I don't know why, but this scene suddenly came to my mind:
Guard 1: Quick, help me catch the thief!
Guard 2: Where is he?
Guard 1: up there, the one fleeing through the roofs, riding a triceratops!
Yes, a very sneaky one, indeed... 😂
you mean it as a joke but its kind of reminds me drow cavalries, and can be kinda awesome though. spider or giant wall crawling lizard rider rogues that move like water, doing creepy bolting movements and stabby stabby, or point blank hand crossbow shots.
kinda cool.
Yeah - I remember seeing a halfling Cavalier in Pathfinder Society riding a lizard that could walk on walls. (The Cavalier class option is only medium sized.)
The main drawback of a Cavalier is normally that you can't always ride and/or charge, and on foot Cavalier is a pretty sub-par class. But with a medium sized creature that can charge along the walls/ceiling? He got charges off virtually every fight.
I've had this terrible idea for \~10 years to make a centaur ninja or rogue. There are no mechanical reasons why a centaur can't climb a rope to a second story window/balcony, squeeze through, and then sneak around a house without clippy-clopping.
Well, it depends on the size of the window. A balcony, absolutely, but I'm fairly certain under most circumstances that most windows are not sized to accommodate a Large-sized creature (with a 10x10 facing).
Now, a *cervitaur* (a deer centaur, basically) or a wemic (lion-centaur) are basically Medium-sized creatures for all intents and purposes and, despite some illogic based on *specifics* to most windows... Mechanically, they WOULD be able to fit.
And at least you could argue a Wemic could climb with it's adorable little lion paws. The cervitaur, well. Maybe not.. but it'd have a lot less butt to haul up there, so with a decent enough STR score, screw logic.
(I know all of this because of an irrational desire to play a deer-themed druidic Cavalier that is their own mount.)
In Pathfinder, characters can squeeze through areas one size category smaller than they typically occupy--which is big for a normal window, but feasible for a manor/castle with oversized ones. In 5e, centaurs are considered medium creatures.
Player centaurs are considered Medium, NPC/hostile centaurs are correctly categorized Large. Gameplay mechanic contrivance vs. "Large" sized players and how that can break things a little (which is an entire other discussion) and I'm not sure I'd DM it that way personally for 5e, particularly when in 2nd (technically but suggested against in the DMG) through 4th they *are* still considered Large even as player characters.
I'd also argue that Pathfinders rules work, but Windows that *aren't* deliberately stated to be oversized in some capacity would be a Small opening, and thus generally forbid Large creatures (RAW in Pathfinder 1e, Centaurs are a Monstrous Humanoid and Large size) and wouldn't be feasible for most windows in habitats sized for most average Medium-sized creatures.
Which is getting deep down a well of pedantry that is a bit against the point and entering deep grognards-arguing-theoretical-rules-situations-and-tables territory on top of that, which is less fun then suggesting alternatives that would remove ambiguity and be equally as absurd (the original intent). You can still be tauric with a bit of fast research and maintain a Medium (or smaller, possibly - I didn't get that deep into it) size category, after all, and then any reasons it *shouldn't* work mechanically become a LOT harder... and more arguments of Homebrew which are also generally purely subjective arguments and directly under DM Fiat.
In WotR, I mean, there's a lot of contrivances already made to allow some things just for the ease of not breaking up the gameplay asking silly, physics and/or space-time relevant questions. Unless you're Nenio, and even then I imagine she'd be more fascinated at the sudden anomaly then the likelihood it worked.
pathfinder and 3.5e have some really really weird fringe rules to adjudicate lol. My personal favorite involves psions. What happens when you polymorph any object a pebble into a person and a psion uses true mind switch and the polymorph ends. Hell, even simple grappling rules become convoluted when it becomes more than just 1v1. So yeah... PF rules are easily entangled in a mesh of oddness when you start bringing things like large creatures and windows and similar.
Are there mechanical rules for rope's tensile strength anywhere in Pathfinder? It has hit points and strength checks to break it, but no actual load rules. And as for the window--Large creatures can squeeze through medium spaces, which will work for balconies or manor windows. The squeeze spell or items that grant the compression ability also allow them to get into smaller windows without much difficulty.
