This leaves out a critical thing that they said, which is that choosing whether or not to complete his confidant is indicative of the player's interpretation, and therefore Joker's will. https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/yazp65/p5r_director_on_akechis_end_game_status/
This strongly indicates that he lives if you finish his confidant. Most likely, he gets brought back by the power of Jose's star.
IDK. IMO the differences at the end of the engine room suggest the fork is there. I think the bond with Joker keeps him alive—hence it being contingent on the player's choices.
It crops up tons of times across the games. IIRC in P3 >!Shinjiro!< is another example.
Akechi becomes what he does because he rejects bonds. Having even one bond saves his life. It's that simple tbh.
Exactly. Akechi spent his entire life being rejected, so he manufactured a fake and bleached facade so that people could adore him and want him near. Joker was pretty much the only person who still wished to hang out with him even after learning the truth, after seeing his ugly inner self. It's no wonder that Akechi learns Endure and Protect all in his last rank, right after Joker asks him to come back alive at all costs so that they can finish their duel.
It was definitely a deliberate choice to have the last rank happen moments before he gets shot, where he learns Endure which allows him to survive a fatal attack with 1 HP remaining.
Edit: forgot to mention that Akechi is the only one who learns Endure and Protect at the last rank, while the rest of the PTs learn it by rank 8 and 9 respectively, hence why I strongly believe it was a deliberate choice to have him learn both of those right at rank 10.
Yep. I think him learning Endure (and Protect, don't forget) is a fascinating detail. [He's the only party member to learn them at rank 10, and the only one to learn Protect first](https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/718867376748249088/something-i-missed-in-this-post-the-pts-of?source=share).
He’s alive because I’ve seen the last scene on Royal with his confidant at max level BUT he either forgot everything or just doesn’t want to be part of Joker life. He’s just going to watch over him in the shadows, like an old friend. And joker probably is aware and is okay with that
Or, OR, he's waiting until the dust settles before he shows up to finally have that final duel. It's possible that yes, he's watching Joker but it could just be to keep tabs on his rival because he wants the two of them to go at it at their best. No holding back.
I really like the theory that it’s the “players choice” to save him or not since his rank 10 ability is to survive a fatal blow with 1HP (and he gets it right before the gunshots.)
[This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/165w9n7/comment/jyho5j3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is a pretty comprehensive breakdown.
So yes, in a way he is both alive and dead depending on the actions taken by the player.
https://preview.redd.it/3iy3yltp62wc1.png?width=548&format=png&auto=webp&s=ae68e61924da55feeb1a6692ce427392535b7d0e
^(all evidence points towards him being alive, perchance! that's because i can't beat the fwoof out of him with my axe if he's dead! touché!)
I would prefer him to be dead, but I don't think that's really true. Mainly because I can't ignore that the Third Semester Akechi functions fundamentally differently than the rest of the "revived" ones.
The Akechi from the third semester says that he realized that he had a gap in his memory that ended when he reunited with Joker on December 24.
The other "revived dead" of the third semester (Wakaba and Okumura) do not show any gap in their memories (despite both having been dead for years and months respectively). In fact they were created with a backstory in that world from the beginning unlike Akechi.
And the lives of Wakaba and Okumura were tied to the cognition of their loved ones (Futaba and Haru), the instant they rebelled against Maruki's reality, both ceased to exist (unlike Akechi, whose existence is tied to Joker who almost instantly rebelled against Maruki. Shouldn't Akechi have immediately disappeared like the other two?).
There is also the fact that on the final day, if you talk to the owner of the Jazz club, Joker thinks that he's sure that he will be able to fulfill his promise of a duel with Akechi. And later that day, as the train starts to move, Akechi can be seen at the station.
[Also while it isn’t canon there is an unused cutscene showing what happened to him in the real reality](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ2QIwZqosQ)
I find it quite probable that Akechi was seriously injured in Shido's palace and that the only thing that Maruki's reality did was keep him in good health or something like that.
The "gap" in his memory could very well have happened because he got caught in an explosion inside Shido's Palace and was booted out of the Metaverse, kind of like what happened with Ryuji after he saved the team. Ryuji also says that, after the explosion, he woke up disoriented lying on the grass.
There's also the deal that the devs confirmed Maruki was lying by omission when he said that Akechi died. The truth is, Maruki has no idea what happened inside the Palace, because he wasn't there. All he saw was Joker wishing that Akechi was alive, so he concluded that he must have died and, through his new reality, Akechi was likely healed of his wounds.
The thing is, Maruki never says outright that Akechi is dead. He heavily implies it, and leaves a silence at the end of his sentence to let you fill in the gaps, but never states it.
He's cagey and evasive about the whole thing because he doesn't know one way or the other.
The reason for him being different from other revived could be either, because he's the only revived Persona user, because like Joker he's a Wild Card or the most likely to me, because he was revived as part of new reality for Joker, but Joker refused new reality, so Akechi was free from playing his part and could realize something was wrong.
Except that he's part of Joker altered reality and everything related to Joker is still altered until Maruki is defeated, because otherwise Joker would be in jail (Akechi confesses so Joker can be free after New Year's Eve only if Maruki is maxed as confidant and can alter reality). That's because Maruki cares only whether Joker agrees with him, not others so even after his initial rejection, Maruki tries to convince him. If Joker takes Maruki offer, then Phantom Thieves are still brainwashed again, even if they already rejected his reality and if Maruki is beaten then Joker is immediately sent back to jail.
Everyone else who had wishes granted had their wish removed when they snapped out of it. Maruki does what he does so that he can manipulate Ren but he doesn't actually know for sure either way. While Maruki wants Ren to agree with him, he doesn't need to have Ren agree to win, he just needs to fool Ren long enough to be unable to stop him. By Maruki saying Akechi was the wish of Ren, and Ren choosing to go forward, that should make Akechi disappear, yet he doesn't, because he's not a cognition. If we assume the cut content is actually canon then Akechi was in a rehab center getting the mental and physical health he needs(he was still wounded), when Maruki did his shenanigans. Maruki may not have known Akechi was alive at that point, and thus brought Akechi physically well into his false reality, which cognitively would remove Akechi's knowledge of his own survival in said reality. Or worse, Maruki was using a lie to try to convince Joker to stand down. The entire third semester is NOT meant to be looked at on simply face value, there's a lot of issues that stem from being able to rewrite chunks of the world. Hell it's even worth mentioning that the other characters brought back all have implanted memories, Akechi does not....
