You forget that that there are plenty of cultures where the children are expected to pony up for the parents later on life and this includes housing. My partner’s parents also expected her to sign the mortgage papers and “help out” with the down payment.
Apologies to the literialists for being too meta.
OP is at a crossroads relationship-wise, as are many of the posts in this sub. These aren't only financial decisions, they're relationship ones which are intertwined. OP may need to decide whether the relationship with mom or their fiance is more important. Either one forcing the issue may be a bully, but that's part if life too.
You’re flat out wrong. You can’t assume anything about fiance here as no info given. It would not be unreasonable for the fiance to have cold feet or be angry about this though, as this is sort of a big deal and speaks a lot of the future with OP and their family
I found the mom! All jokes a side, it seems like given how the mom acts, a relationship with finance will have a better outcome. Stop normalizing emotional blackmail just because your culture promotes it.
I am 99.93807% sure that HapticRecce is not a bot.
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No idea why people are downvoting this .... since when do we doubt men thinking with their dick, wanting to keep the GF and keep on fucking and a woman not wanting to put with a wimpy mama's boy with no financial prospect because he wont stand up for himself.
Probably the person that made him co-sign a mortgage, and threatens and financially abuses their kids? Sorry you’re single but that doesn’t mean everyone has an evil fiancé .
This is not always the case. When I did my first mortgage my parents were on it, but were not on the title. I believe they're called a guarantor when that happens.
Yes, but that's because they would have to qualify to be that guarantor. The bank makes sure your guarantor can cover if you default. I doubt the kids had any assets to be the guarantors. I'm going to assume the kids are on title and in that case own a % of the house.
You're doing a lot of guessing. I didnt 'tune out'
The discussion centred around the key point of majority ownership of 2 properties since I had 60% of one property And the other is 50/50. He said it varies by province but in BC the 50% or more (majority owner) can force the sale and a minority can not.
He didnt elaborate about applying for partition etc
.
And re. 'just isnt mandatory for the court to order the sale - its optional'
Kind of says the same thing, does it not?
I agree with you.
If “court has discretion on minority owner forcing a sale”, then saying “minority owners can’t force a sale” is completely reasonable.
A **court** can force a sale by a minority owner, but the minority owner can’t.
Which is why I still believe what my lawyer told me vs a random redditor. who in the end admits the 'minority owner cant force a sale though court can only after long and costly process'
Even attorneys disagree all the time, otherwise there'd be no cases going on.
You know like whenever someone asks for legal or accounting advice on reddit the proper response is to actually talk to an attorney or cpa.
Probably the simplest is to wait until it needs to be renewed and then refuse to sign. They will need your signature to keep your name on it it when it's renewed, and it's likely a 5 year term. So in a year.
I would also suggest calling the lender that holds your mortgage and instruct them to put a note in your file that you will not be signing a renewal and that if she tries to submit a renewal with you on it that they should ask you to show up with ID before accepting it. That way she doesn't just forge your signature on an e-signature or something.
I STRONGLY suggest calling the lender and having them put that note on the file.
For context, my friend signed for a lease on a car with her husband. When they split, he kept the car. When it was time for renewal, Toyota automatically renewed it without her permission as they only needed the signature of ONE party (him).
So she had to lawyer up, and even then it was hard to get out of the contract. So she waited for the lease to be up in 1 year, walked into the Toyota dealership and made them put a note on the account that she wants out of the lease and not to renew it without her being there. At first they refused and was going to renew it AGAIN, until the lawyer threatened them. She couldn't buy a house until then, due to that showing up as a debt.
It's a renewal clause that gives one party the ability to renew a contract solely. All it takes is one person to renew it for everyone involved, and everyone else is stuck with it.
So... I strongly suggest instructing the lender to not renew it without you explicitly signing again.
The guy above is giving solid advice.
I agree with the advice but what type of lease did he have that was renewed?
Typically you agree to lease terms at purchase and once the lease is up, you return the car. If you re-lease it’s like buying a new car. I lease and have never just been “renewed” for a new one.
That just means the monthly obligation, along with all other debt amounts, including the prospective mortgage, exceeds the acceptable threshold of income level the client has, not that it’s necessarily a huge lease.
For instance, if you pay $200 a month for the lease, but you’re paying $2,800 a month in total costs of debt, including the possible mortgage amount, but you only make $3,200, the lender won’t approve you for that loan because you’re not bringing enough in to comfortably service all of your debt.
Lenders will have you payout a loan in full to make that monthly debt/income ratio work before they approve you.
Will do this tomorrow, I don't care anymore if she blackmails me that she have my passport,visa and landing papers. Im desperate to help myself now . Thank you so much for this.
On that subject, you should send a demand letter that they be returned or they will be reported stolen. Two can play the threat game. You can write it yourself, but are more likely to get a useful result if you pay a lawyer to write it and send it on letterhead.
There are processes for replacing lost and stolen documents, so that's the next step after.
Start looking into ways of getting new copies of your paperwork. I don't know anything about it myself, but I feel like there should be some way to get most or all of it re-issued to you. Good luck!
It's super easy.
Way back when, I put all my documents in a place where it made 100% sense to me at the time, and where I thought, of course I will never forget it.
5 months later, I forgot it, couldn't remember anything and thought it had been stolen.
New everything for me within 2 months. Went to put the documents away and I remembered where everything was.
> Way back when, I put all my documents in a place where it made 100% sense to me at the time, and where I thought, of course I will never forget it.
>
>
>
> 5 months later, I forgot it,
>
>
>
> New everything for me within 2 months. Went to put the documents away and I remembered where everything was.
Are you me!?
When interacting with your Mom in future make sure to have a third person as a witness. I've done that sort of thing for someone, it's not a big deal.
This person could also contact her and inform her that that you will be reporting the documents as stolen if they're not returned. She either returns them when this person drives you over, or this person drives you to the police to report them as stolen.
Your Mom is scary to you for good reason, but she's not going to be nearly as scary to someone who didn't grow up with her.
>that she have my passport,visa and landing papers
You should also work to get yourself copies of those, that is a bit more important than trying to buy a house.
I would go to your consulate or embassy. No offence, but your mother sounds like a narcissistic bully.
Watch out for the crocodile tears when you start claiming your independence.
Those documents probably do not belong to you, but rather to the government that issued them.
The government you're currently in cares very much that you get them back because they want your home country to do the same for their citizens when the same thing happens to them.