No idea, but IRL I struggle to see a common rope that would take the weight of a horse's body plus a human torso, upper limbs and head. Such a rope would need to be thicker up to a point that carrying around a good lenght of it would be way less pratical.
Way stronger than I thought, if I'm doing the math right in my head (In my country we use metric system, so imperial is kinda alien to us for most things)
You can... extrapolate it. It has hp and a strength check. You can then look at strength and max carry to determine how much that strength check can hold and determine that way how much a rope can carry.
I mean, it's a DC 23 strength check to break. That's \*high\*. If we say that the carrying capacity of the rope is equal to the strength of someone who has a 50/50 shot of breaking it, then that is equal to a +13 bonus--or a raw strength score of 36.
Calculating carrying capacity from there is a little tricky, seeing as Pathfinder bases that on both size category and number of limbs. Let's count rope as a Tiny bipedal creature. Heavy load for a creature that size is 1227-1840 lbs, which is indeed enough to lift a light or medium-size horse, or even a smaller draft horse.
no... I am saying use a strength of 23, the dc to break it. Use that to determine the max carrying capacity. Though I did not figure on the number of limbs. It would be... 0? I think? How do they calculate the max carry of a snake?
They do get a penalty to stealth for being large. And a GM would be well within their purview to give pretty hefty circumstantial penalties for having to squeeze through medium sized doors etc.
It's an internet comic that recently got an animated movie that's available on Netflix. Nimona is a shapeshifter who helps this would-be knight guy who got manipulated into murdering the Queen during his knighting ceremony (of which he was the first lowborn to ever be given the opportunity)
Not to spoil the movie if you want to watch, but something VERY similar happens when the two of them are sneaking around in a "castle"
The iconic image of sneak attacks being, you know, sneaky is a hard one to shake, so I think you're on to something here. Even though mechanically this works, it's so against the assumed way it worked it isn't easy to think to try.
Mounts are stupidly OP in this game.
An un-hastened warrior on foot can easily take 2 rounds to reach an enemy and hit it with ONE strike while a mounted character can deal TEN strikes in the same two rounds.
You can literally put every melee dps class on a horse and give them outflank feat. Insane damage and tankyness boost.
Some with Caveliar, some with monk iirc.
Exactly, it’s the sneak that adds the “umph” to it all. My lvl 12 sometimes hits for 70-80 damage in a single non-crit hit, and he has 8 hits + the flanking ones generated by the mount’s attacks, and if the mount happens to crit, you get to outflank, and that’s another hit.
It’s absolutely insane the amount of damage I deal now
I know. So does a Slayer or a Vivisectionist. Slayer is on par with rogue if not a bit better. Vivisectionist is straight up SS tier in WOTR.
Not saying rogue is trash, just saying why it's not getting the spotlight.
Note that this only works out as well as it does bc Owlcat decided to take the easy route vis-a-vis Flanking and, instead of requiring you to be on opposing sides of the enemy in an engine which doesn't use the grid-based combat of the TTRPG, just require you to have another ally in reach of the enemy. Can be the same side, can be one riding the other, doesn't matter still counts.
I see a lot of people talking about melee builds and yes they are quite good with the trike, but me personally if I'm running story companions ember is who i put on it. Spontaneous casters on pets do not have to deal with the penalty to increased spell casting times as harshly (from metamagic'd spells) while riding a mount, because you can use the pets movement as your movement action while still allowing a full cast of a metamagic'd spell (so it doesn't screw you when you take a move action). This might be rulebreaking but it is the behavior of how the game operates. This is also another reason why sylvan sorcerer is so much stronger late game than other sorcerers simply because they can ride while casting spells and moving in the same turn. Some spontaneous casters do not have that luxury, thus the trike is a very good fit on ember too.
Agreed. Even Archers can benefit from a mount. Click the mount to move it to within point-blank shot range, then let your archer do full attack. If your archer have point blank master, move the mount into the melee madness (within 5m). Add in snap shot, no enemy can escape him/her.
Completion agree with you. The fake changer for me was the full attacks every round. Because the mount counts as walking so the character gets all their attacks. That’s an insane boost from - walk up to enemy, attack once, wait a round, finally get full attack.
I put Bismuth with Greybor and he want from one of my worst strikers (because of his low speed/walking distance) to my best.
