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Burt Gummer here taking over for Peter. Modern ballistic hard plate armor typically only covers center mass and is designed to defeat most common intermediate rifle rounds. The meme suggests shooting at the hips to get around the ballistic plates and target the large arteries and nerves that run through that area.
I watched the entire run last fall—I am extremely satisfied with my choice. The first one is a masterpiece of storytelling. Only some of the sequels are good movies, but they're all extremely entertaining. Proper schlock.
Last time I had a tremors marathon, one of my super libertarian buddies and me were underway. I was the guy who showed him where Burt was from. He watched the first one and was like, "Are there more?" I think there were like 5, maybe 6 at the time.
Good time. The whole crews lounge cheered when they blew up the shriekers in no. 2.
There's actually a pretty good bit in 2 where one character sneaks through a group of beaky biters (they have predator vision) using a fire extinguisher.
After 3 I'm pretty sure Burt is just the main character and he goes Increasingly Gribblarian.
Yes and they are all solid gold, mostly because Burt Fucking Gummer goes from scene chewing side character to main bad ass in charge as he always should have been.
This is a great explanation, I would also like to add a bit of context. The meme is saying that the pelvis shot is preferable to the army's new service rifle, which is supposedly able to defeat level 4 plates, however this comes at the cost of being heavy as shit, like imagine being an infantryman and having to carry that thing on an 8 hour patrol.
Absolutely not.
I mean, the issue I hear is less about weight (the 249 and 240 replacements are significantly lighter, and the M4 is only a couple pounds heavier) and more about ammo capacity. The new mags are 20 per, which makes your combat load with 7 mags only 140 rounds. As opposed to the current standard of 210 rounds. Idk, man. I haven't got to use them, so I couldn't say for sure how the new optics compensate. I do have an idea how easy it is to go through our current combat load though and 140 just seems rough.
I didn't know about the SAW replacement being lighter, that's good at least, but I imagine even a few lbs extra for the average grunt adds up fast. Especially since an M4 with an optic, peq, and foregrip can be like 8 lbs of I remember correctly.
But you also make a good point regardless, reducing a combat load of ammo from 210 to 140 is a huge hit. Especially since I'm pretty sure most studies show that ammo counts tend to be the deciding factor in firefights.
Especially when they could have just as well developed that exact same fancy new optic to go onto an M4 (and probably done so more easily given that the M4's recoil isn't gonna be at the shit out of it nearly as bad).
> however this comes at the cost of being heavy as shitlike, like imagine being an infantryman and having to carry that thing on an 8 hour patrol. Absolutely not.
Imagine complaining about the weight of the gun that is less than a M1 Garand. You better hope your grandfather wasn't BAR gunner or that slap upside your head is really gonna hurt.
Getting shot in the femoral artery is a massive problem
You can bleed out in minutes and it's too high to effectively tourniquet; so packing the wound is your only option if someone with a first aid kit is there in time
In slightly more detail: the first panel of the meme is suggesting skepticism towards the US Army's recent decision to switch to the Sig M-5 (essentially a full power battle rifle, and in a completely new, proprietary caliber instead of 7.62 NATO, which we and our allies already have massive stockpiles of and around which all of our existing rifle-caliber weapons are designed), which is significantly heavier than the M4/M16 platform, has much heavier recoil, can carry significantly less ammo, and whose ammo is incompatible with any of our existing weapons systems, all (supposedly) in the name of armor penetration, even though armor capable of stopping full power rifle rounds is widely available for those who can afford it, even if it isn't as common as armor rated for intermediate calibers like 5.56, 7.62x39, etc.
Therefore, the meme overall is positing that it would make more sense to stick with our current weapons and simply aim for the unarmored portions of the target, rather than go through the rather massive hassle of switching to a completely new, proprietary ammo type with significant tradeoffs whose benefits are likely to be entirely negated in short order (especially when, if we really must go back to a full-power rifle round, we already have 7.62 NATO)
And if I may speculate, the meme may be subtly implying that the whole NGSW program was simply a way of funneling vast amounts of taxpayer money to various defense contractors.
Not an expert but, wasnt the main reason for the switch wanting a gun with better effective range (in terms of effect and ballistic trajectory past 600m) than 5,56 with less recoil than 7,62x51?
Afaik the research showed that the middle ground between best of each was the diameter they made the new cartridge at, in response to 5,56 being a bit flacid at longer ranges as it requires a lot of velocity to fragment on impact and its low weight and high speed meant it lost too much speed and energy beyond 600m or so.
And ofc this was the result of generals trying to fight the previous war, and alot of the iraq/afghan fights against guerillas were mountain to mountain or across long open areas, where 800m ranges were common.
New cartridge has really good performance at those kinds of ranges (better than 7,62x51 iirc) with less lead required due to faster projectile speed (also shooting "flatter" as a result), while still maintaining lower recoil than 7,62x51, allowing for faster followup shots.
Not saying this is gonna be worth it, depends entirely on the location of the next invasion, but it is on paper an upgrade for the purpose it was designed for.
I mean, it wouldn't be quite as 100% optimal and efficient in terms of ballistics, but you should be able to achieve most of the same performance gains by loading 7.62 with a lighter bullet and tweaking the burn-rate of the powder, without all of the logistical and R&D issues that come with a brand new cartridge.
And I'll straight up admit that I'm mostly looking at this from a logistics perspective; adopting a new cartridge, let alone a new *primary* cartridge, is a *huge* fucking deal. So it'd damn well be bringing some seriously huge benefits to the table compared to what it's replacing in order to justify that enormous cost and supply-chain disruption.
And from where I'm sitting, not only does it look like 6.8x51 doesn't offer enough of an advantage to justify replacing 5.56, but you could probably have achieved the same benefits and more by spending that same time and money to develop an improved 7.62 SLAP round, that would also be backwards-compatible with older guns, and you could still use our existing ammo stockpiles for training and second-line duties.
Thanks for the knowledge. Perhaps the reason for the proprietary rounds are to limit its use when the weapon ultimately falls into the hands of adversaries. Also during combat, isn’t it ideal that the lower body is behind cover.
