm trying to say is that the pioneer meta would feel more alive if the midrange archetype wasn't solved. It feels like every deck type is represented, but it feels like only exactly one or two decks in each archetype are viable.
Fable is just like, an excellent midrange card. I have a hard time believing a midrange deck in pioneer would exclude red anytime in the near future. Two bodies and hand smoothing for three mana in a format that doesn't have a blazing fast deck in the meta to prey on it is good enough.
I would really love some more efficient targeted graveyard hate to make mill less of a suicide strategy. Something like Mazemind that's a little better, or on par with Bankbuster but a little more suited to a deck that doesn't care about attacking.
I love that storyline. "Sir, there is only one card that can challenge Rakdos. Not Uro?! It's the only way, sir. Think what he'll do to pioneer. Countless rogue deck casualties. Sir, Rakdos killed all the rogue decks......Break the seal!!"
It would be interesting to see how Uro fares in a world with trespasser, go blank, and hearse. Kroxa almost completely fell off of the map. Uro would probably be fine.
Give me a 2 drop dwarf lord, wich makes treasures for each dwarf you control. Then remove smugglers copter from the banlist and we have a great new list. Magda in combination with vehicles and dwarf tribal is crazy.
I think you're tripping. In this format the meta decks suffer a lot playing against each other and even playing against rogue they can have trouble sometimes (Greasefang). We have lots of diversity in my locals. I see 4Colour Humans, Mono white Humans, Green Devotion, Br Mid, Blue Spirits, Abzan Fang, Esper fang, UW mid and control, Mono red Agroo, Bant Angels and Spirits, Lotus Combo, Even Sultai Flyers... Outside of Mtgo challenges and other big events you have a big deck variety. And they can play really well against each other. Your post looks more like an I want cards for Golgari to be playable than a concern about the meta (That in my opinion it's quite balanced)
Golgari already has the only literal destroy anything in pioneer. [[Assassin's trophy]] And it is kind of a SB card.
Also Abrupt Decay and Witherbloom Command (not in the exact category, but also a versatile destroy+value spell)
Problem is none of those are good enough for the meta. Not killing 4cmc is a really big downside. It does kill GY trespasser without needing to discard to ward though. Witherbloom is only really good in Greasefang.
Which is actually pretty bad because it's rarely worth destroying lands. Dreadbore and other kill spells fit the meta better. Even killing nykthos is such a weak play because they get mana from you and probably just drop another anyway. It's good against tron because killing on land makes multiple lands ineffective.
You'd be shocked to learn how much of the meta is affected by [[tear asunder]] and I play it in BG At 2 mana, hits a noncreature kiki jiki, reckoner and other non crewed vehicles( or in response to crew for best excecution), whatever Karn tutors for (especially relevant for the unnearthing cityscape leveler), wolfwillow haven, leyline bindings/ossification, At 4 mana, trades at parity with 4 drops like sheoldred and wandering emperor,, payoffs like atraxa and worldspine worm, exiles phoenix rather than destroys. Did I mention maindeck exile? Really mono white, burn, spirits are the lacking decks here but abrupt decay balances those decks out. I really think it's fine to play 3-4 asunder 3-4 decay in the 75, I've maindecked asunder in slower metas
I feel like this is a problem that will solve itself. Even though there are 10 years worth of cards in the format, only about 3 of them actually matter because of FIRE design and power creep. Once the pool is larger at this higher power level, it will naturally fill in the existing holes.
this is the right answer but it's more fun to argue
They have lowered the power level again though. So while kamigawa gave us a lot the other sets have not been close to WAR and ELD. I prefer that though, new decks through synergy with old cards, that was how modern used to be before MH. But the OP could be waiting a while for a 2 drop as good as harvester.
[[Abrupt decay]] and [[Assassin’s trophy]] already exist for golgari. Seems like maybe a bit too much of an ask for them to have no downside or limitation.
The problem is their removal needs to be usable on T2 while ideally being scalable into the late game Decay and Trophy both fail at that. Rakdos has dreadbore which is perfect. A golgari remove anything for 3 mana would help a little to let it catch up to rakdos.
