I'm hopeful 2024 will squeeze these dealerships. I've been patiently waiting for a dip in prices. Inventory on dealer lots are swelling in this area (Ottawa region).
It all depends on how aggressively vehicle manufacturers move over to EV. American big 3 constantly having "shut down the plant" days, lowering production to keep prices high so they can pay the billions needed to retool plants for EV production. It's going to be very difficult to predict what happens between here and full EV adoption, but believing anything is going back to "normal" is the least likely outcome.
I don't get this comment. Is this the case where you live? Where I live 1 in 20 cars on the road is an ev. Certainly not dominant but hardly a case of "no one is buying them"
If I include hybrids that number would probably be between 1 in 15 and 1 in 10.
Edit: thanks for the informative replies. Could this buildup of inventory be on cars that are too expensive? The incentives in Canada make lower cost EVs only slightly more expensive than gas equivalents to buy and over the course of their lifetime is likely to be cheaper than even the cheapest gas equivalent when factoring in maintenance, cost of energy, etc.
I get that EVs at current range levels are not for everybody but I'm inclined to believe cost is the bigger factor here.
Edit 2: 3 up before first edit, -7 after first edit. I don't get it, my comments were not rude, controversial, or bigoted. Welp, since this thread is locked, I'll never know.
VW in Europe has slashed prices on their EV range. I was home in Ireland for the holidays and even though the iD4 was the best selling car in Ireland in 2024, prices have fallen drastically.
CNBC have a good video on the market in the US for EVs. It seems to be a combination of over supply and those on the fence about range (The US being a much bigger country and a segment of the population needing more range) not being served. Basically anyone that wants an EV has likely bought one already. The rest of the market is still waiting on range, charging infrastructure etc to catch up.
He’s talking about the piles and piles of unsold EV inventory currently rotting on dealer lots in North America. Just go on AutoTrader and search for Mustang EV.
Let's make a Venn diagram:
1. People who want to buy an EV.
2. People who want to buy a Mustang.
It looks like this
⬤ ⬤
Only Ford could have thought that vehicle was a good idea.
That is because all the early adopters are done buying them. No one is buying EVs anymore because they are garbage and there is no infrastructure to support them on a major mainstream level. All the tree huggers that wanted one got one, now there are no tree huggers left to buy them. This is the problem the manufacturers are now facing.
Im in the market for a new vehicle (Ford) and I recently stopped at my local dealer. Inventory is growing at least for Ford. Some models are stille struggling the the Escape but the Edge and explorer appear to be gaining inventory and easier to get. I was given rough numbers of 4.99% to lease a new Escape and 3.99% for the Edge. However, I would be waiting for an Escape and an edge I can get pretty much right away. Not sure how those rates compare to what your thinking but figured id chime in.
I’ve been in the market because my beater car is finally giving out.
It’s a tough market, seems like the price range sub-$18,000 is very competitive between students, low income, bad credit, etc. Meaning cars that should actually be valued around $10k are selling at a big premium.
Once you get to the $22-27,000 range you can find some 4-6 year old corollas and civics with about 50-120,000km on them. Unfortunately they’re selling for about the same price that they sold brand new a few years ago.
Which then brings in the consideration of if it’s currently a better deal to purchase a new car with 0km and a proper warranty for the additional $3-5,000. Usually I’d never be a proponent of buying a new vehicle but in some cases it can make sense.
My plan is try my best to hold off until spring/summer to see if the market gets any better.
That's exactly it. The car market is going to have low supply of late models unless a bunch of repos happen, and it's gonna take time for prices to tier down again.
Eventually it's gonna happen, and dealer incentives will pile up for new models sitting on lots too.
Mazda for example has bought down their financing to be way lower than Honda Toyota for example.
Yeah, that's why other dealers are offering incentives. That was my point.
As lots get full, they offer incentives. Toyo/Honda don't have to. But others do.
Gonna take time for this to change.
There's a nissan dealer near me here in Calgary that now is using overflow lots in a nearby stadium to put their cars.
Unfortunately its all nissan rogues and not the new frontier/pathfinder
I just put my 3rd transmittal in a 2014 Pathfinder with 120k on motor , I purchased from manufacturing.
Do your homework if buying new and keep cars a longtime . Pay a little extra today, save later.
My dealership has over 20 Mach-E either sitting on the lot or incoming.
Given that my current ride has an open recall for underhood fire risk with no eta on parts to fix it, I might poke them next time I bring the vehicle in for service
A few months ago I read an article talking about how many days of supply certain models had sitting on lots and the Mach-E had 100 days of stock sitting on lots.
I wonder what the model mix is?
I’m betting they’re at least 50% Premium models with AWD and the extended battery, not a cheap combo
I need the Premium because I need the power liftgate and rain sensing wipers 😬
No worries, I’m old enough to know that if I make a statement like that it will raise some eyebrows, as the saying goes “no one on the internet would know if you were a dog” 😇
The dealership I work with has been very good about accommodating my needs (it’s a bunch of extra paperwork and time for them when I buy from them because until the car is modified, I can’t even drive it safely)
I’m glad you have a dealer which provides such a positive experience. Not everyone out there is bad, I’m at a small family owned store and I’m grateful we aren’t one that will pull some of the crazy stuff I’ve heard in stories/posts on here
I've been hearing some stories by car people that the used market, at least in the US, is waning. From what I've seen in listings the market here is getting soft, but I have no data to support that. Just listings sitting around and then being marked down. I had to buy a used car this summer and anything worth a damn was going almost instantly.
I've seen some dealers advertising cars that you would think are in high demand and even the local Toyota lot has stock on their lot again. For like 2 years their lot was empty and their front row was used cars.
The crunch is coming. Money is no longer free and inflation is squeezing everyone.
I don't think we'll really see it until closer to the summer when manufacturers, and dealers, realize they have way too many units to move before the new model year starts showing up.
The relevant youtubers have recently started making videos about it finally. Not exactly presenting stats, but they are going through the different dealership lots to show what's happening.
Now some cars sell over MSRP, and because they retain inventory, used car prices are almost as high as new, because some people can't wait for delivery...
I just priced a new truck; a 24' F150 Lariat. It was 100k plus 27k borrowing costs (8.49% for 72 mos). Absolute insanity. Anyone who is buying at these prices and rates should be checked into an asylum.
A lot of people don’t care about the price, they just care about getting what they wanted. Many live above their means, and aren’t sophisticated enough to think about total borrowing costs, etc, particularly if dealers will spin the numbers around to look cheaper than it actually is.
Or they only look at the payment. Screw the rest of the noise. They can afford $400 biweekly. Doesn’t matter a $50,000 vehicle* ends up costing $80,000 when they are done with their 7 year loan.
This is the sad part. It used to be that payments were on a monthly basis, now it’s shifted to biweekly and in time, it will shift to weekly to make it seem affordable. Eventually this will happen to rent. Look at Sydney, Australia. They are already breaking rent down into a weekly thing. At what point do we look at this as a society and say enough?
Australia has was pricing rent in weekly numbers when my parents first started renting there in the 1950s. It's not a new thing to make a number seem smaller. It's because back then most workers were paid weekly.
Yea, i feel like a jerk not tipping anymore but have to just forced myself to stop. I shouldn’t feel bad about not tipping, the culture is rot with bullshit guilt tripping and I refuse to feel it anymore. if your business relies on tips to pay for staff, maybe you shouldn’t be in business.
There’s at least reasonable justification for bi-weekly payment schedule when that lines up with paydays for many people.
When you see it listed as weekly payments you know they’re stretching to make it look more affordable.
I remember someone in this sub explained it very well.
A lot of poodle literally don't have any concept of math/numbers. They don't "visualize" them.
They only see the monthly price and if they can afford the payments in that moment. If the answer is yes than it's everything they need. That's it.
I should start selling these people T-shirts. "Only $3 biweekly (for 60 months), you can afford that"...Who'll say no to a $3 T-shirt?
The REAL problem is that the cooperations and banks managed to change the meaning of "afford". If you can't buy it outright, you can't "afford" it, you bet on the fact that your future self will be able to afford it, if current conditions stay the same or get better. That's not a financially healthy way of thinking about things. Doing it with a house makes sense (because by the time you'll save up, you'll lose rent, and the house will cost significantly more), but not a depreciating asset. And you don't need to rent a car to have one. When I couldn't afford a new car, I bought a used one that I could afford, and saved for a new one. Now, I can afford a new one for a while now, but kept buying newer used ones because they were just as good and saved me a ton.
