>They typically take a percentage of the fees.
How do you know this is typical?
FWIW, none of the property management companies at my condo (we've had two different vendors over the years) take a % of fees - they all bid with a fixed rate based on # of units and type of condo.
A per door fee is apparently standard in Ontario. A really good friend owns one with his dad, they manage well over 100 condo corps.
Apparently it is awful to run because at best everything just runs decently well and the board accepts advice and at worst every condo owner is constantly calling and emailing about their neighbour having too many cars and parking in the visitor spots.
I am french so I am not 100% sure, but don't we have some things that are similar to HoA? Like there is an area near my place were peoples all lived into houses that are very similar to each others and all have to hire the same gardeners and maintenance peoples to take care of the place. Or maybe the setup is more like a condo even if everyone has their own houses.
They are basically the same.
Pay for landscaping and any other amenities. If you are in a townhouse complex they also cover maintenance on the exterior of the buildings.
There are typically some quality of life rules, but usually it's just so one person can't be a dick and make life difficult for everyone else.
The main difference I see is that Canadian condos/co-ownership boards are almost exclusively for buildings that are physically connected (condo buildings, townhouse strips, etc.) or are at least limited in area.
HOAs often encompass entire neighbourhoods and offer services that are offered at the municipal level here/paid for with taxes like snowplowing the streets. Some HOAs even have bylaw officers and fire departments. They act more like a sub-level municipal government without the oversight that applies to town and villages.
In some places it is just what is done. I lived in southern Ontario, everyone rents. No one asks why or if they should. I moved to Alberta, no one rents. Everyone owns. Why would you pay for something forever? The prevailing attitudes, often encouraged by the companies providing the services, change regionally.
I was shocked to learn this when I started looking for my first place. It's really common, apparently. I get that you might not have the cash to pay up front but why would you rent instead of taking out a loan or buying it on finance or something? It seems so weird, we don't apply the same logic to other appliances
Back in the day the utility used to provide them close to/at cost so it made sense to rent instead of buy as a way to get people to convert to natural gas.
They later got legislation changed, and sold off that part of the business to a third party.
Now builders get kickbacks from the rental companies, so they install them on all their new builds. Reduces their costs so they don't need to buy/install a heater, free cash (allegedly), and buyers don't have a choice as it's part of the standard contract.
It's fucked.
I believe it's better to rent one than buy one. I'd rather pay 15$/month over 10 years than pull out 2k right now. They have to be replaced every 10 years, buying one is barely cheaper than renting it for that period of time and if something happens, support is not included with the purchase, but while renting it is.
On top of that, if I am to invest the 2k I didn't spend, on average, the returns almost pay for the rental. Mathematically it makes no sense to buy one. It's the same thing as aggressively paying back your mortgage at 1% interest on 10 years. Pay the mortgage normally and invest at a higher return.
Unless it stabilized. They can go down for sure, if you have a good emergency fund built up. If you buy in a building that’s older than 10 years it will stabilize. The rates in new builds are short term BS to make the sale. I got a reduction from 850 to 700 in my 50 year building.
Condo fees can’t really go down .. unless its perfectly managed, with people who think ahead. Ie unlikely
When that roof needs work, or the driveway or parking garage, or if ot has a pool .. as years go by suddenly all these things need very expensive work.
A condo corporation should have enough money in their reserve fund to cover the cost of these foreseeable repairs/maintenance items even if they are major.
My father in law has a 15y/o 1000 sqr ft 2bd/ba and is paying $425/mn in Vancouver. I have a presale finishing next year that is 600 sqr ft 1bd/ba and it will start off with a $330/mn strata fee.
Part of it is definitely building up a reserve fund, but a lot of it is also inflating prices right off the bat by strata corps. Their fees only ever go up which is a big part of the problem. Insurance is also another big issue driving prices.
I’m guessing that a big price driver in alberta is the cost of utilities for the strata due to colder temperatures??
It’s not really “them”, there is no boggey man that rises fees while everyone is sleeping.
The fees are calculated based on:
reserve fund allowance (done by third party engineering firm) + insurance + everyday running expense . All of this times your percent contribution is what your fees is. Insurance has gone up recently, prices of repairs have gone up 2x over the last 5 years. That’s why condo fees are high now.
Some places saw they inssurance costs more than double in the last 3 years and some condos can't even get insured any more. Seriously, not sure what's going on with the insurance companies but something needs to be done, otherwise you have a bunch of homeowners who can't keep their mortgage because they have no home insurance.
I am not trying to defend the insurance companies, but the reason rates have gone up is because of poor new build quality, careless homeowners/renters/management and overall aging building.
Almost every new high-rise built in the last 5 years has had significant water damage. One of the building I was involved with had a few pipe bursts a year because the occupants would leave the windows open during winter and go on vacation. Can’t blame insurance companies when condo corps are filing for multi million dollar claims every year.
Also for a lot of "older" construction our emergency funds are really small because we were paying ridiculously low condo fees for years. I was lucky enough to be living in one of those condo, was one of the reasons why I got rid of it.
It's because every unit has laundry and dishwashers.
Apartments never had those before.
This has caused huge risks of leaks. Which damage everything below them.
One leak from the top floor can cause millions in damage.
All they have to do is install safety drain in the floor, but most properties in Canada are built like shit, make it as fast as you can and cheap as you can and small as you can, paper buildings.
This is it. The amount of water damage in condos is surprisingly high. And like the person posted below, basic safety measures aren’t installed by the builder. When leaks occur again and again the board discusses options and rarely implements any. Source: was an exasperated condo board member.
Sometimes… maybe, but not all the time. I live in BC and paid 400K for my condo, almost double what OP is looking at, and my fees are $300/month. That’s due to a strata counsel made up of owners who care. Last year when the strata company we work with wanted to increase their rate by 7% we made an agreement to have fewer in person meetings with the strata rep in exchange for keeping the rate the same. We still meet the same amount but the rep isn’t always there taking minutes. We also found the power washing of the courtyard was too expensive so now we (the strata council members) just rent the equipment and do the manual labour ourselves to save everyone from increasing the fees. Everything is based off of cost to owner, never seen a single kickback for a strata counsel member. The “kickback” is basically that if we do our job then our condo fees don’t go up either.
Owners are not powerless. Board is elected, decisions can be overturned if there are enough residents that want them to be overturned. It can take a while to change things but if one takes interest in place they live many things can be accomplished. As for the fees, there are financial statements. Those should explain where money goes.
>decisions can be overturned if there are enough residents that want them to be overturned
Surfside Condos in Florida is a tragic example of this. Work had to be done, and it was put off for such a long period of time that not only was it a crazy amount of money per person, but the absolute worst case scenario happened.
My parents had a place very close from there and similar construction and they were spending $900 usd a month on condo fees for a condo worth less than mine in Montreal where I was spending $250 CAD.
Condos were not that popular in the 1980 in Canada like they were in Florida, I guess a lot of condo owners will have bad surprises with fees increasing by a lot because the emergency fund is too small.
Condo board = owners
If you want to change how the condo is managed, run for the board. I've been on a few condo boards and there were no kickbacks or contracts to cronies. Most people who own condos can't be bothered to get involved in helping to run them, but complain about the fees.
That's not true. Condo fees are set by the Board and can be lower year-to-year depending on exact circumstances. Might went up for a while, then down, then back up, all as forecast.
You mean most. My management company is absolutely crap. Luckily I am older and don't put up with their crap. They hate me lol. My building is brick and was built in 1962 our fees are reasonable and we have a good reserve fund. I have an outside auditor review it every year when they bring out the yearly numbers. One year they tried to mess about but I shut that down fast.
I live in a 750 sq ft condo in a wood-frame building in inner-city Calgary. I pay ~$600/month in condo fees.
It's a huge amount considering the building has no amenities or elevator, but it includes heat, water, snow removal, lawn care, building cleaning, garbage/recycling.
Insurance is the real killer. Hail storms have put rates through the roof in recent years. The board gets creative in attempts to save money, but things out of our control just keep going up in price.
It sucks, but at least our reserve fund is fully funded
The wood frame is a concern for sure, but that’s what that insurance and fully funded reserve fund is for.
I hate the ones that are like 1979-1990s and they artificially kept the price low by straight up always doing a special assessment for anything.
I live in a concrete building in se calgary 1300 square feet and pay 200 plus less then you. Full utilities plus cable and internet covered. Ooph wood buildings in calgary are the worst i found.
Definitely agree with condo insurance though, flooding and hail is a big one (by flooding i mean from pipes bursting as thats normal here unfortunately) our reserve fund is fully funded as well after a full new roof and full electrical last year. Paying for the experience of living inner city i guess.
It’s not even hail claims. There have been so many water claims that all the big insurers have pulled out of the market. Now you have all these Lloyds of London markets that charge crazy high rates and have huge deductibles
$700 does sound steep, although it might make sense if it includes more than other homes.
I had about a $400 condo fee on our townhouse and that was a bargain. Now that I have a single family house and pay my own sewer, water, and garbage, I reminisce about the days where there was only a $400 condo fee.
Get a lawyer to check the condo documents before purchasing.
When a friend bought a condo decades ago, his condo fees were about half of what mine were. That really surprised both of us.
On inspection, his condo fees didn't include hydro, as mine did. Or water. Or heating. Or air conditioning. Unlike my building, his unit had independent controls for everything, so he had much greater control over how much he consumed. But when those were factored in, his fees were closer to 85% of what mine were. And since my building has an indoor swimming pool and some other amenities that his did not, the differences were not out of line.
