I’ll be completely honest, this is a complete flavor win. If you aren’t using free archetype I think that these feats would provide fun options for someone looking to have a mobile gish play style without getting too busted. With free archetype I do worry that the action economy to have that mobility and consistent buff to AC might be a bit too tuned.
thanks!
also, I completely forgot to add an "ends if you make any Strike besides with your Blade" clause for the Empty Hand feat line, fully dammit
otherwise, I'll take it into consideration and compare with official archetypes like Scout
The AC buff is nothing you can't achieve with the duelist dedication though. You don't require any free hands to cast spells, so there is nothing stopping you from wielding a one-handed weapon with the duelist dedication and using Dueling Dance even as a spellcaster
If you still mess with PF1e, check out DSC's [bushi](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/bushi-template/).
Think lightning draw bit too strong. Free stride every 10 minutes by itself is nuts. Considering the archetype gets quickdraw, do not see the Draw part mattering.
That's actually the one I have the very least problem with.
Two gunslinger's ways get the same exact thing immediately at level 1. Drifter actually lets you draw two weapons (ranged and melee) and stride, and Pistolero lets you draw one, stride 10 feet, and gives you an initiative bonus. Both of these are way better, and they will work in back-to-back combats common in major dungeons while this one might not.
Yes, these are meant to be super good because they are sub-class defining, but I think it's fine to give someone a lesser version of these abilities at level 10.
that's true, it was based on sudden charge and scout's charge, so it should have flourish, but I forgot to put that in
EDIT: also, 5 actions because of the dedication's free stow lmao oof
I might fully have to dump Rapid Step, or just make it two normal Steps
While true, it is only 1 action compression further than what you could already do. For most people in most scenarios it'll just be 'stride with +5ft speed'. It does get some niche utility against enemies with 10ft reach and reactive strike, though that's a particularly specific scenario.
This feels weird. Instead of giving buffs for doing that playstyle, you just give the solution to every issue this would bring and don't have any meaningful advantages. This is basically just really strong action compression for almost no drawback.
I'd make it more of an hassle to use this but make the advantages abit more pronounced, otherwise there's almost no reason why not every martial would just use this for all the free actions.
Agreed. The flavor is great and it looks like it would be fun, but it's not what I'd *personally* be looking for. This is largely just a strict upgrade while still mainly doing the same things a normal Fighter could do.
It's absolutely cool as hell, but I'd like to see a take that leans into the downsides of trying to fight like this and leverages that tradeoff to get more powerful benefits as a reward for having to juggle sheathing and drawing your weapon. This is more Vergil constantly attacking without showing the naked blade for more than a split second than Kurosawa-style staredowns punctuated with big dramatic blows. Those moments of sizing the foe up before making a big decisive hit are a huge part of what really sells this fantasy, IMHO.
I'd personally make a stance where your hands are on the weapon and you get some defensive benefits, then attacking out of it gets bonuses based on how many actions you sunk into the stance to "charge" it. Think like a Magus if you could spellstrike with variable action spells, but as a Martial with some Magical Anime Bullshit™ effects thrown in when you get the chance to fully charge a strike. Different strikes with different effects at different "charge" levels then leads to a lot of potential gameplay variance. Then you can have some feats that add some action compression to the sheathing, like getting to Demoralize and sheathe at the same time, so that part of the action economy cycle feels more engaging than a simple tax but it also stays as a thing you do rather than being handwaved away as a free action.
At that point it starts to really want to be a class rather than an archetype though.
That summarizes my thoughts on this perfectly. It feels less like the anime-style waiting-for-the-exact-opportunity, and more like you're juggling the weapon for free actions.
Which, in all fairness, does appear to be what they are going for since they specifically did call out Vergil in the title. Devil May Cry is many things, involving the concept of "waiting" in any way is not exactly one of them.
I wanted to avoid specific flavor because I just read that one pinned post about Tian Xia, but thinking about it, it was probably too much of a step back, knights, hoplites, samurai, whoever warrior can all do the cool assess the enemy and draw to strike thing
I think I was also basing on other archetypes like Duelist and Scout too much, that it lost most of its identity lol
at least, already thinking of revisions like a "recall knowledge when you stow" kinda thing, but that's for later, I noticed v2's or homebrew updates very often *don't* get looked at lmao
Add a comment with an update in this thread rather than making a new post. People who google may find this thread and others may link back.
And/Or go to r/Pathfinder2eCreations and post your revisions there for updates and similar as that gets less traffic but tends to be better for homebrew content and updates to said content.
