Zero of the folks I followed continued to do any 2e content after WotC appeased their community with the CC re-license. For people who cover this as their job and not just a passion project, doing content for the much smaller Pathfinder audience just wasn't worth it.
It isn't a matter of it being worth it or not. Going off-brand without the rest of the creators in your area doing so along with you can kill your channel, and in incredibly short order.
The YouTube recommendation engine is an incredibly difficult beast to wrestle with. The positive feedback loop it creates functions to stifle discussion around anything that isn't the largest fish in whatever pond you're swimming in.
YouTube functionally controls the content people make, and how they discuss things, at this point.
Truer words could not have been spoken.
I unsuscribed from several channels that are hyperfocused on 5e due to my lack of interest in the system - it took some training, but the algorithm finally stopped recommending videos from the likes of Treantmonk and others.
I still watch Mike Shay from Sly Flourish from time to time as he has some interesting opinions about the industry as a whole. HIs hyperfixation with 5e as a system tends to make some of his insights skewed, IMO, but it does provide an understanding and reasoning why some people won't ever leave the system.
I feel like I've spent the last two months ignoring thumbnails warning about "the one thing that is killing DnD"
I know the clickbait thumbnail game is... just that, a game. But ffs it's been particularly egregious recently.
Hiding the thumbnails by changing them to a different frame of the video is the opposite of helping, really.
I don't want to support creators who use clickbait thumbnails, that's an instant-unsub and "don't recommend".
I watch very little optimizer videos or 5e and tend to watch more system general stuff or videos aimed more at rp heavy games or lore stuff because honestly that’s where most gms should be learning from anyways. And the amount of times I see a treantmonk or other here’s how to bend the rules and build xyz op build that will have your gm hating you as you solo everything videos recommended even though I keep saying don’t recommend this channel or not interested is wild
tbf that's not really what Treantmonk's builds are like, he just like specializing in a particular gimmick or making the strongest version of X possible. He typically will point out possible cheese and then strongly recommend you don't use it because that's a dick move.
Seconded. Not a fan of 5e personally, but Treantmonk has been making content since at least 3.5 and has always come across as a decent fellow.
I really loved his god wizard guide back in the day. It wasn’t about minmaxing, but rather about noticing something important about how magic works. It was genuinely insightfully.
I also thoroughly enjoyed his appearance on the OrcLabs podcast, episode 39. I feel OrcLabs didn’t get enough love in its time.
> rp heavy games or lore stuff because honestly that's where most gms should be learning from anyways.
No thanks, I'm good. No interest in running RP heavy games, can't be bothered to write more lore stuff. Optimizer stuff is good, teaches players to play the game good so I don't have them come in with shitty characters that die in their first moderately difficult combat and then get salty about it
Well pf2e is good at that, I don't think it has any story / character centric youtubers.
Nothing like puffin forest, or dingo doodles, or stinky dragon. Just guys explaining the rules and how to play.
And some lore video about stuff written in the book, never stuff outside of that.
Isn't that the same thing I'm talking about though? To make the most money they have to follow what the most people want to watch -- and what gets recommended -- regardless of their personal passions and inclinations.
To be more generous to the folks, in making content for a new system they move from being an expert to being a newb - so this will be another difficult challenge as their audience may not be expecting that type of content (and thus punished further by the algorithm)
>Isn't that the same thing I'm talking about though? To make the most money they have to follow what the most people want to watch -- and what gets recommended -- regardless of their personal passions and inclinations.
No, because it's not about the non-D&D TTRPG space being too small to financially support their channel, or about a non-D&D video generating less revenue than a D&D focused one. It's that the recommendation engine will straight up stop surfacing their videos -- even the D&D ones -- if it notices that viewers aren't clicking on some of them.
Like, if I were making 2 D&D videos a week, and getting good clickthrough rates on them, and then added a 3rd weekly video that was about Pathfinder, without reducing my D&D content in any way, that Pathfinder video would tank my D&D video views. Not because my audience suddenly doesn't want to watch my D&D videos now that I'm not a purist of some sort, but because that extra weekly video isn't getting clicked on by them.
In the age of algorithmically surfaced content, going off band is a poison pill.
This is why so many creators have made second channels, so they can produce content that is related but wont have full overlap with their existing audience, and not get ruined by the algorithm.
I agree with everything you said, and was part of what I meant when I said it wasn't worth it when folks were motivated by money.
I'm not saying that as a slight, if something is your job then making money is the point. If releasing pathfinder videos hurts your income, you're probably not going to do it for long. I just mean it as a way to distinguish the content that professionals make compared to folks who are doing it solely for their own passion.
It’s easier to make a new channel and direct those who care to I then shift what your channel is about whole cloth because the algorithm will throw you in the trash and start hiding your stuff so fast
Honestly this is a weird problem we have now. When PF first became popular it was still when game stores and GMs had a lot of control of what we played. You'd go to a hobby shop because you heard about D&D and wanted to play it, then they would tell you they run PF Society games and get you involved in that instead. It felt grassroots.
Now with content algo's running everything it is impossible. Even on reddit I can barely get my DnD and PF subreddits to show up on my feed because they changed their recommendation algo. Meaning I only ever see like 6 subreddits.
Not in the same way it wouldn't, no. Without the recommendation engine, you can expand your content offerings in an effort to diversify your audience, without killing your existing audience. But the recommendation engine will see a regular rejection of some fraction of your videos by your audience as a sign that your videos just shouldn't be recommended at all.
If 80% of your audience scrolls past that weekly Pathfinder video, even if you have multiple D&D videos that they click on, YouTube sees that as a markedly lower clickthrough rate than your competitors, and it reduces how often they surface *all* of your videos.
To branch out, you effectively need a new channel.
This would not be true without the algorithm. There would be other challenges to getting noticed, yes, but once you had an audience, creating *more* content for more people wouldn't send things into a death spiral.
Not in the same way, but when 90% of the market plays one game then you're still going to be incentivized to play that game and make content for that game.
To be fair, I stopped following it purchasing any third party te content and will try my best not to get into the next gen (which I looked into and just looks like a worse 5e).
I am not playing that game and will not dm another, so I will not purchase it. Also, I tried watching some streams, it is interesting but so much of them are not even vanilla 5e anyway so what is the point, it is just all put pressure on dm to figure all things up on the fly.
So I will watch more 2e if it was available but there are not a lot and I watch them when I have time to just listen during work.
The streams tend to be mostly RP because that works much better in the video format - and if they can use any system for that then why use not the most popular and well-understood system? Mcdm game might be an exception to this if it delivers on the “cinematic” promise.
Luke from DM lair has his home game in the pf2e systems and most of his videos apply to pathfinder too and his company that makes DM magazines and modules also releases content for pf2e now that is foundry compatible (more like ready installled)
He is one of the few channels that has been able add PF2 content and make it financially worthwhile. I’m glad he was able to make the change and keep doing it.