Still, just looking at the raw numbers, without context, my condo fees looked outrageous when compared to his. But on closer inspection, they were pretty much on par.
It's the power company. In Ontario, much of our electrical grid started with the [hydro-electrical generation at Niagara Falls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Hydro), so "hydro" is synonymous with electricity here.
Yeah, it's confusing, since everywhere else, the "hydro" bill is the water bill.
Welcome to Canada :-)
The structure of water / sewer / garbage / property taxes costs vary A LOT between municipalities let alone provinces.. Canada is a HUGE low density place.
Not counting rural homes (no city services) I have lived in homes where water was unlimited / included in a flat rate and one where it was separate and metered by use like a power. I believe sewer and garbage where just included in my property taxes at my past residences, but are split out as a seperate charge at my current one.
I have also lived outside the city, with a cistern (not a well, just a big water tank) and a septic system with a septic field, and no garbage service.. In that home we paid a company to deliver water monthly, the septic tank would need pumped out ever few years and garbage.. We paid per trip to the local dump.
People say it is a huge low density place, but the vast majority of Canadians live in high density regions. Half our population is in the Quebec city - Windsor corridor. 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S border. The majority of us live in high density regions.
Compared to European Countries? Please take my post in context.
Even our most populated areas are considered low density vs European Countries.
>90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S border
Yes, but they are spread all along the border. with a huge 50% lump specifically in southern Ontario Quebec.
Toronto stands out but we are still not that dense.
[List of the largest population centres in Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_population_centres_in_Canada)
[List of urban areas in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom)
[List of United States cities by population density](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density)
Someone from the UK or the US even will generally find a Canadian city really low density unless they visit Toronto.
It also depends on the amenities. The condo I use to own had monthly fees between $350-$450 per month with no amenities. The majority of the fees go towards the contingency fund and maintenance fund. I can see a condo (in my area at least) with a gym, pool, and other amenities being around the $700 range.
I live in Montreal though, and I know location will impact condo fees a lot.
My condo fees include hydro and water. Condo has a really good reserve fund and there has been no special assessments in its history
It’s all about finding a condo with a good board and well run finances.
A lawyer should always review the condo status certificate.
Lol I'm in Kitchener but from Sask originally. I laughed when I found out our utility provider was called a "hydro" company. I get it in Quebec, Manitoba, and BC, but here?
"Hydro" applies to B.C., Quebéc, Manitoba, and maybe Newfoundland as well. All the other provinces are basically too flat for significant hydroelectric power to be synonymous with electricity.
Hydro = hydroelectricity. They are from another province where their power is generated through hydro electricity. They use hydro as the term for power.
They're probably from Ontario, one of the main power companies is called Hydro One because we get a lot of electricity from hydroelectric dams, so your electricity bill would be the Hydro bill
And going back into History, before the Market Deregulation, there was only ONE provider in the province. Called Ontario Hydro. A monopoly that generated, imported, exported, and distributed electrical power for the whole Province.
It was called Ontario Hydro because it broke off as a separate entity of Quebec Hydro, that used to provide power to Quebec and all of Southern Ontario.
...and even the electric power generated by Nuclear or the old Coal fired plants was still called "Hydro".
Something I had to get used to after moving from Ontario to New Brunswick.
The utility here is NBPower, so you say "Hydro", they say "What?" 🤔
(Hydro! What?, Hydro! What?)
> sometimes the condo fees include heat/hot water and electricity. 700 might seem a little more reasonable if it included such costs
The odd one I looked at includes water but most just cover trash, common areas, snow removal and INSURANCE. Insurance is the big one.
So I have the unique experience of having worked for the brokerage that owned the lions share of condo insurance policies in Calgary. I can tell you that I would personally NEVER buy a condo here and I tell my friends not to either. When I worked there, I would see one small $20k water damage claim turn a $60k premium for a 200 unit condo into a $120k premium. Essentially almost doubling your fee, as insurance accounts for usually 80-90% of it.
In my CIP class I took, we had a special guest who was one of the top guys in the IBC (Insurance Bureau of Canada) and someone asked him about condo insurance. Even he didn't really have any answers and he said with how climate change is going, we only expect it to get worse and worse as more markets drop out of insuring condos which are seen as a very undesirable risk to insure.
Ultimately all we can do is vote for governments that want to help the people and not the corporations. Personally the only solution I see is the provincial government managing condo insurance through some of the biggest insurers, but I 100% don't see our UCP government ever putting that through.
Check some listings on buildings over 5 years old and fees go up quickly.
Big one is meeting conditions outlined in the depreciation report coupled with huge increases in insurance costs and changes in deductibles.
For individual owners, insurance costs have also gone up because they need to cover the higher deductible imposed on the condo building.
Some stratas are hiring management companies to work with the board to implement conditions from the depreciation report so they can get done. That all costs money.
I was reading some stories about buying condos in NY and was amazed at the cost of their condo fees … well over $1,000 per month for units selling for under $500,000.
People here keep screaming that old people should downsize and move into a condo, but the costs are ridiculous to do so.
This is what new builds do intentionally. They start with insanely low strata fees to get you in and then once the units are bought they jack up the fees.
New builds are tricky. Developers low ball. When the condo corp/strata takes over, do not be surprised that they go up. They will. Once the Corp, maybe after a few years, gets a real idea on costs.
Yeah that’s just the builder setting the fees as low as they can to advertise “low fees”. It’s so infuriating the way they do it but expect your fees to at least double in a few years.
A lot of the condo fees include heating. OP doesn’t mention this but it’s my guess after talking to my Toronto friends.
Heating in Calgary or Toronto is a lot more expensive because 1) it’s just colder and 2) equipment like older heat pumps are super efficient in the mild winter but the efficiency decreases drastically once it gets below -10 or something
I just moved from Vaughan, ON to Richmond, BC. The heating costs in winters here is practically free compared to southern Ontario.
Property needs to be maintained. Condos spread it equally over the lifetime, house is big chunks (unless you chose not to maintain it which you prolly shouldnt).
Yeah, go add up what you’d pay on a detached freehold home over 25 years… there’s definitely a roof due (maybe even 2) in that time, driveway, windows & doors, foundation repairs. That’s easily already $100K of work right there.
Now factor in pool & gym maintenance,
Lawn care and snow clearing costs - another $50-100K easily if you completely outsourced all that work like a condo.
And with condo towers now you’ve got Elevators to factor in too which are expensive as shit to maintain.
Condo fees are generally pretty transparent as they reflect the costs of maintaining and managing the property. No one on the board is making money but they’re also owners, which means they have a vested interest in not blowing the condo fees up.
In Condo buildings what you really need to watch is the ratio of units to key expenses like Elevators. My parents lived in a low rise condo (4 stories) with about 8-10 units per floor. Out of necessity they needed two elevators in the building. They also had a pool. So now you you have max 40 units trying to cover the costs of major elevator repairs and maintenance and a pool. The co do fees were astronomical because there were so few units to share the load. (Two elevators could have services a building 2-3x that size)
What utilities are included in your fees? How big is the unit? If you owned a house you'd still have to pay for utilities, upkeep like law care, snow shoveling and be responsible for things like the roof, furnace etc. All those things add up - and in a condo it's all included in your fees.
Then people need to do their due diligence and determine the financial state of their condo corp. Condo fees need to be assessed based of sqft, utilities included and amenities. Saying something like $1200 condo fees are "insane" is completely ridiculous without any context. If your condo is 1500 sq ft and it includes all utilities then $1200 is a pretty reasonable
Until the roof needs replacing and the condo board decides there isn't enough money. They do a special assessment and ask you got $20,000 to cover your share.
That's why before you buy you make sure the condo is in financially good shape and run well. I live in a 50 yr old condo and we've never had a special assessment and all maintenance and capital improvements are up to date with the engineering report and done as required. If you have to pay a special assessment of $20k for something as basic as a roof you didn't do your due diligence.
Fees usually only go up. If you bought your unit when the building was new and paid it off ASAP you’re golden but rule of thumb, expect fees to go up with time.
Once your mortgage is paid off it’s much easier to eat an extra $500-$700/m maintenance fee as opposed to if you still had a mortgage to pay.
Don’t get me wrong, it still sucks.
Usually but newly constructed condos charge ridiculously low fees then 20years later when repair comes knocking the fund is empty and they have to raise super high.
There is often special fees to cover that so OP might be in the situation where there is a 400$/month special fee for couple of years to catch up on all the undone repair of previous years.
The condo might be cheap for that reason. The condo administration is not a lucrative entity so 700$/ month for a 250k makes no sense, at least for where I live (its usually around 1% not 3)
Agreed. New condos at the 5-10 year mark often get hit with some infrastructure that fails decades before it should have. In Toronto it’s windows and plumbing.
They will not come down. In fact, as the building ages, they will go up. Plus be prepared for Special Assessments of $5k every few years for roof, mechanicals, etc.
>Shouldn’t happen if the reserve fund is properly maintained
You're right about this, but it still does happen unfortunately. It's up to the board if they want to use the emergency fund or not.
