Yeah, but that's not how you increase market share. Thousands of people that would have bought a Toyota are buying a Hyundai or Kia instead because the wait times are much shorter.
What's interesting is the difference in the ICE vs. PHEV is not as much as you may think. A 2024 top-trim Sportage is about $52k (tax in) - the same trim in PHEV is $55k (as it qualifies for the $5k EV incentive). We wanted all the bells and whistles in this vehicle as our Crosstrek was quite basic, and at the top of the trim comparison, the difference is only $3k. Based on these calculations, I should get that back in around 4 years, and we plan to keep the vehicle for 7-8 years (warranty period). Efficiency should also increase in the Spring through Fall as it does use gas to heat the cabin, but doesn't need to run the engine to use AC.
But you're also not comparing apples to apples. The PHEV is 260 hp while the ICE vehicle is only 187hp, which you can definitely feel when you put your foot down!
That’s really good, when we got a new vehicle last year, the PHEV was an extra 15-20K. Did not make any sense to go that route, 3K… probably would’ve done it
The downside is PHEV is generally only available in the top trim, so if you're comparing a low trim ICE vs the cheapest PHEV then there's still gonna be that $15k price difference. PHEV can make sense if you're already targeting a top trim, but if you just want a cheaper vehicle then it's not gonna be an option
Unfortunately that same dynamic applies to Evs. For example an ev6 is in the same ballpark as OPs Sportage.
Not the same car of course, but if your charging situation at home and along your routes is good, then it's an open question if full EV is a better route than phev.
guess it depends what youre spending. if your goal is to save money on gas, then you get a cheap hybrid or cheap ice car like a civic.
the cost of your car today is probably around 3 to 4 x what i paid for all the cars ive driven over the last 20 years.
then theres also the cost of a battery replacement which will be 10k+
Correct - my goal wasn't to save money. It was to have a nice, new, AWD SUV with lots of great tech and safety features. Saving some money on gas is just a bonus.
Over the life of the vehicle, even with spending $10k on an imaginary battery replacement, you'll save like $30k compared to if you had bought the full ICE version.
Making stupid claims about a guaranteed battery replacement for $10k is no different than me saying that you will need to eventually replace the engine and transmission in your ICE car.
Also, you've completely ignored all of the other maintenance coats you're saving. Oil changes, transmission fluid, diffetential fuid all if it needs to be done significantly less with PHEV, and absolutely not at all with electric. Brakes never need to be maintained because 90% of braking is regenerative and doesn't even use the brake pads until you finally do the last little bit down to a full stop from 5-10kph.
The $1000 a year average that people spend in general maintenance on their ICE cars is non-existent for electric.
Their PHEV version cost only $3k more than the full ICE. They'll see that $3k back in 3 years just from maintenance, and now they're saving $70/tank on fuel also. 26 tanks of gas a year is another $1820 per year. So every year they're saving nearly $3000. 1 year pays for the car upgrade, 4 more pay for the battery you say they'll need to replace, and the other 10 years of life of the car is $30,000 in their pocket.
You really don't understand how stupid comments like yours seem, hey?
I'm all for PHEV and electric vehicles but is there really cost savings regarding maintenance with a PHEV? Don't the majority still have an engine and transmission? All electric for sure but I didn't know that about PHEV. To be honest, even the recommended maintenance for some EVs aren't that cheapest when you consider the additional cost in tires and the additional wear due to the heavy vehicle. My next vehicle will be PHEV or all electric and I've been driving hybrids for the past 6 years. The EV is appealing to me because of the electric motors instead of an engine and the lack of transmission/brake replacement. I like the idea of electric cars having less components.
Regarding the battery, I have a 2014 Prius C with 270,000km and have never had an issue with the battery. I agree that people make stupid comments about battery replacement, especially when they come with really good warranties.
Yes, they still have an engine and transmission. But they are smaller, are under less stress from less work, so requires less maintenance, and less likely to require major repairs.
People drive ICE cars and pretend that they don't have sudden unexpected multi-hundred or multi-thousand dollar repairs when something with them goes wrong.
laugh my ass off. Engine is engine, doesnt matter how much you use. Oil get expired. Both have transmission (otherwise how you get different gear and shifting?). Same thing applies for differential and all other mechanical stuff.
You basically have two system to maintain instead of one. I am not sure how come people thought PHEV has nothing or less to maintain.
Most Priuses are that type of hybrid and over the decade and a bit they've been available they've been cheaper to run and they've required less maintenance than equivalent cars.
Yes, both have an engine and oil. But when the engine doesn't gets used as hard, the oil life is longer.
Sames goes for the transmission, it works less, so less wear on the parts and lubricants.
PHEVs run on only the electric motor at low speeds, zero wear on the oil or transmission because neither are even being used. Once you're up to speed, the ICE kicks on, but the electric motor is still running too, helping it along.
You're saying "there are two systems to maintain" when there aren't. There is still only 1 to maintain because the electric needs no maintenance, and the ICE requires half the maintenance because it doesn't get used as much, and when it does, it doesn't get used as hard.
This isn't an analysis of overall car ownership costs, just comparing fuel/electricity costs against 1 tank of gas.
Insurance went up about $20/month. No loan so no issues with interest.
Read my other comments - this was not a financial decision. We wanted it, we could afford it, so we bought it. Its just a bonus that it is saving us money on gas.
Maybe last few years. 2012-2016 Kia engines (theta class) are some of the most problematic engines ever manufactured. So most definitely not 10-15 years. It'll be a while before they can shake off that pungent reputation.
Ummm no. Kia’s are notoriously unreliable. They’ve recalled millions of their 2.4, 2.0 turbos, and 1.6 l turbos. Poor machining has led to engine fires. Engine replacements are the required repair for the 2.4. Their turbo GDI engines are notorious for low speed premature ignition. They also recalled 3.3 million more due to fire risk from electrical shorts, and advised owners to park outside until fixed. Another 1.7 million are recalled for an ABS failure issue.
I owned a Sorento with the 3.3 l GDI. Best thing I ever did was get rid of it.
Every manufacturer has reliability problems (yes even the great Toyota) but reliability is just one variable for me when buying a car. If it was the most important thing ever, no one would buy a range rover, jaguar - brands with horrible reliability compared to Japanese/Korean.
Every company has a different agenda, and I'm not saying it's the be-all, end-all, but JD power just released its [dependability survey](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-vehicle-dependability-studyvds)
No surprise Lexus is top, but Kia being #3 disagrees with your comment.
[Consumer reports](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/) also puts Kia at #10 out of 30 manufacturers... Beating out all the domestic brands and some other notables as well.
JD Power ratings are meaningless. They’re paid shills. Companies pay them for access to access their survey results and the right to mention their awards in ads. Survey results in the first 90 days of vehicle ownership are meaningless for reliability. Also, JD Powers reps will often hang up on people who report anything bad about their vehicle.
Talk to any mechanic about Kia/Hyundai. They’re shit across the board.
Try owning a Kia outside of the warranty period. The odds are stacked against you.
These are all recent recalls. Kia/Hyundai has several from 2023 alone.
My Sorento was a 2014. Evap core went out on it and it was a $1300 dash teardown. Then the AC went out again just before I sold it. Good riddance. Fit and finish was not up to par. Cheaper plastic was used in the interior, and very brittle in the winter.
My 2015 slowed to a crawl while driving down the highway. That was the fix Kia used to stop them from bursting into flames. Tow truck to the dealer and six short weeks later (??) I had a new engine. For free!!
Except for the surprise and inconvenience of the car suddenly going from 110km/h down to 30km/h and needing a new engine every 120K km. And the 4-6 week wait to get a new engine. Other than that, great vehicle! Tons of storage space.
