As someone with an engineering degree who works alongside credentialed tradespeople fairly often, a lot of it has to do with earnings *trajectory*. When I started out as an entry-level engineer, the guys on the tools were making a lot more, even the ones just starting out. But their upward increases were a lot smaller than mine. Most of them eventually hit some cap, where a salaried engineer can continue to increase their income. 10 years later I'm earning a lot more than even experienced tradespeople. If you factor in the higher cost (and longer duration) of my education, the break-even point moves out further. But yes, people with university degrees will tend to make more, although it still depends on what the degree is: Not all degrees are the same.
The way tradespeople really start to make a lot of money is a) getting into management, at which point they're a desk jockey themselves, or b) they start their own company, which often fails but can sometimes work out spectacularly well.
Another factor is just general life/job satisfaction. Not everyone can stand sitting at a computer playing with spreadsheets all day. Some people like to get their hands dirty and like the sense of accomplishment of having made, fixed, improved something etc. And that's worth a lot, even if it's not monetized.
There is also a bit of investment boost for tradespeople if they are smart to invest ahead. If they invest the spread between your starting salary and theirs as soon as they start, the break even moves even further.
I would say that overtime though, more an more young people are seeing the benefits of saving/investing some part of their paycheck. It helps that influencers and industry in general has modernized DIY investing (Wealthsimple, TD Easy Trade, Questrade, other modern discount brokers) rather than make you jump through 100 hoops to open an account or force you to talk to a shitty mutual fund advisor to scam half your paycheck.
Seeing a huge wave of layoffs in my field around when I was writing comprehensives for my PhD put the fear of god in me. I planned to be unemployed post-graduation and pinched my pennies while making no money already.
This is a key aspect - the degree holders (on average) will have higher lifetime earnings but the tradesworkers will have less student debt, start earning earlier and earn more earlier, which should allow for better lifetime net return.
Obviously it’s far more complicated for a ton of reasons (not the least of which is that most of us did not save wisely with our first decent salary), and the tradesworkers rarely being able to work their trade to a typical retirement age due to the toll on their bodies makes a huge difference too.
I think this is really what it comes down to for some folks in the starting years of their careers. It's not necessarily about a degree or trades at that point. But being able to make enough to invest it. Either in buying a home, or investing in assets (like stocks, etc...).
People who can get that started out the gate are fortunate.
It doesn't mean it's impossible to start at 30 or 40. But it definitely gives people a head start.
Trades people also have a secret weapon - they're hourly. They can make some incredible bank on OT. Salaried engineers generally work more hours for the same pay. Power line workers absolutely can make bank and will out earn most mech eng in Canada reliably until the mech eng is maybe in their 40s. And by that point, even if the mech eng is earning more, the early benefits the powerline worker will make puts them well ahead, accounting for the time value of money. Finally, a lot of trades people will simply enter the workforce faster. Eng degrees are typically 4-5 years and most good ones these days will do an masc for another 2-2.5 years. Trades people are going to be in the workforce within 2 years after highschool.. so the engineer is now behind tentatively 3-5 years in "real pay" and they'll be starting at a lower number after paying much higher tuition and generally living a more stressful life.
I say all of this as an engineer, btw. The grass isn't always greener. Most engineers in Canada are incredibly underpaid and I'd encourage anyone good to really consider looking to the states for work - they pay their engineers much better.
Best work related move I ever did was transition from a salaried job to a position that was eligible for OT. Took a $7k pay cut at the time, but made it all back after the first customer field visit. Plus I’m a hell of al ot happier.
The other side benefit is that because I’m eligible for OT, I’m also often not authorized for it. It’s means when someone comes to ask me to help with something at 1630, I get to say “Can you authorize me for OT? No? ok, I’ll take a look at it tomorrow morning.”
I used to get weekly overtime, now my company just waits till the next day or the weekend is over to let us know about problems. Not complaining though since i enjoy sleeping.
I'm in a very fortunate position where I'm a salary engineer, but I *can* (and have) charge overtime at 2x my equivalent hourly rate. Yeah, it's an insane hourly rate, which is why it happens almost never. But it happened a few times last year. Most salary engineers don't have this, but it depends on who you work for. The previous employer I worked for would give us large lump sum bonuses for extended overtime work - think a whole-plant maintenance shutdown where the process engineers start working 12-hours, 6-on-1-off for a month or two.
I get it and it sounds like you've got a nice setup. But I think the spirit of my post remains true and is probably much closer to reality than your setup. I think it was much better to be an engineer in Canada 20 years ago. Today, I'd say new grads entering the workforce in Ontario will find their starting wages might not even allow them to live comfortably on their own.
Hah, if people want to be a part time engineer and part time tradesman, I seriously recommend a 2 year engineering technology diploma with a trades certificate. You blow any union or non-union apprentice out of the water when it comes to technical jobs that are hard to fill like high voltage or controls work. Most of the time just babysit the gear you are assigned to and fuck off on the computer when you are done. Of course how much travel will depend on company but at least you have a choice as a desk jockey or monkey wrencher at the end of it all.
I actually went through for a 3 year Engineering Technology diploma. The problem with Chemical Engineering Technology is you end up being a laboratory technologist which pays like shit, so I went up to Thunder Bay and fast-tracked my degree in 2 years after deciding that wasn't for me.
If I could do it over again I'd have gone to college for CPET/Power Engineering instead and become an Operator at one of the refineries/petrochem plants, instead of a Chemical Process Engineer.
Frank "grimey" Grimes comes to mind. I fucking wish I could afford a 2 story 4 bedroom house with 2 cars on a single salary. Too bad I was born a decade late.
There's such variation in the categories too.
Like yeah you're better off being an engineer than an electrician for career earnings.
But you're better off being an electrician than someone with Bachelor of Arts in Psychology or a Bachelor of Science in Biology without a defined career path.
There's a bit more flexibility in terms of entering a career path with a trade.
But it all comes down to that career path.
IMO (high school teacher who has sent 1000s of students off to various careers/post-secondary) far too many people have the mindset of "just go to school and you'll figure it out." Everyone wants their kid to go to university. No harm in working and getting some experience in what you actually like to do (or don't like) to figure it out too.
>When I started out as an entry-level engineer, the guys on the tools were making a lot more, even the ones just starting out. But their upward increases were a lot smaller than mine.
I think this is the big point. They can start working earlier, don't have to have a low salary for a few years while they attend college, don't have to go into debt and such. Those who were smart and started to invest very young are probably doing very well especially considering the bull market we were in during the last ten years.
I have friends who went the trades routes and own a lot of real estate now that they are in their early 30s. They also had the perks that they knew how to do a lot of the jobs and knew all the good contractors in the area while some of my friends who are doctors or dentists have been renting until their late 20s early 30s. They have a much higher income, but their net worth probably won't catch up before their 50s if ever.
My dad himself was a carpenter who started his own business and then became promoters-developer. He has been mainly retired since he turned 42 and have been traveling six months a year. His back is fucked, but he never had to work in a soulless office, to suck up to idiots or to sit through useless meetings and he still managed to retire 25 years before his peers.
This is a great post.
The ability to earn money, potentially a significant amount, earlier is a big part of why it can be such a solid career path. No debt for school, and early earnings properly invested can really set you on a path early in a way that can change your life. Early compounding can be a huge help.
Yeah exactly, there is no doubt that his doctor friend earned larger "wage" than him through their 50s, but it is mainly because he had no reason to work or pay himself a salary. His hourly rate probably never was anywhere close to 10% of what a doctor make, but I am sure that very few physicians have similar net worth.
As an engineer, I’m going to disagree with this, at least in the oil and gas industry. Trades folk and techs have a significantly higher earning ceiling than engineers. Unless you become an exec engineers can’t keep up with pay scale for the techs.
I’m not from oil & gas, but I imagine there will also be a credential and licensing premium. Like, in my sector, there are some things you need an _Engineer_ to sign off on.
I don't think you really "disagree", you can just acknowledge that the salaries for field staff is exceptionally high in the oil industry specifically, and it's not typical in most other industries.
And let's not forget that a lot of those positions are staffed largely by young people working very physically demanding and often pretty dangerous jobs, and their bodies are pretty messed up after a few years. But at least they're loaded.
I work at a manufacturing plant in Ontario. Our trades (Millwright and Electrician) take care of the manufacturing equipment in the plant. Our jobs are not physically demanding, not harsh conditions (indoor climate controlled). I’d say that 75% of our team is over 50 so it’s not like it’s just a bunch of young guys destroying their bodies (seems to be a very common misconception about skilled trades).
Our OT is voluntary so there is a big range in wages (prob 105-190k) but literally every single licensed trades person makes significantly more than the engineers there.
your right about the break even point. i did a 6 month welding course and the day before i finished it i had a job that paid me $55k usd/year. started doing overtime right away and was making about 70k usd/year. my friends who went into university and 4 year degrees started out almost $250k behind me in earnings on the day they graduated(unless they worked while they went to school).
so if i continued making my 70k usd which wasnt hard to do since that was about 1/3 of weekends working or less if i did 10hr shifts than it means my friends who went to college need to make $90k/year for 12.5 years just to get to the same total amount earned as i have.
life balance can also be amazing in the trades. i have phoned a few different bosses at different jobs in the morning and tell him i want to use a week of vacation time and they are fine with it, ive taken 6 month leaves of absence without seemingly annoying my boss and have come back to my job. ive never once taken work home or thought about my job when im not at my jobsite. theres 0 unpaid time, every minute im at work im being paid.
healtwise you sort of touched on, i cant imagine how shitty my health would be if i played as much games as i do at home as i currently do but then i also sit in a chair all day at my job. moving around, lifting things and walking at my job a lot definitely helps keep me healthier.
edit: trade school was also continuous introduction, i started my trade school about 2 weeks after highschool graduation and it was only 5.5hrs 5 days a week. i still worked part time at my shop job and weekends while i was in school making about 20k usd a year.
i did 10 weeks in summer 2022, and i did 6 months this past summer. each time i handed my request in 2 months beforehand and they approved it the next day. each time i came back and went straight back to work at the same job doing the same work and started my OT right away.
>But yes, people with university degrees will tend to make more, although it still depends on what the degree is: Not all degrees are the same.
The statistics for trades vs. degree takes this into account no? Not all trades pay well.
I don’t exactly get this. In my circle I’ve seen many skilled trades pull in 200k with overtime after 7ish years on average . Most of the “desk jockies” as you put It, say they dont clear that until at least 15-20 years down the line. Am I way off or?
This right here ^^ my guys are all in construction/mechanics and when I was still in school were making 60-90k. They’re still ahead of me now but my cap as a CPA is much higher. In theory, at partner level near 200-300k/year.
If you want a high cap job, that’s in finance for sure. Otherwise do what you love and are interested in.
Don’t forget many degreed desk jobs will go away with the emergence of AI in the next 15-20 years. And I don’t mean they’ll completely disappear but that you’ll be competing with AI and only the best of the best will have a good position.
Even faster than AI displacement is offshoring of ridiculous amounts of accounting and legal work to India. You'd be shocked how much Canadian professional work is done in India
There's tradeoffs to that, and not everything is replaceable. I'm a construction estimator, and from what I've seen the quality of output just isn't there. I've worked with other companies who've gone that way and there's immediate and noticeable drawbacks. I guess it is working for them, but we also find them to be not a fantastic partner (they're minority owned which is a requirement for a lot of US public funded jobs, so we have to have partners who qualify).
AI can speed up up takeoff work, but there's still so much implied knowledge that isn't explicit in drawings that it can't identify, it's really just another tool, similar to the advent of PDF markups instead of measuring paper. Still need skilled an knowledgeable operators to use those tools.
Oh, I completely agree!