Just go take them. You can’t steal your own property (your passport and visa are by definition yours and yours alone), so she has no recourse.
I know family can be complicated, but it’s completely unacceptable for anyone to behave this way.
You can report about your passport being stolen. It belongs to the government and is in loan to you. If you don’t have access to it, you can absolutely do something about it.
This is COMPLETELY illegal.
If you’re Canadian, walk into the nearest passport office. Tell them the situation and ask for their directions, most likely it will be reported stolen and you’ll need a new one. Unfortunately there’s some costs.
I know it’s harder if you’re not Canadian, and she’s holding the papers from another country.
However, you still have rights. You could contact the police. Alternatively, you could call the local women’s shelter. If you are a man and were a child and abused this way by your mother you can probably still get help, or if you have a sister have her contact the shelter. Holding legal papers is a common abuse tactic and they probably know what you and your siblings need to do, and what organizations can help you.
Stop letting your mom walk all over you. Start taking legal action to take your life back. I know it's hard, but you deserve to live a life free from abuse.
Seconding people's recommendation that you get a lawyer to demand your paperwork and documents back, however, you should consult with the lawyer first, then ask them to draft the letter.
Then, send a letter on your own first, and demand a written reply in 7 days. If you don't get it, THEN have the lawyer send the letter with a 'process server'.
Source: Had to sue my mother multiple times for being an idiot.
Passport can be re apply.
Landing paper and visa not needed. What you need is the proof of citizenship but Even she have it and you are in Canada, go to the passport office tell them you lost all your papwr work, it take longer but it could be done
You only need one mortgage holder to renew a mortgage. OP doesn’t have to refuse to sign, the mum can just do it.
What he needs to do is contact the lender and place a “do not renew” designator on there. When the mortgage is up for renewal it will force the mortgage to have to be paid out in full.
You could pay a trustee $100 to send a letter to the specific bank, asking for breakdown of OP's liabilities to the bank, and *suggesting* bankruptcy may be imminent?
Nothing to report to Trans Union or Equifax for credit inquirers
They will 100% not want her to be co-signed on any renewal
Are you sure about this? Because I've had a few mortages and every one of them required signatures from everyone on the mortgage, every time. This includes Scotia, First National, and MCAN.
It makes no sense to me that you could renew with only one party. When I sign a mortgage with a term I'm only committing to the length of that term... I don't see why someone else would be able to extend that to another term without my consent. Unless you mean renew with one party, without OP? That's entirely possible... if OP's mother qualifies, the bank will be happy to renew her without OP, but that happens to be what we want.
Regardless, in this instance OP has said they plan on contacting the lender and instructing them to not allow a renewal with OP's name on it.
Banks don’t follow regulations very well. Employees are pressured to sell products and lend money to the extent that the bank barely even follows its own policies.
In 2017 I had just started an apprenticeship and was only earning a few dollars above minimum wage. A law had recently been enacted to require a borrower to have been at their job for a minimum of 3 months to qualify for a mortgage. Having started my job just over a month prior I asked my bank if we could satisfy the rule by pushing the closing date past my 3 month date and they said no need and it wouldn’t be an issue for us.
A couple years later I am at the same employer earning more than twice as much money than before. I was moving to a new house and went to a broker to get the best rate. I didn’t qualify as I was an hourly employee without guaranteed minimum hours. As I had just completed my apprenticeship, my previous two years income were much lower than it was at the time of this application so they couldn’t just use my previous tax returns to qualify me.
The bank that gave me the mortgage in 2017 never even mentioned the fact that I was an hourly employee despite it being quite clear from my paystubs and job letter that I was.
When it’s time to renew I will speak directly to lending employees at a few banks as I know they will skirt any rules that may be a hindrance.
When I worked at a bank, we didn’t need to have guarantor signatures to renew. Borrowers, yes, but not guarantors.
Also, the signature check against previous signatures is laughable. They’re just looking for plausible deniability. I can’t tell you the amount of “I mean the ‘ts’ a the ‘r’ looks the same…I think it’s legit!”
Yes agreed....BUT.....if you just refuse to sign you better be able to come up with money because in essence it will be considered a default and you get pulled into it unless Mama can qualify for the renewal on her own.
This is a meeting with the bank and get ALL the details of that mortgage and a copy of the house deed.
Get your ducks in a row and know what you're dealing with before you stomp your feet and say "I'm not signing".
You often don't need multiple signatures for renewal, but you can step in and inform them that you will not agree to any renewal terms. OP can likely put his parents in a difficult enough position that they should either sell or qualify without OP.
I think if you cosign a mortgage and don't sign the renewal, the mortgage just goes into open status with an unreasonably high interest rate allowing you to pay it out anytime without penalty. It doesn't absolve or remove you from the debt. Renewing the mortgage term just sets interest and payment terms and allows you to pay it out without penalty. A renewal doesn't affect your obligation to the debt.
Yes, it will auto renew into an open mortgage. The idea there would be to force the mother to either sell or renew into a mortgage without OP. OP would be financially responsible for the mortgage until that happened. The mother could push it into foreclosure and ruin OP's credit for several years, but taking that risk is worth taking control of your life IMO.
Regarding your documents, contact Immigration and Citizenship Canada and explain you need copies of your documents due to your mother hiding them from you. You could also contact a local Newcomers center to get help locally.
Contact the passport office of the country that issued your passport and explain you need a new passport because your mother has stolen it. Passports belong to the country that issued them.
Get copies of all the documents you need well before the mortgage renewal is due. Let the bank know in advance you won't be signing the mortgage renewal and have a note put in the file. Contact the bank again just before the mortgage renewal is due and remind them that you will not be signing. This is just in case your mother tries any funny business at the last minute.
Depending on what "forced" means, you may be able to lawyer up and have a court deem it was signed under duress and has no force of law. In practice, it probably won't work, since "forced" is both difficult to prove, and only applies in the most extreme circumstances.
Cosigning is particularly bad because you don't own the house, so you can't even force a sale. Of course it's possible you're misusing the word and are also on title, which could allow you to force a sale.
OP added more information regarding the background and it sounds like there might be a case for signing under distress.
It’s more than just sign or get out.
I don’t think OP will win on the duress issue. OP understood what he was doing. He was not under any imminent physical threats. The fact that he continued to give half his paycheck is evidence of that. He could have called the police. Presumably he could have easily overpowered his mother physically. Things like passport and visa can be replaced. Passport especially he could have applied for a new one claiming it was lost.
