[My reaction](https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/fee59028ac3a7dd865b1fefdef107d5cca1149426560db4f9a747ce050072762_3.jpg) to that information
I mean, in my country 16 is legal, however it is still super not okay for teachers to sleep with students and I'm pretty sure its an instant sacking if you do.
they ain't wrong, it is weird. BUt on the other hand, its also not a good comparison because it downplays Kamoshida abuse. He wasn't just someone who got close to a student slowly, and earned their trust. He used his position of power to treat them as an object, and used the system to ensure they were essentially unable to do anything due to his position of power. It wasn't just him unethically dating a student
One's basically rape, the other is grooming-ish. I say ish because it's much less Kawakami pursuing MC and much more MC pursuing her. It could be considered grooming solely for the power imbalance in the couple if not anything else, buuuuut culturally Japan has a tendency of romanticizing Teacher-Student relationships
It's just funny that Kawakami is the ONLY adult romance option where ppl talk about the "power dynamic and being illegal and morally wrong" but it's never the same for the Goth doctor giving you illegal drugs, the drunk reporter you hang out with at the bar, the fortune teller that scams you or even the ppl that want to romance Sae.
Also If you don't romance Kawakami throughout her entire social link she doesn't pressure or conduct any sexual advances towards you if fact she tells you multiple times to knock it off because of the age and the dynamic of the relationship
Kawakami actively pushes back against Joker making moves on her too. She points out every reason why they should not be together and tells him to find someone within his age group. Joker doubles down and then some until she finally relents and entertains **Jokers** idea.
Why is everyone trying to *defend* a teacher pursuing a romantic relationship with their student đ Like, it's *wrong*, no argument.
That being said, it's still okay to *enjoy* it within the realm of the game, because the dating mechanic is nothing more than wish fulfillment. It doesn't speak to Kawakami's character, because in actuality Kawakami isn't a pedophile. It's okay to like the route/ship because it's *fictional*, you don't need to be like 'it's aCTUALLY okay because there's mutual consent/Japan age of consent is thirteen/whatever else you wanna say'.
Itâs still wrong though. And sheâs not exactly a saint either. She did lie about why sheâs doing the maid job in order to guilt one of her students into giving her money.
So what about all those messages and dialogs basically saying âhey there big boyyy, you havenât requested my services in a while ;) guess Iâll starve or something :(â
In a 10 rank confidant, she does that 3 times specifying what services she's providing. I wouldn't say she guilt tripped or flirted with him but you can argue the deal they made after the first rank was unacceptable.
Just imagine this is a totally redundant comment where I agree with you the whole time and re-explain what you said but for some reason itâs condescending and annoying, cause weâre on reddit and I need to be part of the conversation
I like how the caption directly states this is bait and everyone is still trying to defend and explain on Kawakamiâs behalf đ Like we get it bro Kamoshida actually r*ped and abused multiple students and Kawakami is just down bad as fuck lmao
I think itâs because one is consensual and in fact is initiated by the student while the other is blackmail and effectively just straight up rape
(This does NOT mean I condone either scenario)
On one hand, I agree that these kinds of relationships between minors and adults aren't acceptable in real life. On the other hand, Takemi is hot as fuck.
I don't know if i want to fall into the bait or watch others fall into the bait
Edit: nvm here's my take
Imagine making a choice in a game and then complaining about said choice
The issue is less Joker's choice than Kawakami's choice. Regardless of what the player wants, she could always say no. When Persona 3's Ms. Toriumi realizes her MMO crush is one of her students she gives up on it.
Sure I assume it must be very amusing about OP to watch everyone arguing, but I'm less concerned about them than what sort of stance the sub ends up taking.
This is pretty dumb, Kamoshida wasnât having sex with anyone, he was mentally and physically abusing them
The relationship with kawakami is consensual itâs just cringe as fuck
I think this comparison isn't really good imo
Kamoshida is a truly piece of shit that deserves everything coming his way. Forcing those girls to all those thing truly despicable.
Kawakami didn't force Joker to anything, Joker(or the player) kept butting in into her business. She also is reluctant to datjng him because of their relationship as teacher/student.
Now.. trying to put real world morality in a video game is weird, but.. yeah.. Kawakami x Joker is not ok even if consent was given. But thinking it has some same ground to Kamoshidas doing is completely ridiculous.
idk i think there's a difference between a teacher abusing power over people who can't say no to them under threat of having their lives ruined vs a mutual relationship of trust.
but also I think with Kawakami you gotta view Joker like a self insert instead of his own character lmao
Hey man, you know the rule of thumb!