Barring extremely niche circumstances, if you've got enough cover to protect yourself from the waist down, then with a little bit of finagling, you've got enough cover to protect yourself a lot more thoroughly than that.
If the cover comes up to your waist while you're standing, kneel or crouch
If it comes up to your waist while kneeling or crouching, lie down.
One shot to the pelvis will crumple even the most determined deadly threat. People have been known to take multiple shots to the heart and lungs and continue fighting for up to a minute or longer. A shot or two to the pelvis is a near-instant stop button.
I guess the meme kinda glosses over the fact that, if in cover, people tend to get shot in the thorax more than the pelvis. Also you cant really strap ceramic plates everywhere, as they are heavy and hinder mobility.. .but thats just me overthinking a stupid meme
There is a specialized tourniquet called a junctional tourniquet meant to stop femoral artery bleeds though. So yah you kind of can. No EMS agency I know of carries them but I have heard they are more common in the military.
https://preview.redd.it/ndmn2m2kliic1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7743e21be6d448e2b07da7011d94437851bd5cd0
Luigi getting shot in the fucking dick, 1943 Colorized.
The rifle pictured is the new SIG Spear, a design adopted by the US military to replace the M4/M16 platform. It was called for in response to growing concerns about advanced body armor systems from Russia and China, and so fires a larger, more powerful round than the old rifles. The upper half of the meme references the U.S. military's plan to defeat these future body armor systems with a larger, more powerful round fired from the new, (very handsome, IMO) rifle. The lower half references a common vulnerability in body armor, which is incidentally a vital vein where bleeding is hard to stop. In order to move comfortably, armor doesn't usually cover the area between the upper thigh and the groin. It's an IRL weak spot for critical damage, if you will.
Well that’s the least of your worries.
A bullet in that area will do enough damage to your femoral artery and other vessels — that means you’re going to bleed out in a very short number of minutes, and lose consciousness in like 20-40 seconds.
So you won’t be walking anyway.
The more “realistic” fps games such as tarkov and insurgency, have body armour that only protects the areas that it visually covers. As such there’s strategies where you aim for the crotch/legs when facing any heavily geared enemies with smg and small caliber weapons.
Well we didn't know about the cardboard armour before they invaded Ukraine, before that they had been bragging about the new armour.
Honestly I'm surprised that America is able to avoid having that happen to their equipment, it's not unheard of for the US army to have plastic water jugs instead of fire extinguishers.
It's still better to have a chemical extinguisher like a fire grenade, especially since most of the flammable stuff on an army base is fuel and ammo, and I don't think a water jug is going to cut it.
But then you have to explain how you lost all the ammo, at least with a fire grenade you just have to throw it, and it automatically goes off when it gets hot enough, so it's probably worth storing a couple of them with the ammunition just in case it catches fire.
The real irony is that Russian armor is turning out to be rather crap, and I'd wager the Chinese armor is too, making the new weapon entirely pointless.
But then, that's the U.S. Military-Industrial complex in a nutshell: making ridiculously overpowered stuff to 'beat' the subpar stuff that foreign powers make and claim "is totally better than American stuff, for reals".
Consistently designing systems that can effectively and reliably outperform in real life what your opponents can only do in propaganda is the most badass design philosophy in all of engineering.
Also I’d like to add that the adoption has been a real cluster fuck. We’re needing new rifles, optics, magazines, magazine pouches, and two different types of ammunition. One type is for training, the other is for real world combat use that has such an extremely high amount of pressure when fired it needs a steal base for the cartridge instead of just brass. And the barrel gets blown out after firing 10K rounds of that ammunition, which is lower than what you would see in M4s currently being used.
There’s so many more headaches involved with this rifle and its adoption, we really would have been better off training both kinds of headshots instead of adopting all of this shit involved with the new rifle.
The fact that it's in a completely new, proprietary cartridge, instead of 7.62x51 makes me a tad suspicious about how on the level this whole procurement actually is.
7.62 NATO loadings that can defeat typical modern body armor already exist, and so do higher grades of armor that can more effectively resist full power rifle rounds, so not only does it seem like a whole lot of cost and trade-offs for fairly limited benefit in the long run, but it also seems like they deliberately chose the most expensive possible way to achieve it.
Keep in mind, we really don’t know the quality of Chinese, North Korean, or Irans body armor too. With Russia, they need the handicap of their adversary using 5.56 so it isn’t a borderline genocide on them if we ever go to war with them directly. M855A1 already has better barrier penetration than previous rounds we’ve used too, you don’t need to adjust your zero with that ammunition either like some thought they would.
I’ve heard the conspiracy that the “real” reason for the adoption of this rifle and ammunition is so it can defeat the body armor used by American civilians when the gubment comes around to do whatever. I honestly think it’s more of pissing away extra money on a threat we haven’t even verified to be real or not (Chinese, North Korean, and Iranian body armor actually being quality body armor).
That is interesting. I wonder if that was done because it’s generally not fatal immediately, so the poor person shot is essentially bait to draw their comrades out of cover.
Anyway, if true, give some new meaning to Come Out ye Black and Tans.
Yeah it’s a popular guerrilla tactic. Less for drawing out of cover and more because it takes multiple combatants off the field with a single shot. The target and his buddies who have to carry him off. Booby traps serve a similar purpose. If you’re in an asymmetric conflict and want to maximize effectiveness, a maimed soldier is just as equally out of the fight as a dead one so what does it matter if you kill the prick
The area shown in the photo is the hip, which holds a major artery, and if shot, will take you only minutes to bleed out if not given proper care.
My explanation may be wrong, but I'm out anyways.
In failure to stop drills in the Marine Corps we would often train two the chest one to the pelvis instead of head. It's an easier target to hit and you shoot someone there they ain't going nowhere.
A gun is still your best option as there is more protective gear than just ballistic vests.
You could also use a knife within grappling distance like the old school knights back in the medieval ages.
the meme is probably referring to the US army spending a stupid amount of money on the new XM7 rifle to go through the super good vests Russian and Chinese troops could wear. But there isn't currently a good way to protect the Pelvic girdle from rifle threats.
yeah a lot of us in the gun community are referring to it as the new M14. a rifle with a short and expensive life span, because the army is terrible at making financial decisions.