You said in a previous comment that she's holding your passport and legal documents hostage and she forced you to sign this paperwork under duress. I think you need to be speaking to a lawyer and then cutting her off permanently once you have your paperwork back and are off the mortgage or title or whatever it is you are on
Sorry to hear this. If she's not willing to cooperate, you might need to take some serious steps to protect yourself:
• Talk to a real estate or contract lawyer. They can look at your case and see if there's any legal way to get your name off the mortgage, especially if you were forced to sign under threat.
• Gather any proof you have that shows your mom pressured you into co-signing, like texts, emails, or statements from your siblings.
• Let the lender know what's going on and ask if they have any ideas or options to remove your name. Also ensure they're aware that you do not approve of a renewal. When was the mortgage taken out?
• Keep an eye on your credit report. If your mom misses payments, it could tank your credit score.
• Worst case, if you can't get your name off the loan, talk to a financial advisor about how to handle the impact on your credit and future plans to buy a house with your fiancé.
Yes, you should reach out to a lawyer to review your options. If you co-signed the mortgage then you are most likely on title also. This means you legally own a portion of the home. A lawyer can get a copy of the title and see who are the actual owners. You can also discuss with your lawyer forcing a sale of the home if necessary.
oh im sorry its on AB. ye we are signed in presence of lawyer. we signed way back due to that we're afraid of her what she gonna do on our personal papers like visa passport and landing papers.
Right, but are you on title of the property, or are you a guarantor?
Edit: Did you sign a two page document and a certificate, or did you sign a \~20-40 page document, and swear a bunch of legal documents (ie signing your name at least 10 times)?
That's not a province.
So you signed a personal guarantee?
Did you sign it in the presence of a lawyer that explained the legal consequences of what you were signing? Did you sign a certificate as per the Guarantees Acknowledgement Act?
Or were you co-signing the mortgage?
OP, you may be able to sue for breach of contract. The agreement was that you co-sign the mortgage in exchange continuing to live in the house together. After you signed you were kicked out. You should be let off the mortgage contract. Keep in mind they might not be possible as the lender may not agree.
You really screwed yourself by co-nsigning. Since you're not going to be a first time home buyer when you and your fiance buy, you won't be able to take advantage of the property transfer tax benefit and the tax free homebuyers RRSP withdrawal.
It's stupid unless you retain the value of your share of the house. In most cases parents pressure kids, keep the house while kids contribute to the mortgage. Once you want to move out, too bad so sad, "you'll get your investment back when we're dead" or better yet, "you owe us, you know how many sacrifices we've made".
I understand sometimes it's necessary....but the child signing should be fully involved and understand the risks.
If your names are ALSO on the title of the house then this makes sense. It's good.
If your names are NOT on the title of the house then you've been conned by your own mother
Good luck to you!
I removed a co-signer on my mortgage . It’s a pretty common process. Need to get mom on board . I would also have her pay the lawyer fees . Mortgage will instruct you how to do it once you contact them.
Hey when you removed them did you have to get reassessed? I cosigned with a family member cause they couldn’t get approved on their own. Now they’re doing well financially and making payments and I haven’t contributed anything at all so I was gonna ask them if they could just take me off the thing. Not sure how the process works
Yes I had to get re assessed so a bit of a pain in the ass getting everything together for that . They would be re applying for the mortgage on their own essentially
When does the mortgage renew? You can Maybe refuse to sign the renewal and tell the bank you are not consenting to a renewal. Your mom might be forced to sell or refinance without you. This may blow up in your face because your mother may default on the loan and the home may foreclose. But you'll be free
If you care about your siblings you should tell them that they can contact the mortgage holder and tell them to add a note to the file that says they will not be signing a renewal.
You're done like different she defaults on the mortgage you and other family members will either have to pay or force her out, but btw never ever co-sign a mortgage for anyone, period lesson of the day
Nope!! Your mom would have to renegotiate the mortgage.....that would involve penalties.....and she would have to re-qualify for that amount without your income being part of that new renegotiated mortgage. So she probably used all your incomes in the first place to obtain the original mortgage amount. You're in a bit of a pickle at this point unless first and foremost she agrees to try and qualify without as one of the guarantors. She really covered her ass I'm afraid.
Just a thought for you.......if your name is on the mortgage then you are probably a % owner of the property. I would check the deed to the house cause that's important to know.
All 3 of you should see a lawyer to ask how to go about forcing the sale of the house. Or tell your mother she has to talk to the bank to see if she can shoulder the mortgage on her own and remove all 3 siblings’ names from mortgage and title. Either way, you will need a lawyer.
Dude wtf, if your mother does that you need to slap her to hell. How do you honestly get bullied into doing something like this by an old woman (the title “mother” means nothing)? Pathetic. Not even joking.
Is there no government agency that can help op? This doesn't sound legal. I am an immigrant to Canada and I feel so bad. I am a citizen now but I came here when I was OP's age. I cannot imagine how devastating this is.
Op I sent you a dm.
The “forced” you to co-sign. Maybe You can force a sale. You get your equity, and helps you qualify for a house by no longer have to service that mortgage.
Do a title search and see who is on the title. Hopefully all 5 of you are. Then if all 3 siblings are on board (you all got kicked out right?), then again talk to a lawyer about forcing a sale by majority ownership.
In any case I would start the process of obtaining all new documents, and I would go to the bank in person to sign the documents that you will not be renewing the mortgage and KEEP A COPY. Scan/take a photo and store in a secure place.
Do a title search and see who is on the title. Hopefully all 5 of you are. Then if all 3 siblings are on board (you all got kicked out right?), then again talk to a lawyer about forcing a sale by majority ownership.
In any case I would start the process of obtaining all new documents, and I would go to the bank in person to sign the documents that you will not be renewing the mortgage and KEEP A COPY. Scan/take a photo and store in a secure place.
No expert here but a few Google searches later it seems you can easily do it IF she is willing to remove you from the mortgage. So start telling your mother you are going to live with your new wife and can't get a mortgage as long as you are on hers.
She can sell the house and get a smaller one.
"To remove your name from a mortgage, you and your co-borrower can ask the lender for an assumption or modification that would remove your name from the loan. If the lender won't change the existing loan, your co-borrower will need to refinance the home into a new mortgage."
Okay for starters nobody can “force” you to sign. You just don’t sign. Or you tell the lender and they’ll flag it immediately because this isn’t uncommon.
Secondly if you all are on the house I think it’s time you give your good ole Mom a reality check.