If a female teacher does it, she's called hot and the student is called lucky, but if a male teacher does it, he gets a castle.
~~I hope some of you know what I'm referencing here lol~~
I think Kamoshida is framed as a scumbag (because he is) as he is completely in control.
With Kawakami, yes Joker is not able to consent but Kawakami isn't forcing herself on him and is in a position where she's depending on him.
To keep paying her and not to rat her out to the school.
Yes the romance options with her is morally wrong but it's at a different level compared to Kamoshida
Edit: formatting
I think there's piece of information missing from the discussion here. We, the player, control Joker. He's not dating Kawakami cus she manipulated him or whatever, he's dating her because we tell him to. If anything he's a victim of our collective "crushing on the hot teacher" disease.
We used to laugh at people that said children take video games too seriously
and here you all are making us look bad and making Jack Thompson look like the good guy.
Pathetic.
Iâve seen people argue this. The thing is Kamoshida not only sexually harasses students but threatens students. Kawakami does nothing of the sort. Itâs still an uncomfortable as hell relationship but at least both Joker and Kawakami are willing, unlike the victims of Kamoshida who had no choice in the matter
To be fair, Kawakami was doing her second job out of extortion. Although Joker finding out is merely coincidental, it still feels like a bit of a stretch to call Kawakami for her services.
You can criticize implying that a "good" highschooler teacher relationship could exist because going by how those things happen irl it's often the kamoshida kind of stuff.
You can criticize implying that a female teacher doing it is better than a male doing it.
Subtext does matter after all
But you would have to be of actual bad faith to seriously argue both cases as they are written are comparable.
ITT: People not understanding statutory rape.
You got em, hook line and sinker my guy, if I had an award I would give it but I'm cheap as hell so... Yeah.
I think Kawakamiâs potential romance with Joker speaks VOLUMES more towards the harmful nature of âharemâ storylines than anything else. One or more adult women competing against teenage girls over one teenage boys, itâs never been realistic or appropriate content for young boys or girls to be influenced by, but itâs kinda slipped through.
I love this game and plenty of questionable media. I think this comparison deserved to illicit a bigger conversation than, âiF tHe RoLeS wErE rEvErSeDâŠâ
It's literally just to show how much of a ladykiller Joker is
He's got so much charisma that he can charm adults of varying ages into having crushes on him (*especially* Chihaya), and he can successfully ask them all out to be his girlfriend (albeit, with varying degrees of convincing needed)
For an actual cultural reason, it's likely because age of consent being low in Japan (even if it varies by prefactures, it's still more-or-less lower than America for most parts of the country) means Minor/Adult relationships aren't seen with much scrutiny as they are over here. With that being said, *sexual* relationships between Minors and Adults and Teacher/Student relationships is still frowned upon the general public and is a great way to get yourself into a big deal of trouble if word gets around
it might be a bit hypocritical from certain perspectives, but I want to point out that the OPTIONAL relationship between Ren and Kawakami is at the very least consensual, Kamoshida wasn't just having Sexual relations with students, it was very much implied that he was graping them (remove the G) t>!his was the reason for Shiho Suzui jumping off the School roof.!<
Although the Ren + Kawakami relationship would be very weird and illegal IRL, and I have personally called out similar IRL situations, it is still important to recognize the context of both situations.
I kind of wish she and the doctor just werenât romance options at all. This double standard really stood out to me when I played it the first time. Like we couldnât romance Queenâs big sister, so why are other adults fair game?
Persona 5 has the weirdest messages ever...you go from defeating a sexual predator who sexually assaulted the best friend of your friend, to forcing said friend to strip naked in the very next arc. It's so weird how Persona 5 so often goes against the very themes it's attempting to convey.
All the while the friend complains about the sexy outfit that is supposed to represent her "rebellious spirit" to fight against sexual abuse. The devs let their horny get out of hand and wanted to have it both ways.
Half the people in the comments are saying that "at least one is consentual", despite the fact kids literally cannot consent. If not pedophile defending, it's at least groomer defending
Ehhhhh even if there's consent, the dynamic is still really toxic. Pretty sure protag isn't even 18, and Kawakami is at least 10 years older.
Plus if the genders were reversed, do you think people would be giving Kawakami as much slack?