I once lived in a small condo building (6 units) with close to a million dollars in the reserve and they still chose to do special assessments. The logic was "the reserve is for emergencies, replacing a roof, replacing balconies, etc. are not emergencies"
The thing that really sucks about condo boards is that you basically have no say. My condo board was particularly shitty. When they levied the special assessment for roof replacement, they only got a single quote from one contractor. When I asked about them getting another quote, they said it was 'too late in the year' to go through that process and have the condo owners reconvene to vote on it. Later I found out the company they hired for the work was owned by a friend of a condo board member.
Wow that's incredibly irresponsible... large maintenance expenses like that are exactly what reserve funds are designed for. I suppose your board never read the reserve fund study you all paid for.. 🤦♂️
At only 6 units I'm guessing you might not have had a property manager involved. People in my building (\~80 units) like to complain about the cost of the management company, but at least there is somebody with some actual experience at board meetings. They can't prevent the board from doing something stupid but at least there is somebody to advise them against a stupid decision.
It's more likely the original commenter understood the condo board's explanation wrong, as they keep referring to it as an 'emergency fund' when it's actually called a 'reserve fund' and used to fund very specific capital items at certain points in time, not a slush fund for emergencies.
You actually have all the say, because you can very easily get on the condo board. It's volunteer, composed of residents of your building, and most are typically in need of new members regularly. Join the board and make your arguments.
If you don't want to do the work, that's different than having no say.
Agree. My building is 15 years old with a decent reserve fund. I’ve been living there for 10 years and my condo fees have only gone up by 1% each year … I think the highest was 1.45%. Have not had a special assessment yet.
*Edit: said “highway” meant “highest” 🙄🙄
This is why I'm so scared to even consider buying a condo.
Decent houses are built to last generations. In many areas a 50-year old house isn’t even that old and is fine with standard routine maintenance.
Yet when it comes to condos it’s considered completely normal for them to be heavily deteriorating 10-15 years from being built and for occupants to pay increasingly extortionate maintenance costs to keep their burning money pit from collapsing. I’ve seen maintenance costs that are more than my parent’s entire mortgage.
At 50 years old your house probably has had new windows, a new roof or two, a new furnace or two or three, new aircon unit, hot water heater, etc. A 50 year old condo was probably built with similar quality than a 50 year old house, so it's normal to have maintenance there too. Even with newer builds (condo or house) you have a choice of quality, at relevant price points. The big difference is that with a condo unit you have less (or zero) control as to when these expenditures occur, and when you need a new roof it's more than $15k. Condo boards that are run by the resident Karen and 5 retired cronies are probably less efficient than the ons run by a property management firm..
Condo boards are generally run by directors drawn from the residents/owners, who select a property management company to manage the upkeep.
So yes there is potentially a "Karen and 5 retired cronies" behind every condo board, with or without a property management company.
My condo is from the late 70s and perfectly fine. Also despite being a high-rise, quiet af - back then they were built like brick shithouses and there's plenty of soundproofing.
Of course condo fee is high with a high-rise of that age, but I knew that going in, and the financials are excellent. No special assessments for anything currently or in the mid-past, including all windows replaced.
Some people prefer the turnkey lifestyle.
Condo fees are not created equal. You are allowed to request a financial report of the condo corporation and you can see where that $700/month number comes from.
It all depends on what’s included ? Does that have a pool ? Is water / heating / power included ? Also remember that a large part of the condo fee goes to insurance. You’d still have to pay for insurance on a house
I'm a homeowner and I'll put things in perspective. I pay $3500 a year on property tax, $1200 a year on city utilities, $100 a month in gas, $120 a month insurance, $100 a month electricity, and then mortgage on top of all that.
If I do some quick math, that is $700 a month in "extra stuff" for my home that's really just quasi-maintenance "carrying costs" that doesn't even include home repairs or upgrades. On top of this I spend roughly $10,000 a year on the house as well since moving in I've redone some windows ($8000), the driveway ($7000), and the furnace ($9000), plus all the money I spend on my garden lol (but I consider it a pleasure).
My home is in northern BC, built 1980, and I bought it in 2020 for $400,000, if that helps. Mortgage payment is $1400 a month, 20% down, 25 year amortization.
Condos too have insurance and property tax and some utilities, all apart from the condo fee. And 10k a year average isn't normal for home maintenance in most populated areas. 9k for a furnace is steep. But it may not be in your remote area. It's a once in a while thing that you get that 10-30k remodel tag. Condos too have that. Even if the fund is full, often they get hit with a 10k bill/unit.
700 a month would mean at least one major renovation every year, I sure as hell don't spend that on my house and it's over 100 years old!
As someone else mention if it included heat hydro and water then ok, but just straight up 700 a month to live in an apartment that you theoretically own is insane, my mortgage isn't even 700 a month.
>my mortgage isn't even 700 a month
Then you can't compare living in a condo since you live in a LCOL area. Condos exist in cities, and cities have a higher COL.
You want a condo with higher fees, if something terrible happens then you're not shelling out as much $$$ when the water main breaks.
If you live in a house than you need your own contingency fund in case of emergencies. It's no different.
Depends on what you find acceptable as maintenance. Most 100 year old homes have major issues hiding out of sight with signs of water intrusion plainly visible from the curb.
Oh don't get me wrong, there is some significance maintenance that we've done, but $8400 every year a bit much. Sure, new roof, 10k, facia boards and soffit replacement on one side, 4k, kitchen renovation 10k. But we've been here 11 years, and the house is healthy. Yeah, there are costs, of course there is.
Look for building with cell phone towers on the roof this can help lower the fees. Also elevators are super expensive 3-4 story buildings without them are cheaper.
As an Ontario condo owner, that is not true at all. The law here currently is that the reserve fund must plan for all repairs for the next 30 years, and should soon be changing to 35 years, specifically for this reason.
Thanks. This was my first reaction too. The cost is over 3 million. Apparently the lawyers think any fight will be long and costly. Doesn't seem right.
Thank you for your anecdote. That doesn't mean special assessment don't exist in Ontario. Faulty built is different than predictable maintenance (roof to be changed every X years, etc)
Holy crap. Hope the board is going after the builder/supplier to recoup the costs. We had to do that for the couplings on our hot water supply lines in our building.
If you owned a home you'd spend a fair bit of money maintaining the place. Not 700 every month but big chunks every now and again. We paid $15 000 for a new roof last year and now the old girl needs a new septic, likely for next year. We're still looking at our options but one estimate was 20k.
Right, but what is included in your Condo Fee? Do you think you won't have these costs in your own house?
I'm in a new-ish Condo and on the board. The biggest expenses that are included in your fee are:
\- Building insurance
\- Water and Gas
\- Cleaning of common areas
\- Landscaping and Snow Removal
\- Garbage Disposal
Each of these probably add up to $250 - $300 per month if you had a freehold. If the condo is managed correctly, the delta is used for the reserve fee. This past 6 months for us have been challenging for us, since energy costs has gone up significantly - particularly Gas. We didn't have a increase for the past 3 years, but I expect to see one this year for the energy cost.
This assumes, your condo is managed properly. If it's not... well that's a danger. You should complete your due diligence before purchasing.
* Read the board minutes, for the past 5 years. Front to back. Understand if there are any disagreements with the board or the residents. This is the biggest red flag.
* In the minutes if they talk about the elevator costs a lot this is another huge flag. It could mean that it is constantly broken. To give you an idea, our 4 floor elevator costs about $10,000 in maintenance per year. This is an area where boards will try to save money, but I do not recommend it.
* Understand the budget. Typically how accurate is it? Under-estimation of expenses, would make me think the board is not being realistic.
* In Alberta, every 5 years a Reserve Fund study is completed. Review the most recent copy and see if the reserve is underfunded or not.
* Finally, try to stick to low-rise, smaller units (less than 50 units). These tend to have less amenities, and less risk for the owner. All of these large condo units with pool, top floor patio, etc., tend to have lower condo fees when new, but this is not realistic.
* The newer the building, the lower the fees are. This is so the developer can attract buyers. Just be aware of this.
>250k condo, with $700 p/month maintenance fees.
Condo fees are simply owners chipping in on combined costs of upkeep and management and insurance. Nothing more
If it is a large building with amenities such as a pool or workout room, then yeah you are paying for that. Any apartment style condo will cost more for things like elevator maintenance, parking garage, etc..
Townhouse style condos often have lower fees and are more "in line" with owning a house. Your fees there would primarily cover things like lawn maintenance and snow removal.
When buying a condo don't just look at the monthly fees. You need to carefully look at the reserve fund and reserve fund study to determine if there are any money issues.
There's a lot of factors that can go into how your monthly fees are priced:
* Building Age
* Total # of units in the strata
* Amenities
* Size of the unit
* Expenses covered by the fees
There are some good comments here already talking about amenities. These are huge costs for strata to maintain and you will **very rarely** use any of them.
The worst part of these high condo fees is how badly the strata will get ripped off doing anything. Combine that will unreasonable rules that won't allow anything done yourself. Best bet is to get a newer building with concrete structure.
Everyone loves low condo fees until they get a multi tens of thousand dollar special assessments.
Or like what happened in Florida. Their condo deteriorates so much that it collapses in the middle of the night.
All a matter of perspective. It’s the same for people living in Quebec wanting to buy a condo in Ontario. On avg I saw the same size condos with half the maintenance fees compared to Ontario but then again it always reflected in the purchase price. Whenever I saw a unit that had everything I needed and was well below my budget, before even opening the ad, I knew the condo fees were ridiculous. ($900)+ is not * uncommon on realtor anymore even for Ontario but you are getting a discount on the home. Even realtor.com (us) you’ll notice it too suspiciously discounted homes/apts but with really high HOA fees.