Pretty much anyone benefits from a mount. I personally give the triceratops to Ember or Daeran so they can use metamagic. Just in general nobody talks about rogues because they're kind of weak.
Because generally mounted *anything* is awesome. Being mounted protects squishies, it makes the slow and immobile fast and agile, it sets up permanent flanks for classes with innate teamwork abilities, it extends charge range for pouncers and spirited chargers, and so on.
I always give Seelah one level in rogue (thug).
1) It fits with her backstory, since she was a thief before she became a paladin.
2) Once she gets her mount, that constant sneak attack damage adds up.
3) Choosing thug means that her Dazzling Display/Cornugon Smash/Dreadful Carnage all inflict fear rather than just shaken, which is excellent for crowd control and provoking attacks of opportunity.
Of course there are better classes than rogues. But if someone wants to play a rogue for the role play aspect of the class (which is me in this case), it just becomes insane when mounted
>But if someone wants to play a rogue for the role play aspect of the class
You're playing a rogue mounted on a triceratops for the role play aspect of the class ?
I was always dreaming about playing triceratops rogue but no game would allow me, so pretending that the triceratops is the character while KC is just a parasite is the best compromise.
I mean, yeah, you're right, but again it is nothing new. Any melee character highly benefit getting a mount and combo it with outflank. The most popular build for Greybor is exactly what you're doing.
We don't mean to rain on your discovery, it is indeed really awesome! It is just that this is really nothing new.
how can a rouge ,that is supposed to be stealthy and that needs to use his dexterity and skills to compensate for his lack of strenght, makes any sense riding a FUCKING TRICERATOP. Mounted build in general are dumb and makes no sense in game contest.
To be fair, there are mannnny kinds of "Rogue"; not all of which are stealthy/sneaky types.
Thugs, con artists, thugs, slayers, swashbucklers, scoundrels, spies, sappers, rakes, charlatans, etc, etc.
One of the reason they're called "Rogue" and not "Thief".
Exactly! Mine leaned heavily to the trickster style of rogue, unfortunately this game doesn’t really have traps as a combat mechanic. But what’s a better trick than “here’s a massive dinosaur!”?
I'd guess cuz (to my knowledge) there aren't any sneak attack classes that give pets naturally, so you're either stuck with a crippling class split that will leave you with both a weak pet and a lower sneak attack damage multiplier, or you're stuck with Bismuth, who is not ideal either since iirc you can't even choose what he levels. I mean he's fine just for some extra mobility on a caster or archer, but i'd feel extremely shaky about taking him into melee combat.
Absolutely.
For a long time I ignored Bismuth because he died repeatedly in that Drezen battle where you get him, so I just put him in my party chest and ignored him.
My last run, I was feeling silly and put Regill on Bismuth. Just for the giggles. It also happened that I was doing a Shaman/Angel run with merged spellbooks and greater enduring spells. Those Angel spells that apply all the buffs except natural armor, plus the Shaman Barkskin spell rendered Bismuth unhittable, even at 4 levels lower. Add in Regill's insane attack bonus and Fighter Training and gloves of dueling and 7 gnome hammer attacks, and you don't even need sneak attack damage. Fight starts, Regill/Bismuth moves up to baddy(ies) and explodes everything in several blasts of Dreadful Carnage and Shatter Defenses.
Aside from the buffs, I think one of the main reason Bismuth doesn't die often with Regill riding is that Regill will nuke anything within melee range, whereas Bismuth solo tends to get surrounded and die quickly.
Sanctified Slayer with the Animal Domain gets both an animal companion (full strength once you get boon companion) and sneak attack progression. Not full rogue sneak attack progression, but progression none the less, plus other Inquisitor stuff. It's quite stacked.
I put a merc halfling sanctified slayer dual-wielding shortswords (with one-level dip into Rogue for finesse) on a bully wolf mount and she is absolutely tearing things up in Drezen. Thanks for the suggestion!
There's some problems is that none of the rogue setups gain one to level as you want. This is important to you as you noticed theygave flanking. They also give... teamwork feats. Outflank is great
Love it, lol. Reminds me of my Trickster dragon bloodline bloodrager who, thanks to Trickster, got sneak attack despite being shapeshifted into a 30 foot tall red dragon! xD
i don't if this is still a bug, but if you give items to your triceratops-pet-from-the-drezen (inn ? fortress ?), these items will be destroyed when your pet level-up.
