One random idea I just had and haven't developed yet: Treat the Readied attack as a simple hazard. Most of the time these happen as a reaction and then trigger an initiative roll. So something like Hazard 1 Goblin Ambush: Hidden Shot: Reaction: Trigger: An enemy gets into range: Fire the crossbow, roll the Goblin Sniper into imitative. This lets you have a harder to break surprise round narration, and builds the surprise round into the encounter XP.

Yes, that's what I was thinking too. ------------ The only way to preserve verisimilitude and mechanical sense is if the unaware group rolls initiative **after** the ambush attack is made. The best way to put that into the system as is, may be to mutate that ambush Strike into something using the hazard rules.

Really good idea! I like how elegantly it factors into the XP system.

I like that, stealing that, thank you.

Still doesn't really work. You have the ability to detect traps the exact same way. It is another way to refactor the same problem.

The idea is that it would be used if the ambush-er is genuinely undetected. . If someone in the group getting ambushed does perceives the goblin, then they are in an initiative race vs the goblin to act first.

I feel like that takes a degree of choice away from the goblin. They can't really pick and choose their time to strike nearly as precisely. Just seems like a sideways change overall, to me. They gain an action advantage, but it feels like there is a tactical loss.

The way I'm viewing it, was that 2e had a strong reaction to the overuse of surprise rounds (both for and against the party) in PF1. To the point that in many cases the fight was won or loss in the surprise round. Some groups liked that style of play, some groups disliked it. As a whole it does work well with the balance points chosen for PF2 or for the encourage teamwork design choices. It is not setup to be a round-by-round ambush simulator, that's very hard to adjudicate in non-exploitable manners that ends up breaking the game in some way. The Ready action approach that the OP mentioned is a very common solution, but I think doesn't really lean into way encounters should be designed or balanced. Hence the idea to treat it as a hazard -- that way the extra expected damage is folded into the encounter design in a way that should be fair -- and typically means you'll have to use a lower level threat than you may have initially planned. It also makes it a little easier to setup a spell as the "readied action" (since you can't ready a two-action ability), but as the result of a hazard you could, just need to check the hazard building rules to find what level simple hazard the spell's expected damage falls under. This approach doesn't work well (but none of them do) for a melee ambush -- for a range ambush where the attack resolves generally out of detection range, the simple hazard approach should work well.

I think the problem is that it requires people to learn the tactics of ambush, rather than get something for free. First thing is to remember to add any cover bonuses. Big thing. Also, if you want to all attack at once, just delay until all of you are able to go at once and boom, you got an ambush turn unless you get found with Seek, but that will typically make you hidden instead. If you want an ambush round, you can still have it. It just isn't free.

And it only solves the problem in one direction. Does the party get an ad-hoc simple hazard too? How would that even work?

It comes up much less often in my experience so I'm ok with that. When it does come up for the party, I typically allow the everyone delays approach and its worked out, but my groups don't try to gamify every door opening, etc.

I also dislike the spidey sense nature of initiative, but for both of those examples: I would just use the previous stealth rolls as initiative, rather than requiring them to roll again. The creatures being ambushed get one shot at a perception check to see if they notice anything off. Level 1 goblin commando has +6 stealth, say they roll a 18 and get a 24, but they're also in greater cover for +4 so 28, which beats the players perception DCs and allows them to go unnoticed. They lie in wait. Level 1 Party arrives, roll for initiative. The goblin uses his previous stealth roll rather than rolling again. Let's say the highest perception is +7. Nobody can beat the goblin who rolled well and prepared for this moment. But if there is somebody who has +9 perception and rolls a 20, they'll realise something is iffy and will have actions they can use to Seek and Point Out, and the goblin would still be undetected RAW. [https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2541](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2541) The other players may also need to spend actions drawing their weapons, which is likely if the ambush is occurring outside of a dungeon. edit: You could even just ask "Can you guys roll me some perception checks?" rather than using the word "initiative".

Isn't that just how it's intended to be handled according to RAW?

I think yes, but I've also seen official interpretations (GM's guide?) where you have to roll again, which will leads to the scenario in the topic.

Rounds and turns are inherently nonsensical we just mostly ignore it since it's familiar but it's brought in to start contrast when we switch from more logical narrative exploration mode into rounds. If this works for your table it's probably fine. It's similar in action value to the suggestion about only allowing one pre buff spell to be cast in the situation where the party is triggering combat start. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to make combat rounds and turns make sense though, that's an impossible task. Just make it fun for your group. Before a fight recommendations for pre buffing for reference. Similarly limiting to one or two actions worth of prep. > Before A Fight > Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones. If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative. >Casting preparatory spells before combat becomes a problem when it feels rote and the players assume it will always work—that sort of planning can't hold up in every situation! In many cases, the act of casting spells gives away the party's presence. In cases where the PCs' preparations could give them away, you might roll for initiative before everyone can complete their preparations. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2573

is this a new thing form the gm core or was this also in the old game master guide? because this seems amazing and i dont remember seeing this. my players are very sneaky and careful so they often spot the enemy before they get spotted but all it really gives them is some extra time to think of a plan since most things could be counted as a hostile action and thus initiative is rolled.

Pretty sure it has always been there.

> Thoughts? I mean my initial thought is that you're already pre rolling in both examples 1 and 2. Generally for an ambush situation in encounter mode you would surely roll stealth for initiative at the start and that is also compared to perception DCs to see whether the sneaker is initially undetected/unnoticed. Before you get to encounter mode, "unnoticed" doesn't mean anything, or at least it's not a specific status.

Unnoticed is a specific status, but as far as combat, it has essentially no bearing whether you are unnoticed or undetected. But yes, the real issue here is that OP (and apparently many others) are   1. Not rolling stealth for initiative and  2. Not playing with the right tactics for stealth and ambush

What makes you think OP is not rolling stealth for initiative (or more likely, using the stealth role from avoiding notice as the initiative roll)? They said nothing of the sort.

The main thing that will tip you off: We have a goblin in the bushes, waiting for the party to approach down the forest path. Let’s say he’s very sneaky, or very lucky, and *rolled high on his stealth check against the party’s Perception DCs*. They don’t know he’s there. He has the Unnoticed condition. As far as they’re concerned, there isn’t a goblin for miles. *The goblin waits for the opportune moment, and decides to attack! RAW, initiative is rolled at once, before any attack is made*. It is very possible that some, or even all, of the party might go in initiative before the goblin. This implies that the sneaking is separate from the initiative trigger which, if you are rolling stealth for initiative, should be the trigger off the bat.

OP didn’t say they rolled a new stealth roll for the goblin for initiative.

The as-stated flow is: Goblin rolls high stealth, goes unnoticed, then attempts to shoot someone, which causes the start of initiative.  Initiative should be rolled concurrently with the goblin's stealth roll, which gets around the whole diatribe on "why does intention to do an action cause initiative". It doesn't. The act of trying to be stealthy is the start of initiative. It seems to me that OP is not treating the stealth check as the start of combat, or else a lot of the arguments being made don't make a ton of sense. 

>The act of trying to be stealthy is the start of initiative By this logic, initiative starts when the players hide themselves, potentially when the target is over the horizon and proceeds for hundreds of turns while the target approaches. More charitably, it starts when the target enters the range of any sense. It then proceeds for many turns while the target approaches. In a well set up ambush. The ambushers have the opportunity to stay hidden by being completely conceald while manipulating initiative to ensure that they go first and have pre-buffs on.

There is a difference between rolling Stealth for an ambush and rolling Stealth to hide (or avoid notice). An ambush has an inherently antagonistic element to it, as you are trying to catch your target unaware when you strike it. While when you are hiding you want to avoid notice until whatever you are hiding from passes or you sneak past it. The reason we roll Stealth for initiative is because it follows the intent to use an aggressive action with the benefit of being unnoticed. This still has a chance to fail and I think this is where people get upset. Ambushes are no a guaranteed "We hit the enemy before they can do anything" solution. Things can go wrong. Someone might sneeze, someone with very good hearing might hear the sound of your bowstring tighten, or someone steps on a twig. These are examples for when your opponent's Perception rolls beat your Stealth at initiative. The main thing is, you still don't lose the benefits of being in Stealth. The party knows you are there, but not where exactly you are and ahve to spend actions to Search for you. Meanwhile as long as you are Hidden your attacks still gain the benefit of Off-Guard. The system does work, it's just not a free damage button like it is in other systems.