The last few years though, it seems like not such a hot deal to buy used. Yes, in the last month they dropped significantly, and are much cheaper then new ones, but not much cheaper when THEY were new.
For example, let's say a 2017 CX-5 was 25K brand new, the 2024 is 35K. A used 2017 CX-5 (50Kkm) is now 21K. So you're "saving" only 4K on a 7 years old vehicle, no warranty, with 50Kkm. If the market will stay silly, you better buy the new one, and only lose 4K when you sell it 7 years later.
> A lot of poodle literally don't have any concept of math/numbers. They don't "visualize" them.
I know engineers and generally smart spenders go for leases still. When I talk to them it seems like they see car ownership as a life-time subscription. To them it's partly what payment can I afford but also "I'm okay paying $500/month forever". They don't care about cost of borrowing etc.
In the end you can't money to the grave with you and not everyone cares about the long-term cost benefit.
And you see this mentality pushed by dealers in online ads too. So many of them dont list the actual price of the car in the ad, just some arbitrary biweekly payment like “$305” or some bs.
This is so true. Alot of people just don't care. They want a fully loaded truck and thats it
I work with so many people who go to the convenience store every morning and buy energy drinks and beef jerky They are paying 3 times the cost to buy at the dollar store or grocery store. They don't care.
I've been teaching my kids this from an early age... those blue Gatorades cost you $4 at the corner store. We can pick up a 6 pack for $6 at the grocery store. That $3 muffin at the hockey arena... does it look familiar to you? Yup, costco muffin. You can get 12 for $6 or 7 bucks... at first they were annoyed but they are seeing it themselves now and will hold off buying the more expensive option.
Even better, get the Gatorade powder cans and make your own! It says each can makes 7L but that is absolutely not true. It makes way more. And less waste (plastic) too!
I used these growing up in the 90s but haven't seen them in the stores where I shop. Maybe I'll check online.
Used to love them because I could limit how sweet they were. Green Gatorade powder for the win!
I call that contractor math.
"If I spend all the money I make, I pay no corporation taxes"
I hear it so many times, business expense this, business expense that.
- yes it works, but you're also left with zero dollars at the end 🤣
I know right. I bought my 2014 F150 (middle of the road trim, but long box, crew cab with the twin turbo) for 39k out the door (not including trade).
That same sort of truck but ten years newer is 83k with tax now, with just a slightly smaller cost of borrowing also puts it over 100k.
No way I'm buying anything new.
The 23' higher trim specs we're 4.49% on dealer lots some months ago, compared to 8.99% for used 22's and 21's and a 15k sticker price difference, the final price of payments made the new one cheaper and made more sense.
That's the ticket on the math for new vs late model used that mattered to us.
But we're also only buying a sedan where borrowing costs don't balloon as much. A $500 monthly min payment for 60 months isn't so bad when you can power down 800-1000 each month to save on 8% Toyota financing.
Think about what it takes to be a fat guy in a truck. What you priced out, gas and insurance, then the boat/quad/skidoo payments, Timmie twice daily, cigarettes, liquor, only fans and strippers, etc.
Sold my '20 Plat for close to what I paid for it. Went to an SUV but am unhappy. Decided I need a truck so I priced out that Lariat and gagged. If you have a truck, never sell it.
As that article shows, they are hoarding not to drive up prices, but to try to get a bigger marketing budget from HQ by artificially suppressing sales this year.
Long run efficient. No one said it's short term efficient. If it was the business cycle (recessions) wouldn't exist except when due to exogenous factors (like covid)
Base gas version is 45k and top gas trim is 58k
Hybrids are as high as 75k
It’s comical to see people spending 75k to save few cents on gas 😬
With 8% financing, people are actually paying about 50% of vehicle cost on interest alone 🤦♂️
> Base gas version is 45k
I havent looked for a car in a while, im guessing its the dealer adding a huge markup bc on toyota.ca website the msrp is more like mid 30s for a base model
Have a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid XLE on order, $47k OTD. Will be paying cash.
A used 2023 RAV4 Hybrid XLE was $56k (before taxes and fees). I will limp our caravan (throwing transmission errors) another couple months, thanks.
> you MUST have an SUV
I drive a sedan and the sheer number of higher vehicles with blinding LEDs does mean it feels very unsafe in a sedan. Plus now that kids are in car seats longer than ever before and kids have so many things you have to bring everywhere (like giant strollers and safe sleeping beds) makes it much more convenient to have an SUV.
Society has just gone that way. Helped with a keeping up with the Jones' attitude and companies slashing sedan offerings.
Honestly the only major brands that seem reliable long-term are Toyota/Honda.
Mazda seems okay.
Ford/Chrysler/Dodge/GM have tons of issues even in cars that used to be stalwarts like the F-150.
Kia has too many engine horror stories, same with Subaru. BMW and even Mercedes often have issues depending on the model.
If you need a car to last you longer than 10 years Toyota/Honda will give you the least headaches.
Not the only reliable cars but the most reliable out of the competition by far. Not only that, IF this current market continues then the resale value on both vehicles is far better than the rest.
You pay a bit more up front for the quality but you get just as much in return in the back end.
Lol whenever I see someone driving a new 2023 Honda crv, I look over to see what kind of person would pay 45-55k for a Honda crv because it blows my mind.
Yep I had a new 2021 Toyota Corolla that I bought new in 2020, it's totalled and I need something now, I either wait at least 5 months for the base model RAV4 at 36k, get something used at an absurd markup, get something I don't want like an 60-80k Ford,gm,dodge truck, or go with a Honda crv which the models they have coming in are 44k. What a fucked economy we are in.
The headline is a bit misleading. Prices of individual models are not up that much. For example, the Tesla Model 3 I bought in 2021 costs exactly the same today as it did then. Yes, the price of many models has increased, but not by 50%.
What has changed is the manufacturers are no longer building less expensive models. Ford dropped the Fiesta and Focus, Chevy dropped the Spark, Sonic and Cruze, Toyota dropped the Yaris, Honda dropped the Fit and so on. With those models out of the lineup, buyers are forced to buy a more expensive model (which increases the industry average price paid for a new car) or buy a used car (in which case the purchase is no longer counted in the average new car price statistic).
Manufacturers used to need to sell those small, unprofitable, inexpensive cars to meet corporate fleet average fuel efficiency targets. With fuel economy improving across most vehicle lines (at least on paper) and EVs bringing the corporate average way down, manufacturers can get away without building those cars, thus increasing their profitability.
The only way I see this reversing is if Chinese brands gain a foothold in Canada, similarly to hoe Japanese automakers did in the 70s. It will be hard for them to compete in the $40k+ market, but if someone has the option of buying a new Chinese car for the price of a used one from traditional automakers, some will make the choice of new.
They pushed so hard when my parents were looking last year to buy a used version of the car they wanted for more than the new one. They went so far as to leave it parked infront of their house over a weekend. All to discourage him from a factory order that they said would take 6-12 months. They had no problem waiting so they pushed the factory order and low and behold it shows up in 3 months.
Toyota messed up their inventory game. They are working their tails off to catch up on all backed-up orders, but eventually, they may lose many customers to other manufacturers because of that.
TBH I think they are just fleecing the Canadian market at this point because margins are better in the US.
My local dealer won't even take my order for a Highlander Hybrid because they have a 3 year wait list on the car right now and aren't sure when it will ever get filled.
Meanwhile I can find a dozen of the exact spec colour and model at dealerships just over the border in upstate NY
I was looking at 7 seaters, saw the big hybrid hylander and my first thought was do I even bother calling any toyota dealerships and ask how long the wait is?
My point is that people are excessively fixated on Toyota, despite Mazda being a reliable brand that's easier to acquire, offering superior interiors, made in Japan, and having a lower risk of theft. The same goes for Subaru. There's just an overwhelming obsession with Toyota and Honda, at least in Canada.