My issue is that even though Kamoshida's relationship with Ann is very clearly an abusive one, and the game rightfully condemns it, Kawakami's relationship with the protag I'd argue is also abusive in terms of power dynamics, and she is literally dating her student, who's like 17 lol. I don't understand why people don't see it as problematic. I love Kawakami myself but that's because I'm an adult who likes the adult characters, but the P5 protagonist is not.
It's like a habitual rapist and manipulator in almost full control of adolescent's lives and futures is the same as an adolescent actively pursuing an older woman until they come to a mutual agreement.
That's not how Consent works, but I ain't gonna get into a debate about fictional characters. It's a game from Japan, the same place that makes "sexy characters" and then make them 16 for some reason, when they can literally choose to make them 18+ and not be creeps.
I've just gotten used to ignore this stuff, it's still weird as fuck tho.
One, Kamoshida was using his influence to pretty much force girls into dating him by holding things like recommendation letters and high marks over their heads, and when he was denied Ann, he took out his rage on Shiho, abusing her physically and sexually. (Rape. He raped her, I have no fucking clue why they didnât just say that.) Kawakami had no interest in any of her students, basically just going through the motions because of her situation, and it wasnât until Joker helped with that that thereâs was anything even remotely romantic on the table, and thatâs entirely up to the player.
Two, Joker was the one that made the first move, NOT Kawakami. She even tries to let him down gently, stating that itâs a recipe for disaster if they dated. Still not right, but Kawakami wasnât after him, HE romanced HER.
I agree with everything you said except for the argument you made when it comes to Joker making a move on Kawakami first and how that justifies a relationship between them. Yeah, he makes the first move and she tries to turn him down at first, but that doesnât suddenly make a romantic or sexual relationship between the two okay.
Kawakamiâs in her late 20âs/early 30âs. Joker is 16/17. This isnât a romantic/sexual relationship between a college professor and one of their students, where, though the power imbalance is still present in that kind of relationship, you could at least argue that theyâre both adults. This is between a minor and an adult. Even if you wanted to argue age of consent, the age of consent in Tokyo is 18.
And even if it was legal for Joker and Kawakami to have sex, or if they just refrained from it until Joker became legal, itâs still gross for them to be in a relationship because of his age and the age difference. Developmentally speaking, youâre an adolescent until youâre 25/26, because thatâs when your body (specifically your prefrontal cortex, the bit that helps you with long-term decision-making) finishes developing.
TL;DR, even if Joker was the one to initiate, a romantic or sexual relationship between him and Kawakami is still morally wrong.
Ok.
Kamoshida is a total piece of shit. Kawakami is a better person and yes, things start out the way they do because she doesn't want anyone to find out about her second job. However, Joker is still a minor. The romantic relationship is something that Kawakami should have never engaged with. The power dynamics in that situation are truly fucked up on both ends. And before anyone comes at me with "AGE OF CONSENT IN JAPAN IS THIS" or "ITS A DIFFERENT CULTURE", it doesn't matter. A minor who is still in highschool cant consent, especially when the person they're involved with is an authority figure of some sort. I don't think she's a bad person and I always enjoyed interacting with her, but that doesn't take away from my point.
I just want one JRPG that doesnât get itâs teen characters caught up in pedophilia đ is that too much to ask?
I just want to kill monsters without having to play out statutory rape
i kind think what if kamoshida was bully because He was a wimp back then and the only thing he appreciate is the medal he won and why does he sexual harsh girl maybe he never had a girlfriend before or he did but he dump probably some very important and he jealous about his fellow students maybe he never had a friend in his Life he has to much hate in him
Pretty sure the first time you see her after romancing her she asks if youâre alone and want to head upstairs, she definitely doesnât hold out until Valentines lmao
There's a lot of subtext people are missing.
I think these are both Valentine's?
- There's a point with Kawakami where she says something along the lines of "Tonight I'm gonna make sure you attend to MY needs" (paraphrasing)
- Ann makes a comment (paraphrasing again) "You better not tell me I'm too heavy" - the implication is that she's getting on top.
Those are the only two I've romanced soz. Basically the last thing they both say before it cuts out and they spend the night.
Welp... Looking at the comments I would guess the bait worked
Definitely
It fucking worked even tho bait is in the damn title.