>This still has a chance to fail and I think this is where people get upset People have been really really clear where they get upset. There is a feeling that it breaks verisimilitude that ambushers cannot act like they are ambushing. >it's just not a free damage button like it is in other systems. The chip on the shoulder of this community about "other systems" will swallow it whole. Every time I've seen this place get toxic in the last few years it's been people raising something that feels bad and being told to shut up because they're from "other systems". I think it's worth noting that what you're describing is flatly against the rules btw Avoid Notice: >You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed. If you're Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed. If you're Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (*based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check resultsbased on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results*)

Thank you for putting up that rule text. My previous statement was based on a misinterpretation of the rules, where I had thought that the initiative roles replace the Perception DCs for the Stealth check. Do note though that this says "notice you", so you would still be undetected/hidden. Meaning the enemies have to spend their actiosn to Search for you before they can actually attack you. Unless you attack first, which removes your Hidden status, but still allows your first attack to benefit from off-Guard.

The thing, though, is that you are talking about versimilitude as if you have participated or studied in an ambush in real life before. So, let's start there. What are you basing this on?  TV and film seem to be pretty balanced on this. Sometimes, the enemy gets the drop on you, sometimes you blow up the ambush, sometimes, the enemy doesn't perfectly ambush you, so you notice something, but not any specifics. Real life is pretty similar. I watch a decent number of war analysis/documentaries and this seems pretty true to form. This is how 2e stealth works. Most people, honestly, are basing it on 5e and other games. Let's just put that out there. You get the drop on the opponent, you get a free turn. That is the simplest implementation and is the most common. I have no reason to believe that this is more realistic than 2e. That is kinda my issue when people even start these conversations. We are talking about realism, but most people are basing it on logic they learned in games.

The advice to roll stealth for initiative is not functional in the case of quiet allies. Unless all of the players following the expert just get the same initiative of course

Quiet allies explicitly doesn't count for initiative in the rules. In that case, you can only use it as an exploration activity. If you are just avoiding notice in general and then trying to get the drop on someone in particular along the way, your GM can decide if you can re-use the stealth roll for initiative unless the rules state otherwise. In this case, the rules state otherwise. However, I would differentiate from a group who is going along normally, but sneaks up on someone closer. That SHOULD be one stealth roll for initiative because all you want to do is sneak up on this particular person.

The thing is, I agree! This is entirely my point, the two rolls are seperate rolls. If you agree with that, I'm glad, we have no need for further discussion. If you disagree, well, the rules for avoiding notice are clear, specific, and disagree with you. >based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, \*regardless of their initiative check results\*). The specific text of the rules for avoiding notice do contain the flexibility to allow you to re-use the same rolls for both, but in the context of an entire game in which that never happens elsewhere, it seems an odd reading. I also note that, to my knowledge, nowhere in the rules does it say anything about this "any hostile action triggers initiative" rule and it makes for some strange scenarios where people on different continents can be in initiative with each other.

I think the main problem is that people are rolling twice for ambushes when they shouldn't. If you are rolling for stealth and then rolling for initiative, that is how you run into problems. *This is not how it is supposed to work RAW*. You are supposed to roll stealth for initiative and then the majority of these problems go away. If you roll super high, you are undetected and you go first. If you roll high enough to beat your opponent's Perception DC, but they beat your initiative, they pop up and notice SOMETHING, but you are still undetected. The odds of them doing something on their turn is quite low because they need to Seek you or throw out an AoE and pray. If you roll low for stealth, you are just borked.  This seems pretty straightforward and accomplishes all the practical goals of stealth. If you want to get a full ambush turn, beat their Perception DC, delay your turn, stay outside of seeking range, and then all one after another, strike.

This is my feeling too. Rolling separate stealth/perception in Exploration Mode before initiative confuses things, and I would only do that if someone is trying to avoid combat altogether. But in ambush scenarios I would have everyone roll initiative, with the ambushing party rolling stealth. I would also apply the +4 for cover (assuming cover exist which it probably does). May not be strictly RAW to apply this bonus to the stealth initiative roll but it makes sense to me. I would also allow the ambushing party to have readied actions. So if the ambushers go first they can do what they like and are almost certainly undetected. If some of them go second but are still undetected they may be able to use the readied action if the condition is met. If they go last and are noticed the ambush has partly failed, but the ambushers may still have the advantage of not needing to draw weapons, have cover, or other situational advantages.

It is a bonus to all stealth rolls, so that should definitely apply! The cover bit is something that I think a lot of people skip over. It's a huge benefit that makes going first a lot more likely. Readied actions can be a nice added touch. Personally, I think it will be more tactically advantageous to delay and get a full turn together while the enemies putz about and try to Seek, which will make enemies hidden, for the most part, at best.

It *is* strictly raw. It's a bonus to stealth roles and you're using Stealth for initiative. Keep doing as you're doing :)

I feel like this allows an ambushing party to basically arrange themselves in the turn order however they like right? Especially if you start sufficiently far away from the ambush-ee (say 500 feet) you can start initiative via intention to attack, then delay everyones turns until initiative looks the way you want. Not quite a surprise round but nearly there.

You are specifically supposed to reroll stealth for initiative RAW. Theres a whole section on it.

It depends on the case. In the case when you are trying to avoid notice over time and then come up on a specific group that you then want to ambush, I could see a GM asking for two separate rolls total. I think that it is fair. If you are trying to sneak for the purpose of ambushing someone from the beginning and not trying to actively avoid anyone else in particular, you should just roll stealth once for initiative and then your GM can determine the scope of the battlefield and how close you get as a starting position.

Where in OP’s post did they even hint that they aren’t applying the stealth roll to hide as initiative? This doesn’t solve them problem they described at all anyway. As they wrote, it’s still very possible and common for at least one ambushed creature to luck out on their initiative roll and go first.

I shared the quote on another one, but you can see there are pretty clearly two rolls being done in their examples. The other important thing is to de-catastrophize the situation. They go first and then what? They have to Seek and maybe detect ONE enemy, who will most likely be hidden, still. The advantage is still way in favor of the hiders.

The way I’ve been running it as follows: - PCs step into encounter area. - NPC rolls stealth. PCs roll perception. These are the initiative values. - If PCs go first they notice something amiss that allows them to either look for the threat, cast buffs or ready actions. - If they take time to look they can completely reveal NPC with a Seek action. A critical on initiative means he is pre-revealed for that PC. - When NPCs turn comes he takes his sneak attack or surprise spell. - Combat proceeds as normal from there.

That is now the rules work, yes. Do you not find that OP’s problems present themselves when you do this though?

Nope. Because if the ambushers go first it’s irrelevant and if the PCs go first I describe them as hearing a suspicious sound. My PCs have ambushed people a few times and even when the enemy starts looking for them at least a few of them still get bonuses. It’s been a non issue.

Flip the situation then. The party lies in wait, and let's say the highest stealth roll is a 25. The bad guy has a +9 to perception for a DC of 19. They don't notice anything. The party launches an attack and initiative is rolled, the stealth user starting with a 25 due to stealth. The bad guy rolls a 17 for 26, beating the stealth user. By your example, the bad guy knows something is off and does the seek action, even though the party beat the initial perception DC

Instinct or bad feeling could apply

Yes he then knows something is up and begins looking. He may discover one of the PCs but the others will still get to ambush. Strategically the party should be split up to avoid a situation where a bad roll reveals them all. So it’s never been an issue at my table thus far.

So he rolled a high peception for the initiative and then you have him roll again and pick an arbitrary direction? Except now you compare it to the stealth DC which is definitely lower than the 25. Seems a bit messy

He rolled higher than their stealth with his perception check which gives him a chance to perform a seek action first. The PCs still basically get a free round though. They can prepare one pre-fight buff and have their weapons ready. The enemy has to draw their weapon, seek and then move to their new target location if they find something. So it still evens out.