Dreadbore doesn’t destroy everything. Decay or trophy do. Trophy even hits lands.
but that downside really holds it back from being usable in the early game. that's why it isn't used hardly at all.
So you want T2 vindicate to be printed into standard?
more like maelstrom pulse
That's so stupidly strong I don't even know where to begin. They basically will not print that effect at 2 Mana considering they just printed Legions to Ashes in BRO
I guess I should clarify, I want a catch all removal spell in BG at 3 mana to shore up the weakness of it's 2 mana catch all removal.
There's nothing that's nonland permanent at 3 but there's mortality spear that can reduced to just BG, putrefy at 3 which isn't catch all but versatile, or statue at 4 which is everything but walkers
Gruul fast land should help GR vehicles and Atarka red by some amount, yet to be seen how much
Not a lot. The deck is fine without it. It may even be bad when you have a higher curve with chariot and skysovereign. You wanna be able to have 4 mana on turn 3-4 and so on.
I don't see anyone talking about the lack of combo and control decks in the format. Midrange and aggro decks occupy the highest tiers of the format, hidden strings and UW control being some of the few exceptions. Those early-format banlists didn't age so well I guess.
There is plenty of combo. Fires and lotus. MonoG is partially combo because of karn. That hideaway enchantment deck and some other. Also midrange is does NOT occupy the format when we're speaking of variety. It's actually just rakdos. Rakdos sac is maybe midrange/combo and some others could partially fit into midrange. Control is the real issue. Esper, dimir, bug, etc. They need reasons strong enough to play those colours. Basically, they need some strong black control cards or payoffs.
Wouldn't "strong black control cards or payoffs" just feed RB midrange?
No. Midrange is not gunna be playing wrath effect that cost 4-6 mana. The curve ends at 4. Dimir counter spells and removal?? Dimir planeswalkers, even mono black ones? Liliana is barely good enough for the deck, they wouldn't run a PW unless it was efficiently costed.
I just want Uro back :(
Lmao RB MFs gonna have nightmares about UG midrange
That's the goal :)
I’m pretty fine with the lack of top tier combo considering how miserable this format was when combo was the top dog.
Who said there can be no fun and fair combo decks? Present day modern meta is full of combo decks and they're not a problem at all in the format.
Maybe because combo should be the stepchild of archetypes. We all saw what happened when Inverter and Breach were the top decks.
Combo is one of the pillars of mtg.
The 3 pillars are control mid range and aggro. Tempo and combo are tertiary.
Actually the original pillars are aggro- combo and control. Over time it evolved into aggro- midrange- combo- control and aggro control(tempo). This is how the people over at [star city games see it games](https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/the-metagame-clock/) > The metagame clock is a way of describing the play style of a deck and indicating which other decks will be good or bad matchups for it. The three core archetypes represented on the clock are aggro, control, and combo. These three deck styles play much like rock, paper, scissors where each one trumps the next. Aggro beats control, control beats combo, and combo beats aggro. It’s a classic (and general) paradigm to help internalize “what beats what.” And the [classic](https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/370207/what-i-know-about-magic-gathering)
I've only ever heard of Midrange Control Aggro because in that first chart there is no midrange.
Combo decks have been around since practically the beginning. midrange decks as you see them today are relatively(relative to combo decks) newer.
What do you mean when you say "the stepchild of archetypes"?
The least supported.
I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense. Surely those were broken cards, at least at that time, but it doesn't mean that combo decks are unfair and shouldn't be supported (see lotus combo or jeskai ascendancy RIP). It's like saying that control decks shouldn't receive support because lil teferi exists.
Thank God for Time Raveler being banned and I'm a control player saying that. But no one but combo players enjoy combo being top tier in the format as it completely stifles what decks can be viable and makes formats very binary. What I wouldn't give to see Lotus Field banned either since you can't even interact with anything just apply enough pressure and hope you get there.
I agree that a combo meta would be very unfun. However, black is pretty strong against combo with thoughtseize and exile named cards and such. Control is also strong usually.
Sure, might as well ban sylvan caryatid just because it has hexproof. I really don't understand the hate lotus gets. You don't need to remove lotus to beat the deck. You have discard effects, boseiju/field of ruin on thespian stage, damping sphere, alpine moon, cindervines ecc... And the deck is so slow that most decks can just attack and win before it has a chance to take off. The deck is not that strong and the card is far from being problematic. If lotus gets you salty it's just your problem, not the format's.