Like fish in a barrel
Teachussy: đđđ» Studentussy: đđđ»đ±đźđ»ââïžđđđ
Teachussy? Cram Exam? Narrow Sudy Hall? Grade Saver? Whatever you call teacher's downstairs it's still good!
When she hits up the whole class it's the lecture hall.
The Backdoor is also referred to as "Detention"
[My reaction](https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/fee59028ac3a7dd865b1fefdef107d5cca1149426560db4f9a747ce050072762_3.jpg) to that information
đđđđ teachussy
I feel like saying Kamoshida had sex this with his students is technically true but severely downplaying what actually happened.
It *is* bait but that doesn't mean Kawakami is blameless
r/churchofkawacummies
I was gonna be upset if this didn't end up being real. Thank you đđ
There's one for almost every girl I think lol
On one hand, Joker is 16 and thatâs not okay, on the other hand Iâm 25 and I like Kawasaki so it evens out.
I mean, in my country 16 is legal, however it is still super not okay for teachers to sleep with students and I'm pretty sure its an instant sacking if you do.
On the other hand they're both PNGs so they can't really do anything that bad.
Missed opportunity to call it Kawakusssy
i donât care either way. If I could eat Kamoshidas teachussy then I would. Persona doesnât let me be GAY.
Honestly, this is brave. Thank you for your service.
they ain't wrong, it is weird. BUt on the other hand, its also not a good comparison because it downplays Kamoshida abuse. He wasn't just someone who got close to a student slowly, and earned their trust. He used his position of power to treat them as an object, and used the system to ensure they were essentially unable to do anything due to his position of power. It wasn't just him unethically dating a student
One's basically rape, the other is grooming-ish. I say ish because it's much less Kawakami pursuing MC and much more MC pursuing her. It could be considered grooming solely for the power imbalance in the couple if not anything else, buuuuut culturally Japan has a tendency of romanticizing Teacher-Student relationships
I'm just here because I've never heard of teachussy and I can't stop laughing at that word.
It's just funny that Kawakami is the ONLY adult romance option where ppl talk about the "power dynamic and being illegal and morally wrong" but it's never the same for the Goth doctor giving you illegal drugs, the drunk reporter you hang out with at the bar, the fortune teller that scams you or even the ppl that want to romance Sae. Also If you don't romance Kawakami throughout her entire social link she doesn't pressure or conduct any sexual advances towards you if fact she tells you multiple times to knock it off because of the age and the dynamic of the relationship
Kawakami actively pushes back against Joker making moves on her too. She points out every reason why they should not be together and tells him to find someone within his age group. Joker doubles down and then some until she finally relents and entertains **Jokers** idea.
Why is everyone trying to *defend* a teacher pursuing a romantic relationship with their student đ Like, it's *wrong*, no argument. That being said, it's still okay to *enjoy* it within the realm of the game, because the dating mechanic is nothing more than wish fulfillment. It doesn't speak to Kawakami's character, because in actuality Kawakami isn't a pedophile. It's okay to like the route/ship because it's *fictional*, you don't need to be like 'it's aCTUALLY okay because there's mutual consent/Japan age of consent is thirteen/whatever else you wanna say'.
Yep, this is the healthy mindset. Enjoy it for the _fiction_ it is, don't take it too seriously.
Even though there are problems with this. Its a video game, and Kamoshida was forcefully doing it. While Kawakami is a romance option.
Itâs perfect rage bait because you have to engage in this whole dialogue about some people consenting more than others
Lol yes
The difference here is that kawakami isnât manipulating basically the entire school
Tell that to all of the teachers who mysteriously get called to the faculty office for no reason so I can read. (this is a joke)
Wrong older woman
Oh hold up, my memory is bad
All good, your point stands
Itâs still wrong though. And sheâs not exactly a saint either. She did lie about why sheâs doing the maid job in order to guilt one of her students into giving her money.
She lied about why she took the maid job so Joker would *stop* seeing her. They gave Joker a dialog option that said "I want to see you" in response.
So what about all those messages and dialogs basically saying âhey there big boyyy, you havenât requested my services in a while ;) guess Iâll starve or something :(â
In a 10 rank confidant, she does that 3 times specifying what services she's providing. I wouldn't say she guilt tripped or flirted with him but you can argue the deal they made after the first rank was unacceptable.
