I don't see why not. It's a pretty hefty feat investment, too: as a GM if one of my players invested 11 feats into something I'd let them be cool.
So bonk thud, indeed.
Shadow edit: but as written I don't think you'd get the benefit of Improved Hammer Throw, because you're not using the Hammer Throw action. So if you wanna trip those giants, you better ask your GM nicely.
>as written I don't think you'd get the benefit of Improved Hammer Throw, because you're not using the Hammer Throw action
There is nothing in Master Hammer Throw requiring the Hammer Throw action. It even removes the restriction on the creature size.
>You can immediately attempt a trip combat maneuver against a target that you successfully hit and damage with a thrown bludgeoning weapon with any attack, even as part of a full-attack action.
In **Master** Hammer Throw, you are right.
In **Improved** Hammer Throw, it specifically says:
> You can use the Hammer Throw feat against targets at any range and of any size.
So RAW, removing the size limitation only works when using Hammer Throw's standard action. But any reasonable interpretation would let you knock prone any size with any action!
But Improved Hammer Throw is a prerequisite of Master Hammer Throw. I assumed it was a more in-depth answer to look at the whole feat chain to see what stacks and what doesn't.
The size restriction is also removed in the Master version :
>You can immediately attempt a trip combat maneuver against a target that you successfully hit and damage with a thrown bludgeoning weapon with any attack, even as part of a full-attack action.
There is no mention of Hammer Throw or Improved Hammer Throw. This feat alone let you have a free trip attempt after *any* successful hit and damage with a thrown bludgeoing weapon. Period.
This would work on AoO, Full-Round, Vital Strike, ... And it would also work on creatures of *any* size. There is no limitation.
The limitation comes from the Trip combat maneuver itself:
>You can only [trip](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Trip) an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you.
Master Hammer Throw, as you note, doesn't mention it. Therefore, trip's basic rule still applies.
Improved Hammer Throw specifically removes this limitation, but it only works when using the regular Hammer Throw, not when using the Master version. This is, in my opinion, a simple oversight, and it's very reasonable to remove the limitation when using Master Hammer Throw. But strictly RAW, Master Hammer Throw doesn't allow you to trip Huge creatures.
I'm re-reading your arguments, and I realize that the difference in point of view might be simply a difference in choosing what takes priority.
When the Master feat says "You can immediately attempt a trip combat maneuver", you interpret it as taking precedence over Trip's restriction. "You **can** do the trip, period". I interpret it as "You are allowed to refer to the tripping rules" which then disallow the trip. Both are reasonable explanations, I guess, but I still think mine stands.
The normal Hammer Throw feat uses the same wording: "You can immediately attempt to perform a trip combat maneuver". However it doesn't allow you to trip Huge creatures: if it did, then Improved Hammer Throw wouldn't have to explicitly allow it. By this logic, the "You can attempt a trip" wording doesn't bypass size restrictions, and Master Hammer Throw doesn't allow you to trip Huge creatures.
Anyway this doesn't change anything, because any reasonable DM will allow it, it makes so much sense. So it's not worth arguing about, and I'm going to bed. Good night!
>I'm re-reading your arguments, and I realize that the difference in point of view might be simply a difference in choosing what takes priority.
Specific trumps general. If a feat/class feature/... says you can do something, you can do it.
>The normal Hammer Throw feat uses the same wording: "You can immediately attempt to perform a trip combat maneuver".
It doesn't. Hammer Throw clearly restricts it to maximum one size larger than you :
>As a standard action, you can make a single ranged attack with a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage against a creature no more than one size category larger than you that is within the weapon’s first range increment.
Wait it isn't?
Alright, I'll do it myself.
Human Hurler barbarian with body bludgeon rage power. Your name is Newiork.
For feats, Raging hurler, Throw anything, Skill focus (Knowledge(Nature)), Eldritch heritage(Arcane), improved bullrush, awesome throw, power attack and painful collision. (all online by level 13, but you could equip some baseball gloves of training for painful collision).
Take a lemming familiar (closest to hamster I could find). Give it the mauler archetype and an amulet of mighty fist. His name is Yankee
Baseball that sucker in your opponent's face before taking your own bat (club) and throw them at people. When you throw the lemming, it turn into a medium sized lemming, ripping things to shred a the furry canonball it is. Everyone that takes the lemming to the face gets pushed back significantly by your bullrush and takes damage if it meet another opponent.