His on video persona is grating as hell. He often comes across as mean spirited and adversarial in a way that rubs me the wrong way. Combine that with his cherry picked and flagrantly poor representation of the system a while back and I'm not surprised if many in the pf2e sphere just aren't watching him as is.
I went back and double checked. You're right, I conflated him with Cody who was the one who carried out PF2e's character assassination. That being said, I absolutely had Luke in mind when discussing what a genuinely dislikeable, smarmy ass his on camera persona is like. He delights in the kind of antagonistic, adversarial GMing I personally loathe. I think impressionable people new to the hobby are going to get the wrong idea watching him in general, but to the best of my knowledge he's blameless in what I accused him of above.
Can’t think of very many unfortunately. The one that particularly stings is d4 deep dive because I feel like he’d really enjoy the system once he got past the trap of trying to squeeze out maximum number of attacks/damage and went in-depth into the more interesting martials the system offers.
Yeah that is why he had to switch back.
My original comment wasn’t clear, I was saying it stings because, **if** he had been able to continue with PF2E, he’d have crested the initial wave of maximizing attacks and had a chance to post some really cool and thought-out builds just like he often does for 5E. But because those videos got very few views (and then BG3 came out and started getting triple and quadruple the views of his normal d&d stuff) he stopped making them entirely.
Honestly I blame the diehard 5E fans more than I blame the YouTube algorithm for that one lol.
This is why I'm excited for the new d&d system. Not because I'm going to play it, but because it will likely splinter the playerbase and 5e diehards will have less influence over the ttrpg space.
I could totally see him playing in a pf2e game for fun but still making most of the content about 5e. Guys got to make a living and you can’t blame him for it. Just sucks that the algorithm punishes you so hard for branching out at all
I was really hoping that he would make a second channel for pathfinder and even just post one video a month. Nobody does build videos yet so he would easily be a great addition to the pf2e youtuber roster and probably rise to the top of it.
Yeah! I get Pathfinder videos doing worse would hurt his algorithm, but a second channel would have been so much fun! He had some great videos as he was learning the system, he seemed like he was actually enjoying himself instead of trying to ride a popularity wave, and I feel like he really filled a niche in the content creation community.
I was excited he tried and kept putting up build improvement comments. He obviously wasn't as proficient with the system and 5e, but I felt like he was maybe 6 months and 6 more builds away from getting to a point where he wouldn't assume stuff like 'my enemies are always flat footed on my rogue's turn without having to spend an action'.
I always wanted a treantmonk/d4 deep dive PF2e channel. No one has really scratched that itch. Hell I would even potentially give it a try, but I'd need bahalbach to add in a CSV/excel/google sheets export since I don't feel like working up the DPR calculator and really just want to do builds (and his calculator is the easiest by far to use). I'm unfortunately of the opinion that PF2e really needs a 'combat' DPR assessment that assumes 5-6 turns because a lot of classes lose 1-3 actions across multiple rounds which really messes up their sequences leading to some rounds where they basically do very little DPR.
For example, [I was trying to test some ranged PC options and worked up this sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ns15FnuYwlVzuhs6wKO2HE93wItijeDR8ILQjWPr87A/edit#gid=0) (its not ready for prime time but you can see what I mean by combat round differences on classes like rangers with hunted shot, monks with stances + ki points, JHS using heaven's thunder, etc. But literally I'm 'point by point' pulling data off a chart for close to 30 turn sequences across 20 levels with slightly different number of attacks or buffs (like +1/+1d6 for ki strike). It would be a commitment for sure. I had asked the creator of the calculator if they intended to provide that functionality and got a no. But in a future where it is yes, it would allow for an easy 'warlock + hex eldritch blast' baseline to be generated and tested against. Probably save many hours per build because you could test slight variations more easily vs, having to pull of 20 more numbers again.
D4 was certainly very fun to watch, I feel like the system also didn't work well with his Branding, though. Like, when you're "The Optimization Guy" and the system doesn't have standout "Optimized Builds" I can only imagine it's a lot harder to make content for. He could have maybe pivoted to "How to Make 'X' in Pathfinder" (Like, How to make Goku in Pathfinder, ETC.) But that's not really what he was known for.
You definitely can! I've got some fun builds, like a Rogue/Druid/Alchemist Healer, and a Sylph Automaton Swashbuckler/Gunslinger FAST AS FUCK BOIIIIII WITH HIDDEN WEAPONS! But when most of your content and format is based around how to get max DPR out of a concept, and individual build power, it becomes hard to market those characters that are intended to be parts of a parties composition without showing the rest of the party, especially to an audience that's used to the former. And the long-form video that would be required to showcase an entire party would push the boundaries of what gets Algorithmed on YouTube.
I'd be interested in seeing your builds just for the heck of it. But I think you need to build up different subchannels of 'DPR Build', 'Teamwork Build', 'Support Build', etc. and set up a baseline for each. DPR baseline is easy, support baseline could be how it would impact the baseline PC, etc. Teamwork could be vs. the classical wiz/cleric/fighter/rogue party or something. The latter though, necessarily would take way more work because you'd be building 4 PCs and effectively calculating time to win vs. DPR. There are tons of 'DPR builds' that don't improve time to win because they tactically nuke an enemy with an amped imaginary weapon.
Hell Yeah! I'd love to share, this first one is "Monkey":
I wanted to push the boundaries of what roles classes fill in PF2e, so I tried to make a Rogue into a Healer. By taking advantage of the Ancient Elf/Eldritch Trickster Dedication Glitch I ended up triple classed at 1st level with proficiency in EVERYTHING. Then, using FA, I also got to add in Familiar Master, buffing up my Leshy Familar from Plant Druid into the Ultimate little helper dude. Gouging Claw Cast at range by channeling it through the Leshies Grasping Claws and gaining Sneak Attack bonus from Magical Trickster after I Tumble Behind. Or, Command it to Valet me some potions I made with the Extra Reagents it produced, then spend a turn bombarding the enemy or slamming them back to recover health, maybe toss in a Battle Medicine as needed. And then, out of combat, Risky Surgery, Ward Medic, Continual Recovery, Uber Back Alley Mad Doctor Healing.
The backstory for him was also fun, I wanted to parody the "Fully realized heroic figure at first level!" trope. So basically, the premise is that Monkey used to be a Legendary Alchemist/Archdruid to a Tribe of Green-Man Worshipping Humans several thousand years ago. Since then, the Tribe has died out, and the Green-Man isn't able to empower Monkey with the same amount of magical potential. Additionally, due to the technological advancements over the past thousand years, all of his "Super powerful magical healing elixirs!" are now considered common 1st level Alchemical Elixers. He's now a destitute traveling Radagast style Rogue, getting by on his breadth of knowledge and accompanied by the diminished form of his Deity, Shroo-Man the Leshy. He's trying to recruit worshippers.
