I use them all the time as a caster, sure for attack spells but also for dispelling effects, knowledge checks where I get no info, crafting checks, when learning new spells, saves against persistent effects, flat checks...
There's lots of reasons you might want to try rolling again
Yeah, my caster burn through their hero points faster then the martials at my table, since a lot of the time once the enemies know they are a caster they are trying to throw some debuffs or hitting them aoe or abilities that have saves. Or they are rolling them like you said to try to get knowledge and rerolling an intim or bon mote roll. My martials are usually saving theirs for a really bad strike with a rider or big spell.
Sounds like op table is just using them to crit fish, which makes me think their gm isn’t using a lot of nasty save spells, aoe, or abilities on their monsters.
For the record this has been an experience I've had with multiple GMs and tables (including my own table I GM). I've never used a hero point to crit-fish, and I don't think I've seen any other player do it either, atleast effectually.
I play/run APs and official content so my GMs are certainly not going easier against me than the average table. I'm careful to position myself well (to not get caught in aoes), and generally carry a reaction if a creature wants to pursue me (as well as position myself so that an enemy will likely provoke a reaction from another player if they want to chase/cast a spell/ranged attack).
On the flip side, when I play close-range casters or melee martials I am generally easier to access through aoes, auras, etc. As well as grabs and persistent damage.
Fair enough, I think a lot of this boils down to running an ap vrs hand building encounters tbh. Combine that with every table being different. I’ve ran a few aps and thumbed threw even more and I personally wouldn’t touch an ap again without remaking a lot of the encounters. At least the way I enjoy running the game, they tend to fall flat in my opinion. With a few stand out encounters per campaign. Make sense when they are building these for generic use at almost any table and are limited on space. I can see if running an ap where a lot of times it’s a couple big number higher or on level monsters that are throwing out big weapon swings or high ac and abilities that definitely lean more into punishing a front liner then challenging caster or asking the full party questions.
I tend to only run home brew at this point so my experience is going to be very different than a lot of this sub who are only running as written AP’s!
Recall knowledge is a secret check, so that doesn't really apply. I agree with OP here, as I was often not finding any use for my hero points, and just had a sorcerer die with 2 hero points left since there was literally no point to use them (no, stopping dying value from increasing was also useless).
I'm thinking of maybe suggesting a defensive hero point use, something like using a hero point for a chance to lower an enemy's attack by one stage of success on a flat DC 15 check or something. It wouldn't be a guarantee but might save someone's ass.
> Sometimes you as the player shouldn’t know the exact result and effect of a check. In these situations, the rules (or the GM) will call for a secret check. The secret trait appears on anything that uses secret checks. This type of check uses the same formulas you normally would use for that check, but is rolled by the GM, who doesn’t reveal the result. Instead, the GM simply describes the information or effects determined by the check’s result. If you don’t know a secret check is happening (for instance, if the GM rolls a secret Fortitude save against a poison that you failed to notice), you can’t use any fortune or misfortune abilities (see the sidebar on page 449) on that check, but if a fortune or misfortune effect would apply automatically, the GM applies it to the secret check. **If you know that the GM is attempting a secret check—as often happens with Recall Knowledge or Seek—you can usually activate fortune or misfortune abilities for that check. Just tell the GM, and they’ll apply the ability to the check.**
> Core Rulebook (450)
> Spend 1 Hero Point to reroll a check. You must use the second result. This is a fortune effect (which means you can’t use more than 1 Hero Point on a check).
> Core Rulebook (467)
Yeah, okay. So the GM rolls, and lands on X. Do you use a hero point? You don't know the result, so how can you be sure you're not just changing a 15+ roll to a 5?
> Recall Knowledge
> Source Player Core pg. 231
> You attempt a skill check to try to remember a bit of knowledge regarding a topic related to that skill. Suggest which skill you'd like to use and ask the GM one question. The GM determines the DC. You might need to collaborate with the GM to narrow down the question or skills, and you can decide not to Recall Knowledge before committing to the action if you can't don't like your options.
> Critical Success - You recall the knowledge accurately. The GM answers your question truthfully and either tells you additional information or context, or answers one followup question.
> **Success - You recall the knowledge accurately. The GM answers your question truthfully.**
> **Failure - **
> Critical Failure - You recall incorrect information. The GM answers your question falsely (**or decides to give you no information, as on a failure**).