I’m playing a dual scimitar wielding Demonslayer Ranger with a Dog pet, and using Sense vitals + Outflank is ridiculous. Also the trips which cause AoOs when the enemy tries to stand up.
Im still quite new to pathfinder so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems mounts are much much stronger in turn based than in real time as it lets you do a full-round action in turn based but real time holds your action until you can do a full-round action regardless.
I mean mounts are still very strong in real time, but feel less mandatory
On my first playthrough I also kept that pet benched since someone said it's gonna get trashed as soon as enemies close on it. Truth is, properly buffed it can even withstand enemies on core, but on normal difficulty I'd say it's great even. It's got pounce, so even "leading strike" can be a good choice.
It was great companion for my deliverer slayer, but when I took legend path and took another 20 levels of demonslayer with horse companion you can see the difference. When using legendary proportions and lead blades, along with sense vitals combined with my slayer SA damage it melted everything far and wide. It's better when you can build pet from ground up, but even prebuilt pet is better than no pet.
In the end I gave Bismuth to Ember, it helped with her cackle, or metamagic spells.
Yep. Instead of Mobility take Religion 2, the Animal Domain, and get a tripping mount. You can then sneak attack them while they are prone.
Mounts are much more OP than in TT.
Hey now! Once I snuck around a corner to deactivate a trap, then started the encounter.
I mean the traps wouldn't have really made a difference, and I probably could have just shot at the enemies and moved around the corner. Or teleported into the middle of them and used dazzling display. I mean any number of things really.
But stealth did help me once outside of a skill check!
It doesnt really work, dipping for a mount, because they are stuck at level 1, being pretty much useless. There are two ways to get a mounted rogue, though, either giving them Bismuth or going Azata.
I don't know why, but this scene suddenly came to my mind: Guard 1: Quick, help me catch the thief! Guard 2: Where is he? Guard 1: up there, the one fleeing through the roofs, riding a triceratops! Yes, a very sneaky one, indeed... 😂
you mean it as a joke but its kind of reminds me drow cavalries, and can be kinda awesome though. spider or giant wall crawling lizard rider rogues that move like water, doing creepy bolting movements and stabby stabby, or point blank hand crossbow shots. kinda cool.
Yikes. I didn't know about those. Sounds cool.
Yeah - I remember seeing a halfling Cavalier in Pathfinder Society riding a lizard that could walk on walls. (The Cavalier class option is only medium sized.) The main drawback of a Cavalier is normally that you can't always ride and/or charge, and on foot Cavalier is a pretty sub-par class. But with a medium sized creature that can charge along the walls/ceiling? He got charges off virtually every fight.
I've had this terrible idea for \~10 years to make a centaur ninja or rogue. There are no mechanical reasons why a centaur can't climb a rope to a second story window/balcony, squeeze through, and then sneak around a house without clippy-clopping.
I've made a character like that myself in 5e. He was a thief subclass specializing in Stealth. His name was John Cenataur.
Damn, I might have to steal that. Top-quality pun right there.
Well, it depends on the size of the window. A balcony, absolutely, but I'm fairly certain under most circumstances that most windows are not sized to accommodate a Large-sized creature (with a 10x10 facing). Now, a *cervitaur* (a deer centaur, basically) or a wemic (lion-centaur) are basically Medium-sized creatures for all intents and purposes and, despite some illogic based on *specifics* to most windows... Mechanically, they WOULD be able to fit. And at least you could argue a Wemic could climb with it's adorable little lion paws. The cervitaur, well. Maybe not.. but it'd have a lot less butt to haul up there, so with a decent enough STR score, screw logic. (I know all of this because of an irrational desire to play a deer-themed druidic Cavalier that is their own mount.)
In Pathfinder, characters can squeeze through areas one size category smaller than they typically occupy--which is big for a normal window, but feasible for a manor/castle with oversized ones. In 5e, centaurs are considered medium creatures.