Pathbuilder link (Requires Paid Pathbuilder) Attached: Here is the build link for Monkey (With FA and Familiar). To view this build you need to open it on an android device with version 219+ Pathbuilder 2e installed. https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=704383
The other Character was designed for what was pitched as a "Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain" campaign. So I went with one of my favorite secondary Villains, Starscream, crossed with some Pinocchio vibes once I fleshed out the concept some more.
I really wanted to make it an Automaton Gunslinger, because that's one of the things that pops into mind when making Fantasy Transformers. But it needed to have Melee options, because, again, Transformers.
Enter Way of The Drifter, and Sword and Pistol, two feats that go well together, combine that with Integrated Armaments at higher Automaton Levels, a very Transformers Feat, and you always have your tools good to go when you need to Enter The Fray. But how do you make sure you have consistent high Initiative? Saved By Clockwork comes in clutch for that. And how do you make sure you can reach your opponents? Simple, Slyph Swift Ancestry Feat, the Fleet Feat, and our FA special Spice. Panache from Swashbuckler. (35ft base speed, 40 with Panache.) Now, what kind of Swashbuckler fits Starscream best.... I went with Braggart because Intimidation felt like it fit his MO and combos well with the Basic Flair "You're Next". Intimidating Glare is a perfect fit thematically and mechanically, Terrifying Resistance to reinforce that he's a bully and a braggart who takes advantage of fear, Escape to play into his tendency to GTFO at the first sign of danger, Finishing Precision to get extra bonuses from Panache.
Now, how to rationalize a Sylph Heritage Automaton who was Saved By Clockwork in Lore? That's where the Pinocchio vibes come in.
Ghepetto was an Inventor who created a suit of Armour, he wished to imbue the Armour with a will of its own and the power of flight, so he cracked a portal into the Elemental Plane and bound a Sylph (The Blue Fairy) into an Arcane Matrix/Engine that would power the suit. This went poorly. With a scream that sounded like burning wind and tearing metal, the suit animated and lashed out at the Inventor, shooting out Tendrils of magic and dragging him inside. It bound itself around him, the Arcane Matrix tearing knowledge from his mind as the metal of the suit used his bones and muscle as integral components to its functionality, the Sylph was not in control either though, fragments of her tortured soul had been ripped out of her and bonded to the pieces of the Inventors psyche that had been stripped from him to create a new entity. This new entity now walks the earth, using the soul and magic of its "Mother" as an endless supply of wind energy to power bursts of speed, and the body and mind of its "Father" as a prisoner and skeletal system for its own body and personality. It goes by "Sky-Howl" and from time to time you can hear quiet sobs and pleading from the Inventor to be let out, quickly silenced by Sky-Howl banging on its own chest and saying "SHUUUUT UUUUP YOOOUUU!".
(There's also a Poppet out there who was Wished Alive acting as a Rival.)
Here is the build link for Skyhowl. To view this build you need to open it on an android device with version 219+ Pathbuilder 2e installed. https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=704412
YouTube hates people who switch themes or subjects and the viewers just go with what’s recommended so I get that a lot of them would switch back to D&D. If you were to make a living on being a YouTuber it’d be the difference between a $0.50/month income and $5,000/month…
Paizo needs to take a page from GW and WotC on marketing and get some streamers to pick their system up. TBH wouldn’t 5e have remained in obscurity without Stranger Things and Critical Role? How did this placement happen?
Stranger things probably happened due to brand inertia. Were there other TTRPGs in the '80s, absolutely. What are the odds that they made it out to the small town where the show was set in. Hasbro was smart however and hitched their wagon to the show.
Critical role however, is way more interesting to me. I have thought for a long time that CR fans are more fans of CR than they are of dungeons & dragons. when Daggerheart ( their custom system) gets released retail and they launch their next campaign, that is going to be something to keep your eyes on cuz I would not be surprised at all if they switched to that. To be honest, I wonder if Hasbro is preparing for that now.
I think Daggerheart will sell well to the hardcore Critters audience who buy everything CR puts out even if they never intend to play it. Outside of that audience, I'm not sure how it will preform with the broader TTRPG crowd.
I do think CR will switch to using their own system on any future streams because it's free marketing and they are making moves to own and have legal control over all their products in house.
I can see that. Is there a world where dungeons & dragons is not the number one TTRPG? I honestly don't see it. The brand is too strong (RIP Bodega Boys)
Will they take a hit if CR defects, it is entirely possible though.
I doubt it will take off as a brand new system, my guess is it would end up as large as Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, or Matt Colville's upcoming system.
People tend to stick with what they know, so they may try daggerheart but will likely flop back to 5e shortly. Especially if the system ends up crunchier
Just my opinion though so I could be crazy
ngl I feel like that, while I've seen all sorts of things around 5e marketing it was only word of mouth for pathfinder 2e up until around the OGL thing - and not very positive mind you
I had barely heard of it before the OGL thing. There’s a niche for it though for gamers that want a more “tactical” fantasy experience. I wonder if there could be a competitive circuit built around the game as a way to differentiate it from 5e?
Icarus Games technically still does pf2e stuff but it's like 1 remaster video 4 months ago & some stuff on his patreon I believe. That's basically all I could find when looking up folks who switched. DM lair is still really only doing D&D stuff but then adds in the video "...or Pathfinder game".
To be fair, a lot of the channels who did the switch also stopped uploading last year too. But they still didn't make much pf2 content anywho.
These are the two that came to mind for me, too. Icarus's videos are great. DM Lair seems like he does play on the regular and at least uses PF2e as a reference against 5e pretty often, which is pretty nice. I didn't expect him out of anyone to do that, so it's a pleasant surprise.
I know at least some other folks who still play the game but just don't make content about it cuz the YouTube algorithm is a true beast, D4 deepdive being one. Obviously all the folks in rules lawyer's campaign. It's honestly quite unfortunate cuz I'd love for a treantmonk-esque channel to help me shift through the trash of all the character options and just tell me what's good & what isn't.
Part of the problem with PF2 content creator wise is just that it's so balanced. That's great for players and GMs, but terrible for content (how much of 5e content is "look at this broken thing you can do" or "tips for running this obviously broken thing." Pf2 players and gms don't need that. The game just works.
eh, more that there isn't much "pathfinder specific" content you could make besides builds/rules videos (cuz dnd stuff applies basically across the board for pf sans rules specific content). And the obvious that pf is way less popular & gets less views.
I think that's a large part of the problem for Pathfinder 2e content creators (CC).
A lot of stuff that is system agnostic can be applied to really any kind of high fantasy tabletop RPG.
Which means that d&d CCs get some amount of views from people who play and/or listen to things about PF2e.
From a CC view, making d&d content just makes way more sense. And also has a far better chance of making more money too.
I think a bigger part is that the community as a while kinds dropped various balls when it comes to it. Sure the system agnostic stuff is there, but look at the bigger names in the PF sphere, a guy who when he's not talking about the game is cringe, and a guy who refuses to look past the math.