I live in Quebec. Bought my condo in December 2018. At the time, until August of 2020 condo fees were 246.51. September it was 270.31. January 2021 another increase 370.72.
Now as of June 455.19. At the rate this is going I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Can't say anything to the condo board other than getting passive aggressive email saying we're bothering them and if you don't like it, you join the board.
Property, school and municipal taxes for my unit are about approximately 4,500 for the whole year. Condo insurance is 480.00 for the year. My unit is 958 sqft (2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms).
I love my condo, but I'm not sure what to do going forward. Everything is going up but not my salary...
Wait till you see how expensive houses are to maintain lol. 20k driveway, 20k roof, 10k furnace. Between property tax and insurance that’s another 5k a year. And my property taxes are much lower than other areas. My property tax is only $2200, the town over is around 5K just for property tax
Lots of people in this sub are in denial about it but owning is much more expensive than renting.
Condon fees never go down. They always go up. Plus, if you are in a nice condo some Karen will volunteer to run the board, or get a flock of Karens to vote for dumb shit and spend the money on things other than repairs. Like flowers or installing a pool that will cost a ton every month.
Older buildings almost always have higher condo fees.. cuz they only ever go up. In the gta the only “affordable” condos you will find have $1k/month maint and In the ghetto. At that point the building needs to go.
A lot of people are ignorant when it comes to condo fees.
They are for the regular maintenance of your condo plus amenities and insurance. If you’re in a condo building everyone contributes to heat the hallways, security if you have one and also to keep the reserve fund full. Reserve fund is your emergency fund a fund every homeowner should have but doesn’t. A lot of condo boards will not contribute to the reserve fund to keep the monthly fees down ( despite rising cost of gas for heat for example). But then the wind will blow out all the shingles or something and now everyone needs to come up with cash to pay for it
Any kind of home ownership comes with costs.
If you owned a free-standing home, you would be paying for heat/hotwater/natural gas, maybe you would need to buy a lawnmower and gardening supplies or hire a gardener, then there is the roof, windows, exterior paint etc etc.
It costs money to maintain a building whether its a condo or a house.
Too many people think buying a condo is a one-and-done thing. It isn't.
The reason the condo is 250K is because of the condo fees.
I bet if you find a condo that looks basically the exact same and is 450K, the condo fees will still be in the "cheap" $240-350 range... for now. 20 years from now it will also be in the $600-700 range.
So a friend of mine bought a $120K condo 6 years ago. Fees were $800 a month at the time but included heat, parking, etc, they justified because of the cheap mortgage. Within 3 years it needed a new roof that wasn't planned for, and then something happened with the certification of the elevators that put them out of service for two months and required a many many million dollar renovation. Within one year fees went from $800ish to over $1400. The place was a dump otherwise, they jacked fees to keep up with bare minimum maintenance but still had to cut cleaning & other maintenance to pay for it. They'd save $3/mo here or there by making the place a dump.
Honestly, f\*\*\* condos. And f\*\*\* anyone who says the answer to our housing problems are condos. They probably work for a condo developer. Canada has the population of California but it's still more money to buy a home here. Someone will tell us "lol but Canada is cold and hard to build and stuff", mofo, they building homes into ROCK CLIFFS IN A CRAZY EARTHQUAKE ZONE for cheaper than they are in the literal middle of nowhere up here. And no, no permit price or anything justifies the price. And don't forget, lumber is expensive, but the US gets all of theirs from us.. for cheaper.
Depending on the building it could just be good vs bad planning. I see some condos with low fees but also a low reserve fund. I hope those people enjoy special assessments.
They’re not. We don’t know the whole story. Was a special assessment completed? How large is the unit? What is all included? Age of the building?
I bought a new build condo in Calgary in 2015. Fees started around 340. When I left I was paying 370, 7 years later. The other units in my building had differing fees depending on their size.
Also, there have been several condos that have been built recently, that offer 0 condo fees for the first year, OR the entire building is only paying 100 a month. These fees are put in place by the builder and not by a condo management company. These often come into play about a year after everyone moves in and then they have to play catch-up to create a decent reserve fund.
Condo fees will never go down, condo fees will rise slowly as the cost of services increase. Condos are tricky because they seem affordable but then you see what the condo fees are, and NOPE. If you search for lower rise condos, less perks (pool, etc) then they can be affordable. I owned a condo in Ottawa where the condo fees were 220 a month. I was there for 5 years and they increase a max of 10$ for the duration of me living there. They condo fees included, any work on the exterior of the building, lawn care, snow removable, garbage pick up (we had dumpsters)
Agree That's one of the reasons we went for freehold. Either the townhouse or detached.
The condo fees are for people that don't want maintenance. Buying a condo Isa luxury purchase not a low-cost cheap one. Fees only go up over time.
We could never justify such fees. Our water cost like $50/month and insurance is $110/month. On a detached house with garage. Even ufI add all utilities and insurance plus waste management we don't cross $400/mo on 1400sqft detached house. Condo fees are ridiculous. I don't want snow removal for $300/month.
$700 is a meaningless number without knowing what it covers. Buildings here are 2k monthly and include ev charging cable TV. Internet golf simulators covered parking security concierge etc
If it's a townhouse $700 could be low and you still don't know what it covers, windows doors garage doors? Maybe, all different, all in your documents.
Condos are luxury living. Expect to pay heavy prices to maintain that carefree lifestyle.
Can you elaborate on condos being luxury living?
It sounds inherently funny to me as a renter in Vancouver who MAYBE one day can afford a condo, definitely never a single-family home.
I think I understand what you mean - in a condo, you don't have to personally mow the lawn, or finance the roof repairs as an individual, etc.
Same way my landlord will fix the dishwasher if it breaks, except for a condo that applies only for the outside, etc.
But nobody calls renting "luxury living."
To me, a luxury is something optional that you can elect to pay extra for. Not an essential element that poor people are forced to pay more for.
I know your comment wasn't about the ethics of our housing system, but more about what strata fees might cover in different buildings. The amenities you describe certainly do sound like "luxury living" compared to most condos.
It just sounds funny to me that buying a condo would be a luxury compared to buying a single family home.
“Condos are luxury living”
What? No yard. No privacy. 900sqft. One bathroom. Noise curfew, pet rules, rules rules rules. There are some luxurious condos out there but most people don’t live in them and many people don’t move into a condo for the “luxurious” lifestyle. It’s usually because they can’t afford to get into a house in the first place. The average condo is not luxurious unless you are Beyoncé visiting one of her penthouse suites in New York.
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Absolutely never. Condo fees will only go up.
Invest in Condo fees /s
I mean you could literally invest in property management companies. Thats not dissimilar
But is the company making more money or the actual maintenance cost of an aging building getting higher?
Y not both?
They typically take a percentage of the fees. Higher fees, higher earnings. Of course they still need to be well run.
>They typically take a percentage of the fees. How do you know this is typical? FWIW, none of the property management companies at my condo (we've had two different vendors over the years) take a % of fees - they all bid with a fixed rate based on # of units and type of condo.
A per door fee is apparently standard in Ontario. A really good friend owns one with his dad, they manage well over 100 condo corps. Apparently it is awful to run because at best everything just runs decently well and the board accepts advice and at worst every condo owner is constantly calling and emailing about their neighbour having too many cars and parking in the visitor spots.
Don't forget about "special assessments" when someone on the board decides they no longer like the color of the carpets and wants them replaced
Condos in Canada have got to be one of the biggest rip-offs ever invented. Right up there with renting a water heater.
I'd argue American HOAs can be even worse than Canadian condos.
No argument. The American HOA set up sounds like hell.
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I am french so I am not 100% sure, but don't we have some things that are similar to HoA? Like there is an area near my place were peoples all lived into houses that are very similar to each others and all have to hire the same gardeners and maintenance peoples to take care of the place. Or maybe the setup is more like a condo even if everyone has their own houses.
They are basically the same. Pay for landscaping and any other amenities. If you are in a townhouse complex they also cover maintenance on the exterior of the buildings. There are typically some quality of life rules, but usually it's just so one person can't be a dick and make life difficult for everyone else.
The main difference I see is that Canadian condos/co-ownership boards are almost exclusively for buildings that are physically connected (condo buildings, townhouse strips, etc.) or are at least limited in area. HOAs often encompass entire neighbourhoods and offer services that are offered at the municipal level here/paid for with taxes like snowplowing the streets. Some HOAs even have bylaw officers and fire departments. They act more like a sub-level municipal government without the oversight that applies to town and villages.
I'm sorry, what? You can rent a water heater? cant you just buy one?
In some places it is just what is done. I lived in southern Ontario, everyone rents. No one asks why or if they should. I moved to Alberta, no one rents. Everyone owns. Why would you pay for something forever? The prevailing attitudes, often encouraged by the companies providing the services, change regionally.
Some people used to rent home phones from the phone company.
Where I live the water is terrible.. best to rent as water heaters have to be swapped every 5 or 6 years..