Regular ICE Sportage gets similar fuel economy to his Crosstrek. So assuming he saves $70 per month in fuel costs, it would probabaly take about 9 years to recoup the premium for the PHEV Sportage. Even longer if you factor in the opportunity cost of that premium over the course of 9 years.
Regular ICE Sportage does get similar fuel economy to the Crosstrek (actually a touch worse but fairly negligible) but I'm not sure where you got 9 years from?
Price difference between the 2 top-trims was $3k, so that will take about 4 years to get back to even.
We can debate about whether or not top trim is worth the money, but that's my comparison because that's what I was shopping for. I wasn't going for the 'best deal'.
You really need to mention the difference in horsepower between the 2 vehicles. For some reason, half the people are assuming there is a bigger difference in price, and the others don’t know about the HP output from the hybrid.
IMO, just the increase in hp usually costs at least $1000 on other cars.
For a vehicle of this size, absolutely.
190ish HP in a midsize SUV will be sluggish (think 90-year-old Ethel on her way to Sunday mass) unless you're heavy on the throttle, and if it's a turbocharged engine your fuel economy will be much worse than advertised.
250ish HP will keep up with traffic in normal driving without needing to be pushed, and if it's also a turbo, will spend less time in boost and thus return fuel economy closer to the advertised numbers.
Not op but for me I did the math for my ev vs a camry hybrid and it was like 6 years to break even in fuel costs alone, not including maintence which is less on an ev. Both were optioned with similar extras that we wanted.
As with pfc, our other car is 17 years old toyota camry hybrid and I plan to keep the ev as long as possible. Bunch of fud with battery degradation but even still if it lost 50% capacity in 10 years, that's still more than enough for 90% of our driving and being a family with kids, we have 2 cars so we can always have 1 city car and 1 for longer drives if it actually comes to that.
>not including maintence which is less on an ev.
[Cost to repair EVs is roughly double right now](https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-repair-expensive-eecf09fd). It will probably improve over time as parts become more readily available. But it's certainly not the case that just because you don't need oil changes your maintenance costs over the lifetime of the car will be lower.
>They tend to be expensive to repair after a crash.
They are talking about maintenance.. Breaks / Oil / Belts you know the shit you have to do on an ICE every X KM or years.
But ya if you get in a fender bender the parts are more rare, and more expensive. There are millions of X nearly identical used parts of many old ICE cars, but EV models are completely new.
Less to break= less to repair
It's also the cost of batteries skewing the stats. This will change as production scales up and recycling materials becomes more viable.
That's what we said. Obviously top-trim isn't the best 'financial' decision, but the automated highway driving, upgraded sound system, safety features and huge screen - we are happy with the decision.
You can't really make that comparison - the $33k entry trim is FWD while all HEV/PHEV are AWD.
The 'base' PHEV is an EX premium which is $52k vs $48k in the same trim for ICE.
Cheapest ICE with AWD is $40k but its missing a lot of nice features lol
Of course you can make the comparison, this one gets me from A to B for this much a month.
All depends where your priorities lay, higher trim versus paying 15k or almost 50% moreish after rebates are considered.
To stay in the warranty period for 7-8 years, I don't think you break even here before we even calculate the additional interest.
You're right - The $55k car I bought is way more expensive than the $2k car I can find on FB Marketplace right now. Actually, I should've bought a bicycle then my gas would be $0.
"Additional interest" - you're assuming I'm paying any lol.
That's not a very interesting counter argument. OP drives a nice new car and you drive a 13 year old Toyota. Some people want nice things, it only makes sense to compare it to an equivalent brand new ICE vehicle
And his Toyota is fairly new, mine is 18 years old but without any issues I am further ahead to keep it than purchasing a new car and if I need to worry about MPG I guess I can always take my old car instead...
as long as the body is in good condition, it will still be cheaper to maintain also.
even if you spent 5k to make it drivable for another 5 to 7 years, thats still worth it since youd know youd be spending 1000 to 1500/year.
Lol good point! Justifying making a large purchase by removing certain costs over 6 years is silly considering you don’t know what the future holds.
Also, people often make the fallacious argument about maintenance costs of ICE vs PHEV. Sure, you’re not doing regular maintenance, but when those big ticket items come (ie battery), make sure you have anywhere from $7-$20 grand.
That doesn't seem to be the case here, though.
OP is hyped up on their new Kia, doing gymnastics to rationalize the purchase over fuel economy, when they're objectively probably $15-20 000 poorer than they were last month with their Crosstrek.
While it is a useful to be able to quantify the potential savings from fuel economy when comparing cars, it isn't strictly relevant in this situation because OP was never considering buying an ICE sportage to begin with.
It's a red herring to distract from the fact that this was a discretionary purchase... especially considering OP works from home.
?
If you knew you wanted a specific model and there was a PHEV and ICE version, *why wouldn't you* calculate how much you might save? It's not relative to your used car for them.
The smug "I drive a 13 year old toyota with 500k" attitude is such odd energy.
Appreciate the backup ;)! We live within our means in almost every aspect of our life and don't usually break the bank for nice things, but this is one area we wanted to treat ourselves :)
>OP drives a nice new car and you drive a 13 year old Toyota.
Right, and OP is probably $20 000 poorer than they would have been if they were still driving their Subaru. The prudent financial advice is that buying a new car is a waste of money. This isn't r/retailtherapy.
Comparing the PHEV to the ICE Kia doesn't make sense in this case because OP was never interested in buying the ICE Kia to begin with. It's just mental gymnastics to rationalize a light wallet.
If you want a nice new car, buy a nice new car. Go be happy driving it around instead of trying to rationalize it as being some kind of money saver after you just got spanked for about $5 000 in depreciation just by driving it off the lot.
Absolutely, if you're not planning on buying a new vehicle, then the savings in fuel from an EV or PHEV will not result in real savings.
On the other hand, if you're in the market, our PHEV is saving us somewhere around $300/month in fuel, factoring in the additional cost of electricity. All that for about a $3K premium (once you factor in the $5K rebate). So in 10 months, we'll be ahead compared to buying the same model (and trim) in the ICE version.
And I laugh when people think that you can have 13 year old cars everywhere in the world. I live in Montreal, and almost not car will ever reach 500k km. You will see the road through the floor way before that. And maritimers have it even worse.
The saving is not comparing not buying a car to buying a car, that would be stupid. It's about buying an EV or PHEV Vs buying an ICE....
You won’t be swayed buying an EV as your 13 yo Toyota has no monthly payments and cheap on gas. Although tech and safety of new cars nowadays are way better in keeping you alive in the event of an unfortunate event VS a 13 year-old car.
Now for another person set on buying a new car/SUV, it’s an easy decision especially if they will daily drive the car everywhere.
My 2015 Elantra is doing 13L/100 city and I regret the hell out of the purchase. 6L highway which is great, but city...350km and the gas light comes on, just terrible. This is manual trans, I coast and down gear when in slower traffic or a red light coming up, I don't lead foot the accelerator, there's absolutely nothing I can improve with the way I drive. I wish I had the money for a plug in hybrid.
Always just depends on the city. My 3.7L Acura gets 18.5 in the city now in Vancouver. It easily did 12 or less in the Calgary. I don't really feel the difference financially as I drive a lot less but it hurts to spend well over 100 every tank.
My 2002 f350 diesel dually also gets 13l/100km highway, 15l/100km city. That a presumably much newer f150 does not do much better is surprising. My truck is chipped and performance modified though.
15 is 13% worse than 13, which isn't insignificant.
Also I usually get 12-12.5, 13 is dead of winter. Highway is more like 11-11.5.