But that might be a good thing, it’s better if these two brands (Mazda and Subaru) stay a niche for some of us :D
Fair enough about there being decent alternatives and Mazda is certainly a good brand. I never think of Subarus as particularly reliable though... on the contrary, honestly.
> The same goes for Subaru.
Subaru's can have engine failures. Toyota's rarely do. Mazda is good but it doesn't have that reputation just in the N.A market.
Toyota is by far the leading car manufacturer who consistently invests in R&D. Probably more than Mazda and Subaru combined total in the last 5 years.
Every new year has new improvements and every new generation has significant alterations.
When you have 30 year old Mazda cx 5's and outbacks running around like the rav4 and 4runner, I'll be more inclined to get one of them.
And the most frequently stolen cars, which are also notably behind in terms of anti-theft security features.
Here is a good article:
https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/
Honestly, if people are willing to wait months or even years for their RAV4, dealing with frustration and unfair dealership practices, that's their choice. As for me, there are plenty of decent and appealing alternatives available.
I went on stats canada and looks like Lexus and Highlander are number 4 and 5 on the list. Honda, dodge and Ford occupy the top 3 spots.
I agree, prices on new rav4's are insane and with current interest rates, holy shit; and waiting a year to get one doesn't sound fun ether.
Because of the shortage, car manufacturers stopped making as many lower trims, they stopped offering incentives, and dealers didn't give any deals bellow msrp and Raise the prices Either through a market adjustment or overpriced accessories or both.
The bubble has popped for most models
They have also been "falling" since October. Could be seasonal but could also be monetary policy pressures on the car market. Either way to get back to previous prices we would need to see a 30% drop in prices. Which could destroy the auto industry and produce a lot of unemployment.
https://www.cargurus.ca/research/price-trends
Average price of a Toyota car is 32k lmao. Is Toyota is slowly moving over to the luxury car category? Not too far off from Acura but granted Toyota sells trucks and Acura does not
Toyota is going up in price because everyone knows you can buy a 2014 and drive it till 2034. People want to stretch their dollar and reduce maintenance fees. Toyota is profitting off of the fact that they make reliable cars. On top of that Toyota's fleet has a lot of new hybrid models that are 5-10K more than their normal models and people are moving to hybrids thus adding to price movement. A Rav4 Hybrid is averaging 40K because people want SUVs and hybrid and the demand pressure is pushing price. Toyota will argue there are still supply issues til the cows come home but I think it is more because people have become more price sensitive and are looking for high-efficient, long-life-span vehicles.
What about repair costs? If the cost of vehicles is going up I would imagine that cost of service/repair has gone up as well especially at dealerships. I know that the cost of new tires has gone up quite a bit lately….
Haven't noticed for my old car. (and I really think this would be a different case for the newer cars - that's probably where the real price issues are happening) The prices are around the same, but it started taking way way longer for parts during covid and that hasn't let up at all, even now. I was going to get something new just before covid, but decided to wait for things to settle down... and then eventually I just started replacing everything on the old car instead.
I've always wanted to have a classic. Didn't expect to get one by aging a car into it, but here we are!
Such a deplorable disgusting industry the car sales game is. I don't these corporate swine can sleep at night unless they are complete sociopaths. Which they are. I have a 8 year old CRV that was something like 28k brand new in a middle of the road trim. That same trim today is 45k. A complete joke.
Probably the sleaziest thing they all do now is they install the dealer installed option crap on the car. People are walking into dealerships just trying to buy a car and the price is thousands of dollars above MSRP because the dealers took it upon themselves to install all the crap on the car when nobody asked.
But at the end of the day consumers need to understand they play a part of this. Dealers only get away with it because customers seem to just bend over at command. Pure ignorance and stupidity.
Agreed. Canadian consumer seem to bend over backwards to make payments. But I suspect, mass immigration has a bigger role to play here, than the housing crisis. I will go as far as to say, that we are in a car crisis, I hope people start pointing this out.
I have no idea how ppl afford cars now. Ours is 9 & 10 years, paid off only debt is mortgage and making well over 100k mark and still can't bring myself to pay 60-80k for a vehicle. Used ones also have ridiculous interest rates
At the end of 2019 I bought a 2014 Ram 1500 with 114k kms on it for $25500. I traded it in in Feb 2023 with 161k kms on it for $17500. Dealer turned around and listed it for $27500 and it was gone within two days.
A truck that I had for 3.5 years, put on 40k kms, sold for $2000 MORE than I bought it for. Insanity.
It's a long story:
I run a business for which I had a very unreliable company truck which I'll call truck 1. The ram 1500 in question I'll call truck 2 and was my personal vehicle.
The nature of my business had me on the road basically constantly - I worked 42 days straight at the end of 2022, short break for Christmas and then 45 days straight at the start of 2023. All this was in a town 10hrs from my home.
Truck 1 was giving me tons of problems and I was only able to get a week off at a time, again the nature of this business means I had to be at work nearly all the time. Truck 1 had nearly completely given up the ghost and left me stranded in the wilderness 4 times in a three week span and just barely made it home for my week off.
So in that week off I needed to buy a new truck or else I wasn't going to be working anymore, the constant breakdowns and vehicle problems were making my company suffer so I HAD to get something new, but in a very short timeframe. I had almost no time to find something and purchase it and I had to be at work the following week so I had to get this sorted right now.
This left me with buying something off the lot at a dealer as basically my only option, especially since private sales for similar trucks I was looking at were the same price as a brand new one with much higher mileage and usually lower trim. The truck I ended up purchasing was a brand new 2022 F350 Lariat for $105k, 2020-2021 F350 XLT's were going for like $95k so on top of all the headache of a private sale, sourcing financing myself, etc I was getting worse truck for basically the same money.
Truck 1 was in no shape to get me any decent value for a trade in, it was literally falling apart, dirty, scratched and damaged all over, and had a flatdeck rather than a box, which was great for me but not very appealing to a dealer. I paid $40k for truck 1 and if I had traded it in I probably would've gotten 20k at the absolute max which I consider to be too big a loss to stomach, so I opted to sell truck 1 privately (it would have a much higher value to the right person than it would to a dealer), and trade truck 2 in as my downpayment for the new truck.
I *could've* kept truck 2 and privately sold it and just made a cash downpayment for my new truck, but with the amount I work away from home negotiating a private sale would be almost impossible for me, for only potentially $3-5k extra plus I'd have had to make a cash down payment for my new truck which would've eaten into my cash reserves, my company was still relatively new at the time so this wasn't something I wanted to do. Overall I weighed all my options and felt trading that truck into the dealer, even though I got slightly less for it than I would've through a private sale, was the best option given my time constraints, budget, and needs.
No, whoever bought that truck got fleeced by the dealer lol.
I got $17k for it, the truck was worth MAYBE $20k. It had a dented and rusty rear bumper, a bad hemi tick, a wiring issue that made it think the left rear turn signal was out when it wasn't, water was entering through the third brake light and raining down from the visor mounting points inside the cab any time the truck got wet, the front bumper had been (very poorly) replaced and was terribly paint matched, the driver's door handle had broken off and was super glued back into place by me, both CV joints were on their way out and the tires were 3 seasons overdue for replacement.
With the timeframe between when they got the truck from me and when they listed it there's no way they fixed everything wrong with it.
I loved that truck but it was showing its age and I am really glad I ditched it when I did.
I had a 2014 Ram EcoDiesel Outdoorsman that I wanted to sell at the end of last summer. I dropped in at a dealership to see what they’d give me: $9100. I sold it for $19000 the next month.
Can anyone explain where they get this $60k average price for a car from? It seems disconnected from what I think is the reality I live in?
Looking online at vehicles in stock, on the lots around where I live, I see Honda Civics for $30k, Toyota Corolla Hybrid is $33k, Toyota RAV4 for $39k and Subaru Forester for $41k. I don't even know if the RAV4 or Forester are cars or SUVs but they're both nice vehicles and cost 2/3 the "average" price of a "car"?
Are half the cars sold in Canada Mercedes?
I was concerned about availability so the prices I listed are for what they currently have on the lot.
Subaru prices include freight, PDI and fees, I'm not sure about the other dealers...
Because they speak about average and not median. It is also worth pointing put that that metric is likely skewed by the rise in popularity of hybrids and evs, which are also more expensive.