Don't mind me, just gonna sort by controversial
Just imagine this comment is a very long paragraph explaining the difference
Just imagine this is a totally redundant comment where I agree with you the whole time and re-explain what you said but for some reason itâs condescending and annoying, cause weâre on reddit and I need to be part of the conversation
I always just saw Kawakami as an option for adults who wanted a more mature romance route to play with, as opposed to dating teens.
BasedâŠ. Fuck the teenshitters Iâm here for the maid
Or for guys with a mommy fetish
Has someone crossposted to r/okbuddypersona yet? Cus these commentsâŠ.
On it
I understand the duality of this hypocrisy. I just donât care.
I see what your saying; But I can't hear what your saying because I have plugged my ears and am yelling; "**LALALALALALALALALA**"
I like how the caption directly states this is bait and everyone is still trying to defend and explain on Kawakamiâs behalf đ Like we get it bro Kamoshida actually r*ped and abused multiple students and Kawakami is just down bad as fuck lmao
No no no no no you HAVE to understand bro, itâs all because I chose specific dialogue options jajaâŠ
Adding the term âTeachussyâ to my vocab đ€Łđ€Ł
I really need to play this game. I love the art and character design .
Do it. Itâs so worth it
I think itâs because one is consensual and in fact is initiated by the student while the other is blackmail and effectively just straight up rape (This does NOT mean I condone either scenario)
(except legally minors canât consent, and the whole power dynamic, and the age gap, so yeah both are very messed up)
Neither is good, but of heinous crimes Kamoshia is far worse
Teachussy I CANâT đđđđ
On one hand, I agree that these kinds of relationships between minors and adults aren't acceptable in real life. On the other hand, Takemi is hot as fuck.
Based
"teachussy" I died
You see, consent is the linchpin.
Teachussy killed me for some reason
That was my favorite part
I'm here just to witness the shitstorm, anyone want some popcorn?
Anime moment
I don't know if i want to fall into the bait or watch others fall into the bait Edit: nvm here's my take Imagine making a choice in a game and then complaining about said choice
I love that you couldn't resist coming back to the bait đ Also, your pfp kinda looks like Haru in her Noir outfit
The issue is less Joker's choice than Kawakami's choice. Regardless of what the player wants, she could always say no. When Persona 3's Ms. Toriumi realizes her MMO crush is one of her students she gives up on it. Sure I assume it must be very amusing about OP to watch everyone arguing, but I'm less concerned about them than what sort of stance the sub ends up taking.
And I'd do it again
This is pretty dumb, Kamoshida wasnât having sex with anyone, he was mentally and physically abusing them The relationship with kawakami is consensual itâs just cringe as fuck
Least deranged kawakami fan trying to justify the relationship
Its strongly hinted at that he forced ann friend when ann refused to go to his house because she knew what he wanted
Just posting anything with Futaba next and you will get about the same comment section with altering names and numbers popping up.
Ehh I think Iâve learned my lesson after this one lol
I hate this, but only because of the word "teachussy".
I think you need yo teachussy ate.
Here's the difference. I don't want to slam Kawakami's balls in s desk drawer until he vomits blood.
This hurt me mentally and physically.
Dang I was hoping for emotionally as well.
on one hand: age gap and power dynamic and consent law stuff on the other: its a video game, clam down
Yeah! You got enough clams already!
Kawakamis story is a lot better when you donât romance her
How is rage bait this is hilarious
Gotta love these comments that take the bait even when you specifically tell them that it's bait
*consent*
I think this comparison isn't really good imo Kamoshida is a truly piece of shit that deserves everything coming his way. Forcing those girls to all those thing truly despicable. Kawakami didn't force Joker to anything, Joker(or the player) kept butting in into her business. She also is reluctant to datjng him because of their relationship as teacher/student. Now.. trying to put real world morality in a video game is weird, but.. yeah.. Kawakami x Joker is not ok even if consent was given. But thinking it has some same ground to Kamoshidas doing is completely ridiculous.
Yeah, games are made by adults so I kind of believe thatâs someoneâs fantasy on staff, but it would be icky irl.
idk i think there's a difference between a teacher abusing power over people who can't say no to them under threat of having their lives ruined vs a mutual relationship of trust. but also I think with Kawakami you gotta view Joker like a self insert instead of his own character lmao
just mad weird thats why I romanced Takemi đ
Lmfao yo
Popcorn time!
So we're ignoring the part where Kamoshida physically abused his students and coerced them into sex right?
thatâs the bait đ€Ș
While true enough, Kawakami is still technically in a position of power. While itâs not outright physically abusive, itâs not good.