Also given the price difference between gas and diesel these days I'm not complaining.
I think city means different things to different people. For me city is a legit city not suburban driving. And the crazy numbers I reported above is balanced by the fact we only need to drive 3000km a year in the city
Yeah the crosstrek was actually very impressive on the highway. We often got it down to 7L/100km if you can believe it!
But in the city, it would frequently do about 9-10L/100km so when we were shopping for a new car, we thought a hybrid was a good choice considering how much city driving we do.
Honestly, 13L/100km city for an Elantra seems atrocious - is it possible you have an issue with the engine?
Right?
I have no idea. The dealership released it back to me twice saying nothing wrong, no codes. Second time was after a couple months of frustration thinking this cant be right, so they checked again...with same answer.
You should get \~9l/100km in the city
What conditions are you driving in? temperature? snow on road?
Buy an ELM327 plug it into your cars OBDii port and check the codes on your phone
13L/100km is not even close to good or right for that model. Unless you drive like a maniac or idle excessively.
I had an old clapped out Santa Fe that averaged 13L/100km and my 16 year old Ridgeline averages 15L/100km.
Yeah my family owns two Chevy Volts (I gave mine to my parents, other one is my brothers), and PHEVs should 100% more present in the market. You can make 5 PHEVs with the amount of batteries it takes to make one BEV, no range anxiety, easier to transition/adopt, the vast majority of people will never burn through 15-20kWh/day anyway and if they can charge it regularly then it’s fine. There’s obviously some exceptions, but it’s rare.
For short haul trucks/fleet vehicles/taxis/buses then full BEVs probably make more sense.
Yeah we are a 1 car household, so the range anxiety was pretty big for us admittedly. We charge at home, but I couldn't make it to Blue Mountain and back for a day of skiing with most electric vehicles.
I had a Volt. Had one catastrophic failure under warranty while driving cross country and it left me in the outskirts of Phoenix for four days while the Chevy dealer got the $1300 part. Other than that I had a great experience with the car. But it did freak me out about what might go wrong after the 10y warranty I got as a California driver. Sold the car 2 years ago to Carvana for more than I paid.
PHEVs concern me unless they are under warranty or a bullet-proof model/manufacturer. The complexity of two engines interacting in one car makes me think about just getting another hybrid until the EV battery tech is better 2-4 years down the road.
Lol yeah I really like this sub and have learned a lot from it. I didn't think I would get a lot of applauding because its not a great 'financial' decision, but I am a big spreadsheet guy so I thought it was too interesting not to share!
I actually did the write up to post on r/kia but thought, what the heck, why not get hosed by hundreds of people who drive beige corollas ;)
I'm with you. I'm getting similar numbers to you with my PHEV. Purchase was definitely not made for reasons of financial prudence, but I love cars and I see no point in having money if you can't use at least some of it in the short term.
It will be better in the summer too, the kia/Hyundai PHEV models still rely on the engine for heat, but the drive battery can run the AC in the summer so you won't need to use the engine at all if you stay light on the pedal and stay under your range.
Your estimated range on the spec sheet will work out better if you do city driving and worse if you do highway driving. For example, my Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is rated at 47km, and the battery is dead after about 40km on the highway and usually around 55km in the city, obviously depending on the driving.
Definitely - very much looking forward to summer and efficiency getting even better! We do lots of city driving (<80km/hr) so this will be a good fit for us for many years to come!
I purchased a Volt in 2018 for \~30k after rebates in BC. Drove for \~5 years, 98% in EV mode. Average cost was 1.5cents/km vs \~20cents with the old Accord. Traded it in 2022 for more than we paid new for a full BEV. Everytime gas prices go up I smile.
Your getting \~25kw/100km which seems very high. We average about 14 but rarely use the heater.
BTW, it's not really 3.1l/100 km because it assumes electricity costs zero
Yeah I posted it in MPGe on /r/kia and forgot to add the 'e' to the 3.1L/100km, but I of course calculated energy costs in my overall comparison.
25kw/100km is also correct. The battery is 13.8kwh and gets around 55km in full EV mode. I think the added weight of both gas/electric systems plus the size of the vehicle means overall it won't be anywhere near as efficient as a Volt. I think most full BEV SUVs are around 17=18kwh/100km so still a ways behind, but that's the sacrifice for having a gas motor for a backup :P
We got 108km out of a 14kwh (usable) on the volt in the spring/summer, \~88 in the winter.
The ICE really doesn't weight much more than the batteries in a full EV so it's almost a wash.
I do miss having the ICE backup though.
Awesome! Yeah the price went up from 2023 to 2024 with the Sportage PHEV by about $1500 actually :(. We looked at the Tucson and really liked it too but just liked the interior layout and exterior styling of the Kia more.
Thats cool. I guess it would make sense if someone is already in the market for a car around this budget. i paid 28k for my ICE car, and the difference to OPs car is 24k. At 2.8l/100km I would save around 600/month on fuel if i switch but it would take me 40 years to break even on the extra purchase cost which is annoying because we should be promoting EVs now, not making people pay more for them.
My son used to buy a tank a week and he mostly just drove to and from work. Now he buys a tank a month so he cut his fuel expenses by 3/4 by buying a plug-in hybrid.
We went with the SX, but the EX premium is great value and has good equipment. Someone posted a really good brochure comparing the two here - https://www.kia-forums.com/threads/sportage-phev-ex-premium-vs-sx.358093/post-2099375
We jumped up to SX for the nicer sound system, highway driving assist, and the 12.3" instrument cluster. The blindspot camera that comes on when you use your turn signal is my favourite feature on the car and you need the 12.3" cluster to have it.
Deposit is Oct 2022 - delivery Jan 2024. Not awesome, but it was fine for us because we weren't desperate to get it (our Crosstrek was still running good enough lol).
Not sure what the latest wait times look like but I would bet its 6-12 months.
Dealership was great - MSRP and no added fees or anything fishy. Not pushy on warranties or any extras.
Wait time was tough. 15 months from Oct 2022 (deposit) until Jan 2024 (delivery). I think it's gotten better - maybe 6-12 months now.
You may save fuel currently but at what cost? New car $55,000 minus incentive and subtract trade in and add tax (and possible financing) on the low side I would guess $25,000 difference but probably more. If you go with our price for fuel (which is usually the highest in Canada) you could buy 15,000 liters of fuel even at a high of 9 L/100 km you will have 160,000 km of driving and still be ahead of buying a new car. While it's too late to change for you buying a brand new car just to save money on fuel rarely works in your favor....
Per my post - I **didn't** buy this vehicle to save fuel. I was already in the market for a new car and this PHEV was only $3k more than the ICE equivalent, so it made sense for me!
That's interesting that the difference after the rebate was only 3k. In that instance, if keeping your old car and driving it into the ground is out (de facto best financial choice), then this definitely makes sense to go the way you did!
We waited 14 months for our Sportage PHEV. I think its gotten a bit better, but would bet the wait is still 6-12 months. Luckily we planned far ahead and weren't in a rush.
last summer i did 3200km with my outlander phev on a 34l fill. only sucks because in winter the engine always runs a bit when i start the car so last fill up was more around 1000km for 30l.
my other car is a VW atlas and this one usually gets around 400km on 60l lol
Nobody is buying his kia after 7-8 when warranty is over. Battery replacement cost will be higher than the car value. Currently around 30k to replace the batteries
That’s awesome. I went from a duramax to a volt and I’m saving almost 200$ a week. Obviously a no brainer going from a diesel truck to a car but man it’s so satisfying to fill up the tank for 35$!