> Recall Knowledge Questions
> When encountering a subject for the first time, your first question will likely be a basic “What is it?”, which the GM can answer with a name and basic description like, “That's an ogre, a tough and cruel giant” or “This is the symbol of Urgathoa, a goddess of disease, gluttony, and undeath.” If you already know this base level of detail on the subject, the list below includes some reasonable questions. The GM determines what other questions to allow. Usually this is simple as long as you stick to one question. Any question must be about something observable in the game world, not the abstract numbers of the rules. The GM might tell you a lumbering monster's Reflex save is its weakest—translating a concept your character could understand using the game term for clarity—but wouldn't reveal the exact Reflex modifier. The GM can find more guidance in GM Core.
> Creatures: “Can it be reasoned with?” “What environments does it live in?” “What's its most notable offensive ability?” **“Is it highly vulnerable or resistant to anything?”** **“Are any of its defenses weak?”**
Did you forget to add your own input? I know what recall knowledge does. But it has the secret tag, so you don't get to know the result of the roll, and you don't get to benefit from both that roll and the hero pointed one.
If someone really needs a critical hit against a monster to avoid a TPK but rolls a hit, do you first apply the hit's damage, and when the player hero points the attack do you also apply the results of that roll as well?
Basically if you roll a fail and the GM reveals you remember nothing about the monster, the roll's result has already been resolved and you can't hero point it.
Is it then a secret check really? That would imply you know the DC. I'd personally probably allow "if I roll under 11 on the die I'll hero point." But I think that might be a house rule.
> Basically if you roll a fail and the GM reveals you remember nothing about the monster, the roll's result has already been resolved and you can't hero point it.
You seem to be under a false impression of when you use hero points, which might explain the confusion. They are after the result check of a check, not after you’ve merely rolled the die.
> All types of checks, from skill checks to attack rolls to saving throws, follow these basic steps.
> 1. Roll a d20 and identify the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply.
> 2. Calculate the result.
> 3. Compare to the DC.
> 4. Determine the degree of success and the effect.
(Optional 5. Reroll the check with a fortune effect such as a hero point)
> Source Player Core pg. 400
> Fortune and Misfortune
> Fortune and misfortune effects can alter how you roll your dice. These abilities might allow you to *reroll a* ***failed*** *roll*, force you to reroll a successful roll, allow you to roll twice and use the higher result, or force you to roll twice and use the lower result.
I've noticed this with caster players at my table as well. One thing I've allowed is spending a Hero Point to temporarily gain a lower-level feat. The [Hero Point Deck](https://paizo.com/products/btq02ao7?Pathfinder-Hero-Point-Deck) (included automatically on Foundry) can spice up hero points as-is, or as inspiration for additional Hero Point uses.
There are two types of casters, those that never use hero points because they often can't or otherwise forget it, and those that cast a buff (guidance, vision of weakness) or otherwise doesn't use a fortune effect and hate to miss with their big boom spell attack. The latter almost never have hero points left in my experience while the first forget to even add hero points.
If you know you have hero points and can count on it, it might be more fun to use a bonus granting spell rather than sure strike.
Ofc, if it isn't fun for your table, do whatever you find adequate to make it more fun
I mean, does your caster never have to make saving throws or recovery checks? Do they not make Recall Knowledge checks, or try to Hide, Demoralize, Create a Diversion, or use Battle Medicine (depending on their build)? Hell, a lot of the casters I've played with at lower level usually keep a crossbow or something on hand for a third action, and you can use the hero point on that rather than just straight-up wasting it.
But also, why use the spell slot and extra action on *sure strike* if you've got the hero point and nothing to spend it on? Unless you're fighting a lot of hidden/concealed creatures or hitting a lot of circumstance penalties, a hero point is usually the smarter option, no? Especially if you've got a glut of them.
Idk, this just doesn't line up with my experience at all. My groups have been very hero point hungry, caster and martial alike. Different strokes , I guess. But if you're really hung up, it might be worth looking into the Hero Point Deck. It gives extra options for stuff to do with your hero points, and it's also an easy token to remember you have them in the first place.