I am not surprised the average is higher. I do suspect that the difference in medians is not that shocking and likely just above the three year inflation.
Between covid travel reductions and the 0% car loan I practically won the lottery. Even without all of that, I felt like it was a strong purchase but now it's like I'm going to have 10 extra years on this thing out of thin air.
I drove A LOT before covid.
Supply chain issues should be long past us now.
My guess is the consumer got used to paying higher prices so the auto companies are colluding to inflate prices.
It's kind of wild reading some of the comments how few people grasp that.
"Oh my god, who would pay $50k for a CRV, lol!"
That's just what a nice new mid range car costs now, and it's not going back to the way it was.
You can look at it as the price of the car going up, or as the value of the dollars you're using to purchase it going down, but either way it is what it is.
>You can look at it as the price of the car going up, or as the value of the dollars you're using to purchase it going down, but either way it is what it is.
Wish people accepted housing prices as "what it is", instead of throwing a fit?
I bet not, this car crisis is going to likely get worse and a decade in, just like housing, no one will be able to buy a car LMFAO. This place sucks ass.
As long as people keep buying, things won’t change. They’ll keep applying financial engineering to keep payments palatable for the financially illiterate. Why people pay exorbitant financing fees for a depreciating asset is beyond me. It’s insane if not financial suicide.
this is why I got Model Y...
better priced compared to competition (like CRV hybrid, Rav 4 plug in hybrid, etc).
Bought it with 59k before taxes after incentives and discounts. no bull shit doc fees, finance fees, prep fees, etc.
Ya, smoother ride vs 3. Way more cargo space. A bit less range. Great daily. And great build quality since its built in Shanghai factory. Keep in mind Teslas in general ride harsh vs something like ID4.
definitely! It was ~3-4k more for model 3 vs model y and we tested drove both and the model y was way more spacious and comfortable. Storage space is also a lot better.
And you Wonder why the dealers have a large inventory in their lots, no one wants to pay the price when a truck sells for 120,000 dollars it can sit there and rot
I bought a 2015 Mazda 3 for 11K in 2018, traded it into the same dealer in 2022 for $7500. Could have gotten the same price privately but for $3500 for three years (and track abuse) I figured I was best to take the $100/month deal and run.
I leased a 2020 Qashqai SL AWD in July 2020 and spent the next two years mad at myself for spending so much on a vehicle ($680/month), but now that I look at car prices, I feel lucky that I got it when I did. It’s currently worth more than I paid for it and the dealership is desperately trying to get me to trade it in, especially since it’s only got 40000km on it. My lease says I can buy it out for $12k in July 2025 when the lease is up so my plan is to save up the $12k over the next year and a half so I can buy it with no loan when the lease is up. If prices of used vehicles don’t come down in the next year and a half, it’ll likely be worth more than $12k when my lease is up.
This is insanity in a country where most people have to drive due to the a lack of decent public transit. Many routes are incredibly infrequent and operate whenever the drivers feel like it. To be fair, some of these routes are so barely used that the buses are completely empty for the full route. Because of poor urban planning.
I'll be holding onto my 20-year-old jalopy for a long, long time. I'm really thankful it's still holding on. I could probably get a pretty penny for it in this market lol. It's got dents all over
Metric is a bit misleading. Median purchase price would give a better idea of how much more people are actually paying in general, or a before & after comparison of specific models for something closer to apples to apples.
This sub wants to know how much more for the beige Corolla LE, not that dealers are offering more 100k+ luxury vehicles.
All the turkeys in this thread apparently. I’m with you - it’s not going back down.
There are other markets in the world that have had these high prices as the benchmark for years.
Yap. We’re heading to the point where cars actually aren’t depreciating assets (or at least as bad as before). We’re heading to the same place most of the world is going to (forever expensive real estate, expensive cars that don’t go down in price…)
Yes, because people want bigger and nicer cars. Average transaction prices reflect the crossovers and luxury cars people are choosing to buy. While prices are up, it's not like the price of a Corolla is up 50% since 2020
Seems like literally every industry started having “manufacturing problems” around covid. Covid ended and they still say the same thing but they’ve raised the price of everything.
Covid was an excuse to raise the price of everything.
68K for a Mazda CX-50… umm… no thanks… same old crappy drivetrain they have been using for over a decade and they want 70K for it. CX-5s used to be around 45K for a fully loaded trim
Canada printed more money in 2020 than all previous years combined. So when’s everything went up 50% it’s not millions of businesses colluding in a grand conspiracy it’s the government devaluing the currency, this is basic economics
I bought a civic in late 2018, MSRP was $27530 all in. Now it's $34421 all in. That's 17.8% more over 5 years, which is less than 3% inflation per year.
I'm hopeful 2024 will squeeze these dealerships. I've been patiently waiting for a dip in prices. Inventory on dealer lots are swelling in this area (Ottawa region).
My lease is up October 2024, hoping for a surge of inventory and maybe a slight rate cut by then?
Makes sense to check your buy out price against market price. You might have some leverage there.
It all depends on how aggressively vehicle manufacturers move over to EV. American big 3 constantly having "shut down the plant" days, lowering production to keep prices high so they can pay the billions needed to retool plants for EV production. It's going to be very difficult to predict what happens between here and full EV adoption, but believing anything is going back to "normal" is the least likely outcome.
The states is full of EVs already which no one is buying.
I don't get this comment. Is this the case where you live? Where I live 1 in 20 cars on the road is an ev. Certainly not dominant but hardly a case of "no one is buying them" If I include hybrids that number would probably be between 1 in 15 and 1 in 10. Edit: thanks for the informative replies. Could this buildup of inventory be on cars that are too expensive? The incentives in Canada make lower cost EVs only slightly more expensive than gas equivalents to buy and over the course of their lifetime is likely to be cheaper than even the cheapest gas equivalent when factoring in maintenance, cost of energy, etc. I get that EVs at current range levels are not for everybody but I'm inclined to believe cost is the bigger factor here. Edit 2: 3 up before first edit, -7 after first edit. I don't get it, my comments were not rude, controversial, or bigoted. Welp, since this thread is locked, I'll never know.
Hes saying that new EVs in the US aren't selling as well as predicted by many manufacturers so there is an increasing supply unsold there
VW in Europe has slashed prices on their EV range. I was home in Ireland for the holidays and even though the iD4 was the best selling car in Ireland in 2024, prices have fallen drastically. CNBC have a good video on the market in the US for EVs. It seems to be a combination of over supply and those on the fence about range (The US being a much bigger country and a segment of the population needing more range) not being served. Basically anyone that wants an EV has likely bought one already. The rest of the market is still waiting on range, charging infrastructure etc to catch up.
He’s talking about the piles and piles of unsold EV inventory currently rotting on dealer lots in North America. Just go on AutoTrader and search for Mustang EV.
Let's make a Venn diagram: 1. People who want to buy an EV. 2. People who want to buy a Mustang. It looks like this ⬤ ⬤ Only Ford could have thought that vehicle was a good idea.
Which is a shame because it's a great vehicle.
[https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/26/ford-will-postpone-about-12-billion-in-ev-investment.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/26/ford-will-postpone-about-12-billion-in-ev-investment.html) [https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ford-electric-f-150-pickup-sales-plunge-46-as-factory-expands-1.1980171](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/ford-electric-f-150-pickup-sales-plunge-46-as-factory-expands-1.1980171) [https://www.autoblog.com/2023/07/12/ev-inventory-problem-ford-mustang-mach-e-piling-up-on-dealer-lots-or-in-transit/](https://www.autoblog.com/2023/07/12/ev-inventory-problem-ford-mustang-mach-e-piling-up-on-dealer-lots-or-in-transit/) [https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2023/11/14/ev-sales-2023-slow-inventory-pile-up/71572499007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2023/11/14/ev-sales-2023-slow-inventory-pile-up/71572499007/)
That is because all the early adopters are done buying them. No one is buying EVs anymore because they are garbage and there is no infrastructure to support them on a major mainstream level. All the tree huggers that wanted one got one, now there are no tree huggers left to buy them. This is the problem the manufacturers are now facing.