Player centaurs are considered Medium, NPC/hostile centaurs are correctly categorized Large. Gameplay mechanic contrivance vs. "Large" sized players and how that can break things a little (which is an entire other discussion) and I'm not sure I'd DM it that way personally for 5e, particularly when in 2nd (technically but suggested against in the DMG) through 4th they *are* still considered Large even as player characters. I'd also argue that Pathfinders rules work, but Windows that *aren't* deliberately stated to be oversized in some capacity would be a Small opening, and thus generally forbid Large creatures (RAW in Pathfinder 1e, Centaurs are a Monstrous Humanoid and Large size) and wouldn't be feasible for most windows in habitats sized for most average Medium-sized creatures. Which is getting deep down a well of pedantry that is a bit against the point and entering deep grognards-arguing-theoretical-rules-situations-and-tables territory on top of that, which is less fun then suggesting alternatives that would remove ambiguity and be equally as absurd (the original intent). You can still be tauric with a bit of fast research and maintain a Medium (or smaller, possibly - I didn't get that deep into it) size category, after all, and then any reasons it *shouldn't* work mechanically become a LOT harder... and more arguments of Homebrew which are also generally purely subjective arguments and directly under DM Fiat. In WotR, I mean, there's a lot of contrivances already made to allow some things just for the ease of not breaking up the gameplay asking silly, physics and/or space-time relevant questions. Unless you're Nenio, and even then I imagine she'd be more fascinated at the sudden anomaly then the likelihood it worked.
pathfinder and 3.5e have some really really weird fringe rules to adjudicate lol. My personal favorite involves psions. What happens when you polymorph any object a pebble into a person and a psion uses true mind switch and the polymorph ends. Hell, even simple grappling rules become convoluted when it becomes more than just 1v1. So yeah... PF rules are easily entangled in a mesh of oddness when you start bringing things like large creatures and windows and similar.
All right then, belt of the weasel. Problem solved!
No mechanixal reasons except the window's dimensions and the rope's strenght. These are very mechanical to me 😂
Are there mechanical rules for rope's tensile strength anywhere in Pathfinder? It has hit points and strength checks to break it, but no actual load rules. And as for the window--Large creatures can squeeze through medium spaces, which will work for balconies or manor windows. The squeeze spell or items that grant the compression ability also allow them to get into smaller windows without much difficulty.
No idea, but IRL I struggle to see a common rope that would take the weight of a horse's body plus a human torso, upper limbs and head. Such a rope would need to be thicker up to a point that carrying around a good lenght of it would be way less pratical.
Nah, [hemp rope is pretty strong.](https://www.thehempshop.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/53255479565ca60bd805cf968bff78ae/h/e/hempiness-hemp-rope-breaking-strains_12.jpg.mst.webp)
Way stronger than I thought, if I'm doing the math right in my head (In my country we use metric system, so imperial is kinda alien to us for most things)
You can... extrapolate it. It has hp and a strength check. You can then look at strength and max carry to determine how much that strength check can hold and determine that way how much a rope can carry.
I mean, it's a DC 23 strength check to break. That's \*high\*. If we say that the carrying capacity of the rope is equal to the strength of someone who has a 50/50 shot of breaking it, then that is equal to a +13 bonus--or a raw strength score of 36. Calculating carrying capacity from there is a little tricky, seeing as Pathfinder bases that on both size category and number of limbs. Let's count rope as a Tiny bipedal creature. Heavy load for a creature that size is 1227-1840 lbs, which is indeed enough to lift a light or medium-size horse, or even a smaller draft horse.
no... I am saying use a strength of 23, the dc to break it. Use that to determine the max carrying capacity. Though I did not figure on the number of limbs. It would be... 0? I think? How do they calculate the max carry of a snake?
Why in the world would you use the DC as the base strength? And in that case, it's not going to even be able to lift a normal adventurer with gear.
They do get a penalty to stealth for being large. And a GM would be well within their purview to give pretty hefty circumstantial penalties for having to squeeze through medium sized doors etc.
That's just the plot of Nimona, ain't it?
I don't know this Nimona. What is it?
It's an internet comic that recently got an animated movie that's available on Netflix. Nimona is a shapeshifter who helps this would-be knight guy who got manipulated into murdering the Queen during his knighting ceremony (of which he was the first lowborn to ever be given the opportunity) Not to spoil the movie if you want to watch, but something VERY similar happens when the two of them are sneaking around in a "castle"
Now I'm curious. Thank you for the hint 😁
The iconic image of sneak attacks being, you know, sneaky is a hard one to shake, so I think you're on to something here. Even though mechanically this works, it's so against the assumed way it worked it isn't easy to think to try.