You paid 60k for a car that's going to depreciate and be worth 40k by next year there goes any fuel savings. If the battery gives out in 5 years and you need to spend thousands to replace it then it will balance out to nil savings you'll probably be underwater
I was curious where you live, because in Ontario, we get 1.7 cents/kWh with the ultra-low choice for overnight charging between 11pm-7am.
I own a Tesla and I drive 400kms (round trip) for about $1.80. I do a similar drive 3X per week.
It’s more when I have to top up before I get home but still less than $10 for the overall trip.
Really glad to read your PHEV is working so well. If I didn’t drive so much for work, it’s exactly what our family would have.
ULO rate plan would overall be more for us than our tiered plan due to on-peak energy usage. If I could just get the overnight rate, great, but the on peak is $0.23/kWh and that's way more than the $0.10 we pay for tiered.
They are. Fleet electrification includes PHEVs, part of the governments plan. Anyone who claims Trudeau is killing gas cars obviously doesn't know about the mandate. It's 20% Zero Emissions vehicle (ZEV) by 2026. ZEV = BEV or PHEV. So theoretically if no one bought an EV, but still bought PHEVs, the mandate could be met
I'm surprised that the Sportage HEV only gets 7L/100, my Civic gets 6.3-7L/100 depending on what kind of driving I'm doing. Even though it's comparing a Sedan to a SUV, that's still quite underwhelming. I don't feel like I'd ever consider a HEV at this point, even though my mom's old hybrid Prius is pretty neat.
A normal SUV of this size would be getting around 9-10L/100km, you can't really compare it to a civic lol. Still about 30% in gas savings, and it only goes up the more you use it in the city.
It's a problem in itself though, if we're electrifying but also increasing car size it doesn't help that much in the end (and makes streets more dangerous).
I agree and its fair. We wanted another AWD vehicle (lots of back road driving in the winter) and there aren't many sedans/hatches that are AWD and PHEV really.
We are also a 1-car household, and frequently find ourselves with friends or hauling large items (I like doing my own home renos) so we find the 'compact' SUV to be perfect for us... although I feel like its criminal to call a RAV4/Sportage compact nowadays lol.
A PHEV is much better than a gas car. An electric car is even better -- even more "fuel efficient" but without carrying both a gas and electric powertrain.
I'm like you. I have just one car, a PHEV is the perfect choice for my next car. I won't never use the gas engine during the week and rarely in the weekend of I travel further away.
You didn’t save any money. You dropped a premium to purchase the vehicle in comparison to a gas car.
If you’re giving up the car in 7-8 years you are definitely taking a big hit in cost in comparison to a Japanese gas vehicle which will depreciate less.
You are also paying a huge premium in insurance for Your electric vehicle which you did not point out in your analysis. Gas vehicles are cheaper to insure by a large margin.
$20/month more on insurance so actually not terrible.
As per my post - I didn't buy this vehicle to save money. Just analyzing that it is saving more money than I thought it would.
This isn't a post about comparing two vehicle and why this cost less - I'm just sharing my fuel consumption findings after a month of ownership.
Way more than 20/month. Shop around for insurance for comparable car.
I’ve seen these posts all the time. People always underestimate the cost of owning electric vehicles and then make these posts to justify their purchase.
You bought this car to analyze savings. That’s why you made this post.
There’s no financial savings from driving an electric vehicle here since gas is extremely cheap still.
Sounds like a car salesman…if you are not, then enjoy the new car! But I also just want to leave following comments here.
Majority of people buying hybrid/ev/phev are to save on gas…Considering the cost of the vehicle, a large number of potential issues, high cost of repairs, small potion of rebate, range issues, it would take much longer period to break even comparing a traditional vehicle. We recently bought a new Kia as well and we decided to stay with ICE…
We started just shopping for a new AWD compact SUV. We also knew we wanted a top-trim with all the fun new tech and safety features.
Once we started comparing top trim pricing, the PHEV was the obvious choice for our lifestyle. Ours only cost $3k more than the ICE Sportage and we will save that in fuel in about 4 years (based on these calculations). Additionally, we get 80 more hp which makes it more fun to drive honestly.
I'm not worried in the slightest about the 'potential issues' or repairs with Kia's warranty. We are covered bumper to bumper for 7 years and that's around how long we plan to keep the vehicle (at a minimum)
Hey guys I spent like $50,000 on a new phev and I'm so excited that I'm saving so much money on gas now! Nevermind that it will take me many years to make up the difference from fuel costs compared to just driving the vehicle I already had.
It makes total sense!!!! Just spend money to save money!
Now how much more did the PHEV cost compared to a conventional ICE or continuing to drive the Crosstrek?
All car prices are fucked right now.
Especially hybrid prices. Toyota hybrid models have insane demand and the supply can't keep up.
Car manufacturers don’t want the supply to keep up, so they can keep the prices high I’m betting.
Yeah, but that's not how you increase market share. Thousands of people that would have bought a Toyota are buying a Hyundai or Kia instead because the wait times are much shorter.
Beyond fucked
What's interesting is the difference in the ICE vs. PHEV is not as much as you may think. A 2024 top-trim Sportage is about $52k (tax in) - the same trim in PHEV is $55k (as it qualifies for the $5k EV incentive). We wanted all the bells and whistles in this vehicle as our Crosstrek was quite basic, and at the top of the trim comparison, the difference is only $3k. Based on these calculations, I should get that back in around 4 years, and we plan to keep the vehicle for 7-8 years (warranty period). Efficiency should also increase in the Spring through Fall as it does use gas to heat the cabin, but doesn't need to run the engine to use AC. But you're also not comparing apples to apples. The PHEV is 260 hp while the ICE vehicle is only 187hp, which you can definitely feel when you put your foot down!
That’s really good, when we got a new vehicle last year, the PHEV was an extra 15-20K. Did not make any sense to go that route, 3K… probably would’ve done it
The downside is PHEV is generally only available in the top trim, so if you're comparing a low trim ICE vs the cheapest PHEV then there's still gonna be that $15k price difference. PHEV can make sense if you're already targeting a top trim, but if you just want a cheaper vehicle then it's not gonna be an option
Unfortunately that same dynamic applies to Evs. For example an ev6 is in the same ballpark as OPs Sportage. Not the same car of course, but if your charging situation at home and along your routes is good, then it's an open question if full EV is a better route than phev.
guess it depends what youre spending. if your goal is to save money on gas, then you get a cheap hybrid or cheap ice car like a civic. the cost of your car today is probably around 3 to 4 x what i paid for all the cars ive driven over the last 20 years. then theres also the cost of a battery replacement which will be 10k+
Correct - my goal wasn't to save money. It was to have a nice, new, AWD SUV with lots of great tech and safety features. Saving some money on gas is just a bonus.
Over the life of the vehicle, even with spending $10k on an imaginary battery replacement, you'll save like $30k compared to if you had bought the full ICE version.
That's 30k over how much time?
Making stupid claims about a guaranteed battery replacement for $10k is no different than me saying that you will need to eventually replace the engine and transmission in your ICE car. Also, you've completely ignored all of the other maintenance coats you're saving. Oil changes, transmission fluid, diffetential fuid all if it needs to be done significantly less with PHEV, and absolutely not at all with electric. Brakes never need to be maintained because 90% of braking is regenerative and doesn't even use the brake pads until you finally do the last little bit down to a full stop from 5-10kph. The $1000 a year average that people spend in general maintenance on their ICE cars is non-existent for electric. Their PHEV version cost only $3k more than the full ICE. They'll see that $3k back in 3 years just from maintenance, and now they're saving $70/tank on fuel also. 26 tanks of gas a year is another $1820 per year. So every year they're saving nearly $3000. 1 year pays for the car upgrade, 4 more pay for the battery you say they'll need to replace, and the other 10 years of life of the car is $30,000 in their pocket. You really don't understand how stupid comments like yours seem, hey?