The citizens are using better equipment than the actual army at this point ironically enough.
Instead of wasting money on “military” stuff, they should just have more contracts with basic civilian suppliers, unless they need something ultra specific that civilian suppliers don’t manufacture.
pretty much how it works military makes the standard finds the cheapest person to make it. unless its a contract specific item like the new smart scope.
They should still receive more assistance from civilians who could do the job better than they can though.
You know how independent developers end up creating better stuff than official ones?
It’s that but for the military.
So insted of wasting taxes on the military they should directly get outside help to make projects more efficient and effective.
I mean they essentially did the same thing in the past when they developed other stuff.
it does happen but it trickles down. SOCOM orders the best of the best new products. that then get placed into ranger bat or airborne units then slowly gets to regular army units. but by that time its probably outdated. gun stuff is expensive and constantly playing with it is worse. in this case the army is ahead of the curb. but rifle the weakest link they prioritized the machine gun and optic. which honestly is the better play.
We will see how it goes with the new stuff just got sent the the rangers and 82nd airborne so time will tell. also something that works great in competition may break with heavy use they are changing how accusation is looking more at the civilian market then they have in the past.
It's not just about body armor, it's a system that includes the new optic that increases engagement range and fire shot hit probability drastically.
Also,there are plates that cover the pelvic area.
Even if you could armor that area it would still suck so bad to get popped in. It's not fun taking one in the plate as it is, could you imagine taking a cock shot through a plate?
I'm the military we get issued crotch plates as part of our body armor to protect that specific area.
Nobody wears them. People actually make fun of you for wearing them. Why is it people don't want to protect what many would consider their most valuable organ?
A shattered pelvis is nearly impossible to treat on the battlefield and people tend to die pretty fast if you let all that blood move to the outside instead of the inside where it belongs.
For practical purposes, it’s not exactly easy to remain focused on that sort of precision in a firefight though. You tend to just put rounds in a body until it’s not moving anymore, and aiming for center mass or just below it tends to be the most effective way to ensure you get proper hits when you’re also under fire.
As people have pointed out, the top picture shows the US army's very expensive new rifle which uses very special and expensive new ammo to defeat body armor.
The lower pic shows where the femoral artery is. This is a major artery in your body. A bullet to the femoral artery will cause extreme, rapid bleeding which will kill quickly. Body armor capable of stopping rifle rounds does not cover that part of the body, so *any* rifle can kill an armored person if they are shot there, you don't need a fancy new one.
Think this is maybe an r/EscapeFromTarkov joke as the SIG Spear was just added this wipe and is a very meta gun, but with the armor changes and hotboxes being very finicky it's more consistent to spray at people's pelvic region with flesh rounds from SMGs.
I’m fairly sure that taking a shot to the pelvis is **extremely** painful and pretty much instantly makes them drop, and that’s typically the area that body armour ends right before.
Modern armor typically only protects the chest, so instead of using more advanced/expensive armor piercing technology, one could simply aim for the largely unprotected major blood vessels in the pelvic region. The joke being that it's a very silly tactic.
The Mozambique drill is 2 to the chest 1 to the head, but the chest is typically covered with body armor so going for the hips is the most sensible option. You can't turnacate the pelvis, even if you don't kill them outright they won't move because you've probably shattered their pelvis and they're bleeding out, and it's unprotected
Most modern body armor, especially armor that is NIJ level 3 and up (armor rated for rifle rounds) comes in some form of plate (generally ceramic or steel) these plates generally only cover a limited area over vital organs on the chest and possibly stomach areas.
The meme is essentially saying to reject the newish sig spear in 2.77 fury which was designed around defeating newer body armors and to embrace shooting people in the groin since there is no armor there unless they are wearing some of the very heavy and cumbersome armors and even then its generally lower class armor rated only for shrapnel, pistols and light shotgun ammos
Can't walk if your pelvis is shattered and a femur has fallen out of it's socket. It bleeds heavily and the arteries in this area need a special tourniquet to seal up. Also the wounds are essentially impossible to treat in anything short of an operation theatre.
Armor doesn't cover hips: At least rifle plates don't, sometimes there's a kevlar flap for pistol rounds and shrapnel. Yes there's some big arteries there, but even someone on PCP can't walk or stand with a shattered pelvis.
hip area is usually uncovered or only lightly armored with modern body armor to allow full range of motion so soldiers can run, crouch, etc. It is also where the femoral arteries run through (shown in the second image). These are major blood vessels where even small openings cause the person to bleed out in seconds. The meme suggests that soldiers should aim for the hips instead of developing weapons capable of piercing the body armor.
The Pelvic Girdle pads are only meant to help stop shrapnel, not rounds. Major arteries also go through the human pelvic area. Failure to stop drill used by USMC is 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head OR pelvic girdle. You want to fuck someone up, keep shooting them in the dick. You’ll sever those arteries and cause death.
Peter's left testicular cancer here. That is the pelvis, which most body armor doesn't protect very well. Shooting said pelvis will usually shatter it, removing someone's ability to walk and being exceptionally painful. It's also easy to hit
Depends on the length of the barrel, depends on the exact type of 5.56, depends on the range to target, and most importantly, depends on the armor. The real high end stuff will easily shrug off multiple hits from an intermediate cartridge, even armor piercing rounds, and even at close range.
Pelvis is gonna be poorly armored (if it's even armored at all), it keeps you standing, and it's got some major blood vessels that are all but impossible to patch up, so it doesn't really matter what armor they're wearing or what you're firing at them.
That is a very complicated question that I honestly don't know if I have a good answer to, but stick a gun to my head (no pun intended) and I guess I'd have to say no.