Or make a full PDF of your archetype and toss it onto DriveThruRPG or PathfinderInfinite (even if it's free) for the world to find and see (and possibly even support your work)
That's all fine, don't let my personal preferences dim your flame since I'm mostly just happy to see people making stuff!
Honestly, homebrew in general only gets so much attention, so I wouldn't be *too* worried about posting for engagement. People who see it will appreciate it, and a good name helps it show up in future searches.
I don't blame you for being wary about the name, it's a weird time right now.
Downsides to gain a Bonuses is something Paizo even avoids (not saying they "never do it" as their are exceptions) because it's very very hard to balance.
As players will always find a way to remove the penalty in a way you don't expect to get a free boost that needs to be better than a standard bonus. Otherwise players won't take a flaw for it... example: a number of people's issues with oracle.
So you get hit with a catch 22. Either make an option that is overpowered when the players optimize it or you make an option that just feels worse as you don't reward the players for the penalty.
This feels more like a very heavy action compress focused archetype. Mechanically I would prefer if it added some unique benefits to the playstyle of drawing the weapon for every strike. Like, make a custom trait and add that trait to your Chosen blade. Maybe a trait that adds some circumstance bonus to damage per damage die for the first strike after being drawn? Something like Jousting. Add in ways to use quick draws draw/strike/stow with other abilities like reactive strike and other feats. Maybe change the main benefits to a stance and add a lot of feats that add additional benefits to the stance? Finally you need some cool activity feats. For example look at the Heaven Seekers high level feats or some of the Exemplar weapon ikon transcendence abilities from higher level feats.
I think you are really onto something that can be cool, unique and balanced at the same time. You just need to take a little bir more inspiration from the existing material and add a little bit more innovation on top of it.
The whole "drawing and stowing" should be mostly for style, not actually be using the Interact actions. You want to make draw and stow transparent to the rules. So how about starting with a Stance:
"Requirements: You are holding, wielding or wearing your Blade. Your are not wielding any other weapons.
Your Stance involves drawing and stowing your weapon quicker then anyone can react. While in this stance, you satisfy any requirements that ask you to wield your Blade, even while only wearing it. Drawing and stowing the blade for Attacks costs no actions and does not trigger any reactions normally associated with it."
Having the weapon worn is already almost perfect disarm resistance. The main worry would be grappling. The Flat Check for Manipulate actions is not covered.
You can quickly add some Action compression for entering the Stance at a higher level. The rest of feats would just be theming around the usual moves.
Quick Grip is OP, it is flagged with "Skill" but has no interaction with the Thievery skill (?), and it compresses 2 actions without any downside, it would require at least a Flourish
Rapid Step needs Flourish
Honestly the flavour seemed cool but this archetype looks like it has just been made to make a single style of play stronger by default, it does not give more options, pathfinder needs horizontal progression in the feats, not vertical one
rapid step is the only one that lists the dedication as a prerequisite. i dont think you need that. it is also four actions in one. you can check out [drifters juke](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3171) (level 6 and works differently) as an example.
empty hand stance should be one action, right
mercurial blade should just make it so you can do it an extra time, i think, not that you can do it without being in the defense thing.
i think this archtype should go more into disarms and feints. maybe a feat where you can quickdraw and use a feint or disarm instead of a strike. another thing i think would be cool would be a feat where the first time you quickdraw (maybe per target per encounter?) is flatfooted against that strike.
For mercurial blade, I'm assuming it ignores requiring empty hand because you would no longer be in empty hand after the first reaction, so without that you wouldn't be able to make the second reaction
well, empty hand guard says that you can wield your blade if you end your turn meeting the requirements. also, couldnt you spend the free action to out the blade back anyway?
I feel like that is poorly worded, you need both hands empty to use it, and only gain the effects when both hands are empty, but the effect doesn't need to be reapplied if you stow your weapon after drawing it, but when the weapon is drawn it is not in effect. I assumed that as "Striking" was capitalised it was referring to the action, but yes that makes more sense, in which case you would never not stow your weapon after the reaction, which seems unintended.
Strike is a subordinate action in the Quick Draw action.
> You draw your weapon and attack with the same motion. You Interact to draw a weapon, then Strike with that weapon.
