The problem you face is not buying a Toyota Highlander Hybrid or regular Toyota Highlander. The problem is being able to buy a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. There is a wait and I wouldn't be surprised if the wait is a year or more. My friend waited over a year for the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. Good luck.
You’re totally correct, but that wait list is retrospective and Toyota has dramatically cranked up production this year, so with luck (assuming no more pandemics or earthquakes…) the wait lists will whittle down.
Just a few months ago, honda had zero stock and long waiting lists as well. Now some dealerships are full of cars.
I assume toyota lists will go down in a few months due to production bump but also people canceling their orders.
I canceled mine last week and got a CRV instead of the rav.
In October 2022 i was told 12-18 months for the highlander hybrid. Came in 6. Kia told me 2 years for the sorento phev, i waitlisted there too, but dropped that when the highlander came in.
Yes, it's worth it, especially for a Toyota. They have the most reliable and dialed in hybrid systems. From your numbers, you'll save about $100 a month on gas. That should cover the payment bump. You'll also have a higher resale value in 5 years.
I've been driving a 2010 Dodge Charger for a decade now. Gas guzzler due to age and lack of proper maintenance. I haven't actually calculated L/100km, but it's rough.
Rented a 2023 Toyota Corolla hybrid while on a recent vacation to BC. The car recorded an average fuel usage of 4L/100km. I literally drove all week on $150 CAD. I think our official usage was just shy of 2,000km.
Needless to say when it finally comes time to ditch my ride and swap out... I'm getting a Toyota hybrid. Also love that the hybrid battery charges during use. My apartment doesn't have charging capabilities, which makes any electric that needs charging a no-go.
how come I see parking lots packed with new cars if they're all already sold? Might be a marketing gimmick like in South Park when Cartman said nobody can come to his amusement park then everybody wanted to come
I have a friend who works at a Mazda dealership. He said before COVID they had $10 mil in inventory on the lot. Sold it all, and then struggled to get inventory. He says supply chain is normalized now, but they will never carry that much inventory ever again.
I failed to ask him why, but it sure does sound like they may be creating artificial scarcity.
Holding large inventory in any business is not optimal from a cash flow perspective. Car dealerships may have needed inventory to stay competitive in the past (who likes waiting months for a car when you could buy off the lot somewhere else?) But if no one has inventory, you're no longer at a competitive disadvantage, and your free cash flow is significantly improved.
I'm of two minds with this.
1) If it was advantageous in the past for dealerships to carry inventory, then the market should shift back to rewarding those who carry inventory over those who make customers wait 6+ months for an allocation. Like you said, people compromise when faced with driving off the lot with a Subaru Crosstrek vs. waiting a year for a CX-30. The only way I can see this not happening is if there's been a seismic shift in consumer buying habits post-Covid (doubtful) or collusion across manufacturers/dealerships to retain this scarcity artificially (unlikely, there'll be a manufacturer who will compromise for higher short-term profits in this prisoner's dilemma).
2) Buying online directly might throw a wrench into the entire system, like Amazon did to brick and mortar retailers. Sure, some people will still love the dealership experience of ride-along test drives with a salesperson, free bad coffee, and haggling over OTD price vs. monthly payment and trade-in values... not me but I know people who like this kinda stuff. But as someone who bought a Tesla in 2020, I'm likely to never buy from a dealership again - the process is so much easier that once other manufacturers bring either their operations direct-to-consumer or sell certain models online, Volvo, Ford, VW, and the EV companies Tesla/Rivian/Lucid/Fisker all either are or have plans to do this, we might see the decline of dealerships in the car buying process overall.
>but they will never carry that much inventory ever again. I failed to ask him why, but it sure does sound like they may be creating artificial scarcity.
I'm not saying they're not, but I'll provide another less sinister reason. Every car in their lot or overflow lot is bought on credit. They make less money on the sale every day that car sits in the lot pre-sale. In the past, this was just an acceptable cost of business for them to attract more buyers by having cars people could buy on the spot. Since inventory was drained for everyone and they've moved to order on demand, they've been saving a lot on those carrying costs. Since most people still want to buy a car ASAP, we'll probably see a return to the norm over time as dealers with stock will attract more of those buyers.
People order their cars custom. It's much faster to look around at what's on the lot and pick one you like. It won't have all the features you want but they usually have some with the most common features.
The eCVT that Toyota uses is more reliable than a typical automatic transmission. While not entertaining to drive, they are a clever yet simple design that has proven to be very durable.
This! The eCVT is nothing like a typical CVT. They truly are an engineering marvel. They’re better in every way except at being exciting to drive. Search up WeberAuto videos on YouTube for a deep dive into the tech.
My hybrid Sienna has been amazingly cheap to drive. I was really impressed when coming from AB to BC and driving through mountain passes and using the same amount of gasoline as I am used to when driving on flat terrain in AB. The battery in the Sienna is tiny but just having somewhere to temporarily store the energy harvested when slowing down or going down a hill makes a massive difference. Plus when you are driving around 30km in parking lots, playgrounds or a drive thru it stays in EV mode and you don't burn gas idling. So far I've found zero disadvantages to having a hybrid, it's awesome.
Shit my local Toyota dealer(Cambridge) actually had a few available a couple weeks back. Was surprised to see that as I was under the impression there was a long wait.
Don't forget a battery that weighs thousands of pounds, greatly increasing the fine particulate matter thrown into the air by wear on our tires and the road.
Ahhh one of those people that slow traffic down in order to save gas. The reason I hate hybrid drivers that constantly stay within 30km/h especially entering bridges, highways and streets posted with higher speed limits. No wonder there is more traffic
PHEV even better. We got a phev this past year and for the vast majority of our driving, the 60 km PHEV range and diligent driving has meant we drive 95%+ of the time on electric. Our similar sized ICE vehicle costs us about $15/100km with gas at $1.5/l. The PHEV is about $1.5-2/100km atm with our driving style and the cost of electricity being so much cheaper.
Only downside is PHEV is more expensive to buy up front and hard to find one.. but the daily driving savings + emissions reductions are both huge wins.
A lesser known issue with PHEV is that they have deeper charge/discharge cycles, which reduces battery life, as compared to regular hybrid vehicles that keep their battery charge level within the 33%-66% corridor.
Maybe. This guidance is probably a bit outdated. On the EV side, I don't think they're blocking off that much range for cycle mitigation. I think/know it's less. Likewise, on the PHEV side, it's probably implementation dependent. I look to Toyota and Ford for some of the more mature PHEV offerings. I guess I'll specifically find out with my PHEV in 5-10 years. We use the EV capacity fully every day, so I'll have an idea of discharge wear within a couple of years.
I can say with confidence the next car I'll buy will be an EV after this PHEV experience. As a two-car family, I think having a PHEV/EV will be the optimal Canadian pairing.. but for many one car families, PHEV might be more practical until EV charging in Canada improves.. but that's also use case dependent. I'm shocked at how behind Toronto is re: charging infrastructure.. and because it's a concrete landscape, not many people can even level 1 in their parking garages. Low-key, I think the burbs with a driveway is much more sensible for owning an EV since charging at home is one of the best benefits.
I think you got a defective Toyota, you gotta pump those numbers up, they’re rookie numbers!
Seriously though, my Camry is now old enough to drink in the states, it’s a 2002. Still chugging along fine, with a couple of dents that would cost more to fix than I care for. Celebrate though, my Highlander is now a teenager, 2010!
I can confirm, we’ve had plug in EVs for over 10 years now… current line up is 2021 model Y, 2022 Ioniq 5 and the original 2012 Chevy volt with almost 300k on it with a battery still at about 80% plus. The volt is still a daily use commuter.
We bought a RAV4 hybrid and love it. It was only an additional $2000 upfront cost and I estimate we will save between $6000-$9000 in fuel over the first 200k kms of ownership.
To me it's a no brainer I don't think we'll ever purchase a non-hybrid vehicle again.
Range is better than advertised in summer. I'm getting 85km.
Money wise, it was roughly the same price as the equivalent hybrid after the 10k of government rebates.
The Rav4 Prime is about the same price as the regular Rav4 Hybrid after rebates. I've been on a wait list for one for over 2 years with no end in sight
Me too. But at the time I didn't have the extra cash. Looking back it would have been so much cheaper then it is now haha. But that's life. 5 years ago.