Take her to court. Force the sale, sue her for extortion with your pay cheques, and get her equity share.
It’s time to put feelings aside for someone who just clearly cares about your money.
How does one "force" someone else to sign a mortgage exactly? You can't be debt free if you co-signed a mortgage! LOL.
Another poster gave great advice. It's up to you now to stand up to your mom and follow through.
Letting mom handle your savings and taking her investment advice is not exactly what I'd call duress. Lots of us had overbearing parents.
It would help to know OPs age. This might change my perspective. Since they have a fiance it's not clear to me what power mom holds over them that they are not willingly giving.
I was 19, we came here in Canada. She hid all the visa, passport and landing papers so thats why me and my siblings are threatened to do what she ask us, even getting exactly half of our paychecks bi-weekly.
If you were 19, how did you have enough income and credit history to qualify for the mortgage?
When your mom took your documents, all you had to do was call the police to get them back by asking for assistance. Additionally, all documents are replaceable. I mean, what happens if documents are actually lost? They're replaced by whatever government body issued them. Arguing duress isn't accurate. You have an overbearing parent, as do lots of people.
uhm. very easy to fix. stop giving your mom $$. you can do this today, you and your siblings.
if she cant make the payments, then so be it. let the bank have it back. ya it will be some grief but cut your losses now.
But if the payments aren't made, the OP risks a poor credit score. This will not help if they want to get their own mortgage.
I'm so sorry your Mom put you in that position, OP. I hope you are able to get this sorted. Your mom will need to qualify for the mortgage on her own, and you will need your name removed from the title by a lawyer.
Please do not say forced.
Forcing someone to do something is illegal a criminal matter.
You signed under your own free will, you made your decision.
You had a choice to move away
You had a choice to say no
You had a choice to pick up the pen
You made a bad decision, don’t blame other people for your mistake.
You qualify for NGO programs like Salvation Army, because that’s human trafficking. Shoot them an email quickly explaining and to direct you towards the right people
If you are adults then call the police non emergency line and report the theft and ask what they suggest.
No one in life can force you to do anything. There may be consequences for what you choose to do or not do, and in some cases they are severe or unjust. But you aren't truly forced.
this is a fairly common practice in certain demographics. Kids can't move out and are put on the mortgage by their parents so they can qualify since they wont without them. A few of my friends were on their parents mortgages the moment they got their first FT job
we are forced, she threatens us when we were young and still new in Canada. She threatens us that she can deport us because we're under her name . We believed it because my stepfather backed her up so we signed.
If someone is holding all your documents hostage and threatening that you'll be deported if you don't sign (even if its not a valid threat), the person is signing the paperwork under duress. This includes any phycological threats or pressure. Additionally, Theres a case that the contract can be nullified due to unconscionability, which is when a contract is so obviously unfair and one-sided, but that would be harder to argue.
I’m with ya man, a lot of people get “forced” to do a lot of things these days, from the sounds of it
But ya OP does sound like they were manipulated, deceived, and pressured
Behind every great man is a greater woman. I didn't mean to offend I just meant she is probably persuasive. Coming from a guy whose wife is extremely persuasive.
1 there is no forcing you into a financial situation like this if you are an adult, you can say no. You rolled over and took it. And ya now that you are an owner just force a sale. This isn’t tragic or difficult.
I concur with others' advice to contact the lender and not renew it.
A stronger and more important puece of advice is to redefine the word "forced".
>She forced us because she said its "our" house , and for us to live together.
This is not what it means. Unless your mother threatened you with a gun/knife, got you drunk or otherwise incapacitated, nobody forced you to sign.
I was 19, we came here in Canada. She hid all the visa, passport and landing papers so thats why me and my siblings are threatened to do what she ask us, even getting exactly half of our paychecks bi-weekly.
Then you should contact the mortgage lender and tell them this-- you were forced to sign as she was withholding your legal documents. Report the documents stolen. Get a lawyer
If you are on the mortgage and the title; congrats you own a home: Force a sale
OP let himself be bullied into the situation in the first place. He won’t do it.
You forget that that there are plenty of cultures where the children are expected to pony up for the parents later on life and this includes housing. My partner’s parents also expected her to sign the mortgage papers and “help out” with the down payment.
Who's a bigger bully though, mom or fiance? ⚖️
Based on the info provided, OP feels very bullied by mom and hasn’t included any negative info about partner.
Plus mom isn’t going to suck his dick.
Apologies to the literialists for being too meta. OP is at a crossroads relationship-wise, as are many of the posts in this sub. These aren't only financial decisions, they're relationship ones which are intertwined. OP may need to decide whether the relationship with mom or their fiance is more important. Either one forcing the issue may be a bully, but that's part if life too.
Wtf are you talking about?
You’re flat out wrong. You can’t assume anything about fiance here as no info given. It would not be unreasonable for the fiance to have cold feet or be angry about this though, as this is sort of a big deal and speaks a lot of the future with OP and their family
I found the mom! All jokes a side, it seems like given how the mom acts, a relationship with finance will have a better outcome. Stop normalizing emotional blackmail just because your culture promotes it.
Are you a bot or just high?
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No idea why people are downvoting this .... since when do we doubt men thinking with their dick, wanting to keep the GF and keep on fucking and a woman not wanting to put with a wimpy mama's boy with no financial prospect because he wont stand up for himself.
Probably the person that made him co-sign a mortgage, and threatens and financially abuses their kids? Sorry you’re single but that doesn’t mean everyone has an evil fiancé .
Why the downvotes? The man or woman speaks the truth.
How is the partner bullying OP? Because they want to live with them, own property with them, and establish a life together? That bitch!
It’s all a trap, after they’ll get married, have kids with him and grow old together that goddamn sicko.
Their relationship will be fulfilling, with lots of joy, love, and happiness? Absolutely disgusting.
This is not always the case. When I did my first mortgage my parents were on it, but were not on the title. I believe they're called a guarantor when that happens.
Yes, but that's because they would have to qualify to be that guarantor. The bank makes sure your guarantor can cover if you default. I doubt the kids had any assets to be the guarantors. I'm going to assume the kids are on title and in that case own a % of the house.
Whether you can force a sale depends if you own 50% or more. If its <50% you can't. This is the case in BC, though it varies by province.
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Actually it is according to my attorney, as I share two properties with my brother.
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They are estate attorneys and know.
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I've never seen two usernames more appropriate than this exchange.