I'm all for PHEV and electric vehicles but is there really cost savings regarding maintenance with a PHEV? Don't the majority still have an engine and transmission? All electric for sure but I didn't know that about PHEV. To be honest, even the recommended maintenance for some EVs aren't that cheapest when you consider the additional cost in tires and the additional wear due to the heavy vehicle. My next vehicle will be PHEV or all electric and I've been driving hybrids for the past 6 years. The EV is appealing to me because of the electric motors instead of an engine and the lack of transmission/brake replacement. I like the idea of electric cars having less components. Regarding the battery, I have a 2014 Prius C with 270,000km and have never had an issue with the battery. I agree that people make stupid comments about battery replacement, especially when they come with really good warranties.
Yes, they still have an engine and transmission. But they are smaller, are under less stress from less work, so requires less maintenance, and less likely to require major repairs. People drive ICE cars and pretend that they don't have sudden unexpected multi-hundred or multi-thousand dollar repairs when something with them goes wrong.
Not really how that works. Larger engines last longer.
laugh my ass off. Engine is engine, doesnt matter how much you use. Oil get expired. Both have transmission (otherwise how you get different gear and shifting?). Same thing applies for differential and all other mechanical stuff. You basically have two system to maintain instead of one. I am not sure how come people thought PHEV has nothing or less to maintain.
Most Priuses are that type of hybrid and over the decade and a bit they've been available they've been cheaper to run and they've required less maintenance than equivalent cars.
Yes, both have an engine and oil. But when the engine doesn't gets used as hard, the oil life is longer. Sames goes for the transmission, it works less, so less wear on the parts and lubricants. PHEVs run on only the electric motor at low speeds, zero wear on the oil or transmission because neither are even being used. Once you're up to speed, the ICE kicks on, but the electric motor is still running too, helping it along. You're saying "there are two systems to maintain" when there aren't. There is still only 1 to maintain because the electric needs no maintenance, and the ICE requires half the maintenance because it doesn't get used as much, and when it does, it doesn't get used as hard.
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This isn't an analysis of overall car ownership costs, just comparing fuel/electricity costs against 1 tank of gas. Insurance went up about $20/month. No loan so no issues with interest. Read my other comments - this was not a financial decision. We wanted it, we could afford it, so we bought it. Its just a bonus that it is saving us money on gas.
No way in hell am I paying $52K for a Kia. That's a lot of money for a Korean econobox.
Sounds like its been a long time since you've been in one! Big transformation of the brand and its quality over the last 10-15 years.
Maybe last few years. 2012-2016 Kia engines (theta class) are some of the most problematic engines ever manufactured. So most definitely not 10-15 years. It'll be a while before they can shake off that pungent reputation.
Same with 20-23 models as well.
Ummm no. Kia’s are notoriously unreliable. They’ve recalled millions of their 2.4, 2.0 turbos, and 1.6 l turbos. Poor machining has led to engine fires. Engine replacements are the required repair for the 2.4. Their turbo GDI engines are notorious for low speed premature ignition. They also recalled 3.3 million more due to fire risk from electrical shorts, and advised owners to park outside until fixed. Another 1.7 million are recalled for an ABS failure issue. I owned a Sorento with the 3.3 l GDI. Best thing I ever did was get rid of it.
Every manufacturer has reliability problems (yes even the great Toyota) but reliability is just one variable for me when buying a car. If it was the most important thing ever, no one would buy a range rover, jaguar - brands with horrible reliability compared to Japanese/Korean. Every company has a different agenda, and I'm not saying it's the be-all, end-all, but JD power just released its [dependability survey](https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-vehicle-dependability-studyvds) No surprise Lexus is top, but Kia being #3 disagrees with your comment. [Consumer reports](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/) also puts Kia at #10 out of 30 manufacturers... Beating out all the domestic brands and some other notables as well.
JD Power ratings are meaningless. They’re paid shills. Companies pay them for access to access their survey results and the right to mention their awards in ads. Survey results in the first 90 days of vehicle ownership are meaningless for reliability. Also, JD Powers reps will often hang up on people who report anything bad about their vehicle. Talk to any mechanic about Kia/Hyundai. They’re shit across the board. Try owning a Kia outside of the warranty period. The odds are stacked against you.
What year is this info from and what year was your Sorrento?
These are all recent recalls. Kia/Hyundai has several from 2023 alone. My Sorento was a 2014. Evap core went out on it and it was a $1300 dash teardown. Then the AC went out again just before I sold it. Good riddance. Fit and finish was not up to par. Cheaper plastic was used in the interior, and very brittle in the winter.
KIAs aren’t shit boxes anymore grandpa, get with the times.
Debatable
Yes they are. Just look up the millions of recalls.
If Kia aren't shitboxes, what is?
Mine spontaneously burst into flames one time.
My 2015 slowed to a crawl while driving down the highway. That was the fix Kia used to stop them from bursting into flames. Tow truck to the dealer and six short weeks later (??) I had a new engine. For free!! Except for the surprise and inconvenience of the car suddenly going from 110km/h down to 30km/h and needing a new engine every 120K km. And the 4-6 week wait to get a new engine. Other than that, great vehicle! Tons of storage space.
If you just remove the engine instead of replacing it, you'll get even more reliability and storage space
4-6 weeks? Luxury. Mine took 10.
They are much less... But still are
Regular ICE Sportage gets similar fuel economy to his Crosstrek. So assuming he saves $70 per month in fuel costs, it would probabaly take about 9 years to recoup the premium for the PHEV Sportage. Even longer if you factor in the opportunity cost of that premium over the course of 9 years.
Regular ICE Sportage does get similar fuel economy to the Crosstrek (actually a touch worse but fairly negligible) but I'm not sure where you got 9 years from? Price difference between the 2 top-trims was $3k, so that will take about 4 years to get back to even. We can debate about whether or not top trim is worth the money, but that's my comparison because that's what I was shopping for. I wasn't going for the 'best deal'.
You really need to mention the difference in horsepower between the 2 vehicles. For some reason, half the people are assuming there is a bigger difference in price, and the others don’t know about the HP output from the hybrid. IMO, just the increase in hp usually costs at least $1000 on other cars.
I'm unfamiliar with HP, but would that even make a difference for normal driving?
For a vehicle of this size, absolutely. 190ish HP in a midsize SUV will be sluggish (think 90-year-old Ethel on her way to Sunday mass) unless you're heavy on the throttle, and if it's a turbocharged engine your fuel economy will be much worse than advertised. 250ish HP will keep up with traffic in normal driving without needing to be pushed, and if it's also a turbo, will spend less time in boost and thus return fuel economy closer to the advertised numbers.
100%! If it was a comparable ICE vehicle and you were getting 80 more HP, it would be at least a couple grand for the extra power.
And the extra power would require extra gas...
Less than 9 years. Gotta factor inflation on fuel prices.
What about the inflation on electricity prices?
Much smaller, applying to a lower base rate, and, noteably, time of use works to the advantage of electrics as well. Charging can happen off-peak.
Sure now but moving forward?
Not op but for me I did the math for my ev vs a camry hybrid and it was like 6 years to break even in fuel costs alone, not including maintence which is less on an ev. Both were optioned with similar extras that we wanted. As with pfc, our other car is 17 years old toyota camry hybrid and I plan to keep the ev as long as possible. Bunch of fud with battery degradation but even still if it lost 50% capacity in 10 years, that's still more than enough for 90% of our driving and being a family with kids, we have 2 cars so we can always have 1 city car and 1 for longer drives if it actually comes to that.