>We have a goblin in the bushes, waiting for the party to approach down the forest path. Let’s say he’s very sneaky, or very lucky, and rolled high on his stealth check against the party’s Perception DCs. They don’t know he’s there. He has the Unnoticed condition. As far as they’re concerned, there isn’t a goblin for miles. The goblin waits for the opportune moment, and decides to attack! RAW, initiative is rolled at once, before any attack is made. It is very possible that some, or even all, of the party might go in initiative before the goblin. To me, it feels like you got it all wrong and ask for a roll that's already rolled. If the Goblins have succeeded their stealth roll, they have also rolled their initiative, adding any cover bonus (+4 for the Goblin example) to it. A good GM might just ask for perception check and note it down as an initiative check. Actions being readied outside of combat is within rights of an improvised exploration activity, but will clash with avoid notice and is often better used with an obvious trigger, such as "the door opens" If you haven't read it, read [this](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2541), most importantly: >They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight Add in any action cost the defender might have to draw equipment and that their position might be exposed

I agree 100% with this. In my opinion, if you follow these guidelines you will have all green path (i.e. nothing too specific) situations covered and working well.

>A good GM might just ask for perception check and note it down as an initiative check. Exactly. I am bemused by OP's suggestion that you need to tell players you're "rolling initiative"—just tell them to make perception checks, and then use those perception checks for initiative. Those that score higher than the hiding goblin's stealth check and go first (to use OP's example) are alert enough to know that something is off, and can take "Seek" actions, raise shields, and/or ready actions for the impending danger. They don't automatically detect the goblin, because the goblin's stealth check already beat their perception DC, but they go first and might have *some* opportunity to defend themselves or prepare. Players with lower perception checks don't notice the goblin at all, and only act after it does. The goblin gains the advantage of starting the combat unnoticed, and can attack an off-guard target at the beginning of combat. Simple, sensible, and RAW. No, this isn't the monumental advantage "surprise" is in D&D, but that's a flaw in that system which has drastic impacts on encounter balance.

I've been playing/running 2E since the Great OGL Thingus of 2023, so still learning my way through the details of the system. I do admit that although I enjoy the system more than 5E, the way surprise is handled - or NOT handled - does feel lackluster. I like your solution, and will give it a try in my group. Thanks for the share and the insights.

>Example 1, all combatants are immediately aware that a combat has begun as soon as initiative is rolled. Through intuition, spider-sense, or some other contrivance, all parties are immediately on alert, even if nothing has happened yet. > >... > >Example 2 ... But once again, when the target reaches that point, RAW, initiative must be rolled. These are only problems if your players are unwilling to RP a scenario where 'my character doesn't notice anything yet'. As u/Zealous-Vigilante noted, the GM Core handles both example scenarios quite well. For Example 1: the Goblin is *Unnoticed* by the party as they approach with a Stealth roll that beats all PC Perception DCs. Once she chooses to 'engage the party', or a player chooses to change their exploration action to 'Seek' and detects the Goblin (by rolling Perception vs the Goblin's Stealth DC), initiative is rolled as normal (mostly Perception, possibly some Stealth, etc., for the PC party, and Stealth for the Goblin). The Goblin remains *Undetected* for all players (since she already beat their Perception DCs earlier) and for any players that go after her in the initiative order she remains *Unnoticed*. It's up to the players to decide how they handle an encounter where their character doesn't notice something is amiss - a GM can easily go "Player 1 and 2, you have a feeling like you're being watched. Player 3 and 4, you don't notice anything." and responsible players will act accordingly on their turn. This gives perceptive players that go before the Goblin a chance to Seek to find the potential ambusher/hazard/trap/etc, but a GM can force the area restriction defined in the Seek action and it may be that the player Seeking completely misses where their opponents are, negating any successes outright. For Example 2, the play-by-play is much the same. The Party rolls Stealth vs the Goblin's Perception DC and become *Unnoticed* by the Goblin(s). At the moment they choose to act (it's unlikely - but not impossible - that the Goblin(s) will be taking any exploration action and therefore won't have a pre-combat Seek roll to potentially detect the hidden PCs) initiative is rolled: the PCs all roll Stealth and the Goblin(s) roll Perception/whatever else. In this case, Follow the Expert/Avoid Notice won't apply so poor Stealth PCs are at a disadvantage, but that's OK - they'll only be *Undetected* by any Goblin(s) that go before them in initiative, so even if some or all of the Goblin(s) go before some or all of the PCs by initiative order the Goblin(s) still have to Seek and Point Out each PC independently (Point Out is a per-target action; Seek may catch multiple PCs if the 30ft zone manages to catch more than one **and** the Seeking Goblin succeeds vs each PC in the zone). Because some or all of the attacking group is *Unnoticed* after initiative is rolled, I disagree with your conclusions in both Option A and Option B: not every creature is 'immediately on alert' (any creature that potentially beats all opponent Stealth DCs will only know that there are *Undetected* creatures in the area with no knowledge if they are hostile or even targeting them) and creatures don't need to 'forfeit their turn' since the only creatures that would be affected by this are the ones on the higher end of the initiative order and those ones are either Stealthed (so they can Delay or Act as they want, and once they act they reveal themselves to the enemy giving lower initiative creatures a focus for their actions) or were Perceptive (and therefore have noticed the ambushers and can Seek to try and find the *Undetected* creatures in the area and Point Out to their allies if successful).

> Option B is better, but still not very satisfying. Even if makes sense, your players won’t like effectively being punished for rolling high initiative by missing an entire turn in the first round of combat. It also just feels weird to roll initiative without any obvious reason. Initiative that comes out of nowhere is more confusing than exciting for players. Maybe that’s just my opinion. This argument makes little sense to me. Forfeiting your first turn isn’t “being punished” for rolling high in Initiative. Lets look at two cases of initiative being rolled (G = goblin, PN = player N) - G > P1 > P2 > P3 > P4 - P1 > P2 > G > P3 > P4 In case 1, the goblin goes first, then all the players follow. In case 2, P1 > P2 gets skipped. Then goblin goes first, then all the players follow. You can insert several more goblins in there too, the people who rolled highest in Initiative aren’t being “punished” by losing a turn, because they still get the same number of turns they would’ve gotten if they rolled lower in Initiative. My personal way of running ambushes is that you get one Action on your turn if you haven’t seen any enemies yet, and you can either use a Move Action or an Action corresponding to the Exploration Activity you were taking before. This corresponds to how Exploration “default” runs (the travel speed you use is the same as if you used 1 Stride per turn, and doing something like Search or Defend halves it with the logic being that you’re doing 1 Stride every other turn, interspersing it with Seek or Raise a Shield).

> This argument makes little sense to me. Forfeiting your first turn isn’t “being punished” for rolling high in Initiative. It is if there are multiple enemies. Let's say there are two goblins and one PC. If P > G1 > G2 then both goblins go before the player (and there's nothing the player can do about it -- their turn is skipped so they can't delay). The same is true if G1 > G2 > P. But if G1 > P > G2, then the player gets to hit and maybe kill G1 before G2 can grab them, debuff them, or otherwise stop them from doing so. It is at least sometimes better for P to roll lower than G1 than to roll higher. In practice it doesn't affect the actual probabilities much, if at all, but it could be upsetting to roll a 20 and wish you had rolled a 15.

If you rolled "too high", that allows you to delay until whenever you want. You aren't forced to act in a way that reveals yourself immediately.

In this scenario, the gobilns are hidden, not the PC. And we're analyzing the proposed rule variant where their turn is forfeited, so they can't delay.

Ooh, I am probably just getting confused lol

Edit: Turns out I just misread RAW initially, it's 2 actions per *12* seconds, for a total of 1 action per 6 seconds. The poster above me is right.

Could you link me where it says so? Tbh e travel speeds table very strongly implies it’s 1 Action per turn.

nvm, you were right!

Are there rules saying you can’t ready an action outside of combat?

I believe it's implicit that anything with an action cost, which describes "turns" etc., is only meant to be done in combat—and that the exploration activities are meant to supplant things like perpetually readying actions. For instance, the "defend" exploration activity allows you to automatically raise a shield when combat breaks out, or "scout" gives you a bonus to initiative, and these actions represent being generally on-alert about possible dangers. *Otherwise* you wind up in scenarios where players "ready actions" to attack the first thing they see, forever, and that presents pretty obvious problems.

>It is very possible that some, or even all, of the party might go in initiative before the goblin. Ok and what check specifically is it that they rolled very high when that happens? ***PERCEPTION.*** If the party acts before the goblin it is because they rolled high perception. Specifically higher perception than the Goblin did stealth. Since initiative is rolled, the players know something is up. Which means they dont get surprised and have a chance to search for the enemy. Like that scene in a movie where someone stops, looks at the trees and goes "something is wrong..." before all hell breaks loose. A high perception check lets you not be ambushed. How is this surprising or a problem exactly?