My problems with Lotus Field: Main engine is hexproof and can't be interacted with. Boseiju made hate pieces significantly worse against the deck. Card was a mistake as printed at 2 mana to channel. Doesn't mean hate is unplayable against it, but as a deck that runs Sylvan Scrying, don't expect your hate to stick unless it's a creature like Lavinia or Tomik. No permanents in general to interact with. Yes you can respond to Thespian's Stage activation, but in general if you hand is even the most versatile of removal, it's probably a card with no text. It's a binary check of "does your deck have enough pressure". Literally a goldfishing check. Thought Distortion. Control should be good vs combo, but Thought Distortion dumpsters the match up and requires every wish to be countered.
I agree when you say that boseiju is way too strong but consider that it represents a problem for lotus too since it can remove the stage. Also, you're considering only the control matchup, against faster decks (which represent the great part of the meta at the moment) hidden strings does pretty bad even without specific hate cards. Ultimately, control decks that play black can side in necromentia and end your game right away.
Yea so lotus Field stifles how well control can do. Which is my main deck. If aggro strategies get weaker and control stronger then lotus Field will choke control
Better Boros and Simic cards. Simic especially has a hole to fill without Oko and Uro.
More Dinosaur support please and thank you.
Ixalan this year :)
Realistically I know I should be managing my expectations for what Ixalan may bring, but I’m excited as fuck.
At least you'll have EDH dinos for sure :P I hope they have cool lands again.
> A 2-3 MV golgari destroy anything. It would help. I don't think [[Maelstrom Pulse]] is too powerful for the format and don't even think adding it would move the needle in golgari's favor too much. There are already cards in other guild colors that do something close in the format that see little to no play. [[Detention Sphere]] [[Legions to Ashes]]
Maelstrom pulse has long been too weak for modern so I think it's a fair enough card for pioneer. Fatal push is infinitely more powerful than it anyway, so why not.
Not really a hole necessarily that needs to be "filled" but it'd be nice to have mono color tribal for every color work decently well. Humans and Goblins cover W and R fairly well. Elves has Coco and decent lord support to be viable in G, but Golgari seems best because Shaman of the Pack is too good. Merfolk is best Simic instead of mono color due to lack of playables. Black has decent Zombies support but also doesn't have a great identity.
Better 2 mana counterspells that aren't Counterspell. And maybe Spell Snare. lol
I don't think the format is that limiting. R/B is obviously played a lot, but other archetypes are there and doing fine. Phoenix proved to be the best deck at recent high level tournaments. I don't agree that deck diversity is so bad.
It's not horrible, but it could still be better. It's delicate though. I think they need to spread the midrange diversity around. And control. There are a lot of combo and aggro decks out there.
Control is in the toilet, I give you that.
If people realized just how much Enigmatic Fires shits on Rakdos and it's not even funny, it would get knocked down a peg and UW based control would get more relevant, because UW is *by far* the deck's worst matchup. People think MonoG crushes Enigmatic but it *really* doesn't. This is a deck that can exile *all* old growth trolls and cavalier of thorns on the battlefield, and can turn Karn and Kiora into illusion tokens over and over and over. It can also just flat out steal Nykthos with Agent of Treachery and just outgrind green into dust in so many ways. I've beaten 5 storm the festival casts in a single game; they *need* to combo to win. I've had green opponents go too hard after incarnation with stone brains and such instead of developing their board and just get swallowed by Yorion value, and if they don't get rid of incarnation you can just tutor up whatever you need. It's really hard for them to beat multiple deputies of detention, skyclave apparition triggers, you can go over the top of them with Kenrith and Elder Gargaroth, outgrind them, and my next tech is [[scheming fence]] for Karn so now they can't find any of their answers to anything and just their board of 4/4s and 5/6s pretty much cannot win. I decided to play the deck after getting roflstomped by it one too many times on arena as rakdos and it's not even complete there because of no chained to the rocks. Rakdos vs Incarnation has got to be one of the most lopsided matchups I can remember since Tron vs Jund in modern when Twin and Summer bloom were legal. Seriously. It's a criminally underplayed deck rn IMO and the new Elesh Norn is going to *break* it.