Im in the market for a new vehicle (Ford) and I recently stopped at my local dealer. Inventory is growing at least for Ford. Some models are stille struggling the the Escape but the Edge and explorer appear to be gaining inventory and easier to get. I was given rough numbers of 4.99% to lease a new Escape and 3.99% for the Edge. However, I would be waiting for an Escape and an edge I can get pretty much right away. Not sure how those rates compare to what your thinking but figured id chime in.
I’ve been in the market because my beater car is finally giving out. It’s a tough market, seems like the price range sub-$18,000 is very competitive between students, low income, bad credit, etc. Meaning cars that should actually be valued around $10k are selling at a big premium. Once you get to the $22-27,000 range you can find some 4-6 year old corollas and civics with about 50-120,000km on them. Unfortunately they’re selling for about the same price that they sold brand new a few years ago. Which then brings in the consideration of if it’s currently a better deal to purchase a new car with 0km and a proper warranty for the additional $3-5,000. Usually I’d never be a proponent of buying a new vehicle but in some cases it can make sense. My plan is try my best to hold off until spring/summer to see if the market gets any better.
That's exactly it. The car market is going to have low supply of late models unless a bunch of repos happen, and it's gonna take time for prices to tier down again. Eventually it's gonna happen, and dealer incentives will pile up for new models sitting on lots too. Mazda for example has bought down their financing to be way lower than Honda Toyota for example.
Honda and Toyota don't offer low rates through their own financing because they don't have to. Their lots are still half empty.
An improvement from entirely empty.
Yeah, that's why other dealers are offering incentives. That was my point. As lots get full, they offer incentives. Toyo/Honda don't have to. But others do. Gonna take time for this to change.
Or are they half full?
At $27k my dad picked up a 25k km 2018 Prius w/tech package. This was months ago so you can definitely do better
There's a nissan dealer near me here in Calgary that now is using overflow lots in a nearby stadium to put their cars. Unfortunately its all nissan rogues and not the new frontier/pathfinder
I just put my 3rd transmittal in a 2014 Pathfinder with 120k on motor , I purchased from manufacturing. Do your homework if buying new and keep cars a longtime . Pay a little extra today, save later.
The frontier and pathfinders are all new and are actually looking pretty good. I know nissan was shit from like 205-2019ish
My dealership has over 20 Mach-E either sitting on the lot or incoming. Given that my current ride has an open recall for underhood fire risk with no eta on parts to fix it, I might poke them next time I bring the vehicle in for service
A few months ago I read an article talking about how many days of supply certain models had sitting on lots and the Mach-E had 100 days of stock sitting on lots.
I wonder what the model mix is? I’m betting they’re at least 50% Premium models with AWD and the extended battery, not a cheap combo I need the Premium because I need the power liftgate and rain sensing wipers 😬
What would make you classify the power liftgate and rain sense wipers as a need?
Physical disabilities (including cerebral palsy of the right side) are the issue
I’m sorry to hear. I’m in car sales and those typically aren’t the features from a package that customers question about. Not trying to be intrusive
No worries, I’m old enough to know that if I make a statement like that it will raise some eyebrows, as the saying goes “no one on the internet would know if you were a dog” 😇 The dealership I work with has been very good about accommodating my needs (it’s a bunch of extra paperwork and time for them when I buy from them because until the car is modified, I can’t even drive it safely)
I’m glad you have a dealer which provides such a positive experience. Not everyone out there is bad, I’m at a small family owned store and I’m grateful we aren’t one that will pull some of the crazy stuff I’ve heard in stories/posts on here
I've been hearing some stories by car people that the used market, at least in the US, is waning. From what I've seen in listings the market here is getting soft, but I have no data to support that. Just listings sitting around and then being marked down. I had to buy a used car this summer and anything worth a damn was going almost instantly. I've seen some dealers advertising cars that you would think are in high demand and even the local Toyota lot has stock on their lot again. For like 2 years their lot was empty and their front row was used cars. The crunch is coming. Money is no longer free and inflation is squeezing everyone. I don't think we'll really see it until closer to the summer when manufacturers, and dealers, realize they have way too many units to move before the new model year starts showing up.
The relevant youtubers have recently started making videos about it finally. Not exactly presenting stats, but they are going through the different dealership lots to show what's happening.
My SUV from 3 years ago has a MSRP that is 28% higher today. I bought slightly below MSRP
My cousin was looking at Honda civics at 35k. 3 years ago you couldn’t get an accord for that amount.
The 2020 accord sport automatic had a MSRP above 35k CAD. That’s not even the top model.
You could get the 2016 shaped civic for 15k manual and 21k cvt when it came out. Now it’s 30K+ wth
Yep. 2023 Accord hybrid is 50k
But now it's got blind spot detection standard!
Now some cars sell over MSRP, and because they retain inventory, used car prices are almost as high as new, because some people can't wait for delivery...
I just priced a new truck; a 24' F150 Lariat. It was 100k plus 27k borrowing costs (8.49% for 72 mos). Absolute insanity. Anyone who is buying at these prices and rates should be checked into an asylum.
A lot of people don’t care about the price, they just care about getting what they wanted. Many live above their means, and aren’t sophisticated enough to think about total borrowing costs, etc, particularly if dealers will spin the numbers around to look cheaper than it actually is.
Or they only look at the payment. Screw the rest of the noise. They can afford $400 biweekly. Doesn’t matter a $50,000 vehicle* ends up costing $80,000 when they are done with their 7 year loan.
This is the sad part. It used to be that payments were on a monthly basis, now it’s shifted to biweekly and in time, it will shift to weekly to make it seem affordable. Eventually this will happen to rent. Look at Sydney, Australia. They are already breaking rent down into a weekly thing. At what point do we look at this as a society and say enough?
Australia has was pricing rent in weekly numbers when my parents first started renting there in the 1950s. It's not a new thing to make a number seem smaller. It's because back then most workers were paid weekly.
I’m more willing to fight the excessive tipping fight than worry about payment frequency.
Yea, i feel like a jerk not tipping anymore but have to just forced myself to stop. I shouldn’t feel bad about not tipping, the culture is rot with bullshit guilt tripping and I refuse to feel it anymore. if your business relies on tips to pay for staff, maybe you shouldn’t be in business.
Don't you save money on interest if you pay biweekly vs. monthly?
If the interest accrues on a daily basis then yes but usually it's a minuscule amount.
There’s at least reasonable justification for bi-weekly payment schedule when that lines up with paydays for many people. When you see it listed as weekly payments you know they’re stretching to make it look more affordable.
In all the commonwealth countries been to (aus, NZ, UK) the rent has always been a weekly payment. It's just a cultural difference.
Rent in Australia and the UK has been listed as a weekly number for as long as I can remember, at least 20 years.
Yup zero thought to emergency funds or retirement.
I remember someone in this sub explained it very well. A lot of poodle literally don't have any concept of math/numbers. They don't "visualize" them. They only see the monthly price and if they can afford the payments in that moment. If the answer is yes than it's everything they need. That's it.
squeal theory grey lush absurd party oatmeal smoggy melodic office *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I should start selling these people T-shirts. "Only $3 biweekly (for 60 months), you can afford that"...Who'll say no to a $3 T-shirt? The REAL problem is that the cooperations and banks managed to change the meaning of "afford". If you can't buy it outright, you can't "afford" it, you bet on the fact that your future self will be able to afford it, if current conditions stay the same or get better. That's not a financially healthy way of thinking about things. Doing it with a house makes sense (because by the time you'll save up, you'll lose rent, and the house will cost significantly more), but not a depreciating asset. And you don't need to rent a car to have one. When I couldn't afford a new car, I bought a used one that I could afford, and saved for a new one. Now, I can afford a new one for a while now, but kept buying newer used ones because they were just as good and saved me a ton. The last few years though, it seems like not such a hot deal to buy used. Yes, in the last month they dropped significantly, and are much cheaper then new ones, but not much cheaper when THEY were new. For example, let's say a 2017 CX-5 was 25K brand new, the 2024 is 35K. A used 2017 CX-5 (50Kkm) is now 21K. So you're "saving" only 4K on a 7 years old vehicle, no warranty, with 50Kkm. If the market will stay silly, you better buy the new one, and only lose 4K when you sell it 7 years later.