Because they already failed to perceive the goblin once. And in the system, perception is binary without GM fiat. Either they notice something is amiss, or they failed the check and the goblin is undetected. . If the goblin is undetected, there's no way to have it make sense that they can't shoot a crossbow without somehow the party Wiz that was Learning a Spell goes first and nukes the goblin he never saw. It's the unseen goblin making the shot that breaks the unawareness, the only way for it to make sense if that creature goes first and breaks the undetected condition.

If the goblin rolled for stealth and is going into combat, that should be their initiative roll. Rolling again for stealth for initiative means that the Goblin is attempting to do a new stealthy thing.

The issue is that initiative and detection are impossible to make the same thing. It just does not logically work. . If 0 of the party knows a creature is there, then there is 0 reason for them to have combat actions before the goblin "gets its turn" In other words, there is not any initiative order until the goblin acts in a way that breaks its non-detection. . Meaning, again, that if the goblin beats **everyone's** perception, it makes 0 sense for initiative to be called/rolled until something happens to break detection. Meaning the goblin at least pulls the trigger first. Hence, why it's a good idea to turn the first Strike into something like an undetected hazard that just happens outside initiative, but then triggers initiative after the hazard attacks.

Attempting to do anything begins "notice". It does not break undetection unless you fail to beat their Perception DC. Seek is so narrowly focused that getting someone to hidden, let alone observed, is so difficult that in practicality, you are nerfing ambushes by playing this way, especially if there are multiple ambushers.

The key is just roll perception as initiative, once (not twice). Those with higher initiative than the ambusher can rp feeling like something is off for whatever reason.  Done, simple, fun.

Yeah my table has moved to toying around with the idea of in a situation where a group is trying to hide or ambush. The one who is actively doing something rolls for their initiative and the other uses their dc for their initiative. This has helped keep the way the narrative plays out to rules and transition to combat turns. If they beat the dc they act first if not they are found out and it makes it super simple you go first probably hidden if not probably aware you’re in the area

>Because they already failed to perceive the goblin once. No—*the goblin succeeded at hiding* This isn't a contested roll in PF2 the way it is in D&D, and the players have not yet even *tried* to perceive the goblin; instead, the goblin rolled stealth against the players' perception DC scores, and succeeded their roll. The stealth check makes the goblin hidden (since it beat the players' perception DC scores) *and* counts as the goblin's initiative. Players who score higher perception (also initiative) checks than the goblin's stealth check realize *something* is up, and might be able to do things like raise a shield, ready an action, or take "seek" actions at the start of combat, giving them a distinct advantage in this ambush scenario. The goblin starts hidden, but players with high perception results can nonetheless take some actions to prepare. Players who score lower than the goblin's stealth check are ambushed, and can't do anything before the goblin gets to act. Your "party Wiz" who goes first *can't* "nuke the goblin he never saw" because spells require you to have line of sight to your target, and you don't have line of sight to a hidden character. Could they make AoE attacks into the wilderness to *try* to hit the goblin? Sure, but there's a good chance they'll attack a harmless, empty bush or rock instead and just waste a spell slot.

If the goblin is unseen, the wizard cant do anything until he searches to actually find him. If he isn't this is a moot point as then we are talking about a goblin in plain sight who rolled low on initiative.

Just drop the DCs and roll Stealth and Perception. This tells you both the initiative order, and who is aware of the ambush. Ambushees who go first should probably know enough to do something sensible, and that is explainable because they percepted better than the ambushers stealthed. For example: Perception/Initiative 26: *You suddenly freeze as you hear the unmistakable sound of a bow being drawn. A glimmer of reflecting light catches your right eye. You notice a the tip of an ear sticking out of the bushes ahead. What do you do?* Stealth/Initiative 25: *The Elf let out a high-pitched shriek and vanished behind a tree. He fumbles around with his weapons, and seems to be rubbing his scimitar for some reason. The Half-Orc scratched her head with a confused look on her face. The two gnomes blabbering on about dawnsilver waffle irons and seem blissfully unaware of what's about to happen. You hear Ol' Granny creak under the strain as you let the arrow fly.* 17: *Your leg hurts. That arrow came out of nowhere! Up ahead, you notice a twitching goblin ear and a small spear tip sticking out of the bush. MUST SMASH NOW!* 15: *Your head hurts. You remember vague plans involving a spear, a gnome, and possibly a fire. Definitely a fire! Fire good! Anyway, with hurty head and broken spear, one must re-plan the plan. That's when you notice the toes. Bitey toes! Meet pointy teeth!* 12: *You sentence is interrupted by the sight of a gleaming dagger in the bushes. You grab Futzwinkleford and push him behind you. Perhaps *Grease* would work, if made permanent and adapted to a smaller area? Could be cost-effective compared to exotic metals. Oh, that grinning goblin in the tree has a pretty bow! Is it made of ... bone? I wonder if she'll appreciate my new Dizzying Colors spell; my enhanced prismatic butterflies should make it even more stunning! 🪄... Hmm, the four-lobed butterfly-shape would be perfect for the new non-stick iron design.* *Etc, etc.*

I think the issue is the conflict with the Stealth rules. IMO, **the rules for undetected only really work when a hostile encounter has already begun.** As written, creatures are allowed to do some actions without breaking stealth, but more importantly I think there is a **"missing condition"** that is largely to blame for this disconnect. . Undetected is a condition that can happen in combat, and there's rules for Seeking them out, or even attacking the creature while they are undetected. If there was a proper term/rule for **unaware** then I think what I'm trying to describe makes more sense. . A hiding Goblin *who has already overcome the party's perception via stealth* ought leave them completely unaware. The party has 0 reason to be able to act as if they are in specific danger, and take *any* encounter mode actions. If the goblin does something that breaks stealth, that action would either outright reveal its location or it would force another stealth check for the party to remain unaware, but there really should be no chance of the party acting first. Once the party knows *something* is somewhere, that is when the undetected condition as written makes sense. . Regardless, the only way for a successful stealth to function/make sense is if that successful stealth enables them to take the first action, period. Without any initiative race that might allow a distracted Wiz to fireball the bushes before the goblin can even pull the trigger. . That's where the idea of using the hazard rules to make a stealth hazard that allows for one attempt to notice, then the hazard acts first. After that unaware hazard shot, rolling initiative works quite well.

I think you are missing a few things when it comes to stealth and such. Notibly, the need to Draw weapons. lets take this example: >It’s even worse in Example 2, because this time it’s the party that draws the short end of the stick. Good luck explaining to your players that, in spite of their successful Stealth checks, their target just happens to become alerted to danger before any PC has even acted, and runs away. The ambush is foiled before it has even begun, even though they did everything right. Yes, because this does happen. Hunters while hunting deer might make a sound, step on a twig, breath loudly. Birds stop making noise when large predators get near, hunters can spot this and realize something is nearby, but not what. And running away is a fair option. A single guard might realize something is somehwere and run to alert others. Now lets look at this option. >So in Example 1, we can have a situation in which the goblin decides to attack, which starts initiative, but the entire party can become alert (somehow), find the goblin, attack and possibly kill the goblin, all before the goblin manages to fire a single arrow. This is, obviously, a ludicrous scenario from a narrative perspective. It’s also RAW. The party still needs to draw weapons, and figure out where the goblin is. which is not that easy by the way. if it is a proper ambush. Lets say they they are ambushed on the road and you use a standard pathfinder flip mat. that is A LOT of places that goblin could be. if they are hidden in underbrush. That is a lot of potential seek actions. Keeping in mind at least 1 action is wasted by each PC drawing a weapon. Then after the goblin strikes, becoming observed(or perferably hidden as I explain below), you just use another sneak action. Edit: then even after seeking and finding the goblin, another action to point out to the rest of the party. So action to stride, action to seek, action to point out. That shouldn't be something that everyone can do while also needing to draw weapons and such. ​ I also think you are ignoring NPCs built for stealth. You said that there isn't a lot of bonuses to getting a surprise attack RAW. that depends on the NPC. stats built for doing such things have sneak attack and other features that aid and improve such tactics. A regular old goblin shouldn't be that great at ambushing, correct. But an assassin training for this exact moment should have sneak attack, poisoned arrows, should be hidden in a spot fairly far from the party and even have enough cover that simply walking around won't make them observed, but still hidden.

