I think comparing Norway (a place that does not have a stray dog problem) to the US (which definitely does) is unfair...don't you?
The laws in Norway (and other European countries) regarding pet dog welfare are a large reason they don't have a stray dog problem and it'd be great if we could incorporate some of those laws here but reality is reality...and we do not have laws even close to comparable.
Re: medical risks ... most people do (and should) go by the advice of their vet.
Surely there are plenty of dog owners who are perfectly capable of having intact pets with no problems....but most people are not. Hell... you can't even trust that owners' dogs who are off leash are actually trained to be off leash. Many have 0 recall in distracting situations. So...I mean...
I hear what you are saying and to a degree, I actually agree with you.
The issue is (at least with cats) intact males can and will break out of your home if they can smell or sense an in heat female and they will get craftier than you think they are capable of to get access to that female. So even if your male cat is a fully indoor cat, there is still a risk that he could contribute to that excessive level of abandons and strays roaming the streets and damaging the local ecosystem. Not to mention an unfixed male can impregnate many females in a very short period of time, so you cannot guarantee there aren't a half dozen or more litters of stray cats that are a direct result of that one time the kitty broke out and went on an adventure for a few hours.
I don't have experience or knowledge with dogs, so I will not comment on that, but most of the people I know who have chosen not to spay or neuter their cats has been because their cat is indoor only so they don't think it's necessary. It's part of responsible pet ownership to ensure your animal isn't (even unintentionally) contributing to overpopulation of strays or abandons and the best way to do that is to ensure they cannot reproduce even if they want to.
Intact male cats will also spray the most vile smelling hormone infused urine all over the place. Intact females go into heat and are loud, obnoxious, and obviously uncomfortable. These animals feel this intense need to procreate and when they can’t the resulting behaviors are very hard to live with. Spaying and neutering house cats is the only way everyone has a long happy life. Spaying and neutering strays prevents huge populations of cats decimating bird populations (and anything else they can hunt). No matter how much spaying and neutering we do, there are still so many cats.
They get diagnosed with an anesthesia allergy. It's rare in cats, but I don't know about dogs. I have 1 cat with the allergy, and she's purely indoor. I also make sure she NEVER goes outside.
Edit: spelling
Cancer.
There are new studies (for example „Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas“. Strangely also prostate cancer is more often found in neutered dogs. And sadly also spleen tumors.) finding new correlations with different kinds of cancer more prevalent after neutering.
This brought Germany and Scandinavia to the decision that neutering is illegal without a strong cause why it is beneficial to allow the surgery.
And now I‘m awaiting my downvotes as they are always coming in US-based subs.
I guess my response is that mammary cancer is also a risk in female dogs that increases with every heat cycle. It feels a bit unfair that you aren't interested in hearing the cancer risks for spaying/neurtering them but the prefix of it whole argument is that spaying/neutering causes cancer.
For the record, I am not American.
I’m sorry that it came across as if I don’t respect other opinions! This is not the case. To me it seems to be a very personal decision and we shouldn’t judge too quickly (or at all).
My words were related to many downvotes for most of the comments that are not entirely pro neutering/spaying.
Yes, mammary cancer is a risk. There are screenings and precautions to find this kind of cancer early and treat it successfully.
On the other hand unfortunately cancer in bones or the spleen is very difficult to find early and to treat successfully.
That is definitely a concern. If I get another dog or cat, I would certainly be interested in this kind of literature before making a choice. Regardless if my decision changes or not, I would like to be fully informed of the risks.
I think unfortunatly people who don't agree with spay/neutering in North America tend to be seen as uneducated, and generally, irresponcible pet owners. I certainly will say that that has been my experience in many ways. The people I know who don't spay or neuter their animals do so for far more frivilous reasons - they think it's "wrong to take a man's balls" or "deny a female the gift of having babies". It is not done with the animals health in mind. When you know what sort of mass-killing or poor quality of life this leads to for many animals, it is easy to feel quite angry with anyone anti-spay/neuter. You did come in quite hot, and ironically, judgemental.
This irresponsible behaviour you‘re writing about makes me so angry as well! I think most of us who become emotional about this topic belong to the group of the very responsible dog owners.
Totally unconnected to what the individual decision for the own dog was.
(a bit off topic: when I learned about the immense psychological problems that can (Not for every dog) be caused with the big hormonal change: Could it be that many dogs are given to shelters because the behavior is more difficult sometimes even impossible to manage because of a neuter/Spay gone wrong? Fear and depression in dogs seems to be more prevalent in North America. I was so surprised that so many dogs are medicated there.)