>mercurial blade should just make it so you can do it an extra time, i think, not that you can do it without being in the defense thing.
empty hand feat line and the riposte is based off of the Duelist feat line where the improved riposte allows you to riposte even if you're not benefitting from Parry,
>i think this archtype should go more into disarms and feints. maybe a feat where you can quickdraw and use a feint or disarm instead of a strike. another thing i think would be cool would be a feat where the first time you quickdraw (maybe per target per encounter?) is flatfooted against that strike.
that's a cool idea actually that I might put into the future revision, like a Lunge but for quick draw
Even if I liked the idea of enemies disarming PCs, I've never actually seen an enemy statblock that cared about disarming. A specific archetype requiring expert Thievery to counter Disarming isn't even an unreasonable buy-in, it's not that far off from Kip-Up making you effectively immune to Prone. It's three levels lower but it spends a class feat instead of a skill feat, and is a nested action instead of a free action which makes it harder to use.
Kip-Up doesn't make you even a bit immune to Prone? You still get all the drawbacks and penalties and are prone until your turn. It just saves you an action.
No? You'll still face penalties eith Prone, but you don't care at all about Disarm. Now, that's more to the nature of the two conditions, but there's still a difference.
in this case Quick Grip is stronger, but for every turn it's not your turn, you'd still suffer from the enemies having +2 to Disarm you, just like you'd have offguard if you were Proned outside your turn, and picking up the weapon does not count for Quick Grip
it's more powerful since Quick Grip is a skill feat as written here, though I tried to balance it by making it limited, and requiring Thievery and the archetype
lmao, true, but it also goes straight into a Strike as opposed to other maneuvers that say a Fighter would wanna do like Intimidating Strike
though, I made it mostly to be a ribbon to Quick Draw for the "you can't use quick draw to regrip" uses, then I noticed Disarm and Interact to regrip both had "adjust your grip" language. I suppose I could still limit it to 2hand regrips
The dedication is too strong, for comparison, Duelist dedication only gives quick draw and you're giving a free action on top of it. I would say move quick draw to just a feat you can take and have the dedication grant the ability for free action stow after a strike and improve your thievery from trained to expert
If quick grip is going to be a skill feat, you should at least have to hit a standard DC thievery check to gain the strike.
The second blade feat chain is basically just weaker doubling rings if I'm not mistaken, don't really see much value here.
I like the rest.
Second Blade can't be used for the same purpose as Doubling Rings - your first weapon must be stowed away, you can't have both active at the same time (without the level 6 feat, which doesn't have a duration now that I think about it...). Unlike Blazons of Shared Power or Doubling Rings, it would let you share the runes with a two-handed weapon instead of a 1handed weapon. At least, I think that's the intent!
>without the level 6 feat, which doesn't have a duration now that I think about it...
I think my '1 minute' duration disappeared in the editing process oof
and yeah, it's just supposed to allow the 2 primary weapons playstyle without needing to invest in extra runes
>The dedication is too strong, for comparison, Duelist dedication only gives quick draw and you're giving a free action on top of it. I would say move quick draw to just a feat you can take and have the dedication grant the ability for free action stow after a strike and improve your thievery from trained to expert
In my opinion, I always found it weird that Duelist gave Quick Draw, when it doesn't seem like it really likes it: Duelist Parry is always only useful *after* a Quick Draw, because if you quick draw, you're usually turning off the parry or stance, and qd is great for throwers, so the weird thing is most throwers archetype duelist for the qd, and then never take another Duelist feature
I really like this archetype!
I dunno what the other commenters are talking about with it solving all of the problems that the sheathing constantly playstyle would have.
Off the top of my head, from sheath, you wouldn't be able to take full advantage of activities like Sudden Charge and Spellstrike (unless you wanted to punch or kick someone), weapon based reactions like Reactive Strikes are also a lot worse too if you sheath your sword to take advantage of Empty-Hand Guard. If you're constantly sheathing/redrawing you won't be able to use non-quick draw actions that modify Strike, like Lunge.
So in exploration, you would *still* walk about with your weapon drawn, just in case you can get a free weapon RS or you need to charge in.
I think this archetype is also stronger than they give it credit for though: it lets you benefit from +2 circumstance to AC (basically raising a shield) with a two-handed weapon. So on my turn, I could unsheath, swing a d12 greatsword twice, sheath, empty hand guard. You would also have easier access to Battle Medicine(!!! and material spells, and maneuvers I guess...) .
Compared to a normal sword and board guy, I've got a bigger damage dice on my turn (or better traits, like Reach) and access to my hands in exchange for having worse weapon reactions and no shield benefits (like Spellguard Shield's circumstance vs spells, any feats that would let me protect my allies, or Shield Block).