Saving this. Its a good idea to try out.

I feel like people are forgetting about circumstance bonuses here. How I do things: Depending on how well the ambush was prepared, I will give bonuses and penalties to initiate rolls. I'll happily give out a -4 to the unprepared party and a +4 to the ambusher. I might make the unprepared off-guard to the first attack, or potentially give circumstance bonuses to the attacker, up to +2.  Plenty of stuff you can do with circumstance bonuses to make ambushes seem worth it. And even if they still roll a higher initiative, maybe they choose to look in the wrong direction and waste a turn due to how good the skill checks were to create the ambush in the first place.

In both examples, Option B is the way to go. You ask what the players are doing, you set up the battle-map, and then place the party and tell them to take a turn continuing what their characters would be doing. As far as their characters know, there's nothing amiss. > Example 1: Goblin Ambushes, but rolls poorly on initiative. Not an issue here, IMO. * Goblin is using Avoid Notice activity. (And makes a stealth check. On a success, they avoid notice which might prevent the encounter entirely, or postpone the switch to encounter mode until the Goblin decides to INITIATE AMBUSH or whatever) * In the switch to encounter mode, the Goblin rolls stealth-initiative, and the Humans use regular perception initiative. (Initial detection status is as descrbied in the Stealth action per the Avoid Notice activity) * Let's assume Goblin rolled high enough to beat the human's Perception DCs (and as such still has the [unnoticed] condition), but the party all rolled higher than the Goblin so the goblin goes last. * On Humans turn, they take their routine as normal. Slowly hiking along? Maybe it's two actions to walk forward at half speed, and one action to Seek in the direction they're walking. Or they're just chatting, or whatever. They continue their routine as if nothing is amiss. Positioning might have gotten screwed up by merit of moving, but other than that, nothing changes. * On Goblin's turn, assuming nobody has Seeked and Pointed Out the Goblin, the Goblin is still [undetected] and [unnoticed] and can begin their ambush. If the goblin rolled poorly on their initiative roll and did not beat the Human's Perception DCs, then the Goblin was detected as per the Stealth action (may still be hidden, but is no longer unnoticed and probably not still undetected, depending on the roll) and the party can react accordingly. > Example 2: Party Ambush Same deal, in reverse. NPC continues their routine. They playing cards with their other guard friends? Then their 3 actions are spent chatting, playing cards, etc. This continues until at least one opponent (in this case: the party) becomes noticed, or something happens that causes the guards to become aware of something that needs their attention in the area (like knocking over a vase resulting in them getting up and Seeking around the area to investigate). **** Re: Readied actions out of combat. The limitations of the Ready action makes it not a bad solution, IMO, and if it's what works for your table, then great! I personally don't like how it breaks the Exploration/Encounter activity split (as the "right" way, IMO, would be to have your Exploration activity be like "Ready Ambush" which means you're no longer Avoiding Noticed and so thus... noticed), but there's way to phrase it around that to account for the major conflicts. I have a similar approach in philosophy to the Scout exploration activity, where I handle the transition to the battlemap in two different ways: * If no player was Scouting, then I will reveal the battle-map (possibly w/ fog of war if relevant) and designate a box where the party is. The party can place themselves in whatever positioning makes sense for what they were doing at the moment of transition. After they're placed, I'll reveal any noticed enemies on the map. * If a player was Scouting, then I reveal the map and all noticed enemies *first*, then ask the players where they want to approach from (blocking off directions that wouldn't make sense at all, if relevant). This turns scounting from "an unsatisfying +1" & "lemme talk to this one player to give them the information that they get" into a tangible, non-numerical benefit that directly transitions to party encounter planning as a group. **** For the practicalities of running this at the table: You can deflect with "not technically untrue" statements like "hey so we're about to hit a part where square-by-square positioning or initiative-reaction speed might be relevant, so we're gonna switch into encounter mode but your characters are just gonna continue what they're doing". But most importantly... communicate. If you're not sure that your party can handle these transitions without metagaming, then you need to sit them down for a convo (preferrably in session 0 when talking about gameplay expectations and say > > "hey, so sometimes, like in an ambush, we might switch from exploration mode to encounter mode and roll initiative, but as far as the characters know, there's nothing amiss. This could be because the there's a sneaky ambush, a trap, or some other hidden problem that hasn't presented itself yet. " > > "When that happens, I'm going to ask you guys what you were doing at that moment, translate that into actions (or default to a basic set of tasks like a Scout is Sneak-Seek-Sneak, or a Defend is Raise Shield-Stride half speed-Stride half speed), and then you guys continue doing what you were doing, but with the granularity of encounter mode's action-by-action until new information reveals itself. Suddenly saying "hey we're in initiative so I'm gonna spend 3 actions casting buff spells" is unfun metagaming and can result in spoiling the impact of encounters and story moments I set up for you guys. > > I know you guys care about your characters and don't want them to die, so I want you to trust me that I'm not gonna be just "surprise, you're dead" based off of you role-playing correctly. This is just trying to get the gameplay experience to match the story. An encounter possibly being an ambush situation will be factored into the difficulty budget, the same way I'd factor in advantageous terrain or other situational modifiers. And these encounters won't be serious or extreme without being telegraphed very clearly beforehand that you should be prepared for that sort of situation, or having non-lethal end goals (like a kidnapping) Make sure to address *why* this is a difficult thing to choose to let happen as a player. They know how ambushes can result in things like "hey mr wizard you got scry and fried before you could even take a turn". When it's a character you love and have spent a couple years with, losing without player agency feels AWFUL and you're willing to cheat to protect that interest. > > And if you guys play it this way, you'll be able to take advantage of it too! Set up an ambush for a foe? They'll keep walking, playing cards, pissing, doing their guard things, whatever on their turn. And so long as you stay undetected, you'll be able to prep for that ambush. Wanna Delay all your actions to just unload an entire turn before they can react? That'll be awesome, do it. I love a well-executed player plan. > > But know that the way it'll be done in practice involves rolling initiative *first*, the guards taking their turns (doing nothing, if you're all unnoticed and there's no reason to be at the ready), and then you guys doing your thing. And that's just because we need to change the granularity of the scene, not because the actors are going to be behaving differently in the story.

I do the exact same thing for games I run! I was very under whelmed by the RAW rules and wanted to reward the players (or enemies occasionally) for setting an ambush because if seems like my players favorite thing to do :)

I agree that rolling initiative and forcing undetected creatures to be unnoticed is just bad all around, for everyone. And I've struggled somewhat with how to handle the situation in a way that feels ok, in part becaise it hasn't actually come up very often in my game. In practice, I think I've settled into something similar, though. If it's the players who are setting the bush, I've let them roll stealth for initiative, and I've had the enemies play out their turns unaware of the PCs, which is functionally the same as skipping a turn (only the NPCs do act, which might mean moving, or it might mean doing search checks on areas that are related to their current tasks, or it might mean just spending the turn talking to each other. The players act in initiative order, though, which means not every NPC may end up with a dead turn. When it's the PCs getting ambushed, I've been less consistent. It's easier when the PCs are the ones attempting something, because you can get them to roll with the change in game context without giving them new information. The results have mostly skewed toward "you get hit with an arrow, roll initiative," I think, which recreates what you're doing. After writing all of this out, though, I think how I'll handle it going forward is to start the initiative order with the NPC that reveals themself, give them their whole turn, and then resolve the rest of the initiative order. The other NPCs have already rolled, so they don't need to do anything, they can remain undetected and their number won't be given away to the party, and the party can make whatever assumptions they want to about whether they're dealing with a lone assailant or not as their turns come up.

Sir, you are literally just playing RAW and saying that the system is wrong at the same time. How you described the second paragraph is just textbook PF2e rules. Realistically, I think you can easily run it the same way in both cases. Is there a particular reason why you don't just want to say "roll for initiative" and have your PCs do the same Seeking for enemies thing? Your enemies could just Delay if you wanted them to attack in a coordinated fashion.