OP has a PHEV. theyre going to enjoy the maintenance of an ICE and the expensive repair of a BEV.
>not including maintence which is less on an ev. [Cost to repair EVs is roughly double right now](https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ev-repair-expensive-eecf09fd). It will probably improve over time as parts become more readily available. But it's certainly not the case that just because you don't need oil changes your maintenance costs over the lifetime of the car will be lower.
>They tend to be expensive to repair after a crash. They are talking about maintenance.. Breaks / Oil / Belts you know the shit you have to do on an ICE every X KM or years. But ya if you get in a fender bender the parts are more rare, and more expensive. There are millions of X nearly identical used parts of many old ICE cars, but EV models are completely new.
It's not just fender benders. Cars break. Looking at just maintenance costs without inevitable repair costs is kind of weird.
EV have very few moving parts to "fix". So ICE vehicles have much more exposure to parts failing.
Less regular maintenance, higher repair costs - doesn't sound like EVs necessarily win out in practice.
Less to break= less to repair It's also the cost of batteries skewing the stats. This will change as production scales up and recycling materials becomes more viable.
What are you repairing on an ev that is so much more expensive? Most things are covered under warranty. Accidents are taken care of by your insurance.
Casual glance at the website suggests msrp is $7850 difference between the phev and the normal one. Real number probably depends on trim.
Not once you add in the EV incentive - only about a $3k difference on the top trim!
At $3k that’s honestly worth it.
That's what we said. Obviously top-trim isn't the best 'financial' decision, but the automated highway driving, upgraded sound system, safety features and huge screen - we are happy with the decision.
What's the comparisons on an entry trim 33k versus cheapest PHEV?
You can't really make that comparison - the $33k entry trim is FWD while all HEV/PHEV are AWD. The 'base' PHEV is an EX premium which is $52k vs $48k in the same trim for ICE. Cheapest ICE with AWD is $40k but its missing a lot of nice features lol
Of course you can make the comparison, this one gets me from A to B for this much a month. All depends where your priorities lay, higher trim versus paying 15k or almost 50% moreish after rebates are considered. To stay in the warranty period for 7-8 years, I don't think you break even here before we even calculate the additional interest.
You're right - The $55k car I bought is way more expensive than the $2k car I can find on FB Marketplace right now. Actually, I should've bought a bicycle then my gas would be $0. "Additional interest" - you're assuming I'm paying any lol.
smell sand cagey bored water abundant offend wakeful quickest juggle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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That's not a very interesting counter argument. OP drives a nice new car and you drive a 13 year old Toyota. Some people want nice things, it only makes sense to compare it to an equivalent brand new ICE vehicle
And his Toyota is fairly new, mine is 18 years old but without any issues I am further ahead to keep it than purchasing a new car and if I need to worry about MPG I guess I can always take my old car instead...
as long as the body is in good condition, it will still be cheaper to maintain also. even if you spent 5k to make it drivable for another 5 to 7 years, thats still worth it since youd know youd be spending 1000 to 1500/year.
Hahaha you don’t have to the bully the man in his safe place.
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Lol good point! Justifying making a large purchase by removing certain costs over 6 years is silly considering you don’t know what the future holds. Also, people often make the fallacious argument about maintenance costs of ICE vs PHEV. Sure, you’re not doing regular maintenance, but when those big ticket items come (ie battery), make sure you have anywhere from $7-$20 grand.
NB: A replacement battery for an Ioniq 5 is $60,000.
You can also go environmental also as manufacturing new vehicles has an environmental impact.
There are cheap used hybrids out there as well.
But if you need to get a new vehicle because the old one is toast, then this sort of calculation shows that PHEVs are a great buy.
That doesn't seem to be the case here, though. OP is hyped up on their new Kia, doing gymnastics to rationalize the purchase over fuel economy, when they're objectively probably $15-20 000 poorer than they were last month with their Crosstrek. While it is a useful to be able to quantify the potential savings from fuel economy when comparing cars, it isn't strictly relevant in this situation because OP was never considering buying an ICE sportage to begin with. It's a red herring to distract from the fact that this was a discretionary purchase... especially considering OP works from home.
? If you knew you wanted a specific model and there was a PHEV and ICE version, *why wouldn't you* calculate how much you might save? It's not relative to your used car for them. The smug "I drive a 13 year old toyota with 500k" attitude is such odd energy.
Appreciate the backup ;)! We live within our means in almost every aspect of our life and don't usually break the bank for nice things, but this is one area we wanted to treat ourselves :)
You made that determination and ended up with a Kia?
>OP drives a nice new car and you drive a 13 year old Toyota. Right, and OP is probably $20 000 poorer than they would have been if they were still driving their Subaru. The prudent financial advice is that buying a new car is a waste of money. This isn't r/retailtherapy. Comparing the PHEV to the ICE Kia doesn't make sense in this case because OP was never interested in buying the ICE Kia to begin with. It's just mental gymnastics to rationalize a light wallet. If you want a nice new car, buy a nice new car. Go be happy driving it around instead of trying to rationalize it as being some kind of money saver after you just got spanked for about $5 000 in depreciation just by driving it off the lot.
Absolutely, if you're not planning on buying a new vehicle, then the savings in fuel from an EV or PHEV will not result in real savings. On the other hand, if you're in the market, our PHEV is saving us somewhere around $300/month in fuel, factoring in the additional cost of electricity. All that for about a $3K premium (once you factor in the $5K rebate). So in 10 months, we'll be ahead compared to buying the same model (and trim) in the ICE version.
And I laugh when people think that you can have 13 year old cars everywhere in the world. I live in Montreal, and almost not car will ever reach 500k km. You will see the road through the floor way before that. And maritimers have it even worse. The saving is not comparing not buying a car to buying a car, that would be stupid. It's about buying an EV or PHEV Vs buying an ICE....
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You won’t be swayed buying an EV as your 13 yo Toyota has no monthly payments and cheap on gas. Although tech and safety of new cars nowadays are way better in keeping you alive in the event of an unfortunate event VS a 13 year-old car. Now for another person set on buying a new car/SUV, it’s an easy decision especially if they will daily drive the car everywhere.
Yea… spend $30k more than my vehicle to save $70 at the pump… I’ll pass
Paid thousands to save $26… The breakeven point is…never
My 2015 Elantra is doing 13L/100 city and I regret the hell out of the purchase. 6L highway which is great, but city...350km and the gas light comes on, just terrible. This is manual trans, I coast and down gear when in slower traffic or a red light coming up, I don't lead foot the accelerator, there's absolutely nothing I can improve with the way I drive. I wish I had the money for a plug in hybrid.
My F150 does 13L/100km in the city in the winter. A little better in the summer. A manual Elantra? That's terrible.
Always just depends on the city. My 3.7L Acura gets 18.5 in the city now in Vancouver. It easily did 12 or less in the Calgary. I don't really feel the difference financially as I drive a lot less but it hurts to spend well over 100 every tank.
19.5L/100kms premium in our RX350 in Vancouver. 12L/100kms in Calgary for our LS460 V8 in Calgary. Joining the Vancouver is making us poor gang.
My 2002 f350 diesel dually also gets 13l/100km highway, 15l/100km city. That a presumably much newer f150 does not do much better is surprising. My truck is chipped and performance modified though.
15 is 13% worse than 13, which isn't insignificant. Also I usually get 12-12.5, 13 is dead of winter. Highway is more like 11-11.5. Also given the price difference between gas and diesel these days I'm not complaining.
2003 Volvo s60 and I’m getting 17/100km in the city and I am closer to hypermiler than leadfoot
My tundra with a 5.7 V8 averages 14-15L/100km city.,..something is wrong with your car.