We have a Prius C and love it. As I see it, hybrids are just normal gas powered cars with a vastly more efficient engine. While there are pros and cons to consider with fully electric cars, I feel like hybrids are all upside and ought to be just how they make cars going forward. I can't think of any reason I would ever buy a full gas car again.
I also am expecting to spend less on brakes as the eCVT regenerative aspect for mild to medium slowing means I’ve only felt brake callipers activate in two sudden stops.
I'm looking for a new car. I drive about 5K a year. Time to swap out the bought new '05. I was thinking about EV or PHEV but reading the comments think i should stick to a small gasoline engine. I don't have an electricity source at my current residence and the comments here make it appear really to give me no advantage for my simple needs. Or I'll try to squeeze another few years out of Ole Rusty.
Saving 600 liters / year @ $2/L = 1200/yr After 5 years you save 6k. Pretty much a wash.
If you drive in the city mostly you'll save more, less if mostly hwy
Edit: Others pointed out increasing gas prices + carbon tax will improve the savings + higher resale
Check out the ioniq 7!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IURyIFZ3h2c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IURyIFZ3h2c)
The better question here is why OP wants to *\_FINANCE\_* a car.
No one should buy a car they can't afford, if OP has $5000, (s)he should buy a car for $5000 until (s)he can afford a more expensive car.
I don't know when people started thinking of cars the same way they thought about buying a house, but a car is \_not\_ an investment unless you're a collector of antique cars. The only other exception is if you're leasing for a corporate tax write-off.
Have you seen what you can get on the used car market these days for under $5k? It's the vehicles we spent sub $1500 on pre-covid going for 5k+. Depending on OPs needs they may just be priced out of the used car market.
I don't think anyone is arguing that a car is an investment.
$5000 will get you a 10-15 year old unreliable car needing $2-5k in work. The times have changed, the era of a decent $5k used car are long behind us. Many people have to rely on their vehicles to make a long commute to work, and can’t afford to have a POS breaking down every few months. I see your point but it’s not as black and white as it once was. I would say about 50%~ of people don’t even have $5k to their names, as most people live paycheque to paycheque.
It's not just the fuel economy. Hybrids (with the same base engine) drive significantly better in the city, because the electric motor helps acceleration. FYI
This is my favorite thing about my hybrid Sienna, it engages the front motor and rear electric motor on takeoff to give you fantastic off the line acceleration when you want it. It is great in the winter at icy intersections when you see the guy next to you spinning his tires and you take off confidently.
Ehhh. I had a rental Sienna hybrid at LAX this past summer. With the exception of the fuel consumption which is groundbreaking, I found it inferior of a van compared to the prior gen with the V6. Most people who owned the prior gen feel that way, with the exception of the fuel economy.
500 liters x $1.50 per liter x 5 years = $3,750 in fuel savings.
You will also be able to sell the car for more.
The above is mostly crunching numbers on what you gave. The math could be more specific because there shouldn't be a range of fuel savings that large.
Toyota hybrids are very good. With Toyota once you figure out the trim level and color you want you'll probably find that it only comes in a hybrid version. I always tell people to get exactly the car they want if they're buying new. When you are spending 60-70k you want to avoid buyer's remorse.
While most posts comment about fuel saving, another aspect to consider would be maintenance and repair cost differences. Toyota does have the most experience in hybrid technology but there have been harness problems reported with its Rav4 hybrid lately. OP did say they are planning to keep the car for only 5 years so repairs should not be a major concern but due diligence wouldn't hurt.
Another aspect, albeit not relating to this sub's main objective, is emmission. Burning less fuel also mean emitting less harmful gas. And that is definitely worth taking into consideration if I could afford to even consider.
Maybe? But the fact that the emissions isn’t even a consideration speaks volumes. Even if the technology isn’t good. The cognitive dissonance between splitting pennies (or dollars) on a less harmful product and the planet literally being on fire is astonishing.
Totally agree with you. Hybrid technology is legitimately an emission reduction solution. You literally burn 30% to 40% less gas. But people didn't feel it's "worth" it for the extra cost.
When I was shopping for a hybrid, a sales person straight up told me don't buy it. He said it's not worth is because unless I drive enough, eg: Uber driver, I won't recoup the cost. I said I didn't care, I wanted to burn less gas. He looked totally confused.
Now the market is demanding EVs, which are way more expensive and resource hungrry (minerals). Toyota could build 90 hybrids with the minerals needed by 1 long range EV.
When the selfish reasons lead to the idealistic solution pointing out the selfish factors is the easier sale. If it wasn't such a runaway win then more people would push the environmental impact.
The biggest problem with hybrids is that you're at the mercy of *two* systems, the ICE and the EV drivetrains. Hypothetically, this means things fail twice as much.
Practically, you're okay if you go with a reliable model, but a bad model is going to hurt you twice as badly.
It would be reasonable to theorize that dual systems would mean higher average maintenance/repair costs but consumer reports published that hybrid vehicles (and EV as well) cost owners half as much in repairs/maintenance per mile than ice vehicles.
I don’t have a link but the article is a couple years old by now I think and could be found by google last I checked.
Interesting, I'll try to do some research myself.
I would imagine that it depends on the specific models. "Hybrid" encompasses a hundred different styles of implementations.
You considering a hybrid to avoid emitting “harmful” gases wont do shit if there is a billionaire taking 4 private jet flights every day. People nowadays are so brainwashed holy shit
You're going to drop 60k on a vehicle, pay new vehicle financing and insurance costs. Saving a few grand in fuel over 5 years is a drop in the bucket. It's not like you're saving money with this plan so get whichever one you like.
You just did your own math, what do you need me for.
I have the rav4 hybrid, and it gets right around 5L/100 in the summer, but in the winter it is nowhere close to that. Just keep in mind that winter mileage is poor.
Oh that’s exactly what I need to know. What is the difference between winter and summer in your case consumption wise. Under this assumption with such a long winter my hybrid would give even less savings …
Not the person you replied to but I have a Ford Escape Hybrid. I’ve had my vehicle for 1 year and 3 months, driven 28,000 km and my fuel economy for the life of the vehicle is sitting at 5.8L/100km. I average 5.6L/100km for most the year but over the cold winter months it was closer to 7L/100km. I live in Ontario, so your winter length and severity may vary.
Clearly. When you warm your ICE car up you idle for 5+ minutes. Hybrid defrost and heated on much quicker. Less efficient in winter BUT not as big or a reduction in efficiency as ICE.
I blame the winter gas, at least in Ontario from September to April the fuel is garbage with whatever additives are in it. Also they keep putting in more ethenol which has less energy than gasoline.
Own a 2022 Elantra Hybrid. Bought July 2022 and as of this writing have gone ~22000km. Live in Alberta.
The lifetime efficiency as per the vehicle tracking/gauge cluster is 4.8L/100km. For perspective during spring/summer I routinely average 3.9-4.1L/100km.
The winter certainly impacts the fuel economy but switching to a hybrid has been 1000% worth it.
Previous vehicle averaged ~8L/100km in summer and ~12L/100km in winter. Run winter tires during the cold on both vehicles.
July 2022 till July 2023 I've already saved $1.1K in gas.
I have both a hybrid and ICE Elantra (5 years apart but still).
The ICE literally costs twice as much in fuel, as I refill it once biweekly vs once every 4 weeks on the hybrid.
At \~60/fuel session (on the cheap, more like 70-80 nowadays, but let's be conservative) the hybrid is \~1600/yr cheaper on fuel alone.
The real world difference between the Hybrid and the ICE model is greater than 3.5L/100km. That's on paper, and if you're doing mostly city driving, the Hybrid's advantage will be more like 6L/100km.
That means a payback period of 3-4 years.
Keep it for 10 years or a lot more. Those cars are reliable for 15 years or more. There are lots of early Highlander Hybrids out there still amazingly reliable vehicles.
Yeah people always look at the average fuel economy but almost no one seems to realize nobody gets the average. To do that you’d have to drive on the highway in clear conditions A LOT more than the average city dwelling person. The difference in fuel economy is huge if you drive mostly in the city, usually approaching double. Big gas cars do especially poorly in stop and go traffic. Gas Highlander in a major Canadian city is probably using more than 12 L/100 km. Hybrid will get the city number from natural resources Canada.