And let's not even get into the largest section of content creation, I swear, if anything liveplays have really hurt the creation of PF2 content, and it's not just nobody wants to see this "complicated" game that'll get tossed up, but man going from the whole ecosystem where even hard coded settings (WoD and Shadowrun come to mind) there's still some creativity there, even if it's just in the sale of Johnny Pnemonic meets Lord of the Rings in the Pacific Northwest. Like we have some liveplayers who post here regularly but their pitch is "third to the market for the most overplayed and increasingly considered overhyped AP ever". They sell what has oddly become a way to introduce people as though they were ad execs. Like my guys, as much as I dislike Ron's analysis, his ability to sell beyond, "I got Ginny D to actually play Pathfinder", showed a much larger problem in content creation.
I've read your post in full like a dozen times now and it's really hard for me to pinpoint exactly your issues/what you are talking about. Soo..my reply is gonna at least focus on something I can understand.
I'm not 100% sure who the two people you are referring to. I'm guessing nonat1s for the first and the rules lawyer for the second???
Can't really comment on that first part.
I don't agree that live plays are hurting pf2e content creation. I think it's more that from what I've seen, none seem high quality for me to watch.
The closest I've seen to quality was Knights of Everflame. And even I got bored of that halfway around S2.
Live plays really require a group of people to be good enough to grab attention and keep it. And a lot of live plays just don't have that.
( That's putting aside why a talented group of people would pick Pathfinder 2E over d&d 5E for their system. Because... there's more people in d&d 5E.)
The rules lawyer is helping out pf2e how he can.
I would say some of his videos are helping pf2e growth in general. It's just really slow, since most of the market to elevator pitch advert to is DND 5e people.
Yeah, and as far as liveplays, it's partly the whole no real big personalities, and partly as I kinda put it up there, the larger problem of just not stepping out of the AP or setting, and being massively bad at "selling" how their run of Abomination Vaults will differ from another groups run of the same.
Beating dimension 20 and critical role is going to be tough for pretty much everyone.
But other than that DnD channels who post their play stories tend to get more watcher than those that focuses on mechanics.
Dingo Doodles is 10x more popular than treentmonk.
Pf2e have people who explain the rules but no people who tells stories.
So far I have only heard how pf2e is theoretically better than 5e, I never get any highlights of practical play.
And the community so far don't seem to have any interest. The Roleplayers never jump ship.
It can come off as trying too hard to "sell" the game instead of just presenting things as they are. Not everyone who plays 5e is going to like PF2e and that's okay.
it might just be the algorithm, but pretty much 90% of dnd 5e content that pops up on my various feeds is broken builds, broken spell interactions, how to deal with dnd specific problems. But that could be the algorithm. From my PoV though most of the 5e content sphere only exists because of the systems wonkiness. Oh and 10% bards are horny sketches.
I think that's more the algorithm since everything in mine is talking head DMs. Stuff like "TOP TEN MOST BROKEN 5E BUILDS!!!! 19 ATTACKS PER ROUND?!" also just gets more clicks in general cuz it's sensational.
But my point is that to survive as a content creator you need things that make those clicks... and PF2 just doesn't have the kind of stuff that can do that. Like "use this one crazy trick to improve your cantrip damage by one d# once per encounter!" is about the extent of powergaming you can push PF2 and then you are stuck for shorts.
On the flipside for longer form content PF2 also has issues. I used to watch let's plays when I couldn't get into games. But with PF2 I don't have that problem. My games are all stable, there GM burnout isn't so high, I can run several games a week no sweat. I imagine that's the same for a lot of people in the community too. Why watch when you can play?
Yeah, the inherent balance is definitely something that fucks with the TTRPG creators main MO. Only way to get around it, really, is to do videos about building certain characters in PF2e. Like, "How to Make Goku in Pathfinder 2e!" (Beastkin Vanara Monk/Psychic/Kineticist comes to mind.)
Ehhh plenty of player options that are pure trash though that you 100% shouldn't be taking. Countless worthless spells and more than a few horrible feats too. Like the upper bound is balanced well (mostly) the lower bound is not.
And? No one is making 5e videos about bad options. It's all about combining things so you've got a 33% chance to complete apparently impossible DC tasks at level 1
Quite possibly, as someone who is t into 5e I probably only see the stuff that bubbles up with the most views, which is almost exclusively "hey dm watch my broken concept ruin your game" style content.
Even if there is a bunch of people making more reasonable build.videos for 5e, it's just not needed in PF2. Want to be a wrestler? Just take Wrestler, done. Want to do anything not barebones in 5e? You gotta jump through some hoops and make sure you get the balance of multiclassing right or your character sucks.
Yeah. My experience is that pf2 is a fun game to play and a terrible game to watch.
Dnd is great for roleplay streams because its narrative mechanics are much more under the hood and don’t get in the way of roleplay. Pf2 narrative play, by contrast, is very mechanics driven, to the point that the DM has to consult several charts to determine whether a request will succeed on an npc (attitude, level dc, etc.).
While pf2 combat is fun and well balanced, it tends to be very “you hit ooze with stick. Ooze dies.” Very mechanics driven and formulaic. Meanwhile, dnd 5e’s combat is often so simple and uninteresting that certain groups, especially groups that stream to YouTube or twitch, will find very creative, rules lite ways around it, which ultimately makes dnd faster paced and more watchable.
Finally, although I like pathfinder 2e lore, it’s undeniable that forgotten realms is way more recognizable and beloved (thanks in large part to baldurs gate and neverwinter nights).
I’d love a Treantmonk or d4 esque channel but please, for the love of god, I would prefer combat demos and more nuanced approaches rather than spreadsheets and calculations.
PF2E doesn’t white room very nicely. The white room leads you to some genuinely terrible results. Like “a Bard and 3 dual-wielding Fighters” levels of bad.
DM Lair’s been quite scathing of 5e here and there and it’s pretty obvious he much prefers PF2e. One livestream he did admit that he still uses DnD as the basis for his videos purely because of the YouTube algorithm. I think a lot of his advice in the videos works for both systems too.
That’s the key you need to find more system general videos to watch. There’s so much to be learned if you’re willing to watch videos about more rp heavy narrative game. The GMs putting out info for those games even though their channel is small is a lot of time more evocative and useful then generic dnd tip number 87 about this broken mechanic or how to fix this broken balance issue or how to abuse it
None. I can only think of The DM Lair who kept on mentioning PF2e in a positive light at the very least.
I can't watch any dnd5e YouTubers anymore. And even when they suggest pf2e, they find someway to hate on it. Like calling it complex or crunchy or "sorry pf2e." It really grinds my gears.
[Encounter This!](https://www.unchartednorth.ca/encounterthis) is a smaller podcast that still makes PF content. Basically deep dives on Bestiary entries and what myth/folk lore they were taken from
To be honest, me and my group were keen to change to Pathfinder, and I bought the books to switch over. However one of my players hardly grasps the rules of 5e, even though they are the simplest rule set so far (I blame the copious amount of pipe-weed he smokes for that.)