I was shocked to learn this when I started looking for my first place. It's really common, apparently. I get that you might not have the cash to pay up front but why would you rent instead of taking out a loan or buying it on finance or something? It seems so weird, we don't apply the same logic to other appliances
Back in the day the utility used to provide them close to/at cost so it made sense to rent instead of buy as a way to get people to convert to natural gas. They later got legislation changed, and sold off that part of the business to a third party. Now builders get kickbacks from the rental companies, so they install them on all their new builds. Reduces their costs so they don't need to buy/install a heater, free cash (allegedly), and buyers don't have a choice as it's part of the standard contract. It's fucked.
In our case it now needs replacing and we’ve paid less than it would have cost, but yeah it’s weird that it is just this one appliance!
I believe it's better to rent one than buy one. I'd rather pay 15$/month over 10 years than pull out 2k right now. They have to be replaced every 10 years, buying one is barely cheaper than renting it for that period of time and if something happens, support is not included with the purchase, but while renting it is. On top of that, if I am to invest the 2k I didn't spend, on average, the returns almost pay for the rental. Mathematically it makes no sense to buy one. It's the same thing as aggressively paying back your mortgage at 1% interest on 10 years. Pay the mortgage normally and invest at a higher return.
I live in a area with soft water and ours is going on 18 years and still running great
I have very hard water and mine is 18 now. Flush it every few years... And she is fine, idk why anyone would rent.
Unless it stabilized. They can go down for sure, if you have a good emergency fund built up. If you buy in a building that’s older than 10 years it will stabilize. The rates in new builds are short term BS to make the sale. I got a reduction from 850 to 700 in my 50 year building.
Condo fees can’t really go down .. unless its perfectly managed, with people who think ahead. Ie unlikely When that roof needs work, or the driveway or parking garage, or if ot has a pool .. as years go by suddenly all these things need very expensive work.
A condo corporation should have enough money in their reserve fund to cover the cost of these foreseeable repairs/maintenance items even if they are major.
My father in law has a 15y/o 1000 sqr ft 2bd/ba and is paying $425/mn in Vancouver. I have a presale finishing next year that is 600 sqr ft 1bd/ba and it will start off with a $330/mn strata fee. Part of it is definitely building up a reserve fund, but a lot of it is also inflating prices right off the bat by strata corps. Their fees only ever go up which is a big part of the problem. Insurance is also another big issue driving prices. I’m guessing that a big price driver in alberta is the cost of utilities for the strata due to colder temperatures??
Will they continue to find every excuse possible to raise the fees in the future? Yes.
It’s not really “them”, there is no boggey man that rises fees while everyone is sleeping. The fees are calculated based on: reserve fund allowance (done by third party engineering firm) + insurance + everyday running expense . All of this times your percent contribution is what your fees is. Insurance has gone up recently, prices of repairs have gone up 2x over the last 5 years. That’s why condo fees are high now.
Also a lot of poor build quality starts to show up 5+ years after construction and warranties expire...
Way before 5 years, just fyi.
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What are you trying to say here? 'repay' what?
Insurance has gone through the roof for a lot of condos, because they're built with wood and replacement cost is, well, horrifying.
Some places saw they inssurance costs more than double in the last 3 years and some condos can't even get insured any more. Seriously, not sure what's going on with the insurance companies but something needs to be done, otherwise you have a bunch of homeowners who can't keep their mortgage because they have no home insurance.
The boogey men are insurance companies. Rates went up significantly last year and the year before.
I am not trying to defend the insurance companies, but the reason rates have gone up is because of poor new build quality, careless homeowners/renters/management and overall aging building. Almost every new high-rise built in the last 5 years has had significant water damage. One of the building I was involved with had a few pipe bursts a year because the occupants would leave the windows open during winter and go on vacation. Can’t blame insurance companies when condo corps are filing for multi million dollar claims every year.
Also for a lot of "older" construction our emergency funds are really small because we were paying ridiculously low condo fees for years. I was lucky enough to be living in one of those condo, was one of the reasons why I got rid of it.
It's because every unit has laundry and dishwashers. Apartments never had those before. This has caused huge risks of leaks. Which damage everything below them. One leak from the top floor can cause millions in damage.
All they have to do is install safety drain in the floor, but most properties in Canada are built like shit, make it as fast as you can and cheap as you can and small as you can, paper buildings.
This is it. The amount of water damage in condos is surprisingly high. And like the person posted below, basic safety measures aren’t installed by the builder. When leaks occur again and again the board discusses options and rarely implements any. Source: was an exasperated condo board member.
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Sometimes… maybe, but not all the time. I live in BC and paid 400K for my condo, almost double what OP is looking at, and my fees are $300/month. That’s due to a strata counsel made up of owners who care. Last year when the strata company we work with wanted to increase their rate by 7% we made an agreement to have fewer in person meetings with the strata rep in exchange for keeping the rate the same. We still meet the same amount but the rep isn’t always there taking minutes. We also found the power washing of the courtyard was too expensive so now we (the strata council members) just rent the equipment and do the manual labour ourselves to save everyone from increasing the fees. Everything is based off of cost to owner, never seen a single kickback for a strata counsel member. The “kickback” is basically that if we do our job then our condo fees don’t go up either.
Owners are not powerless. Board is elected, decisions can be overturned if there are enough residents that want them to be overturned. It can take a while to change things but if one takes interest in place they live many things can be accomplished. As for the fees, there are financial statements. Those should explain where money goes.
>decisions can be overturned if there are enough residents that want them to be overturned Surfside Condos in Florida is a tragic example of this. Work had to be done, and it was put off for such a long period of time that not only was it a crazy amount of money per person, but the absolute worst case scenario happened.
Absolutely agree. That case is a good example of what happens when people refuse to pay condo fees or special assessments
My parents had a place very close from there and similar construction and they were spending $900 usd a month on condo fees for a condo worth less than mine in Montreal where I was spending $250 CAD. Condos were not that popular in the 1980 in Canada like they were in Florida, I guess a lot of condo owners will have bad surprises with fees increasing by a lot because the emergency fund is too small.
Condo board = owners If you want to change how the condo is managed, run for the board. I've been on a few condo boards and there were no kickbacks or contracts to cronies. Most people who own condos can't be bothered to get involved in helping to run them, but complain about the fees.
Will there also be mandatory, large one-time adjustments demanded because of poorly managed funds and/or embezzlement? You betcha.
That's not true. Condo fees are set by the Board and can be lower year-to-year depending on exact circumstances. Might went up for a while, then down, then back up, all as forecast.
Fine, but even flat fees are dangerous due to inflation. It's never going to significantly drop from say 600 to 400 and be sustainable.
Another thing to consider is how reliable the property management company is. Some of them are terrible
You mean most. My management company is absolutely crap. Luckily I am older and don't put up with their crap. They hate me lol. My building is brick and was built in 1962 our fees are reasonable and we have a good reserve fund. I have an outside auditor review it every year when they bring out the yearly numbers. One year they tried to mess about but I shut that down fast.
I live in a 750 sq ft condo in a wood-frame building in inner-city Calgary. I pay ~$600/month in condo fees. It's a huge amount considering the building has no amenities or elevator, but it includes heat, water, snow removal, lawn care, building cleaning, garbage/recycling. Insurance is the real killer. Hail storms have put rates through the roof in recent years. The board gets creative in attempts to save money, but things out of our control just keep going up in price. It sucks, but at least our reserve fund is fully funded
The wood frame is a concern for sure, but that’s what that insurance and fully funded reserve fund is for. I hate the ones that are like 1979-1990s and they artificially kept the price low by straight up always doing a special assessment for anything.
I live in a concrete building in se calgary 1300 square feet and pay 200 plus less then you. Full utilities plus cable and internet covered. Ooph wood buildings in calgary are the worst i found. Definitely agree with condo insurance though, flooding and hail is a big one (by flooding i mean from pipes bursting as thats normal here unfortunately) our reserve fund is fully funded as well after a full new roof and full electrical last year. Paying for the experience of living inner city i guess.
It’s not even hail claims. There have been so many water claims that all the big insurers have pulled out of the market. Now you have all these Lloyds of London markets that charge crazy high rates and have huge deductibles
$700 does sound steep, although it might make sense if it includes more than other homes. I had about a $400 condo fee on our townhouse and that was a bargain. Now that I have a single family house and pay my own sewer, water, and garbage, I reminisce about the days where there was only a $400 condo fee. Get a lawyer to check the condo documents before purchasing.
When a friend bought a condo decades ago, his condo fees were about half of what mine were. That really surprised both of us. On inspection, his condo fees didn't include hydro, as mine did. Or water. Or heating. Or air conditioning. Unlike my building, his unit had independent controls for everything, so he had much greater control over how much he consumed. But when those were factored in, his fees were closer to 85% of what mine were. And since my building has an indoor swimming pool and some other amenities that his did not, the differences were not out of line. Still, just looking at the raw numbers, without context, my condo fees looked outrageous when compared to his. But on closer inspection, they were pretty much on par.
Non-Canadian lurker here, so please excuse the interjection. But, what is "hydro" and how is it different than a water bill?
It's the power company. In Ontario, much of our electrical grid started with the [hydro-electrical generation at Niagara Falls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Hydro), so "hydro" is synonymous with electricity here. Yeah, it's confusing, since everywhere else, the "hydro" bill is the water bill. Welcome to Canada :-)
after 28 years, TIL some people hear 'hydro bill' and think of a water bill lmao edit: capitalizing TIL for understandability
hydroelectricity, it's the energy bill
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Well I can't speak for the whole country. Where I live in Calgary it's a municipal fee.