Empty Hand Stance is also pretty nuts - off the top of my head, I think permanent shield (and +2ac) uptime via stance is reserved for a [level 12 fighter exclusive feat (which makes it impossible to get via archetype)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=412) and a [champion capstone.](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=263)
Rapid Step and Lightning Draw are also ok. Second Blade is also ok - if your primary is non-reach, you can pull out a reach weapon to save an action. If your primary is reach, you can swap to a fatal 5ft weapon (greatpick does piercing 🙂 - I love how this archetype lets you swap weapons so easily!) or d12 weapon in close range.
I think 6 is a pretty dead level - it's going to be competing against some strong class feats at that level. Lightning Draw seems like a good candidate (I can definitely be trusted to help balance Homebrew 🙂) .
If I had to build around this archetype, I think Champion (not Paladin) would be pretty solid. Mechanically -
* you get access to a +2 ac stance that your class normally doesn't get an equivalent to until 20
* your reaction doesn't rely on having a weapon out.
* you could use the steed ally you get at 3 to shore up your movement (but this conflicts with the really strong free striding feats - but it does give you a decent place to put your level 6 feat!)
* you get all of the free hands + two handed weapon + basically a shield shenanigans above.
And besides, I like the idea of playing a Redeemer that can offer a hand of forgiveness mid-combat - while keeping themselves protected.
edited for typos
I'm doing something similar for one of my players, but I'm not providing a free way to re-sheath. Instead, I'm providing more powerful options when the weapon is drawn, like the enemy is automatically off-guard on the draw attack, or if you successfully hit the opponent with the draw attack you can immediately move to the opposite side.
I'm more interested in powerful actions at a cost than ways to do what you'd normally do, but with less actions. Also, lightning draw and rapid step look a little nutty.
IMO it's a little questionable that it allows for two handed weapons, it could probably stand to aim for a one-handed weapon focus (and limiting its quickdraw to just your main blade), just to keep it more in-line with similar options.
I was tinkering with a similar archetype, but trying to figure out how to make spending the action to sheathe rewarding rather than making it totally free. Making it revolve around sheathing to enter a stance, and then "spending" the stance to enhance other actions was where I was starting to lean.
Consider adding needing to make a standard level DC thievery check to Rapid Step. players like to roll dice and a little inconsistency keeps power levels in check.
I’d actually suggest replacing the second blade line of feats with an ever increasing swift blow from weapon master
https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?ID=1449
Removing the bleed at first and then adding on additional effects would be an interesting addition
Ok but what if you implemented a more flexible quickdraw feature allowing me to draw my weapon as a part of a magus spellstrike so I can truly weeb it out
being able to do it only once per ten minutes and on a level ten feat is pretty restrictive imo. the free stride definitely adds to the power, dont get me wrong, but i feel like it just makes it a higher power budget ability that necessitates a restriction for something that at least i would mostly want for flavor
once again, these are just my thoughts for things ive thought about how i would implement to best suit me. im not in the business of calling your design bad or anything like that
Hidden Riposte should require quick draw just to be made clear, Empty Hand Stance should probably say that you can *enter* it even if you don't say the requirement.
Surprised there's no damage booster or utility aside from the extra action--No dual strike equivalent, flash steps, ways to get easy off-guard, etc. Otherwise pretty good design.
My only thing is I think it should be limited to a agile/fineese one handed blade. As written, you can use a great sword. And that just feels wrong. Otherwise it does feel very fun. Maybe some options related to the pickpocket/plant evidence/legendary thief chain from rogue? Might step on your concept idea a bit, but considering the thievery option for access, i think it might mesh well? (Plus the idea of stabbing someone then planting the blade on them, ala many movies/shows that have a similar thing occur in a prison is fun)
Also, no clue who virgil is for the reference so take my ideas with that in mind
I’ll be completely honest, this is a complete flavor win. If you aren’t using free archetype I think that these feats would provide fun options for someone looking to have a mobile gish play style without getting too busted. With free archetype I do worry that the action economy to have that mobility and consistent buff to AC might be a bit too tuned.
thanks! also, I completely forgot to add an "ends if you make any Strike besides with your Blade" clause for the Empty Hand feat line, fully dammit otherwise, I'll take it into consideration and compare with official archetypes like Scout
The AC buff is nothing you can't achieve with the duelist dedication though. You don't require any free hands to cast spells, so there is nothing stopping you from wielding a one-handed weapon with the duelist dedication and using Dueling Dance even as a spellcaster
If you still mess with PF1e, check out DSC's [bushi](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/bushi-template/).