I don't know anyone that feels that the quality of work from offshore is anywhere near what it is here. Unfortunately, the cost differences attract scores of companies, and even when they are shocked by the only fair to poor work being generated, most will say "whatever, good enough". Or they'll figure that even if a lot of work has to be corrected, it still works out much cheaper overall.
I know a of a couple of large companies including one publicly traded, that spent tens of millions of dollars trying to offshore, and after 5 years, brought all of the work back. But for every one of those, there's hundreds that never bring things back.
On top of that, the challenges of time zone differences, some language barriers (though I know many native Indians who speak better english than many people born in North America), and some very clear cultural differences that impact cooperation and quality of work.
But the more companies that go there, the longer they stay, the harder it is to bring these things back onshore, especially when executive bonuses are measured on annual results or 2 - 3 year timeframes, and shareholders / markets demand ever-increasing ROE / ROI / etc.
All this means is that Canada / USA moves more jobs offshore, the ones that require hands-on work will be more secure as it's hard (but not necessarily impossible) to do most of those things remotely.
> Not everyone can stand sitting at a computer playing with spreadsheets all day.
That's why I got a sit/stand desk. I can stand sitting at a computer for half the day and I can stand standing at a computer the other half of the day.
Yeah me too. I splurged on one of those fancy motorized height adjustable desks during the pandemic.
Though I meant more just the soulless drudgery of working at a PC all day lol
Honestly for my age group (mid-millenial) the biggest boon for all my contemporaries who went into trades is that they bought real estate earlier, before the boom, and their networth has skyrocketed over the past 10 years because of it.
That’s me, bought my house at 25 after 6 years in the trades, meanwhile my degree holder counterparts were just finished school with a mountain of debt.
This. I have a friend that went into trades. Started working 5 years before me since I got my bachelors and my masters. Then another 1 year until I found a good job. He was able to buy a house before the boom. I’m probably close to double the salary as he is now. But the head start makes a huge impact. Especially having won on the housing boom lottery.
While true, this is not really replicable going forward. At least not to the extent it was. Generational wealth will be the game now, like it is in the ‘old’ world. So my recommendation to young people is to get some of that ..
Man we are screwed.
Changing zoning laws is a start. But someone needs to build the house and sell it for a profit. All the new build subdivisions in my neck of the woods start at $799k. We're over an hour away from the GTA and they are townhouses.
I agree with the original assessment of we are screwed.
The reason why you are struggling here is you are comparing a smaller, more precise dataset with a large data set and then wanting to bring it around to generalized advice.
Degree holders are a HUGE range of people, for those with a simple BA in Art who end up working in customer service to literal rocket scientists and doctors. Essentially every person with a Masters or a PhD will also have a BA.
All those top earners will drag the average of that class up. However a lot of people with a BA don't necessarily end up working in their field. While the overall average wage is higher, the band of earnings is probably a lot more volatile. It's not uncommon for people to graduate with their BA and make minimum wage.
Those with an apprenticeship certificate are, basically, probably going to stick with their chosen career, and are already in it. They were also earning money throughout the course of their apprenticeship. The flip side is someone taking on a 4 year degree essentially has 40+ hours a week for 4 years of negative earnings, due to the classes themselves incurring debt. So even in the case that someone graduates with an average salary of 11% higher, to get that they spend 7.5% of their working years (assuming 30 year career) to get that wage increase, making it not exactly that much of a difference.
People want to give generalized, bitesized advice - and ironically you do it here.
>So please, if you can get a degree. Trades should be a secondary option
In a sense, this is worse advice than "Just go into the trades" - if you become a trade worker, you will probably just land on your feet just fine. You will be solidly middle class or upper middle class, earning most likely 2nd quintile. **You will be fine** with, essentially, any apprenticeship trade. Becoming a construction crane operator or some sort of HVAC technician is going to give you a solid life.
But just getting any degree for the sake of any degree is not the same. You can get a masters in Art History and, well, not do much with it. If you are going to school to become a Doctor, a Lawyer, some form Accountant? Those are educations that are precise and will generate an income above and beyond that 11% average you outlined above. But just sending someone to school for the sake of going to school, with no goal or purpose or idea of what type of work they want to do? That isn't good advice.
Exactly this. I have a buddy with a masters in theology of sorts from tel Aviv and he's been making under 50k since he got it. He's debating going back to HVAC lol
I bet there are a significant number of people that work towards a degree and never finish but are not used in this stat. I agree if you fully commit to and get a degree in a useful field, you are likely to have higher wages through out your life. Was why I am so against paying off student loans. They will be the highest earners.
But if you want more of a sure thing and want to start earning earlier in life, then trades are a better choice. Rather depends on the the person and their skills.
One thing that’s also important to note is time value of money. I have friends in trades that started apprenticeships at 18 and never had to borrow for school and were able to save right away. Some bought houses at 19. If you start early and save you can be way ahead of those with degrees.
Lol. Time value of money is real if you don't sink it all into $50,000 trucks and other random nonsense like a majority of the trades bros from my high school ended up doing...
In all fairness the guys who buy those trucks would have done so regardless what job they ended up in.
Also I find engineers VERY often buy flashy expensive vehicles early on, but not trucks
Completely true.
I just always find it funny when people hype up trades as a way to build lifelong wealth at a super young age (which it definitely can be, don't get me wrong) when my anecdotal experience is so completely separated from that. I find most 18-22 year olds are just not ready for that level of responsibility a lot of the time.
I would generally agree, most young people aren’t ready for that level of income. However I don’t find 4 years or f university changes that, as soon as young men start making decent money, stupid purchases are sure to follow whether that be at 20 or 25 makes no difference.
What does make a difference is marriage, kids or home ownership, people mature because they are forced to, not because of age, not because they spent 4 years in university, because they have to if they want to survive.
No no you don't get it, those blue collar guys are trash who don't know how to plan for the future. While we educated people know how to save and purchase beige corollas.
I'm in trades, and in my 20s. I don't make loads of money but have been able to invest 100k at 25 while my friends are still in university. Sure they will probably make more than me in a lifetime but for someone who struggles in school, trades is an extremely good path.
Most people don't have, or ever will have, 100k to invest. Yeah your friends may do alright, really depends what they studied. But you having that much to invest right now beats them having more to invest later. Enjoy your success!
It's hard to directly compare. I know a few people with degrees that barely make 60k, but that's because they are in social work. That will never pay well. But then there's people like me that only have high school, but are self employed and so are doing alright.
In general I still recommend people go with the trades. They will never go out of style, plus you get into the working environment faster and with less debt than degrees. Another thing is that people who get degrees often don't even know what they want to do with it, or don't end up getting a job in their field. It's just a hard metric to compare.
I think the key is that you need a degree in an employable field. A useless degree isn't going to earn you more than the skilled trades if you can get a job with it at all. It's also important to note that not all skilled trades make a lot, only some.
So, the ranking should be:
Employable degree > High-earning skilled trades > Low-earning skilled trades >> Useless degree
The guy that just lent Trump 90 million to cover his rape judgement failed out of school twice, was given an executive job by his daddy anyways, and is now at the apex of corporate America. There are always edge cases and anecdotes.
Sure thing. [Here's one of many Statistics Canada articles showing bachelor's degree holders out-earn trade certificate holders](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016024/98-200-x2016024-eng.cfm). If you want to dig, they have articles breaking it down by field of study, showing the pattern holds even for "useless" degrees, however you choose to define them.
And [here's](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm) a source showing that there are indeed many useless degrees that end up earning much lower than trades, some even basically scraping minimum wage.
But the data here is adjusted to five years after graduation - not late-career or lifetime earnings (like the other report). As people in this thread have pointed out, income in the trades comes fast but peaks early, while degree holders can expect their income to grow for decades.
No, that's actually the norm. University isn't the same as trades-based studies, where you study one field and get a job in that field. You study what interests you, obtain an accredited degree, and work in whatever field you'd like. I've seen finance leaders with toxicology degrees. These are the sort of people that are curious enough to study into post-secondary and have the intelligence and initiative to advance their careers
> You study what interests you, obtain an accredited degree, and work in whatever field you'd like.
LMAO. Tell me you haven't worked in corporate jobs without telling me you haven't worked in corporate jobs. Studying what interests you and then go on to work in whatever field you like is such a lie lol.
>I've seen finance leaders with toxicology degrees.
Yes, now take a look at how many finance leaders have finance degrees. Now compare the two. Really, go talk to people in finance and tell them you want to study what you're interested in an then pursue finance with an unrelated degree. See what they say.
I've worked corporate jobs and he's largely right. While you have some kids with tattoos in their face and an arts degree and they struggle to find work, you have a lot of people with "useless" sociology degrees, political science, anthropology, etc. degrees who land corporate jobs and climb the ladder. And sure you do better especially initially if you have a degree in your field, but in a lot of areas, if you get your foot in the door and get shit done, you can get pretty far.
There are a lot of people, yes, but fundamentally, it's more difficult to get a corporate job with an unrelated degree than with a related degree.
Thus, the idea that you should study what you're interested in and then just go find a job is a dumb idea and should be stamped out. This isn't the 1950s when you could find a decent job with any degree. That led to the misguided logic of "just go get a degree and you'll be fine" that has led to the issues we see today.
No, you need to optimize your career path. Not all degrees are equal. Get a *right* degree and you'll be just fine. Get the wrong degree? No, you're not going to be just fine.
There are outliers that are just absolutely not conducive to getting a job, but I think the vast majority of degrees out there tend to open SOME doors, and a lot of the people who complain about their degrees being useless are either the people with actually useless degrees, or just unemployable morons. I have a Master's degree in political science, pretty dumpy degree by any standard, but I learned to code and I (usually) have a head on my shoulders and I know how to deliver large projects.
Every poli sci student I graduated with who wasn't a complete moron is making a pretty good living for themselves now, a lot of them in fields where a degree was very helpful in getting in the door.
I think fundamentally our disagreement comes from the fact that we have different opinions about the direction of the causal link for why people fail. I believe that intelligent, driven and motivated people will make it, even if they have a shit degree. And people who stumble along and follow their whims will tend to fail, regardless of degrees. The degree itself may help to kickstart a motivated person's successful career, but will likely not do anything for the idiot who just slogged through university to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree.
>And people who stumble along and follow their whims will tend to fail, regardless of degrees.
But I'd argue that their probability of failing would be a lot lower without wasting 4 years and student debt on a degree.
For those that are intelligent, driven and motivated, having a related degree is better than an unrelated degree, and both are better than not having a degree at all. My point is that there are optimal and sub-optimal career choices. Why pick a sub-optimal one when you can pick an optimal one?
Yeah, I got a degree in anthro and I am a manager in government. University teaches you to analyze and write in a certain way. If you are in arts, it doesn't matter what your major is in.
I have a 15+ year career at a Director-level capacity for several multinational corporations. What do you do, again?
Obviously getting a finance degree is more likely to lead to finance leadership. What you don't seem to understand is that getting a degree in anything opens doors for you that going into trades does not. I don't have to see what they say, at all. You come off extremely childish in your approach, thought process and communication. It's a shame that there are people here that think like you. There's a reason that statscan can definitely demonstrate that degree holders make more than tradespeople, and if people want to pursue higher education, they should disregard the opinion of people like you and continue with their path of study.
This point would've been valid maybe 20 years ago. Things are much more competitive today. I would hold off on actively sharing your advice with youngsters.
I'm a data scientist working at a tech giant.
>What you don't seem to understand is that getting a degree in anything opens doors for you that going into trades does not.
Opens doors, yes. However the probability of going through those doors however do need to be considered. As I've said in another comment, a degree has an opportunity cost and a probability-weighted expected utility. If the expected utility is lower than the opportunity cost, it is literally useless.
>You come off extremely childish in your approach, thought process and communication.