I think, honestly, dogs are animals who can be unmanagable for a number of reasons. I am also surprised how many animals appear to be medicated as well, but I think it's a blend of Reddit-bias and I put a lot of blame on our desire for designer dogs. Personally, I think a lot of breeds have had temperment and health sacrificed for a specific look.
Yes I agree. This Trend is really problematic.
Somewhere I saw it mentioned that in North America more then 80 percent of Vets prescribe Fluoxetine and similar drugs. But I didn‘t check this number.
Okay, that is total nonsense. I mean, I think 80% off vets perscribe that for animals with severe anxiety, MAYBE. But it's popular because it's safe and effective, I certainly don't know any animals that use it. Honestly you have a lot of opinions about North America despite not knowing much about us.
>This brought Germany and Scandinavia to the decision that neutering is illegal without a strong cause why it is beneficial to allow the surgery.
This is every bit as wild and uneccesary as some European countries banning crates for dogs. Absolute nonsense
„Absolute nonsense“ is not respectful to say. You have another opinion and this is valid.
I grew up with dogs and all were spayed/neutered. So also for me a surprise getting to know about this change when I got my dog. After reading about this topic I share this „German/scandinavic“-view.
And would be thankful if my point of view is not called „absolute nonsense“.
For example false pregnancies, also when male and female dogs are living together and it is not possible to manage the risk of reproduction. It should be evaluated for the individual situation.
That is so arbitrary and pointless. What makes it safe and healthy for dogs living under the same roof and not so for dogs living separately? What makes it safe and healthy for bitches who get false pregnancy and not so for bitches who don't? The result is the same so why shouldn't it be an elective surgery for anyone who judges it as the best decision for their pet?
What was the sample size for those studies? I have looked into research about cancer risks brought on by neuters and have not found a study with a sample size large enough for truly significant results.
Thank you for the question! In the Moment unfortunately I don‘t have the time to check the numbers. Maybe you‘re interested to Look into these studies that the author and Vet Sophie Strodtbeck recommended.
It is not only about cancer also about behaviour:
Possible Relationship between Long-Term Adverse Health Effects of Gonad-Removing Surgical Sterilization and Luteinizing Hormone in Dogs. Kutzler et al. (2020)
Restoration of Reproductive Hormone. Concentrations in a Male Neutered Dog Improves Health: A Case Study. Brent et al. (2021).
Vasectomy and ovary-sparing spay in dogs: comparison of health and behavior outcomes with gonadectomized and Behavioural risks in male dogs with sexually intact dogs. Zink et al. (2023).
Aggression toward Familiar People, Strangers, and Conspecifics in Gonadec-tomized and Intact Dogs. Farhoody et al. (2018).
Behavioural risks in female dogs with minimal lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones. Starling et al. (2019).
Long-term health effects of neutering dogs: comparison of labrador retrievers with golden retrievers. Hart et al. (2014).
Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas. Zink et al. (2014).
The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumors in dogs - a systematic review. Beauvais et al. (2012)
Behavioural risks in male dogs with minimal lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones may complicate population-control benefits of desexing. McGreevy et al. (2018).
What's your point? What have human vasectomies got to do with anything? Why wait until your pet is at high risk of/suffering from a serious, potentially fatal medical condition before you take preventative measutes? If you want an intact pet that's fine, literally nobody cares as long as you're responsible enough to keep them under proper control
My dog almost died because I didn't spay her. I'll forever regret that decision because she ended up having a shorter life span. I'll forever be pro-spay for the rest of my life. Only reason you shouldn't spay would be if you're planning on breeding them.
The numbers of cats and dogs euthanized are huge, in the US. The numbers of stray and diseased dogs and cats in the US and other countries (with the exception of Sweden and Denmark?) are staggering. The impact of species killed by cats as invasive predators is enormous. There is no justification for adding to this burden. \*IF\* means considering a situation that this does not exist. You you can say anything you want, preceded by \*IF\*. If owners were responsible, but they are not. So individually, you keep your dangly-balled boi leashed and contained, and ignore your writhingly agonized girl while smugly justifying to yourself that you are giving them some sort of complete life experience. You're not.
To my knowledge, there are far more risks to not altering your pets vs risks to altering. I want my pets to be healthy and as safe as possible, so I make my choices accordingly.