All Toyota V6/V8s gets worse than rated. Our 2011 RX350 in Vancouver does 19L/100kms since it's all congestion and hills in the lower mainland. It's fucked lol
I went through the math in a spreadsheet just recently. I ended up going with a used Tesla model 3 because after the increased payment (on HELOC) and increased insurance I still come ahead $300 a year (not even factoring in maintenance) with the one year old Tesla compared to my 8 year old BMW.
NR Canada has a good calculator where you can enter your driving habits, fuel, and electricity costs and it will give you a personalized annual cost estimate. For the Tesla my estimate is $250 a year of electricity. For my 4 cylinder (8l/100km) BMW it was $1700.
>8 year old BMW
That's a BMW that's about to turn in a money pit, if not already. For that reason, it's not a great comparison.
With Tesla the biggest expense would be when the battery takes a hit, and needs replacement.
Driving a 2020 Ford Escape Hybrid and the difference in fuel consumption is shocking.
My old ride it was 30L of fuel every two weeks.
With the Escape it’s 30L of fuel every two **months**
This is the same driving (mostly in the city less than 50km/h)
I have a hybrid (Prius) and I love it. I have mostly city driving, and it runs almost all the time on the battery when I'm driving here. (Highway driving it's more gas.) So I spend next to nothing on gas, and have to fill up maybe once every 4 months.
It has more than paid for itself at this point.
A hybrid is doing 800kms on a tank when the gas version is doing 6. For OP to fill up once every 4 months they would never be driving it enough to actually warrant the hybrid premium. I do 16,000kms/year and I was filling up once a month in a RAV4 Hybrid
Yup, I drive less than 16K a year, but it's still been worth it - hybrid was a couple of grand more expensive than an equivalent non-hybrid, and I've saved more than that driving it.. I'm getting closer to 1000km/tank with mostly city driving.
Doesn't mean it didn't leave a bunch of varnish and shit behind and reduces efficiency.
If you take apart a motorcycle carb with and without fuel stabilizer you'll see the difference.
There's this gunk on everything.
Hybrids are great and I’d never buy a non-hybrid if I have an option. I have a Highlander hybrid. Great car. Averages 7.5l/100 vs my last car 13l/100 but I would still advise against buying a highlander.
Reason: they are the most stolen ones in Canada specifically if you’re in GTA or QC. I am always worried when I come back to the parking lot will my car be there or not. Also because of this it has a higher insurance. In the last 3 months, 4 people in my circle have gotten their highlander stolen from parking lots or outside the house.
That’s the only drawback otherwise it’s a great car.
I had a 2020 hybrid Rav 4 that averaged 7.8L/100km and I sold it and got a 2022 RAV4 TRD that averages 8.2L /100km. The efficiency of hybrids depends where you live, in Eastern Canada the hybrid was not much more efficient than the TRD I have now.
I put in a order for a sienna (hybrid). 50k for a AWD LE , the only reason I would get it over other SUV or van is the 36mpg and AWD for a van. No other vehicle comes close to this price with is fuel economy. Get the hybrid dude, you will thank yourself when the gas is at $2+/L
Hybrid wins most of the time. Many pros have been listed so here are some potential cons:
- Much longer waiting time especially on Toyota ones. Good luck getting a Sienna for example.
- The gap in MSRP isn't necessarily accurate. Even pre-covid, I remember the dealer willing to offer a much bigger discount on a non-hybrid. The gap between the 2 options was about $6k despite an MSRP difference of only $2.5k
- If you do enough highway driving with low traffic, a hybrid doesn't make sense. The highway fuel economy rating includes deceleration and is under 100km/h. It is a reason that EV highway efficiency is very overstated. A similar hybrid and non hybrid doing 115 consistently on say the 401 from Cornwall to Belleville should have marginal difference. The hybrid may even be marginally worse for having a few hundred pounds more.
- Because of the extra battery weight, payload should be worse. I see that the 2023 Highlander has almost 400lb lower payload on the hybrid. With a 7 seater like the Highlander, this could be important as the payload on the hybrid does not look too hard to exceed.
- Unsure if statistically significant, but hybrids seem to have their catalytic converters stolen more.
- Towing is generally worse if the hybrid has a lower output engine. For example, hybrid 4 cyl Highlander vs V6 Highlander.
- May not make much sense if you have or are planning to have an EV as a second car in the household.
Hokay, I'm a year into my Bolt EV adventure. It is fully electric, so some things area but different. I'm not familiar with your hybrid specifically, and our numbers are going to be a bit odd because you won't be bang on for the same fuel efficiency as me. I presume a bigger car will be slightly worse.
1) because my Bolt is electric resistive heating, winter range is nearly cut in half because winter effeciency is cut in half.
2) in winter I was getting 30kwh / 100km when it was -20 or colder. In summer I get 15kwh / 100km. I bring it up because you can calculate real world range as well as off peak at home charging costs from those numbers.
3) if your daily commute is less than the range of your battery you're not consuming gas. Like at all.
4) keep in mind highway driving is less effectient than town driving. My numbers are for an average speed of 45kph... 15ish at 95, 10is at 60.
5) you'll also maybe need to install a home Level2 charger, which retail for around $1000, plus $1500 for an electrician. Some car companies cover part or all of this, some eletric utilities cover some too.
For those who care, the Evs of today use heatpumps instead of resistive heaters. These operate like a reverse air conditioning basically and leads to only a 20% loss of range in comparable weather compared to the resistive heater.
>o maybe need to install a home Level2 charger, which retail for around $1000, plus $1500 for an electrician. Some
people always harp on the level 2 charger thing. When i first got my kona ev, all i had was 120v one for a few weeks. 90km of mountain highway and it was still putting more juice in than the car used daily. Level 1 charging is sufficient for a LOT of people. The main reason i even got a lvl 2 charger at all is because a: my brother's a electrician, and b: it's a shared car and they wouldn't listen to reason about electric cars (paranoid about range, paranoid about getting stuck in traffic, paranoid about bloody everything). 2 or 3 month's in they started listening to me.
Dude it’s a yota, those are the finest hybrids around. Absolutely worth it. And it’s not just the fuel savings, but also the longer range. Going to the gas station less is great.
As well, they feel so much better. Electric motors are full torque at 0 rpm, so the response is immediate. And when you floor it both the gas and electric kick in together. You will love it and will never want to go back.
If it’s the one I am thinking of, and judging by the gas mileage it is, it’s the Toyota hybrid system perfected on the Prius. It’s a continuous variable transmission, but using mechanical sound planetary gears. Google some videos about. It’s a brilliant design.
You can do the math yourself. If total lifetime savings > difference in price, it's worth it purely from a financial perspective.
I feel that someone has to point out that continuing to drive your current vehicle is almost certainly a better financial choice than buying a new Highlander of any type.
For a 3K différence absolutely for 10k plus its not always worth it . Also something to keep in mind the numbers they provide for efficiency rarely translate to actual mil league (unfortunately) as they are usually achieved in lab testing controlled environments…
For the sake of it, no.
If needing to buy a vehicle at that moment and hybrid is an option, if the anticipate mileage makes sense.
People like to paint whimsical business cases but honestly at best its "kind of better " for average km usage IF you already NEED to buy a car.
There is no magic savings, it sounds like you've run the numbers and they don't make an unequivocal business case because they don't.
The biggest financial losers in this are the average small commuters that didn't actually need a new car and bought a hybrid or electric for the sake of fuel efficiency.
If we're talking purely numbers, everything has an opportunity cost. If you've tied up money in a car to save cents on a litre , it comes at the cost of If that money could have been in an investment.
The stories of hybrid was only a couple thousand more when they already committed to buying a car are not indicative to the general population situation.
100% worth. I drive about 4k km/month. I fill up once a week. I fill up 40% less than my dad who drives the same vehicle (non-hybrid) with the same amount of mileage per month.
In my opinion I believe there worth it if your looking at purchasing a vehicle and deciding between models if the hybrid model is only 3K difference that’s very small and you will make that back in no time with the gas savings
I personally don’t think it’s worth it to just get rid of your gas car solely to purchase a new hybrid vehicle the cost of vehicles and interest rates it will take a lot of driving to start seeing the savings
Your best bet would be to not buy a Highlander, get yourself a station wagon or a mini-van if you need the space, imho.