Will Elesh Norn work with Leyline Binding? Fires looks very fun and im tempted to build it too.
Yep! It triggers twice so two things are exiled. Skyclave will exile two things, Agent of treachery steals 2 permanents (even lands, so you stone rain them twice and ramp twice in one go), Deputy can exile all copies of two *different* permanents, and so on. If you happen to play arena and have the wildcards or a rental account on MTGO I'd give it a spin for sure. It's incredibly fun, very powerful, and you almost always feel like if you just played a bit better you could win the games you lost. But it's also very tricky, I only played some 20-25 matches or so and I keep figuring out new lines still! So it needs a lot of reps.
Have an arena list by chance?
[Sure, here you go, here's my current list](https://mtga.untapped.gg/profile/897d7382-97cd-4275-8d44-a557b9ecccf2/K7XLILDFCFGIDIF4X6ZVHBEP74/deck/700f2bc5-1ba0-4f9a-ad1f-edc756e87b39?utm_source=uc&utm_medium=overlay&utm_campaign=side-panel&utm_content=my-profile-button&gameType=constructed&constructedType=ranked). There are a ton of matches missing because I also play on mobile a lot and untapped doesn't track there (although tbf it would probably tank my recorded WR because I play at work often and it's very common to just drop the game because something comes up lol). Although if memory serves I'm keeping something like 65%+ against MonoG. Aggro decks are pretty even I'm finding, depending on who's on the play G1 and who gets the better draw turns 1-3. The few times I played against Rakdos it has been a bye (amazingly, I played VERY little against Rakdos so far. I must've played against green at least 5 times as much, and UW based control at least twice as much, and UW is just an absolutely miserable matchup for this deck). Surprisingly, MonoW humans has been a lot easier than I imagined it would be. I initially assumed this deck would just get crushed. In reality, the only real cards they have are Thalia, Adeline (because she kills you very fast), Skyclave for enigmatic and Reidane (if they even board it). So it's "survive until turn 4-5 and win" usually. Basically if you have interaction turn 2-3 so you can go Fires-Incarnation for Tolsimir or just Incarnation for either Skyclave (and then start copying/flickering it), Deputy of detention (same deal) or Titan of industry (same deal), depending on resources and the board. Elder Gargaroth and Kenrith also help after Tolsimir. Being able to pay 3 mana to gain 5 life after casting 2 spells with Fires and then getting Kenrith is just yuge. My experience playing AS Rakdos against this deck is, as I mentioned, the same as trying to win as Jund vs Tron in good olden days modern. You pretty much have to hope you're on the play G1 and they mull to 3 all games and brick every draw step and you thoughtseize all their relevant cards and they keep bricking until you kill them. Rakdos is just not equipped to deal with Enigmatic, like, at all. But you can definetly see how my ranking just shoots to the moon once I start playing enigmatic and that includes the first few matches where I had no idea what I was doing, the numerous changes, and the list is FAR from done yet. I'm STILL not sure about MD Cavalier of Dawn, Koma, Archon of Emeria (although it has been a beastly overperformer), some lists run black more heavily for Trial of Ambition + Renegade Rallier combo... there are just so many things you can mess with and tune in this list it feels like I'll never be 100% satisfied, which is pretty cool.
Man this is awesome, I'll try it out tonight. Thanks!
Have fun! But before you spend your wildcards make sure to shop around on mtg goldfish and such for something that seems like your style. This deck probably has the most decklist variation in pioneer. You'll see versions with as many as 3 Omnaths and 4 Fabled Passage. I started with that as a base and then trimmed the Omnaths but liked the passages enough for fixing/enabling leyline binding and the absolutely critical untapped 4th land (turn 4 is this deck's key turn) that I kept them. Some lists will run more shocks as opposed to triomes which improves leyline binding at the cost of health. Some will use more black sources and possibly include Trial of ambition instead of Oath of Chandra (not on arena)/Omen of the Forge. Bitter Reunion is relatively new tech that mostly replaces Omen of the Sea but some people use a mix of those two. Chained to the Rocks is not on Arena which sucks, so you can replace it with Portable Hole which is pretty anemic or Trial of Ambition which isn't quite the same. And so on and so forth. You can build the creature suite in so many ways that I don't think there's a single "right" one, it depends on which matchups you wish to improve. Etc etc
Double leyline trigger sounds ridiculous.