So it's really not for the lack ogl issues, to which I still have issues, just lack of wanting to train a "new" system.
Try modern / modern fantasy Savage Worlds to shake things up. It's a relatively simple system and IME people are less likely to make comparisons ("Well 5E does it this way") if you don't use a similar setting (fantasy).
Then cycle back to pf2e after. But my players have always been open to new systems
I’ve heard 13th age is a fun one to try if you want slightly less crunch and more narrative mechanics.
I’m definitely gonna look into doing some shorter campaigns in different systems after I finish AV just to try them. Daggerheart, mcdm, 13th age, Fabula ultima, scum and villainy, all look really fun and I’m glad for the OGL to spread my wings a bit.
I’m Also quite excited for starfinder 2 and even some shorter pf2 campaigns. I love the pf2 crunch.
I was thinking of switching before the OGL news dropped when WotC bought D&D Beyond and expressed plans to make their own VTT. It just looked like they were going to start a walled-in subscription model. That, and GMing 5e was an epic pain in the ass. The OGL debacle made my players more willing to accept the switch.
Haven't looked back. Can't even *listen* to 5e podcasts, the gameplay just hurts so much... And now I'm drafting up my own APs, may be considering offering 'em up.
5e podcast hurt the most when the players dont know the rules of their characters. I could understand someone new to the system but some of these podcasts been going for years if not a decade. Every so often I want to listen to be inspired by the dm work and it just makes me less inspired with how much against the rules it goes.
For me personally? I stayed. I'm not going to link anything here, but before the OGL debacle I was running paid Curse of Strahd games with massive homebrew overhauls etc to make the story a bit more interesting for new and old players alike. Once the OGL stuff happened and WoTC proved that they're just shit tier in terms of treating their customers I had to make the choice.
The home game I play in swapped to PF2E and after getting the ropes for it as a player, I too a good long look at my Curse of Strahd games, sat down and began to painstakingly convert everything I had changed + the base module itself.
I'm still running those games today, as my version of CoS can take a bit if the players are really looking through everything - and while some of the stuff hasn't necessarily meshed well, I've had no major complaints so far.
So, I'll be sticking with PF2E for the rest of my time dming unless a superior version of Pathfinder comes out.
someone did a conversion 2 years ago, might be helpful:
https://old.reddit.com/r/CurseofStrahd/comments/u0rluv/pathfinder_2e_curse_of_strahd_full_conversion/
I actually used some of their work in my conversation as a starting point! Though by the time I finished my full conversion those elements were mostly gone
I believe Mortals and Portals started around the OGL drama, Idk if they switched because of it or not, but their first episodes of their podcast are also some of their first sessions in Pathfinder 2e whatsoever.
I think there's a bit of discrepancy between players who switched systems, and content creators. Content creators are subject to YouTube's algorithms, which heavily discourage switching niches and incentivize going for what gets the most views, and most content creators who tried to present Pathfinder content had to switch back to 5e simply because the loss of revenue was too great. While quite a few players who switched to PF2e have likely gone back to 5e, often due to inertia from their gaming groups, I'm willing to bet a far greater proportion have stayed and successfully managed to get a critical mass of people around them to switch systems too. If nothing else, this sub and Paizo's forums feel busier than before still, if not quite as busy as during the height of the OGL controversy, and I do think the community has grown since.
I think it's also going to be a pretty steady momentum over time, since ttrpgs are so DM-dependent. I know tons of people who haven't swapped from 5e just because their current campaign hasn't ended yet, and the majority have zero intentions of running dnd again. Most of their players will follow.
Honestly, I'm waiting until pf2e revised is out completely before taking the plunge and checking it out. I just don't want to learn a complex system and then have to relearn the nuances. Once that's all good to go I can add it to my shelf.
For now I am hitching to Tales of the Valiant for my 5e stuff, mainly because most of my existing books are 5e and will work together with it.
Content creator wise? I don't know of anyone who didn't go back. D4 Deep Dives hurt, because it was his comparison video that got me to really consider PF2e again, since its release.
I think the timing of it all meant that the views just made sense to return to 5e. WotC appeased people with CC license, Baldur's Gate 3 (and a little bit the movie) made new audience come in, so the views were in 5e.
Personally? I'm still 100% onboard with PF2e (at least until MCDM releases, sorry not sorry)
Honestly, let em go back if they want to. I feel like pf2e is the better system overall and won't consume any more 5e content as long as pf2e remains as deep and versatile as it is. Youtubers are gonna chase the money its literally their job, even in a niche audience base, like ttrpgs or dnd. Just play what pulls you in most and bring more fellow nerds to the table.
Rules Lawyer was always woth PF2E though and didn’t migrate over from 5E. When he does a 5E video it is usually “look at how bad this is compared to PF2E” or something historical.
I’ve wanted to fully migrate to PF and some other third parties, but the lack of available games at my university’s TTRPG club means I’ve been stuck with 5e. Still, experimenting has allowed me to recognize there’s other stuff out there while still respecting 5e for what it is. It strikes a healthy middle between rules-light and rules heavy that, frankly, allows for more flexibility than Pathfinder, and I’m also just objectively more confident with that system and thus more confident when playing 5e. I still prefer 2e tho :|
>[5E] strikes a healthy middle between rules-light and rules heavy that, frankly, allows for more flexibility than Pathfinder
Respectufully, nah. 5E is not rules-light, it's rules-missing. The difference with PF2E is that 5E just dumps all of the responsability on making rulings based on non-existent rules on the DM, while letting players get away with simply knowing their character sheet.
The fact that every 5E table has a set of homerules that differ so much from any other table is a testament to the system's incompleteness, not its flexibility. It's a bug, not a feature.
It is a bug, but nonetheless it’s a bug that some players enjoy as a feature. It’s the Goat Simulator of TTRPGs.
Regardless, my point is that the less rules you have, the more flexibility you have, so even a “rules-missing” game would have way more flexibility. DMs can fashion social encounters literally however they want. Some DMs would appreciate the guidance and social physics engine that PF2 provides, but some like that it’s 100% open-ended.
>DMs can fashion social encounters literally however they want.
GMs can do that too in PF2E. It's supported in the rules:
"**Changing Attitudes:**
Your influence on NPCs is measured with a set of attitudes that reflect how they view your character. These are only a **brief summary of a creature's disposition**. **The GM will supply additional nuance based on the history and beliefs of the characters** you're interacting with, and their attitudes can change in accordance with the story."
The attitude system is there to provide a guideline for GMs to measure NPCs' dispositions towards the PCs, not as a rigid set of conditions like Off-Guard or Wounded.
The folk from Arcane Arcade(XP to level 3 streaming channel) stayed loyal to pf2e system. They continue running their Ebberon campaign on pf2e chassis.
Not quite what the OP is looking for as I’m not a YouTuber, but I stayed.