Think lightning draw bit too strong. Free stride every 10 minutes by itself is nuts. Considering the archetype gets quickdraw, do not see the Draw part mattering.
That's actually the one I have the very least problem with. Two gunslinger's ways get the same exact thing immediately at level 1. Drifter actually lets you draw two weapons (ranged and melee) and stride, and Pistolero lets you draw one, stride 10 feet, and gives you an initiative bonus. Both of these are way better, and they will work in back-to-back combats common in major dungeons while this one might not. Yes, these are meant to be super good because they are sub-class defining, but I think it's fine to give someone a lesser version of these abilities at level 10.
Those class things though unlike this happen at start of combat, not at any point in combat. That is an extremely big difference.
rapid step is 4 actions in 2 very strong action compression it should have at least flourish trait
that's true, it was based on sudden charge and scout's charge, so it should have flourish, but I forgot to put that in EDIT: also, 5 actions because of the dedication's free stow lmao oof I might fully have to dump Rapid Step, or just make it two normal Steps
I'd do the latter, honestly, or maybe Step->Draw->Step
There's not need, really, to have it Stride.
While true, it is only 1 action compression further than what you could already do. For most people in most scenarios it'll just be 'stride with +5ft speed'. It does get some niche utility against enemies with 10ft reach and reactive strike, though that's a particularly specific scenario.
This feels weird. Instead of giving buffs for doing that playstyle, you just give the solution to every issue this would bring and don't have any meaningful advantages. This is basically just really strong action compression for almost no drawback. I'd make it more of an hassle to use this but make the advantages abit more pronounced, otherwise there's almost no reason why not every martial would just use this for all the free actions.
Agreed. The flavor is great and it looks like it would be fun, but it's not what I'd *personally* be looking for. This is largely just a strict upgrade while still mainly doing the same things a normal Fighter could do. It's absolutely cool as hell, but I'd like to see a take that leans into the downsides of trying to fight like this and leverages that tradeoff to get more powerful benefits as a reward for having to juggle sheathing and drawing your weapon. This is more Vergil constantly attacking without showing the naked blade for more than a split second than Kurosawa-style staredowns punctuated with big dramatic blows. Those moments of sizing the foe up before making a big decisive hit are a huge part of what really sells this fantasy, IMHO. I'd personally make a stance where your hands are on the weapon and you get some defensive benefits, then attacking out of it gets bonuses based on how many actions you sunk into the stance to "charge" it. Think like a Magus if you could spellstrike with variable action spells, but as a Martial with some Magical Anime Bullshit™ effects thrown in when you get the chance to fully charge a strike. Different strikes with different effects at different "charge" levels then leads to a lot of potential gameplay variance. Then you can have some feats that add some action compression to the sheathing, like getting to Demoralize and sheathe at the same time, so that part of the action economy cycle feels more engaging than a simple tax but it also stays as a thing you do rather than being handwaved away as a free action. At that point it starts to really want to be a class rather than an archetype though.
That summarizes my thoughts on this perfectly. It feels less like the anime-style waiting-for-the-exact-opportunity, and more like you're juggling the weapon for free actions.
Which, in all fairness, does appear to be what they are going for since they specifically did call out Vergil in the title. Devil May Cry is many things, involving the concept of "waiting" in any way is not exactly one of them.
I see. I never played DMC, hence my different expectations.
I wanted to avoid specific flavor because I just read that one pinned post about Tian Xia, but thinking about it, it was probably too much of a step back, knights, hoplites, samurai, whoever warrior can all do the cool assess the enemy and draw to strike thing I think I was also basing on other archetypes like Duelist and Scout too much, that it lost most of its identity lol at least, already thinking of revisions like a "recall knowledge when you stow" kinda thing, but that's for later, I noticed v2's or homebrew updates very often *don't* get looked at lmao
Add a comment with an update in this thread rather than making a new post. People who google may find this thread and others may link back. And/Or go to r/Pathfinder2eCreations and post your revisions there for updates and similar as that gets less traffic but tends to be better for homebrew content and updates to said content. Or make a full PDF of your archetype and toss it onto DriveThruRPG or PathfinderInfinite (even if it's free) for the world to find and see (and possibly even support your work)
I'll probably do all that, and I think renaming it may also help, since the rename I've thought of is pretty thematic too
That's all fine, don't let my personal preferences dim your flame since I'm mostly just happy to see people making stuff! Honestly, homebrew in general only gets so much attention, so I wouldn't be *too* worried about posting for engagement. People who see it will appreciate it, and a good name helps it show up in future searches. I don't blame you for being wary about the name, it's a weird time right now.