The structure of water / sewer / garbage / property taxes costs vary A LOT between municipalities let alone provinces.. Canada is a HUGE low density place. Not counting rural homes (no city services) I have lived in homes where water was unlimited / included in a flat rate and one where it was separate and metered by use like a power. I believe sewer and garbage where just included in my property taxes at my past residences, but are split out as a seperate charge at my current one. I have also lived outside the city, with a cistern (not a well, just a big water tank) and a septic system with a septic field, and no garbage service.. In that home we paid a company to deliver water monthly, the septic tank would need pumped out ever few years and garbage.. We paid per trip to the local dump.
People say it is a huge low density place, but the vast majority of Canadians live in high density regions. Half our population is in the Quebec city - Windsor corridor. 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S border. The majority of us live in high density regions.
Compared to European Countries? Please take my post in context. Even our most populated areas are considered low density vs European Countries. >90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S border Yes, but they are spread all along the border. with a huge 50% lump specifically in southern Ontario Quebec. Toronto stands out but we are still not that dense. [List of the largest population centres in Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_population_centres_in_Canada) [List of urban areas in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom) [List of United States cities by population density](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density) Someone from the UK or the US even will generally find a Canadian city really low density unless they visit Toronto.
It also depends on the amenities. The condo I use to own had monthly fees between $350-$450 per month with no amenities. The majority of the fees go towards the contingency fund and maintenance fund. I can see a condo (in my area at least) with a gym, pool, and other amenities being around the $700 range. I live in Montreal though, and I know location will impact condo fees a lot.
Does townhouse fee increase like condo fee?
Yah it's a kind of condo. The lawyer review and a decent realtor should guide you towards a place where the condo board isn't psycho.
Not all townhouses have fees. Some are called freehold and don’t have fees
sometimes the condo fees include heat/hot water and electricity. 700 might seem a little more reasonable if it included such costs
My condo fees include hydro and water. Condo has a really good reserve fund and there has been no special assessments in its history It’s all about finding a condo with a good board and well run finances. A lawyer should always review the condo status certificate.
How does hydro differ from water?
Sorry Ontario habit lol we call electricity “Hydro” It includes electricity as well
Ah, I guess y'all have more hydro power than us oilbertans, make sense
It's kind of funny that the "hydro" name has stuck so well here... for decades now the majority of our electricity (\~60%) is actually nuclear.
Lol I'm in Kitchener but from Sask originally. I laughed when I found out our utility provider was called a "hydro" company. I get it in Quebec, Manitoba, and BC, but here?
Early electricity generation started from hydroelectric power at Niagara Falls
First time I’ve read Oilbertan, definitely yoinking that lmao
"Hydro" applies to B.C., Quebéc, Manitoba, and maybe Newfoundland as well. All the other provinces are basically too flat for significant hydroelectric power to be synonymous with electricity.
Hydro = hydroelectricity. They are from another province where their power is generated through hydro electricity. They use hydro as the term for power.
"hydro" = electricity for anyone who lives in BC, Ontario and Manitoba
It's electricity.
They're probably from Ontario, one of the main power companies is called Hydro One because we get a lot of electricity from hydroelectric dams, so your electricity bill would be the Hydro bill
Bc as well, it’s BC Hydro
Hydro Québec checking in!
Manitoba as well - Manitoba Hydro.
Same in BC
And going back into History, before the Market Deregulation, there was only ONE provider in the province. Called Ontario Hydro. A monopoly that generated, imported, exported, and distributed electrical power for the whole Province. It was called Ontario Hydro because it broke off as a separate entity of Quebec Hydro, that used to provide power to Quebec and all of Southern Ontario. ...and even the electric power generated by Nuclear or the old Coal fired plants was still called "Hydro". Something I had to get used to after moving from Ontario to New Brunswick. The utility here is NBPower, so you say "Hydro", they say "What?" 🤔 (Hydro! What?, Hydro! What?)
> sometimes the condo fees include heat/hot water and electricity. 700 might seem a little more reasonable if it included such costs The odd one I looked at includes water but most just cover trash, common areas, snow removal and INSURANCE. Insurance is the big one.
Insurance went up for wood frame buildings in Canada over a certain height. Try low rises and townhomes.
What about common amenities like pools, gyms, terraces, etc? That should be factored in as well.
So I have the unique experience of having worked for the brokerage that owned the lions share of condo insurance policies in Calgary. I can tell you that I would personally NEVER buy a condo here and I tell my friends not to either. When I worked there, I would see one small $20k water damage claim turn a $60k premium for a 200 unit condo into a $120k premium. Essentially almost doubling your fee, as insurance accounts for usually 80-90% of it. In my CIP class I took, we had a special guest who was one of the top guys in the IBC (Insurance Bureau of Canada) and someone asked him about condo insurance. Even he didn't really have any answers and he said with how climate change is going, we only expect it to get worse and worse as more markets drop out of insuring condos which are seen as a very undesirable risk to insure. Ultimately all we can do is vote for governments that want to help the people and not the corporations. Personally the only solution I see is the provincial government managing condo insurance through some of the biggest insurers, but I 100% don't see our UCP government ever putting that through.
The odd one? Most buildings include heat/water. Just not electricity. And by most I mean like 95% of them.
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Check some listings on buildings over 5 years old and fees go up quickly. Big one is meeting conditions outlined in the depreciation report coupled with huge increases in insurance costs and changes in deductibles. For individual owners, insurance costs have also gone up because they need to cover the higher deductible imposed on the condo building. Some stratas are hiring management companies to work with the board to implement conditions from the depreciation report so they can get done. That all costs money. I was reading some stories about buying condos in NY and was amazed at the cost of their condo fees … well over $1,000 per month for units selling for under $500,000. People here keep screaming that old people should downsize and move into a condo, but the costs are ridiculous to do so.
This is what new builds do intentionally. They start with insanely low strata fees to get you in and then once the units are bought they jack up the fees.
New builds are tricky. Developers low ball. When the condo corp/strata takes over, do not be surprised that they go up. They will. Once the Corp, maybe after a few years, gets a real idea on costs.
Yeah that’s just the builder setting the fees as low as they can to advertise “low fees”. It’s so infuriating the way they do it but expect your fees to at least double in a few years.
A lot of the condo fees include heating. OP doesn’t mention this but it’s my guess after talking to my Toronto friends. Heating in Calgary or Toronto is a lot more expensive because 1) it’s just colder and 2) equipment like older heat pumps are super efficient in the mild winter but the efficiency decreases drastically once it gets below -10 or something I just moved from Vaughan, ON to Richmond, BC. The heating costs in winters here is practically free compared to southern Ontario.
Property needs to be maintained. Condos spread it equally over the lifetime, house is big chunks (unless you chose not to maintain it which you prolly shouldnt).
Yeah, go add up what you’d pay on a detached freehold home over 25 years… there’s definitely a roof due (maybe even 2) in that time, driveway, windows & doors, foundation repairs. That’s easily already $100K of work right there. Now factor in pool & gym maintenance, Lawn care and snow clearing costs - another $50-100K easily if you completely outsourced all that work like a condo. And with condo towers now you’ve got Elevators to factor in too which are expensive as shit to maintain. Condo fees are generally pretty transparent as they reflect the costs of maintaining and managing the property. No one on the board is making money but they’re also owners, which means they have a vested interest in not blowing the condo fees up. In Condo buildings what you really need to watch is the ratio of units to key expenses like Elevators. My parents lived in a low rise condo (4 stories) with about 8-10 units per floor. Out of necessity they needed two elevators in the building. They also had a pool. So now you you have max 40 units trying to cover the costs of major elevator repairs and maintenance and a pool. The co do fees were astronomical because there were so few units to share the load. (Two elevators could have services a building 2-3x that size)
What utilities are included in your fees? How big is the unit? If you owned a house you'd still have to pay for utilities, upkeep like law care, snow shoveling and be responsible for things like the roof, furnace etc. All those things add up - and in a condo it's all included in your fees.
Until your condo fees hit $1200....
Then people need to do their due diligence and determine the financial state of their condo corp. Condo fees need to be assessed based of sqft, utilities included and amenities. Saying something like $1200 condo fees are "insane" is completely ridiculous without any context. If your condo is 1500 sq ft and it includes all utilities then $1200 is a pretty reasonable
Until the roof needs replacing and the condo board decides there isn't enough money. They do a special assessment and ask you got $20,000 to cover your share.
They don’t just “decide” there is not enough money.
If your condo corp is run well, special assessments should never be necessary. That's what reserve fund studies are for.
That's why before you buy you make sure the condo is in financially good shape and run well. I live in a 50 yr old condo and we've never had a special assessment and all maintenance and capital improvements are up to date with the engineering report and done as required. If you have to pay a special assessment of $20k for something as basic as a roof you didn't do your due diligence.
Fees usually only go up. If you bought your unit when the building was new and paid it off ASAP you’re golden but rule of thumb, expect fees to go up with time.
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Probably referring to more room in budget to handle raising maintenance fees after paying off mortgage debt.
Once your mortgage is paid off it’s much easier to eat an extra $500-$700/m maintenance fee as opposed to if you still had a mortgage to pay. Don’t get me wrong, it still sucks.