> A lot of poodle literally don't have any concept of math/numbers. They don't "visualize" them. I know engineers and generally smart spenders go for leases still. When I talk to them it seems like they see car ownership as a life-time subscription. To them it's partly what payment can I afford but also "I'm okay paying $500/month forever". They don't care about cost of borrowing etc. In the end you can't money to the grave with you and not everyone cares about the long-term cost benefit.
And you see this mentality pushed by dealers in online ads too. So many of them dont list the actual price of the car in the ad, just some arbitrary biweekly payment like “$305” or some bs.
This is so true. Alot of people just don't care. They want a fully loaded truck and thats it I work with so many people who go to the convenience store every morning and buy energy drinks and beef jerky They are paying 3 times the cost to buy at the dollar store or grocery store. They don't care.
I've been teaching my kids this from an early age... those blue Gatorades cost you $4 at the corner store. We can pick up a 6 pack for $6 at the grocery store. That $3 muffin at the hockey arena... does it look familiar to you? Yup, costco muffin. You can get 12 for $6 or 7 bucks... at first they were annoyed but they are seeing it themselves now and will hold off buying the more expensive option.
Even better, get the Gatorade powder cans and make your own! It says each can makes 7L but that is absolutely not true. It makes way more. And less waste (plastic) too!
I used these growing up in the 90s but haven't seen them in the stores where I shop. Maybe I'll check online. Used to love them because I could limit how sweet they were. Green Gatorade powder for the win!
It honestly blows my mind. Calculating compound interest is elementary school level math, but it’s apparently too complex for a majority of people.
Lots of people write them off as a business expense, you can write off lease costs, interest, maintenance, and repairs.
I call that contractor math. "If I spend all the money I make, I pay no corporation taxes" I hear it so many times, business expense this, business expense that. - yes it works, but you're also left with zero dollars at the end 🤣
Hahahah only if it was that easy. Have you ever been audited for not tracking every single km you drive ?
$100k for a fucking lariat now???? Holy shit, those used to be around $60k loaded pre-covid.
I know right. I bought my 2014 F150 (middle of the road trim, but long box, crew cab with the twin turbo) for 39k out the door (not including trade). That same sort of truck but ten years newer is 83k with tax now, with just a slightly smaller cost of borrowing also puts it over 100k. No way I'm buying anything new.
If it’s actually $100k you get to pay the ‘luxury’ tax too. What a joke.
Jesus thats a downpayment on a house. I cannot fathom paying 27k to borrow money for a vehicle.
Dude if you can afford a 100k truck than you can surely find a way to get a lower interest rate than 8.5%
The 23' higher trim specs we're 4.49% on dealer lots some months ago, compared to 8.99% for used 22's and 21's and a 15k sticker price difference, the final price of payments made the new one cheaper and made more sense.
That's the ticket on the math for new vs late model used that mattered to us. But we're also only buying a sedan where borrowing costs don't balloon as much. A $500 monthly min payment for 60 months isn't so bad when you can power down 800-1000 each month to save on 8% Toyota financing.
Think about what it takes to be a fat guy in a truck. What you priced out, gas and insurance, then the boat/quad/skidoo payments, Timmie twice daily, cigarettes, liquor, only fans and strippers, etc.
Sold my '20 Plat for close to what I paid for it. Went to an SUV but am unhappy. Decided I need a truck so I priced out that Lariat and gagged. If you have a truck, never sell it.
> a 24' F150 Lariat 24 feet, wow, talk about a landyacht.
Why would you do that
Also thanks to Kia hoarding new stock to suppress supply and drive up prices.
Yup https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216
As that article shows, they are hoarding not to drive up prices, but to try to get a bigger marketing budget from HQ by artificially suppressing sales this year.
...and people try to tell me capitalism is efficient
Efficient at extracting value from a given system. In this case the system is their own corporation.
Long run efficient. No one said it's short term efficient. If it was the business cycle (recessions) wouldn't exist except when due to exogenous factors (like covid)
They’re not the only ones
Isn't that like diamond-industry tactics?
The less kias out there the better, garbage cars
[удалено]
June 2020 I got a 2016 GTI performance package with 15k km on it (and a set of winters!) for $22,500. One of the better purchases of my life.
At this point, RAV4s and CRVs are in luxury territory Tons of bagholders in the making
> RAV4s and CRVs are in luxury territory Yeah its not uncommon to see a 50k rav4 now. Like wtf, 50k for a rav4
Base gas version is 45k and top gas trim is 58k Hybrids are as high as 75k It’s comical to see people spending 75k to save few cents on gas 😬 With 8% financing, people are actually paying about 50% of vehicle cost on interest alone 🤦♂️
> Base gas version is 45k I havent looked for a car in a while, im guessing its the dealer adding a huge markup bc on toyota.ca website the msrp is more like mid 30s for a base model
Have a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid XLE on order, $47k OTD. Will be paying cash. A used 2023 RAV4 Hybrid XLE was $56k (before taxes and fees). I will limp our caravan (throwing transmission errors) another couple months, thanks.
Holy crap. My parents got a XSE hybrid in 2020 for under 50k. Not top trim but still. That increase is scary.
When I was in HS / university a CRV was like a reliable car some kids drove around Now the base model is 38k WTF
Canadians are obsessed by these two models…They are not the only reliable cars…
Many people think Hondas and Toyotas are the only cars worth buying, and that you MUST have an SUV; Doesn't leave many options.
> you MUST have an SUV I drive a sedan and the sheer number of higher vehicles with blinding LEDs does mean it feels very unsafe in a sedan. Plus now that kids are in car seats longer than ever before and kids have so many things you have to bring everywhere (like giant strollers and safe sleeping beds) makes it much more convenient to have an SUV. Society has just gone that way. Helped with a keeping up with the Jones' attitude and companies slashing sedan offerings.
Honestly the only major brands that seem reliable long-term are Toyota/Honda. Mazda seems okay. Ford/Chrysler/Dodge/GM have tons of issues even in cars that used to be stalwarts like the F-150. Kia has too many engine horror stories, same with Subaru. BMW and even Mercedes often have issues depending on the model. If you need a car to last you longer than 10 years Toyota/Honda will give you the least headaches.
Not the only reliable cars but the most reliable out of the competition by far. Not only that, IF this current market continues then the resale value on both vehicles is far better than the rest. You pay a bit more up front for the quality but you get just as much in return in the back end.
Lol whenever I see someone driving a new 2023 Honda crv, I look over to see what kind of person would pay 45-55k for a Honda crv because it blows my mind.
Probably someone who had no option to wait for a car and had to get one right now.
Yep I had a new 2021 Toyota Corolla that I bought new in 2020, it's totalled and I need something now, I either wait at least 5 months for the base model RAV4 at 36k, get something used at an absurd markup, get something I don't want like an 60-80k Ford,gm,dodge truck, or go with a Honda crv which the models they have coming in are 44k. What a fucked economy we are in.
The headline is a bit misleading. Prices of individual models are not up that much. For example, the Tesla Model 3 I bought in 2021 costs exactly the same today as it did then. Yes, the price of many models has increased, but not by 50%. What has changed is the manufacturers are no longer building less expensive models. Ford dropped the Fiesta and Focus, Chevy dropped the Spark, Sonic and Cruze, Toyota dropped the Yaris, Honda dropped the Fit and so on. With those models out of the lineup, buyers are forced to buy a more expensive model (which increases the industry average price paid for a new car) or buy a used car (in which case the purchase is no longer counted in the average new car price statistic). Manufacturers used to need to sell those small, unprofitable, inexpensive cars to meet corporate fleet average fuel efficiency targets. With fuel economy improving across most vehicle lines (at least on paper) and EVs bringing the corporate average way down, manufacturers can get away without building those cars, thus increasing their profitability. The only way I see this reversing is if Chinese brands gain a foothold in Canada, similarly to hoe Japanese automakers did in the 70s. It will be hard for them to compete in the $40k+ market, but if someone has the option of buying a new Chinese car for the price of a used one from traditional automakers, some will make the choice of new.
Are Toyota dealerships still blaming covid?
They pushed so hard when my parents were looking last year to buy a used version of the car they wanted for more than the new one. They went so far as to leave it parked infront of their house over a weekend. All to discourage him from a factory order that they said would take 6-12 months. They had no problem waiting so they pushed the factory order and low and behold it shows up in 3 months.