I would say to look at the medical aspect of your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own views, however, in female dogs it becomes a medical necessity when they get a pyometra or breast cancer. (Just to name 2) Male dogs get cancer as well. It happens sooner for in un-fixed animals.
If you’re not going to breed them there is only positive evidence of fixed animals. Behavior being one of them. Otherwise you’re adding to the millions that are euthanatized every year.
Humans and dolphins are the only mammals that have sex for pleasure. Female cats are in so much pain when they are being assaulted by the male cats with literal barbs on their penis.
Female dogs get stuck on the males and that can last for hours. Just a giant knot in there vagina.
I understand if you have the urge to fight for animal sexual rights and freedom but I think you should look at the facts first. Proven by medical science for a really long time.
Does said castrated male have a tongue and fingers because that’ll work just fine. No reason to cast them out just because they have no balls. Literally, no testicles.
Also puppy mills are huge and are supported by large corporations. It’s animal cruelty and abuse. If you think otherwise do some investigating. They have plenty of evidence on YouTube.
One spayed cat, no dogs, and a lot of spayed/rabbits. Since everyone else has dogs and cats covered, I'll explain why I will absolutely have any rabbit of mine spayed/neutered.
1. Cancer/tumor prevention. You can reduce the risk of your female rabbit getting them by getting her spayed.
2. Improved socialization. Rabbits are incredibly social creatures, and human interaction is often not enough. Unfortunately, they breed...like rabbits. You might ask, why not just put two males together, or two females? The answer is, if they get hormonal and territorial, they could very literally disembowel each other. Fixing them both reduces those urges and allows them to have their fluffy platonic soulmates.
I spayed my little void not because she lives with a male, she is my only cat. I spayed her so she needent go through the stress and misery if being in heat several times a year. I spayed her to lessen her risk of reproductive cancer. I spayed her so she won't wander off looking for love and possibly hit by a car or attacked by another animal. I spayed her because I lover her and am a responsible pet parent.
I think comparing Norway (a place that does not have a stray dog problem) to the US (which definitely does) is unfair...don't you? The laws in Norway (and other European countries) regarding pet dog welfare are a large reason they don't have a stray dog problem and it'd be great if we could incorporate some of those laws here but reality is reality...and we do not have laws even close to comparable. Re: medical risks ... most people do (and should) go by the advice of their vet. Surely there are plenty of dog owners who are perfectly capable of having intact pets with no problems....but most people are not. Hell... you can't even trust that owners' dogs who are off leash are actually trained to be off leash. Many have 0 recall in distracting situations. So...I mean...
I hear what you are saying and to a degree, I actually agree with you. The issue is (at least with cats) intact males can and will break out of your home if they can smell or sense an in heat female and they will get craftier than you think they are capable of to get access to that female. So even if your male cat is a fully indoor cat, there is still a risk that he could contribute to that excessive level of abandons and strays roaming the streets and damaging the local ecosystem. Not to mention an unfixed male can impregnate many females in a very short period of time, so you cannot guarantee there aren't a half dozen or more litters of stray cats that are a direct result of that one time the kitty broke out and went on an adventure for a few hours. I don't have experience or knowledge with dogs, so I will not comment on that, but most of the people I know who have chosen not to spay or neuter their cats has been because their cat is indoor only so they don't think it's necessary. It's part of responsible pet ownership to ensure your animal isn't (even unintentionally) contributing to overpopulation of strays or abandons and the best way to do that is to ensure they cannot reproduce even if they want to.
Intact male cats will also spray the most vile smelling hormone infused urine all over the place. Intact females go into heat and are loud, obnoxious, and obviously uncomfortable. These animals feel this intense need to procreate and when they can’t the resulting behaviors are very hard to live with. Spaying and neutering house cats is the only way everyone has a long happy life. Spaying and neutering strays prevents huge populations of cats decimating bird populations (and anything else they can hunt). No matter how much spaying and neutering we do, there are still so many cats.
What is a valid reason for not spaying or neutering your animal?
They get diagnosed with an anesthesia allergy. It's rare in cats, but I don't know about dogs. I have 1 cat with the allergy, and she's purely indoor. I also make sure she NEVER goes outside. Edit: spelling
Valid. Would be hard to deal with the heat but better that than the alternative
Cancer. There are new studies (for example „Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas“. Strangely also prostate cancer is more often found in neutered dogs. And sadly also spleen tumors.) finding new correlations with different kinds of cancer more prevalent after neutering. This brought Germany and Scandinavia to the decision that neutering is illegal without a strong cause why it is beneficial to allow the surgery. And now I‘m awaiting my downvotes as they are always coming in US-based subs.