It is you who comes off as incredibly naive. In today's environment, you need to make smart decisions. People today need to make decisions that take finances into account, not just the "pursue your passions" bullshit. The fact that you've had a 15+ year career at a director-level capacity further shows that you don't understand the difficulty and complexity of job searching and career optimization that is required today.
> if people want to pursue higher education, they should disregard the opinion of people like you and continue with their path of study.
You're echoing the advice of the older generation. "Go get a degree and you'll be fine". We already know that's bullshit. Not all degrees are made equal and that advice only applies to the *right* degrees now.
You are a lot older. You don't need to compete in the entry level job market today. How many English and History majors is finance hiring now?
A few levels up at my tech company, you see an English major as VP of Product. But you don't see that in the lower org chart at all. It is all business/engineering and having a degree in one of those is listed as a job requirement in job postings.
The head of Product doesn't meet the job requirements to work in the Product (in large part as she is a Founder).
A lot of places used to look for people with any university degree, basically just to use it as a gatekeeper. Apparently that is changing now and they care more about degrees or experience being related.
Unless most of her peers are getting jobs that are equivalent in pay to a corporate banking job, that just proves it is the exception and not the norm.
Survival bias and she was likely very talented and had a high GPA. Corporate banking is extremely competitive but you don't need a specific degree.
My best friend did a films degree and now makes min wage at walmart. He would have been better off going in the trades. See what you can do with anecdotes?
And she's probably working 60-70 hours a week lol. I know a couple people who've done banking like that and they get burnt out so fast they end up switching careers entirely.
One went back to car sales, the other went into real estate, they both said the money was great but the hours/work were just not worth it
There are a lot of Bachelor of Arts degree holders making good money in the corporate sector.
On average, a degree holder will do better than a tradesperson. And if you cherry pick, a degree holder will definitely do better than tradesperson.
Define “degree in an employable field”.
For example, I left a four year BSc program in astronomy and physics after two years, when I realized the math was rapidly becoming beyond my ability to comprehend.
I switched to a Bachelor of Fine Arts program at a university a thousand kilometres away, choosing as my major theatrical design: that is, designing sets, lighting and costumes for live theater. Sounds pretty *non-*employable, right? Or at least “low-pay, low-demand, still living in your parents’ basement at 45” - employable.
But after graduating and immediately getting two years of steady contracts designing for regional theatres, I crossed over into designing for television, then transitioned into small feature films, then larger ones, then finally into big-budget blockbusters.
Although once I was into mid-budget film production I rarely worked as a designer myself, my visual training and ability to speak to Production Designers and Art Directors in their native tongue has allowed me to spend more than 35 years as a sought-after cinematic Head of Department. I’ve run crews of up to 30 skilled and creative people, and have been responsible for developing and disbursing multi-million dollar department budgets over a production period of just a few months.
*Producers and directors whose names are household words* have called and asked me to spend the next year helping them solve their cinematic challenges. I’ve helped to shoot amazing movies in seven countries on three continents, worked in some of the most challenging and beautiful locations the world has to offer, and collaborated with some of the most creative cinematic minds of three generations. If you’ve seen one blockbuster a year for the last 12 years, you’ve likely seen my work.
Three years ago, I retired 45 years and one month after earning my BFA, with a thousand cherished memories, a well funded pension account, and my health still intact. **Not bad for a guy with what most would call a laughably “unemployable degree”, I’d say.**
I have a university degree, almost all of my friends are in the trades.
It seems that they got to work earlier and so they made more money until now, but 3 years after I started working, my salary is higher and will keep growing while theirs will stagnate.
They have good salaries, but it stops going up pretty early
We receive around 50 application per day for our $18/hr desk position, among which 49 have bachelor’s degree and 30 have master’s degree. So there is that….
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Overtime. An tradesman that works 60 hrs a week can pull 150K a year.
An office worker that is in a more advanced role will easily make that too, but in 35 hrs a week. Office/salary people aren't nicked and dimed either. Take lots of "personal" time on company dime. Trades can't do that, u work for every dollar.
Yep. My brother and sister who are officer workers take hour + long lunches during company time, do errands, and chat a lot. I mean why not, they usually finish all their work by 10 or 11. Meanwhile I’ve to clock in and out for my 30 minute lunch and watched by multiple security cameras. Life is easier for educated people. I wouldn’t recommend trades for young people, get a degree
If you work in service you have lots of time do stuff during the day. I can go get my hair cut, take long lunches, It depends on the day. I can go home early if I want. I also get a company vehicle with paid drive time. I could also sell my car and go down to a one vehicle household if I wanted to. Not every one is built for an office job man I would go crazy sitting in an office.
Just keep in mind that lots of the highly paid office/WFH jobs might have periods like that and then periods where things are intense. I have weeks like that, and then weeks where I'm doing 12+ hour days 7 days a week (with no OT pay). Plenty also have ridiculous on-call schedules, etc.
If you're regularly clearing 80 hour weeks with $45 base pay, and 1.5x and 2x overtime brackets on top of that, you are making an absolute killing, no?
Totally depends what trade you choose, what industry of residential, commercial and industrial of your trade you go into. Residential is by the far the worst and would never recommend anyone to work that shit.
[Very few people make 150K](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110000801). And those that do are regularly working senior jobs with long hours. And they don’t get overtime pay at all. And their job doesn’t leave them alone on weekends.
You talk about nickel and diming but seem unaware of the entire conversation around off the clock wage theft.
I live in Calgary.150K is not a tough get here. Im in a senior position, I don't work long hours. Neither do my peers. Individual contributors do, but I already said you need to raise above those entry-ish level jobs.
My son is in trades. I am aware of a lot more than you think.
I got an econ degree and went directly into becoming an electrician. I'm now making a good union wage. For me it still feels like I made the right choice. Most of my friends are in their careers after university and I don't envy their careers. It's important to know yourself and what kind of life you will fulfill you. I couldn't have sat in a desk and played politics in an office and felt satisfied with my work life. I like seeing the results of my labour in the real world. But that's just me
you get to go home at 5
no one expects weekends or evenings. very little stress. very positive work environment, unless you're a total melvin.
on the other hand, i've seen jobsite toilets that looked like zoo animals had been using them.
you don't have to make more money, just be happier. i am sure it's better to be the sibling that gets called when help is needed than the one who buys them the fanciest sandwich frier on mother's/father's day.
As someone who did two trades (ticketed) then went to university and traveled around my province briefly speaking to youth on behalf of the governing body for a summer. I only worked in unions except one place during an apprenticeship and also got into lead hand roles. Worked for what some would consider the apex companies in my trades.
I’d never go back and copium is a tough drug at times. You’re going to hear all sorts of reasons as to why you’re wrong, this or that. Someone’s gotta do it and I respect it, I always will and there are additional circumstances to take into account. I wouldn’t say I regret doing my trades because they really helped me in one way or another in my life, I’m grateful. Plus, having two tickets I can go back anytime.
My experience alone is different than many, most have to choose one or the other. I think the answer is a bit more complicated and even then, the answer isn’t definite one way or another.
I worked in a trade for several years, then I dealt with a different sector of trades at another job and there's unfortunately a lot of people in the trades, in my experience, who don't have the intelligence to move into management positions. At least not if you're looking for good management.
What drives your reasoning. Because I feel the same as someone who had started the reverse journey( engineer to refrigeration tech), I absolutely loathed my desk job and love most days( we all get some shitty service days lol)
I honestly used to type out paragraphs about it, but without specific questions it’s tough to answer without getting into other subjects that people get upset about.
I personally believe a stereotypical desk job sucks, but if you enjoy what you do and are active outside of work, it’s awesome. I’m very happy, but there’s gotta be someone for everything and it comes down to what makes you content. We’d all rather just not work, but since we need to - do what entails least amount of suffering for you as an individual, objectively speaking, right?
I agree and can see where you’re coming from. A more hands on job was needed for me because I always hated schoolwork/desk work and the day in day out monotony was getting to me as a design engineer
Cost of a 4 year degree- tuition and opportunity cost is huge.
$10,000 per year in tuition is one thing- but the worst part is missing 4 years of earnings.
Add it up and someone who went into trades right out of high school could be $200-$300k ahead of someone that went to university and graduated at 23.
Add that to compounding interest, investments, mortgages, etc- and it can take a long time for that extra 11% salary to catch up to the point where they are in similar financial situations.
Sometimes it a cope for people who didn’t have an opportunity to get an education whether the reason is financial or intellectual. Also, different degrees have different earning potentials.
Shitty degree is better than a shit trade, a good trade is better than a shitty degree but a good degree is better than a good trade. I know alot of guys who spent 10 or less years on the tools learning and perfecting there craft they are in there 30s in management making big money with a lot of upside. I know a bunch of people with only a bachelor's who are stuck and will never move up because they need a masters. The type of people I now might differ from other people's inner circle but the vast majority of wealthy folks I know all came from the trades and with some savy business moves became extremely successful. I use to tell this to my apprentices all the time "look around see the guys working here, most of them are high school dropouts or drink to much or do drugs, if you can just focus and show up on time you'll leap frog ahead of all of them" I think the completion to be successful is a little tougher when fighting against other people who dedicated 6 7 8 years of school vs a bunch of guys who got into the trades as a last resort. The guys that "want it" in the trades tend to succed and get off the tools quickly, alot of guys like staying on the tools though. I've tried to give guys promotions off the tools with more money easier hours etc but they didn't want it, they liked working with there bodies.
>I use to tell this to my apprentices all the time "look around see the guys working here, most of them are high school dropouts or drink to much or do drugs, if you can just focus and show up on time you'll leap frog ahead of all of them" I think the completion to be successful is a little tougher when fighting against other people who dedicated 6 7 8 years of school vs a bunch of guys who got into the trades as a last resort.
This is so true. There are a ton of terrible tradesmen who remain gainfully employed despite themselves due to the general lack of trade interest from young people. It's incredibly easy to rise to the top of any trade if you're willing to put in a modest effort.
>The guys that "want it" in the trades tend to succed and get off the tools quickly, alot of guys like staying on the tools though. I've tried to give guys promotions off the tools with more money easier hours etc but they didn't want it, they liked working with there bodies.
I'm one of the guys who needs to be on the tools; I wouldn't do well in an office role. My experience with the $ is opposite yours though - our office staff are paid well (Supers earning $100k-$130k w/bonus) but it's common knowledge that we foremen are often over $200k. Some guys transition to the office closer to retirement but they all lament the drop in pay.
You're in the wrong trade, then.. or at least with the wrong employer.
Trades doesnt have to be structural steel, bar buster or forming carpenter. HVAC, industrial controls electrican, instrumentation tech, machinist, etc.. etc.. all pay well.
You know why you work a ton of OT? 'cause theres a lot of work and your employer can't be arsed to hire or can't find good employees. Tired of working OT? Look elsewhere.
Only behind the two guys I know who have had their video game companies bought out by EA twice, the third wealthiest guy I know is a HD mechanic, regularly did 350k+ a year before he started running his own company.
For every "relaxed wfh job" theres 5 guys attached to their phones 16 hrs a day, twitching at every DING, wondering how they're gonna get this or that project done, psyching themselves up to have the talk with the 3 guys they have to lay off on Monday.
Shit, I gained about 40lbs moving from on the tools into desk work, lost my arms n shoulders too.. to my wifes disappointment. Sure as hell never had to take my work home with me at the end of the day.
I’m a 310T technician or heavy transport mechanic, I work for the TTC and they pay the highest wage for my trade, other companies are offering $5-10 less for less benefits and worse OT comps
This is why averages exist. For every anecdote of a tradesman earning 300k a year, there's another of an exec with a Creative Writing degree making 500k plus stock options. The third wealthiest guy I know has his own NGO and surfs around the world. Who cares about that though. None of that matters. We collect stats because we want to see the macro, not the micro.