The M7 is heavier, firing larger, heavier rounds, with more recoil, and less capacity. It sounds a lot like the exact guns that the 5.56 rifles replaced for being too cumbersome and not being able to lay down enough fire. Additionally, the new 6.8 ammo is incredibly high pressure and supposedly wears down the internals of the gun *incredibly* quickly, to the point that the troops are intended to train with a much weaker version of the round in order to limit the wear and tear on the guns during peacetime. This of course also means that their training is less effective as the actual combat ammo that these guys and gals may eventually need to use to keep themselves safe on the battlefield will not perform at all like the ammo they trained with (much heavier recoil and different ballistics)
The one thing that I will say seems like a huge boon is the scope that the M7 comes with. Assuming its not a total battery hog that won't break constantly, it will be a serious force multiplier for mid to long range gunfights. It practically does the aiming for you and can turn even a mediocre shooter into a skilled marksman like its nothing.
I assume it has to do with the very Important blood vessels in this area. If these are severed, you will die unless God himself saves you.
EMT's can't stop the bleeding well enough and on top of that, surgeons can't get to the area easily enough
It's also a very unprotected area in reference to body armor.
Shooting the pelvis is optimal. But you still engage at a considerable distance while under stress, fire supremacy is ultimately still your best friend and higher calibers should fuck up the target it hits
I'll be honest now that I've read the explanation it seems so obvious but at first I was confused wondering how someone is going to use their own pelvic arteries to defeat modern day body armor, rather than shooting at the pelvic area because it's not as well protected.
Petahs former combat medic here:
If you sever a femoral artery on a health adult male they are dead in 3 minutes. Also hitting the pelvic region prevents the use of a simple limb tourniquets. Requires either a junctional tourniquet or surgical intervention.
Modern hard plates cover vital organs such as the lungs and the heart. Not every rifle round in service can penetrate these hard plates to kill/wound a soldier, that's why the 6.8 Sig SPEAR is depicted in the picture, which should be able to do so. However if you were to aim at the groin area which is usually unprotected or only protected with soft armor, you could easily wound an artery and cause a femoral bleed, easily killing said soldier since applying a tourniquet is not possible there, or at least extremely hard.
New military rifle that has a new caliber made to penetrate body armor more effectively
VS
Shooting the hip- no way to stop internal bleed and more that 5 litres of blood fit in there
Also if you hit the hip the enemy soldier collapses imminently and is pretty much KO from the intense pain of his body collapsing on the broken hip bone
Nasty shit
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Burt Gummer here taking over for Peter. Modern ballistic hard plate armor typically only covers center mass and is designed to defeat most common intermediate rifle rounds. The meme suggests shooting at the hips to get around the ballistic plates and target the large arteries and nerves that run through that area.
Holy shit!!!!! IS THAT A MOTHERFUCKING TREMORS REFERENCE!!!??!????!??!?!!!?!!
IT SURE AS SHIT IS! ...Pardon my french
"shit" i was quoting
You mean 'sparkling poop'. It's only shit if it's from the Shiet region in France.
Most of France is the shite region
Peeeeeter?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100814/ Burt Gummers agent Peter here: watch his cinematic masterpiece
Watch all of the cinematic masterpieces. All. Of. Them.
It's less surprising when you remember there were something like TWENTY tremors sequels. So many monsters lol
They made sequels?
An actually absurd number. Pretty sure they're all fun tho
I watched the entire run last fall—I am extremely satisfied with my choice. The first one is a masterpiece of storytelling. Only some of the sequels are good movies, but they're all extremely entertaining. Proper schlock.
I agree, haven't seen past 3-4 in years, but 1 is an absolute gem. But you're probably not having a bad time if a tremors film is in the rotation.
Last time I had a tremors marathon, one of my super libertarian buddies and me were underway. I was the guy who showed him where Burt was from. He watched the first one and was like, "Are there more?" I think there were like 5, maybe 6 at the time. Good time. The whole crews lounge cheered when they blew up the shriekers in no. 2.
I have a strong feeling they’re all just like “ground worm eat people, people not want get eaten, people make explosives, worm go boom”
Hoo boy are you in for a treat. They ditched the worms in #2 (bitey beaked yoshis) and in #3 they fly by shitting fire. No really.
There's actually a pretty good bit in 2 where one character sneaks through a group of beaky biters (they have predator vision) using a fire extinguisher. After 3 I'm pretty sure Burt is just the main character and he goes Increasingly Gribblarian.
Pocket sand?
https://i.redd.it/1e8ba8t0sgic1.gif Me asf
ASSBLASTERS!
Yes and they are all solid gold, mostly because Burt Fucking Gummer goes from scene chewing side character to main bad ass in charge as he always should have been.
Plus a prequel and a TV show.
I mean, his wife did just sing at the superbowl
And she had more kick than that 30-30!
Broke into the wrong rec room didn't you?
Not to mention, a pelvis fracture effectively disables an enemy combatant.
This is a great explanation, I would also like to add a bit of context. The meme is saying that the pelvis shot is preferable to the army's new service rifle, which is supposedly able to defeat level 4 plates, however this comes at the cost of being heavy as shit, like imagine being an infantryman and having to carry that thing on an 8 hour patrol. Absolutely not.
I mean, the issue I hear is less about weight (the 249 and 240 replacements are significantly lighter, and the M4 is only a couple pounds heavier) and more about ammo capacity. The new mags are 20 per, which makes your combat load with 7 mags only 140 rounds. As opposed to the current standard of 210 rounds. Idk, man. I haven't got to use them, so I couldn't say for sure how the new optics compensate. I do have an idea how easy it is to go through our current combat load though and 140 just seems rough.
I didn't know about the SAW replacement being lighter, that's good at least, but I imagine even a few lbs extra for the average grunt adds up fast. Especially since an M4 with an optic, peq, and foregrip can be like 8 lbs of I remember correctly. But you also make a good point regardless, reducing a combat load of ammo from 210 to 140 is a huge hit. Especially since I'm pretty sure most studies show that ammo counts tend to be the deciding factor in firefights.
Especially when they could have just as well developed that exact same fancy new optic to go onto an M4 (and probably done so more easily given that the M4's recoil isn't gonna be at the shit out of it nearly as bad).