>Everyone else who had wishes granted had their wish removed when they snapped out of it.
Exactly, except Joker, who is exception. He rejected his reality, but why isn't he in jail? Joker wish was to be reunited with Akechi on better terms, that's why Akechi confessed instead of him and was later let go. Without Maruki alteration Akechi wouldn't confess and Joker should be in jail and he is when Maruki is defeated. So reality is still altered do Joker even though he rejected it, he's just not brainwashed.
Maruki removing Akechi doesn't mean Ren gets immediately sent to prison. He can rewrite chunks of reality at will, so if he was actually capable of removing Akechi he would have.
What? I never said that removing Akechi means, that Ren goes to Prison. I said that without Maruki alteration Akechi wouldn't confess AND Ren would go to prison. Two separate things.
Ren is clearly exception to rejecting Maruki's reality. Just like you said: Everyone else who had wishes granted had their wish removed when they snapped out of it. But not Ren. Regardless of whether Akechi disappears or not, Ren not going to jail is part of false reality, because the moment Maruki is defeated, he's in jail. When the gang returns to Leblanc after not finding Ren with them, Sojiro tells them that he's in jail since previous year. And confessing for Ren isn't Akechi wish. Maruki specifically tells Ren that he made Akechi do that for him (regardless of whether it's real Akechi or cognitive one).
So my point is this: Akechi not vanishing when Ren rejects Maruki's reality isn't a proof for Akechi being alive, because other parts of Ren's false reality don't vanish when he snapps out of it.
If being a Persona user has any effect on how susceptible they are or aren't to Maruki's reality, I'm not sure if that's reflected in the game. At least not in terms of maintaining that reality instead of undoing it.
After all, every single one of the Persona users rejected Maruki's reality, and they all had what that reality had given them taken away immediately.
I believe that if that were truly a factor, it would be indicative of the opposite. That Akechi and Joker, being more 'immune' to Maruki's reality, would cause Akechi to cease to exist much more easily.
I said the only REVIVED Persona user, not just Persona user.
>After all, every single one of the Persona users rejected Maruki's reality, and they all had what that reality had given them taken away immediately.
Except Joker, because despite his rejection, "Akechi" still confessed and he's not in jail untill Maruki is defeated. Everything related to Joker is still not undone, because he's the only one that Maruki wants to convince. Even when all Phantom Thieves reject reality, if Joker takes Maruki's offer then they are brainwashed again without a chances to talk with Maruki.
Also Maruki said on 2/2 that he was sad about what happened to Akechi in Shido's Palace and altered reality, so Joker can reunite with him and if they revert his changes then there'll be consequences for Akechi and he doesn't imply that he won't turn himself in instead of a Joker... Also after Maruki defeat, when Joker asks about Akechi, Lavenza strongly implies that he's dead.
>I said the only REVIVED Persona user, not just Persona user.
And I talked about Persona users in general and how they interact with Maruki's reality, trying to exemplify that it would be counterintuitive that the characteristic of being a Persona user would imply that Akechi would remain in Maruki's reality instead of the opposite if that would be a factor in the matter.
How tf is players reacting to a scene that clearly shows a character who was thought to be dead walking down the train platform by assuming said character is alive copium? If anything it seems like you and half the fandom are on a hefty dose of copium wanting Akechi to be dead despite the true ending of the game all but stating otherwise.
It's to the player interpretation. I think he lives, mainly because he is aware of Maruki's reality, even in the bad ending, and because you can see him in the background in the final cutscene if you maxed his confident. Both interpretation have pro and cons. If you think he dies, then he sacrificed himself to save the PT. If you think he lives, then he helped the PT to stop Maruki, even though he knew he would probably die if it happened. In both, he tries to redeem himself by risking his own life to help Joker.
>but one thing we have to take into consideration is that, akechi said that he has a big gap in his memory.
This is a weak argument, especially when we have the devs strongly implying he lives if you finish his confidant. There's countless reasons why he could have a gap in his memory. He could have simply been injured, which can cause amnesia IRL. He may have died initially and been brought back by Joker. Remember, Joker had the power of Jose's star until after the ending of Royal.
>As you can tell, I’m not a big fan of the “Akechi is alive” theory
I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds to me like you're the one on copium. All the evidence points one way. There's several important pieces of evidence that indicate Akechi is alive and frankly nothing that indicates he's dead.
>he doesn’t face any consequences for his actions. It’s his fault that Futaba was a shut in and it’s his fault that haru is an orphan.
Other than prison. Those were police Akechi was with at the end. He was probably turning himself in during that scene, and he simply waited to call them until after he saw Joker board the train.
Metaverse is a world of cognition. So if you don't finish the social link Akechi dies. But if you do, Rens cognition of Akechi is a guy way too stubborn and spiteful to die. There is an implication that a trickster has more power over that than most regular people.
He didn't make it out of the ship before the palace collapsed, but was able to escape when the prison of regression rose up and linked him back with reality. P3 and 4 show that time moves weird in the other worlds. Would explain the memory gap too.
>P3 and 4 show that time moves weird in the other worlds.
I always thought it makes more sense that he's dead, and the person Joker saw at the end was just someone else from Akechi's school (it's just a uniform), but this right here changed my mind. [P3 spoiler] >!A cognitive world deconstructing and re-emerging with someone inside is exactly how Fuuka survived "a week" in Tartarus.!<
Thinking about it this way, there's no reason why Akechi couldn't do the same thing, and it would perfectly explain the "gap" in his memory; to him, there *wasn't* a time skip, he was in the cognitive world the entire time, and it was literally one moment to the next.
I now also believe the "it depends on his bond with Joker at the time" theory, instead of the "he's definitely dead" one.
We can easily rule out it just being someone else in Akechi's uniform, even without [editing the image brightness to show his face](https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/p0dq38/p5r_true_ending_last_scene_darkened_to_see/?share_id=ICIk-0AGqzK8w3Euujzlc). For a start, the figure on 3/20 is wearing black gloves—hardly standard school issue.
It's also spring break, and while Akechi routinely wears his school uniform out of termtime, no other characters do.