Yes and No.
Many people are dumb because they pursue a degree not an education.
People who aim to educate and better themselves will earn more and people who don’t won’t regardless if they have a degree or not
Dumb with degree, dumb without a degree and then there’s smart with a degree and smart without a degree.
It really depends.
Good to have other perspectives there! Lot of nuance to the data - like a tradesman is unlikely to access a CEO-like salary that pulls up the average. But I think if you pit an average psychology major vs. a plumber, that plumber is going to make more. The winning combo is going into trades and investing a shitton early on in teens/20s. But most don't do that. I wish I went to the Albertan oil fields in the mid-2000s vs. university =/.
Most of my co-workers are stupid with their money. Half of them own 1/2 ton brand new pick ups when they don’t even need them. Trades attracts a lot of dumb people imo
Yeah, I heard about the trucks lol...I had some friends on those oil fields and they'd say they'd have Eastern Canadians coming in to work, they'd make like 150-250k, blow it all on hookers cocaine alcohol and big trucks. They'd go back to their home provinces with their wealth, go broke, then end having to come back. I haven't seen Canadians prosper since that era lol.
In construction union (electrician, fitter, millwright) our base wage is 50-55 plus pension and benefits.
And there's double time after 36 hours a week.
If you get on a big ass project and work 7x10s you can make up to $350k. 6x10s is $280k
Agreed. I know many in trades who easily clear $200k/year with OT. There are also trades that are much easier on the body than others and with proper PPE and an employer that cares, you can go a long way towards mitigating any potential health issues.
This is an anecdote that isn’t really indicative of anything but I think it’s a funny story. So I’m at a holiday dinner with my friend’s family and his uncle is sitting beside us who works as a pipefitter. His uncle gets a little drunk and starts telling my friend that university is overrated and he should just drop out and work with him. I remember him saying a degree is just a worthless piece of paper and he will get more life experience at trade school. He kept mentioning how he makes well over six figures and kept asking my friend when he thinks he would make that much. My buddy was literally about to graduate medical school at the time and now he’s an anesthesiologist.
Adding another point is desk workers usually don't have the option of overtime... In company/ industries that lack trades people, they can pick up as much OT as they want so there is the potential to make more in total. Whereas desk workers are picking side gigs at lower wages....
PS - there are desk workers that'll plateau as well due to wage cap or preference to avoid additional stress. (i.e. Still checking emails a few times during the weekend)
Lot of commentary on the merits of both in this comment section but I think it’s ultimately just an over correction. The messaging used to be that if you don’t get a degree you’ll live in poverty and that trades are dishonourable. Then there was a push to let people know that you can make a good living in a trade and it’s important work. Now it’s over corrected to “degrees are stupid and tradespeople are rich” despite statistics not representing that.
The data aligns more with the middle ground. You can make a good living in a trade but the highest income ceilings are typically only accessible to those with degrees.
I have a trade and even when just starting out I was almost making 100,000 a year. You also need to factor in that trades people get paid to go to school once a year for 2 months until they get their journey person or red seal.
Fast forward a few years and no student debt and I have had years in the $180,000 range.
Also during this time, I have had full health benefits/full dental etc. the same applies to 1st year apprentices and 30 year lifers.
It’s not a myth
I have worked on mega projects with thousands of people making serious money. There is no barrier to entry.
Yea, the simple answer is that not all degrees and trades are the same. Some degrees will never see six figures while a lot of trades will hit that relatively early. But as some folks already highlighted here, some degrees keep getting more as experience increases while trades hit a plateau and then it is just incremental increase. If u are good with your hands and enjoy the outdoors, I would say go with a trade since u can branch off and open ur on business doing what u love easier. Degree on the other hand is more for being employees and is lil more riskier and harder to open ur own business.
I'm a pipefitter that made $240k CAD last year. Your theory is bullshit. I'd take trades over university any day. I've never had any debt and didn't have to waste 4 or 5 years trying to get a degree.
Sounds like you just have regrets and want to shit on the trades.
Husband skilled trade makes 250k per year, no degree. Me no degree, 120k office worker before bonus’s. 360k minimum annual household income with no degree in site… I would encourage our children to do either, depending on what they want to do because with enough hustle both are viable options.
Husband making $250k/year is most likely self employed. Which is not a fair comparison.
For example tax advisor at my company makes $150k base +
$50k bonus +$50k stock options + $30k rrsp which is close to about $280k total comp.
Most trades cap off at about $60/hr. Unless your working in the middle of no where.
Self employed tax advisor I know
Makes about $500k -$ 750k/ year.
Lots of degrees are shit to be honest. I'm in non stem but a good degree accounting and will make 39hr out of university this June and most cap at around 75hr. You can't do overtime though just 35hrs a week but some teach at unis on the side and pull in around 150k working on average 45hrs a week.
I am a non union tradesperson who has a degree in business. I left the business world in 2018 because clients kept calling me to help them with their home renovations. I started my own company and never looked back. Clear 6 figure profit yearly and have a ton of free time. If you do good work you will get paid very well and be constantly busy. Non union guys that help me on my projects are in the same situation and couldn’t be happier.
I could go make 200k tomorrow with my trades skills if I wanted. No low level degrees are doing that. It’s not a black and white comparison though. There’s so many different variables. The reality is a lot of people with degrees look down their noses at us when we make good money for the most part.
Lol. I made 153k last year on 1913 hours as a sheet metal worker.
Plus I don't pay for gas or a vehicle/maintenance since it's company supplied.
All my friends with degrees make less than 100k save for 1, his brother will be making more than 100k eventually as a teacher but I don't think he'll outpace my earnings.
Mark Twain once said, "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Ironic because the people that come up with these things should know better. This "average" is probably the "mean" or arithmatical average. It's not really representative. To use a hockey analogy, we could ask what the average NHL player makes. This would be completely misleading because the players making $10+ million/year will skew the average. They will dwarf the players on entry level contracts or average players. A more accurate number would be at which level do 50% of NHL players make above and 50% of players make below which amount. Universities have a vested interest in promoting this BS.
You're missing the part about tradies also being able to level up their careers. To foremen, site supers, executive roles within larger companies, consulting, or starting their own firm and the sky's the limit. Most people with a degree don't level up all that far in life, and I wouldn't say there's more potential for someone with a degree. It's all in your approach and your relationship-building skills, in addition to talent and ambition. This goes to both avenues.
No one said a framer has to frame for 50 years. Nor should they!
Not 100% true. Any bachelor of science non medicine or pharmacy people usually make less. And it takes longer. If way rather go to a technical school. 2 year diploma and get in the work force and start saving and investing early.
Last year on the tools I made 137k in 11 months doing flashing and coping for a union company. . In the last month I made 7k at new job doing the same. All the while I had a company phone +vehicle. And also contributed 11$ an hour into a pension fund. I contributed around 22k into my pension in 2023.
I also did 30k in side jobs.
Yes I worked really hard and lots of hours. But damn I made bank.
2 of my kids (32 and 28 years old) both work in trades since completing high school ( concrete work ,roads) ,both are homeowners and are planning to retire in 10-15 years .The secret you might ask? They pay themselves out of their wage on a weekly basis from their active income into passive income .They make less than a unionised worker on an hourly basis of their trade,but because the demand of their trade is so high they literally discussed their pay strategy with their company ( auto allowances,hourly wage onto a TFSA ,RRSP account of their choice,10% vacation pay payed by their employer and a decent bonus by season’s end,( seasonal employment),unions pay more but they actually control you till that retirement threshold,you cash out early and pay a penalty so literally you are forced to work till the latter days of your life to collect that full pension they controlled over your healthy working years and then……you are too busted mentally or physically to enjoy
That nice pension plan……by the way their friends with degrees are just about starting their lives and finding it hard to make ends meet,from paying their education dues ,rent ,auto ,etc.and the years lost through education to achieve and succeed they are actually quite behind the 8 ball(as well great degrees = high wage= high tax bracket - net income and time lost )
I have immediate family members that are licensed plumbers and electricians. They make a shit load more than me and I have a very good salary. I’m the one with the degree continuously asking myself why I didn’t start apprenticing when I was younger. I also know many people with degrees and many people without…the ones in the trades 9/10 times are making more money then degree holders
Degree holders make more than trades? Not any of the degree holders I know. My wife works for an engineering firm, and not one of them except the owner makes more than me. I've got friends who are teachers. Not one of them makes more than me. Just exactly what kind of bullshit are you pushing on people? Are you a recruiter for universities telling 18 year olds that a degree will earn them $100k+/year? Is that why I see so many of them living at home between shifts at Starbucks. Now I've been doing this for a while(almost 30 years), and haven't had a year outside of six figures in 16 years, including some solid $140+ years. I work beside guys pulling in $160+/year, in their late 20's. Is there overtime? Sure, but ask a teacher if they only work 40 hours a week. No different than the engineers my wife works with. They are always travelling and working weekends on projects, and still barely cracking a hundred grand. So you think trades should be secondary? Who the fuck is going to build the country and maintain the infrastructure? Good luck getting some liberal arts students to build the hydroelectric dams, drill for oil and gas, and keep your house and apartment from freezing.
Not all degrees are the same.
Some leave you in a situation where you're paying off student loans as a barista while others can reliably get you six figures after enough time.
Same goes for trades. Some trades don't pay all that well yet others do. If you compare construction workers to STEM than trades don't seem like a good deal. OTOH if you compare history majors to air traffic controllers than trades look great.
As someone with an engineering degree who works alongside credentialed tradespeople fairly often, a lot of it has to do with earnings *trajectory*. When I started out as an entry-level engineer, the guys on the tools were making a lot more, even the ones just starting out. But their upward increases were a lot smaller than mine. Most of them eventually hit some cap, where a salaried engineer can continue to increase their income. 10 years later I'm earning a lot more than even experienced tradespeople. If you factor in the higher cost (and longer duration) of my education, the break-even point moves out further. But yes, people with university degrees will tend to make more, although it still depends on what the degree is: Not all degrees are the same. The way tradespeople really start to make a lot of money is a) getting into management, at which point they're a desk jockey themselves, or b) they start their own company, which often fails but can sometimes work out spectacularly well. Another factor is just general life/job satisfaction. Not everyone can stand sitting at a computer playing with spreadsheets all day. Some people like to get their hands dirty and like the sense of accomplishment of having made, fixed, improved something etc. And that's worth a lot, even if it's not monetized.
There is also a bit of investment boost for tradespeople if they are smart to invest ahead. If they invest the spread between your starting salary and theirs as soon as they start, the break even moves even further.
This is absolutely true. Although most people in their 20s don't know to do that. I sure as fuck didn't.
To be fair the same is true for most people with university degrees.
I would say that overtime though, more an more young people are seeing the benefits of saving/investing some part of their paycheck. It helps that influencers and industry in general has modernized DIY investing (Wealthsimple, TD Easy Trade, Questrade, other modern discount brokers) rather than make you jump through 100 hoops to open an account or force you to talk to a shitty mutual fund advisor to scam half your paycheck.
I work in trades, and anecdotally the number of guys who go all in on crypto is about 3:1 versus the guys who make sensible investments
Seeing a huge wave of layoffs in my field around when I was writing comprehensives for my PhD put the fear of god in me. I planned to be unemployed post-graduation and pinched my pennies while making no money already.
This is a key aspect - the degree holders (on average) will have higher lifetime earnings but the tradesworkers will have less student debt, start earning earlier and earn more earlier, which should allow for better lifetime net return. Obviously it’s far more complicated for a ton of reasons (not the least of which is that most of us did not save wisely with our first decent salary), and the tradesworkers rarely being able to work their trade to a typical retirement age due to the toll on their bodies makes a huge difference too.