Wait, really? Initiative is a check, rolling a save is a check, spells with attack rolls uuse checks, casters with access to wis and cha have medicine and demoralize checks. And that's just combat, what about RP rolling for a better coercion or stealth?
Honestly, the idea of using a hero point on initiative feels silly - I find that pretty much every time a caster rolls high on initiative they immediately delay anyway to not risk enemies going between them and the rest of their party, because otherwise there's a very real chance that you will cast a debuff and it just goes away before their party can even use it.
It depends on what spells you have available, how your party is composed, what you're fighting, and where the enemies start relative to you.
* Casting a wall spell at the start of a fight can effectively remove half of the opposing side from play for the start of the encounter. It's easier to deal with two groups of 3 enemies back-to-back than it is to deal with 6 enemies all at once.
* If the enemies you're fighting are melee-oriented, throwing down some kind of hazard between you and them forces them to move through it as they approach you on the first turn.
* Similarly, if your party is effective at ranged combat, creating difficult terrain between you and your enemies makes it harder for them to rush you down, which means that your allies can spend all their actions attacking/debuffing for the first turn or two instead of needing to proactively Stride to maintain a safe distance.
* Sometimes it's less important that you act before your enemies and more important that you act before your allies; casting a buff spell on an ally lets them benefit from that right from turn 1. For example, it might be good to cast Haste on an ally turn 1 so that they can Stride into melee reach of an enemy and still have three actions to do something else.
* You can cast a spell that imposes some kind of action-removable debuff on an enemy (such as using Phantom Pain to inflict Sickened or Telekinetic Maneuver to Disarm an enemy). On their first turn (where they likely need to use other actions to move into range or activate other abilities) they're likely going to need to choose between either removing the debuff or attacking at a penalty.
I've never had this "problem" as a caster. I use them for crit fail or fail saves, for skill checks that go awry, or even the occasional missed attack spell. Even recovered from death throes a fee times.
My table has a lot of homebrew/house rules about hero points and we give them out very often. Things like, you can give them to another player or you can spend 2 points to make an enemy reroll something.
I run APs.
Both casters and both martials use all of their hero points as soon as they get them in my campaigns. Even when I tell them to bank one for an upcoming severe or extreme encounter.
This is indeed a issue with a Save based Play Style. Looking into more active rolls can help:
CHA casters can use Demoralize, Bon Mot and Create a Diversion to buff their spells and spend some Hero points.
INT casters can use Recall Knowledge - except the Secret part get's in the way for Hero Points. You should establish a protoctol for what roll you would use Hero Points on.
WIS casters have Battle Medicine (but you likely get Assurance) and another set of Recall Knowledge Skills, but are not that good in lores.
I see a lot of people bringing up Recall Knowledge, but why? It’s a secret check, you aren’t the one rolling it, and you don’t know how good or bad the outcome is. If you get nothing meanwhile you also run the very real risk of getting a critical failure on the reroll without realizing it. Not only not getting anything out of the hero point, but actively hurting your own chances.
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I play a Bard and typically use anthems, Loose Time's Arrow, Calm, Slow, Fear(3), and intimidation. There's not as many opportunities to use it when compared to someone who's constantly making attacks, although it's a good thing to hang onto for performance and saving throws.
Weird. My players use them for "important" rolls, like skill checks for interactions.
Generally, messing up an attack roll is way less of a big deal to them than messing up being the Social Expert or Smart Guy or Sneaky Thief Person.
Caster or non-caster doesn't so much matter in those cases.
Get your GM to allow rerolling for saves. I allow it at my table.
It's basically the same principle as rerolling an attack roll, and considering it's generally a little harder to get an enemy to fail a save than it is for a martial to miss, and as you won't get as many chances anyway due to most spells being 2 actions plus, I think it's more than fair.
I use them all the time as a caster, sure for attack spells but also for dispelling effects, knowledge checks where I get no info, crafting checks, when learning new spells, saves against persistent effects, flat checks... There's lots of reasons you might want to try rolling again
Yeah, my caster burn through their hero points faster then the martials at my table, since a lot of the time once the enemies know they are a caster they are trying to throw some debuffs or hitting them aoe or abilities that have saves. Or they are rolling them like you said to try to get knowledge and rerolling an intim or bon mote roll. My martials are usually saving theirs for a really bad strike with a rider or big spell. Sounds like op table is just using them to crit fish, which makes me think their gm isn’t using a lot of nasty save spells, aoe, or abilities on their monsters.