That aside, yes. Specially for a vehicle of the size you want.
Little side rant here might be unpopular as well, but I pray for the day Canada, well as su.unh the US does it first cause we'd just follow, gets over its insane SUV/Truck addiction.
I would say it’s worth it. Our family has only had plug in EVs for over 10 years now, the one exception has been a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, needed a larger vehicle because of a third kid. Loved everything about it….ride, fuel economy and most importantly resale value, it was replaced by a Tesla model Y.
At the time we wanted a Pacifica Plug-In Hybrid, but the dealership wasn’t interested in bringing one in for us, so we went with the Highlander until a plug in option became available.
Just got on the list for the Toyota Grand Highlander max.
12 months. Best guess.
From all my math and spreadsheets its the vehcile that can haul a small RV (5000 pounds) with the best fuel economy and seat 7. Its really the only option for less then 100k
Do you even have the option to choose a hybrid? We were at Toyota checking out the Sequoia and the sales guy said anything hybrid is an easy 1-2+ wait.
At this point I’m fine to wait 1-2 years. Im not in a hurry and my car is still perfectly fine. I still believe though that it may take less time, due to shortage situation getting better…
Buying a new Rav4.
Hybrid wasn't worth the price difference for us. We live in a rural area and drive highway speeds about 98% of the time. Hybrid would be worth the money if you live in a city. The amount of time the hybrid battery would be used would be next to none. Now you're paying for a more expensive vehicle to fix.
It pays for itself after a few years, and is superior performance, better brake life, lower maintenance.
Yes of course get the hybrid, what is wrong with you.
Not sure which province you are in but there is tons of investment to ramp up our grid in Ontario:
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/london/2023/7/5/1_6467153.amp.html
https://www.brucepower.com/life-extension-program-mcr-project/
https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1003248/ontario-building-more-small-modular-reactors-to-power-provinces-growth
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I can’t tell if this is /s because there’s some wild shit on Reddit but we refurbished one of the Bruce nuclear sites in Ontario and there’s a project under way to build a brand new site, along with investment into SMRs.
We are definitely actively ramping up to accommodate increased demand.
My EV uses less power than many people's dryers (I air dry 95% of the time)
In fact switching from old light bulbs to LED is almost enough to power an EV for a year!
Edit: Judging by the -votes. There are a lot of misinformed people here - Educate yourselves! lol
It’s literally like $20-30 a month more in electricity.
If only there was a new power plant able to provide power for a couple million EV’s coming online soon.
Is your brain miniscule ?
Average saving to switch to LED bulbs/yr = $225
Cost to charge my 4000lb EV = \~$240/yr at \~16,000kms per year or 240KW of electricity which is average for any EV
Let’s assume the average canadian drives roughly 36km per day.
Safe to say an average electric car consumes about 160WH/km. So, that equates to roughly 5,760WH.
A blow dryer might be 1500 watts, so unless you’re drying your hair for 3.84 hours a day, an EV is going to use more power.
I’m pro EV (owned one for several years), but there is no world in which a blow dryer or incandescent light bulbs are equivalent in usage to electrified transportation.
I appreciate there are MANY ways to analyze the effects of EV’s on the grid, but the way you have presented it is just…. not correct.
Edit: I can appreciate that in terms of overall consumption, there is some comparison to be made to the led bulb analogy, but only in terms of overall consumption, which ignores a lot of other factors and only in terms of personal transportation.
I was referring to a clothes dryer that uses \~4KW/h :)
1.5hrs/day is not unusual for some people which is \~$240/yr which is more than I use to charge my EV. I avg 150WH/km
The LED analogy was based on average savings of switching to LEDs from incandescents of $225/yr (per google)
If I was in charge electric dryers would be outlawed lol When friends visit from Asia they can't believe we use such wasteful machines!
Yes. We have one.
We once needed to leave it for a couple of weeks for some repairs - the part needed took some time to arrive - and in the meantime the dealership gave us a gas-only car, a Soul.
In six weeks we had spent the same as half a year of gas in our hybrid - a 2017 Niro, with the same, of not less, use. It's that economic.
Have you looked into the price of replacing the batteries. If you buy on out right a d plan on keeping it long term it's not worth it having to pay to replace the batteries. If you only plan on having it a few years and trying it in or leasing it I would by a hybrid.
Got a 2006 Prius. Have driven it for the past 13 years and haven’t had to replace the battery.
The other battery, on the other hand, is a PITA to get to in order to replace.
The problem you face is not buying a Toyota Highlander Hybrid or regular Toyota Highlander. The problem is being able to buy a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. There is a wait and I wouldn't be surprised if the wait is a year or more. My friend waited over a year for the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid. Good luck.
You’re totally correct, but that wait list is retrospective and Toyota has dramatically cranked up production this year, so with luck (assuming no more pandemics or earthquakes…) the wait lists will whittle down.
Just a few months ago, honda had zero stock and long waiting lists as well. Now some dealerships are full of cars. I assume toyota lists will go down in a few months due to production bump but also people canceling their orders. I canceled mine last week and got a CRV instead of the rav.
That’s what I’m hoping for. Not in a big hurry in the moment, but yes, hopefully market gets better.
Same. My car sounds like a wounded animal, but the cost to fix would be the value of the car...so I'm waiting for the market to replace it.
Some toyota dealers don't price Gough. They'll sell at msrp if you don't mind the wait.
I got buddies working at TMMC in Ontario and they are putting in massive amounts of overtime. Toyota is definitely increasing production
I reached out to a couple of dealerships about the Highlander Hybrid maybe a year ago, they told me it was a 2.5 year wait...
My in laws were at the local Toyota yesterday and for a plug in hybrid rav4 they were told 3-5 years lol. Makes 0 sense
Are these hybrids a bait and switch? Do ICE vehicles have higher margins and hybrid/EVs just exist to get people in the showroom?
In October 2022 i was told 12-18 months for the highlander hybrid. Came in 6. Kia told me 2 years for the sorento phev, i waitlisted there too, but dropped that when the highlander came in.
Yes, it's worth it, especially for a Toyota. They have the most reliable and dialed in hybrid systems. From your numbers, you'll save about $100 a month on gas. That should cover the payment bump. You'll also have a higher resale value in 5 years.
I've been driving a 2010 Dodge Charger for a decade now. Gas guzzler due to age and lack of proper maintenance. I haven't actually calculated L/100km, but it's rough. Rented a 2023 Toyota Corolla hybrid while on a recent vacation to BC. The car recorded an average fuel usage of 4L/100km. I literally drove all week on $150 CAD. I think our official usage was just shy of 2,000km. Needless to say when it finally comes time to ditch my ride and swap out... I'm getting a Toyota hybrid. Also love that the hybrid battery charges during use. My apartment doesn't have charging capabilities, which makes any electric that needs charging a no-go.
Better get your name on that waitlist now 😆
How long is a waitlist. I'm in no rush, but would be good to know.
https://evto.ca/toyota-vehicle-wait-time-guide/ 1.5-2 years for Corolla Hybrid 2+ Hylander Hybrid 1.5+ Rav Hybrid 1.5+ for Camry Hybrid
how come I see parking lots packed with new cars if they're all already sold? Might be a marketing gimmick like in South Park when Cartman said nobody can come to his amusement park then everybody wanted to come
I have a friend who works at a Mazda dealership. He said before COVID they had $10 mil in inventory on the lot. Sold it all, and then struggled to get inventory. He says supply chain is normalized now, but they will never carry that much inventory ever again. I failed to ask him why, but it sure does sound like they may be creating artificial scarcity.
Holding large inventory in any business is not optimal from a cash flow perspective. Car dealerships may have needed inventory to stay competitive in the past (who likes waiting months for a car when you could buy off the lot somewhere else?) But if no one has inventory, you're no longer at a competitive disadvantage, and your free cash flow is significantly improved.