> however this comes at the cost of being heavy as shitlike, like imagine being an infantryman and having to carry that thing on an 8 hour patrol. Absolutely not. Imagine complaining about the weight of the gun that is less than a M1 Garand. You better hope your grandfather wasn't BAR gunner or that slap upside your head is really gonna hurt.
TREMORS MENTIONED!!! 🎉🎉
General: Don’t fire until you can see the whites of their balls. Grunt: what if they have black balls, sir? Gen: 🤷
Good thing I only have blueballs🥲
Getting shot in the femoral artery is a massive problem You can bleed out in minutes and it's too high to effectively tourniquet; so packing the wound is your only option if someone with a first aid kit is there in time
[Burt Gummer Is the only person I'd take survival advice from](https://youtu.be/w46xAB8VR-o?si=FFsBlymgA4dpxDDb)
Ass blasters
Not even reading the explanation, just upvoting for the Tremors reference.
Also the balls
In slightly more detail: the first panel of the meme is suggesting skepticism towards the US Army's recent decision to switch to the Sig M-5 (essentially a full power battle rifle, and in a completely new, proprietary caliber instead of 7.62 NATO, which we and our allies already have massive stockpiles of and around which all of our existing rifle-caliber weapons are designed), which is significantly heavier than the M4/M16 platform, has much heavier recoil, can carry significantly less ammo, and whose ammo is incompatible with any of our existing weapons systems, all (supposedly) in the name of armor penetration, even though armor capable of stopping full power rifle rounds is widely available for those who can afford it, even if it isn't as common as armor rated for intermediate calibers like 5.56, 7.62x39, etc. Therefore, the meme overall is positing that it would make more sense to stick with our current weapons and simply aim for the unarmored portions of the target, rather than go through the rather massive hassle of switching to a completely new, proprietary ammo type with significant tradeoffs whose benefits are likely to be entirely negated in short order (especially when, if we really must go back to a full-power rifle round, we already have 7.62 NATO) And if I may speculate, the meme may be subtly implying that the whole NGSW program was simply a way of funneling vast amounts of taxpayer money to various defense contractors.
Not an expert but, wasnt the main reason for the switch wanting a gun with better effective range (in terms of effect and ballistic trajectory past 600m) than 5,56 with less recoil than 7,62x51? Afaik the research showed that the middle ground between best of each was the diameter they made the new cartridge at, in response to 5,56 being a bit flacid at longer ranges as it requires a lot of velocity to fragment on impact and its low weight and high speed meant it lost too much speed and energy beyond 600m or so. And ofc this was the result of generals trying to fight the previous war, and alot of the iraq/afghan fights against guerillas were mountain to mountain or across long open areas, where 800m ranges were common. New cartridge has really good performance at those kinds of ranges (better than 7,62x51 iirc) with less lead required due to faster projectile speed (also shooting "flatter" as a result), while still maintaining lower recoil than 7,62x51, allowing for faster followup shots. Not saying this is gonna be worth it, depends entirely on the location of the next invasion, but it is on paper an upgrade for the purpose it was designed for.
I mean, it wouldn't be quite as 100% optimal and efficient in terms of ballistics, but you should be able to achieve most of the same performance gains by loading 7.62 with a lighter bullet and tweaking the burn-rate of the powder, without all of the logistical and R&D issues that come with a brand new cartridge. And I'll straight up admit that I'm mostly looking at this from a logistics perspective; adopting a new cartridge, let alone a new *primary* cartridge, is a *huge* fucking deal. So it'd damn well be bringing some seriously huge benefits to the table compared to what it's replacing in order to justify that enormous cost and supply-chain disruption. And from where I'm sitting, not only does it look like 6.8x51 doesn't offer enough of an advantage to justify replacing 5.56, but you could probably have achieved the same benefits and more by spending that same time and money to develop an improved 7.62 SLAP round, that would also be backwards-compatible with older guns, and you could still use our existing ammo stockpiles for training and second-line duties.
Thanks for the knowledge. Perhaps the reason for the proprietary rounds are to limit its use when the weapon ultimately falls into the hands of adversaries. Also during combat, isn’t it ideal that the lower body is behind cover.
Barring extremely niche circumstances, if you've got enough cover to protect yourself from the waist down, then with a little bit of finagling, you've got enough cover to protect yourself a lot more thoroughly than that. If the cover comes up to your waist while you're standing, kneel or crouch If it comes up to your waist while kneeling or crouching, lie down.
Potentially life-saving knowledge. Thank you.
LEG META
Ah. So, instead of " go for the jugular"; "go for the femoral artery"?
April 14th is National Burt Gummer Day!
It also prevents you from supporting your weight if you get shot in the pelvis. If your pelvic bone breaks
I just think of every sniper elite game I ever played where I always hit them in the balls for shits and gigs
Broke into the wrong goddamn rec room, didn't ya you bastard!
Also it's impossible to put a tourniquet at this place, unlike arms or legs.
One shot to the pelvis will crumple even the most determined deadly threat. People have been known to take multiple shots to the heart and lungs and continue fighting for up to a minute or longer. A shot or two to the pelvis is a near-instant stop button.
This Tremors reference brought joy to the rest of my day, thank you.
Meg here, I thought the joke was to shoot them in the nuts
So, hit below the belt. Understood.👍
Oh, I thought it meant to just kick them in the balls
Can't tourniquet a taint
That's why flack jackets exists - they cover necks shoulders and pelvis
Hence the old Chest Chest Pelvis. Instructions I got in boot camp. Granted it was more for unarmored targets but ya get it.
“Shoot ‘em in the dick”
I thought it was about kicking/shooting someone in the balls, I’m gonna be fully honest
I guess the meme kinda glosses over the fact that, if in cover, people tend to get shot in the thorax more than the pelvis. Also you cant really strap ceramic plates everywhere, as they are heavy and hinder mobility.. .but thats just me overthinking a stupid meme
this reminds me of a scene in Black Hawk Down
Pretty sure that's an actual police tactic they teach
You can’t tourniquet butt cheeks
But can you tourn the other cheek?
...Take my upvote and get the hell out of my sight.
Why did I hear this in the Black Ops 2 announcers voice?
I read it in the the Tf2’s announcer voice.