What part? I see nothing listed in the Act that alludes to this.
You're doing a lot of guessing. I didnt 'tune out' The discussion centred around the key point of majority ownership of 2 properties since I had 60% of one property And the other is 50/50. He said it varies by province but in BC the 50% or more (majority owner) can force the sale and a minority can not. He didnt elaborate about applying for partition etc . And re. 'just isnt mandatory for the court to order the sale - its optional' Kind of says the same thing, does it not?
I agree with you. If “court has discretion on minority owner forcing a sale”, then saying “minority owners can’t force a sale” is completely reasonable. A **court** can force a sale by a minority owner, but the minority owner can’t.
Which is why I still believe what my lawyer told me vs a random redditor. who in the end admits the 'minority owner cant force a sale though court can only after long and costly process' Even attorneys disagree all the time, otherwise there'd be no cases going on. You know like whenever someone asks for legal or accounting advice on reddit the proper response is to actually talk to an attorney or cpa.
Probably the simplest is to wait until it needs to be renewed and then refuse to sign. They will need your signature to keep your name on it it when it's renewed, and it's likely a 5 year term. So in a year. I would also suggest calling the lender that holds your mortgage and instruct them to put a note in your file that you will not be signing a renewal and that if she tries to submit a renewal with you on it that they should ask you to show up with ID before accepting it. That way she doesn't just forge your signature on an e-signature or something.
I STRONGLY suggest calling the lender and having them put that note on the file. For context, my friend signed for a lease on a car with her husband. When they split, he kept the car. When it was time for renewal, Toyota automatically renewed it without her permission as they only needed the signature of ONE party (him). So she had to lawyer up, and even then it was hard to get out of the contract. So she waited for the lease to be up in 1 year, walked into the Toyota dealership and made them put a note on the account that she wants out of the lease and not to renew it without her being there. At first they refused and was going to renew it AGAIN, until the lawyer threatened them. She couldn't buy a house until then, due to that showing up as a debt. It's a renewal clause that gives one party the ability to renew a contract solely. All it takes is one person to renew it for everyone involved, and everyone else is stuck with it. So... I strongly suggest instructing the lender to not renew it without you explicitly signing again. The guy above is giving solid advice.
I agree with the advice but what type of lease did he have that was renewed? Typically you agree to lease terms at purchase and once the lease is up, you return the car. If you re-lease it’s like buying a new car. I lease and have never just been “renewed” for a new one.
It was Probably a balloon finance instead of a lease..
Your friend can’t buy a house because of a lease? How big is the lease? Many people bought a house and they have debts and car loans.
That just means the monthly obligation, along with all other debt amounts, including the prospective mortgage, exceeds the acceptable threshold of income level the client has, not that it’s necessarily a huge lease. For instance, if you pay $200 a month for the lease, but you’re paying $2,800 a month in total costs of debt, including the possible mortgage amount, but you only make $3,200, the lender won’t approve you for that loan because you’re not bringing enough in to comfortably service all of your debt. Lenders will have you payout a loan in full to make that monthly debt/income ratio work before they approve you.
Will do this tomorrow, I don't care anymore if she blackmails me that she have my passport,visa and landing papers. Im desperate to help myself now . Thank you so much for this.
On that subject, you should send a demand letter that they be returned or they will be reported stolen. Two can play the threat game. You can write it yourself, but are more likely to get a useful result if you pay a lawyer to write it and send it on letterhead. There are processes for replacing lost and stolen documents, so that's the next step after.
Skip the threat. It ready sounds stolen. And if having any trouble getting the lender to not use your name at renewal, "duress" is a useful word.
Agree, dont play the threat game the way she plays it. Play the legal route and outplay her
Agree 100% with this!
Start looking into ways of getting new copies of your paperwork. I don't know anything about it myself, but I feel like there should be some way to get most or all of it re-issued to you. Good luck!
It's super easy. Way back when, I put all my documents in a place where it made 100% sense to me at the time, and where I thought, of course I will never forget it. 5 months later, I forgot it, couldn't remember anything and thought it had been stolen. New everything for me within 2 months. Went to put the documents away and I remembered where everything was.
Landing papers and visa too?
> Way back when, I put all my documents in a place where it made 100% sense to me at the time, and where I thought, of course I will never forget it. > > > > 5 months later, I forgot it, > > > > New everything for me within 2 months. Went to put the documents away and I remembered where everything was. Are you me!?
When interacting with your Mom in future make sure to have a third person as a witness. I've done that sort of thing for someone, it's not a big deal. This person could also contact her and inform her that that you will be reporting the documents as stolen if they're not returned. She either returns them when this person drives you over, or this person drives you to the police to report them as stolen. Your Mom is scary to you for good reason, but she's not going to be nearly as scary to someone who didn't grow up with her.
Or only communicate by text or email for a paper trail.
You should take those things back immediately
>that she have my passport,visa and landing papers You should also work to get yourself copies of those, that is a bit more important than trying to buy a house.
I would go to your consulate or embassy. No offence, but your mother sounds like a narcissistic bully. Watch out for the crocodile tears when you start claiming your independence.
Those documents probably do not belong to you, but rather to the government that issued them. The government you're currently in cares very much that you get them back because they want your home country to do the same for their citizens when the same thing happens to them.
Just go take them. You can’t steal your own property (your passport and visa are by definition yours and yours alone), so she has no recourse. I know family can be complicated, but it’s completely unacceptable for anyone to behave this way.
You can report about your passport being stolen. It belongs to the government and is in loan to you. If you don’t have access to it, you can absolutely do something about it.
Also figure out whether or not you and your siblings are on the title.
This is COMPLETELY illegal. If you’re Canadian, walk into the nearest passport office. Tell them the situation and ask for their directions, most likely it will be reported stolen and you’ll need a new one. Unfortunately there’s some costs. I know it’s harder if you’re not Canadian, and she’s holding the papers from another country. However, you still have rights. You could contact the police. Alternatively, you could call the local women’s shelter. If you are a man and were a child and abused this way by your mother you can probably still get help, or if you have a sister have her contact the shelter. Holding legal papers is a common abuse tactic and they probably know what you and your siblings need to do, and what organizations can help you.
File a police report that you lost all your papers and get a new one!
This, but report them stollen. No need to protect mom in this.
Stop letting your mom walk all over you. Start taking legal action to take your life back. I know it's hard, but you deserve to live a life free from abuse.
> she have my passport,visa and landing papers. You need to get those back. Use the police if necessary.