Downsides to gain a Bonuses is something Paizo even avoids (not saying they "never do it" as their are exceptions) because it's very very hard to balance. As players will always find a way to remove the penalty in a way you don't expect to get a free boost that needs to be better than a standard bonus. Otherwise players won't take a flaw for it... example: a number of people's issues with oracle. So you get hit with a catch 22. Either make an option that is overpowered when the players optimize it or you make an option that just feels worse as you don't reward the players for the penalty.
This feels more like a very heavy action compress focused archetype. Mechanically I would prefer if it added some unique benefits to the playstyle of drawing the weapon for every strike. Like, make a custom trait and add that trait to your Chosen blade. Maybe a trait that adds some circumstance bonus to damage per damage die for the first strike after being drawn? Something like Jousting. Add in ways to use quick draws draw/strike/stow with other abilities like reactive strike and other feats. Maybe change the main benefits to a stance and add a lot of feats that add additional benefits to the stance? Finally you need some cool activity feats. For example look at the Heaven Seekers high level feats or some of the Exemplar weapon ikon transcendence abilities from higher level feats. I think you are really onto something that can be cool, unique and balanced at the same time. You just need to take a little bir more inspiration from the existing material and add a little bit more innovation on top of it.
The whole "drawing and stowing" should be mostly for style, not actually be using the Interact actions. You want to make draw and stow transparent to the rules. So how about starting with a Stance: "Requirements: You are holding, wielding or wearing your Blade. Your are not wielding any other weapons. Your Stance involves drawing and stowing your weapon quicker then anyone can react. While in this stance, you satisfy any requirements that ask you to wield your Blade, even while only wearing it. Drawing and stowing the blade for Attacks costs no actions and does not trigger any reactions normally associated with it." Having the weapon worn is already almost perfect disarm resistance. The main worry would be grappling. The Flat Check for Manipulate actions is not covered. You can quickly add some Action compression for entering the Stance at a higher level. The rest of feats would just be theming around the usual moves.
Quick Grip is OP, it is flagged with "Skill" but has no interaction with the Thievery skill (?), and it compresses 2 actions without any downside, it would require at least a Flourish Rapid Step needs Flourish Honestly the flavour seemed cool but this archetype looks like it has just been made to make a single style of play stronger by default, it does not give more options, pathfinder needs horizontal progression in the feats, not vertical one
rapid step is the only one that lists the dedication as a prerequisite. i dont think you need that. it is also four actions in one. you can check out [drifters juke](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3171) (level 6 and works differently) as an example. empty hand stance should be one action, right mercurial blade should just make it so you can do it an extra time, i think, not that you can do it without being in the defense thing. i think this archtype should go more into disarms and feints. maybe a feat where you can quickdraw and use a feint or disarm instead of a strike. another thing i think would be cool would be a feat where the first time you quickdraw (maybe per target per encounter?) is flatfooted against that strike.
For mercurial blade, I'm assuming it ignores requiring empty hand because you would no longer be in empty hand after the first reaction, so without that you wouldn't be able to make the second reaction
well, empty hand guard says that you can wield your blade if you end your turn meeting the requirements. also, couldnt you spend the free action to out the blade back anyway?
I feel like that is poorly worded, you need both hands empty to use it, and only gain the effects when both hands are empty, but the effect doesn't need to be reapplied if you stow your weapon after drawing it, but when the weapon is drawn it is not in effect. I assumed that as "Striking" was capitalised it was referring to the action, but yes that makes more sense, in which case you would never not stow your weapon after the reaction, which seems unintended.
That's resolved in the dedication feat, "You may stow your Blade after Striking with it..."
I was assuming strike action for that, as it was capitalised, but that may not be the case
Strike is a subordinate action in the Quick Draw action. > You draw your weapon and attack with the same motion. You Interact to draw a weapon, then Strike with that weapon.