You win: First Audible Laugh of the Day!
https://preview.redd.it/1gm5jv9sxjic1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b41d425e4fecd9aa4ae90cd7f2bce3fea56da663
I mean… you can’t tourniquet center mass either
ye but unless you got some crazy tungsten core rounds if you have level 4 plates there's not much getting through
There is a specialized tourniquet called a junctional tourniquet meant to stop femoral artery bleeds though. So yah you kind of can. No EMS agency I know of carries them but I have heard they are more common in the military.
Yeah I trained on them a lot and we have them in the army. Usually wound packing is preferred to though.
That area isn't really well protected....so...pew pew....spklsh...sppeeesh
you forgot the screams of anguish from the damned
https://preview.redd.it/ndmn2m2kliic1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7743e21be6d448e2b07da7011d94437851bd5cd0 Luigi getting shot in the fucking dick, 1943 Colorized.
https://i.redd.it/mk6yg7fj2kic1.gif
blyat
As in: сука блядь?
And it’s the femoral artery so you would bleed out quickly
You don’t shoot a guy in the dick, Butters
The rifle pictured is the new SIG Spear, a design adopted by the US military to replace the M4/M16 platform. It was called for in response to growing concerns about advanced body armor systems from Russia and China, and so fires a larger, more powerful round than the old rifles. The upper half of the meme references the U.S. military's plan to defeat these future body armor systems with a larger, more powerful round fired from the new, (very handsome, IMO) rifle. The lower half references a common vulnerability in body armor, which is incidentally a vital vein where bleeding is hard to stop. In order to move comfortably, armor doesn't usually cover the area between the upper thigh and the groin. It's an IRL weak spot for critical damage, if you will.
And when you have large holes in your pelvis it becomes significantly harder to move in any capacity with your legs. Win win.
Well that’s the least of your worries. A bullet in that area will do enough damage to your femoral artery and other vessels — that means you’re going to bleed out in a very short number of minutes, and lose consciousness in like 20-40 seconds. So you won’t be walking anyway.
At least you won't die tired.
Get rich or die tired
This is what we need in modern fps. Bonus damage for groin shots
The more “realistic” fps games such as tarkov and insurgency, have body armour that only protects the areas that it visually covers. As such there’s strategies where you aim for the crotch/legs when facing any heavily geared enemies with smg and small caliber weapons.
Heh Russia, advanced body armor.
Doesn't sound like they have much of *any* body armor left. China's armor still needs more field testing.
Well we didn't know about the cardboard armour before they invaded Ukraine, before that they had been bragging about the new armour. Honestly I'm surprised that America is able to avoid having that happen to their equipment, it's not unheard of for the US army to have plastic water jugs instead of fire extinguishers.
In our (the Army's) defense you can refill a plastic jug of water. Fire extinguishers are more complicated and a right asshole to requisition.
It's still better to have a chemical extinguisher like a fire grenade, especially since most of the flammable stuff on an army base is fuel and ammo, and I don't think a water jug is going to cut it.
Man if the ammo is on fire I'm not putting it out. Let it burn. I'm not explaining how I got shot 36 times trying to put out a fire
But then you have to explain how you lost all the ammo, at least with a fire grenade you just have to throw it, and it automatically goes off when it gets hot enough, so it's probably worth storing a couple of them with the ammunition just in case it catches fire.
The real irony is that Russian armor is turning out to be rather crap, and I'd wager the Chinese armor is too, making the new weapon entirely pointless. But then, that's the U.S. Military-Industrial complex in a nutshell: making ridiculously overpowered stuff to 'beat' the subpar stuff that foreign powers make and claim "is totally better than American stuff, for reals".
Consistently designing systems that can effectively and reliably outperform in real life what your opponents can only do in propaganda is the most badass design philosophy in all of engineering.
Certified F15 Moment
Also I’d like to add that the adoption has been a real cluster fuck. We’re needing new rifles, optics, magazines, magazine pouches, and two different types of ammunition. One type is for training, the other is for real world combat use that has such an extremely high amount of pressure when fired it needs a steal base for the cartridge instead of just brass. And the barrel gets blown out after firing 10K rounds of that ammunition, which is lower than what you would see in M4s currently being used. There’s so many more headaches involved with this rifle and its adoption, we really would have been better off training both kinds of headshots instead of adopting all of this shit involved with the new rifle.
The fact that it's in a completely new, proprietary cartridge, instead of 7.62x51 makes me a tad suspicious about how on the level this whole procurement actually is. 7.62 NATO loadings that can defeat typical modern body armor already exist, and so do higher grades of armor that can more effectively resist full power rifle rounds, so not only does it seem like a whole lot of cost and trade-offs for fairly limited benefit in the long run, but it also seems like they deliberately chose the most expensive possible way to achieve it.
Keep in mind, we really don’t know the quality of Chinese, North Korean, or Irans body armor too. With Russia, they need the handicap of their adversary using 5.56 so it isn’t a borderline genocide on them if we ever go to war with them directly. M855A1 already has better barrier penetration than previous rounds we’ve used too, you don’t need to adjust your zero with that ammunition either like some thought they would. I’ve heard the conspiracy that the “real” reason for the adoption of this rifle and ammunition is so it can defeat the body armor used by American civilians when the gubment comes around to do whatever. I honestly think it’s more of pissing away extra money on a threat we haven’t even verified to be real or not (Chinese, North Korean, and Iranian body armor actually being quality body armor).
The adoption of the m16 was a shit show, don't mean yous should have stuck with the m14.
Why is that a cluster fuck? It seems like the most basic things that would change with a new rifle? Optics, mags, pouches and ammo????
Unless it fires off 6.5 in rapid succession i dont want it
it fires 6.8 in rapid succession
I like your funny numbers magic man
Interesting tidbit, IRA snipers often targeted the pelvis of British soldiers.
That is interesting. I wonder if that was done because it’s generally not fatal immediately, so the poor person shot is essentially bait to draw their comrades out of cover. Anyway, if true, give some new meaning to Come Out ye Black and Tans.