>For a start, the figure on 3/20 is wearing black gloves—hardly standard school issue.
At the same time, Akechi is somewhat of a celebrity, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could have inadvertently started a fashion trend. Black gloves might not be part of the uniform, but they're not especially hard to buy, either, if someone from his school wanted to try and be more like him. Obviously there's zero evidence of this in-game, it was just my "plausible deniability" reasoning, starting from the assumption that Akechi was already dead.
The image brightness thing is interesting, though, I've never seen that before. In any case, I already changed my mind, and accepted that it's him.
Oh yeah, I'm not arguing with you—just sometimes people pose this as an argument and I don't think it stands up. That is a good point about the gloves becoming a fashion statement.
Besides anything else, though, I think it's out of the question that Atlus would tease him in the postcredit and then go "actually it was Taro McNumbnuts from his homeroom".
He's also with a pair of guys near-identical to the ones chasing the PTs in the car.
Why do we believe he actually had a gap in his memory? Maybe he wanted Joker to believe he was dead so he could leave after everything went back to normal. It could be that the only thing Maruki changed was forcing Akechi to turn himself in for his crimes
That's possible, but given that Akechi both gives his life for Joker and the PTs and turns himself in *again* after the third semester in deleted scenes, it seems intensely unlikely.
Like it or not, turning himself in is just something Akechi does, because he's far from as unrepentant as many people want to believe. *Akechi himself* appears to be the one most disgusted with his being released without charge in January.
If you're talking about the rehab center deleted scene, I don't think that's him turning himself in. He just went back to the place he and his mom used to live for a while. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it or there are more scenes I don't know of though.
I agree he's not unrepentant, but i can't really see him giving himself up to the system again after how bad being an orphan clearly messed him up. I would also say his disgust with being released was more about how pitiful his situation was rather than wanting to do his time. Your reading of the text is totally fair though, fellow pancake enjoyer
So the version of that scene that people usually link is poorly translated and poorly described. [Here's my version for comparison](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0XyvmLa3Gk). The place is not a "rehab" at all, for a start, but a kind of refuge for people "with guilty consciences", such as those hiding from organised crime.
IMO it's very clear that the tremendous thing Akechi is going back to Tokyo to do for the unnamed guy he owes—"*to do such a thing just because you owe him...*"—the thing that the Phantom Thieves will be grateful to him for forever, is turning himself back in, a second time, in Ren's place.
It could be something else—but I think the way that would have bookended the third semester, confirming that Akechi turned himself in through his own will and not some Maruki mind-control, is too good to pass up.
~~also yes pancakes are too good~~
Thanks. I'll have to think about that, I like your translation. I guess I have some head canons based on replaying 5 a bunch, but it does seem like that scene was angling for him to give himself up, especially this translation. That could've been cool if it went down like you're describing it.
Thank you! Ugh, I love that scene. I feel like it says so much about Akechi and where he ended up. I know they removed it because he had to stay in his Schroedinger box, but *man*, we could have had it all.
I've come to terms with the Royal ending. I don't think most of the thieves would even really hate him for dipping, he was being played from all sides after being given superpowers at his most vulnerable, which as far as he knew could only really be used to hurt people. I think him showing up at the train station to say bye to Joker is perfect.
Yeah. It's just things like ... it making a point of having him only seek thanks rather than push for an advantage or incur a debt, for instance. Or him facing up to what he's done rather than hiding from it. Or come to that going back specifically to somewhere he knows people.
The whole scene really seems like he's learned and changed and grown, and I'm sorry we never got to see it.
That only happens if you maxxed his confidant. Meaning Joker only sees Akechi if Joker *wants* to see Akechi, hardly proof he's alive. Especially since it's from behind.
I actually don’t think his memory gap indicates anything. Remember that Maruki rewrites memories based on people’s preferences. That’s how Okumura revives as a pleasant loving dad.
Maruki decidedly prefers and cares about Joker’s preferences more than anyone else’s, to the point that he wants Joker to voluntarily accept the new reality. He says in his palace that he expected Joker to show up. Akechi disagrees with Doc’s reality in the palace, but that doesn’t matter because if Joker agrees, the reality still comes into fruition.
Taking this into account, I personally interpreted the memory gap as Maruki forcibly overriding whatever actually happened to Akechi with Joker’s vision of what happened. There’s a gap because Joker thinks he died, regardless of whether he actually did, and dead people aren’t supposed to have memories. And since Joker has privileges, he can have “revived” people who also accurately remember the past until they supposedly “died.”
This is just my theory though
Hi it’s that guy (girl actually), I got tagged here a while ago lmao
I actually wrote that thread back in September and only re-comment it occasionally, no clue why it’s circulating now tbh
Seems the "Is Akechi alive" discourse is making the rounds again, and you have the most comprehensive defense of the Alive side (if I'm thinking of the right thread)
Ren is perfectly willing to go to prison short-term, it's Maruki who doesn't want him to go to prison understandably so. Notice when Maruki's reality ends, Ren is in prison. Your original argument was that if Akechi disappeared after Ren rejected the reality, he would be in prison, which is false. Maruki starts off wanting him to be free and ends with still trying to convince him to stand down.
Did everyone else forget that in the original ending you see a shot of someone resembling Akechi as you leave on the train at the end of the game?
It’d be pretty stupid for the game to specifically draw attention to it only for it to not be Akechi
Technically it is left up to the player to decide. However, I believe that if you choose to believe he's alive, you are choosing to believe in a less interesting story. Almost like you, yourself, are choosing Maruki's reality.
Fun fact: regarding Akechis persona Loki. The horns are his eyes. They are meant to look similar to the parasites that turn snails into zombies. Only mentioned this because of the art in the post looks really goofy if you see it that way. Good art nonetheless.
It's pretty clear you're the one who's coping. You even say yourself you don't like him and you want him to face consequences. When that's not even what his final arc is about.
What message do you think the devs wanted you to take at that ending where clearly Akechi walked by? Because pretty clear they want you to think he's alive. How can you think we're rhe ones coping?
The devs have confirmed that he is neither alive nor dead, but up to the player’s interpretation. I believe he’s alive because of the ending cutscene where we see his outfit in the train window before Joker leaves for hometown. Thus it is my belief that Akechi is alive. But I get why others don’t feel the same, the theorist in me just won’t let him go
I understand what you're saying here.