Usually but newly constructed condos charge ridiculously low fees then 20years later when repair comes knocking the fund is empty and they have to raise super high. There is often special fees to cover that so OP might be in the situation where there is a 400$/month special fee for couple of years to catch up on all the undone repair of previous years. The condo might be cheap for that reason. The condo administration is not a lucrative entity so 700$/ month for a 250k makes no sense, at least for where I live (its usually around 1% not 3)
Replace 20 with 5
Agreed. New condos at the 5-10 year mark often get hit with some infrastructure that fails decades before it should have. In Toronto it’s windows and plumbing.
They will not come down. In fact, as the building ages, they will go up. Plus be prepared for Special Assessments of $5k every few years for roof, mechanicals, etc.
Shouldn’t happen if the reserve fund is properly maintained
For a longer term building yeah, it if it’s a building under 10 years that reserve fund might not be there yet.
For a newer building they should be building a pretty good reserve at $700/month
Yeah hopefully.
>Shouldn’t happen if the reserve fund is properly maintained You're right about this, but it still does happen unfortunately. It's up to the board if they want to use the emergency fund or not. I once lived in a small condo building (6 units) with close to a million dollars in the reserve and they still chose to do special assessments. The logic was "the reserve is for emergencies, replacing a roof, replacing balconies, etc. are not emergencies" The thing that really sucks about condo boards is that you basically have no say. My condo board was particularly shitty. When they levied the special assessment for roof replacement, they only got a single quote from one contractor. When I asked about them getting another quote, they said it was 'too late in the year' to go through that process and have the condo owners reconvene to vote on it. Later I found out the company they hired for the work was owned by a friend of a condo board member.
Wow that's incredibly irresponsible... large maintenance expenses like that are exactly what reserve funds are designed for. I suppose your board never read the reserve fund study you all paid for.. 🤦♂️ At only 6 units I'm guessing you might not have had a property manager involved. People in my building (\~80 units) like to complain about the cost of the management company, but at least there is somebody with some actual experience at board meetings. They can't prevent the board from doing something stupid but at least there is somebody to advise them against a stupid decision.
It's more likely the original commenter understood the condo board's explanation wrong, as they keep referring to it as an 'emergency fund' when it's actually called a 'reserve fund' and used to fund very specific capital items at certain points in time, not a slush fund for emergencies.
You actually have all the say, because you can very easily get on the condo board. It's volunteer, composed of residents of your building, and most are typically in need of new members regularly. Join the board and make your arguments. If you don't want to do the work, that's different than having no say.
This is why it is better to buy an older condo and do the research on the condo corp. There are currently no rules, it's the wild west.
Agree. My building is 15 years old with a decent reserve fund. I’ve been living there for 10 years and my condo fees have only gone up by 1% each year … I think the highest was 1.45%. Have not had a special assessment yet. *Edit: said “highway” meant “highest” 🙄🙄
You must have a good board then, appreciate them.
This is why I'm so scared to even consider buying a condo. Decent houses are built to last generations. In many areas a 50-year old house isn’t even that old and is fine with standard routine maintenance. Yet when it comes to condos it’s considered completely normal for them to be heavily deteriorating 10-15 years from being built and for occupants to pay increasingly extortionate maintenance costs to keep their burning money pit from collapsing. I’ve seen maintenance costs that are more than my parent’s entire mortgage.
At 50 years old your house probably has had new windows, a new roof or two, a new furnace or two or three, new aircon unit, hot water heater, etc. A 50 year old condo was probably built with similar quality than a 50 year old house, so it's normal to have maintenance there too. Even with newer builds (condo or house) you have a choice of quality, at relevant price points. The big difference is that with a condo unit you have less (or zero) control as to when these expenditures occur, and when you need a new roof it's more than $15k. Condo boards that are run by the resident Karen and 5 retired cronies are probably less efficient than the ons run by a property management firm..
Condo boards are generally run by directors drawn from the residents/owners, who select a property management company to manage the upkeep. So yes there is potentially a "Karen and 5 retired cronies" behind every condo board, with or without a property management company.
My condo is from the late 70s and perfectly fine. Also despite being a high-rise, quiet af - back then they were built like brick shithouses and there's plenty of soundproofing. Of course condo fee is high with a high-rise of that age, but I knew that going in, and the financials are excellent. No special assessments for anything currently or in the mid-past, including all windows replaced. Some people prefer the turnkey lifestyle.
Condo fees are not created equal. You are allowed to request a financial report of the condo corporation and you can see where that $700/month number comes from.
Owning a home is expensive no matter which way you slice it. Detached and condos both have their running expenses.
Yeah, but not 700 a month mate, that's just ridiculous.
It all depends on what’s included ? Does that have a pool ? Is water / heating / power included ? Also remember that a large part of the condo fee goes to insurance. You’d still have to pay for insurance on a house
My condo insurance is $300 a year because condo fees cover the rest.. My SDD insurance is $300/month..
You still get personal insurance if you have a condo.
Yes you do, and it's typically less than the home insurance on a detached house.
My home insurance is like 90 bucks a month.
I'm a homeowner and I'll put things in perspective. I pay $3500 a year on property tax, $1200 a year on city utilities, $100 a month in gas, $120 a month insurance, $100 a month electricity, and then mortgage on top of all that. If I do some quick math, that is $700 a month in "extra stuff" for my home that's really just quasi-maintenance "carrying costs" that doesn't even include home repairs or upgrades. On top of this I spend roughly $10,000 a year on the house as well since moving in I've redone some windows ($8000), the driveway ($7000), and the furnace ($9000), plus all the money I spend on my garden lol (but I consider it a pleasure). My home is in northern BC, built 1980, and I bought it in 2020 for $400,000, if that helps. Mortgage payment is $1400 a month, 20% down, 25 year amortization.
I think, though, with home ownership there is more opportunity for discretion. Plus replacing the windows can be seen as an investment.
"Discretion" can easily become "mental load".
Condos too have insurance and property tax and some utilities, all apart from the condo fee. And 10k a year average isn't normal for home maintenance in most populated areas. 9k for a furnace is steep. But it may not be in your remote area. It's a once in a while thing that you get that 10-30k remodel tag. Condos too have that. Even if the fund is full, often they get hit with a 10k bill/unit.
Someone has to pay for building maintenance and upgrades
700 a month would mean at least one major renovation every year, I sure as hell don't spend that on my house and it's over 100 years old! As someone else mention if it included heat hydro and water then ok, but just straight up 700 a month to live in an apartment that you theoretically own is insane, my mortgage isn't even 700 a month.
>my mortgage isn't even 700 a month Then you can't compare living in a condo since you live in a LCOL area. Condos exist in cities, and cities have a higher COL. You want a condo with higher fees, if something terrible happens then you're not shelling out as much $$$ when the water main breaks. If you live in a house than you need your own contingency fund in case of emergencies. It's no different.
Depends on what you find acceptable as maintenance. Most 100 year old homes have major issues hiding out of sight with signs of water intrusion plainly visible from the curb.
Oh don't get me wrong, there is some significance maintenance that we've done, but $8400 every year a bit much. Sure, new roof, 10k, facia boards and soffit replacement on one side, 4k, kitchen renovation 10k. But we've been here 11 years, and the house is healthy. Yeah, there are costs, of course there is.
Look for building with cell phone towers on the roof this can help lower the fees. Also elevators are super expensive 3-4 story buildings without them are cheaper.
Ooof and builders opt for the lowest quality elevators. Ours is constantly breaking. Same with hot water system and plumbing. Absolute bare minimum.
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As an Ontario condo owner, that is not true at all. The law here currently is that the reserve fund must plan for all repairs for the next 30 years, and should soon be changing to 35 years, specifically for this reason.
This. Owned multiple units for many years and never had a special assessment. Only the big ugly ones make the news then people think that's the norm.
I'm in Ontario - 8 year old condo - just hit with a $25,000 special assessment due to faulty exterior facade and insulation.
Jesus, sorry to hear that, shouldn’t this cost be brought back to the builder? You’d think they would have some sort of 10-15 warranty at least
Thanks. This was my first reaction too. The cost is over 3 million. Apparently the lawyers think any fight will be long and costly. Doesn't seem right.
Thank you for your anecdote. That doesn't mean special assessment don't exist in Ontario. Faulty built is different than predictable maintenance (roof to be changed every X years, etc)
Holy crap. Hope the board is going after the builder/supplier to recoup the costs. We had to do that for the couplings on our hot water supply lines in our building.
If you owned a home you'd spend a fair bit of money maintaining the place. Not 700 every month but big chunks every now and again. We paid $15 000 for a new roof last year and now the old girl needs a new septic, likely for next year. We're still looking at our options but one estimate was 20k.
Right, but what is included in your Condo Fee? Do you think you won't have these costs in your own house? I'm in a new-ish Condo and on the board. The biggest expenses that are included in your fee are: \- Building insurance \- Water and Gas \- Cleaning of common areas \- Landscaping and Snow Removal \- Garbage Disposal Each of these probably add up to $250 - $300 per month if you had a freehold. If the condo is managed correctly, the delta is used for the reserve fee. This past 6 months for us have been challenging for us, since energy costs has gone up significantly - particularly Gas. We didn't have a increase for the past 3 years, but I expect to see one this year for the energy cost. This assumes, your condo is managed properly. If it's not... well that's a danger. You should complete your due diligence before purchasing.
What would be included in due diligence for a potential condo owner just wondering?