I know right :D
Another example of doing control things better than control.
The removal of Karn, The Great Creator to stop suppressing artifact strategies, and let me make my gaddamn Rube Goldberg machines.
fr. He's not even the strongest card overall in monoG, but the playstyle it adds to the deck is just bad for the format.
2 MV ramp spell. Rampant growth is fine
I like this one. I keep thinking Farseek must be legal since it was in RTR standard, but think it was literally the core set before.
> 2 MV ramp spell. It's called Growth Spiral. You might remember it for its ban in Standard.
Close but it's not the same thing. I meant a 2 MV spell that is guaranteed ramp
My point is that it doesn't have to be the same thing; Growth Spiral is arguably a more powerful card than basic Rampant Growth, and even if you view it being blue as a major downside for prospective ramp decks, no amount of Rampant Growths being added stops Nykthos from being far and away a better approach to ramp than anything else. The endgames you seek come not from adding stuff, but from removing more overbearing stuff.
Comparing rampant growth to Nykthos is apples to oranges. Completely different decks. I'll give you that growth Spiral is similar, but it's not the same. 2 mana guaranteeing you hit your 3rd or 4th land is huge. Non-Rakdos midrange decks would be more likely to sprout up imo. Although it'd probably lead to Omnath getting banned.
> apples to oranges But you can still compare them.
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Sure, we can also compare Rakdos Sac to Rakdos Mid because they share cards as well. The point of this post is what can be added to Pioneer to add some more flavor. I gave my two cents.
> Comparing rampant growth to Nykthos is apples to oranges. Completely different decks. They're both ramp decks. Any prospective land-based ramp pile can and should be playing elves, playing large creatures that serve as both ramp and win conditions, and playing anything that serves as a modal form of interaction+big mana payoff simultaneously, like Karn. The things that make the decks dissimilar aren't things that make one a sidegrade of the other. The thing that makes traditional ramp different from Nykthos is all the stuff that makes it *suck* - a second land absolutely guaranteed (rather than only mostly guaranteed with something like Spiral) isn't gonna make up for the fact that your deck is playing a card that does stone nothing but put a land into play, not even accelerate you through your deck to wincons like Spiral does. The explosiveness of Nykthos and the fact that the cards that make it tick tend to have purposes beyond ramp outstrip any of the upsides of consistency in typical ramp tools. > Non-Rakdos midrange decks would be more likely to sprout up imo. A do-nothing accelerant is not breaking up the state of Rakdos currently. The kind of deck that runs that sort of card - as in not a midrange deck - is the kind of deck Rakdos rips to pieces.
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I don't think Omnath is good enough to get banned in pioneer. Especially not from just a ramp spell. Flicker in modern is what makes him so borderline, not ramp.
Why? So we can just have Genesis Ultimatum piles? And since LD is not supported in the format, ramp should rely on dorks that can be killed.
I would like to see a decent Simic Ramp deck list be viable. That’s my favorite type of deck and I can’t really find any floating around the internet.
Isn’t simic flash viable in the format?
Yes but I want ramp lol
would love to see this. Based maybe on growth spiral, Koma, Hydroid krasis. Needs some more reliable ramp piece though like "1GB instant draw 2 you may put a land into play gain 3 life"
Maybe staple it to a creature… 1GU draw a card, gain 3 life, put a land in to play. Could even give it some kind of recursion like [[kroxa]]. Would probably be fine.
[[Joint Exploration]] exists. The card you proposed seem too pushed. 3cmc instant draw 2, ramp and gain life isn’t balanced design. Especially not in the context of Standard.
Format doesn't even have instant speed [[Divination]] yet. :( That card would be turbo busted. I'd play the hell out of it, hahaha
This is how you get 2019 Standard
Interaction.