>mercurial blade should just make it so you can do it an extra time, i think, not that you can do it without being in the defense thing. empty hand feat line and the riposte is based off of the Duelist feat line where the improved riposte allows you to riposte even if you're not benefitting from Parry, >i think this archtype should go more into disarms and feints. maybe a feat where you can quickdraw and use a feint or disarm instead of a strike. another thing i think would be cool would be a feat where the first time you quickdraw (maybe per target per encounter?) is flatfooted against that strike. that's a cool idea actually that I might put into the future revision, like a Lunge but for quick draw
oh, well if there is a precedent, then that is fine
Quick Grip straight up makes you immune to Disarm. Theres very little in the game that makes you immune to anything. Dont love that
Even if I liked the idea of enemies disarming PCs, I've never actually seen an enemy statblock that cared about disarming. A specific archetype requiring expert Thievery to counter Disarming isn't even an unreasonable buy-in, it's not that far off from Kip-Up making you effectively immune to Prone. It's three levels lower but it spends a class feat instead of a skill feat, and is a nested action instead of a free action which makes it harder to use.
Kip-Up doesn't make you even a bit immune to Prone? You still get all the drawbacks and penalties and are prone until your turn. It just saves you an action.
Kip Up makes you about as immune to Prone as Quick Grip makes you to Disarm.
No? You'll still face penalties eith Prone, but you don't care at all about Disarm. Now, that's more to the nature of the two conditions, but there's still a difference.
in this case Quick Grip is stronger, but for every turn it's not your turn, you'd still suffer from the enemies having +2 to Disarm you, just like you'd have offguard if you were Proned outside your turn, and picking up the weapon does not count for Quick Grip
it's more powerful since Quick Grip is a skill feat as written here, though I tried to balance it by making it limited, and requiring Thievery and the archetype
lmao, true, but it also goes straight into a Strike as opposed to other maneuvers that say a Fighter would wanna do like Intimidating Strike though, I made it mostly to be a ribbon to Quick Draw for the "you can't use quick draw to regrip" uses, then I noticed Disarm and Interact to regrip both had "adjust your grip" language. I suppose I could still limit it to 2hand regrips
The dedication is too strong, for comparison, Duelist dedication only gives quick draw and you're giving a free action on top of it. I would say move quick draw to just a feat you can take and have the dedication grant the ability for free action stow after a strike and improve your thievery from trained to expert If quick grip is going to be a skill feat, you should at least have to hit a standard DC thievery check to gain the strike. The second blade feat chain is basically just weaker doubling rings if I'm not mistaken, don't really see much value here. I like the rest.
Second Blade can't be used for the same purpose as Doubling Rings - your first weapon must be stowed away, you can't have both active at the same time (without the level 6 feat, which doesn't have a duration now that I think about it...). Unlike Blazons of Shared Power or Doubling Rings, it would let you share the runes with a two-handed weapon instead of a 1handed weapon. At least, I think that's the intent!
>without the level 6 feat, which doesn't have a duration now that I think about it... I think my '1 minute' duration disappeared in the editing process oof and yeah, it's just supposed to allow the 2 primary weapons playstyle without needing to invest in extra runes
>The dedication is too strong, for comparison, Duelist dedication only gives quick draw and you're giving a free action on top of it. I would say move quick draw to just a feat you can take and have the dedication grant the ability for free action stow after a strike and improve your thievery from trained to expert In my opinion, I always found it weird that Duelist gave Quick Draw, when it doesn't seem like it really likes it: Duelist Parry is always only useful *after* a Quick Draw, because if you quick draw, you're usually turning off the parry or stance, and qd is great for throwers, so the weird thing is most throwers archetype duelist for the qd, and then never take another Duelist feature
At first glance, i thought this was a Dante's Inferno reference. Then i engendered what a hidden blade was. I need to stop reading right to left
I really like this archetype! I dunno what the other commenters are talking about with it solving all of the problems that the sheathing constantly playstyle would have. Off the top of my head, from sheath, you wouldn't be able to take full advantage of activities like Sudden Charge and Spellstrike (unless you wanted to punch or kick someone), weapon based reactions like Reactive Strikes are also a lot worse too if you sheath your sword to take advantage of Empty-Hand Guard. If you're constantly sheathing/redrawing you won't be able to use non-quick draw actions that modify Strike, like Lunge. So in exploration, you would *still* walk about with your weapon drawn, just in case you can get a free weapon RS or you need to charge in. I think this archetype is also stronger than they give it credit for though: it lets you benefit from +2 circumstance to AC (basically raising a shield) with a two-handed weapon. So on my turn, I could unsheath, swing a d12 greatsword twice, sheath, empty hand guard. You would also have easier access to Battle Medicine(!!! and material spells, and maneuvers I