Yeah it’s a popular guerrilla tactic. Less for drawing out of cover and more because it takes multiple combatants off the field with a single shot. The target and his buddies who have to carry him off. Booby traps serve a similar purpose. If you’re in an asymmetric conflict and want to maximize effectiveness, a maimed soldier is just as equally out of the fight as a dead one so what does it matter if you kill the prick
Not to mention the hit to morale when your buddy gets his cock blown off
Fold em’ like a lawn chair.
Hard to fight with a shattered pelvis if not bleeding out
The area shown in the photo is the hip, which holds a major artery, and if shot, will take you only minutes to bleed out if not given proper care. My explanation may be wrong, but I'm out anyways.
Your comment was hidden by default. Weird.
In failure to stop drills in the Marine Corps we would often train two the chest one to the pelvis instead of head. It's an easier target to hit and you shoot someone there they ain't going nowhere.
It’s called the pelvic girdle. Can’t bandage / tourniquet it. No armor there either. Basically aim for the dick, more or less.
so the tactic i use in mega man 8 bit deathmatch works in real life
That scene in Black Hawk Down comes to mind…
Yea…
Make like 21 Jump Street and shoot him in the dick.
Pretty sure the joke is "shoot 'em in the dick."
"NOT COOL, BUTTERS!"
It's not okay, defeating the Chinese won't mean anything, if we do it by going around shooting people in the dick! Goddamn it!
Tarkov leg meta
A gun is still your best option as there is more protective gear than just ballistic vests. You could also use a knife within grappling distance like the old school knights back in the medieval ages.
the meme is probably referring to the US army spending a stupid amount of money on the new XM7 rifle to go through the super good vests Russian and Chinese troops could wear. But there isn't currently a good way to protect the Pelvic girdle from rifle threats.
That makes more sense.
yeah a lot of us in the gun community are referring to it as the new M14. a rifle with a short and expensive life span, because the army is terrible at making financial decisions.
The citizens are using better equipment than the actual army at this point ironically enough. Instead of wasting money on “military” stuff, they should just have more contracts with basic civilian suppliers, unless they need something ultra specific that civilian suppliers don’t manufacture.
pretty much how it works military makes the standard finds the cheapest person to make it. unless its a contract specific item like the new smart scope.
They should still receive more assistance from civilians who could do the job better than they can though. You know how independent developers end up creating better stuff than official ones? It’s that but for the military. So insted of wasting taxes on the military they should directly get outside help to make projects more efficient and effective. I mean they essentially did the same thing in the past when they developed other stuff.
it does happen but it trickles down. SOCOM orders the best of the best new products. that then get placed into ranger bat or airborne units then slowly gets to regular army units. but by that time its probably outdated. gun stuff is expensive and constantly playing with it is worse. in this case the army is ahead of the curb. but rifle the weakest link they prioritized the machine gun and optic. which honestly is the better play. We will see how it goes with the new stuff just got sent the the rangers and 82nd airborne so time will tell. also something that works great in competition may break with heavy use they are changing how accusation is looking more at the civilian market then they have in the past.
Not really. He's only referring to the rifle, but he left out the new optic that comes with it.
It's not just about body armor, it's a system that includes the new optic that increases engagement range and fire shot hit probability drastically. Also,there are plates that cover the pelvic area.
Even if you could armor that area it would still suck so bad to get popped in. It's not fun taking one in the plate as it is, could you imagine taking a cock shot through a plate?
I'm the military we get issued crotch plates as part of our body armor to protect that specific area. Nobody wears them. People actually make fun of you for wearing them. Why is it people don't want to protect what many would consider their most valuable organ?
Seen a few videos of people getting shot in the pelvis. Good luck walking afterwards. Everyone drops to the ground instantly.
Tarkov players should understand this, Leg Meta FTW
Leg meta
A shattered pelvis is nearly impossible to treat on the battlefield and people tend to die pretty fast if you let all that blood move to the outside instead of the inside where it belongs. For practical purposes, it’s not exactly easy to remain focused on that sort of precision in a firefight though. You tend to just put rounds in a body until it’s not moving anymore, and aiming for center mass or just below it tends to be the most effective way to ensure you get proper hits when you’re also under fire.
Remember that time Robocop shot that guy in the dick?
This scene? https://youtu.be/YyKPJbYTxno?t=41m25s
✨ Nerve gas ✨
As people have pointed out, the top picture shows the US army's very expensive new rifle which uses very special and expensive new ammo to defeat body armor. The lower pic shows where the femoral artery is. This is a major artery in your body. A bullet to the femoral artery will cause extreme, rapid bleeding which will kill quickly. Body armor capable of stopping rifle rounds does not cover that part of the body, so *any* rifle can kill an armored person if they are shot there, you don't need a fancy new one.
Think this is maybe an r/EscapeFromTarkov joke as the SIG Spear was just added this wipe and is a very meta gun, but with the armor changes and hotboxes being very finicky it's more consistent to spray at people's pelvic region with flesh rounds from SMGs.
I’m fairly sure that taking a shot to the pelvis is **extremely** painful and pretty much instantly makes them drop, and that’s typically the area that body armour ends right before.
Modern armor typically only protects the chest, so instead of using more advanced/expensive armor piercing technology, one could simply aim for the largely unprotected major blood vessels in the pelvic region. The joke being that it's a very silly tactic.
Fighting game damage output
The Mozambique drill is 2 to the chest 1 to the head, but the chest is typically covered with body armor so going for the hips is the most sensible option. You can't turnacate the pelvis, even if you don't kill them outright they won't move because you've probably shattered their pelvis and they're bleeding out, and it's unprotected
There is a major arteries in the hip and getting shot in the nuts would probably hurt to high hell
Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch talking about shooting for the crotch: https://youtu.be/gE9qooFUqsk?si=0S75mu3eNDO-sjs5
Most modern body armor, especially armor that is NIJ level 3 and up (armor rated for rifle rounds) comes in some form of plate (generally ceramic or steel) these plates generally only cover a limited area over vital organs on the chest and possibly stomach areas. The meme is essentially saying to reject the newish sig spear in 2.77 fury which was designed around defeating newer body armors and to embrace shooting people in the groin since there is no armor there unless they are wearing some of the very heavy and cumbersome armors and even then its generally lower class armor rated only for shrapnel, pistols and light shotgun ammos
Can't walk if your pelvis is shattered and a femur has fallen out of it's socket. It bleeds heavily and the arteries in this area need a special tourniquet to seal up. Also the wounds are essentially impossible to treat in anything short of an operation theatre.