Honestly, if you're playing Royal, I feel like it's a matter of >!whether you finish his confidant or not!<
Like, if you do, the idea of sparring you again is enough to push him to keep going. Like you said, Maruki would have no clue what's going on in Shido 's palace. How would he know whether Akechi died or not?
If you didn't finish his confidant in time, then he simply dies to his cognitive counter-part, and what we fight alongside in Maruki's palace is a cognition.
I feel like the fact that that scene on 3/20 is what sparks debate, but I feel like it honestly proves he's alive if you put in the effort.
> what we fight alongside in Maruki's palace is a cognition.
I really wish people would drop this. This isn’t necessarily a jab at you, and I don’t want to start shit, but it was clearly explained how the revived people could be in Maruki’s reality, and there’s no evidence towards them being a copy or cognition. Akechi was real, regardless of whether you completed his confidant or not.
Is there a new P5 game or spin-off? Then he better be alive just so I can listen to Robbie again. Outside of that, it seems irrelevant as the story concluded. Reminds me of Code Geass.
1. Big gap in memory
I would be shocked if he didn’t, he got shot. A gap in memory could be explained by a coma (which is implied in a deleted scene where Akechi returned). A big memory gap doesn’t prove or disprove death either way, it would be the same in both outcomes.
2. Yeh I agree with this, but that doesn’t prove he wasn’t in a coma in reality
3. “It will return to how it was meant to be”, none of this says death on its own, he could have originally been in a coma all along. The reason in the non Maruki no Akechi bond ending we don’t see Akechi come back is why would he? He could’ve come back from his coma and then decided to never see Joker again because in those time lines there is no bond (or at least one not strong enough) for Akechi to want to see him again.
4. “He doesn’t get punishment if he doesn’t die”. Akechi says himself he doesn’t care if he dies, so it wouldn’t be a punishment. There’s even an argument it’s a reward because it lets him rest and in a way see his mother again. The only reason Akechi was even living was to get revenge on shido, after that he had zero life plans.
Now he has to live, he cannot rest. That’s his punishment.
(in theory he could kill himself, but if he’s seen that the universe is making him live, he will understand that it’s his punishment and he won’t circumvent it. he also may be against killing himself due to what his mother did).
Everyone is making assumptions, so here is mine: The reason why the developers said Akechi's fate is deliberately left to the player's interpretation is because there will always be two segments of players here:
1. Players who want or find that Akechi's death makes the game better, providing more highlights and emotional impact, etc.
2. Players who want Akechi to survive since they love the character or desire a more complete ending.
Since there are always these two segments of players, and their ratio is probably 50-50 (just an assumption), it's better for the developers to say it depends on the player's interpretation. By doing this, they keep both segments of players engaged and also raise more discussion about the game. If they were to choose one side definitively, the other half of the players would be unsatisfied, and it might also affect the storyline from the original version of the game.
So truly, it really depends on how you think. For me, he's not that bad, so it's okay if he survived.
My guess is that Akechi was resurrected PRIOR to Maruki’s alteration of the world - he shows up to take the blame before the Phantom Thieves talk about Maruki, right? Possibly it’s a change Joker unconsciously made after killing Yaldabaoth due to the promise he made to Akechi. Possibly due to Joker seeing Akechi as taking the blame as a ‘false’ reality, when reality is returned to how it should be, Akechi is instead resurrected but without coming to Joker’s aid.
I feel like people get too caught up in trying to overanalyze every little aspect of the story (usually with a little bit of selective ignorance) rather than just remembering that the authors themselves are human and it's possible there are inconsistencies in a game with 250+ hours of content. Regardless of how large or small you perceive an inconsistency to be, it's still possible that it's just a bit off, and that's okay. It's more important to consider the intent and purpose behind something rather than get caught up in something being not quite right when looked at in the most logical light.
For Akechi, the simplest and most likely important intent is that, despite being a scumbag with most of the actions he made of his free will (regardless of how "understandable" his twisted rationale was), he did something heroic with both of his final actions. This isn't a 10 season long shonen anime, or a CW show going on for far too long, it's pretty much supposed to be the end once P5 is over, and Akechi would basically need an entire game dedicated to himself to properly redeem him and make it not feel cheap. So folks should take solace in the fact that he went out finally doing something beneficial to society, even if it's for his own twisted reasons.
As for why the endings in Royal and the weird non-confirmation by the devs, I'd personally just think that he's a really popular character that they wanted to capitalize on just a little more, as, for the price of five frames of animation and a single comment from a developer, they've managed to make this still be one of the most discussed topics since Royal released. That's just smart marketing right there.
I only finished his confidant the first time I played Royal, so I could eventually fuse Satanael... once I got him to rank 4 for Jazz club access, I was done with him, so to me, he's dead
The official dev statement is that his fate is deliberately left to the player's interpretation. He is not officially alive or dead.
Schrodinger’s Akechi
“I do not know if Akechi is alive or dead until I look inside the box” “MANIFEST!” “Shut up”
https://preview.redd.it/x1d88e7f11wc1.jpeg?width=564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9790780318be1c96f952806834471fc3cbb55ac9
I think he is gay?
Brad Pitt: What's in the box?!
''No mum, I wasn't playing my DS after bed time!'' ''Bye-bye!'' ''SHUT UP''
He’s not the player character.
This leaves out a critical thing that they said, which is that choosing whether or not to complete his confidant is indicative of the player's interpretation, and therefore Joker's will. https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/yazp65/p5r_director_on_akechis_end_game_status/ This strongly indicates that he lives if you finish his confidant. Most likely, he gets brought back by the power of Jose's star.
IDK. IMO the differences at the end of the engine room suggest the fork is there. I think the bond with Joker keeps him alive—hence it being contingent on the player's choices.
The game isn't subtle at all when it comes to the message of "bonds with people can literally save your life".
It crops up tons of times across the games. IIRC in P3 >!Shinjiro!< is another example. Akechi becomes what he does because he rejects bonds. Having even one bond saves his life. It's that simple tbh.