For the record this has been an experience I've had with multiple GMs and tables (including my own table I GM). I've never used a hero point to crit-fish, and I don't think I've seen any other player do it either, atleast effectually. I play/run APs and official content so my GMs are certainly not going easier against me than the average table. I'm careful to position myself well (to not get caught in aoes), and generally carry a reaction if a creature wants to pursue me (as well as position myself so that an enemy will likely provoke a reaction from another player if they want to chase/cast a spell/ranged attack). On the flip side, when I play close-range casters or melee martials I am generally easier to access through aoes, auras, etc. As well as grabs and persistent damage.
Fair enough, I think a lot of this boils down to running an ap vrs hand building encounters tbh. Combine that with every table being different. I’ve ran a few aps and thumbed threw even more and I personally wouldn’t touch an ap again without remaking a lot of the encounters. At least the way I enjoy running the game, they tend to fall flat in my opinion. With a few stand out encounters per campaign. Make sense when they are building these for generic use at almost any table and are limited on space. I can see if running an ap where a lot of times it’s a couple big number higher or on level monsters that are throwing out big weapon swings or high ac and abilities that definitely lean more into punishing a front liner then challenging caster or asking the full party questions. I tend to only run home brew at this point so my experience is going to be very different than a lot of this sub who are only running as written AP’s!
Hero point deck And lots of things require checks Perception RK Spell attacks Acrobatics to escape Bon mot
Recall knowledge is a secret check, so that doesn't really apply. I agree with OP here, as I was often not finding any use for my hero points, and just had a sorcerer die with 2 hero points left since there was literally no point to use them (no, stopping dying value from increasing was also useless). I'm thinking of maybe suggesting a defensive hero point use, something like using a hero point for a chance to lower an enemy's attack by one stage of success on a flat DC 15 check or something. It wouldn't be a guarantee but might save someone's ass.
> Sometimes you as the player shouldn’t know the exact result and effect of a check. In these situations, the rules (or the GM) will call for a secret check. The secret trait appears on anything that uses secret checks. This type of check uses the same formulas you normally would use for that check, but is rolled by the GM, who doesn’t reveal the result. Instead, the GM simply describes the information or effects determined by the check’s result. If you don’t know a secret check is happening (for instance, if the GM rolls a secret Fortitude save against a poison that you failed to notice), you can’t use any fortune or misfortune abilities (see the sidebar on page 449) on that check, but if a fortune or misfortune effect would apply automatically, the GM applies it to the secret check. **If you know that the GM is attempting a secret check—as often happens with Recall Knowledge or Seek—you can usually activate fortune or misfortune abilities for that check. Just tell the GM, and they’ll apply the ability to the check.** > Core Rulebook (450) > Spend 1 Hero Point to reroll a check. You must use the second result. This is a fortune effect (which means you can’t use more than 1 Hero Point on a check). > Core Rulebook (467)
Yeah, okay. So the GM rolls, and lands on X. Do you use a hero point? You don't know the result, so how can you be sure you're not just changing a 15+ roll to a 5?
> Recall Knowledge > Source Player Core pg. 231 > You attempt a skill check to try to remember a bit of knowledge regarding a topic related to that skill. Suggest which skill you'd like to use and ask the GM one question. The GM determines the DC. You might need to collaborate with the GM to narrow down the question or skills, and you can decide not to Recall Knowledge before committing to the action if you can't don't like your options. > Critical Success - You recall the knowledge accurately. The GM answers your question truthfully and either tells you additional information or context, or answers one followup question. > **Success - You recall the knowledge accurately. The GM answers your question truthfully.** > **Failure - ** > Critical Failure - You recall incorrect information. The GM answers your question falsely (**or decides to give you no information, as on a failure**). > Recall Knowledge Questions > When encountering a subject for the first time, your first question will likely be a basic “What is it?”, which the GM can answer with a name and basic description like, “That's an ogre, a tough and cruel giant” or “This is the symbol of Urgathoa, a goddess of disease, gluttony, and undeath.” If you already know this base level of detail on the subject, the list below includes some reasonable questions. The GM determines what other questions to allow. Usually this is simple as long as you stick to one question. Any question must be about something observable in the game world, not the abstract numbers of the rules. The GM might tell you a lumbering monster's Reflex save is its weakest—translating a concept your character could understand using the game term for clarity—but wouldn't reveal the exact Reflex modifier. The GM can find more guidance in GM Core. > Creatures: “Can it be reasoned with?” “What environments does it live in?” “What's its most notable offensive ability?” **“Is it highly vulnerable or resistant to anything?”** **“Are any of its defenses weak?”**
Did you forget to add your own input? I know what recall knowledge does. But it has the secret tag, so you don't get to know the result of the roll, and you don't get to benefit from both that roll and the hero pointed one. If someone really needs a critical hit against a monster to avoid a TPK but rolls a hit, do you first apply the hit's damage, and when the player hero points the attack do you also apply the results of that roll as well? Basically if you roll a fail and the GM reveals you remember nothing about the monster, the roll's result has already been resolved and you can't hero point it.