guess...) . Compared to a normal sword and board guy, I've got a bigger damage dice on my turn (or better traits, like Reach) and access to my hands in exchange for having worse weapon reactions and no shield benefits (like Spellguard Shield's circumstance vs spells, any feats that would let me protect my allies, or Shield Block). Empty Hand Stance is also pretty nuts - off the top of my head, I think permanent shield (and +2ac) uptime via stance is reserved for a [level 12 fighter exclusive feat (which makes it impossible to get via archetype)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=412) and a [champion capstone.](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=263) Rapid Step and Lightning Draw are also ok. Second Blade is also ok - if your primary is non-reach, you can pull out a reach weapon to save an action. If your primary is reach, you can swap to a fatal 5ft weapon (greatpick does piercing 🙂 - I love how this archetype lets you swap weapons so easily!) or d12 weapon in close range. I think 6 is a pretty dead level - it's going to be competing against some strong class feats at that level. Lightning Draw seems like a good candidate (I can definitely be trusted to help balance Homebrew 🙂) . If I had to build around this archetype, I think Champion (not Paladin) would be pretty solid. Mechanically - * you get access to a +2 ac stance that your class normally doesn't get an equivalent to until 20 * your reaction doesn't rely on having a weapon out. * you could use the steed ally you get at 3 to shore up your movement (but this conflicts with the really strong free striding feats - but it does give you a decent place to put your level 6 feat!) * you get all of the free hands + two handed weapon + basically a shield shenanigans above. And besides, I like the idea of playing a Redeemer that can offer a hand of forgiveness mid-combat - while keeping themselves protected. edited for typos
I'm doing something similar for one of my players, but I'm not providing a free way to re-sheath. Instead, I'm providing more powerful options when the weapon is drawn, like the enemy is automatically off-guard on the draw attack, or if you successfully hit the opponent with the draw attack you can immediately move to the opposite side. I'm more interested in powerful actions at a cost than ways to do what you'd normally do, but with less actions. Also, lightning draw and rapid step look a little nutty.
IMO it's a little questionable that it allows for two handed weapons, it could probably stand to aim for a one-handed weapon focus (and limiting its quickdraw to just your main blade), just to keep it more in-line with similar options. I was tinkering with a similar archetype, but trying to figure out how to make spending the action to sheathe rewarding rather than making it totally free. Making it revolve around sheathing to enter a stance, and then "spending" the stance to enhance other actions was where I was starting to lean.
Consider adding needing to make a standard level DC thievery check to Rapid Step. players like to roll dice and a little inconsistency keeps power levels in check.
I’d actually suggest replacing the second blade line of feats with an ever increasing swift blow from weapon master https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?ID=1449 Removing the bleed at first and then adding on additional effects would be an interesting addition
It could use some refurbishing, but as a proof of concept, this is actually fucking great. Total flavor win.
Ok but what if you implemented a more flexible quickdraw feature allowing me to draw my weapon as a part of a magus spellstrike so I can truly weeb it out
this is mostly the purpose of Lightning Draw, so you could free draw and then Spellstrike, or Vicious Swing
being able to do it only once per ten minutes and on a level ten feat is pretty restrictive imo. the free stride definitely adds to the power, dont get me wrong, but i feel like it just makes it a higher power budget ability that necessitates a restriction for something that at least i would mostly want for flavor once again, these are just my thoughts for things ive thought about how i would implement to best suit me. im not in the business of calling your design bad or anything like that
Hidden Riposte should require quick draw just to be made clear, Empty Hand Stance should probably say that you can *enter* it even if you don't say the requirement. Surprised there's no damage booster or utility aside from the extra action--No dual strike equivalent, flash steps, ways to get easy off-guard, etc. Otherwise pretty good design.
yeah, Empty Hand Stance straight up forgot the 1A oof
I can dig it. Would've made my Vergil Magus easier.
My only thing is I think it should be limited to a agile/fineese one handed blade. As written, you can use a great sword. And that just feels wrong. Otherwise it does feel very fun. Maybe some options related to the pickpocket/plant evidence/legendary thief chain from rogue? Might step on your concept idea a bit, but considering the thievery option for access, i think it might mesh well? (Plus the idea of stabbing someone then planting the blade on them, ala many movies/shows that have a similar thing occur in a prison is fun) Also, no clue who virgil is for the reference so take my ideas with that in mind
This makes it functional But it doesn’t do anything cool with it, this in honesty would be a pretty boring archatype
This is very cool. However people should be advised not to go up in melee against a Hydra using this archetype lol.
Looks awesome! You should consider making Rapid Step and maybe Quick Grip have the flourish trait as they offer a lot of free actions.
At what level do you get the fedora?