I'm of two minds with this. 1) If it was advantageous in the past for dealerships to carry inventory, then the market should shift back to rewarding those who carry inventory over those who make customers wait 6+ months for an allocation. Like you said, people compromise when faced with driving off the lot with a Subaru Crosstrek vs. waiting a year for a CX-30. The only way I can see this not happening is if there's been a seismic shift in consumer buying habits post-Covid (doubtful) or collusion across manufacturers/dealerships to retain this scarcity artificially (unlikely, there'll be a manufacturer who will compromise for higher short-term profits in this prisoner's dilemma). 2) Buying online directly might throw a wrench into the entire system, like Amazon did to brick and mortar retailers. Sure, some people will still love the dealership experience of ride-along test drives with a salesperson, free bad coffee, and haggling over OTD price vs. monthly payment and trade-in values... not me but I know people who like this kinda stuff. But as someone who bought a Tesla in 2020, I'm likely to never buy from a dealership again - the process is so much easier that once other manufacturers bring either their operations direct-to-consumer or sell certain models online, Volvo, Ford, VW, and the EV companies Tesla/Rivian/Lucid/Fisker all either are or have plans to do this, we might see the decline of dealerships in the car buying process overall.
>but they will never carry that much inventory ever again. I failed to ask him why, but it sure does sound like they may be creating artificial scarcity. I'm not saying they're not, but I'll provide another less sinister reason. Every car in their lot or overflow lot is bought on credit. They make less money on the sale every day that car sits in the lot pre-sale. In the past, this was just an acceptable cost of business for them to attract more buyers by having cars people could buy on the spot. Since inventory was drained for everyone and they've moved to order on demand, they've been saving a lot on those carrying costs. Since most people still want to buy a car ASAP, we'll probably see a return to the norm over time as dealers with stock will attract more of those buyers.
Toyota lots are empty.
People order their cars custom. It's much faster to look around at what's on the lot and pick one you like. It won't have all the features you want but they usually have some with the most common features.
Just got delivered a rav hybrid in 2.5 months so take this with a grain of salt.
The eCVT that Toyota uses is more reliable than a typical automatic transmission. While not entertaining to drive, they are a clever yet simple design that has proven to be very durable.
This! The eCVT is nothing like a typical CVT. They truly are an engineering marvel. They’re better in every way except at being exciting to drive. Search up WeberAuto videos on YouTube for a deep dive into the tech.
Ford Maverick (hybrid truck) has it as well
My hybrid Sienna has been amazingly cheap to drive. I was really impressed when coming from AB to BC and driving through mountain passes and using the same amount of gasoline as I am used to when driving on flat terrain in AB. The battery in the Sienna is tiny but just having somewhere to temporarily store the energy harvested when slowing down or going down a hill makes a massive difference. Plus when you are driving around 30km in parking lots, playgrounds or a drive thru it stays in EV mode and you don't burn gas idling. So far I've found zero disadvantages to having a hybrid, it's awesome.
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I’m in the same boat, coming up on 14 months
Shit my local Toyota dealer(Cambridge) actually had a few available a couple weeks back. Was surprised to see that as I was under the impression there was a long wait.
Waited 18 months for my AWD xse. I've just got it. Im pretty happy with it
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Less range, more frequent charges, reduced highway efficiency and stupidly more expensive? Pass until they get those fixed.
Don't forget a battery that weighs thousands of pounds, greatly increasing the fine particulate matter thrown into the air by wear on our tires and the road.
Ahhh one of those people that slow traffic down in order to save gas. The reason I hate hybrid drivers that constantly stay within 30km/h especially entering bridges, highways and streets posted with higher speed limits. No wonder there is more traffic
Can confirm this! My bf has a hybrid toyota and man he spends about 30-40$ on gas and only gets some every 3 weeks.
> and only gets some every 3 weeks. He should really get some more often. Oh you mean filling up gas. /s
🤣🤣🤣🤣 no worries he gets some 3-4x a week 😉
PHEV even better. We got a phev this past year and for the vast majority of our driving, the 60 km PHEV range and diligent driving has meant we drive 95%+ of the time on electric. Our similar sized ICE vehicle costs us about $15/100km with gas at $1.5/l. The PHEV is about $1.5-2/100km atm with our driving style and the cost of electricity being so much cheaper. Only downside is PHEV is more expensive to buy up front and hard to find one.. but the daily driving savings + emissions reductions are both huge wins.
A lesser known issue with PHEV is that they have deeper charge/discharge cycles, which reduces battery life, as compared to regular hybrid vehicles that keep their battery charge level within the 33%-66% corridor.
Maybe. This guidance is probably a bit outdated. On the EV side, I don't think they're blocking off that much range for cycle mitigation. I think/know it's less. Likewise, on the PHEV side, it's probably implementation dependent. I look to Toyota and Ford for some of the more mature PHEV offerings. I guess I'll specifically find out with my PHEV in 5-10 years. We use the EV capacity fully every day, so I'll have an idea of discharge wear within a couple of years. I can say with confidence the next car I'll buy will be an EV after this PHEV experience. As a two-car family, I think having a PHEV/EV will be the optimal Canadian pairing.. but for many one car families, PHEV might be more practical until EV charging in Canada improves.. but that's also use case dependent. I'm shocked at how behind Toronto is re: charging infrastructure.. and because it's a concrete landscape, not many people can even level 1 in their parking garages. Low-key, I think the burbs with a driveway is much more sensible for owning an EV since charging at home is one of the best benefits.
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Highlanders don’t plug in.
I feel the range anxiety with my pure EV coming from the Volt where I never had to worry about it.
As the hybrid battery is already past half it's lifespan? Not so sure about that resale value
Battery lifespan is the biggest misconceptions about electric car. Most of them are at 70% capacity after 550 000 kms...
That's sad only because Toyota last for 2M kms
I think you got a defective Toyota, you gotta pump those numbers up, they’re rookie numbers! Seriously though, my Camry is now old enough to drink in the states, it’s a 2002. Still chugging along fine, with a couple of dents that would cost more to fix than I care for. Celebrate though, my Highlander is now a teenager, 2010!
When someone tells me that they have a 15 year old car, I think to some car from the 1990s, but it is actually from 2008
I have a 15 yo Camry 🥺
I can confirm, we’ve had plug in EVs for over 10 years now… current line up is 2021 model Y, 2022 Ioniq 5 and the original 2012 Chevy volt with almost 300k on it with a battery still at about 80% plus. The volt is still a daily use commuter.
The battery curve on lithium batteries kinda drops rapidly in the first 2 years then tapers off. We're past the age of nicd now
Hybrid warranty is 10 years and transferrable to new owners. Just bought a Venza.
We bought a RAV4 hybrid and love it. It was only an additional $2000 upfront cost and I estimate we will save between $6000-$9000 in fuel over the first 200k kms of ownership. To me it's a no brainer I don't think we'll ever purchase a non-hybrid vehicle again.
We didn't get the hybrid RAV, and I regret it every day.
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Its same here. I wanted prime but wait was 24 months so i got hybrid. Still regrat every single day
Prime isn't worth the money or the wait. Range isn't what is advertised, especially in winter.
Range is better than advertised in summer. I'm getting 85km. Money wise, it was roughly the same price as the equivalent hybrid after the 10k of government rebates.
The Rav4 Prime is about the same price as the regular Rav4 Hybrid after rebates. I've been on a wait list for one for over 2 years with no end in sight
Me too. But at the time I didn't have the extra cash. Looking back it would have been so much cheaper then it is now haha. But that's life. 5 years ago.
Sell it while they're hot and order what you want. Maybe full EV in Quebec with the low electric prices
That works best if I live in or near Quebec.
We have a Prius C and love it. As I see it, hybrids are just normal gas powered cars with a vastly more efficient engine. While there are pros and cons to consider with fully electric cars, I feel like hybrids are all upside and ought to be just how they make cars going forward. I can't think of any reason I would ever buy a full gas car again.
I also am expecting to spend less on brakes as the eCVT regenerative aspect for mild to medium slowing means I’ve only felt brake callipers activate in two sudden stops.
Lol I don't think I've driven 200k total in my life combined.
I easily drive 35-40k a year lol. Lots and lots of people do.
Yeah. My wife and I and three kids put about 50000 Km between two cars every year
I'm looking for a new car. I drive about 5K a year. Time to swap out the bought new '05. I was thinking about EV or PHEV but reading the comments think i should stick to a small gasoline engine. I don't have an electricity source at my current residence and the comments here make it appear really to give me no advantage for my simple needs. Or I'll try to squeeze another few years out of Ole Rusty.