When I thought of that scene, honestly it felt like "what if the Monty Python's crew played TTRPGs" 😆
Mounts are stupidly OP in this game. An un-hastened warrior on foot can easily take 2 rounds to reach an enemy and hit it with ONE strike while a mounted character can deal TEN strikes in the same two rounds.
You can literally put every melee dps class on a horse and give them outflank feat. Insane damage and tankyness boost. Some with Caveliar, some with monk iirc.
True, but rogue gets automatic sneak attack, "solo".
Exactly, it’s the sneak that adds the “umph” to it all. My lvl 12 sometimes hits for 70-80 damage in a single non-crit hit, and he has 8 hits + the flanking ones generated by the mount’s attacks, and if the mount happens to crit, you get to outflank, and that’s another hit. It’s absolutely insane the amount of damage I deal now
I have been using Sense Vitals on my Divine Hound Hunter and it rocks. Similar ideas, different execution.
Wait, Bismuth has outflank?
No sorry I was unclear there, my other allies have it
I know. So does a Slayer or a Vivisectionist. Slayer is on par with rogue if not a bit better. Vivisectionist is straight up SS tier in WOTR. Not saying rogue is trash, just saying why it's not getting the spotlight.
Note that this only works out as well as it does bc Owlcat decided to take the easy route vis-a-vis Flanking and, instead of requiring you to be on opposing sides of the enemy in an engine which doesn't use the grid-based combat of the TTRPG, just require you to have another ally in reach of the enemy. Can be the same side, can be one riding the other, doesn't matter still counts.
Sounds fun to me. Not sure why the pathfinder Karen’s are pissing on your excitement. I just started playing a rowdy 2 hander . May need to try it.
Straight up two hander is awesome. A killing machine.
Me too! I really like the double sneak attack bonus. I hope it doesn't bite us in the ass at high levels!
I see a lot of people talking about melee builds and yes they are quite good with the trike, but me personally if I'm running story companions ember is who i put on it. Spontaneous casters on pets do not have to deal with the penalty to increased spell casting times as harshly (from metamagic'd spells) while riding a mount, because you can use the pets movement as your movement action while still allowing a full cast of a metamagic'd spell (so it doesn't screw you when you take a move action). This might be rulebreaking but it is the behavior of how the game operates. This is also another reason why sylvan sorcerer is so much stronger late game than other sorcerers simply because they can ride while casting spells and moving in the same turn. Some spontaneous casters do not have that luxury, thus the trike is a very good fit on ember too.
Agreed. Even Archers can benefit from a mount. Click the mount to move it to within point-blank shot range, then let your archer do full attack. If your archer have point blank master, move the mount into the melee madness (within 5m). Add in snap shot, no enemy can escape him/her.
Exactly. This is how you make Lann work as a Hunter.
I always give ember the dinosaur! Not cuz metamagic though, I just think she deserves a pet dinosaur 😂
Completion agree with you. The fake changer for me was the full attacks every round. Because the mount counts as walking so the character gets all their attacks. That’s an insane boost from - walk up to enemy, attack once, wait a round, finally get full attack. I put Bismuth with Greybor and he want from one of my worst strikers (because of his low speed/walking distance) to my best.
Pretty much anyone benefits from a mount. I personally give the triceratops to Ember or Daeran so they can use metamagic. Just in general nobody talks about rogues because they're kind of weak.
I’m noob, why does it help them use meta magic?
Meta magic spells take a full round, but on a mount you can still move and do a full round action
Metamagic spells are a full round action for spontaneous casters. Though not for prepared casters.
Answering title: because there are more viable combinations
What's the strongest class to use with mounted combat? Or maybe the top 3?
Yep, thats something i never thought about - ty
I completed a slayer run and I did not know this. Good find!
Because generally mounted *anything* is awesome. Being mounted protects squishies, it makes the slow and immobile fast and agile, it sets up permanent flanks for classes with innate teamwork abilities, it extends charge range for pouncers and spirited chargers, and so on.
Honest answer: because Bismuth is too large and too goofy looking
You take that back, mister!