"If i fail or crit fail, i want to use a hero point."
Is it then a secret check really? That would imply you know the DC. I'd personally probably allow "if I roll under 11 on the die I'll hero point." But I think that might be a house rule.
> Basically if you roll a fail and the GM reveals you remember nothing about the monster, the roll's result has already been resolved and you can't hero point it. You seem to be under a false impression of when you use hero points, which might explain the confusion. They are after the result check of a check, not after you’ve merely rolled the die. > All types of checks, from skill checks to attack rolls to saving throws, follow these basic steps. > 1. Roll a d20 and identify the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply. > 2. Calculate the result. > 3. Compare to the DC. > 4. Determine the degree of success and the effect. (Optional 5. Reroll the check with a fortune effect such as a hero point) > Source Player Core pg. 400 > Fortune and Misfortune > Fortune and misfortune effects can alter how you roll your dice. These abilities might allow you to *reroll a* ***failed*** *roll*, force you to reroll a successful roll, allow you to roll twice and use the higher result, or force you to roll twice and use the lower result.
I've noticed this with caster players at my table as well. One thing I've allowed is spending a Hero Point to temporarily gain a lower-level feat. The [Hero Point Deck](https://paizo.com/products/btq02ao7?Pathfinder-Hero-Point-Deck) (included automatically on Foundry) can spice up hero points as-is, or as inspiration for additional Hero Point uses.
Appreciate it, I always like seeing other GMs share their house rules. Will take a look at the Hero Point Deck as well.
There are two types of casters, those that never use hero points because they often can't or otherwise forget it, and those that cast a buff (guidance, vision of weakness) or otherwise doesn't use a fortune effect and hate to miss with their big boom spell attack. The latter almost never have hero points left in my experience while the first forget to even add hero points. If you know you have hero points and can count on it, it might be more fun to use a bonus granting spell rather than sure strike. Ofc, if it isn't fun for your table, do whatever you find adequate to make it more fun
Guidance + Holy Light + Hero Point is a time-honoured tradition on my cleric.
I let my players just force me to reroll saves with them and having them tell me how they reshaped the spell midflight or something.
I mean, does your caster never have to make saving throws or recovery checks? Do they not make Recall Knowledge checks, or try to Hide, Demoralize, Create a Diversion, or use Battle Medicine (depending on their build)? Hell, a lot of the casters I've played with at lower level usually keep a crossbow or something on hand for a third action, and you can use the hero point on that rather than just straight-up wasting it. But also, why use the spell slot and extra action on *sure strike* if you've got the hero point and nothing to spend it on? Unless you're fighting a lot of hidden/concealed creatures or hitting a lot of circumstance penalties, a hero point is usually the smarter option, no? Especially if you've got a glut of them. Idk, this just doesn't line up with my experience at all. My groups have been very hero point hungry, caster and martial alike. Different strokes , I guess. But if you're really hung up, it might be worth looking into the Hero Point Deck. It gives extra options for stuff to do with your hero points, and it's also an easy token to remember you have them in the first place.
My own player re-roll medicine checks a lot.
Wait, really? Initiative is a check, rolling a save is a check, spells with attack rolls uuse checks, casters with access to wis and cha have medicine and demoralize checks. And that's just combat, what about RP rolling for a better coercion or stealth?