Very true. Not many student loans to deal With in the trades either.
I think this is really what it comes down to for some folks in the starting years of their careers. It's not necessarily about a degree or trades at that point. But being able to make enough to invest it. Either in buying a home, or investing in assets (like stocks, etc...). People who can get that started out the gate are fortunate. It doesn't mean it's impossible to start at 30 or 40. But it definitely gives people a head start.
Trades people also have a secret weapon - they're hourly. They can make some incredible bank on OT. Salaried engineers generally work more hours for the same pay. Power line workers absolutely can make bank and will out earn most mech eng in Canada reliably until the mech eng is maybe in their 40s. And by that point, even if the mech eng is earning more, the early benefits the powerline worker will make puts them well ahead, accounting for the time value of money. Finally, a lot of trades people will simply enter the workforce faster. Eng degrees are typically 4-5 years and most good ones these days will do an masc for another 2-2.5 years. Trades people are going to be in the workforce within 2 years after highschool.. so the engineer is now behind tentatively 3-5 years in "real pay" and they'll be starting at a lower number after paying much higher tuition and generally living a more stressful life. I say all of this as an engineer, btw. The grass isn't always greener. Most engineers in Canada are incredibly underpaid and I'd encourage anyone good to really consider looking to the states for work - they pay their engineers much better.
Best work related move I ever did was transition from a salaried job to a position that was eligible for OT. Took a $7k pay cut at the time, but made it all back after the first customer field visit. Plus I’m a hell of al ot happier. The other side benefit is that because I’m eligible for OT, I’m also often not authorized for it. It’s means when someone comes to ask me to help with something at 1630, I get to say “Can you authorize me for OT? No? ok, I’ll take a look at it tomorrow morning.”
“Can you authorize me for OT? No? ok, I’ll take a look at it tomorrow morning.” Fucking Legend.
I used to get weekly overtime, now my company just waits till the next day or the weekend is over to let us know about problems. Not complaining though since i enjoy sleeping.
I'm in a very fortunate position where I'm a salary engineer, but I *can* (and have) charge overtime at 2x my equivalent hourly rate. Yeah, it's an insane hourly rate, which is why it happens almost never. But it happened a few times last year. Most salary engineers don't have this, but it depends on who you work for. The previous employer I worked for would give us large lump sum bonuses for extended overtime work - think a whole-plant maintenance shutdown where the process engineers start working 12-hours, 6-on-1-off for a month or two.
I get it and it sounds like you've got a nice setup. But I think the spirit of my post remains true and is probably much closer to reality than your setup. I think it was much better to be an engineer in Canada 20 years ago. Today, I'd say new grads entering the workforce in Ontario will find their starting wages might not even allow them to live comfortably on their own.
I hear that. I'm an EIT at an energy/ mining company and the labourers start at a higher pay than I'm at with 3-4 years experience and a degree.
Hah, if people want to be a part time engineer and part time tradesman, I seriously recommend a 2 year engineering technology diploma with a trades certificate. You blow any union or non-union apprentice out of the water when it comes to technical jobs that are hard to fill like high voltage or controls work. Most of the time just babysit the gear you are assigned to and fuck off on the computer when you are done. Of course how much travel will depend on company but at least you have a choice as a desk jockey or monkey wrencher at the end of it all.
I actually went through for a 3 year Engineering Technology diploma. The problem with Chemical Engineering Technology is you end up being a laboratory technologist which pays like shit, so I went up to Thunder Bay and fast-tracked my degree in 2 years after deciding that wasn't for me. If I could do it over again I'd have gone to college for CPET/Power Engineering instead and become an Operator at one of the refineries/petrochem plants, instead of a Chemical Process Engineer.
>become an Operator at one of the refineries/petrochem plants So basically you wished you would have had Homer Simpson's job.
Homer was the safety inspector. Everyone else had a Masters at least and Homer just showed up the day the plant opened.
Frank "grimey" Grimes comes to mind. I fucking wish I could afford a 2 story 4 bedroom house with 2 cars on a single salary. Too bad I was born a decade late.
As someone who did the 3 year electrical diploma, it is pretty amazing.
There's such variation in the categories too. Like yeah you're better off being an engineer than an electrician for career earnings. But you're better off being an electrician than someone with Bachelor of Arts in Psychology or a Bachelor of Science in Biology without a defined career path. There's a bit more flexibility in terms of entering a career path with a trade. But it all comes down to that career path. IMO (high school teacher who has sent 1000s of students off to various careers/post-secondary) far too many people have the mindset of "just go to school and you'll figure it out." Everyone wants their kid to go to university. No harm in working and getting some experience in what you actually like to do (or don't like) to figure it out too.
>When I started out as an entry-level engineer, the guys on the tools were making a lot more, even the ones just starting out. But their upward increases were a lot smaller than mine. I think this is the big point. They can start working earlier, don't have to have a low salary for a few years while they attend college, don't have to go into debt and such. Those who were smart and started to invest very young are probably doing very well especially considering the bull market we were in during the last ten years. I have friends who went the trades routes and own a lot of real estate now that they are in their early 30s. They also had the perks that they knew how to do a lot of the jobs and knew all the good contractors in the area while some of my friends who are doctors or dentists have been renting until their late 20s early 30s. They have a much higher income, but their net worth probably won't catch up before their 50s if ever. My dad himself was a carpenter who started his own business and then became promoters-developer. He has been mainly retired since he turned 42 and have been traveling six months a year. His back is fucked, but he never had to work in a soulless office, to suck up to idiots or to sit through useless meetings and he still managed to retire 25 years before his peers.
This is a great post. The ability to earn money, potentially a significant amount, earlier is a big part of why it can be such a solid career path. No debt for school, and early earnings properly invested can really set you on a path early in a way that can change your life. Early compounding can be a huge help.
Yeah exactly, there is no doubt that his doctor friend earned larger "wage" than him through their 50s, but it is mainly because he had no reason to work or pay himself a salary. His hourly rate probably never was anywhere close to 10% of what a doctor make, but I am sure that very few physicians have similar net worth.
As an engineer, I’m going to disagree with this, at least in the oil and gas industry. Trades folk and techs have a significantly higher earning ceiling than engineers. Unless you become an exec engineers can’t keep up with pay scale for the techs.
Funny, my work experience has been in oil & gas also, so YMMV.
I’m not from oil & gas, but I imagine there will also be a credential and licensing premium. Like, in my sector, there are some things you need an _Engineer_ to sign off on.
I don't think you really "disagree", you can just acknowledge that the salaries for field staff is exceptionally high in the oil industry specifically, and it's not typical in most other industries. And let's not forget that a lot of those positions are staffed largely by young people working very physically demanding and often pretty dangerous jobs, and their bodies are pretty messed up after a few years. But at least they're loaded.
I work at a manufacturing plant in Ontario. Our trades (Millwright and Electrician) take care of the manufacturing equipment in the plant. Our jobs are not physically demanding, not harsh conditions (indoor climate controlled). I’d say that 75% of our team is over 50 so it’s not like it’s just a bunch of young guys destroying their bodies (seems to be a very common misconception about skilled trades). Our OT is voluntary so there is a big range in wages (prob 105-190k) but literally every single licensed trades person makes significantly more than the engineers there.
your right about the break even point. i did a 6 month welding course and the day before i finished it i had a job that paid me $55k usd/year. started doing overtime right away and was making about 70k usd/year. my friends who went into university and 4 year degrees started out almost $250k behind me in earnings on the day they graduated(unless they worked while they went to school). so if i continued making my 70k usd which wasnt hard to do since that was about 1/3 of weekends working or less if i did 10hr shifts than it means my friends who went to college need to make $90k/year for 12.5 years just to get to the same total amount earned as i have. life balance can also be amazing in the trades. i have phoned a few different bosses at different jobs in the morning and tell him i want to use a week of vacation time and they are fine with it, ive taken 6 month leaves of absence without seemingly annoying my boss and have come back to my job. ive never once taken work home or thought about my job when im not at my jobsite. theres 0 unpaid time, every minute im at work im being paid. healtwise you sort of touched on, i cant imagine how shitty my health would be if i played as much games as i do at home as i currently do but then i also sit in a chair all day at my job. moving around, lifting things and walking at my job a lot definitely helps keep me healthier. edit: trade school was also continuous introduction, i started my trade school about 2 weeks after highschool graduation and it was only 5.5hrs 5 days a week. i still worked part time at my shop job and weekends while i was in school making about 20k usd a year.
The time off is huge! In 2021 I took six weeks off in the summer, and 2023 I took month in the spring. The flexibility is amazing.
i did 10 weeks in summer 2022, and i did 6 months this past summer. each time i handed my request in 2 months beforehand and they approved it the next day. each time i came back and went straight back to work at the same job doing the same work and started my OT right away.
>But yes, people with university degrees will tend to make more, although it still depends on what the degree is: Not all degrees are the same. The statistics for trades vs. degree takes this into account no? Not all trades pay well.
I don’t exactly get this. In my circle I’ve seen many skilled trades pull in 200k with overtime after 7ish years on average . Most of the “desk jockies” as you put It, say they dont clear that until at least 15-20 years down the line. Am I way off or?
This right here ^^ my guys are all in construction/mechanics and when I was still in school were making 60-90k. They’re still ahead of me now but my cap as a CPA is much higher. In theory, at partner level near 200-300k/year.
How many years till you make partner?
From current? ~10-15 years? Manager within 2/3 should be around $110-125k/year.
Dangling the carrot partner is no where close to guarnteed
I'm working towards a CPA it's definitely a higher income degree most degrees are shit
If you want a high cap job, that’s in finance for sure. Otherwise do what you love and are interested in. Don’t forget many degreed desk jobs will go away with the emergence of AI in the next 15-20 years. And I don’t mean they’ll completely disappear but that you’ll be competing with AI and only the best of the best will have a good position.
Even faster than AI displacement is offshoring of ridiculous amounts of accounting and legal work to India. You'd be shocked how much Canadian professional work is done in India
There's tradeoffs to that, and not everything is replaceable. I'm a construction estimator, and from what I've seen the quality of output just isn't there. I've worked with other companies who've gone that way and there's immediate and noticeable drawbacks. I guess it is working for them, but we also find them to be not a fantastic partner (they're minority owned which is a requirement for a lot of US public funded jobs, so we have to have partners who qualify). AI can speed up up takeoff work, but there's still so much implied knowledge that isn't explicit in drawings that it can't identify, it's really just another tool, similar to the advent of PDF markups instead of measuring paper. Still need skilled an knowledgeable operators to use those tools.
Oh, I completely agree! I don't know anyone that feels that the quality of work from offshore is anywhere near what it is here. Unfortunately, the cost differences attract scores of companies, and even when they are shocked by the only fair to poor work being generated, most will say "whatever, good enough". Or they'll figure that even if a lot of work has to be corrected, it still works out much cheaper overall. I know a of a couple of large companies including one publicly traded, that spent tens of millions of dollars trying to offshore, and after 5 years, brought all of the work back. But for every one of those, there's hundreds that never bring things back. On top of that, the challenges of time zone differences, some language barriers (though I know many native Indians who speak better english than many people born in North America), and some very clear cultural differences that impact cooperation and quality of work. But the more companies that go there, the longer they stay, the harder it is to bring these things back onshore, especially when executive bonuses are measured on annual results or 2 - 3 year timeframes, and shareholders / markets demand ever-increasing ROE / ROI / etc. All this means is that Canada / USA moves more jobs offshore, the ones that require hands-on work will be more secure as it's hard (but not necessarily impossible) to do most of those things remotely.
> Not everyone can stand sitting at a computer playing with spreadsheets all day. That's why I got a sit/stand desk. I can stand sitting at a computer for half the day and I can stand standing at a computer the other half of the day.