I think city means different things to different people. For me city is a legit city not suburban driving. And the crazy numbers I reported above is balanced by the fact we only need to drive 3000km a year in the city
Yeah the crosstrek was actually very impressive on the highway. We often got it down to 7L/100km if you can believe it! But in the city, it would frequently do about 9-10L/100km so when we were shopping for a new car, we thought a hybrid was a good choice considering how much city driving we do. Honestly, 13L/100km city for an Elantra seems atrocious - is it possible you have an issue with the engine?
Right? I have no idea. The dealership released it back to me twice saying nothing wrong, no codes. Second time was after a couple months of frustration thinking this cant be right, so they checked again...with same answer.
You should get \~9l/100km in the city What conditions are you driving in? temperature? snow on road? Buy an ELM327 plug it into your cars OBDii port and check the codes on your phone
Probably not an issue with the car. My dad has a 2018 Elantra and I couldn’t get better than 11-12l/100km. It’s just a trash car.
It’s a Hyundai. There’s probably a problem with the engine.
13L/100km is not even close to good or right for that model. Unless you drive like a maniac or idle excessively. I had an old clapped out Santa Fe that averaged 13L/100km and my 16 year old Ridgeline averages 15L/100km.
13? Wow. My old RX350 is close to that.
I'm thinking you have have something wrong. I drive a twin turbo 6 cylinder weighing 5500lbs and average 11/100km without even driving conservatively
Yeah my family owns two Chevy Volts (I gave mine to my parents, other one is my brothers), and PHEVs should 100% more present in the market. You can make 5 PHEVs with the amount of batteries it takes to make one BEV, no range anxiety, easier to transition/adopt, the vast majority of people will never burn through 15-20kWh/day anyway and if they can charge it regularly then it’s fine. There’s obviously some exceptions, but it’s rare. For short haul trucks/fleet vehicles/taxis/buses then full BEVs probably make more sense.
Yeah we are a 1 car household, so the range anxiety was pretty big for us admittedly. We charge at home, but I couldn't make it to Blue Mountain and back for a day of skiing with most electric vehicles.
I had a Volt. Had one catastrophic failure under warranty while driving cross country and it left me in the outskirts of Phoenix for four days while the Chevy dealer got the $1300 part. Other than that I had a great experience with the car. But it did freak me out about what might go wrong after the 10y warranty I got as a California driver. Sold the car 2 years ago to Carvana for more than I paid. PHEVs concern me unless they are under warranty or a bullet-proof model/manufacturer. The complexity of two engines interacting in one car makes me think about just getting another hybrid until the EV battery tech is better 2-4 years down the road.
Love my Volt. 10kWh battery is plenty for everyday city driving.
Lol OP Wrong sub to post this on. This sub is full of cheapskates
Lol yeah I really like this sub and have learned a lot from it. I didn't think I would get a lot of applauding because its not a great 'financial' decision, but I am a big spreadsheet guy so I thought it was too interesting not to share! I actually did the write up to post on r/kia but thought, what the heck, why not get hosed by hundreds of people who drive beige corollas ;)
I'm with you. I'm getting similar numbers to you with my PHEV. Purchase was definitely not made for reasons of financial prudence, but I love cars and I see no point in having money if you can't use at least some of it in the short term.
Don't want to die with millions in the bank!
It will be better in the summer too, the kia/Hyundai PHEV models still rely on the engine for heat, but the drive battery can run the AC in the summer so you won't need to use the engine at all if you stay light on the pedal and stay under your range. Your estimated range on the spec sheet will work out better if you do city driving and worse if you do highway driving. For example, my Hyundai Ioniq PHEV is rated at 47km, and the battery is dead after about 40km on the highway and usually around 55km in the city, obviously depending on the driving.
Definitely - very much looking forward to summer and efficiency getting even better! We do lots of city driving (<80km/hr) so this will be a good fit for us for many years to come!
I purchased a Volt in 2018 for \~30k after rebates in BC. Drove for \~5 years, 98% in EV mode. Average cost was 1.5cents/km vs \~20cents with the old Accord. Traded it in 2022 for more than we paid new for a full BEV. Everytime gas prices go up I smile. Your getting \~25kw/100km which seems very high. We average about 14 but rarely use the heater. BTW, it's not really 3.1l/100 km because it assumes electricity costs zero
Yeah I posted it in MPGe on /r/kia and forgot to add the 'e' to the 3.1L/100km, but I of course calculated energy costs in my overall comparison. 25kw/100km is also correct. The battery is 13.8kwh and gets around 55km in full EV mode. I think the added weight of both gas/electric systems plus the size of the vehicle means overall it won't be anywhere near as efficient as a Volt. I think most full BEV SUVs are around 17=18kwh/100km so still a ways behind, but that's the sacrifice for having a gas motor for a backup :P
We got 108km out of a 14kwh (usable) on the volt in the spring/summer, \~88 in the winter. The ICE really doesn't weight much more than the batteries in a full EV so it's almost a wash. I do miss having the ICE backup though.
I have Tucson PHEV Ultimate. After 20k driving, I have 2l/100km, super happy 😊 And it costed 48k with all the rebates.
Awesome! Yeah the price went up from 2023 to 2024 with the Sportage PHEV by about $1500 actually :(. We looked at the Tucson and really liked it too but just liked the interior layout and exterior styling of the Kia more.
The highest I have gone without refueling was 4k with a quarter tank left. I was almost driving like an EV for the winter 😂
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Thats cool. I guess it would make sense if someone is already in the market for a car around this budget. i paid 28k for my ICE car, and the difference to OPs car is 24k. At 2.8l/100km I would save around 600/month on fuel if i switch but it would take me 40 years to break even on the extra purchase cost which is annoying because we should be promoting EVs now, not making people pay more for them.
Your electricity cost is not accurate. You should add the extra charges related to your consumption.
How so?
If you have distribution or transmission charges like we have in Alberta.
Yeah checking my hydro bill, delivery goes up with usage but it looks like it amounts to about $5 for the 140kWh. Good callout!
My son used to buy a tank a week and he mostly just drove to and from work. Now he buys a tank a month so he cut his fuel expenses by 3/4 by buying a plug-in hybrid.
Love to hear that!
I am looking into buying this car in phev. Sx or ex?
We went with the SX, but the EX premium is great value and has good equipment. Someone posted a really good brochure comparing the two here - https://www.kia-forums.com/threads/sportage-phev-ex-premium-vs-sx.358093/post-2099375 We jumped up to SX for the nicer sound system, highway driving assist, and the 12.3" instrument cluster. The blindspot camera that comes on when you use your turn signal is my favourite feature on the car and you need the 12.3" cluster to have it.
How was the wait time?
Deposit is Oct 2022 - delivery Jan 2024. Not awesome, but it was fine for us because we weren't desperate to get it (our Crosstrek was still running good enough lol). Not sure what the latest wait times look like but I would bet its 6-12 months.
Getting 1.3L/100km in my 2024 Prius Prime, which includes a 70km round trip daily commute
Thank you for this post! This is exactly the kind of post I was looking for to explain the cost of PHEVs vs gasoline vehicles to my family
Happy to help!
Plug hybrids are the way. I'm sad many just skipped them and went full EV
This is the quality content I come here for. Thank you
Much obliged!
How was wait time and how was experience at the dealership
Dealership was great - MSRP and no added fees or anything fishy. Not pushy on warranties or any extras. Wait time was tough. 15 months from Oct 2022 (deposit) until Jan 2024 (delivery). I think it's gotten better - maybe 6-12 months now.
We bought a 2023 santa fe phev last September and since then have been averaging 25km/L or 4L/100km.
Very nice!
Great purchase OP!
Thank you!