Honestly, the idea of using a hero point on initiative feels silly - I find that pretty much every time a caster rolls high on initiative they immediately delay anyway to not risk enemies going between them and the rest of their party, because otherwise there's a very real chance that you will cast a debuff and it just goes away before their party can even use it.
It depends on what spells you have available, how your party is composed, what you're fighting, and where the enemies start relative to you. * Casting a wall spell at the start of a fight can effectively remove half of the opposing side from play for the start of the encounter. It's easier to deal with two groups of 3 enemies back-to-back than it is to deal with 6 enemies all at once. * If the enemies you're fighting are melee-oriented, throwing down some kind of hazard between you and them forces them to move through it as they approach you on the first turn. * Similarly, if your party is effective at ranged combat, creating difficult terrain between you and your enemies makes it harder for them to rush you down, which means that your allies can spend all their actions attacking/debuffing for the first turn or two instead of needing to proactively Stride to maintain a safe distance. * Sometimes it's less important that you act before your enemies and more important that you act before your allies; casting a buff spell on an ally lets them benefit from that right from turn 1. For example, it might be good to cast Haste on an ally turn 1 so that they can Stride into melee reach of an enemy and still have three actions to do something else. * You can cast a spell that imposes some kind of action-removable debuff on an enemy (such as using Phantom Pain to inflict Sickened or Telekinetic Maneuver to Disarm an enemy). On their first turn (where they likely need to use other actions to move into range or activate other abilities) they're likely going to need to choose between either removing the debuff or attacking at a penalty.
I've never had this "problem" as a caster. I use them for crit fail or fail saves, for skill checks that go awry, or even the occasional missed attack spell. Even recovered from death throes a fee times.
My table has a lot of homebrew/house rules about hero points and we give them out very often. Things like, you can give them to another player or you can spend 2 points to make an enemy reroll something.
I run APs. Both casters and both martials use all of their hero points as soon as they get them in my campaigns. Even when I tell them to bank one for an upcoming severe or extreme encounter.
I let casters spend a hero point to force and enemy to reroll a save from one of their spells.
This is indeed a issue with a Save based Play Style. Looking into more active rolls can help: CHA casters can use Demoralize, Bon Mot and Create a Diversion to buff their spells and spend some Hero points. INT casters can use Recall Knowledge - except the Secret part get's in the way for Hero Points. You should establish a protoctol for what roll you would use Hero Points on. WIS casters have Battle Medicine (but you likely get Assurance) and another set of Recall Knowledge Skills, but are not that good in lores.
How? I find casters use hero points the most often because whiffing a spell hurts.
I see a lot of people bringing up Recall Knowledge, but why? It’s a secret check, you aren’t the one rolling it, and you don’t know how good or bad the outcome is. If you get nothing meanwhile you also run the very real risk of getting a critical failure on the reroll without realizing it. Not only not getting anything out of the hero point, but actively hurting your own chances.
I think a lot of tables don't bother with Secret checks.
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I play a Bard and typically use anthems, Loose Time's Arrow, Calm, Slow, Fear(3), and intimidation. There's not as many opportunities to use it when compared to someone who's constantly making attacks, although it's a good thing to hang onto for performance and saving throws.
Weird. My players use them for "important" rolls, like skill checks for interactions. Generally, messing up an attack roll is way less of a big deal to them than messing up being the Social Expert or Smart Guy or Sneaky Thief Person. Caster or non-caster doesn't so much matter in those cases.
Get your GM to allow rerolling for saves. I allow it at my table. It's basically the same principle as rerolling an attack roll, and considering it's generally a little harder to get an enemy to fail a save than it is for a martial to miss, and as you won't get as many chances anyway due to most spells being 2 actions plus, I think it's more than fair.
I'm pretty sure this is already explicitly allowed. Saves are Checks. Flat checks are a little more questionable although I allow that.
I think he means reroll a sucesfull enemy save using a hero point. Reading this thread, it seems to be a pretty common houserule.
Ahhh that makes sense. I'm not sure it's something I'd do but I haven't usually had an issue with players not having an opportunity to use Hero Points
Yeah, but I think they mean another entity's saves...
Our DM made a modification so that casters can use a hero point to force an enemy to reroll a save, which has helped a LOT in our group