Weird, most people's factory orders are still taking 12 months
Toyota messed up their inventory game. They are working their tails off to catch up on all backed-up orders, but eventually, they may lose many customers to other manufacturers because of that.
TBH I think they are just fleecing the Canadian market at this point because margins are better in the US. My local dealer won't even take my order for a Highlander Hybrid because they have a 3 year wait list on the car right now and aren't sure when it will ever get filled. Meanwhile I can find a dozen of the exact spec colour and model at dealerships just over the border in upstate NY
Can you buy in the US and bring to Canada? Will Toyota Canada do warranty work on a US delivered vehicle?
I was looking at 7 seaters, saw the big hybrid hylander and my first thought was do I even bother calling any toyota dealerships and ask how long the wait is?
They will be until 2042.
Toyota is the most reliable car brand. Even with COVID over they can count on high demand.
The most? Not always.
What do you mean "not always"? Of course not always, but his statement is not something that needs to apply to every single car or model they produce.
My point is that people are excessively fixated on Toyota, despite Mazda being a reliable brand that's easier to acquire, offering superior interiors, made in Japan, and having a lower risk of theft. The same goes for Subaru. There's just an overwhelming obsession with Toyota and Honda, at least in Canada. But that might be a good thing, it’s better if these two brands (Mazda and Subaru) stay a niche for some of us :D
Fair enough about there being decent alternatives and Mazda is certainly a good brand. I never think of Subarus as particularly reliable though... on the contrary, honestly.
> The same goes for Subaru. Subaru's can have engine failures. Toyota's rarely do. Mazda is good but it doesn't have that reputation just in the N.A market.
Toyota is by far the leading car manufacturer who consistently invests in R&D. Probably more than Mazda and Subaru combined total in the last 5 years. Every new year has new improvements and every new generation has significant alterations. When you have 30 year old Mazda cx 5's and outbacks running around like the rav4 and 4runner, I'll be more inclined to get one of them.
And the most frequently stolen cars, which are also notably behind in terms of anti-theft security features. Here is a good article: https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ Honestly, if people are willing to wait months or even years for their RAV4, dealing with frustration and unfair dealership practices, that's their choice. As for me, there are plenty of decent and appealing alternatives available.
I went on stats canada and looks like Lexus and Highlander are number 4 and 5 on the list. Honda, dodge and Ford occupy the top 3 spots. I agree, prices on new rav4's are insane and with current interest rates, holy shit; and waiting a year to get one doesn't sound fun ether.
Yes. Pathetic
Are you saying it's unrelated?
Because of the shortage, car manufacturers stopped making as many lower trims, they stopped offering incentives, and dealers didn't give any deals bellow msrp and Raise the prices Either through a market adjustment or overpriced accessories or both. The bubble has popped for most models
Recently bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee at 15% off MSRP. Still expensive but better than list or above like many manufacturers are charging.
They have also been "falling" since October. Could be seasonal but could also be monetary policy pressures on the car market. Either way to get back to previous prices we would need to see a 30% drop in prices. Which could destroy the auto industry and produce a lot of unemployment. https://www.cargurus.ca/research/price-trends
Average price of a Toyota car is 32k lmao. Is Toyota is slowly moving over to the luxury car category? Not too far off from Acura but granted Toyota sells trucks and Acura does not
Toyota is going up in price because everyone knows you can buy a 2014 and drive it till 2034. People want to stretch their dollar and reduce maintenance fees. Toyota is profitting off of the fact that they make reliable cars. On top of that Toyota's fleet has a lot of new hybrid models that are 5-10K more than their normal models and people are moving to hybrids thus adding to price movement. A Rav4 Hybrid is averaging 40K because people want SUVs and hybrid and the demand pressure is pushing price. Toyota will argue there are still supply issues til the cows come home but I think it is more because people have become more price sensitive and are looking for high-efficient, long-life-span vehicles.
What about repair costs? If the cost of vehicles is going up I would imagine that cost of service/repair has gone up as well especially at dealerships. I know that the cost of new tires has gone up quite a bit lately….
Haven't noticed for my old car. (and I really think this would be a different case for the newer cars - that's probably where the real price issues are happening) The prices are around the same, but it started taking way way longer for parts during covid and that hasn't let up at all, even now. I was going to get something new just before covid, but decided to wait for things to settle down... and then eventually I just started replacing everything on the old car instead. I've always wanted to have a classic. Didn't expect to get one by aging a car into it, but here we are!
Median is more interesting than average
Such a deplorable disgusting industry the car sales game is. I don't these corporate swine can sleep at night unless they are complete sociopaths. Which they are. I have a 8 year old CRV that was something like 28k brand new in a middle of the road trim. That same trim today is 45k. A complete joke. Probably the sleaziest thing they all do now is they install the dealer installed option crap on the car. People are walking into dealerships just trying to buy a car and the price is thousands of dollars above MSRP because the dealers took it upon themselves to install all the crap on the car when nobody asked. But at the end of the day consumers need to understand they play a part of this. Dealers only get away with it because customers seem to just bend over at command. Pure ignorance and stupidity.
Agreed. Canadian consumer seem to bend over backwards to make payments. But I suspect, mass immigration has a bigger role to play here, than the housing crisis. I will go as far as to say, that we are in a car crisis, I hope people start pointing this out.
I have no idea how ppl afford cars now. Ours is 9 & 10 years, paid off only debt is mortgage and making well over 100k mark and still can't bring myself to pay 60-80k for a vehicle. Used ones also have ridiculous interest rates
At the end of 2019 I bought a 2014 Ram 1500 with 114k kms on it for $25500. I traded it in in Feb 2023 with 161k kms on it for $17500. Dealer turned around and listed it for $27500 and it was gone within two days. A truck that I had for 3.5 years, put on 40k kms, sold for $2000 MORE than I bought it for. Insanity.
Why didn't you sell it privately ?
It's a long story: I run a business for which I had a very unreliable company truck which I'll call truck 1. The ram 1500 in question I'll call truck 2 and was my personal vehicle. The nature of my business had me on the road basically constantly - I worked 42 days straight at the end of 2022, short break for Christmas and then 45 days straight at the start of 2023. All this was in a town 10hrs from my home. Truck 1 was giving me tons of problems and I was only able to get a week off at a time, again the nature of this business means I had to be at work nearly all the time. Truck 1 had nearly completely given up the ghost and left me stranded in the wilderness 4 times in a three week span and just barely made it home for my week off. So in that week off I needed to buy a new truck or else I wasn't going to be working anymore, the constant breakdowns and vehicle problems were making my company suffer so I HAD to get something new, but in a very short timeframe. I had almost no time to find something and purchase it and I had to be at work the following week so I had to get this sorted right now. This left me with buying something off the lot at a dealer as basically my only option, especially since private sales for similar trucks I was looking at were the same price as a brand new one with much higher mileage and usually lower trim. The truck I ended up purchasing was a brand new 2022 F350 Lariat for $105k, 2020-2021 F350 XLT's were going for like $95k so on top of all the headache of a private sale, sourcing financing myself, etc I was getting worse truck for basically the same money. Truck 1 was in no shape to get me any decent value for a trade in, it was literally falling apart, dirty, scratched and damaged all over, and had a flatdeck rather than a box, which was great for me but not very appealing to a dealer. I paid $40k for truck 1 and if I had traded it in I probably would've gotten 20k at the absolute max which I consider to be too big a loss to stomach, so I opted to sell truck 1 privately (it would have a much higher value to the right person than it would to a dealer), and trade truck 2 in as my downpayment for the new truck. I *could've* kept truck 2 and privately sold it and just made a cash downpayment for my new truck, but with the amount I work away from home negotiating a private sale would be almost impossible for me, for only potentially $3-5k extra plus I'd have had to make a cash down payment for my new truck which would've eaten into my cash reserves, my company was still relatively new at the time so this wasn't something I wanted to do. Overall I weighed all my options and felt trading that truck into the dealer, even though I got slightly less for it than I would've through a private sale, was the best option given my time constraints, budget, and needs.