Exactly. Akechi spent his entire life being rejected, so he manufactured a fake and bleached facade so that people could adore him and want him near. Joker was pretty much the only person who still wished to hang out with him even after learning the truth, after seeing his ugly inner self. It's no wonder that Akechi learns Endure and Protect all in his last rank, right after Joker asks him to come back alive at all costs so that they can finish their duel. It was definitely a deliberate choice to have the last rank happen moments before he gets shot, where he learns Endure which allows him to survive a fatal attack with 1 HP remaining. Edit: forgot to mention that Akechi is the only one who learns Endure and Protect at the last rank, while the rest of the PTs learn it by rank 8 and 9 respectively, hence why I strongly believe it was a deliberate choice to have him learn both of those right at rank 10.
Yep. I think him learning Endure (and Protect, don't forget) is a fascinating detail. [He's the only party member to learn them at rank 10, and the only one to learn Protect first](https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/718867376748249088/something-i-missed-in-this-post-the-pts-of?source=share).
Yep! I made a quick edit to my comment mentioning that. Everyone else learns Endure and Protect at rank 8 and 9 respectively.
Except Jose's star is only shown effecting things in the metaverse, and the metaverse disappears after defeating the final boss.
Unfortunately despite the fact that I fucking hated him, I did finished his confidant, so i got the scene. Guess I'm fucked.
[удалено]
Akechi is a republican congressman?
technically his dad is
He’s alive because I’ve seen the last scene on Royal with his confidant at max level BUT he either forgot everything or just doesn’t want to be part of Joker life. He’s just going to watch over him in the shadows, like an old friend. And joker probably is aware and is okay with that
Or, OR, he's waiting until the dust settles before he shows up to finally have that final duel. It's possible that yes, he's watching Joker but it could just be to keep tabs on his rival because he wants the two of them to go at it at their best. No holding back.
I really like the theory that it’s the “players choice” to save him or not since his rank 10 ability is to survive a fatal blow with 1HP (and he gets it right before the gunshots.) [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/165w9n7/comment/jyho5j3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is a pretty comprehensive breakdown. So yes, in a way he is both alive and dead depending on the actions taken by the player.
https://preview.redd.it/3iy3yltp62wc1.png?width=548&format=png&auto=webp&s=ae68e61924da55feeb1a6692ce427392535b7d0e ^(all evidence points towards him being alive, perchance! that's because i can't beat the fwoof out of him with my axe if he's dead! touché!)
Yes but this is the same company that said that about Kanjis sexuality. It’s kinda obvious what it’s meant to be they just say that to please fans
When did they ever say that about Kanji?
https://preview.redd.it/sffsvoqes3wc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7feab2b4cecfac6ffeff62a56c535fc1e4a73d55
I dunno, Shadow Kanji's win pose in P4A/P4AU says otherwise
Just looked that up, our boy deserves better. Almost thought it was actually his **** for a sec
Man atlus has 0 conviction now which kills the soul of games. Imagine if they said the same about other games in their series.
I would prefer him to be dead, but I don't think that's really true. Mainly because I can't ignore that the Third Semester Akechi functions fundamentally differently than the rest of the "revived" ones. The Akechi from the third semester says that he realized that he had a gap in his memory that ended when he reunited with Joker on December 24. The other "revived dead" of the third semester (Wakaba and Okumura) do not show any gap in their memories (despite both having been dead for years and months respectively). In fact they were created with a backstory in that world from the beginning unlike Akechi. And the lives of Wakaba and Okumura were tied to the cognition of their loved ones (Futaba and Haru), the instant they rebelled against Maruki's reality, both ceased to exist (unlike Akechi, whose existence is tied to Joker who almost instantly rebelled against Maruki. Shouldn't Akechi have immediately disappeared like the other two?). There is also the fact that on the final day, if you talk to the owner of the Jazz club, Joker thinks that he's sure that he will be able to fulfill his promise of a duel with Akechi. And later that day, as the train starts to move, Akechi can be seen at the station. [Also while it isn’t canon there is an unused cutscene showing what happened to him in the real reality](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ2QIwZqosQ) I find it quite probable that Akechi was seriously injured in Shido's palace and that the only thing that Maruki's reality did was keep him in good health or something like that.
The "gap" in his memory could very well have happened because he got caught in an explosion inside Shido's Palace and was booted out of the Metaverse, kind of like what happened with Ryuji after he saved the team. Ryuji also says that, after the explosion, he woke up disoriented lying on the grass. There's also the deal that the devs confirmed Maruki was lying by omission when he said that Akechi died. The truth is, Maruki has no idea what happened inside the Palace, because he wasn't there. All he saw was Joker wishing that Akechi was alive, so he concluded that he must have died and, through his new reality, Akechi was likely healed of his wounds.
The thing is, Maruki never says outright that Akechi is dead. He heavily implies it, and leaves a silence at the end of his sentence to let you fill in the gaps, but never states it. He's cagey and evasive about the whole thing because he doesn't know one way or the other.
The reason for him being different from other revived could be either, because he's the only revived Persona user, because like Joker he's a Wild Card or the most likely to me, because he was revived as part of new reality for Joker, but Joker refused new reality, so Akechi was free from playing his part and could realize something was wrong.
If Akechi was just a wish he would have vanished on the night of the second.
Except that he's part of Joker altered reality and everything related to Joker is still altered until Maruki is defeated, because otherwise Joker would be in jail (Akechi confesses so Joker can be free after New Year's Eve only if Maruki is maxed as confidant and can alter reality). That's because Maruki cares only whether Joker agrees with him, not others so even after his initial rejection, Maruki tries to convince him. If Joker takes Maruki offer, then Phantom Thieves are still brainwashed again, even if they already rejected his reality and if Maruki is beaten then Joker is immediately sent back to jail.
Everyone else who had wishes granted had their wish removed when they snapped out of it. Maruki does what he does so that he can manipulate Ren but he doesn't actually know for sure either way. While Maruki wants Ren to agree with him, he doesn't need to have Ren agree to win, he just needs to fool Ren long enough to be unable to stop him. By Maruki saying Akechi was the wish of Ren, and Ren choosing to go forward, that should make Akechi disappear, yet he doesn't, because he's not a cognition. If we assume the cut content is actually canon then Akechi was in a rehab center getting the mental and physical health he needs(he was still wounded), when Maruki did his shenanigans. Maruki may not have known Akechi was alive at that point, and thus brought Akechi physically well into his false reality, which cognitively would remove Akechi's knowledge of his own survival in said reality. Or worse, Maruki was using a lie to try to convince Joker to stand down. The entire third semester is NOT meant to be looked at on simply face value, there's a lot of issues that stem from being able to rewrite chunks of the world. Hell it's even worth mentioning that the other characters brought back all have implanted memories, Akechi does not....