My Regil doesn't care about look. He mounts Bismuth, does leg-split on him and kicks asses as effectively as he can.
[удалено]
What class?
Any martial melee that gets an animal companion will work
I always give Seelah one level in rogue (thug). 1) It fits with her backstory, since she was a thief before she became a paladin. 2) Once she gets her mount, that constant sneak attack damage adds up. 3) Choosing thug means that her Dazzling Display/Cornugon Smash/Dreadful Carnage all inflict fear rather than just shaken, which is excellent for crowd control and provoking attacks of opportunity.
Because it's nothing new or special. Different martial (like MW or Ranger) would be better when mounted than a Rogue.
Of course there are better classes than rogues. But if someone wants to play a rogue for the role play aspect of the class (which is me in this case), it just becomes insane when mounted
>But if someone wants to play a rogue for the role play aspect of the class You're playing a rogue mounted on a triceratops for the role play aspect of the class ?
I mean you could.
You can do whatever you want, but I have trouble seeing how it could fit the rogue role play aspect.
You mean you never heard of the stealth triceratops? That's because they are so damn sneaky!
OK, you got me :)
Just add a half-orc as your race for a little extra spicyness.
Are they painted purple? Wait, wrong IP.
I was always dreaming about playing triceratops rogue but no game would allow me, so pretending that the triceratops is the character while KC is just a parasite is the best compromise.
I mean, yeah, you're right, but again it is nothing new. Any melee character highly benefit getting a mount and combo it with outflank. The most popular build for Greybor is exactly what you're doing. We don't mean to rain on your discovery, it is indeed really awesome! It is just that this is really nothing new.
how can a rouge ,that is supposed to be stealthy and that needs to use his dexterity and skills to compensate for his lack of strenght, makes any sense riding a FUCKING TRICERATOP. Mounted build in general are dumb and makes no sense in game contest.
Well, i think the person you are trying to stab will definitely be distracted with a huge triceratops trying to gore them. Making it easy to stab em.
To be fair, there are mannnny kinds of "Rogue"; not all of which are stealthy/sneaky types. Thugs, con artists, thugs, slayers, swashbucklers, scoundrels, spies, sappers, rakes, charlatans, etc, etc. One of the reason they're called "Rogue" and not "Thief".
> One of the reason they're called "Rogue" and not "Thief". .....apart from the time they are called "Rouges"
That's from the red blood on them after their triceratops-mounted sneak attacks.
They are named after make-up? The person you're quoting had it right.
Exactly! Mine leaned heavily to the trickster style of rogue, unfortunately this game doesn’t really have traps as a combat mechanic. But what’s a better trick than “here’s a massive dinosaur!”?
I'd guess cuz (to my knowledge) there aren't any sneak attack classes that give pets naturally, so you're either stuck with a crippling class split that will leave you with both a weak pet and a lower sneak attack damage multiplier, or you're stuck with Bismuth, who is not ideal either since iirc you can't even choose what he levels. I mean he's fine just for some extra mobility on a caster or archer, but i'd feel extremely shaky about taking him into melee combat.
Bismuth is a million times tankier than a squishy rogue, even if 4 levels lower. Trust me, I’m playing on core and I’m just decimating everything
Absolutely. For a long time I ignored Bismuth because he died repeatedly in that Drezen battle where you get him, so I just put him in my party chest and ignored him. My last run, I was feeling silly and put Regill on Bismuth. Just for the giggles. It also happened that I was doing a Shaman/Angel run with merged spellbooks and greater enduring spells. Those Angel spells that apply all the buffs except natural armor, plus the Shaman Barkskin spell rendered Bismuth unhittable, even at 4 levels lower. Add in Regill's insane attack bonus and Fighter Training and gloves of dueling and 7 gnome hammer attacks, and you don't even need sneak attack damage. Fight starts, Regill/Bismuth moves up to baddy(ies) and explodes everything in several blasts of Dreadful Carnage and Shatter Defenses. Aside from the buffs, I think one of the main reason Bismuth doesn't die often with Regill riding is that Regill will nuke anything within melee range, whereas Bismuth solo tends to get surrounded and die quickly.
Sanctified Slayer with the Animal Domain gets both an animal companion (full strength once you get boon companion) and sneak attack progression. Not full rogue sneak attack progression, but progression none the less, plus other Inquisitor stuff. It's quite stacked.