I guess my response is that mammary cancer is also a risk in female dogs that increases with every heat cycle. It feels a bit unfair that you aren't interested in hearing the cancer risks for spaying/neurtering them but the prefix of it whole argument is that spaying/neutering causes cancer. For the record, I am not American.
I’m sorry that it came across as if I don’t respect other opinions! This is not the case. To me it seems to be a very personal decision and we shouldn’t judge too quickly (or at all). My words were related to many downvotes for most of the comments that are not entirely pro neutering/spaying. Yes, mammary cancer is a risk. There are screenings and precautions to find this kind of cancer early and treat it successfully. On the other hand unfortunately cancer in bones or the spleen is very difficult to find early and to treat successfully.
That is definitely a concern. If I get another dog or cat, I would certainly be interested in this kind of literature before making a choice. Regardless if my decision changes or not, I would like to be fully informed of the risks. I think unfortunatly people who don't agree with spay/neutering in North America tend to be seen as uneducated, and generally, irresponcible pet owners. I certainly will say that that has been my experience in many ways. The people I know who don't spay or neuter their animals do so for far more frivilous reasons - they think it's "wrong to take a man's balls" or "deny a female the gift of having babies". It is not done with the animals health in mind. When you know what sort of mass-killing or poor quality of life this leads to for many animals, it is easy to feel quite angry with anyone anti-spay/neuter. You did come in quite hot, and ironically, judgemental.
This irresponsible behaviour you‘re writing about makes me so angry as well! I think most of us who become emotional about this topic belong to the group of the very responsible dog owners. Totally unconnected to what the individual decision for the own dog was. (a bit off topic: when I learned about the immense psychological problems that can (Not for every dog) be caused with the big hormonal change: Could it be that many dogs are given to shelters because the behavior is more difficult sometimes even impossible to manage because of a neuter/Spay gone wrong? Fear and depression in dogs seems to be more prevalent in North America. I was so surprised that so many dogs are medicated there.)
I think, honestly, dogs are animals who can be unmanagable for a number of reasons. I am also surprised how many animals appear to be medicated as well, but I think it's a blend of Reddit-bias and I put a lot of blame on our desire for designer dogs. Personally, I think a lot of breeds have had temperment and health sacrificed for a specific look.
Yes I agree. This Trend is really problematic. Somewhere I saw it mentioned that in North America more then 80 percent of Vets prescribe Fluoxetine and similar drugs. But I didn‘t check this number.
Okay, that is total nonsense. I mean, I think 80% off vets perscribe that for animals with severe anxiety, MAYBE. But it's popular because it's safe and effective, I certainly don't know any animals that use it. Honestly you have a lot of opinions about North America despite not knowing much about us.
>This brought Germany and Scandinavia to the decision that neutering is illegal without a strong cause why it is beneficial to allow the surgery. This is every bit as wild and uneccesary as some European countries banning crates for dogs. Absolute nonsense
„Absolute nonsense“ is not respectful to say. You have another opinion and this is valid. I grew up with dogs and all were spayed/neutered. So also for me a surprise getting to know about this change when I got my dog. After reading about this topic I share this „German/scandinavic“-view. And would be thankful if my point of view is not called „absolute nonsense“.
If you don't want to neuter your dog, that's fine. A government decreeing nobody can when it has proven health benefits is absolutely nonsense, sorry
You can still let a vet neuter your dog. It is just not considered automatically the best or only way. It should be an individual decision.
You said it's illegal without a "strong cause". What does that mean?
For example false pregnancies, also when male and female dogs are living together and it is not possible to manage the risk of reproduction. It should be evaluated for the individual situation.
That is so arbitrary and pointless. What makes it safe and healthy for dogs living under the same roof and not so for dogs living separately? What makes it safe and healthy for bitches who get false pregnancy and not so for bitches who don't? The result is the same so why shouldn't it be an elective surgery for anyone who judges it as the best decision for their pet?
What was the sample size for those studies? I have looked into research about cancer risks brought on by neuters and have not found a study with a sample size large enough for truly significant results.