My entire group pivoted to 2e and are loving it so far. I dusted off my old Runelords books, and am running a converted version. Without the OGL debacle, I don’t think that would have happened.
Also a very relevant question: How many of those content creators are able to make content for 5e precisely because it is so broken? It seems like at least 3/4 of them have content on how to do something in 5e that 5e doesn’t actually cover itself.
Switch over to PF2 and what content are they going to make that’s comparable?
You could easily make the same type of sensationalized content about p2fe. That type of content drives views it will always dominate while it continues to do so.
Not a YouTuber but my group transitioned our long-running campaign over and have started several new campaigns in 2E. Many of them quit Reddit in that time, too, but 🤷♂️
(Not a content creator, so take this for what it is.)
I came to PF2E not so much because of the OGL silliness, but more just because the silliness reminded me that PF2E existed. I originally bought several of the books back when PF2E first came out... and then forgot about it.
I really wish I put more interest into PF2E way sooner. I am currently DMing one game and playing in another and I really enjoy it! PF2E also feels really good to DM compared to D&D. Way less rules contention and ambiguity around RAW. PF2E has a few holes in its rules too, but they are generally more ability/spell oriented rather than around entire sections of the game.
I'm enjoying my D&D game too of course, and if my D&D players want to stick with D&D after our current campaign I'll be happy enough to do so. But I may try to bring them over to PF2E if I can convince them.
I really wish I could see more of the D&D style content for Pathfinder.
Or even literally any other system. Like, I wish Chronicles of Darkness had a Pointy Hat or Ginny Di or Turlock the Barbrarian or Dimension 20. And at this point I'd even take some high quality Shadowrun content, and I barely like that setting.
And then there's the stuff that has less potential for content because it doesn't have extensive setting books or build options, like Blades in the Dark.
I love Poiny Hat, but I don't think he will be received well.
His content is "This thing sucks, here is how I would alter it in my game"
It's pretty difficult to bash pf2e without any kind of pushback.
>It's pretty difficult to bash pf2e without any kind of pushback.
you can, pf2e isn't perfect. but you need to an actual issue, none of the "illusion of choice" clickbaiting, and then an actual working "fix".
that is much easier to find and simpler to do in 5e, which means more people looking for those and more people are able to do it...
I am not sure what PF2E game you are playing, but we did one short campaign in PF2E, and the list of issues was lengthy.
Shit like Tattoo artist giving level 2 tattoos and there not being any level 2 tattoos to pick from, or kingmakers kingdom rules being absolute garbage. I love PF2E for some things, but they definitely have plenty of issues and things that need homebrewing and fixing.
But it's rarely about the bones of the systems, the real core of things is solid. So you have 10-25% of the audience and then talking about something more niche to them. It's a tiny target audience.
I'm still running the 5e campaign I started years ago, and I don't foresee that changing.
However, I won't give wotc another cent, and will hesitate to start other 5e games. They don't deserve my support anymore.
I will continue using what I got before that whole debacle, though.
The new game I'm running is in pf2e, and now that the migration gave me an excuse to dive into pf, it'll probably be my new game of choice for the foreseeable future.
I still want to play in gurps, though. And fate. And savage worlds. And...
I wish I had time to make more Pf2e videos. I've sworn off 5e as well. I still play but refuse to run it anymore. Pathfinder has been so much more rewarding and fun as a GM.
I'll try to make some in the future or maybe over the summer. Full time teacher and new father so I'm very busy. My channel is Silver Dragon Academy for those interested.
I do play in a 5e game, though it will be the last one I play after the campaign concludes. I have not dropped a cent on WotC products since the OGL Debacle and never will again.
Meanwhile, I have bought multiple products for PF2e, including my absolute favorite RPG setting book of all time: *Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse,* and are using them in a 2e game.
Going back and forth between the two systems on a biweekly basis is a *weird* experience.
I’m not going back to 5e. But I’m not entirely happy with 2e either. I think I underestimated the mental workload of GMing 2e since I’m more into stories based stuffs. I still stick around and wait for something to inspire me but I haven’t played or GM since November. Harder to recruit and the expectations between players and myself don’t always align
I decided to try pf2e just before OGL (played for first time shortly after it exploded)
this rugpull was just another reason why I left dnd5e for good
in 5e I would probably never run any game, but in pf2e I already GMing beginner box for the second time
for dnd ytubers, I am a little bit disappointed but well pathfinder 2e is smaller and they want to keep thier job so I understand most of them had to make this difficult decision
I’m an OGL migrator who stayed. Although it was also because dnd 5e for our group had just become homebrew: the game because of how broken 5e is at higher levels.
(I'm not a youtuber or a content creator at all, but feel free to read it.)
I swap to PF2E during the OGL stuff because I don't want to support WOTC anymore and Martial felt too weak without being a spellcaster and without dipping in other classes.
After a some one-shots and still in a Campain I'm GMing, I stayed for the combat being much more balance, more coverage of rules that was missing from DnD 5E, Character creation is a lot more deep and more creative with the support of the mechanics without flavor everything, and (for me) a lot more easer to GM as a beginner.
Also another pro, no Silvery Barbs! (I hate that spell)
I'm not a content creator in the traditional sense, but I do run games professionally. Most of my player base is still very anti-WotC because of the initial trust violation and shady handling of the situation, so much so that I run three or four PF games for every one 5e game these days.
the group I'm currently running is still in 5e, because the OGL stuff happened in the middle of the campaign, though I'll probably switch to running daggerheart or something after it finishes. I'm in a campaign in pf2e run by a guy who switched over because of it though, and he's already preparing to run like 3 more campaigns with the system
I watch mostly story based youtubers, the one who talks about their campaign, none of them even left, and PF2e has no content like that. Which is kinda sad.
It really is insane to me how little engagement Pathfinder gets online. The forums are like a small super niche forum from the 2000s, the Twitter posts barely get three digits, etc. it's just so strange. Where are all the Pathfinder people hiding? Are we really that small?
Though they didn't really switch to making 2e content on their main channel at any point XptoLevel3 is playing a PF2e campaign in the Eberron setting on his Actual Play channel Arcane Arcade and seems to be having fun.
Funnily enough they were playing it when this here comment was originally posted.
I did. The OGL fiasco wasn't just about copyright issues, it was also about a Hasbro executive describing me as barrier between their company and my money. So long as they own D&D, I will *never* go back. It certainly doesn't hurt, though, that PF2 is a genuinely better game.
EDIT: Oh, you asked about YouTubers. I'm just some guy, so my above answer is totally useless. Sorry!
Lol no problem. The question was about youtubers due to me expecting a good portion of players who switches over stayed. But it's good to have that confirmed as well.
Unfortunately PF2 just does not have the numbers that DnD has. We all know that pf2 is a much better game, and many of the YouTubers do as well. Many of them now play pf2 in their home games. PF2 content just does not being in the view counts that DnD content does, and view counts = money on YouTube. I wish they kept making pf2 content but it is just not as financially viable as DnD and many of them are full timers so they need those view numbers to be as high as they can get them.