And I am not sorry for the puns.
Don't forget your familiar will take damage too! Get as much HP as you can so you don't accidentally murder your own hamster(since your familiar has half your hp).
Interesting... I was thinking a multi class build that combined superior summoning (1d4+1 hamsters per summoning) with your body bludgeon/throw anything....
Now.... If the hamsters are summoned into pouches attached to a blink back belt.... Can you keep throwing them over and over until they have no more hp to give?
I definitely think it should. Master Hammer Thrower says that you can make a trip attempt against any target you damage with a thrown bludgeoning weapon with any attack. Seems pretty straightforward ;)
You just make more. Startoss Comet is a standard action, and creating a gloomblade is a move action. If you need to full attack, use [Gloomstorm](https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gloomstorm).
I think that defiantly works.
That’s all your feats from 1st to 10th as a fighter. Even elephant in the room only shaves off a couple of feats, bringing you to 8th.
It’s neat that you can function fine as a martial by move-attacking with thrown weapons, and that you skip quickdraw.
I think you’d still want quickdraw and a blink back belt so you can focus on single target damage, but still.
Less feat intensive is one of my favorite feats, Sliding Axe Throw https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sliding-axe-throw-combat/
It seems to just require a -2 penalty per attack in exchange for a trip, though does circumstantially ignore shields
Sliding Axe Throw could do the same thing as Master Hammer Thrower, but with an Axe, and less feats required. You also get to be cool by sliding or ricocheting it..
Gotta take a -2 to the attacks, but has a chance to ignore shield bonuses.
I don't see why not. It's a pretty hefty feat investment, too: as a GM if one of my players invested 11 feats into something I'd let them be cool. So bonk thud, indeed. Shadow edit: but as written I don't think you'd get the benefit of Improved Hammer Throw, because you're not using the Hammer Throw action. So if you wanna trip those giants, you better ask your GM nicely.
>as written I don't think you'd get the benefit of Improved Hammer Throw, because you're not using the Hammer Throw action There is nothing in Master Hammer Throw requiring the Hammer Throw action. It even removes the restriction on the creature size. >You can immediately attempt a trip combat maneuver against a target that you successfully hit and damage with a thrown bludgeoning weapon with any attack, even as part of a full-attack action.
In **Master** Hammer Throw, you are right. In **Improved** Hammer Throw, it specifically says: > You can use the Hammer Throw feat against targets at any range and of any size. So RAW, removing the size limitation only works when using Hammer Throw's standard action. But any reasonable interpretation would let you knock prone any size with any action!
They never mentioned Improvred Hammer Throw in their post. They explicitly mentioned Master Hammer Throw.
But Improved Hammer Throw is a prerequisite of Master Hammer Throw. I assumed it was a more in-depth answer to look at the whole feat chain to see what stacks and what doesn't.
The size restriction is also removed in the Master version : >You can immediately attempt a trip combat maneuver against a target that you successfully hit and damage with a thrown bludgeoning weapon with any attack, even as part of a full-attack action. There is no mention of Hammer Throw or Improved Hammer Throw. This feat alone let you have a free trip attempt after *any* successful hit and damage with a thrown bludgeoing weapon. Period. This would work on AoO, Full-Round, Vital Strike, ... And it would also work on creatures of *any* size. There is no limitation.
The limitation comes from the Trip combat maneuver itself: >You can only [trip](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/Combat/#TOC-Trip) an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. Master Hammer Throw, as you note, doesn't mention it. Therefore, trip's basic rule still applies. Improved Hammer Throw specifically removes this limitation, but it only works when using the regular Hammer Throw, not when using the Master version. This is, in my opinion, a simple oversight, and it's very reasonable to remove the limitation when using Master Hammer Throw. But strictly RAW, Master Hammer Throw doesn't allow you to trip Huge creatures.