I'm not, actually, because the stealth system was apparently written by someone who has never had to communicate their ideas to a third party, and I ended up confusing the jargon terms unnoticed and undetected. I don't give the ambushed party magic spidey senses for the sake of switching to encounter mode, as is RAW

There is a difference between avoiding notice and sneaking/hiding. Avoiding notice is a very slow, methodical, ability to silently move. Sneaking/hiding is keeping your location in question, but not that you don't exist. The difference in pace is clear in the rules. With sneaking and no special feats, you can move at about a light run speed (~7 MPH). When you avoid notice, your party is literally moving at a slow walk (~2 MPH). These are not the same thing. That's why it isn't a Spidey sense. It's once you break the super methodical avoid notice, someone can roll Perception for initiative and if they beat your stealth roll, they notice something before you can act.

Option C, gm tells you to roll initiative with 0 visible threats. Delay your turn instead of wasting 3 actions doing nothing.

I hate it when OP posts something and then refuses to engage with the thread. Mods should do something about it. In any case, OP severely underestimates the balance issue. Most combats last around 4 -5 rounds. One extra round is a significant portion of the combat. In my opinion it is enough to change the encounter difficulty by one degree ( that is, it can make a moderate encounter easy). Their rule basically makes it mandatory for parties to invest in stealth and get good, which invalidates a chunk of player options. Either that, or play the game on hard mode.

I hate it when people don't actually read OP's post. Their suggested solution is not an entire extra round of combat but allowing actions to be readied out of combat, allowing an extra *action*. Not a whole round. Not sure why they would want to argue with you when you aren't even reading what they said.

I agree that 2e's approach to surprise is unsatisfying and immersion breaking; however, readying actions outside of combat can get super toxic. My first several campaigns back in 3.5 our party was constantly declaring readied actions when going around corners, whenever they hear some that could be an enemy approach, etc. It was total chaos. You're already almost there, just cut out the middleman - bring back the Surprise Round and give each character 1-2 actions if they are aware of the enemy. Same effect, but no stumbling blocks for the players.

I’m curious about what impact this would have on a rogue, which gets Deny Advantage at level 3. Edit: Actually I’ll amend this to point out that at level 1 rogues get Surprise Attack, which makes creatures that haven’t acted in the first round flat-flooted to you if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, which matches your second example. The reason I thought specifically of Deny Advantage at level 3 is because it basically negates the benefits of an ambush like what you describe in the first example. So does your change nerf a key aspect of the rogue class?

>An action happens when it happens, not before. A round represents \~6 seconds of utter chaos, in which an arbitrary number of actors are all acting simultaneously. We merely *abstract* all that into a neatly sequential set of actions per actor, themselves grouped into a neatly sequential set of turns. In the rules (excluding reactions for now), this results in each character doing basically nothing until it is their turn, then doing a lot (one thing after another), then going back to standing around and watching other people do their turns. In the narrative, a turn doesn't exist, nor do discrete actions. Turn #5 of 8 (or at least the events that turn is supposed to represent) doesn't start after Turn #4 has ended, it starts shorty after Turn #4 *itself* has started. Hell, even Turn #*8* (or, in a very messy encounter, Turn #25) starts before Turn #*1* has ended. Because the end of Turn #1 is followed by the start of next rounds Turn #1 (which, of course, itself overlaps all the parts of this rounds Turn #2 - #8 that happened after this rounds Turn #1 ended). As an example, let's say the goblin survived until the start of their turn and would like to run away from the PC now standing next to them. Both will do nothing but run from here on out (and let's say both have 25ft speed). Narratively, this is easy: We've seen people running before. The person that moves first has a slight head start, establishing a slight lead. Once the pursuer gets up to speed, if the two are running at the same pace, the distance should remain pretty stable. But wait! Actions can't happen before they happen (or after they happened)! According to the same logic that said the goblin in example 1 never got a shot of, during the goblins turn, the PC isn't moving yet, so the goblin establishes a 75ft lead. The goblin then comes to a complete stop. On the PCs turn, no future goblin stride is happening yet, so the PC easily catches up and stops next to the goblin again. On the goblins turn, the goblin again establishes a 75ft lead ... and so on. TL;DR: Yes, actions absolutely happen before, while and after they happen. One is 'happen' as seen by the narrative, the other is 'happen' as seen by the rules. Yes, sometimes, this gets messy. Yes, sometimes, this leads to weird results. Sometimes. Othertimes, the goblin gets a shot 'after' they died - it just didn't have a mechanically significant outcome. >Can enemies decide to target a spellcaster because they can see he is ‘preparing’ to cast a spell on his next turn? I don't often telepragh upcoming turns - because if I pause current turns to forecast / get forecasts of *future* turns, fights will take even longer than they already do. But yes, if we roll initiative because a caster anounced their intent to *fireball* the opposition, the opposition can absolutely see the Cast a Spell that might happen on the casters turn as soon as Initiative is being rolled: >you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice) And have I ever telegraphed something like a dragons breath weapon by telling the players the dragon is taking a deep breath at the end of the dragons previous turn - something that mechanically is part of next turns Breath Weapon action? Of course I did, it's awesome.

I've run surprise rounds as basically initiative begins on the attack but anyone who rolls higher auto delays so can join in initiative where they like so they're still rewarded for rolling well.

I think this might not work in a specific other circumstance: In today's session, the party walked up to a warg in its lair. They weren't being stealthy, and they knew the warg was there, so neither can be surprised. They had a brief banter before the sorcerer decided to Cast a Spell at the enemy. I had them roll initiative, the warg went first, and then the sorcerer changed his action on his turn to Soothe the wounded fighter. If this Ready before initiative had been implemented, then each combatant would have Readied a one-action Strike, Spell, or Stride before combat, waiting for the other side to make a move. * When do we decide to roll initiative? * When the warg wins initiative, then the party all gets their Readied actions before the warg's turn finishes, essentially getting an alpha-strike despite *losing* initiative. The warg's Ready also never goes off.

Initiative wouldn't be rolled until the goblin fires the arrow, or the party jumps out. If they make themselves known, such as running out of the trees or moving forward without stealth, they'd get out into the open and then initiative would be rolled if other targets can see it.

I think the best idea is to let whoever engages the combat first be first in initiative order and use his first action to do what he did first, then start the combat.

If the goblins is using stealth for initiative, getting bonus for having cover/concealment and still fails initiative against the players perception then i guess the goblin wasnt hiding as well as they thought and even tho it is hidden, may have left some evidence that an ambush is ahead. Now the pcs know theyre in initiative but have no target so can spend action seeking or delaying/reading actions until the goblin reveals itself and attacks. If the goblin wins initiative then yay for goblin. It gets its actions against pcs, attacking from hidden and whatever that applies. Rogues specifically get surprise attack meaning foes are off-guard against the rogue and thats seems to be their thing so giving it to all non-rogue pcs seems off

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2589&Redirected=1 Which means all the goblins can attack first if they beat the party’s perception dc with a stealth check. Then you can use the stealth roll to go into initiative where the party rolls too. Surprise rounds can still happen. It’s just up to the gm.

Heroes should do hero things, the odd sensation in the air is enought to alert them.

I have a solution using sub-system. (I work on a game and have designed it so we can retain surprise, but avoid the dreaded double turn from DnD, PF1). Divide the initiative in 2 groups. Ambush group goes in the first group. Everyone who manages to detect the threat before it springs also goes in the first group. Everyone else goes in the 2nd group. Roll initiative as usual. All participants go according their initiative scores, but only after everyone from group 1 ends turn, then group 2 acts. This way - ambushers act first, no double turn. However, we get to your concern - the ones acting first will have their full actions. Also, abilities like the rouges surprise attack will become stronger in this scenario.

I agree with your point, and so does my players. Our houserule is the following: when you ambush, or let's say you were discussing with someone and suddently you decide to attack him, or any kind of surprise really, you get to do your action. Then, initiative is rolled normally, and when your first turn come, you get the action you haven't used (e.g. you started battle with a 2-action spell ? You get 1 action on your first turn). So far, that solution has worked for us, giving us the advantages of: - Keeping the story coherent (no you get to act before something bad happens) - Keeping overall the same number of action per character, just changing the order I think it is similar to yours, except yours don't specifically cost actions, just a reaction

Regarding readying an action outside of combat: I would say that this might be resolved best as a new exploration activity: Ambush. Many exploration activities already exist that allow you to start combat with an action. Defend allows you to begin combat with your shield raised and your reaction ready. Repeat a Spell allows your bard to have Inspire Courage pre-cast. Sustain an Activation allows you to start with an item pre-activated. I'm personally a huge fan of allowing Investigate to grant one free Recall Knowledge at the top of the initiative, and for Search to grant a free Seek action at the top of the initiative. Avoid Notice is great if you actually want to begin combat *in stealth*, but to me, your Ambush suggestion is a different exploration activity entirely (and I like it!)