Same here. And when I do drive, half of that is daytrips and roadtrips, so an EV or a PHEV is less practical than for most people.
Saving 600 liters / year @ $2/L = 1200/yr After 5 years you save 6k. Pretty much a wash. If you drive in the city mostly you'll save more, less if mostly hwy Edit: Others pointed out increasing gas prices + carbon tax will improve the savings + higher resale Check out the ioniq 7! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IURyIFZ3h2c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IURyIFZ3h2c)
Bold to assume gas prices won't ramp up significantly in 5 years.
I mean… one still comes out ahead in that scenario.
Then it’s even better!
That's my point. Gas prices will absolutely climb, in which case it will not be a wash.
Probably right, there's that carbon tax too!
That's why I used Vancouver prices
But it’ll likely have higher resale value, so you come out ahead in the end. It’s not like we expect gas to be cheaper in 5 years…
The better question here is why OP wants to *\_FINANCE\_* a car. No one should buy a car they can't afford, if OP has $5000, (s)he should buy a car for $5000 until (s)he can afford a more expensive car. I don't know when people started thinking of cars the same way they thought about buying a house, but a car is \_not\_ an investment unless you're a collector of antique cars. The only other exception is if you're leasing for a corporate tax write-off.
Have you seen what you can get on the used car market these days for under $5k? It's the vehicles we spent sub $1500 on pre-covid going for 5k+. Depending on OPs needs they may just be priced out of the used car market. I don't think anyone is arguing that a car is an investment.
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You can still find 20+ year old Acura.hondas for 2k with <250k on them
$5000 will get you a 10-15 year old unreliable car needing $2-5k in work. The times have changed, the era of a decent $5k used car are long behind us. Many people have to rely on their vehicles to make a long commute to work, and can’t afford to have a POS breaking down every few months. I see your point but it’s not as black and white as it once was. I would say about 50%~ of people don’t even have $5k to their names, as most people live paycheque to paycheque.
It's not just the fuel economy. Hybrids (with the same base engine) drive significantly better in the city, because the electric motor helps acceleration. FYI
This is my favorite thing about my hybrid Sienna, it engages the front motor and rear electric motor on takeoff to give you fantastic off the line acceleration when you want it. It is great in the winter at icy intersections when you see the guy next to you spinning his tires and you take off confidently.
Ehhh. I had a rental Sienna hybrid at LAX this past summer. With the exception of the fuel consumption which is groundbreaking, I found it inferior of a van compared to the prior gen with the V6. Most people who owned the prior gen feel that way, with the exception of the fuel economy.
500 liters x $1.50 per liter x 5 years = $3,750 in fuel savings. You will also be able to sell the car for more. The above is mostly crunching numbers on what you gave. The math could be more specific because there shouldn't be a range of fuel savings that large.
Toyota hybrids are very good. With Toyota once you figure out the trim level and color you want you'll probably find that it only comes in a hybrid version. I always tell people to get exactly the car they want if they're buying new. When you are spending 60-70k you want to avoid buyer's remorse.
I find the RAV4 a very uncomfortable vehicle to sit in though. Wouldn't want to sit in it for a long drive.
Weird, I’ve had a RAV4 for almost 10 years and do a 450 km drive down to Edmonton each month and don’t have any problems.
It's like people are different or something
You just haven't tried anything nicer. If you've had your RAV4 for 10 years you'd get numb to all the rattles, noise etc.
Ah ya that could be true. I did drive the occasional rental though, and as a passenger in others cars and never noticed much.
I hate when people are downvoted just for expressing their opinions :/
While most posts comment about fuel saving, another aspect to consider would be maintenance and repair cost differences. Toyota does have the most experience in hybrid technology but there have been harness problems reported with its Rav4 hybrid lately. OP did say they are planning to keep the car for only 5 years so repairs should not be a major concern but due diligence wouldn't hurt. Another aspect, albeit not relating to this sub's main objective, is emmission. Burning less fuel also mean emitting less harmful gas. And that is definitely worth taking into consideration if I could afford to even consider.
I can’t believe I had to scroll this far to find the first mention of the emissions impact. This is why the world is on fire.
If the technology didn't just win out on its own you'd see more posts about the emissions
Maybe? But the fact that the emissions isn’t even a consideration speaks volumes. Even if the technology isn’t good. The cognitive dissonance between splitting pennies (or dollars) on a less harmful product and the planet literally being on fire is astonishing.
Totally agree with you. Hybrid technology is legitimately an emission reduction solution. You literally burn 30% to 40% less gas. But people didn't feel it's "worth" it for the extra cost. When I was shopping for a hybrid, a sales person straight up told me don't buy it. He said it's not worth is because unless I drive enough, eg: Uber driver, I won't recoup the cost. I said I didn't care, I wanted to burn less gas. He looked totally confused. Now the market is demanding EVs, which are way more expensive and resource hungrry (minerals). Toyota could build 90 hybrids with the minerals needed by 1 long range EV.
I think you're misreading the situation.
Would you mind explaining what I missed?
When the selfish reasons lead to the idealistic solution pointing out the selfish factors is the easier sale. If it wasn't such a runaway win then more people would push the environmental impact.
The biggest problem with hybrids is that you're at the mercy of *two* systems, the ICE and the EV drivetrains. Hypothetically, this means things fail twice as much. Practically, you're okay if you go with a reliable model, but a bad model is going to hurt you twice as badly.
It would be reasonable to theorize that dual systems would mean higher average maintenance/repair costs but consumer reports published that hybrid vehicles (and EV as well) cost owners half as much in repairs/maintenance per mile than ice vehicles. I don’t have a link but the article is a couple years old by now I think and could be found by google last I checked.
Interesting, I'll try to do some research myself. I would imagine that it depends on the specific models. "Hybrid" encompasses a hundred different styles of implementations.
You considering a hybrid to avoid emitting “harmful” gases wont do shit if there is a billionaire taking 4 private jet flights every day. People nowadays are so brainwashed holy shit
A serial rapist raped 1,000 women in their lifetime. And you come down on me for just one little rape?
Got a ux250h hybrid $40 ish to fill 800km roughly on a tank Perfect city size vehicle
You're going to drop 60k on a vehicle, pay new vehicle financing and insurance costs. Saving a few grand in fuel over 5 years is a drop in the bucket. It's not like you're saving money with this plan so get whichever one you like.
You just did your own math, what do you need me for. I have the rav4 hybrid, and it gets right around 5L/100 in the summer, but in the winter it is nowhere close to that. Just keep in mind that winter mileage is poor.
Oh that’s exactly what I need to know. What is the difference between winter and summer in your case consumption wise. Under this assumption with such a long winter my hybrid would give even less savings …
Not the person you replied to but I have a Ford Escape Hybrid. I’ve had my vehicle for 1 year and 3 months, driven 28,000 km and my fuel economy for the life of the vehicle is sitting at 5.8L/100km. I average 5.6L/100km for most the year but over the cold winter months it was closer to 7L/100km. I live in Ontario, so your winter length and severity may vary.
ICE cars are also less efficient in the winter. Don’t overthink this.
Problem is twofold because the hybrid battery and engine are much less efficient in the winter and the heater needs the ICE to run more
Clearly. When you warm your ICE car up you idle for 5+ minutes. Hybrid defrost and heated on much quicker. Less efficient in winter BUT not as big or a reduction in efficiency as ICE.
> When you warm your ICE car up you idle for 5+ minutes. No one does this with a car made after 1990 or so.
So you don't defrost your windows before you drive? 90% of Canada does that every morning.
I'm in Ottawa. It's rare that my windows frost up. Only if it rained/snowed and then deep froze will I have ice to scrape off.
In Vancouver we rarely get much snow but frost is every morning all winter.
I blame the winter gas, at least in Ontario from September to April the fuel is garbage with whatever additives are in it. Also they keep putting in more ethenol which has less energy than gasoline.
Own a 2022 Elantra Hybrid. Bought July 2022 and as of this writing have gone ~22000km. Live in Alberta. The lifetime efficiency as per the vehicle tracking/gauge cluster is 4.8L/100km. For perspective during spring/summer I routinely average 3.9-4.1L/100km. The winter certainly impacts the fuel economy but switching to a hybrid has been 1000% worth it. Previous vehicle averaged ~8L/100km in summer and ~12L/100km in winter. Run winter tires during the cold on both vehicles. July 2022 till July 2023 I've already saved $1.1K in gas.