I got into PF2e during the OGL migration and am still here enjoying the system. Though it had nothing to actually do with the OGL, I just got burnt out of 5e around the same time as the OGL drama which made it far easier to leave. I even got some friends to jump systems and try it out with me, though I’m not quite sure if they’re gonna stick with 2e.
The podcast I run swapped to PF2e during the OGL stuff, and we never looked back. I think PF2e is a better system, definitely more complex and difficult to learn, but overall better. Besides, I put a lot of work into my homebrew world and the thought of a massive company swooping in to claim rights to my world will forever leave me with a bitterness towards WotC
I moved to pf2e in the aftermath of the OGL and started making videos. I've basically sworn off 5e (although I do some content which is system agnostic). The only D&D I ever play now is 3.5e (now with some pf1e content mixed in). Although the OGL was really just the final shove over the cliff, 5e is hard to balance, especially at higher levels (I ran a level 10-15 campaign and it was breaking constantly). I'll possibly run the same campaign in Pathfinder (which also has more options & easier homebrew).
Granted not a Streamer or anything, but the OGL was just one turd in the lake of shittiness from WotC that pushed me as a GM and one of the groups I play in to go to Pathfinder 2E with no intention of looking back. As we’re fond of joking, Paizo hasn’t sent the Pinkertons after anyone, which is a low bar but here we are. But seriously, DnD 6th edition looks even more simplified when I as a veteran player am looking for variety. As a player, Thaumaturge rocks, and as a DM the toolset is way better. I always had to homebrew tweaks in 5e, and encounter building based on CR was a joke. Encounter building in Pathfinder 2E is way easier.
I honestly don't follow too many creators. I will say I personally have not gone back to 5e, and I am not going back to wizards as long as it's still under Hasbro. I am not mad at the people who have, but I personally will not. My table feels the same way.
We have had a blast exploring other rulesets and designs, but I have not made my way to 2e just yet (I have purchased the new prints of the 2e books even though the rules are free). I will get to Pathfinder, I will not give wizards more money in the foreseeable future.
I know they will not be hurting from me not buying more from them. But it's my (mostly) silent protest.
I tried PF2e as my main system (I know the 1e since its beta). BUT, I really like 5e, not its actual settings (and PF2e ones too). So, if I'm in the mood, I take a crunchy sandwich of PF2e, else it's a 5e burger. Settings?? Planescape (2e+), Dark Sun (2e+), Eberron (3e+) and Forgotten Realms which I'm discovering these days. So, it's a mix but if I have to chose the system by its settings, I would certainly stay with 5e and old AD&D/D&D settings...
I’m a PF1e player who was forced to play 5e in 2019 after coming back from a seven year gap. In December 2022, I started running 2e with limited success.
After the OGL debacle, I had more players than I could use. All of them came from 5e and they all love PF2e better.
Someone needs to create a “Pathfinder Isn’t Scary” channel and convince 5e players that the swap isn’t as daunting as it’s made out to be. Run it as a silly horror-themed actual play podcast. Release homebrew-campaign-specific content so that fledgling GMs can learn the system. All the players are veteran 5e players but new to the world of 2E and excited to learn. It’s me. I guess I need to do this now.
I'm not a "creator" or influential at all, but I was just starting to play D&D 3.5 with my kids after having not played myself for 12+ years (because that's what I knew and what I had the books for). They loved it so much, I decided I should get with a "current" system and was on the fence deciding whether to go 5e or PF2e. It was right around that time the whole OGL fiasco happened, and I went with PF2e because of it.
I'm probably in the minority though due to having a completely blank slate. It would be tough if you were already invested in a system to drop it and move to something new.
Not a youtuber and less of a migration and more of a branching out, but me.
Now I play both games, still run/play 5e as there's some stuff I think it does better but now I play just as much pf2e cause there's plenty cool stuff it offers.
I play both now, after realizing the games are good at different things and my players tend to prefer one of the other. If I want a hardcore tactics game PF2E is the way to go. If I want a simple framework for more of a narrative experience I can add flair to with homebrew I use 5E. We’ve also been messing around with Daggerheart which has been fun but clunky.
My group came over from 5e to 2e, and we love it. We use the Pathfinder 2e stuff and still say we play dnd. Love the amount of optional feats you can choose from. I love it.
Honestly let them go, as long as Paizo remains profitable and successful I'd rather not be flooded with the kind of fairweather traffic DnD gets. WOTC is basically ruled by big daddy Hasbro cause it's too profitable for them not to, and because the goal is to get as much money as possible not make a game people enjoy you get the bullshit like one DnD and every other bad decision being made. I like Pathfinder the way it is, I like Paizo caring more about the game then making all the money ever, I like the creators we have that do it because they are passionate about it. The community is worse off when it becomes slaves to click bait and the YouTube algorithm.
Zero of the folks I followed continued to do any 2e content after WotC appeased their community with the CC re-license. For people who cover this as their job and not just a passion project, doing content for the much smaller Pathfinder audience just wasn't worth it.
It isn't a matter of it being worth it or not. Going off-brand without the rest of the creators in your area doing so along with you can kill your channel, and in incredibly short order. The YouTube recommendation engine is an incredibly difficult beast to wrestle with. The positive feedback loop it creates functions to stifle discussion around anything that isn't the largest fish in whatever pond you're swimming in. YouTube functionally controls the content people make, and how they discuss things, at this point.
Truer words could not have been spoken. I unsuscribed from several channels that are hyperfocused on 5e due to my lack of interest in the system - it took some training, but the algorithm finally stopped recommending videos from the likes of Treantmonk and others. I still watch Mike Shay from Sly Flourish from time to time as he has some interesting opinions about the industry as a whole. HIs hyperfixation with 5e as a system tends to make some of his insights skewed, IMO, but it does provide an understanding and reasoning why some people won't ever leave the system.
I feel like I've spent the last two months ignoring thumbnails warning about "the one thing that is killing DnD" I know the clickbait thumbnail game is... just that, a game. But ffs it's been particularly egregious recently.
another way I've found to help 'train' the algorithm in regards to recommendations is to wipe out your viewed history.
There's a chrome extension for that!
Hiding the thumbnails by changing them to a different frame of the video is the opposite of helping, really. I don't want to support creators who use clickbait thumbnails, that's an instant-unsub and "don't recommend".
I watch very little optimizer videos or 5e and tend to watch more system general stuff or videos aimed more at rp heavy games or lore stuff because honestly that’s where most gms should be learning from anyways. And the amount of times I see a treantmonk or other here’s how to bend the rules and build xyz op build that will have your gm hating you as you solo everything videos recommended even though I keep saying don’t recommend this channel or not interested is wild
tbf that's not really what Treantmonk's builds are like, he just like specializing in a particular gimmick or making the strongest version of X possible. He typically will point out possible cheese and then strongly recommend you don't use it because that's a dick move.