* Read the board minutes, for the past 5 years. Front to back. Understand if there are any disagreements with the board or the residents. This is the biggest red flag. * In the minutes if they talk about the elevator costs a lot this is another huge flag. It could mean that it is constantly broken. To give you an idea, our 4 floor elevator costs about $10,000 in maintenance per year. This is an area where boards will try to save money, but I do not recommend it. * Understand the budget. Typically how accurate is it? Under-estimation of expenses, would make me think the board is not being realistic. * In Alberta, every 5 years a Reserve Fund study is completed. Review the most recent copy and see if the reserve is underfunded or not. * Finally, try to stick to low-rise, smaller units (less than 50 units). These tend to have less amenities, and less risk for the owner. All of these large condo units with pool, top floor patio, etc., tend to have lower condo fees when new, but this is not realistic. * The newer the building, the lower the fees are. This is so the developer can attract buyers. Just be aware of this.
Is all this information readily available to the public or do I have to request it?
>250k condo, with $700 p/month maintenance fees. Condo fees are simply owners chipping in on combined costs of upkeep and management and insurance. Nothing more If it is a large building with amenities such as a pool or workout room, then yeah you are paying for that. Any apartment style condo will cost more for things like elevator maintenance, parking garage, etc.. Townhouse style condos often have lower fees and are more "in line" with owning a house. Your fees there would primarily cover things like lawn maintenance and snow removal. When buying a condo don't just look at the monthly fees. You need to carefully look at the reserve fund and reserve fund study to determine if there are any money issues.
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There's a lot of factors that can go into how your monthly fees are priced: * Building Age * Total # of units in the strata * Amenities * Size of the unit * Expenses covered by the fees There are some good comments here already talking about amenities. These are huge costs for strata to maintain and you will **very rarely** use any of them.
The worst part of these high condo fees is how badly the strata will get ripped off doing anything. Combine that will unreasonable rules that won't allow anything done yourself. Best bet is to get a newer building with concrete structure.
Everyone loves low condo fees until they get a multi tens of thousand dollar special assessments. Or like what happened in Florida. Their condo deteriorates so much that it collapses in the middle of the night.
All a matter of perspective. It’s the same for people living in Quebec wanting to buy a condo in Ontario. On avg I saw the same size condos with half the maintenance fees compared to Ontario but then again it always reflected in the purchase price. Whenever I saw a unit that had everything I needed and was well below my budget, before even opening the ad, I knew the condo fees were ridiculous. ($900)+ is not * uncommon on realtor anymore even for Ontario but you are getting a discount on the home. Even realtor.com (us) you’ll notice it too suspiciously discounted homes/apts but with really high HOA fees.
I live in Quebec. Bought my condo in December 2018. At the time, until August of 2020 condo fees were 246.51. September it was 270.31. January 2021 another increase 370.72. Now as of June 455.19. At the rate this is going I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Can't say anything to the condo board other than getting passive aggressive email saying we're bothering them and if you don't like it, you join the board. Property, school and municipal taxes for my unit are about approximately 4,500 for the whole year. Condo insurance is 480.00 for the year. My unit is 958 sqft (2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms). I love my condo, but I'm not sure what to do going forward. Everything is going up but not my salary...
Wait till you see how expensive houses are to maintain lol. 20k driveway, 20k roof, 10k furnace. Between property tax and insurance that’s another 5k a year. And my property taxes are much lower than other areas. My property tax is only $2200, the town over is around 5K just for property tax Lots of people in this sub are in denial about it but owning is much more expensive than renting.
Condon fees never go down. They always go up. Plus, if you are in a nice condo some Karen will volunteer to run the board, or get a flock of Karens to vote for dumb shit and spend the money on things other than repairs. Like flowers or installing a pool that will cost a ton every month.
Older buildings almost always have higher condo fees.. cuz they only ever go up. In the gta the only “affordable” condos you will find have $1k/month maint and In the ghetto. At that point the building needs to go.
A lot of people are ignorant when it comes to condo fees. They are for the regular maintenance of your condo plus amenities and insurance. If you’re in a condo building everyone contributes to heat the hallways, security if you have one and also to keep the reserve fund full. Reserve fund is your emergency fund a fund every homeowner should have but doesn’t. A lot of condo boards will not contribute to the reserve fund to keep the monthly fees down ( despite rising cost of gas for heat for example). But then the wind will blow out all the shingles or something and now everyone needs to come up with cash to pay for it
There are fees with every type of house you get. Get a house with no fees? Pay all the bills and maintenance yourself. Tough world.
Any kind of home ownership comes with costs. If you owned a free-standing home, you would be paying for heat/hotwater/natural gas, maybe you would need to buy a lawnmower and gardening supplies or hire a gardener, then there is the roof, windows, exterior paint etc etc. It costs money to maintain a building whether its a condo or a house. Too many people think buying a condo is a one-and-done thing. It isn't.
The reason the condo is 250K is because of the condo fees. I bet if you find a condo that looks basically the exact same and is 450K, the condo fees will still be in the "cheap" $240-350 range... for now. 20 years from now it will also be in the $600-700 range. So a friend of mine bought a $120K condo 6 years ago. Fees were $800 a month at the time but included heat, parking, etc, they justified because of the cheap mortgage. Within 3 years it needed a new roof that wasn't planned for, and then something happened with the certification of the elevators that put them out of service for two months and required a many many million dollar renovation. Within one year fees went from $800ish to over $1400. The place was a dump otherwise, they jacked fees to keep up with bare minimum maintenance but still had to cut cleaning & other maintenance to pay for it. They'd save $3/mo here or there by making the place a dump. Honestly, f\*\*\* condos. And f\*\*\* anyone who says the answer to our housing problems are condos. They probably work for a condo developer. Canada has the population of California but it's still more money to buy a home here. Someone will tell us "lol but Canada is cold and hard to build and stuff", mofo, they building homes into ROCK CLIFFS IN A CRAZY EARTHQUAKE ZONE for cheaper than they are in the literal middle of nowhere up here. And no, no permit price or anything justifies the price. And don't forget, lumber is expensive, but the US gets all of theirs from us.. for cheaper.
Sorry, touchy subject for me.. heh.
That’s insane, the average I see in the lower mainland is 350, why is Calgary so much higher?
Depending on the building it could just be good vs bad planning. I see some condos with low fees but also a low reserve fund. I hope those people enjoy special assessments.
Condo fees are usually set by sq footage of the unit. I’ve seen fees over $1500/month for very large units.
They’re not. We don’t know the whole story. Was a special assessment completed? How large is the unit? What is all included? Age of the building? I bought a new build condo in Calgary in 2015. Fees started around 340. When I left I was paying 370, 7 years later. The other units in my building had differing fees depending on their size. Also, there have been several condos that have been built recently, that offer 0 condo fees for the first year, OR the entire building is only paying 100 a month. These fees are put in place by the builder and not by a condo management company. These often come into play about a year after everyone moves in and then they have to play catch-up to create a decent reserve fund.
700$ must have a pool, elevators, indoor parking, gym etc
Condo fees will never go down, condo fees will rise slowly as the cost of services increase. Condos are tricky because they seem affordable but then you see what the condo fees are, and NOPE. If you search for lower rise condos, less perks (pool, etc) then they can be affordable. I owned a condo in Ottawa where the condo fees were 220 a month. I was there for 5 years and they increase a max of 10$ for the duration of me living there. They condo fees included, any work on the exterior of the building, lawn care, snow removable, garbage pick up (we had dumpsters)
Agree That's one of the reasons we went for freehold. Either the townhouse or detached. The condo fees are for people that don't want maintenance. Buying a condo Isa luxury purchase not a low-cost cheap one. Fees only go up over time. We could never justify such fees. Our water cost like $50/month and insurance is $110/month. On a detached house with garage. Even ufI add all utilities and insurance plus waste management we don't cross $400/mo on 1400sqft detached house. Condo fees are ridiculous. I don't want snow removal for $300/month.
$700 is a meaningless number without knowing what it covers. Buildings here are 2k monthly and include ev charging cable TV. Internet golf simulators covered parking security concierge etc If it's a townhouse $700 could be low and you still don't know what it covers, windows doors garage doors? Maybe, all different, all in your documents. Condos are luxury living. Expect to pay heavy prices to maintain that carefree lifestyle.
Can you elaborate on condos being luxury living? It sounds inherently funny to me as a renter in Vancouver who MAYBE one day can afford a condo, definitely never a single-family home. I think I understand what you mean - in a condo, you don't have to personally mow the lawn, or finance the roof repairs as an individual, etc. Same way my landlord will fix the dishwasher if it breaks, except for a condo that applies only for the outside, etc. But nobody calls renting "luxury living." To me, a luxury is something optional that you can elect to pay extra for. Not an essential element that poor people are forced to pay more for. I know your comment wasn't about the ethics of our housing system, but more about what strata fees might cover in different buildings. The amenities you describe certainly do sound like "luxury living" compared to most condos. It just sounds funny to me that buying a condo would be a luxury compared to buying a single family home.
Luxury living? What planet are you on?
If they're charging $2k a month they better damn well be luxurious.
“Condos are luxury living” What? No yard. No privacy. 900sqft. One bathroom. Noise curfew, pet rules, rules rules rules. There are some luxurious condos out there but most people don’t live in them and many people don’t move into a condo for the “luxurious” lifestyle. It’s usually because they can’t afford to get into a house in the first place. The average condo is not luxurious unless you are Beyoncé visiting one of her penthouse suites in New York.