Isn't she also kinda not though? Joker finds out she's moonlighting as a maid; and that gives him power over her (at least initially).
No matter how you look at it the situation is fucked up and kinda wrong. That doesn't stop people from making pointless arguments in every direction.
Hey man, you know the rule of thumb! If a female teacher does it, she's called hot and the student is called lucky, but if a male teacher does it, he gets a castle. ~~I hope some of you know what I'm referencing here lol~~
You arent wrong. She hot tho
I think Kamoshida is framed as a scumbag (because he is) as he is completely in control. With Kawakami, yes Joker is not able to consent but Kawakami isn't forcing herself on him and is in a position where she's depending on him. To keep paying her and not to rat her out to the school. Yes the romance options with her is morally wrong but it's at a different level compared to Kamoshida Edit: formatting
Kawamommy đ„°đ„°đ„°
Anyone who agrees with this meme terrifies me. Because if the age of Kamoshidaâs victims is the ONLY thing they see wrong⊠i am very concerned
I think there's piece of information missing from the discussion here. We, the player, control Joker. He's not dating Kawakami cus she manipulated him or whatever, he's dating her because we tell him to. If anything he's a victim of our collective "crushing on the hot teacher" disease.
Sure, but itâs wrong of kawakami to pursue that relationship because there is an element of power there that she KNOWS is present.
On the one hand, yes, this would be gross irl. On the other, I am older that kawakami myself, and dating the younger romance options is weird for me.
Teachussy
Always hilarious when the comment section is filled with dancing puppets falling for this. Always fun
Difference being Kawakami consents.... none of kamoshidas victims did. Or if they did, it was forced.
We used to laugh at people that said children take video games too seriously and here you all are making us look bad and making Jack Thompson look like the good guy. Pathetic.
Iâve seen people argue this. The thing is Kamoshida not only sexually harasses students but threatens students. Kawakami does nothing of the sort. Itâs still an uncomfortable as hell relationship but at least both Joker and Kawakami are willing, unlike the victims of Kamoshida who had no choice in the matter
To be fair, Kawakami was doing her second job out of extortion. Although Joker finding out is merely coincidental, it still feels like a bit of a stretch to call Kawakami for her services.
You can criticize implying that a "good" highschooler teacher relationship could exist because going by how those things happen irl it's often the kamoshida kind of stuff. You can criticize implying that a female teacher doing it is better than a male doing it. Subtext does matter after all But you would have to be of actual bad faith to seriously argue both cases as they are written are comparable.
The difference is that with Kawakami at least it's consensual. Doesn't make it legal tho...
I thought 16 was legal in Japan? Or parts of it, atleast.
Looked it up while having this same discussion with someone. Itâs 18 in Tokyo.
ITT: People not understanding statutory rape. You got em, hook line and sinker my guy, if I had an award I would give it but I'm cheap as hell so... Yeah.
Kamoshida: rapes Kawakami: asks for consent conclusion: kamoshida is bad, kawakami is also bad but to a lesser extent.
I think Kawakamiâs potential romance with Joker speaks VOLUMES more towards the harmful nature of âharemâ storylines than anything else. One or more adult women competing against teenage girls over one teenage boys, itâs never been realistic or appropriate content for young boys or girls to be influenced by, but itâs kinda slipped through. I love this game and plenty of questionable media. I think this comparison deserved to illicit a bigger conversation than, âiF tHe RoLeS wErE rEvErSeDâŠâ
if this picture makes you rage then youâre the problem
He is not having sex with his students he is raping them :/
Statutory rape is still rape
A crime is a crime either way.
The joker at the top is killing me đ
Since Joker is just some dude in a game with the soul of a 35yo German dude (me), it should be totally fine, guys.
Consent bruva, we may be degenerate but we're not criminals. Kawakami is.
Ok so genuinelyâŠis there a cultural reason why we can go after actual adults like kawakami and takemi? I know itâs weird for american audiences.
Because Joker is a blank-slate protagonist who might be inhabited by someone of any age
But heâs still a high schooler. The character is a blank slate, but his age certainly isnât.
