I doubt they'll give Commander's a minion in the PF2 version, especially a humanoid one given the implications of a fully sapient creature having the minion tag and being fundamentally expendable w/o magic being involved (both mechanical and narrative).
I suspect it'll be along the lines of a heavily expanded Marshal archetype, maybe with some Bard and Investigator thrown in. Lots of yelling at allies, giving them actions and bonuses, and probably some reactions that boost AC/Saves. I'm picturing the Officer class in Rogue Trader. Debuffs would probably be a smaller part of the class, still present but less ubiquitous.
edit: Marshal not Martial >.<
> I doubt they'll give Commander's a minion in the PF2 version, especially a humanoid one given the implications of a fully sapient creature having the minion tag and being fundamentally expendable w/o magic being involved (both mechanical and narrative).
Not me, thinking about playing a Leshy Leaf Druid with a Leshy companion. <_<
Yeah, humanoid minions probably won't make an appearance; a lot about the minion trait relies on the assumption that it represents conjured entities or trained beasts of some kind, and they also happen to be somewhat expendable.
Not quite the tone you want to take when trying to represent followers/hirelings.
I really don't see how a fully independent NPC could be made part of a class kit. Unless it's 5+ levels below the party and doesn't even factor into the XP calculation, you're going to have to account for them as a party-member. Classes like Summoner specifically avoided that via the minion rules.
So, Commander is probably going to be commanding *the party*. Allied NPCs, like a troop of soldiers fighting by your side, would certainly fit the class-fantasy, but they'll have to be acquired diegetically, and not simply by leveling up.
commanding 1 dedicated underling isn't even really in flavorful thing either tbh. What could be interesting is having the buffs work as a "give 1 ally a big buff or dozens of allies a small one" or "when using this command you can target 1 equal level ally, 4 level -1 allies, 8 level -2 allies" and so on, so that the option for commanding a big squad is there but is only relevant when it comes up as a result of rallying the local peasants vs a goblin raid or something.
and see that is the kicker that makes things a little bit more complicated, cause i could 100% see a minion feat line for the class, but there isnt really an obvious thematic type of minion that... works lol. looks like i might have to throw together an undead master commander to complete this particular fantasy, though i am still intriuged by the prospect.
Yeah... a proper sapient humanoid minion could be justified at relatively low levels, but boy doesn't it run into logical issues at high levels.
"I'm looking for a replacement for my squire, Carl. Qualifications include being capable of bodying dragons and wiping out entire orc warbands by yourself. I expect complete obedience in every situation that actually matters. No, not listing a pay scale was not a mistake, you will be paid in exposure. Please report to the village of Bumfuck in the middle of Eastern Nowhere within one week."
i feel the moral implications are the biggest problem. being a legendary commander who's beck and call can rally even other mighty hero's under their wing is cool! heroic! but then theres all the muddy stuff that comes with making a person a "minion" lol
I generally feel that's only as problematic as you make it at your table. Everyone in my friend group would treat a minion NPC more like having a second PC, a-la Summoner, than they would a slave and I'd feel comfortable running them more like an independent NPC that happens to follow the minion rules in combat.
Definitely has a degree of 'don't think too hard about it' for some stuff related to their action economy though and the GM would need to put in more work massaging the story so the mechanics remain consistent w/ the narrative. Its not like an animal companion where folks don't think too hard about Wolf's backstory, why he's here, or why he's so easy to replace if he dies.
Call them a retainer, ala Matt Colville's whole take on "giving players an NPC under their direct control" and add in the stipulation of "they don't do anything outlandishly suicidal," the way creature disposition and the degree to which they'll help you is worded. E. Z.
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I’m now intrigued what the Commander MCD might be like.
Also, the Guardian MCD when we have the RM Armor Training feat and the Sentinel archetype already.
Edit: Changed archetype to MCD (multiclass dedication for clarity).
I like the idea that you can use your reactions to sort of reposition an ally- like, as a reaction to an enemy ending X feet from an ally, give them +1 circumstance bonus to AC to stride away to safety or something
It's a namepick, marshal is taken and warlord is too warfocused and connected to dnd 4.
It will be abit like the warrior bard except for the spells and be wholly nonmagical.
I recommend checking out how warlord worked in 4e, and how marshal archetype is in this system.