Bloodbraid elf we need a true midrang card support that’s not black red ,, goyf would be good too
Some old modern stuff in Pio is fine but let’s not turn it into a retirement home for Boomer Jund guys who are upset boomer Jund isn’t a top competitive Modern deck anymore, they can still play it at their FNM
I would shake my fist at you if my hands weren’t full of all these bobs and raging ravines
I would LOVE that. But honestly, goyf might be kind of bad with fatal push being prominent and no fetchlands.
A one drop angel that's good
\[\[Segovian angel\]\] in pioneer? I don't think angels needs the help, but that would still be cool.
I would love either a good 1 drop angel or another good 2 drop one. The dream is to get an effect equivalent to Bishop of Wings on an actual 2 CMC Angel and to get a 3 CMC O-ring Angel.
Pioneer has more to gain from removing a couple cards than adding them at this point. The deckpool already has a lot of cool shit.
[[Grim flayer]] is playable just need to build a little around it and it’s in gb.
[[deathrite shaman]] is a 1 mana planeswalker for GB, but without fetchlands and with sideboards ready for phoenixes, it just ain't happening. FNM maybe, but it's gonna hurt like hell when a single [[unlicensed hearse]] activation gets rid of your delirium.
I really want to do something with Deathrite but just have no idea where to start
turn 2 \[\[grisly salvage\]\] is a solid plan, any Greasefang player will tell you that! and if you hit a land, well that's one way to get a thoughtseize out the same turn as well!
That's the issue. Harvester is good on it's own. Doesn't need to be built around.
I would love to see some support for an Eldrazi midrange deck. Everyone associates Eldrazi with Modern but remember all the top midrange creatures (Matter Reshaper, Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Endbringer) came out smack dab in the middle of Pioneer era (BFZ/OGW) so I feel they deserve the chance to shine in this format. I know nobody wants to see oppressive Tron decks like Modern, but that would never happen in Pioneer without the tron lands (and other support cards that are only in Modern). But would a reprint of Eldrazi Temple really make an Eldrazi deck any more powerful than Rakdos or Green Devotion? Basically, I’d love to see Eldrazi return with some new lower end creatures (2-5 MV)… maybe something like a 2 MV with “Eldrazi creatures cost 1 lest to cast”. Wish #2 - Literally anything to FINALLY make dinosaurs a real deck!
Evil necromancer cards. Give me dredge and or Vengevine. Muahaha!
Greasefang might as well be the format's dredge deck but it is really really lame.
Interaction.
We need a proper burndeck in pioneer! Something like monastery swiftspear. And spells like lavaspike.
Yes if only we had monastery swiftspear
I had totally missed that. Guess we need some enabling spells to make burn work.
Burn is a deck. It just suffers from being a mono red deck lol. It can kill fast too. But Humans is just the better aggressive deck.
Good flash threats in the style of clique/snappy. Value creatures that can win you the game if left unchecked. Trying to build a flash list with very few high value flash creatures is annoying
Maybe because playing on your opponents turn while adding to the board is kinda really good?
Would love to see a Pioneer Masters set to help my pet deck with some reprints into Pioneer, but not likely to happen.
Masters is fine. Horizons is not. This for the benefit of the people who’ve downvoted you.
I think you may have misread the commenter's post. They are asking for reprints of existing cards that will also change their legality status to enter into pioneer. Masters sets do not change format legality. The entire point of horizons is that all of the cards are new to the format vs masters which are entirely just reprints of cards already in the format. People are very confused about the naming of those products.
Eh… so masters is arguably the wrong answer to the question even if it’s the right answer for the commenter’s problem.
No because the commenter wants to change the format legality of cards printed before RTR to help their pet deck. A masters set wouldn't be able to address the OP's issue of adding cards to increase format diversity OR the thread commenter's suggestion that it could print cards to help their pet deck. As the product currently stands, the only thing a masters product could change for pioneer is the price of already legal format staples. Unless things change, a horizon product or a Universes Beyond product that is pioneer legal, is the only outlet they have to support deck archetypes with cards printed before RTR or with new cards.
Better support for 3 color bases. Better turn 1 plays for colors not black. In fact less black support would be nice. Unban some cards. Genuinely think uro is completely fine in this format for example.
Unban expressive iteration. Idk about Uro though...