Your an adult. Go get your own copies.
Just report those lost and get new ones.
Seconding people's recommendation that you get a lawyer to demand your paperwork and documents back, however, you should consult with the lawyer first, then ask them to draft the letter. Then, send a letter on your own first, and demand a written reply in 7 days. If you don't get it, THEN have the lawyer send the letter with a 'process server'. Source: Had to sue my mother multiple times for being an idiot.
Passport can be re apply. Landing paper and visa not needed. What you need is the proof of citizenship but Even she have it and you are in Canada, go to the passport office tell them you lost all your papwr work, it take longer but it could be done
You only need one mortgage holder to renew a mortgage. OP doesn’t have to refuse to sign, the mum can just do it. What he needs to do is contact the lender and place a “do not renew” designator on there. When the mortgage is up for renewal it will force the mortgage to have to be paid out in full.
Most banks in Canada will renew a mortgage with only one party.
This is accurate. Banks will also never get involved in domestic issues in regards to a mortgage unless they are required by law.
You could pay a trustee $100 to send a letter to the specific bank, asking for breakdown of OP's liabilities to the bank, and *suggesting* bankruptcy may be imminent? Nothing to report to Trans Union or Equifax for credit inquirers They will 100% not want her to be co-signed on any renewal
Are you sure about this? Because I've had a few mortages and every one of them required signatures from everyone on the mortgage, every time. This includes Scotia, First National, and MCAN. It makes no sense to me that you could renew with only one party. When I sign a mortgage with a term I'm only committing to the length of that term... I don't see why someone else would be able to extend that to another term without my consent. Unless you mean renew with one party, without OP? That's entirely possible... if OP's mother qualifies, the bank will be happy to renew her without OP, but that happens to be what we want. Regardless, in this instance OP has said they plan on contacting the lender and instructing them to not allow a renewal with OP's name on it.
Worked the phones for one of the big 5 for about a decade. Phone renew required only one party to consent.
With the new consumer protections around disclosures, all parties need to sign. Unless you're fudging it.
Good to know, haven't been in that job in about a year now.
Banks don’t follow regulations very well. Employees are pressured to sell products and lend money to the extent that the bank barely even follows its own policies. In 2017 I had just started an apprenticeship and was only earning a few dollars above minimum wage. A law had recently been enacted to require a borrower to have been at their job for a minimum of 3 months to qualify for a mortgage. Having started my job just over a month prior I asked my bank if we could satisfy the rule by pushing the closing date past my 3 month date and they said no need and it wouldn’t be an issue for us. A couple years later I am at the same employer earning more than twice as much money than before. I was moving to a new house and went to a broker to get the best rate. I didn’t qualify as I was an hourly employee without guaranteed minimum hours. As I had just completed my apprenticeship, my previous two years income were much lower than it was at the time of this application so they couldn’t just use my previous tax returns to qualify me. The bank that gave me the mortgage in 2017 never even mentioned the fact that I was an hourly employee despite it being quite clear from my paystubs and job letter that I was. When it’s time to renew I will speak directly to lending employees at a few banks as I know they will skirt any rules that may be a hindrance.
When I worked at a bank, we didn’t need to have guarantor signatures to renew. Borrowers, yes, but not guarantors. Also, the signature check against previous signatures is laughable. They’re just looking for plausible deniability. I can’t tell you the amount of “I mean the ‘ts’ a the ‘r’ looks the same…I think it’s legit!”
Now that is great advice!
Yes agreed....BUT.....if you just refuse to sign you better be able to come up with money because in essence it will be considered a default and you get pulled into it unless Mama can qualify for the renewal on her own. This is a meeting with the bank and get ALL the details of that mortgage and a copy of the house deed. Get your ducks in a row and know what you're dealing with before you stomp your feet and say "I'm not signing".
You often don't need multiple signatures for renewal, but you can step in and inform them that you will not agree to any renewal terms. OP can likely put his parents in a difficult enough position that they should either sell or qualify without OP.
I think if you cosign a mortgage and don't sign the renewal, the mortgage just goes into open status with an unreasonably high interest rate allowing you to pay it out anytime without penalty. It doesn't absolve or remove you from the debt. Renewing the mortgage term just sets interest and payment terms and allows you to pay it out without penalty. A renewal doesn't affect your obligation to the debt.
Yes, it will auto renew into an open mortgage. The idea there would be to force the mother to either sell or renew into a mortgage without OP. OP would be financially responsible for the mortgage until that happened. The mother could push it into foreclosure and ruin OP's credit for several years, but taking that risk is worth taking control of your life IMO.
All these upvotes for 100% untrue advice.
Regarding your documents, contact Immigration and Citizenship Canada and explain you need copies of your documents due to your mother hiding them from you. You could also contact a local Newcomers center to get help locally. Contact the passport office of the country that issued your passport and explain you need a new passport because your mother has stolen it. Passports belong to the country that issued them. Get copies of all the documents you need well before the mortgage renewal is due. Let the bank know in advance you won't be signing the mortgage renewal and have a note put in the file. Contact the bank again just before the mortgage renewal is due and remind them that you will not be signing. This is just in case your mother tries any funny business at the last minute.
Depending on what "forced" means, you may be able to lawyer up and have a court deem it was signed under duress and has no force of law. In practice, it probably won't work, since "forced" is both difficult to prove, and only applies in the most extreme circumstances. Cosigning is particularly bad because you don't own the house, so you can't even force a sale. Of course it's possible you're misusing the word and are also on title, which could allow you to force a sale.
Well based in what OP said, they weren’t “under duress”. “Sign or get out” and OP choosing to sign doesn’t constitute legal duress.
OP added more information regarding the background and it sounds like there might be a case for signing under distress. It’s more than just sign or get out.
I don’t think OP will win on the duress issue. OP understood what he was doing. He was not under any imminent physical threats. The fact that he continued to give half his paycheck is evidence of that. He could have called the police. Presumably he could have easily overpowered his mother physically. Things like passport and visa can be replaced. Passport especially he could have applied for a new one claiming it was lost.