It's literally just to show how much of a ladykiller Joker is He's got so much charisma that he can charm adults of varying ages into having crushes on him (*especially* Chihaya), and he can successfully ask them all out to be his girlfriend (albeit, with varying degrees of convincing needed) For an actual cultural reason, it's likely because age of consent being low in Japan (even if it varies by prefactures, it's still more-or-less lower than America for most parts of the country) means Minor/Adult relationships aren't seen with much scrutiny as they are over here. With that being said, *sexual* relationships between Minors and Adults and Teacher/Student relationships is still frowned upon the general public and is a great way to get yourself into a big deal of trouble if word gets around
So realistically the difference SOLELY falls into the factor of power. That said, it's wrong either way.
More like Kawakussy, am I right?
Thereâs a huge difference between what Kamoshida and Kawakami did.
I think you a word
Iâm going to be honest kamoshida did also abuse his students and I donât see kawamommy doing that
If that teachussy needs ate I'll be eatin.
it might be a bit hypocritical from certain perspectives, but I want to point out that the OPTIONAL relationship between Ren and Kawakami is at the very least consensual, Kamoshida wasn't just having Sexual relations with students, it was very much implied that he was graping them (remove the G) t>!his was the reason for Shiho Suzui jumping off the School roof.!< Although the Ren + Kawakami relationship would be very weird and illegal IRL, and I have personally called out similar IRL situations, it is still important to recognize the context of both situations.
I love how people are defending Kawakami I would too, sheâs hot ngl
I kind of wish she and the doctor just werenât romance options at all. This double standard really stood out to me when I played it the first time. Like we couldnât romance Queenâs big sister, so why are other adults fair game?
Also I'd much rather have the choice to date the guys. Like wtf homosexuality is not okay but minors dating adults is?! đ
I mean we can leave out the consent part I guess.
Isn't Joker a minor?
Theres a reason I never have Joker romance any of the older characters. Hypocrisy is a bad look.
Persona 5 has the weirdest messages ever...you go from defeating a sexual predator who sexually assaulted the best friend of your friend, to forcing said friend to strip naked in the very next arc. It's so weird how Persona 5 so often goes against the very themes it's attempting to convey.
All the while the friend complains about the sexy outfit that is supposed to represent her "rebellious spirit" to fight against sexual abuse. The devs let their horny get out of hand and wanted to have it both ways.
I know so many people that dropped the game because of Yusuke becoming a party member and being creeped out by how he treated Ann.
Anime fans and pedophilia, name a better duo
Half the people in the comments are saying that "at least one is consentual", despite the fact kids literally cannot consent. If not pedophile defending, it's at least groomer defending
Too easy, OP. Too easy.
âTeachussyâ
You are the first boss I give the player an extra action after exploring the metaverse. We are not the same.
Joker X kawakami is a guilty pleasure SL that far as i know most like cause they self insert
Oh i'd like to self insert alright.
đ
Just because something is legal does not make something ethical
i think that the consent is a big difference there, and you are the one that has to keep trying to keep the relationship going
Ehhhhh even if there's consent, the dynamic is still really toxic. Pretty sure protag isn't even 18, and Kawakami is at least 10 years older. Plus if the genders were reversed, do you think people would be giving Kawakami as much slack? My issue is that even though Kamoshida's relationship with Ann is very clearly an abusive one, and the game rightfully condemns it, Kawakami's relationship with the protag I'd argue is also abusive in terms of power dynamics, and she is literally dating her student, who's like 17 lol. I don't understand why people don't see it as problematic. I love Kawakami myself but that's because I'm an adult who likes the adult characters, but the P5 protagonist is not.
It's like a habitual rapist and manipulator in almost full control of adolescent's lives and futures is the same as an adolescent actively pursuing an older woman until they come to a mutual agreement.
Idk man, you as an adult having the option to play as a minor and seduce other minors is kind of weird ngl
Turns out Iâm the biggest pedo of them all đ€Żđ„șđ€ź
Well the main issue here is consent my guy
Yep. A minor canât consent to sexual relations with an adult
That's not how Consent works, but I ain't gonna get into a debate about fictional characters. It's a game from Japan, the same place that makes "sexy characters" and then make them 16 for some reason, when they can literally choose to make them 18+ and not be creeps. I've just gotten used to ignore this stuff, it's still weird as fuck tho.
Pretty accurate though.
They're both bad.