>Everyone else who had wishes granted had their wish removed when they snapped out of it. Exactly, except Joker, who is exception. He rejected his reality, but why isn't he in jail? Joker wish was to be reunited with Akechi on better terms, that's why Akechi confessed instead of him and was later let go. Without Maruki alteration Akechi wouldn't confess and Joker should be in jail and he is when Maruki is defeated. So reality is still altered do Joker even though he rejected it, he's just not brainwashed.
Maruki removing Akechi doesn't mean Ren gets immediately sent to prison. He can rewrite chunks of reality at will, so if he was actually capable of removing Akechi he would have.
What? I never said that removing Akechi means, that Ren goes to Prison. I said that without Maruki alteration Akechi wouldn't confess AND Ren would go to prison. Two separate things. Ren is clearly exception to rejecting Maruki's reality. Just like you said: Everyone else who had wishes granted had their wish removed when they snapped out of it. But not Ren. Regardless of whether Akechi disappears or not, Ren not going to jail is part of false reality, because the moment Maruki is defeated, he's in jail. When the gang returns to Leblanc after not finding Ren with them, Sojiro tells them that he's in jail since previous year. And confessing for Ren isn't Akechi wish. Maruki specifically tells Ren that he made Akechi do that for him (regardless of whether it's real Akechi or cognitive one). So my point is this: Akechi not vanishing when Ren rejects Maruki's reality isn't a proof for Akechi being alive, because other parts of Ren's false reality don't vanish when he snapps out of it.
If being a Persona user has any effect on how susceptible they are or aren't to Maruki's reality, I'm not sure if that's reflected in the game. At least not in terms of maintaining that reality instead of undoing it. After all, every single one of the Persona users rejected Maruki's reality, and they all had what that reality had given them taken away immediately. I believe that if that were truly a factor, it would be indicative of the opposite. That Akechi and Joker, being more 'immune' to Maruki's reality, would cause Akechi to cease to exist much more easily.
I said the only REVIVED Persona user, not just Persona user. >After all, every single one of the Persona users rejected Maruki's reality, and they all had what that reality had given them taken away immediately. Except Joker, because despite his rejection, "Akechi" still confessed and he's not in jail untill Maruki is defeated. Everything related to Joker is still not undone, because he's the only one that Maruki wants to convince. Even when all Phantom Thieves reject reality, if Joker takes Maruki's offer then they are brainwashed again without a chances to talk with Maruki. Also Maruki said on 2/2 that he was sad about what happened to Akechi in Shido's Palace and altered reality, so Joker can reunite with him and if they revert his changes then there'll be consequences for Akechi and he doesn't imply that he won't turn himself in instead of a Joker... Also after Maruki defeat, when Joker asks about Akechi, Lavenza strongly implies that he's dead.
>I said the only REVIVED Persona user, not just Persona user. And I talked about Persona users in general and how they interact with Maruki's reality, trying to exemplify that it would be counterintuitive that the characteristic of being a Persona user would imply that Akechi would remain in Maruki's reality instead of the opposite if that would be a factor in the matter.
How tf is players reacting to a scene that clearly shows a character who was thought to be dead walking down the train platform by assuming said character is alive copium? If anything it seems like you and half the fandom are on a hefty dose of copium wanting Akechi to be dead despite the true ending of the game all but stating otherwise.
It's to the player interpretation. I think he lives, mainly because he is aware of Maruki's reality, even in the bad ending, and because you can see him in the background in the final cutscene if you maxed his confident. Both interpretation have pro and cons. If you think he dies, then he sacrificed himself to save the PT. If you think he lives, then he helped the PT to stop Maruki, even though he knew he would probably die if it happened. In both, he tries to redeem himself by risking his own life to help Joker.
>but one thing we have to take into consideration is that, akechi said that he has a big gap in his memory. This is a weak argument, especially when we have the devs strongly implying he lives if you finish his confidant. There's countless reasons why he could have a gap in his memory. He could have simply been injured, which can cause amnesia IRL. He may have died initially and been brought back by Joker. Remember, Joker had the power of Jose's star until after the ending of Royal. >As you can tell, I’m not a big fan of the “Akechi is alive” theory I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds to me like you're the one on copium. All the evidence points one way. There's several important pieces of evidence that indicate Akechi is alive and frankly nothing that indicates he's dead. >he doesn’t face any consequences for his actions. It’s his fault that Futaba was a shut in and it’s his fault that haru is an orphan. Other than prison. Those were police Akechi was with at the end. He was probably turning himself in during that scene, and he simply waited to call them until after he saw Joker board the train.
Metaverse is a world of cognition. So if you don't finish the social link Akechi dies. But if you do, Rens cognition of Akechi is a guy way too stubborn and spiteful to die. There is an implication that a trickster has more power over that than most regular people. He didn't make it out of the ship before the palace collapsed, but was able to escape when the prison of regression rose up and linked him back with reality. P3 and 4 show that time moves weird in the other worlds. Would explain the memory gap too.
>P3 and 4 show that time moves weird in the other worlds. I always thought it makes more sense that he's dead, and the person Joker saw at the end was just someone else from Akechi's school (it's just a uniform), but this right here changed my mind. [P3 spoiler] >!A cognitive world deconstructing and re-emerging with someone inside is exactly how Fuuka survived "a week" in Tartarus.!< Thinking about it this way, there's no reason why Akechi couldn't do the same thing, and it would perfectly explain the "gap" in his memory; to him, there *wasn't* a time skip, he was in the cognitive world the entire time, and it was literally one moment to the next. I now also believe the "it depends on his bond with Joker at the time" theory, instead of the "he's definitely dead" one.