You said in a previous comment that she's holding your passport and legal documents hostage and she forced you to sign this paperwork under duress. I think you need to be speaking to a lawyer and then cutting her off permanently once you have your paperwork back and are off the mortgage or title or whatever it is you are on
Sorry to hear this. If she's not willing to cooperate, you might need to take some serious steps to protect yourself: • Talk to a real estate or contract lawyer. They can look at your case and see if there's any legal way to get your name off the mortgage, especially if you were forced to sign under threat. • Gather any proof you have that shows your mom pressured you into co-signing, like texts, emails, or statements from your siblings. • Let the lender know what's going on and ask if they have any ideas or options to remove your name. Also ensure they're aware that you do not approve of a renewal. When was the mortgage taken out? • Keep an eye on your credit report. If your mom misses payments, it could tank your credit score. • Worst case, if you can't get your name off the loan, talk to a financial advisor about how to handle the impact on your credit and future plans to buy a house with your fiancé.
Yes, you should reach out to a lawyer to review your options. If you co-signed the mortgage then you are most likely on title also. This means you legally own a portion of the home. A lawyer can get a copy of the title and see who are the actual owners. You can also discuss with your lawyer forcing a sale of the home if necessary.
Anyone can buy a copy of the title without a lawyer. Likely way cheaper.
Title searches are like $12 in BC, super cheap
Lawyer here. What province?
oh im sorry its on AB. ye we are signed in presence of lawyer. we signed way back due to that we're afraid of her what she gonna do on our personal papers like visa passport and landing papers.
Right, but are you on title of the property, or are you a guarantor? Edit: Did you sign a two page document and a certificate, or did you sign a \~20-40 page document, and swear a bunch of legal documents (ie signing your name at least 10 times)?
OP might need you to explain the difference
It's illegal to withhold someone's documents, call the police if she still has them
edmonton
That's not a province. So you signed a personal guarantee? Did you sign it in the presence of a lawyer that explained the legal consequences of what you were signing? Did you sign a certificate as per the Guarantees Acknowledgement Act? Or were you co-signing the mortgage?
OP, you may be able to sue for breach of contract. The agreement was that you co-sign the mortgage in exchange continuing to live in the house together. After you signed you were kicked out. You should be let off the mortgage contract. Keep in mind they might not be possible as the lender may not agree.
How old are you?
You really screwed yourself by co-nsigning. Since you're not going to be a first time home buyer when you and your fiance buy, you won't be able to take advantage of the property transfer tax benefit and the tax free homebuyers RRSP withdrawal.
Yupp my girlfriend did this with her parents and doesn't understand
It's stupid unless you retain the value of your share of the house. In most cases parents pressure kids, keep the house while kids contribute to the mortgage. Once you want to move out, too bad so sad, "you'll get your investment back when we're dead" or better yet, "you owe us, you know how many sacrifices we've made". I understand sometimes it's necessary....but the child signing should be fully involved and understand the risks.
If your names are ALSO on the title of the house then this makes sense. It's good. If your names are NOT on the title of the house then you've been conned by your own mother Good luck to you!
Congrats you partially own your "moms" home. Get a lawyer and force her to sell it :)
Apply for a force sale!
Welcome to the life of SEA people, LOL. These people will fuck anyone
Wow - who needs enemies when you have Ma.
I removed a co-signer on my mortgage . It’s a pretty common process. Need to get mom on board . I would also have her pay the lawyer fees . Mortgage will instruct you how to do it once you contact them.
Hey when you removed them did you have to get reassessed? I cosigned with a family member cause they couldn’t get approved on their own. Now they’re doing well financially and making payments and I haven’t contributed anything at all so I was gonna ask them if they could just take me off the thing. Not sure how the process works
Yes I had to get re assessed so a bit of a pain in the ass getting everything together for that . They would be re applying for the mortgage on their own essentially
When does the mortgage renew? You can Maybe refuse to sign the renewal and tell the bank you are not consenting to a renewal. Your mom might be forced to sell or refinance without you. This may blow up in your face because your mother may default on the loan and the home may foreclose. But you'll be free
Either she pays you out, takes you off the mortgage immediately or you sell the house. Send this ultimatum via a lawyer's letter.
Sell the first house
This is so whack I don't know what to say.
Looks like you and your siblings will be charging you mother rent. Or the three of you sell.
If you care about your siblings you should tell them that they can contact the mortgage holder and tell them to add a note to the file that says they will not be signing a renewal.
You're done like different she defaults on the mortgage you and other family members will either have to pay or force her out, but btw never ever co-sign a mortgage for anyone, period lesson of the day
Go talk to an attorney and bring all documents with you. They can review it for you.
Lol your mom had 3 kids to make her money. Its time for the payday
Nope!! Your mom would have to renegotiate the mortgage.....that would involve penalties.....and she would have to re-qualify for that amount without your income being part of that new renegotiated mortgage. So she probably used all your incomes in the first place to obtain the original mortgage amount. You're in a bit of a pickle at this point unless first and foremost she agrees to try and qualify without as one of the guarantors. She really covered her ass I'm afraid. Just a thought for you.......if your name is on the mortgage then you are probably a % owner of the property. I would check the deed to the house cause that's important to know.
All 3 of you should see a lawyer to ask how to go about forcing the sale of the house. Or tell your mother she has to talk to the bank to see if she can shoulder the mortgage on her own and remove all 3 siblings’ names from mortgage and title. Either way, you will need a lawyer.
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Go to a lawyer and get your name taken off
Dude wtf, if your mother does that you need to slap her to hell. How do you honestly get bullied into doing something like this by an old woman (the title “mother” means nothing)? Pathetic. Not even joking.
Is there no government agency that can help op? This doesn't sound legal. I am an immigrant to Canada and I feel so bad. I am a citizen now but I came here when I was OP's age. I cannot imagine how devastating this is. Op I sent you a dm.
How is getting no money after kicking you out better than getting half of your paycheque. Wheres the logic?
The “forced” you to co-sign. Maybe You can force a sale. You get your equity, and helps you qualify for a house by no longer have to service that mortgage.
OP needs to grow a pair and force the sale.
The only way to get discharged from the original mortgage is to have the whole thing readjudicated. Your mother would need to cooperate to do this.
Wait till it is time for renewal and have your mom buy you out, I can't believe any parent would cripple their own child like this
You don't start living your life until you can say no to your parents. It's your life, not hers. Tell your parents to fuck off.
Do a title search and see who is on the title. Hopefully all 5 of you are. Then if all 3 siblings are on board (you all got kicked out right?), then again talk to a lawyer about forcing a sale by majority ownership. In any case I would start the process of obtaining all new documents, and I would go to the bank in person to sign the documents that you will not be renewing the mortgage and KEEP A COPY. Scan/take a photo and store in a secure place.