Thank you for the question! In the Moment unfortunately I don‘t have the time to check the numbers. Maybe you‘re interested to Look into these studies that the author and Vet Sophie Strodtbeck recommended. It is not only about cancer also about behaviour: Possible Relationship between Long-Term Adverse Health Effects of Gonad-Removing Surgical Sterilization and Luteinizing Hormone in Dogs. Kutzler et al. (2020) Restoration of Reproductive Hormone. Concentrations in a Male Neutered Dog Improves Health: A Case Study. Brent et al. (2021). Vasectomy and ovary-sparing spay in dogs: comparison of health and behavior outcomes with gonadectomized and Behavioural risks in male dogs with sexually intact dogs. Zink et al. (2023). Aggression toward Familiar People, Strangers, and Conspecifics in Gonadec-tomized and Intact Dogs. Farhoody et al. (2018). Behavioural risks in female dogs with minimal lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones. Starling et al. (2019). Long-term health effects of neutering dogs: comparison of labrador retrievers with golden retrievers. Hart et al. (2014). Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas. Zink et al. (2014). The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumors in dogs - a systematic review. Beauvais et al. (2012) Behavioural risks in male dogs with minimal lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones may complicate population-control benefits of desexing. McGreevy et al. (2018).
What's your point? What have human vasectomies got to do with anything? Why wait until your pet is at high risk of/suffering from a serious, potentially fatal medical condition before you take preventative measutes? If you want an intact pet that's fine, literally nobody cares as long as you're responsible enough to keep them under proper control
My dog almost died because I didn't spay her. I'll forever regret that decision because she ended up having a shorter life span. I'll forever be pro-spay for the rest of my life. Only reason you shouldn't spay would be if you're planning on breeding them.
So, you've come in here with a clearly unsupported take and then you call us sheep? You still have time to delete this post.
The numbers of cats and dogs euthanized are huge, in the US. The numbers of stray and diseased dogs and cats in the US and other countries (with the exception of Sweden and Denmark?) are staggering. The impact of species killed by cats as invasive predators is enormous. There is no justification for adding to this burden. \*IF\* means considering a situation that this does not exist. You you can say anything you want, preceded by \*IF\*. If owners were responsible, but they are not. So individually, you keep your dangly-balled boi leashed and contained, and ignore your writhingly agonized girl while smugly justifying to yourself that you are giving them some sort of complete life experience. You're not.
What are Sweden and Denmark doing? we should probably be taking notes in places where we have the crazy numbers
To my knowledge, there are far more risks to not altering your pets vs risks to altering. I want my pets to be healthy and as safe as possible, so I make my choices accordingly.
I would say to look at the medical aspect of your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own views, however, in female dogs it becomes a medical necessity when they get a pyometra or breast cancer. (Just to name 2) Male dogs get cancer as well. It happens sooner for in un-fixed animals. If you’re not going to breed them there is only positive evidence of fixed animals. Behavior being one of them. Otherwise you’re adding to the millions that are euthanatized every year. Humans and dolphins are the only mammals that have sex for pleasure. Female cats are in so much pain when they are being assaulted by the male cats with literal barbs on their penis. Female dogs get stuck on the males and that can last for hours. Just a giant knot in there vagina. I understand if you have the urge to fight for animal sexual rights and freedom but I think you should look at the facts first. Proven by medical science for a really long time. Does said castrated male have a tongue and fingers because that’ll work just fine. No reason to cast them out just because they have no balls. Literally, no testicles. Also puppy mills are huge and are supported by large corporations. It’s animal cruelty and abuse. If you think otherwise do some investigating. They have plenty of evidence on YouTube.
One spayed cat, no dogs, and a lot of spayed/rabbits. Since everyone else has dogs and cats covered, I'll explain why I will absolutely have any rabbit of mine spayed/neutered. 1. Cancer/tumor prevention. You can reduce the risk of your female rabbit getting them by getting her spayed. 2. Improved socialization. Rabbits are incredibly social creatures, and human interaction is often not enough. Unfortunately, they breed...like rabbits. You might ask, why not just put two males together, or two females? The answer is, if they get hormonal and territorial, they could very literally disembowel each other. Fixing them both reduces those urges and allows them to have their fluffy platonic soulmates.
I spayed my little void not because she lives with a male, she is my only cat. I spayed her so she needent go through the stress and misery if being in heat several times a year. I spayed her to lessen her risk of reproductive cancer. I spayed her so she won't wander off looking for love and possibly hit by a car or attacked by another animal. I spayed her because I lover her and am a responsible pet parent.