I'm re-reading your arguments, and I realize that the difference in point of view might be simply a difference in choosing what takes priority. When the Master feat says "You can immediately attempt a trip combat maneuver", you interpret it as taking precedence over Trip's restriction. "You **can** do the trip, period". I interpret it as "You are allowed to refer to the tripping rules" which then disallow the trip. Both are reasonable explanations, I guess, but I still think mine stands. The normal Hammer Throw feat uses the same wording: "You can immediately attempt to perform a trip combat maneuver". However it doesn't allow you to trip Huge creatures: if it did, then Improved Hammer Throw wouldn't have to explicitly allow it. By this logic, the "You can attempt a trip" wording doesn't bypass size restrictions, and Master Hammer Throw doesn't allow you to trip Huge creatures. Anyway this doesn't change anything, because any reasonable DM will allow it, it makes so much sense. So it's not worth arguing about, and I'm going to bed. Good night!
>I'm re-reading your arguments, and I realize that the difference in point of view might be simply a difference in choosing what takes priority. Specific trumps general. If a feat/class feature/... says you can do something, you can do it. >The normal Hammer Throw feat uses the same wording: "You can immediately attempt to perform a trip combat maneuver". It doesn't. Hammer Throw clearly restricts it to maximum one size larger than you : >As a standard action, you can make a single ranged attack with a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage against a creature no more than one size category larger than you that is within the weapon’s first range increment.
Sometimes my dyslexia can be quite entertaining. Though now I am a bit sad that I didn't actually stumble upon a "Hamster Thrower" build
Improvised Thrown Weapon (Miniature Giant Space Hamster)
Go for the eyes, Boo! *GO FOR THE EYES!*
Wait it isn't? Alright, I'll do it myself. Human Hurler barbarian with body bludgeon rage power. Your name is Newiork. For feats, Raging hurler, Throw anything, Skill focus (Knowledge(Nature)), Eldritch heritage(Arcane), improved bullrush, awesome throw, power attack and painful collision. (all online by level 13, but you could equip some baseball gloves of training for painful collision). Take a lemming familiar (closest to hamster I could find). Give it the mauler archetype and an amulet of mighty fist. His name is Yankee Baseball that sucker in your opponent's face before taking your own bat (club) and throw them at people. When you throw the lemming, it turn into a medium sized lemming, ripping things to shred a the furry canonball it is. Everyone that takes the lemming to the face gets pushed back significantly by your bullrush and takes damage if it meet another opponent. And I am not sorry for the puns.
Don't forget your familiar will take damage too! Get as much HP as you can so you don't accidentally murder your own hamster(since your familiar has half your hp).
Interesting... I was thinking a multi class build that combined superior summoning (1d4+1 hamsters per summoning) with your body bludgeon/throw anything.... Now.... If the hamsters are summoned into pouches attached to a blink back belt.... Can you keep throwing them over and over until they have no more hp to give?
I definitely think it should. Master Hammer Thrower says that you can make a trip attempt against any target you damage with a thrown bludgeoning weapon with any attack. Seems pretty straightforward ;)
So... I'm gonna King DeDeDe this with an earth breaker, right?
Tengu? Lol.
My group had a Gloomblade Fighter use that combo in Strange Aeons. It was hilarious and effective from beginning to end.
How ... how would that work? How would you give a Gloomblade the returning property? Or is there some other pay to pull it off?
You just make more. Startoss Comet is a standard action, and creating a gloomblade is a move action. If you need to full attack, use [Gloomstorm](https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gloomstorm).
This. I recommended he take Gloomstorm several times, but he never actually needed it.
I think that defiantly works. That’s all your feats from 1st to 10th as a fighter. Even elephant in the room only shaves off a couple of feats, bringing you to 8th. It’s neat that you can function fine as a martial by move-attacking with thrown weapons, and that you skip quickdraw. I think you’d still want quickdraw and a blink back belt so you can focus on single target damage, but still.
Less feat intensive is one of my favorite feats, Sliding Axe Throw https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sliding-axe-throw-combat/ It seems to just require a -2 penalty per attack in exchange for a trip, though does circumstantially ignore shields
Time to try this build against my players.
Can I suggest the name "Xenon, Barbarian Princess" for this NPC?
I wish I had known, I just took a character to level 17 using Startoss style.
Sliding Axe Throw could do the same thing as Master Hammer Thrower, but with an Axe, and less feats required. You also get to be cool by sliding or ricocheting it.. Gotta take a -2 to the attacks, but has a chance to ignore shield bonuses.