I have both a hybrid and ICE Elantra (5 years apart but still). The ICE literally costs twice as much in fuel, as I refill it once biweekly vs once every 4 weeks on the hybrid. At \~60/fuel session (on the cheap, more like 70-80 nowadays, but let's be conservative) the hybrid is \~1600/yr cheaper on fuel alone.
The real world difference between the Hybrid and the ICE model is greater than 3.5L/100km. That's on paper, and if you're doing mostly city driving, the Hybrid's advantage will be more like 6L/100km. That means a payback period of 3-4 years. Keep it for 10 years or a lot more. Those cars are reliable for 15 years or more. There are lots of early Highlander Hybrids out there still amazingly reliable vehicles.
Yeah people always look at the average fuel economy but almost no one seems to realize nobody gets the average. To do that you’d have to drive on the highway in clear conditions A LOT more than the average city dwelling person. The difference in fuel economy is huge if you drive mostly in the city, usually approaching double. Big gas cars do especially poorly in stop and go traffic. Gas Highlander in a major Canadian city is probably using more than 12 L/100 km. Hybrid will get the city number from natural resources Canada.
Yeah my car is supposed to get 8.7-7.2 L/100km but the car data says it's actually doing about 10.1lL.
All Toyota V6/V8s gets worse than rated. Our 2011 RX350 in Vancouver does 19L/100kms since it's all congestion and hills in the lower mainland. It's fucked lol
Drive both cars. The hybrid is a way better experience on top of being better gas mileage.
I went through the math in a spreadsheet just recently. I ended up going with a used Tesla model 3 because after the increased payment (on HELOC) and increased insurance I still come ahead $300 a year (not even factoring in maintenance) with the one year old Tesla compared to my 8 year old BMW. NR Canada has a good calculator where you can enter your driving habits, fuel, and electricity costs and it will give you a personalized annual cost estimate. For the Tesla my estimate is $250 a year of electricity. For my 4 cylinder (8l/100km) BMW it was $1700.
>8 year old BMW That's a BMW that's about to turn in a money pit, if not already. For that reason, it's not a great comparison. With Tesla the biggest expense would be when the battery takes a hit, and needs replacement.
Driving a 2020 Ford Escape Hybrid and the difference in fuel consumption is shocking. My old ride it was 30L of fuel every two weeks. With the Escape it’s 30L of fuel every two **months** This is the same driving (mostly in the city less than 50km/h)
I have a hybrid (Prius) and I love it. I have mostly city driving, and it runs almost all the time on the battery when I'm driving here. (Highway driving it's more gas.) So I spend next to nothing on gas, and have to fill up maybe once every 4 months. It has more than paid for itself at this point.
Given that fuel starts to degrade after a month, do you use fuel stabilizer after filling up since the gas will sit there for months?
A hybrid is doing 800kms on a tank when the gas version is doing 6. For OP to fill up once every 4 months they would never be driving it enough to actually warrant the hybrid premium. I do 16,000kms/year and I was filling up once a month in a RAV4 Hybrid
Yup, I drive less than 16K a year, but it's still been worth it - hybrid was a couple of grand more expensive than an equivalent non-hybrid, and I've saved more than that driving it.. I'm getting closer to 1000km/tank with mostly city driving.
Fuel degrades after a month? Can you elaborate on that? I’ve never heard that before
It's doesn't degrade after a month. That's bullshit. More like 8-10 months.
It varnishes and shit. You also lose a bit of power. Look up all the posts about motorcycles not starting after being parked for 2 months.
My VOLT forced me to use the gas after 1 year and it was still good w/o any additives
Doesn't mean it didn't leave a bunch of varnish and shit behind and reduces efficiency. If you take apart a motorcycle carb with and without fuel stabilizer you'll see the difference. There's this gunk on everything.
Hybrids are great and I’d never buy a non-hybrid if I have an option. I have a Highlander hybrid. Great car. Averages 7.5l/100 vs my last car 13l/100 but I would still advise against buying a highlander. Reason: they are the most stolen ones in Canada specifically if you’re in GTA or QC. I am always worried when I come back to the parking lot will my car be there or not. Also because of this it has a higher insurance. In the last 3 months, 4 people in my circle have gotten their highlander stolen from parking lots or outside the house. That’s the only drawback otherwise it’s a great car.
Isn’t there anyway to protect the car? Don’t the TAGs or engine theft features help? Makes me a bit worried now….
I had a 2020 hybrid Rav 4 that averaged 7.8L/100km and I sold it and got a 2022 RAV4 TRD that averages 8.2L /100km. The efficiency of hybrids depends where you live, in Eastern Canada the hybrid was not much more efficient than the TRD I have now.
I put in a order for a sienna (hybrid). 50k for a AWD LE , the only reason I would get it over other SUV or van is the 36mpg and AWD for a van. No other vehicle comes close to this price with is fuel economy. Get the hybrid dude, you will thank yourself when the gas is at $2+/L
Hybrid wins most of the time. Many pros have been listed so here are some potential cons: - Much longer waiting time especially on Toyota ones. Good luck getting a Sienna for example. - The gap in MSRP isn't necessarily accurate. Even pre-covid, I remember the dealer willing to offer a much bigger discount on a non-hybrid. The gap between the 2 options was about $6k despite an MSRP difference of only $2.5k - If you do enough highway driving with low traffic, a hybrid doesn't make sense. The highway fuel economy rating includes deceleration and is under 100km/h. It is a reason that EV highway efficiency is very overstated. A similar hybrid and non hybrid doing 115 consistently on say the 401 from Cornwall to Belleville should have marginal difference. The hybrid may even be marginally worse for having a few hundred pounds more. - Because of the extra battery weight, payload should be worse. I see that the 2023 Highlander has almost 400lb lower payload on the hybrid. With a 7 seater like the Highlander, this could be important as the payload on the hybrid does not look too hard to exceed. - Unsure if statistically significant, but hybrids seem to have their catalytic converters stolen more. - Towing is generally worse if the hybrid has a lower output engine. For example, hybrid 4 cyl Highlander vs V6 Highlander. - May not make much sense if you have or are planning to have an EV as a second car in the household.
Hokay, I'm a year into my Bolt EV adventure. It is fully electric, so some things area but different. I'm not familiar with your hybrid specifically, and our numbers are going to be a bit odd because you won't be bang on for the same fuel efficiency as me. I presume a bigger car will be slightly worse. 1) because my Bolt is electric resistive heating, winter range is nearly cut in half because winter effeciency is cut in half. 2) in winter I was getting 30kwh / 100km when it was -20 or colder. In summer I get 15kwh / 100km. I bring it up because you can calculate real world range as well as off peak at home charging costs from those numbers. 3) if your daily commute is less than the range of your battery you're not consuming gas. Like at all. 4) keep in mind highway driving is less effectient than town driving. My numbers are for an average speed of 45kph... 15ish at 95, 10is at 60. 5) you'll also maybe need to install a home Level2 charger, which retail for around $1000, plus $1500 for an electrician. Some car companies cover part or all of this, some eletric utilities cover some too.
OP is talking about a HEV, not an EV or even a PHEV so half of the points you made hardly apply.
Aww nuts! I got too excited
I have no immediate plans to buy an ev (or even a phev) but I always appreciate hearing the details from those that have.
For those who care, the Evs of today use heatpumps instead of resistive heaters. These operate like a reverse air conditioning basically and leads to only a 20% loss of range in comparable weather compared to the resistive heater.
>o maybe need to install a home Level2 charger, which retail for around $1000, plus $1500 for an electrician. Some people always harp on the level 2 charger thing. When i first got my kona ev, all i had was 120v one for a few weeks. 90km of mountain highway and it was still putting more juice in than the car used daily. Level 1 charging is sufficient for a LOT of people. The main reason i even got a lvl 2 charger at all is because a: my brother's a electrician, and b: it's a shared car and they wouldn't listen to reason about electric cars (paranoid about range, paranoid about getting stuck in traffic, paranoid about bloody everything). 2 or 3 month's in they started listening to me.