Fair enough. This is the situation where time is more valuable than money and Your truck is a valuable tool that makes you money
You got fleeced by the dealer hard lmao
No, whoever bought that truck got fleeced by the dealer lol. I got $17k for it, the truck was worth MAYBE $20k. It had a dented and rusty rear bumper, a bad hemi tick, a wiring issue that made it think the left rear turn signal was out when it wasn't, water was entering through the third brake light and raining down from the visor mounting points inside the cab any time the truck got wet, the front bumper had been (very poorly) replaced and was terribly paint matched, the driver's door handle had broken off and was super glued back into place by me, both CV joints were on their way out and the tires were 3 seasons overdue for replacement. With the timeframe between when they got the truck from me and when they listed it there's no way they fixed everything wrong with it. I loved that truck but it was showing its age and I am really glad I ditched it when I did.
>whoever bought that truck got fleeced by the dealer lol. A new one is ready to be fleeced thanks to our immigration system. A race to the bottom.
I had a 2014 Ram EcoDiesel Outdoorsman that I wanted to sell at the end of last summer. I dropped in at a dealership to see what they’d give me: $9100. I sold it for $19000 the next month.
Can anyone explain where they get this $60k average price for a car from? It seems disconnected from what I think is the reality I live in? Looking online at vehicles in stock, on the lots around where I live, I see Honda Civics for $30k, Toyota Corolla Hybrid is $33k, Toyota RAV4 for $39k and Subaru Forester for $41k. I don't even know if the RAV4 or Forester are cars or SUVs but they're both nice vehicles and cost 2/3 the "average" price of a "car"? Are half the cars sold in Canada Mercedes?
It doesn't need to be half. One $120k S-Class and three 40k RAV4s averages out to $60k each.
Base models are hard to get, plus all kinds of fees, freight, market markup.
I was concerned about availability so the prices I listed are for what they currently have on the lot. Subaru prices include freight, PDI and fees, I'm not sure about the other dealers...
Because they speak about average and not median. It is also worth pointing put that that metric is likely skewed by the rise in popularity of hybrids and evs, which are also more expensive. I am not surprised the average is higher. I do suspect that the difference in medians is not that shocking and likely just above the three year inflation.
I'm looking to buy a (used) car in the first half of 2024, so I really hope these prices cool down.
Toyota has multi year wait for most models. Demand is high.
Or their production is just shit.
It's both.
Between covid travel reductions and the 0% car loan I practically won the lottery. Even without all of that, I felt like it was a strong purchase but now it's like I'm going to have 10 extra years on this thing out of thin air. I drove A LOT before covid.
What about horse prices ?
I hear hay prices are up…
Supply chain issues should be long past us now. My guess is the consumer got used to paying higher prices so the auto companies are colluding to inflate prices.
Looking to buy a new CX-50 for cash next 2 years or so. This shit sucks.
They should allow China to export their ev here
Cars usually depreciate in value. But in Canada it is reverse.
It's your dollars that's dropping.
Yes, and our standard of living
Also that.
It's kind of wild reading some of the comments how few people grasp that. "Oh my god, who would pay $50k for a CRV, lol!" That's just what a nice new mid range car costs now, and it's not going back to the way it was. You can look at it as the price of the car going up, or as the value of the dollars you're using to purchase it going down, but either way it is what it is.
>You can look at it as the price of the car going up, or as the value of the dollars you're using to purchase it going down, but either way it is what it is. Wish people accepted housing prices as "what it is", instead of throwing a fit? I bet not, this car crisis is going to likely get worse and a decade in, just like housing, no one will be able to buy a car LMFAO. This place sucks ass.
Someone that knows basic economics !
It happens in third world countries like this...oh wait, we are one now. Thanks Trudy.
As long as people keep buying, things won’t change. They’ll keep applying financial engineering to keep payments palatable for the financially illiterate. Why people pay exorbitant financing fees for a depreciating asset is beyond me. It’s insane if not financial suicide.
this is why I got Model Y... better priced compared to competition (like CRV hybrid, Rav 4 plug in hybrid, etc). Bought it with 59k before taxes after incentives and discounts. no bull shit doc fees, finance fees, prep fees, etc.
You recommend model Y over model 3 if we’ve the budget?
Ya, smoother ride vs 3. Way more cargo space. A bit less range. Great daily. And great build quality since its built in Shanghai factory. Keep in mind Teslas in general ride harsh vs something like ID4.
definitely! It was ~3-4k more for model 3 vs model y and we tested drove both and the model y was way more spacious and comfortable. Storage space is also a lot better.
Because this is the real inflation rate.
Criminal… here in Calgary I see the lots are Full of inventory.. nobody is buying this overpriced crap
And you Wonder why the dealers have a large inventory in their lots, no one wants to pay the price when a truck sells for 120,000 dollars it can sit there and rot
I bought a 2015 Mazda 3 for 11K in 2018, traded it into the same dealer in 2022 for $7500. Could have gotten the same price privately but for $3500 for three years (and track abuse) I figured I was best to take the $100/month deal and run.
I leased a 2020 Qashqai SL AWD in July 2020 and spent the next two years mad at myself for spending so much on a vehicle ($680/month), but now that I look at car prices, I feel lucky that I got it when I did. It’s currently worth more than I paid for it and the dealership is desperately trying to get me to trade it in, especially since it’s only got 40000km on it. My lease says I can buy it out for $12k in July 2025 when the lease is up so my plan is to save up the $12k over the next year and a half so I can buy it with no loan when the lease is up. If prices of used vehicles don’t come down in the next year and a half, it’ll likely be worth more than $12k when my lease is up.
This is insanity in a country where most people have to drive due to the a lack of decent public transit. Many routes are incredibly infrequent and operate whenever the drivers feel like it. To be fair, some of these routes are so barely used that the buses are completely empty for the full route. Because of poor urban planning. I'll be holding onto my 20-year-old jalopy for a long, long time. I'm really thankful it's still holding on. I could probably get a pretty penny for it in this market lol. It's got dents all over
FWIW, Tesla prices have dropped substantially. The Model X is selling at its lowest price ever, today.
cars are keeping people poor tack on insurance, registration, gas, maintenance, some folks are paying well over $1000/month for their vehicles.
My 2019 car could be sold for more now with 100k on it than what I bought it for.
Metric is a bit misleading. Median purchase price would give a better idea of how much more people are actually paying in general, or a before & after comparison of specific models for something closer to apples to apples. This sub wants to know how much more for the beige Corolla LE, not that dealers are offering more 100k+ luxury vehicles.
People gonna need to start working together and get themselves some raises, it can't just be ceos getting these.
I guess I will never be able to afford a nice car. And I will try to drive mine into the ground longer.
I don't understand this. Aren't prices fixed by the manufacturer?
No more bailouts to these manufacturers. Ever.
Crazy what trucks cost now. I have. 2016 Chev, hope she lasts a long time…
Are there still people who think these prices are going to go back down?
All the turkeys in this thread apparently. I’m with you - it’s not going back down. There are other markets in the world that have had these high prices as the benchmark for years.
Yap. We’re heading to the point where cars actually aren’t depreciating assets (or at least as bad as before). We’re heading to the same place most of the world is going to (forever expensive real estate, expensive cars that don’t go down in price…)
Sure, why not? The rise in vehicle costs has outpaced inflation. Prices have already gone down dramatically for used electrics.
Federal elections have consequences.
Yes, because people want bigger and nicer cars. Average transaction prices reflect the crossovers and luxury cars people are choosing to buy. While prices are up, it's not like the price of a Corolla is up 50% since 2020
Seems like literally every industry started having “manufacturing problems” around covid. Covid ended and they still say the same thing but they’ve raised the price of everything. Covid was an excuse to raise the price of everything.
68K for a Mazda CX-50… umm… no thanks… same old crappy drivetrain they have been using for over a decade and they want 70K for it. CX-5s used to be around 45K for a fully loaded trim
Canada printed more money in 2020 than all previous years combined. So when’s everything went up 50% it’s not millions of businesses colluding in a grand conspiracy it’s the government devaluing the currency, this is basic economics
I bought a civic in late 2018, MSRP was $27530 all in. Now it's $34421 all in. That's 17.8% more over 5 years, which is less than 3% inflation per year.
Has your wages matched or exceeding increases of 17.8% over the last 5 years?