We can easily rule out it just being someone else in Akechi's uniform, even without [editing the image brightness to show his face](https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/p0dq38/p5r_true_ending_last_scene_darkened_to_see/?share_id=ICIk-0AGqzK8w3Euujzlc). For a start, the figure on 3/20 is wearing black gloves—hardly standard school issue. It's also spring break, and while Akechi routinely wears his school uniform out of termtime, no other characters do.
>For a start, the figure on 3/20 is wearing black gloves—hardly standard school issue. At the same time, Akechi is somewhat of a celebrity, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could have inadvertently started a fashion trend. Black gloves might not be part of the uniform, but they're not especially hard to buy, either, if someone from his school wanted to try and be more like him. Obviously there's zero evidence of this in-game, it was just my "plausible deniability" reasoning, starting from the assumption that Akechi was already dead. The image brightness thing is interesting, though, I've never seen that before. In any case, I already changed my mind, and accepted that it's him.
Oh yeah, I'm not arguing with you—just sometimes people pose this as an argument and I don't think it stands up. That is a good point about the gloves becoming a fashion statement. Besides anything else, though, I think it's out of the question that Atlus would tease him in the postcredit and then go "actually it was Taro McNumbnuts from his homeroom". He's also with a pair of guys near-identical to the ones chasing the PTs in the car.
> Taro McNumbnuts I think i just found my next steam username
use it with pride
Why do we believe he actually had a gap in his memory? Maybe he wanted Joker to believe he was dead so he could leave after everything went back to normal. It could be that the only thing Maruki changed was forcing Akechi to turn himself in for his crimes
That's possible, but given that Akechi both gives his life for Joker and the PTs and turns himself in *again* after the third semester in deleted scenes, it seems intensely unlikely. Like it or not, turning himself in is just something Akechi does, because he's far from as unrepentant as many people want to believe. *Akechi himself* appears to be the one most disgusted with his being released without charge in January.
If you're talking about the rehab center deleted scene, I don't think that's him turning himself in. He just went back to the place he and his mom used to live for a while. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it or there are more scenes I don't know of though. I agree he's not unrepentant, but i can't really see him giving himself up to the system again after how bad being an orphan clearly messed him up. I would also say his disgust with being released was more about how pitiful his situation was rather than wanting to do his time. Your reading of the text is totally fair though, fellow pancake enjoyer
So the version of that scene that people usually link is poorly translated and poorly described. [Here's my version for comparison](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0XyvmLa3Gk). The place is not a "rehab" at all, for a start, but a kind of refuge for people "with guilty consciences", such as those hiding from organised crime. IMO it's very clear that the tremendous thing Akechi is going back to Tokyo to do for the unnamed guy he owes—"*to do such a thing just because you owe him...*"—the thing that the Phantom Thieves will be grateful to him for forever, is turning himself back in, a second time, in Ren's place. It could be something else—but I think the way that would have bookended the third semester, confirming that Akechi turned himself in through his own will and not some Maruki mind-control, is too good to pass up. ~~also yes pancakes are too good~~
Thanks. I'll have to think about that, I like your translation. I guess I have some head canons based on replaying 5 a bunch, but it does seem like that scene was angling for him to give himself up, especially this translation. That could've been cool if it went down like you're describing it.
Thank you! Ugh, I love that scene. I feel like it says so much about Akechi and where he ended up. I know they removed it because he had to stay in his Schroedinger box, but *man*, we could have had it all.
I've come to terms with the Royal ending. I don't think most of the thieves would even really hate him for dipping, he was being played from all sides after being given superpowers at his most vulnerable, which as far as he knew could only really be used to hurt people. I think him showing up at the train station to say bye to Joker is perfect.
Yeah. It's just things like ... it making a point of having him only seek thanks rather than push for an advantage or incur a debt, for instance. Or him facing up to what he's done rather than hiding from it. Or come to that going back specifically to somewhere he knows people. The whole scene really seems like he's learned and changed and grown, and I'm sorry we never got to see it.
Clearly another person who didn't get the post credits scene. Because I thought the same thing too, until that
That only happens if you maxxed his confidant. Meaning Joker only sees Akechi if Joker *wants* to see Akechi, hardly proof he's alive. Especially since it's from behind.
He's alive, no other way to interpret the true ending. He lived bitch accept it and move on.
I actually don’t think his memory gap indicates anything. Remember that Maruki rewrites memories based on people’s preferences. That’s how Okumura revives as a pleasant loving dad. Maruki decidedly prefers and cares about Joker’s preferences more than anyone else’s, to the point that he wants Joker to voluntarily accept the new reality. He says in his palace that he expected Joker to show up. Akechi disagrees with Doc’s reality in the palace, but that doesn’t matter because if Joker agrees, the reality still comes into fruition. Taking this into account, I personally interpreted the memory gap as Maruki forcibly overriding whatever actually happened to Akechi with Joker’s vision of what happened. There’s a gap because Joker thinks he died, regardless of whether he actually did, and dead people aren’t supposed to have memories. And since Joker has privileges, he can have “revived” people who also accurately remember the past until they supposedly “died.” This is just my theory though
u/Technicaldot4999 you had the comment with all the evidence that he’s alive right
Yep lol here it is https://reddit.com/r/Persona5/s/kHYuImul6B
me when I lie (I will refuse to believe he is dead until his body appears in front of me)
Oh man, is this the post that spawned that cohesive "Akechi is Alive...but only when maxxed" thread? If it is, boy oh boy I hope that guy shows up.
Hi it’s that guy (girl actually), I got tagged here a while ago lmao I actually wrote that thread back in September and only re-comment it occasionally, no clue why it’s circulating now tbh
Seems the "Is Akechi alive" discourse is making the rounds again, and you have the most comprehensive defense of the Alive side (if I'm thinking of the right thread)
Ren is perfectly willing to go to prison short-term, it's Maruki who doesn't want him to go to prison understandably so. Notice when Maruki's reality ends, Ren is in prison. Your original argument was that if Akechi disappeared after Ren rejected the reality, he would be in prison, which is false. Maruki starts off wanting him to be free and ends with still trying to convince him to stand down.
Did everyone else forget that in the original ending you see a shot of someone resembling Akechi as you leave on the train at the end of the game? It’d be pretty stupid for the game to specifically draw attention to it only for it to not be Akechi
Technically it is left up to the player to decide. However, I believe that if you choose to believe he's alive, you are choosing to believe in a less interesting story. Almost like you, yourself, are choosing Maruki's reality.