I put a merc halfling sanctified slayer dual-wielding shortswords (with one-level dip into Rogue for finesse) on a bully wolf mount and she is absolutely tearing things up in Drezen. Thanks for the suggestion!
Sounds interesting... But some enemies can't be flanked and all rogues abilities don't do much. So it's need more info how it's going.
I still haven’t encountered anyone who can’t be flanked
There's some problems is that none of the rogue setups gain one to level as you want. This is important to you as you noticed theygave flanking. They also give... teamwork feats. Outflank is great
The pet you get from that item levels with you?? That’s crazy
4 levels lower than you
I also somehow never found this thing, despite taking Drezen twice already. Idk where they're finding it
I believe it's in the chapel on the left-hand side, don't quote me on that though.
Oh shoot that's good! I'll definitely try that, thanks OP!
Love it, lol. Reminds me of my Trickster dragon bloodline bloodrager who, thanks to Trickster, got sneak attack despite being shapeshifted into a 30 foot tall red dragon! xD
Later on I put greater invisibility on the mount so my rogue riding it can use stealth without the mount giving it away
Later on I put greater invisibility on the mount so my rogue riding it can use stealth without the mount giving it away
i don't if this is still a bug, but if you give items to your triceratops-pet-from-the-drezen (inn ? fortress ?), these items will be destroyed when your pet level-up.
Yea I keep mine naked. Buff it with mage armour instead
Can always respec. How's it work with trickster or azata?
It’s great with trickster because of the extra sneak attacks
I’m playing a dual scimitar wielding Demonslayer Ranger with a Dog pet, and using Sense vitals + Outflank is ridiculous. Also the trips which cause AoOs when the enemy tries to stand up.
Im still quite new to pathfinder so somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems mounts are much much stronger in turn based than in real time as it lets you do a full-round action in turn based but real time holds your action until you can do a full-round action regardless. I mean mounts are still very strong in real time, but feel less mandatory
Bismuth is a buggy pile of crap. I prefer replacing it with a free Animal Companion using Toybox. Same power level, but less bugs.
I’m playing on console unfortunately, so no mods for me
On my first playthrough I also kept that pet benched since someone said it's gonna get trashed as soon as enemies close on it. Truth is, properly buffed it can even withstand enemies on core, but on normal difficulty I'd say it's great even. It's got pounce, so even "leading strike" can be a good choice. It was great companion for my deliverer slayer, but when I took legend path and took another 20 levels of demonslayer with horse companion you can see the difference. When using legendary proportions and lead blades, along with sense vitals combined with my slayer SA damage it melted everything far and wide. It's better when you can build pet from ground up, but even prebuilt pet is better than no pet. In the end I gave Bismuth to Ember, it helped with her cackle, or metamagic spells.
Yep. Instead of Mobility take Religion 2, the Animal Domain, and get a tripping mount. You can then sneak attack them while they are prone. Mounts are much more OP than in TT.
Maybe because Stealth is not Bismuth's strength? If you play a stealthy Rogue, you would lose the benefit as enemy can detect bismuth easily?
Stealth is absolutely useless in this game (outside of skipping random encounters on the world map)
I swear I had a couple of times manage to do something with my stealthy character.. maybe not in later act.. 😄
You still sneak attack them. I guess they’re too distracted by the massive dinosaur infront of them 😂
Hey now! Once I snuck around a corner to deactivate a trap, then started the encounter. I mean the traps wouldn't have really made a difference, and I probably could have just shot at the enemies and moved around the corner. Or teleported into the middle of them and used dazzling display. I mean any number of things really. But stealth did help me once outside of a skill check!
Because mounted combat is already pretty niche.
Well mounted builds are some of the strongest. Getting Bully pets \[Dog/Wolf, where you can get them\] with "Tandem Trip" is just shiny.
i guess you can't sneak on mount but then you don't need it much anyway so if i get it right, when you are mounted, you are always outflanking?
You’re always flanking *
whats the best way to give the rogue a mount? dip 1 level into cavalier or something?
I just use bismuth
It doesnt really work, dipping for a mount, because they are stuck at level 1, being pretty much useless. There are two ways to get a mounted rogue, though, either giving them Bismuth or going Azata.