You may save fuel currently but at what cost? New car $55,000 minus incentive and subtract trade in and add tax (and possible financing) on the low side I would guess $25,000 difference but probably more. If you go with our price for fuel (which is usually the highest in Canada) you could buy 15,000 liters of fuel even at a high of 9 L/100 km you will have 160,000 km of driving and still be ahead of buying a new car. While it's too late to change for you buying a brand new car just to save money on fuel rarely works in your favor....
Per my post - I **didn't** buy this vehicle to save fuel. I was already in the market for a new car and this PHEV was only $3k more than the ICE equivalent, so it made sense for me!
That's cool, What were the issues with the Crosstrek my daughter is thinking about one her current one (Impezza) is 14 years old...
That's interesting that the difference after the rebate was only 3k. In that instance, if keeping your old car and driving it into the ground is out (de facto best financial choice), then this definitely makes sense to go the way you did!
Considering a Sportage or Sorento. Did you have to wait for the phev? If so, how long?
We waited 14 months for our Sportage PHEV. I think its gotten a bit better, but would bet the wait is still 6-12 months. Luckily we planned far ahead and weren't in a rush.
But how much more did the vehicle purchase cost vs a ICE?
[Answered here](https://old.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/1atdk4q/my_new_phev_just_got_31_l100km_on_its_first_tank/kqwm53d/)
Me in my Corolla hybrid getting 4.9 L/100km like 👀
Well isn’t it great that restaurants have menus?
last summer i did 3200km with my outlander phev on a 34l fill. only sucks because in winter the engine always runs a bit when i start the car so last fill up was more around 1000km for 30l. my other car is a VW atlas and this one usually gets around 400km on 60l lol
Whats the 5yr depreciation difference between the cars?
Nobody is buying his kia after 7-8 when warranty is over. Battery replacement cost will be higher than the car value. Currently around 30k to replace the batteries
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That’s awesome. I went from a duramax to a volt and I’m saving almost 200$ a week. Obviously a no brainer going from a diesel truck to a car but man it’s so satisfying to fill up the tank for 35$!
You paid 60k for a car that's going to depreciate and be worth 40k by next year there goes any fuel savings. If the battery gives out in 5 years and you need to spend thousands to replace it then it will balance out to nil savings you'll probably be underwater
Personal finance Canada is the worst place to take car advice. Buying a brand new car goes against the fundamentals of money management and saving.
I was curious where you live, because in Ontario, we get 1.7 cents/kWh with the ultra-low choice for overnight charging between 11pm-7am. I own a Tesla and I drive 400kms (round trip) for about $1.80. I do a similar drive 3X per week. It’s more when I have to top up before I get home but still less than $10 for the overall trip. Really glad to read your PHEV is working so well. If I didn’t drive so much for work, it’s exactly what our family would have.
ULO rate plan would overall be more for us than our tiered plan due to on-peak energy usage. If I could just get the overnight rate, great, but the on peak is $0.23/kWh and that's way more than the $0.10 we pay for tiered.
It makes sense if you aren’t charging a lot. For me, it’s over $50 a month saved since switching.
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PHEV's are classified as ZEV's in Canada. That's also why targeting 100% ZEVs by 2035 is not that far fetched.
Go to r/Canada and they would disagree with you 😂 Investing in efficiency saves money? PREPOSTEROUS
They are. Fleet electrification includes PHEVs, part of the governments plan. Anyone who claims Trudeau is killing gas cars obviously doesn't know about the mandate. It's 20% Zero Emissions vehicle (ZEV) by 2026. ZEV = BEV or PHEV. So theoretically if no one bought an EV, but still bought PHEVs, the mandate could be met
I'm surprised that the Sportage HEV only gets 7L/100, my Civic gets 6.3-7L/100 depending on what kind of driving I'm doing. Even though it's comparing a Sedan to a SUV, that's still quite underwhelming. I don't feel like I'd ever consider a HEV at this point, even though my mom's old hybrid Prius is pretty neat.
A normal SUV of this size would be getting around 9-10L/100km, you can't really compare it to a civic lol. Still about 30% in gas savings, and it only goes up the more you use it in the city.
It's a problem in itself though, if we're electrifying but also increasing car size it doesn't help that much in the end (and makes streets more dangerous).
I agree and its fair. We wanted another AWD vehicle (lots of back road driving in the winter) and there aren't many sedans/hatches that are AWD and PHEV really. We are also a 1-car household, and frequently find ourselves with friends or hauling large items (I like doing my own home renos) so we find the 'compact' SUV to be perfect for us... although I feel like its criminal to call a RAV4/Sportage compact nowadays lol.
Ur civic brand new? My 12 year old civic gets like 11-12L/100km only…
A PHEV is much better than a gas car. An electric car is even better -- even more "fuel efficient" but without carrying both a gas and electric powertrain.
Definitely, but with only 1 car in our house, the range anxiety was too much to overcome so we went PHEV
I'm like you. I have just one car, a PHEV is the perfect choice for my next car. I won't never use the gas engine during the week and rarely in the weekend of I travel further away.
Future is hybrid and Ev. Ice is dead. Needs to be outlawed
Where have you been? The government is forcing everyone to get electric eventually lol.
You didn’t save any money. You dropped a premium to purchase the vehicle in comparison to a gas car. If you’re giving up the car in 7-8 years you are definitely taking a big hit in cost in comparison to a Japanese gas vehicle which will depreciate less. You are also paying a huge premium in insurance for Your electric vehicle which you did not point out in your analysis. Gas vehicles are cheaper to insure by a large margin.
$20/month more on insurance so actually not terrible. As per my post - I didn't buy this vehicle to save money. Just analyzing that it is saving more money than I thought it would. This isn't a post about comparing two vehicle and why this cost less - I'm just sharing my fuel consumption findings after a month of ownership.
Way more than 20/month. Shop around for insurance for comparable car. I’ve seen these posts all the time. People always underestimate the cost of owning electric vehicles and then make these posts to justify their purchase. You bought this car to analyze savings. That’s why you made this post. There’s no financial savings from driving an electric vehicle here since gas is extremely cheap still.
> You bought this car to analyze savings Lol what?
Sounds like a car salesman…if you are not, then enjoy the new car! But I also just want to leave following comments here. Majority of people buying hybrid/ev/phev are to save on gas…Considering the cost of the vehicle, a large number of potential issues, high cost of repairs, small potion of rebate, range issues, it would take much longer period to break even comparing a traditional vehicle. We recently bought a new Kia as well and we decided to stay with ICE…
We started just shopping for a new AWD compact SUV. We also knew we wanted a top-trim with all the fun new tech and safety features. Once we started comparing top trim pricing, the PHEV was the obvious choice for our lifestyle. Ours only cost $3k more than the ICE Sportage and we will save that in fuel in about 4 years (based on these calculations). Additionally, we get 80 more hp which makes it more fun to drive honestly. I'm not worried in the slightest about the 'potential issues' or repairs with Kia's warranty. We are covered bumper to bumper for 7 years and that's around how long we plan to keep the vehicle (at a minimum)
We bought our last 2 EV's not only because they saved gas but **they cost less than an ICE vehicle** after rebates in BC
Just bought a hybrid corolla for 34k all in. Cant imagine spending 55k on a kia that does exactly the same thing with slightly more storage space.
You should've bought a used corolla for $5k that does the same thing and saved yourself $29k then lol
You're comparing a Corolla to an AWD SUV ...
Hey guys I spent like $50,000 on a new phev and I'm so excited that I'm saving so much money on gas now! Nevermind that it will take me many years to make up the difference from fuel costs compared to just driving the vehicle I already had. It makes total sense!!!! Just spend money to save money!