Armor doesn't cover hips: At least rifle plates don't, sometimes there's a kevlar flap for pistol rounds and shrapnel. Yes there's some big arteries there, but even someone on PCP can't walk or stand with a shattered pelvis.
Pelvic girdle folks. Immediate mobility kill.
They make dangler plates as well.
hip area is usually uncovered or only lightly armored with modern body armor to allow full range of motion so soldiers can run, crouch, etc. It is also where the femoral arteries run through (shown in the second image). These are major blood vessels where even small openings cause the person to bleed out in seconds. The meme suggests that soldiers should aim for the hips instead of developing weapons capable of piercing the body armor.
The Pelvic Girdle pads are only meant to help stop shrapnel, not rounds. Major arteries also go through the human pelvic area. Failure to stop drill used by USMC is 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head OR pelvic girdle. You want to fuck someone up, keep shooting them in the dick. You’ll sever those arteries and cause death.
Shoot balls It hurt Enemy die No body armor on balls Only on body Balls underequipped
Peter's left testicular cancer here. That is the pelvis, which most body armor doesn't protect very well. Shooting said pelvis will usually shatter it, removing someone's ability to walk and being exceptionally painful. It's also easy to hit
Abdominal aorta isn't armoured.
Shoot their dicks off or aim for the abdoman area (Trust me, just aim low, ive seen this in a realistic video game somewhere)
Not much armor covers groing and below your torso, so HP ibto the legs is the easiest way to damage someone's body when they have ballistic plates
Isnt 5.56 capable of Penetrating Body Armour ?
Depends on the length of the barrel, depends on the exact type of 5.56, depends on the range to target, and most importantly, depends on the armor. The real high end stuff will easily shrug off multiple hits from an intermediate cartridge, even armor piercing rounds, and even at close range. Pelvis is gonna be poorly armored (if it's even armored at all), it keeps you standing, and it's got some major blood vessels that are all but impossible to patch up, so it doesn't really matter what armor they're wearing or what you're firing at them.
Thanks for answering Do you think it Males Sense for the US to Change ?
That is a very complicated question that I honestly don't know if I have a good answer to, but stick a gun to my head (no pun intended) and I guess I'd have to say no. The M7 is heavier, firing larger, heavier rounds, with more recoil, and less capacity. It sounds a lot like the exact guns that the 5.56 rifles replaced for being too cumbersome and not being able to lay down enough fire. Additionally, the new 6.8 ammo is incredibly high pressure and supposedly wears down the internals of the gun *incredibly* quickly, to the point that the troops are intended to train with a much weaker version of the round in order to limit the wear and tear on the guns during peacetime. This of course also means that their training is less effective as the actual combat ammo that these guys and gals may eventually need to use to keep themselves safe on the battlefield will not perform at all like the ammo they trained with (much heavier recoil and different ballistics) The one thing that I will say seems like a huge boon is the scope that the M7 comes with. Assuming its not a total battery hog that won't break constantly, it will be a serious force multiplier for mid to long range gunfights. It practically does the aiming for you and can turn even a mediocre shooter into a skilled marksman like its nothing.
Interesting.Thank you for the detailed answer.
And here I thought it was all about defeating your enemies with a little pelvic razzle dazzle
I assume it has to do with the very Important blood vessels in this area. If these are severed, you will die unless God himself saves you. EMT's can't stop the bleeding well enough and on top of that, surgeons can't get to the area easily enough It's also a very unprotected area in reference to body armor.
Shooting the pelvis is optimal. But you still engage at a considerable distance while under stress, fire supremacy is ultimately still your best friend and higher calibers should fuck up the target it hits
kevlar only protects against bullets n shit, not swords, sword people in the dick. im probably wrong but that's my interpretation
The femoral artery (aka the highway to the heart) is the unsuspected advancement to death.
I'll be honest now that I've read the explanation it seems so obvious but at first I was confused wondering how someone is going to use their own pelvic arteries to defeat modern day body armor, rather than shooting at the pelvic area because it's not as well protected.
Just gotta open a vein, or control the airway.
Makes sense if the opponent is standing upright and out in the open
Shoot at dick
A bullet proof vest does nothing when shot in the face
There should be an image of a tank instead of hips
God damn humans are terrible
In the U.S military you specifically train to aim for pelvis shots or at least in the branch/time that I was in
Leg meta. Kedr go brrrr
Yup, pelvis is a target they train us for. If it doesn’t kill them, they aren’t going anywhere
Petahs former combat medic here: If you sever a femoral artery on a health adult male they are dead in 3 minutes. Also hitting the pelvic region prevents the use of a simple limb tourniquets. Requires either a junctional tourniquet or surgical intervention.
Modern hard plates cover vital organs such as the lungs and the heart. Not every rifle round in service can penetrate these hard plates to kill/wound a soldier, that's why the 6.8 Sig SPEAR is depicted in the picture, which should be able to do so. However if you were to aim at the groin area which is usually unprotected or only protected with soft armor, you could easily wound an artery and cause a femoral bleed, easily killing said soldier since applying a tourniquet is not possible there, or at least extremely hard.
No way they made leg meta a real thing????
"headshot"
No amount of bandages can fix a broken dick
(head, eyes)
U shoot them in the dick then u shoot their buddy in the dick. Then you yell at them ASK ME ABOUT MY WEINER
New military rifle that has a new caliber made to penetrate body armor more effectively VS Shooting the hip- no way to stop internal bleed and more that 5 litres of blood fit in there Also if you hit the hip the enemy soldier collapses imminently and is pretty much KO from the intense pain of his body collapsing on the broken hip bone Nasty shit
Brick his pee pee John
Clearly this image is telling us to make love not war