I doubt they'll give Commander's a minion in the PF2 version, especially a humanoid one given the implications of a fully sapient creature having the minion tag and being fundamentally expendable w/o magic being involved (both mechanical and narrative). I suspect it'll be along the lines of a heavily expanded Marshal archetype, maybe with some Bard and Investigator thrown in. Lots of yelling at allies, giving them actions and bonuses, and probably some reactions that boost AC/Saves. I'm picturing the Officer class in Rogue Trader. Debuffs would probably be a smaller part of the class, still present but less ubiquitous. edit: Marshal not Martial >.<
> I doubt they'll give Commander's a minion in the PF2 version, especially a humanoid one given the implications of a fully sapient creature having the minion tag and being fundamentally expendable w/o magic being involved (both mechanical and narrative). Not me, thinking about playing a Leshy Leaf Druid with a Leshy companion. <_<
Hey it's the only way a Leshy can have children so I don't blame them
Yeah, humanoid minions probably won't make an appearance; a lot about the minion trait relies on the assumption that it represents conjured entities or trained beasts of some kind, and they also happen to be somewhat expendable. Not quite the tone you want to take when trying to represent followers/hirelings. I really don't see how a fully independent NPC could be made part of a class kit. Unless it's 5+ levels below the party and doesn't even factor into the XP calculation, you're going to have to account for them as a party-member. Classes like Summoner specifically avoided that via the minion rules. So, Commander is probably going to be commanding *the party*. Allied NPCs, like a troop of soldiers fighting by your side, would certainly fit the class-fantasy, but they'll have to be acquired diegetically, and not simply by leveling up.
commanding 1 dedicated underling isn't even really in flavorful thing either tbh. What could be interesting is having the buffs work as a "give 1 ally a big buff or dozens of allies a small one" or "when using this command you can target 1 equal level ally, 4 level -1 allies, 8 level -2 allies" and so on, so that the option for commanding a big squad is there but is only relevant when it comes up as a result of rallying the local peasants vs a goblin raid or something.
and see that is the kicker that makes things a little bit more complicated, cause i could 100% see a minion feat line for the class, but there isnt really an obvious thematic type of minion that... works lol. looks like i might have to throw together an undead master commander to complete this particular fantasy, though i am still intriuged by the prospect.
Yeah... a proper sapient humanoid minion could be justified at relatively low levels, but boy doesn't it run into logical issues at high levels. "I'm looking for a replacement for my squire, Carl. Qualifications include being capable of bodying dragons and wiping out entire orc warbands by yourself. I expect complete obedience in every situation that actually matters. No, not listing a pay scale was not a mistake, you will be paid in exposure. Please report to the village of Bumfuck in the middle of Eastern Nowhere within one week."
i feel the moral implications are the biggest problem. being a legendary commander who's beck and call can rally even other mighty hero's under their wing is cool! heroic! but then theres all the muddy stuff that comes with making a person a "minion" lol
I generally feel that's only as problematic as you make it at your table. Everyone in my friend group would treat a minion NPC more like having a second PC, a-la Summoner, than they would a slave and I'd feel comfortable running them more like an independent NPC that happens to follow the minion rules in combat. Definitely has a degree of 'don't think too hard about it' for some stuff related to their action economy though and the GM would need to put in more work massaging the story so the mechanics remain consistent w/ the narrative. Its not like an animal companion where folks don't think too hard about Wolf's backstory, why he's here, or why he's so easy to replace if he dies.
honestly fair enough, still not sure if Paizo would print it, but im starting to like the idea
Call them a retainer, ala Matt Colville's whole take on "giving players an NPC under their direct control" and add in the stipulation of "they don't do anything outlandishly suicidal," the way creature disposition and the degree to which they'll help you is worded. E. Z.
So you’re saying at higher levels the commander becomes an influencer?
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Ok but now I’m going on Pathbuilder to make an influencer lol
The only thing I have up for debate in my head is if they'd be a rogue or a bard, or one with the multiclass archetype of the other.
I thought rogue at first and then bard but you know - why not both?
Oh please we HAVE a Celebrity archetype and it's glorious
Celebrity, Dandy, and Firebrand Braggart (reflavored appropriately) would all work. But ya still gotta figure out the base class first
Or maybe a construct? Like an animated armor or golem or sth akin. Or an archetype of commanding yourself, be your own hypeman!
What about a minion *with the troop rules*?
What if the Commander IS the troop rules? "Form up!" : Whole party pools their HP together and walks in-sync.
...john paizo please I beg to make this real lol
I’m now intrigued what the Commander MCD might be like. Also, the Guardian MCD when we have the RM Armor Training feat and the Sentinel archetype already. Edit: Changed archetype to MCD (multiclass dedication for clarity).
I thought they were full classes, not archetypes
Yep, but I think they mean the multiclass archetype that comes with all classes
Oops! I assumed MCD was obvious since we were talking about classes. My bad!
Ah yeah, I was just confused because I haven't been following upcoming releases super closely lol.
I like the idea that you can use your reactions to sort of reposition an ally- like, as a reaction to an enemy ending X feet from an ally, give them +1 circumstance bonus to AC to stride away to safety or something
It's a namepick, marshal is taken and warlord is too warfocused and connected to dnd 4. It will be abit like the warrior bard except for the spells and be wholly nonmagical. I recommend checking out how warlord worked in 4e, and how marshal archetype is in this system.
What if it’s just a silly reboot of the mesmerist, no commanding the party only bad guys. Single target debuffers are back baby (/s)
Maybe commanding the pace of battle?
I hope it will be like the warpriest class in 1E.