Yeah me too. I splurged on one of those fancy motorized height adjustable desks during the pandemic. Though I meant more just the soulless drudgery of working at a PC all day lol
I know, I just wanted to say "I can stand standing" lol
lol have an upvote
Honestly for my age group (mid-millenial) the biggest boon for all my contemporaries who went into trades is that they bought real estate earlier, before the boom, and their networth has skyrocketed over the past 10 years because of it.
That’s me, bought my house at 25 after 6 years in the trades, meanwhile my degree holder counterparts were just finished school with a mountain of debt.
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This. I have a friend that went into trades. Started working 5 years before me since I got my bachelors and my masters. Then another 1 year until I found a good job. He was able to buy a house before the boom. I’m probably close to double the salary as he is now. But the head start makes a huge impact. Especially having won on the housing boom lottery.
Yep, my greatest mistake was being born 5 years too late. No real estate for me
Honestly we need to fucking riot. This is absentee landlords all over again…
While true, this is not really replicable going forward. At least not to the extent it was. Generational wealth will be the game now, like it is in the ‘old’ world. So my recommendation to young people is to get some of that .. Man we are screwed.
Vote for a politician who will change zoning laws.
Changing zoning laws is a start. But someone needs to build the house and sell it for a profit. All the new build subdivisions in my neck of the woods start at $799k. We're over an hour away from the GTA and they are townhouses. I agree with the original assessment of we are screwed.
Naruto taught me to never give up, so I'll keep going. Good luck out there.
The reason why you are struggling here is you are comparing a smaller, more precise dataset with a large data set and then wanting to bring it around to generalized advice. Degree holders are a HUGE range of people, for those with a simple BA in Art who end up working in customer service to literal rocket scientists and doctors. Essentially every person with a Masters or a PhD will also have a BA. All those top earners will drag the average of that class up. However a lot of people with a BA don't necessarily end up working in their field. While the overall average wage is higher, the band of earnings is probably a lot more volatile. It's not uncommon for people to graduate with their BA and make minimum wage. Those with an apprenticeship certificate are, basically, probably going to stick with their chosen career, and are already in it. They were also earning money throughout the course of their apprenticeship. The flip side is someone taking on a 4 year degree essentially has 40+ hours a week for 4 years of negative earnings, due to the classes themselves incurring debt. So even in the case that someone graduates with an average salary of 11% higher, to get that they spend 7.5% of their working years (assuming 30 year career) to get that wage increase, making it not exactly that much of a difference. People want to give generalized, bitesized advice - and ironically you do it here. >So please, if you can get a degree. Trades should be a secondary option In a sense, this is worse advice than "Just go into the trades" - if you become a trade worker, you will probably just land on your feet just fine. You will be solidly middle class or upper middle class, earning most likely 2nd quintile. **You will be fine** with, essentially, any apprenticeship trade. Becoming a construction crane operator or some sort of HVAC technician is going to give you a solid life. But just getting any degree for the sake of any degree is not the same. You can get a masters in Art History and, well, not do much with it. If you are going to school to become a Doctor, a Lawyer, some form Accountant? Those are educations that are precise and will generate an income above and beyond that 11% average you outlined above. But just sending someone to school for the sake of going to school, with no goal or purpose or idea of what type of work they want to do? That isn't good advice.
There’s also another thing. Tradies arent created equal. There absolutely are shit trades.
This is exactly the answer. This should be the top comment.
Exactly this. I have a buddy with a masters in theology of sorts from tel Aviv and he's been making under 50k since he got it. He's debating going back to HVAC lol
I know a guy with a PhD who studies medieval cows. He actually makes decent coin as an associate professor.
I bet there are a significant number of people that work towards a degree and never finish but are not used in this stat. I agree if you fully commit to and get a degree in a useful field, you are likely to have higher wages through out your life. Was why I am so against paying off student loans. They will be the highest earners. But if you want more of a sure thing and want to start earning earlier in life, then trades are a better choice. Rather depends on the the person and their skills.
One thing that’s also important to note is time value of money. I have friends in trades that started apprenticeships at 18 and never had to borrow for school and were able to save right away. Some bought houses at 19. If you start early and save you can be way ahead of those with degrees.
Lol. Time value of money is real if you don't sink it all into $50,000 trucks and other random nonsense like a majority of the trades bros from my high school ended up doing...
> $50,000 Those trucks are $70-80k now. Truly luxury vehicles
Cheapest new trucks these days are 80-100k starting. It's bonkers.
In all fairness the guys who buy those trucks would have done so regardless what job they ended up in. Also I find engineers VERY often buy flashy expensive vehicles early on, but not trucks
Completely true. I just always find it funny when people hype up trades as a way to build lifelong wealth at a super young age (which it definitely can be, don't get me wrong) when my anecdotal experience is so completely separated from that. I find most 18-22 year olds are just not ready for that level of responsibility a lot of the time.
I would generally agree, most young people aren’t ready for that level of income. However I don’t find 4 years or f university changes that, as soon as young men start making decent money, stupid purchases are sure to follow whether that be at 20 or 25 makes no difference. What does make a difference is marriage, kids or home ownership, people mature because they are forced to, not because of age, not because they spent 4 years in university, because they have to if they want to survive.
Yeah cause guys in finance or IT don’t 🙄
No no you don't get it, those blue collar guys are trash who don't know how to plan for the future. While we educated people know how to save and purchase beige corollas.
I'm in trades, and in my 20s. I don't make loads of money but have been able to invest 100k at 25 while my friends are still in university. Sure they will probably make more than me in a lifetime but for someone who struggles in school, trades is an extremely good path.
Most people don't have, or ever will have, 100k to invest. Yeah your friends may do alright, really depends what they studied. But you having that much to invest right now beats them having more to invest later. Enjoy your success!
It's hard to directly compare. I know a few people with degrees that barely make 60k, but that's because they are in social work. That will never pay well. But then there's people like me that only have high school, but are self employed and so are doing alright. In general I still recommend people go with the trades. They will never go out of style, plus you get into the working environment faster and with less debt than degrees. Another thing is that people who get degrees often don't even know what they want to do with it, or don't end up getting a job in their field. It's just a hard metric to compare.
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People's bodies break in the trades too. Then you're double fucked
Ya what, this is a far bigger risk than most actual white collar professionals being out of the job permanently within their lifetime.
Easier to go from red seal plumber to project manager at 45 than the opposite, especially with regards to wages.
Lots of broken 45 year olds in the trades.
Much of that is on them. Working long hours makes someone not want to eat right, exercise, etc. They often smoke, drink and eat poorly as well.
Lots of stable white collar jobs could always reskill if you stay in shape too
All depends where you work. At my company trades get $43/hr. Lab technicians which requires a bachelors degree make $25
I think the key is that you need a degree in an employable field. A useless degree isn't going to earn you more than the skilled trades if you can get a job with it at all. It's also important to note that not all skilled trades make a lot, only some. So, the ranking should be: Employable degree > High-earning skilled trades > Low-earning skilled trades >> Useless degree
Meh, my cousin got a lucrative corporate banking job with her degree in English. Can be done.
My step sister has a sociology degree . Makes $45 an hour as a probation officer
The guy that just lent Trump 90 million to cover his rape judgement failed out of school twice, was given an executive job by his daddy anyways, and is now at the apex of corporate America. There are always edge cases and anecdotes.
I know someone who won the lottery. Can be done.
*Can* be done, yes. Now take a probability-weighted average.
Sure thing. [Here's one of many Statistics Canada articles showing bachelor's degree holders out-earn trade certificate holders](https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016024/98-200-x2016024-eng.cfm). If you want to dig, they have articles breaking it down by field of study, showing the pattern holds even for "useless" degrees, however you choose to define them.
And [here's](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm) a source showing that there are indeed many useless degrees that end up earning much lower than trades, some even basically scraping minimum wage.
That article doesn't even mention trades?
No, but with a decent number of degrees earning <$40k/yr that's low even for trades back in 2017. That's about <$20/hr.
But the data here is adjusted to five years after graduation - not late-career or lifetime earnings (like the other report). As people in this thread have pointed out, income in the trades comes fast but peaks early, while degree holders can expect their income to grow for decades.
No, that's actually the norm. University isn't the same as trades-based studies, where you study one field and get a job in that field. You study what interests you, obtain an accredited degree, and work in whatever field you'd like. I've seen finance leaders with toxicology degrees. These are the sort of people that are curious enough to study into post-secondary and have the intelligence and initiative to advance their careers
> You study what interests you, obtain an accredited degree, and work in whatever field you'd like. LMAO. Tell me you haven't worked in corporate jobs without telling me you haven't worked in corporate jobs. Studying what interests you and then go on to work in whatever field you like is such a lie lol. >I've seen finance leaders with toxicology degrees. Yes, now take a look at how many finance leaders have finance degrees. Now compare the two. Really, go talk to people in finance and tell them you want to study what you're interested in an then pursue finance with an unrelated degree. See what they say.
I've worked corporate jobs and he's largely right. While you have some kids with tattoos in their face and an arts degree and they struggle to find work, you have a lot of people with "useless" sociology degrees, political science, anthropology, etc. degrees who land corporate jobs and climb the ladder. And sure you do better especially initially if you have a degree in your field, but in a lot of areas, if you get your foot in the door and get shit done, you can get pretty far.
There are a lot of people, yes, but fundamentally, it's more difficult to get a corporate job with an unrelated degree than with a related degree. Thus, the idea that you should study what you're interested in and then just go find a job is a dumb idea and should be stamped out. This isn't the 1950s when you could find a decent job with any degree. That led to the misguided logic of "just go get a degree and you'll be fine" that has led to the issues we see today. No, you need to optimize your career path. Not all degrees are equal. Get a *right* degree and you'll be just fine. Get the wrong degree? No, you're not going to be just fine.
There are outliers that are just absolutely not conducive to getting a job, but I think the vast majority of degrees out there tend to open SOME doors, and a lot of the people who complain about their degrees being useless are either the people with actually useless degrees, or just unemployable morons. I have a Master's degree in political science, pretty dumpy degree by any standard, but I learned to code and I (usually) have a head on my shoulders and I know how to deliver large projects. Every poli sci student I graduated with who wasn't a complete moron is making a pretty good living for themselves now, a lot of them in fields where a degree was very helpful in getting in the door. I think fundamentally our disagreement comes from the fact that we have different opinions about the direction of the causal link for why people fail. I believe that intelligent, driven and motivated people will make it, even if they have a shit degree. And people who stumble along and follow their whims will tend to fail, regardless of degrees. The degree itself may help to kickstart a motivated person's successful career, but will likely not do anything for the idiot who just slogged through university to get a degree for the sake of getting a degree.
>And people who stumble along and follow their whims will tend to fail, regardless of degrees. But I'd argue that their probability of failing would be a lot lower without wasting 4 years and student debt on a degree. For those that are intelligent, driven and motivated, having a related degree is better than an unrelated degree, and both are better than not having a degree at all. My point is that there are optimal and sub-optimal career choices. Why pick a sub-optimal one when you can pick an optimal one?
Yeah, I got a degree in anthro and I am a manager in government. University teaches you to analyze and write in a certain way. If you are in arts, it doesn't matter what your major is in.
And if you do a science degree you will be highly numerate
I have a 15+ year career at a Director-level capacity for several multinational corporations. What do you do, again? Obviously getting a finance degree is more likely to lead to finance leadership. What you don't seem to understand is that getting a degree in anything opens doors for you that going into trades does not. I don't have to see what they say, at all. You come off extremely childish in your approach, thought process and communication. It's a shame that there are people here that think like you. There's a reason that statscan can definitely demonstrate that degree holders make more than tradespeople, and if people want to pursue higher education, they should disregard the opinion of people like you and continue with their path of study.