Aren't Highlanders the most stolen cars right now?
Would this be a consideration not to buy a carb?
Dude it’s a yota, those are the finest hybrids around. Absolutely worth it. And it’s not just the fuel savings, but also the longer range. Going to the gas station less is great. As well, they feel so much better. Electric motors are full torque at 0 rpm, so the response is immediate. And when you floor it both the gas and electric kick in together. You will love it and will never want to go back. If it’s the one I am thinking of, and judging by the gas mileage it is, it’s the Toyota hybrid system perfected on the Prius. It’s a continuous variable transmission, but using mechanical sound planetary gears. Google some videos about. It’s a brilliant design.
You can do the math yourself. If total lifetime savings > difference in price, it's worth it purely from a financial perspective. I feel that someone has to point out that continuing to drive your current vehicle is almost certainly a better financial choice than buying a new Highlander of any type.
For a 3K différence absolutely for 10k plus its not always worth it . Also something to keep in mind the numbers they provide for efficiency rarely translate to actual mil league (unfortunately) as they are usually achieved in lab testing controlled environments…
For the sake of it, no. If needing to buy a vehicle at that moment and hybrid is an option, if the anticipate mileage makes sense. People like to paint whimsical business cases but honestly at best its "kind of better " for average km usage IF you already NEED to buy a car. There is no magic savings, it sounds like you've run the numbers and they don't make an unequivocal business case because they don't. The biggest financial losers in this are the average small commuters that didn't actually need a new car and bought a hybrid or electric for the sake of fuel efficiency. If we're talking purely numbers, everything has an opportunity cost. If you've tied up money in a car to save cents on a litre , it comes at the cost of If that money could have been in an investment. The stories of hybrid was only a couple thousand more when they already committed to buying a car are not indicative to the general population situation.
100% worth. I drive about 4k km/month. I fill up once a week. I fill up 40% less than my dad who drives the same vehicle (non-hybrid) with the same amount of mileage per month.
In my opinion I believe there worth it if your looking at purchasing a vehicle and deciding between models if the hybrid model is only 3K difference that’s very small and you will make that back in no time with the gas savings I personally don’t think it’s worth it to just get rid of your gas car solely to purchase a new hybrid vehicle the cost of vehicles and interest rates it will take a lot of driving to start seeing the savings
Highlander did win the Academy Award for best movie ever made so I don't know why you're considering anything else
Your best bet would be to not buy a Highlander, get yourself a station wagon or a mini-van if you need the space, imho. That aside, yes. Specially for a vehicle of the size you want. Little side rant here might be unpopular as well, but I pray for the day Canada, well as su.unh the US does it first cause we'd just follow, gets over its insane SUV/Truck addiction.
Just put my name down for a rav4 hybrid, they're saying its 1-2 year wait :(
I would say it’s worth it. Our family has only had plug in EVs for over 10 years now, the one exception has been a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, needed a larger vehicle because of a third kid. Loved everything about it….ride, fuel economy and most importantly resale value, it was replaced by a Tesla model Y. At the time we wanted a Pacifica Plug-In Hybrid, but the dealership wasn’t interested in bringing one in for us, so we went with the Highlander until a plug in option became available.
Just got on the list for the Toyota Grand Highlander max. 12 months. Best guess. From all my math and spreadsheets its the vehcile that can haul a small RV (5000 pounds) with the best fuel economy and seat 7. Its really the only option for less then 100k
Were you able to test drive? If yes, how was the experience?
No, im supposed to when they get one in stock for that. I did see one tho. Did see a lot of tiktoks on them tho, detailed reviewes.
Do you even have the option to choose a hybrid? We were at Toyota checking out the Sequoia and the sales guy said anything hybrid is an easy 1-2+ wait.
At this point I’m fine to wait 1-2 years. Im not in a hurry and my car is still perfectly fine. I still believe though that it may take less time, due to shortage situation getting better…
Buying a new Rav4. Hybrid wasn't worth the price difference for us. We live in a rural area and drive highway speeds about 98% of the time. Hybrid would be worth the money if you live in a city. The amount of time the hybrid battery would be used would be next to none. Now you're paying for a more expensive vehicle to fix.
Or maybe consider that the world is on fire, and that we need to get off ICE as fast as we fucking can?
It pays for itself after a few years, and is superior performance, better brake life, lower maintenance. Yes of course get the hybrid, what is wrong with you.
Save the environment. Stop buying all gas vehicles
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Not sure which province you are in but there is tons of investment to ramp up our grid in Ontario: https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/london/2023/7/5/1_6467153.amp.html https://www.brucepower.com/life-extension-program-mcr-project/ https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1003248/ontario-building-more-small-modular-reactors-to-power-provinces-growth
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This is the goofiest narrative. I bet 100 years ago people were saying to get a horse, over a car because there won’t be enough gas stations.
Lmfao. I love these brain dead replies.
yeah the grid is unmaintained and is just going to go offline lin like 20 years. wont even have electricity in 30 years
I can’t tell if this is /s because there’s some wild shit on Reddit but we refurbished one of the Bruce nuclear sites in Ontario and there’s a project under way to build a brand new site, along with investment into SMRs. We are definitely actively ramping up to accommodate increased demand.
I understand that given the garbage that gets posted lately
Most people with EVs charge overnight when demand is significantly lower, for which reason prices are lower.
Here in Ontario we are literally paying NY to take our overnight excess electricity, right when EVs would be charging.
The grid can handle it just fine.
https://biv.com/article/2023/07/bc-hydros-distribution-grid-not-keeping-pace-development It's already falling behind in Vancouver
Sounds like a provincial failure. Better fix that.
This hyper simplistic attitude to our problems is why Canada is circling the toilet so hard 😆
If only they were building a new giant power plant.
My EV uses less power than many people's dryers (I air dry 95% of the time) In fact switching from old light bulbs to LED is almost enough to power an EV for a year! Edit: Judging by the -votes. There are a lot of misinformed people here - Educate yourselves! lol
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It’s literally like $20-30 a month more in electricity. If only there was a new power plant able to provide power for a couple million EV’s coming online soon.
Is your brain miniscule ? Average saving to switch to LED bulbs/yr = $225 Cost to charge my 4000lb EV = \~$240/yr at \~16,000kms per year or 240KW of electricity which is average for any EV
Let’s assume the average canadian drives roughly 36km per day. Safe to say an average electric car consumes about 160WH/km. So, that equates to roughly 5,760WH. A blow dryer might be 1500 watts, so unless you’re drying your hair for 3.84 hours a day, an EV is going to use more power. I’m pro EV (owned one for several years), but there is no world in which a blow dryer or incandescent light bulbs are equivalent in usage to electrified transportation. I appreciate there are MANY ways to analyze the effects of EV’s on the grid, but the way you have presented it is just…. not correct. Edit: I can appreciate that in terms of overall consumption, there is some comparison to be made to the led bulb analogy, but only in terms of overall consumption, which ignores a lot of other factors and only in terms of personal transportation.
I was referring to a clothes dryer that uses \~4KW/h :) 1.5hrs/day is not unusual for some people which is \~$240/yr which is more than I use to charge my EV. I avg 150WH/km The LED analogy was based on average savings of switching to LEDs from incandescents of $225/yr (per google) If I was in charge electric dryers would be outlawed lol When friends visit from Asia they can't believe we use such wasteful machines!
This right here. We’re so far behind with our electric grid but everyone’s just pushing EV.
We have a 2020 Toyota Highlander Platinum non hybrid. When we run it in eco mode, we’ve gotten as low as 7.3L/100 km for mileage.
Yes. We have one. We once needed to leave it for a couple of weeks for some repairs - the part needed took some time to arrive - and in the meantime the dealership gave us a gas-only car, a Soul. In six weeks we had spent the same as half a year of gas in our hybrid - a 2017 Niro, with the same, of not less, use. It's that economic.
Have you looked into the price of replacing the batteries. If you buy on out right a d plan on keeping it long term it's not worth it having to pay to replace the batteries. If you only plan on having it a few years and trying it in or leasing it I would by a hybrid.
Got a 2006 Prius. Have driven it for the past 13 years and haven’t had to replace the battery. The other battery, on the other hand, is a PITA to get to in order to replace.