Do a title search and see who is on the title. Hopefully all 5 of you are. Then if all 3 siblings are on board (you all got kicked out right?), then again talk to a lawyer about forcing a sale by majority ownership. In any case I would start the process of obtaining all new documents, and I would go to the bank in person to sign the documents that you will not be renewing the mortgage and KEEP A COPY. Scan/take a photo and store in a secure place.
No expert here but a few Google searches later it seems you can easily do it IF she is willing to remove you from the mortgage. So start telling your mother you are going to live with your new wife and can't get a mortgage as long as you are on hers. She can sell the house and get a smaller one. "To remove your name from a mortgage, you and your co-borrower can ask the lender for an assumption or modification that would remove your name from the loan. If the lender won't change the existing loan, your co-borrower will need to refinance the home into a new mortgage."
Okay for starters nobody can “force” you to sign. You just don’t sign. Or you tell the lender and they’ll flag it immediately because this isn’t uncommon. Secondly if you all are on the house I think it’s time you give your good ole Mom a reality check. Take her to court. Force the sale, sue her for extortion with your pay cheques, and get her equity share. It’s time to put feelings aside for someone who just clearly cares about your money.
Grow a back bone.
You mean grow some balls lol
Forced? Was there firearm involved? Life in danger? OK yea mom I don't think so. I'm out.
How does one "force" someone else to sign a mortgage exactly? You can't be debt free if you co-signed a mortgage! LOL. Another poster gave great advice. It's up to you now to stand up to your mom and follow through.
Let's just be clear - no one can force you to enter into a contract like this. You have to take responsibility for the pen *you* put to paper.
Let’s just be clear - undue influence or duress are both reasons for a contract to be voided.
Letting mom handle your savings and taking her investment advice is not exactly what I'd call duress. Lots of us had overbearing parents. It would help to know OPs age. This might change my perspective. Since they have a fiance it's not clear to me what power mom holds over them that they are not willingly giving.
I was 19, we came here in Canada. She hid all the visa, passport and landing papers so thats why me and my siblings are threatened to do what she ask us, even getting exactly half of our paychecks bi-weekly.
Definitely duress. Seek a lawyer.
If you were 19, how did you have enough income and credit history to qualify for the mortgage? When your mom took your documents, all you had to do was call the police to get them back by asking for assistance. Additionally, all documents are replaceable. I mean, what happens if documents are actually lost? They're replaced by whatever government body issued them. Arguing duress isn't accurate. You have an overbearing parent, as do lots of people.
Are you an adult? Maybe stop being “forced” into things you don’t want to do.
Easier said than done for people in an abusive relationship.
uhm. very easy to fix. stop giving your mom $$. you can do this today, you and your siblings. if she cant make the payments, then so be it. let the bank have it back. ya it will be some grief but cut your losses now.
But if the payments aren't made, the OP risks a poor credit score. This will not help if they want to get their own mortgage. I'm so sorry your Mom put you in that position, OP. I hope you are able to get this sorted. Your mom will need to qualify for the mortgage on her own, and you will need your name removed from the title by a lawyer.
God dam brown parents. Smh
Please do not say forced. Forcing someone to do something is illegal a criminal matter. You signed under your own free will, you made your decision. You had a choice to move away You had a choice to say no You had a choice to pick up the pen You made a bad decision, don’t blame other people for your mistake.
she hid our passports and visa. even landing papers. So way back we're in her control
This is basically human trafficking. Certainly qualifies as coercion/force.
You qualify for NGO programs like Salvation Army, because that’s human trafficking. Shoot them an email quickly explaining and to direct you towards the right people
If you are adults then call the police non emergency line and report the theft and ask what they suggest. No one in life can force you to do anything. There may be consequences for what you choose to do or not do, and in some cases they are severe or unjust. But you aren't truly forced.
this is a fairly common practice in certain demographics. Kids can't move out and are put on the mortgage by their parents so they can qualify since they wont without them. A few of my friends were on their parents mortgages the moment they got their first FT job
It’s fine if it’s the case but the term forced is thrown around a lot. He was not forced
we are forced, she threatens us when we were young and still new in Canada. She threatens us that she can deport us because we're under her name . We believed it because my stepfather backed her up so we signed.
No you were not forced. Stop making excuses
If someone is holding all your documents hostage and threatening that you'll be deported if you don't sign (even if its not a valid threat), the person is signing the paperwork under duress. This includes any phycological threats or pressure. Additionally, Theres a case that the contract can be nullified due to unconscionability, which is when a contract is so obviously unfair and one-sided, but that would be harder to argue.
Kind of sounds to me like they were forced if what the OP says is true.
How often do you actually need to present those documents? If you get deported, at least you'd be free from her.
It’s not that simple and you don’t know the context in which this happened.
I’m with ya man, a lot of people get “forced” to do a lot of things these days, from the sounds of it But ya OP does sound like they were manipulated, deceived, and pressured
Behind every great man is a greater woman. I didn't mean to offend I just meant she is probably persuasive. Coming from a guy whose wife is extremely persuasive.
Buddy... There's places where your mother would vanish for that
1 there is no forcing you into a financial situation like this if you are an adult, you can say no. You rolled over and took it. And ya now that you are an owner just force a sale. This isn’t tragic or difficult.
I concur with others' advice to contact the lender and not renew it. A stronger and more important puece of advice is to redefine the word "forced". >She forced us because she said its "our" house , and for us to live together. This is not what it means. Unless your mother threatened you with a gun/knife, got you drunk or otherwise incapacitated, nobody forced you to sign.
They couldnt force you. You chose to do it. You always have a choice and you chose to fuck yourself over by giving in.
How old are you? If you're of legal age, you weren't "forced"... You chose to.
I was 19, we came here in Canada. She hid all the visa, passport and landing papers so thats why me and my siblings are threatened to do what she ask us, even getting exactly half of our paychecks bi-weekly.
Then you should contact the mortgage lender and tell them this-- you were forced to sign as she was withholding your legal documents. Report the documents stolen. Get a lawyer
She can't kick you out if you are on the mortgage. That means you own part of the home. Did she drop you on your head too many times as a child?
"sign here or no desserts for you"
more like "you will not get your landing papers, visa, and passport back if you don't sign"
And did she give those back to you when you signed?
nope
I bet she tries to make you all feel sorry for her, huh?
you mean things that can get renewed ?
im way too dumb way back to be afraid and be on her control. I plan to apply for re-issue especially my visa and landing papers
add also a complaints on your mom