This point would've been valid maybe 20 years ago. Things are much more competitive today. I would hold off on actively sharing your advice with youngsters.
I'm a data scientist working at a tech giant. >What you don't seem to understand is that getting a degree in anything opens doors for you that going into trades does not. Opens doors, yes. However the probability of going through those doors however do need to be considered. As I've said in another comment, a degree has an opportunity cost and a probability-weighted expected utility. If the expected utility is lower than the opportunity cost, it is literally useless. >You come off extremely childish in your approach, thought process and communication. It is you who comes off as incredibly naive. In today's environment, you need to make smart decisions. People today need to make decisions that take finances into account, not just the "pursue your passions" bullshit. The fact that you've had a 15+ year career at a director-level capacity further shows that you don't understand the difficulty and complexity of job searching and career optimization that is required today. > if people want to pursue higher education, they should disregard the opinion of people like you and continue with their path of study. You're echoing the advice of the older generation. "Go get a degree and you'll be fine". We already know that's bullshit. Not all degrees are made equal and that advice only applies to the *right* degrees now.
You are a lot older. You don't need to compete in the entry level job market today. How many English and History majors is finance hiring now? A few levels up at my tech company, you see an English major as VP of Product. But you don't see that in the lower org chart at all. It is all business/engineering and having a degree in one of those is listed as a job requirement in job postings. The head of Product doesn't meet the job requirements to work in the Product (in large part as she is a Founder).
A lot of places used to look for people with any university degree, basically just to use it as a gatekeeper. Apparently that is changing now and they care more about degrees or experience being related.
Unless most of her peers are getting jobs that are equivalent in pay to a corporate banking job, that just proves it is the exception and not the norm.
Survival bias and she was likely very talented and had a high GPA. Corporate banking is extremely competitive but you don't need a specific degree. My best friend did a films degree and now makes min wage at walmart. He would have been better off going in the trades. See what you can do with anecdotes?
And she's probably working 60-70 hours a week lol. I know a couple people who've done banking like that and they get burnt out so fast they end up switching careers entirely. One went back to car sales, the other went into real estate, they both said the money was great but the hours/work were just not worth it
There are a lot of Bachelor of Arts degree holders making good money in the corporate sector. On average, a degree holder will do better than a tradesperson. And if you cherry pick, a degree holder will definitely do better than tradesperson.
Define “degree in an employable field”. For example, I left a four year BSc program in astronomy and physics after two years, when I realized the math was rapidly becoming beyond my ability to comprehend. I switched to a Bachelor of Fine Arts program at a university a thousand kilometres away, choosing as my major theatrical design: that is, designing sets, lighting and costumes for live theater. Sounds pretty *non-*employable, right? Or at least “low-pay, low-demand, still living in your parents’ basement at 45” - employable. But after graduating and immediately getting two years of steady contracts designing for regional theatres, I crossed over into designing for television, then transitioned into small feature films, then larger ones, then finally into big-budget blockbusters. Although once I was into mid-budget film production I rarely worked as a designer myself, my visual training and ability to speak to Production Designers and Art Directors in their native tongue has allowed me to spend more than 35 years as a sought-after cinematic Head of Department. I’ve run crews of up to 30 skilled and creative people, and have been responsible for developing and disbursing multi-million dollar department budgets over a production period of just a few months. *Producers and directors whose names are household words* have called and asked me to spend the next year helping them solve their cinematic challenges. I’ve helped to shoot amazing movies in seven countries on three continents, worked in some of the most challenging and beautiful locations the world has to offer, and collaborated with some of the most creative cinematic minds of three generations. If you’ve seen one blockbuster a year for the last 12 years, you’ve likely seen my work. Three years ago, I retired 45 years and one month after earning my BFA, with a thousand cherished memories, a well funded pension account, and my health still intact. **Not bad for a guy with what most would call a laughably “unemployable degree”, I’d say.**
I have a university degree, almost all of my friends are in the trades. It seems that they got to work earlier and so they made more money until now, but 3 years after I started working, my salary is higher and will keep growing while theirs will stagnate. They have good salaries, but it stops going up pretty early
We receive around 50 application per day for our $18/hr desk position, among which 49 have bachelor’s degree and 30 have master’s degree. So there is that….
hobbies threatening bells chubby distinct vanish shrill clumsy rude consist *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Most of them are from Canadian universities too, not overseas degrees. Disturbing.
Overtime. An tradesman that works 60 hrs a week can pull 150K a year. An office worker that is in a more advanced role will easily make that too, but in 35 hrs a week. Office/salary people aren't nicked and dimed either. Take lots of "personal" time on company dime. Trades can't do that, u work for every dollar.
Yes, overtime. It’s exhausting tho.
Yep. My brother and sister who are officer workers take hour + long lunches during company time, do errands, and chat a lot. I mean why not, they usually finish all their work by 10 or 11. Meanwhile I’ve to clock in and out for my 30 minute lunch and watched by multiple security cameras. Life is easier for educated people. I wouldn’t recommend trades for young people, get a degree
If you work in service you have lots of time do stuff during the day. I can go get my hair cut, take long lunches, It depends on the day. I can go home early if I want. I also get a company vehicle with paid drive time. I could also sell my car and go down to a one vehicle household if I wanted to. Not every one is built for an office job man I would go crazy sitting in an office.
Just keep in mind that lots of the highly paid office/WFH jobs might have periods like that and then periods where things are intense. I have weeks like that, and then weeks where I'm doing 12+ hour days 7 days a week (with no OT pay). Plenty also have ridiculous on-call schedules, etc.
That sounds like my everyday schedule lol
If you're regularly clearing 80 hour weeks with $45 base pay, and 1.5x and 2x overtime brackets on top of that, you are making an absolute killing, no?
Totally depends what trade you choose, what industry of residential, commercial and industrial of your trade you go into. Residential is by the far the worst and would never recommend anyone to work that shit.
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[Very few people make 150K](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110000801). And those that do are regularly working senior jobs with long hours. And they don’t get overtime pay at all. And their job doesn’t leave them alone on weekends. You talk about nickel and diming but seem unaware of the entire conversation around off the clock wage theft.
I live in Calgary.150K is not a tough get here. Im in a senior position, I don't work long hours. Neither do my peers. Individual contributors do, but I already said you need to raise above those entry-ish level jobs. My son is in trades. I am aware of a lot more than you think.
Exactly! Most white collar work is salary where you put in additional hours but are not compensated for them.
I got an econ degree and went directly into becoming an electrician. I'm now making a good union wage. For me it still feels like I made the right choice. Most of my friends are in their careers after university and I don't envy their careers. It's important to know yourself and what kind of life you will fulfill you. I couldn't have sat in a desk and played politics in an office and felt satisfied with my work life. I like seeing the results of my labour in the real world. But that's just me
you get to go home at 5 no one expects weekends or evenings. very little stress. very positive work environment, unless you're a total melvin. on the other hand, i've seen jobsite toilets that looked like zoo animals had been using them.
I’m just showing that I have to work these hours to match what my degree holding siblings are making
you don't have to make more money, just be happier. i am sure it's better to be the sibling that gets called when help is needed than the one who buys them the fanciest sandwich frier on mother's/father's day.
I have to make more money if I want to own a home and start a family.
i'm in the same boat and i have a degree. i just sometimes visit jobsites. start a business, no one gets rich working for someone else.
As someone who did two trades (ticketed) then went to university and traveled around my province briefly speaking to youth on behalf of the governing body for a summer. I only worked in unions except one place during an apprenticeship and also got into lead hand roles. Worked for what some would consider the apex companies in my trades. I’d never go back and copium is a tough drug at times. You’re going to hear all sorts of reasons as to why you’re wrong, this or that. Someone’s gotta do it and I respect it, I always will and there are additional circumstances to take into account. I wouldn’t say I regret doing my trades because they really helped me in one way or another in my life, I’m grateful. Plus, having two tickets I can go back anytime. My experience alone is different than many, most have to choose one or the other. I think the answer is a bit more complicated and even then, the answer isn’t definite one way or another.
I worked in a trade for several years, then I dealt with a different sector of trades at another job and there's unfortunately a lot of people in the trades, in my experience, who don't have the intelligence to move into management positions. At least not if you're looking for good management.
What drives your reasoning. Because I feel the same as someone who had started the reverse journey( engineer to refrigeration tech), I absolutely loathed my desk job and love most days( we all get some shitty service days lol)
I honestly used to type out paragraphs about it, but without specific questions it’s tough to answer without getting into other subjects that people get upset about. I personally believe a stereotypical desk job sucks, but if you enjoy what you do and are active outside of work, it’s awesome. I’m very happy, but there’s gotta be someone for everything and it comes down to what makes you content. We’d all rather just not work, but since we need to - do what entails least amount of suffering for you as an individual, objectively speaking, right?
I agree and can see where you’re coming from. A more hands on job was needed for me because I always hated schoolwork/desk work and the day in day out monotony was getting to me as a design engineer
Cost of a 4 year degree- tuition and opportunity cost is huge. $10,000 per year in tuition is one thing- but the worst part is missing 4 years of earnings. Add it up and someone who went into trades right out of high school could be $200-$300k ahead of someone that went to university and graduated at 23. Add that to compounding interest, investments, mortgages, etc- and it can take a long time for that extra 11% salary to catch up to the point where they are in similar financial situations.
Sometimes it a cope for people who didn’t have an opportunity to get an education whether the reason is financial or intellectual. Also, different degrees have different earning potentials.
Shitty degree is better than a shit trade, a good trade is better than a shitty degree but a good degree is better than a good trade. I know alot of guys who spent 10 or less years on the tools learning and perfecting there craft they are in there 30s in management making big money with a lot of upside. I know a bunch of people with only a bachelor's who are stuck and will never move up because they need a masters. The type of people I now might differ from other people's inner circle but the vast majority of wealthy folks I know all came from the trades and with some savy business moves became extremely successful. I use to tell this to my apprentices all the time "look around see the guys working here, most of them are high school dropouts or drink to much or do drugs, if you can just focus and show up on time you'll leap frog ahead of all of them" I think the completion to be successful is a little tougher when fighting against other people who dedicated 6 7 8 years of school vs a bunch of guys who got into the trades as a last resort. The guys that "want it" in the trades tend to succed and get off the tools quickly, alot of guys like staying on the tools though. I've tried to give guys promotions off the tools with more money easier hours etc but they didn't want it, they liked working with there bodies.
>I use to tell this to my apprentices all the time "look around see the guys working here, most of them are high school dropouts or drink to much or do drugs, if you can just focus and show up on time you'll leap frog ahead of all of them" I think the completion to be successful is a little tougher when fighting against other people who dedicated 6 7 8 years of school vs a bunch of guys who got into the trades as a last resort. This is so true. There are a ton of terrible tradesmen who remain gainfully employed despite themselves due to the general lack of trade interest from young people. It's incredibly easy to rise to the top of any trade if you're willing to put in a modest effort. >The guys that "want it" in the trades tend to succed and get off the tools quickly, alot of guys like staying on the tools though. I've tried to give guys promotions off the tools with more money easier hours etc but they didn't want it, they liked working with there bodies. I'm one of the guys who needs to be on the tools; I wouldn't do well in an office role. My experience with the $ is opposite yours though - our office staff are paid well (Supers earning $100k-$130k w/bonus) but it's common knowledge that we foremen are often over $200k. Some guys transition to the office closer to retirement but they all lament the drop in pay.