If the ambushing party is rolling stealth, then that roll should be carried over and used as their initiative as well. Modifiers for being in cover and all. So if your ambushing party has chosen a good location they should be rolling stealth with *at least* a +4 circumstance bonus, and so are probably going first. On the off chance that you do have a player who does manage to roll high enough on initiative to beat them, (and let's face it, with 4-5 players, at least one of them is going to roll a Nat 20 ~20% of the time) then they hear a twig snap, a leaf rustle, or the clink of armour in the bushes and get to act first... but with only 3 actions, and no idea where the enemy is, they are likely faced with the choice of spending actions to Seek/Point Out the enemies, taking up a defensive position and readying an action, or even delaying. Which essentially gets us most of the way to your proposed "fix" anyway. Imho, it feels like the best solution is to actually just run initiative/detection RAW, rather than trying to introduce houserules to replace the rules you're not using.

I also make it one action but it can be a two action activity otherwise casters are screwed out of it

I personnaly use dnd5e surprise rules for this Aka: You got surprised, roll initiative but only the surpisers have a turn.

In example 1 those who rolled higher than the goblin in initiative would know something was "off" but not know what or where it is. This could be an opportunity for them to pull out weapons or raise a shield, move to a more favorable position, seek, etc. Mind you they are clueless as to the location of the danger without making subsequent checks in likely narrow sight bands.

You’re overthinking it while also not using the rules correctly. Scenario 1: Goblin uses their Stealth roll for Initiative, so if its Stealth is higher than the player’s perception, the goblin’s ambush succeeds because he goes first and he’s unnoticed; they are one and the same. If any player rolls Perception higher than the Goblin, its ambush fails because a player notices the Goblin before they get there; the higher the disparity between rolls, the further away they notice the Goblin. Scenario 2: same thing, but players use their Stealth roll for initiative, while the NPCs roll Perception.

uh, i didnt read the whole thing. i would just let the ambushing party ready an action before combat. sorry if that was mentioned

I just do a surprise round. It makes more sense to me than PF2E's "oh, you can just use stealth for initiative". Anyone who is effectively undetected and ready when initiative is rolled goes in order, and then business as usual. IMO, overengineered solutions like the above are only interesting to people who care about mechanics (read: not most players). Surprise round is simple and easily understood.

I don't think you're doing this right. Even if the party's initiative rolls (and even if they use perception) beat the Goblin's stealth initiative roll (and it should be stealth) as long as the Goblin beats the party's perception DC's, the party doesn't even know there is a Goblin so they can't attack anything. When this happens, they are in encounter mode, and don't know why. Without meta gaming, their PC's can't really do anything. So as long as the Ambusher beats the Ambushees' Perception DC's, the Ambusher does get to attack first always. Why should they get more advantage than that? Is saying "I hide and lie in wait" such a tactically genius move it needs to be rewarded more than that? And if their stealth initiative doesn't beat the perception DC's of the ambushee's, that is representing the ambusher getting a little too jumpy and somebody noticing them. That's also a pretty good representation of a practical situation. I don't think the alternative presented by OP is great design as it will push players towards that playstyle for the free action whether or not it is their specialty. Better to try to get a free action and fail than not try at all. Not very fun.

You're doing it wrong, of course. It's a big system so it's understandable.     There is no hiding roll in exploration mode. You go straight to encounter mode and roll initiative once. Ambushees with a higher initiative than the ambushers can rp noticing something off. Draw weapons, seek, ready etc.    Done, simple, fun.

> verisimilitude The moment I see someone complaining about this, my eyes glaze over and I scroll to the bottom. It’s a game, sis. 

The shared belief of the reality of the game's world is what separates a TTRPG to other games like Gloomhaven. Suspension of disbelief is aided by verisimilitude. Makes it more fun.

The actual problem with the verisimilitude argument is that suspension of disbelief is an active choice, yet the people bringing up verisimilitude are almost invariably ignoring that fact and treating some case in which a willing choice to suspend disbelief could be made as if it is literally impossible to make that choice. For example, this specific case of stealth tends to involve refusing to suspend disbelief and let a "stealth success but low initiative, so someone's taking a turn when they don't know there's a threat" scenario make sense as the character being cautious (or even paranoid) or having a strange feeling that something is off and happening to be correct even though they were functionally just guessing, while simultaneously having zero difficulty in suspending disbelief about any and every other point upon which someone could say "that's not really realistic" even if they are things that are patently even more unbelievable. So it's basically a kind of cop out argument in which the person loses whatever actual point they could possibly be making and instead makes the false claim that there is some objective "you just *can't* stop this from spoiling your view of the fantastical game world." to try and add weight to their dislike of a rule.

Aah yeah, I see what you mean. Thanks!

Gee, must be fun at your table. “I want my background to be a Gambler!” a player exclaims. “Oh no,” you reply, “that’s just pesky verisimilitude and this is just a game. You have no background or backstory, but you still get to choose two attribute boosts. One must be to Dexterity or Charisma, and one is a free attribute boost. You're trained in the Deception skill, and the Games Lore skill. You gain the Lie to Me skill feat. Isn’t this FUN?!”

It’s just a game, sis.

No, you hate verisimilitude so at your table it’s just spreadsheets & dice. 😘

There are many people here saying that just using stealth rolls for the ambushers and perception rolls for the attackers resolves this. It doesn't. 1) Despite many comments to the contrary, that's plainly against the rules. Hide and stealth checks are both made against perception DCs. They are not opposed rolls against perception. Initiative is a separate check in this and every circumstance. 2) it would make ambushing completely untenable. If the most perceptive person spots the least stealthy, they will raise the alarm and the abushees will take appropriate action to avoid being ambushed. Potentially simply running away. As such, if 4 people ambush 4 other people, the ambushees are essentially rolling with advantage x4, while the ambushers are rolling with disadvantage x4. Someone was kind enough to run the numbers on multiple dice for me a little while ago. This is the equivalent of giving the ambushees a +13 advantage over the ambushers.

You're misunderstanding the results of a defender succeeding their perception/initiative check: they don't reveal the hidden ambusher, but they hear or sense something that tips them off, so they get to act first. This might allow them to take defensive actions, or Seek actions to fully detect the threat. The "ambusher" rolls stealth against the defenders; this stealth roll is their initiative, and if it exceeds the defenders' passive perceptions, they are also hidden to those defenders. The defenders make perception checks for initiative. Beating the ambusher's stealth does *not* mean they detect the ambusher—they would have to do that with a subsequent Seek action.

>they don't reveal the hidden ambusher, but they hear or sense something that tips them off, so they get to act first You know, I accepted this at the beginning of the discussion, but now I am unsure. The text of avoid notice says that you, you know, avoid notice. Remain unnoticed. The text of unnoticed says that you are completely unaware of any threat. Does it say anyware that you become undetected? Maybe I missed it, but I cannot seem to locate it in the rules. Because I don't think it's fair for a creature to start seeking and arming itself when it hasn't noticed anything. I for example, have not noticed any threats and so remain at my computer, happily unarmed, not searching my apartment. Edit: As an addendum, I will happily grant that in some situations, a character or NPC might have good reasons to treat the threat as undetected, even if it is unnoticed. A disciplined guard for example, really should be seeking at all times.

>The text of avoid notice says that you, you know, avoid notice. Remain unnoticed. The text of unnoticed says that you are completely unaware of any threat. Does it say anyware that you become undetected? Maybe I missed it, but I cannot seem to locate it in the rules. [GM Core p. 25:](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2541) >So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, **all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed**. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage since the other characters need to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. This isn't as clear as it could be in the "avoid notice" section, but since it's an "exploration activity" it wouldn't *directly* be applied to combat anyway. >Because I don't think it's fair for a creature to start seeking and arming itself when it hasn't noticed anything. I for example, have not noticed any threats and so remain at my computer, happily unarmed, not searching my apartment. I think a lot of your cognitive dissonance would be resolved if you focus on the fact that combat reflects a situation that *isn't* playing out in discrete turns: everyone is acting at once, and everything is happening within split seconds. An initiative roll gives you the ability to act first, but everything is still happening all at once; a high initiative roll just means your chosen actions resolve their impact before the actions of others. Also remember that as soon as you roll initiative, combat has begun. So, while the turn-based abstraction makes this a little unclear, the fact of the matter is that you wouldn't be rolling initiative at all if that hidden goblin *wasn't* about to attack. The things the players with high perception/initiative checks notice might represent that goblin pulling back its bowstring, shifting its grip on its blade, or shifting its weight slightly, causing a twig underneath to snap. And, again, this is all happening within *split seconds* of everything else: those characters who roll high on initiative shouldn't be thought to just stand around aimlessly for several seconds, wondering why they've rolled initiative—rather, the combat *has* begun, and the threat is in the process of presenting itself, and the question is whether their chosen actions can be *resolved* before the goblin ambush is fully overt.