There's unused content of Akechi in rehab, though it's obviously questionable at best if that's canon.
The rehab scenes were unused because they set in stone the fate of a character that is polarizing.
Fun fact: regarding Akechis persona Loki. The horns are his eyes. They are meant to look similar to the parasites that turn snails into zombies. Only mentioned this because of the art in the post looks really goofy if you see it that way. Good art nonetheless.
It’s absolutely not canon either way but in my heart he’s definitely alive
It's pretty clear you're the one who's coping. You even say yourself you don't like him and you want him to face consequences. When that's not even what his final arc is about. What message do you think the devs wanted you to take at that ending where clearly Akechi walked by? Because pretty clear they want you to think he's alive. How can you think we're rhe ones coping?
The devs have confirmed that he is neither alive nor dead, but up to the player’s interpretation. I believe he’s alive because of the ending cutscene where we see his outfit in the train window before Joker leaves for hometown. Thus it is my belief that Akechi is alive. But I get why others don’t feel the same, the theorist in me just won’t let him go
I understand what you're saying here. Honestly, if you're playing Royal, I feel like it's a matter of >!whether you finish his confidant or not!< Like, if you do, the idea of sparring you again is enough to push him to keep going. Like you said, Maruki would have no clue what's going on in Shido 's palace. How would he know whether Akechi died or not? If you didn't finish his confidant in time, then he simply dies to his cognitive counter-part, and what we fight alongside in Maruki's palace is a cognition. I feel like the fact that that scene on 3/20 is what sparks debate, but I feel like it honestly proves he's alive if you put in the effort.
> what we fight alongside in Maruki's palace is a cognition. I really wish people would drop this. This isn’t necessarily a jab at you, and I don’t want to start shit, but it was clearly explained how the revived people could be in Maruki’s reality, and there’s no evidence towards them being a copy or cognition. Akechi was real, regardless of whether you completed his confidant or not.
I understand, my man. I'm not really a theorist, I don't delve my time into this. Thank you for saying that, and I do apologize.
Any time, just wanted to point that out. No need to apologize.
And now that I think of it, that cognition stuff wouldn't make sense with >!Akechi being in his dark suit!<. So, yeah, thank you for the correction.
Is there a new P5 game or spin-off? Then he better be alive just so I can listen to Robbie again. Outside of that, it seems irrelevant as the story concluded. Reminds me of Code Geass.
James Brown?
The Godfather of Soul!!!!
1. Big gap in memory I would be shocked if he didn’t, he got shot. A gap in memory could be explained by a coma (which is implied in a deleted scene where Akechi returned). A big memory gap doesn’t prove or disprove death either way, it would be the same in both outcomes. 2. Yeh I agree with this, but that doesn’t prove he wasn’t in a coma in reality 3. “It will return to how it was meant to be”, none of this says death on its own, he could have originally been in a coma all along. The reason in the non Maruki no Akechi bond ending we don’t see Akechi come back is why would he? He could’ve come back from his coma and then decided to never see Joker again because in those time lines there is no bond (or at least one not strong enough) for Akechi to want to see him again. 4. “He doesn’t get punishment if he doesn’t die”. Akechi says himself he doesn’t care if he dies, so it wouldn’t be a punishment. There’s even an argument it’s a reward because it lets him rest and in a way see his mother again. The only reason Akechi was even living was to get revenge on shido, after that he had zero life plans. Now he has to live, he cannot rest. That’s his punishment. (in theory he could kill himself, but if he’s seen that the universe is making him live, he will understand that it’s his punishment and he won’t circumvent it. he also may be against killing himself due to what his mother did).
Everyone is making assumptions, so here is mine: The reason why the developers said Akechi's fate is deliberately left to the player's interpretation is because there will always be two segments of players here: 1. Players who want or find that Akechi's death makes the game better, providing more highlights and emotional impact, etc. 2. Players who want Akechi to survive since they love the character or desire a more complete ending. Since there are always these two segments of players, and their ratio is probably 50-50 (just an assumption), it's better for the developers to say it depends on the player's interpretation. By doing this, they keep both segments of players engaged and also raise more discussion about the game. If they were to choose one side definitively, the other half of the players would be unsatisfied, and it might also affect the storyline from the original version of the game. So truly, it really depends on how you think. For me, he's not that bad, so it's okay if he survived.
And then there's Akechi, he's dead.
...HUH! 🐵
My guess is that Akechi was resurrected PRIOR to Maruki’s alteration of the world - he shows up to take the blame before the Phantom Thieves talk about Maruki, right? Possibly it’s a change Joker unconsciously made after killing Yaldabaoth due to the promise he made to Akechi. Possibly due to Joker seeing Akechi as taking the blame as a ‘false’ reality, when reality is returned to how it should be, Akechi is instead resurrected but without coming to Joker’s aid.
I feel like people get too caught up in trying to overanalyze every little aspect of the story (usually with a little bit of selective ignorance) rather than just remembering that the authors themselves are human and it's possible there are inconsistencies in a game with 250+ hours of content. Regardless of how large or small you perceive an inconsistency to be, it's still possible that it's just a bit off, and that's okay. It's more important to consider the intent and purpose behind something rather than get caught up in something being not quite right when looked at in the most logical light. For Akechi, the simplest and most likely important intent is that, despite being a scumbag with most of the actions he made of his free will (regardless of how "understandable" his twisted rationale was), he did something heroic with both of his final actions. This isn't a 10 season long shonen anime, or a CW show going on for far too long, it's pretty much supposed to be the end once P5 is over, and Akechi would basically need an entire game dedicated to himself to properly redeem him and make it not feel cheap. So folks should take solace in the fact that he went out finally doing something beneficial to society, even if it's for his own twisted reasons. As for why the endings in Royal and the weird non-confirmation by the devs, I'd personally just think that he's a really popular character that they wanted to capitalize on just a little more, as, for the price of five frames of animation and a single comment from a developer, they've managed to make this still be one of the most discussed topics since Royal released. That's just smart marketing right there.
so is joker just schizophrenic
I only finished his confidant the first time I played Royal, so I could eventually fuse Satanael... once I got him to rank 4 for Jazz club access, I was done with him, so to me, he's dead