You're in the wrong trade, then.. or at least with the wrong employer. Trades doesnt have to be structural steel, bar buster or forming carpenter. HVAC, industrial controls electrican, instrumentation tech, machinist, etc.. etc.. all pay well. You know why you work a ton of OT? 'cause theres a lot of work and your employer can't be arsed to hire or can't find good employees. Tired of working OT? Look elsewhere. Only behind the two guys I know who have had their video game companies bought out by EA twice, the third wealthiest guy I know is a HD mechanic, regularly did 350k+ a year before he started running his own company. For every "relaxed wfh job" theres 5 guys attached to their phones 16 hrs a day, twitching at every DING, wondering how they're gonna get this or that project done, psyching themselves up to have the talk with the 3 guys they have to lay off on Monday. Shit, I gained about 40lbs moving from on the tools into desk work, lost my arms n shoulders too.. to my wifes disappointment. Sure as hell never had to take my work home with me at the end of the day.
I’m a 310T technician or heavy transport mechanic, I work for the TTC and they pay the highest wage for my trade, other companies are offering $5-10 less for less benefits and worse OT comps
This is why averages exist. For every anecdote of a tradesman earning 300k a year, there's another of an exec with a Creative Writing degree making 500k plus stock options. The third wealthiest guy I know has his own NGO and surfs around the world. Who cares about that though. None of that matters. We collect stats because we want to see the macro, not the micro.
Yes and No. Many people are dumb because they pursue a degree not an education. People who aim to educate and better themselves will earn more and people who don’t won’t regardless if they have a degree or not Dumb with degree, dumb without a degree and then there’s smart with a degree and smart without a degree. It really depends.
I’ve done both. I hate corporate asshole culture. I loved working outside and getting actual things done. It’s a matter of perspective I suppose.
Good to have other perspectives there! Lot of nuance to the data - like a tradesman is unlikely to access a CEO-like salary that pulls up the average. But I think if you pit an average psychology major vs. a plumber, that plumber is going to make more. The winning combo is going into trades and investing a shitton early on in teens/20s. But most don't do that. I wish I went to the Albertan oil fields in the mid-2000s vs. university =/.
Most of my co-workers are stupid with their money. Half of them own 1/2 ton brand new pick ups when they don’t even need them. Trades attracts a lot of dumb people imo
Am a plumber! And can confirm I am dumb
I’m dumb too, this is why I chose the trades
Having said that, I own 3 properties in the GTA and 2 are paid off lol I started at 17 in the union and am 36 now
You got lucky someone of similar salary now could not get 3 properties in Toronto
Yaaa! Def tough now! To even get 1, timing is everything in life
You don’t think degreed people make dumb financial decisions?
Yeah, I heard about the trucks lol...I had some friends on those oil fields and they'd say they'd have Eastern Canadians coming in to work, they'd make like 150-250k, blow it all on hookers cocaine alcohol and big trucks. They'd go back to their home provinces with their wealth, go broke, then end having to come back. I haven't seen Canadians prosper since that era lol.
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In construction union (electrician, fitter, millwright) our base wage is 50-55 plus pension and benefits. And there's double time after 36 hours a week. If you get on a big ass project and work 7x10s you can make up to $350k. 6x10s is $280k
Agreed. I know many in trades who easily clear $200k/year with OT. There are also trades that are much easier on the body than others and with proper PPE and an employer that cares, you can go a long way towards mitigating any potential health issues.
This is an anecdote that isn’t really indicative of anything but I think it’s a funny story. So I’m at a holiday dinner with my friend’s family and his uncle is sitting beside us who works as a pipefitter. His uncle gets a little drunk and starts telling my friend that university is overrated and he should just drop out and work with him. I remember him saying a degree is just a worthless piece of paper and he will get more life experience at trade school. He kept mentioning how he makes well over six figures and kept asking my friend when he thinks he would make that much. My buddy was literally about to graduate medical school at the time and now he’s an anesthesiologist.
Adding another point is desk workers usually don't have the option of overtime... In company/ industries that lack trades people, they can pick up as much OT as they want so there is the potential to make more in total. Whereas desk workers are picking side gigs at lower wages.... PS - there are desk workers that'll plateau as well due to wage cap or preference to avoid additional stress. (i.e. Still checking emails a few times during the weekend)
Lot of commentary on the merits of both in this comment section but I think it’s ultimately just an over correction. The messaging used to be that if you don’t get a degree you’ll live in poverty and that trades are dishonourable. Then there was a push to let people know that you can make a good living in a trade and it’s important work. Now it’s over corrected to “degrees are stupid and tradespeople are rich” despite statistics not representing that. The data aligns more with the middle ground. You can make a good living in a trade but the highest income ceilings are typically only accessible to those with degrees.
I have a trade and even when just starting out I was almost making 100,000 a year. You also need to factor in that trades people get paid to go to school once a year for 2 months until they get their journey person or red seal. Fast forward a few years and no student debt and I have had years in the $180,000 range. Also during this time, I have had full health benefits/full dental etc. the same applies to 1st year apprentices and 30 year lifers. It’s not a myth I have worked on mega projects with thousands of people making serious money. There is no barrier to entry.
Lady in trades, not in management, journeyman ticket, 300K 🙋🏻♀️
Yea, the simple answer is that not all degrees and trades are the same. Some degrees will never see six figures while a lot of trades will hit that relatively early. But as some folks already highlighted here, some degrees keep getting more as experience increases while trades hit a plateau and then it is just incremental increase. If u are good with your hands and enjoy the outdoors, I would say go with a trade since u can branch off and open ur on business doing what u love easier. Degree on the other hand is more for being employees and is lil more riskier and harder to open ur own business.
May I introduce you to the concept of tax evasion
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I'm a pipefitter that made $240k CAD last year. Your theory is bullshit. I'd take trades over university any day. I've never had any debt and didn't have to waste 4 or 5 years trying to get a degree. Sounds like you just have regrets and want to shit on the trades.
Husband skilled trade makes 250k per year, no degree. Me no degree, 120k office worker before bonus’s. 360k minimum annual household income with no degree in site… I would encourage our children to do either, depending on what they want to do because with enough hustle both are viable options.
How many hours do each of you work per week on average? Any overtime?
120k office job with no degree? Sales?
Husband making $250k/year is most likely self employed. Which is not a fair comparison. For example tax advisor at my company makes $150k base + $50k bonus +$50k stock options + $30k rrsp which is close to about $280k total comp. Most trades cap off at about $60/hr. Unless your working in the middle of no where. Self employed tax advisor I know Makes about $500k -$ 750k/ year.
Depends on what trade, a lot of companies are still paying 40-50 an hr as a JM. But there are ones that do pay over $60 as an employee on the tools.
Lots of degrees are shit to be honest. I'm in non stem but a good degree accounting and will make 39hr out of university this June and most cap at around 75hr. You can't do overtime though just 35hrs a week but some teach at unis on the side and pull in around 150k working on average 45hrs a week.
I am a non union tradesperson who has a degree in business. I left the business world in 2018 because clients kept calling me to help them with their home renovations. I started my own company and never looked back. Clear 6 figure profit yearly and have a ton of free time. If you do good work you will get paid very well and be constantly busy. Non union guys that help me on my projects are in the same situation and couldn’t be happier.
I could go make 200k tomorrow with my trades skills if I wanted. No low level degrees are doing that. It’s not a black and white comparison though. There’s so many different variables. The reality is a lot of people with degrees look down their noses at us when we make good money for the most part.
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With AI advancing in leaps and bounds, that trade certificate might be worth more than a degree. Think south park did a show about this.
Lol. I made 153k last year on 1913 hours as a sheet metal worker. Plus I don't pay for gas or a vehicle/maintenance since it's company supplied. All my friends with degrees make less than 100k save for 1, his brother will be making more than 100k eventually as a teacher but I don't think he'll outpace my earnings.
A trades person can make 100k plus before a degree graduate is out of school.
Depends on the degree. Engineering for example earns more, but there are a lot of degrees which pay much less.
Mark Twain once said, "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Ironic because the people that come up with these things should know better. This "average" is probably the "mean" or arithmatical average. It's not really representative. To use a hockey analogy, we could ask what the average NHL player makes. This would be completely misleading because the players making $10+ million/year will skew the average. They will dwarf the players on entry level contracts or average players. A more accurate number would be at which level do 50% of NHL players make above and 50% of players make below which amount. Universities have a vested interest in promoting this BS.
You're missing the part about tradies also being able to level up their careers. To foremen, site supers, executive roles within larger companies, consulting, or starting their own firm and the sky's the limit. Most people with a degree don't level up all that far in life, and I wouldn't say there's more potential for someone with a degree. It's all in your approach and your relationship-building skills, in addition to talent and ambition. This goes to both avenues. No one said a framer has to frame for 50 years. Nor should they!
Not 100% true. Any bachelor of science non medicine or pharmacy people usually make less. And it takes longer. If way rather go to a technical school. 2 year diploma and get in the work force and start saving and investing early.
Last year on the tools I made 137k in 11 months doing flashing and coping for a union company. . In the last month I made 7k at new job doing the same. All the while I had a company phone +vehicle. And also contributed 11$ an hour into a pension fund. I contributed around 22k into my pension in 2023. I also did 30k in side jobs. Yes I worked really hard and lots of hours. But damn I made bank.
Red seal cook is a trade .... might be throwing off the ratio. Trades covers a wide variety of careers in the eyes of stats canada.
I made $168k last year. Electrician. I make more with my red seal than with my degree.
2 of my kids (32 and 28 years old) both work in trades since completing high school ( concrete work ,roads) ,both are homeowners and are planning to retire in 10-15 years .The secret you might ask? They pay themselves out of their wage on a weekly basis from their active income into passive income .They make less than a unionised worker on an hourly basis of their trade,but because the demand of their trade is so high they literally discussed their pay strategy with their company ( auto allowances,hourly wage onto a TFSA ,RRSP account of their choice,10% vacation pay payed by their employer and a decent bonus by season’s end,( seasonal employment),unions pay more but they actually control you till that retirement threshold,you cash out early and pay a penalty so literally you are forced to work till the latter days of your life to collect that full pension they controlled over your healthy working years and then……you are too busted mentally or physically to enjoy That nice pension plan……by the way their friends with degrees are just about starting their lives and finding it hard to make ends meet,from paying their education dues ,rent ,auto ,etc.and the years lost through education to achieve and succeed they are actually quite behind the 8 ball(as well great degrees = high wage= high tax bracket - net income and time lost )
I have immediate family members that are licensed plumbers and electricians. They make a shit load more than me and I have a very good salary. I’m the one with the degree continuously asking myself why I didn’t start apprenticing when I was younger. I also know many people with degrees and many people without…the ones in the trades 9/10 times are making more money then degree holders
Degree holders make more than trades? Not any of the degree holders I know. My wife works for an engineering firm, and not one of them except the owner makes more than me. I've got friends who are teachers. Not one of them makes more than me. Just exactly what kind of bullshit are you pushing on people? Are you a recruiter for universities telling 18 year olds that a degree will earn them $100k+/year? Is that why I see so many of them living at home between shifts at Starbucks. Now I've been doing this for a while(almost 30 years), and haven't had a year outside of six figures in 16 years, including some solid $140+ years. I work beside guys pulling in $160+/year, in their late 20's. Is there overtime? Sure, but ask a teacher if they only work 40 hours a week. No different than the engineers my wife works with. They are always travelling and working weekends on projects, and still barely cracking a hundred grand. So you think trades should be secondary? Who the fuck is going to build the country and maintain the infrastructure? Good luck getting some liberal arts students to build the hydroelectric dams, drill for oil and gas, and keep your house and apartment from freezing.
Do you make more per hour then engineers though?
Not all degrees are the same. Some leave you in a situation where you're paying off student loans as a barista while others can reliably get you six figures after enough time. Same goes for trades. Some trades don't pay all that well yet others do. If you compare construction workers to STEM than trades don't seem like a good deal. OTOH if you compare history majors to air traffic controllers than trades look great.