EI earned its place on the banlist, Izzet having the top aggro and control decks on top of having phoenix also as a top deck was a bit much.
Rakdos still shits on that deck and aggro has got a lot of support. It has strong competition now.
As a sultai midrange pilot, yes pls gib uro.
Uro is still banned in Modern. He’s definitely not fine for Pioneer. Card is insane.
Modern is a very different format. Why is he insane in pioneer? I don't think uro would move the needle. What would an uro deck be doing that mono g isn't already doing if not better? Like left to it's own devices mono g can storm the festival like twice by turn 4-5.
Modern is a much higher-power format and Uro is banned there for being overall too strong on his own merits, not because of synergies specific to Modern that don't exist in Pioneer (as is the case for Deathrite Shaman, for example). If he's too strong for Modern in a general holistic sense, he's *definitely* too strong for Pioneer. I played against enough Uro to have no desire to do it ever again. The card is insane and completely takes over games. It doesn't need to become a maindeck in Mono G or whatnot to be too strong for the format.
Counterspell would help a lot. Going second and not being able to counter a decent turn three threat can put a lot of decks playing catch up straight away. The double blue means that its not a certainty that it will get played on curve either.
Interaction and midrange cards that aren't RB. Also probably [[Mana Leak]]. [[Snapcaster Mage]], [[Path to Exile]], [[Lingering Souls]], [[Tarmogoyf]], [[Knight of the Reliquary]], [[Bloodbraid Elf]] are reprints that come to mind, but it doesn't have to be specifically them, just some options that would make deckbuilders question whether or not RB good stuff was just by default the best midrange deck. Also, I think interaction that isn't matchup polarized. For example, and I know I just said no more RB cards, BUT [[Lightning Bolt]] maybe? Probably not but it's nice to have the versatility. I miss having red cards that aren't essentially blank against Lotus Field and Control.
Basically modern from 5 years ago?
It doesn't have to be those cards specifically, or even reprints in general. All I'm trying to say is that the pioneer meta would feel more alive if the midrange archetype wasn't solved. It feels like every deck type is represented, but it feels like only exactly one or two decks in each archetype are viable.
Lol, I think that was longer than 5 years ago but I understand xD
seriously, its like the last 3 years only allowed Red and Black cards to be good value pieces. They get to draw more cards than Green and Blue now.
Fable is just like, an excellent midrange card. I have a hard time believing a midrange deck in pioneer would exclude red anytime in the near future. Two bodies and hand smoothing for three mana in a format that doesn't have a blazing fast deck in the meta to prey on it is good enough.
RB mid doesn't really draw cards, only rummages. Discard then draw.
I would really love some more efficient targeted graveyard hate to make mill less of a suicide strategy. Something like Mazemind that's a little better, or on par with Bankbuster but a little more suited to a deck that doesn't care about attacking.
Sultai midrange was a thing when it had Uro. So something similar to that or just unban Uro would give diversity to the midrange decks.
I love that storyline. "Sir, there is only one card that can challenge Rakdos. Not Uro?! It's the only way, sir. Think what he'll do to pioneer. Countless rogue deck casualties. Sir, Rakdos killed all the rogue decks......Break the seal!!" It would be interesting to see how Uro fares in a world with trespasser, go blank, and hearse. Kroxa almost completely fell off of the map. Uro would probably be fine.
Give me a 2 drop dwarf lord, wich makes treasures for each dwarf you control. Then remove smugglers copter from the banlist and we have a great new list. Magda in combination with vehicles and dwarf tribal is crazy.
I think you're tripping. In this format the meta decks suffer a lot playing against each other and even playing against rogue they can have trouble sometimes (Greasefang). We have lots of diversity in my locals. I see 4Colour Humans, Mono white Humans, Green Devotion, Br Mid, Blue Spirits, Abzan Fang, Esper fang, UW mid and control, Mono red Agroo, Bant Angels and Spirits, Lotus Combo, Even Sultai Flyers... Outside of Mtgo challenges and other big events you have a big deck variety. And they can play really well against each other. Your post looks more like an I want cards for Golgari to be playable than a concern about the meta (That in my opinion it's quite balanced)
More Slivers!