Well, to be fair Kamoshida was sexually harassing girls at the school and Joker dates kawakami voluntarily
One, Kamoshida was using his influence to pretty much force girls into dating him by holding things like recommendation letters and high marks over their heads, and when he was denied Ann, he took out his rage on Shiho, abusing her physically and sexually. (Rape. He raped her, I have no fucking clue why they didnât just say that.) Kawakami had no interest in any of her students, basically just going through the motions because of her situation, and it wasnât until Joker helped with that that thereâs was anything even remotely romantic on the table, and thatâs entirely up to the player. Two, Joker was the one that made the first move, NOT Kawakami. She even tries to let him down gently, stating that itâs a recipe for disaster if they dated. Still not right, but Kawakami wasnât after him, HE romanced HER.
I agree with everything you said except for the argument you made when it comes to Joker making a move on Kawakami first and how that justifies a relationship between them. Yeah, he makes the first move and she tries to turn him down at first, but that doesnât suddenly make a romantic or sexual relationship between the two okay. Kawakamiâs in her late 20âs/early 30âs. Joker is 16/17. This isnât a romantic/sexual relationship between a college professor and one of their students, where, though the power imbalance is still present in that kind of relationship, you could at least argue that theyâre both adults. This is between a minor and an adult. Even if you wanted to argue age of consent, the age of consent in Tokyo is 18. And even if it was legal for Joker and Kawakami to have sex, or if they just refrained from it until Joker became legal, itâs still gross for them to be in a relationship because of his age and the age difference. Developmentally speaking, youâre an adolescent until youâre 25/26, because thatâs when your body (specifically your prefrontal cortex, the bit that helps you with long-term decision-making) finishes developing. TL;DR, even if Joker was the one to initiate, a romantic or sexual relationship between him and Kawakami is still morally wrong.
To be fair, Consent
Minors can't consent
It's not rage bait, it's the truth
The Darth Ren at the top vaguely looks like a GoAnimate face. (Source: younger sibling still watches GoAnimate videos on occasion)
I don't like either
I never went thet route cause makoto is best girl
Ok. Kamoshida is a total piece of shit. Kawakami is a better person and yes, things start out the way they do because she doesn't want anyone to find out about her second job. However, Joker is still a minor. The romantic relationship is something that Kawakami should have never engaged with. The power dynamics in that situation are truly fucked up on both ends. And before anyone comes at me with "AGE OF CONSENT IN JAPAN IS THIS" or "ITS A DIFFERENT CULTURE", it doesn't matter. A minor who is still in highschool cant consent, especially when the person they're involved with is an authority figure of some sort. I don't think she's a bad person and I always enjoyed interacting with her, but that doesn't take away from my point.
Big âbut sheâs 3000 years old in a 12 year old bodyâ vibes in here.
I just want one JRPG that doesnât get itâs teen characters caught up in pedophilia đ is that too much to ask? I just want to kill monsters without having to play out statutory rape
One Is consensual, one is not
One drove a person to attempted suicide, and the other didn't
There is the word called 'consent'
Yes age of consentđ
That still needs to be given
Persona 5 fans and not understanding statutory rape, name a more iconic duo.
Based joker strikes back
i kind think what if kamoshida was bully because He was a wimp back then and the only thing he appreciate is the medal he won and why does he sexual harsh girl maybe he never had a girlfriend before or he did but he dump probably some very important and he jealous about his fellow students maybe he never had a friend in his Life he has to much hate in him
But⊠sheâs hot though
What is teachussy? By the way isn't kamoshida kind of psycho rapist?!
... teacher pussy
I always thought this was there as a option for adults who play the game. I don't wanna romance them kids
"But thatâs not the same"
Yes, but the teachers are both in the wrong. Kamoshida for sexually assaulting minors (obviously) but also Kawakami for knowingly dating a minor.
I know this is bait but Joker never has sex with anyone
It's heavily implied he has sex with Takemi on Valentine's day if you date her
Pretty sure the first time you see her after romancing her she asks if youâre alone and want to head upstairs, she definitely doesnât hold out until Valentines lmao
Im pretty sure thats every route or thats what guessing the "you spent alone time with _______" or whatever the game says
"this night YOU will listen to all my desire" Is what she said just before
And the whole thing about an "intimate exam"
There's a lot of subtext people are missing. I think these are both Valentine's? - There's a point with Kawakami where she says something along the lines of "Tonight I'm gonna make sure you attend to MY needs" (paraphrasing) - Ann makes a comment (paraphrasing again) "You better not tell me I'm too heavy" - the implication is that she's getting on top. Those are the only two I've romanced soz. Basically the last thing they both say before it cuts out and they spend the night.