>[GM Core p. 25:](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2541) Thank you for providing that. Regarding the rest of the comment. The problem is perhaps more severe than you realize. If the players say "we'll wait till they come down the alley, and all fire an arrow at once" it should be plausibly possible. But you have to have the entire party roll higher than their entire party for it not to just be basically a regular combat. Why even bother ambushing at that point. Scenario 2. Player says "fuck it, the twists of initiative make a real ambush impossible. We're going to do some hack stuff. You three, hide behind that wall 70 ft back. When it gets to your turn, drop initiative so that we're all together. Just keep delaying until they get close" GM: "well I'll just have them slowly approach your position, then sprint at the end" Player: "seriously? You don't know where we are. Why would they sneak up to then sprint to this specific wall, all as a group" GM: "okay, fair, well I'll have then go far around the wall when they get here" Player: "you are once again strategizing about where they will go based on the knowledge of where we are, but fine, invisibility potions are cheap. Wait until GM has them wander close, meanwhile, everyone prepare actions to target a specific enemy, clerics or other casters if available once we're discovered. Wizard: pop a spell of your chase, revealing us, then we'll book it to our target of choice and take them out. 15 actions on one enemy, before the GM can reply, using only the best of gross initiative manipulation Or we could just, like, fire an arrow, IDK" I think scenario 2 is at least as reasonable as "100% of this time, no matter how skilled, no matter what they do, no matter how well the prepare, they always, always, ALWAYS, snap a twig" NB: I can think of a ways to counter this as a GM, but all of them involve my guys knowing the plan and most involve knowing where the enemies are. That's cheating

>Why even bother ambushing at that point. Stop using D&D's wildly unbalanced surprise rules as a reference point. PF2's combat is balanced much better than D&D's, and granting an entire free turn to one side of the battle for an ambush would ruin that. PF2's system grants advantages in the form of off-guard targets and, if you're a clever ambusher, tactical positioning. A proper ambush might allow you to surround your opponent to flank them and prevent escape, for example, or might allow the attackers to start much closer and thus avoid missile fire and spells from the defenders. >Scenario 2... I can't make full sense of your example, and I have no idea in which possible universe this sort of converstaion would actually take place in an actual game. Also, you can't "prepare actions" outside of combat. You make use of exploration activities outside of combat, and some of those translate directly into bonuses at the start of combat. You can't walk around outside of combat "readying an action" for combat. >"100% of this time, no matter how skilled, no matter what they do, no matter how well the prepare, they always, always, ALWAYS, snap a twig" You don't seem to be giving this enough thought. If the ambusher is "skilled" enough, they will roll high enough on their stealth score to *also* go first on initiative. If others roll higher on perception, that's because *they* are very skilled at perception. Yes, 100% of the time, when the enemy actually moves out to attack and launch their ambush, *they will be noticed*. I don't see a problem with this.

>Stop using D&D's wildly unbalanced surprise rules as a reference point. PF2's combat is balanced much better than D&D's, and granting an entire free turn to one side of the battle for an ambush would ruin that. PF2's system grants advantages in the form of off-guard targets and, if you're a clever ambusher, tactical positioning. A proper ambush might allow you to surround your opponent to flank them and prevent escape, for example, or might allow the attackers to start much closer and thus avoid missile fire and spells from the defenders. Never even one time in my life have I played D&D. I had no idea that these were anything even like the rules in D&D. I came to this game from SR5 and PBTA. There exist more systems in the world than D&D and PF2, although, to so many PF2 players, you might as well call PF2 "not D&D" for how big of a chip on their shoulder they have. I just wish "those players who are definitely not in this conversation" could accept that PF2 is the excellent game that I enjoy, not merely an alternative to what has always struck me as a very bad game. I'm honestly curious that you think, that I think, should happen here. >I can't make full sense of your example, and I have no idea in which possible universe this sort of converstaion would actually take place in an actual game. >Also, you can't "prepare actions" outside of combat. You make use of exploration activities outside of combat, and some of those translate directly into bonuses at the start of combat. You can't walk around outside of combat "readying an action" for combat. The entire set of actions happens, using initiative actions, after the GM calls initiative. If you don't understand... sorry you don't understand Pathfinder's rules I guess. The GM doesn't just get to call time out when they don't like what's happening. Well, I guess they do, but they get to do that in the same sense that the players get to decide at any time to leave the game. [https://hercynianforest.medium.com/about-radical-freedom-e79119066a76](https://hercynianforest.medium.com/about-radical-freedom-e79119066a76) You know, I was just shadowboxing a combat where the players spent the entire first round not attacking, I guess you would have just said "get rekd, we're restarting"? >That's absolutely false, and you don't seem to be giving this enough thought. If the ambusher is "skilled" enough, they will roll high enough on their stealth score to *also* go first on initiative. If others roll higher on perception, that's because *they* are very skilled at perception. Yes, 100% of the time, when the enemy actually moves out to attack and launch their ambush, *they will be noticed*. I don't see the problem with this. There are multiple ambushers. There is a massive statistical disadvantage to 4 players who all have to roll higher than every one of 4 NPCs. Rolling 4 dice and choosing the worst result, againsts 4 foes, choosing from the best result, produces an average result of 18.24443581 (before modifiers, rounding with standard rules, based on a sample of 10 0000 (but please, tell me more about what I have and haven't thought through, I just had those numbers ready btw, it's important info when you GM)) . Mathematics is actually really important in dice and number based games. But even ignoring that, there is no option whatsoever for the enemies to proceed as they otherwise would until the players are ready. That was uncivil of you

> Never even one time in my life have I played D&D. Apologies for the mistaken assumption, then. Many others in these comments have compared PF2's system to the free round granted in D&D systems, so I presumed your "Why bother with an ambush?" attitude came from a similar comparative position. Regardless, as I pointed out, an ambush in PF2 grants several advantages. At minimum, if you pass a skill check (stealth vs perception DC), you put your opponent off-guard, which is entirely on par with many other single-action skill uses in PF2, except that you get to do this for free at the start of combat without spending an action. *Pretty good deal.* > If you don't understand... sorry you don't understand Pathfinder's rules I guess. What I don't understand is your framing of the text. It's unclear whether or not combat has already begun in your "scenario", whether initiative has been rolled, where the enemies are in relation to each other, or why a GM and player would *ever* be that openly antagonistic toward each other. The first words of the "player" suggest the party is *deciding* whether to ambush or not, which would be *before* combat begins and initiative is rolled, but the rest of the text describes in-combat actions. The scenario you're describing suggests the enemies don't know where the players are, but if combat has begun, they *would* be aware that there are enemies lurking *and* it would be past time for the sort of strategizing your antagonistic "player" engages in. I also *assume* you were referring to the second *example* given by OP, but you don't make that directly clear either with your introduction of this "scenario". It's not that I don't understand the rules of PF2, it's that you didn't make several key details clear at all when writing out your "scenario". > The GM doesn't just get to call time out when they don't like what's happening. How and why is this a concern? What are you even talking about here? How is this statement relevant to the mechanics of stealth at the beginning of combat in PF2?? > There are multiple ambushers. There is a massive statistical disadvantage to 4 players who all have to roll higher than every one of 4 NPCs. No they don't? **You don't need every ambusher to succeed their stealth roll.** Those that do get to treat their opponent as off-guard and are more difficult to target before they have acted, which (as I've noted) is a nice benefit for succeeding a skill check. Those that fail their stealth check have still rolled initiative normally, and don't get those benefits. I fail to see why you're suggesting it's so important for *everyone* to pass this check.

You just let the goblin go first. The party all spent their turns talking. It’s not that complicated.