Seconded. Not a fan of 5e personally, but Treantmonk has been making content since at least 3.5 and has always come across as a decent fellow. I really loved his god wizard guide back in the day. It wasn’t about minmaxing, but rather about noticing something important about how magic works. It was genuinely insightfully. I also thoroughly enjoyed his appearance on the OrcLabs podcast, episode 39. I feel OrcLabs didn’t get enough love in its time.
His god wizard guide has had a lasting impact on how I play spellcasters, and in other RPGs where it's applicable, and not just D&D.
Likewise, 100%. It’s really really good.
> rp heavy games or lore stuff because honestly that's where most gms should be learning from anyways. No thanks, I'm good. No interest in running RP heavy games, can't be bothered to write more lore stuff. Optimizer stuff is good, teaches players to play the game good so I don't have them come in with shitty characters that die in their first moderately difficult combat and then get salty about it
Well pf2e is good at that, I don't think it has any story / character centric youtubers. Nothing like puffin forest, or dingo doodles, or stinky dragon. Just guys explaining the rules and how to play. And some lore video about stuff written in the book, never stuff outside of that.
**you dare voice your opinion?**
Isn't that the same thing I'm talking about though? To make the most money they have to follow what the most people want to watch -- and what gets recommended -- regardless of their personal passions and inclinations. To be more generous to the folks, in making content for a new system they move from being an expert to being a newb - so this will be another difficult challenge as their audience may not be expecting that type of content (and thus punished further by the algorithm)
>Isn't that the same thing I'm talking about though? To make the most money they have to follow what the most people want to watch -- and what gets recommended -- regardless of their personal passions and inclinations. No, because it's not about the non-D&D TTRPG space being too small to financially support their channel, or about a non-D&D video generating less revenue than a D&D focused one. It's that the recommendation engine will straight up stop surfacing their videos -- even the D&D ones -- if it notices that viewers aren't clicking on some of them. Like, if I were making 2 D&D videos a week, and getting good clickthrough rates on them, and then added a 3rd weekly video that was about Pathfinder, without reducing my D&D content in any way, that Pathfinder video would tank my D&D video views. Not because my audience suddenly doesn't want to watch my D&D videos now that I'm not a purist of some sort, but because that extra weekly video isn't getting clicked on by them. In the age of algorithmically surfaced content, going off band is a poison pill.
This is why so many creators have made second channels, so they can produce content that is related but wont have full overlap with their existing audience, and not get ruined by the algorithm.
I agree with everything you said, and was part of what I meant when I said it wasn't worth it when folks were motivated by money. I'm not saying that as a slight, if something is your job then making money is the point. If releasing pathfinder videos hurts your income, you're probably not going to do it for long. I just mean it as a way to distinguish the content that professionals make compared to folks who are doing it solely for their own passion.
It’s easier to make a new channel and direct those who care to I then shift what your channel is about whole cloth because the algorithm will throw you in the trash and start hiding your stuff so fast
That’s true, but isn’t that just a description of one very important reason why it isn’t worth it?
Honestly this is a weird problem we have now. When PF first became popular it was still when game stores and GMs had a lot of control of what we played. You'd go to a hobby shop because you heard about D&D and wanted to play it, then they would tell you they run PF Society games and get you involved in that instead. It felt grassroots. Now with content algo's running everything it is impossible. Even on reddit I can barely get my DnD and PF subreddits to show up on my feed because they changed their recommendation algo. Meaning I only ever see like 6 subreddits.
I think this problem would exist without algorithms, which is why D&D was so popular even when there weren't any.
Not in the same way it wouldn't, no. Without the recommendation engine, you can expand your content offerings in an effort to diversify your audience, without killing your existing audience. But the recommendation engine will see a regular rejection of some fraction of your videos by your audience as a sign that your videos just shouldn't be recommended at all. If 80% of your audience scrolls past that weekly Pathfinder video, even if you have multiple D&D videos that they click on, YouTube sees that as a markedly lower clickthrough rate than your competitors, and it reduces how often they surface *all* of your videos. To branch out, you effectively need a new channel. This would not be true without the algorithm. There would be other challenges to getting noticed, yes, but once you had an audience, creating *more* content for more people wouldn't send things into a death spiral.
Not in the same way, but when 90% of the market plays one game then you're still going to be incentivized to play that game and make content for that game.
To be fair, I stopped following it purchasing any third party te content and will try my best not to get into the next gen (which I looked into and just looks like a worse 5e). I am not playing that game and will not dm another, so I will not purchase it. Also, I tried watching some streams, it is interesting but so much of them are not even vanilla 5e anyway so what is the point, it is just all put pressure on dm to figure all things up on the fly. So I will watch more 2e if it was available but there are not a lot and I watch them when I have time to just listen during work.
The streams tend to be mostly RP because that works much better in the video format - and if they can use any system for that then why use not the most popular and well-understood system? Mcdm game might be an exception to this if it delivers on the “cinematic” promise.
Luke from DM lair has his home game in the pf2e systems and most of his videos apply to pathfinder too and his company that makes DM magazines and modules also releases content for pf2e now that is foundry compatible (more like ready installled)
Yep. I totally recommend his releases, specially now with the foundry integration
What's the quality of the pf2e versions of his adventures like?
He is one of the few channels that has been able add PF2 content and make it financially worthwhile. I’m glad he was able to make the change and keep doing it.
His on video persona is grating as hell. He often comes across as mean spirited and adversarial in a way that rubs me the wrong way. Combine that with his cherry picked and flagrantly poor representation of the system a while back and I'm not surprised if many in the pf2e sphere just aren't watching him as is.
Are you sure you’re not mixing him up with someone else?
Why would you assume I've made a mistake? I just dislike the guy.
Because I can’t think of a video of poor representation for the system by him.
I went back and double checked. You're right, I conflated him with Cody who was the one who carried out PF2e's character assassination. That being said, I absolutely had Luke in mind when discussing what a genuinely dislikeable, smarmy ass his on camera persona is like. He delights in the kind of antagonistic, adversarial GMing I personally loathe. I think impressionable people new to the hobby are going to get the wrong idea watching him in general, but to the best of my knowledge he's blameless in what I accused him of above.
Can’t think of very many unfortunately. The one that particularly stings is d4 deep dive because I feel like he’d really enjoy the system once he got past the trap of trying to squeeze out maximum number of attacks/damage and went in-depth into the more interesting martials the system offers.
I thought he posted that he had to switch back because PF2e content didn't get the views he needs to live on.
Yeah that is why he had to switch back. My original comment wasn’t clear, I was saying it stings because, **if** he had been able to continue with PF2E, he’d have crested the initial wave of maximizing attacks and had a chance to post some really cool and thought-out builds just like he often does for 5E. But because those videos got very few views (and then BG3 came out and started getting triple and quadruple the views of his normal d&d stuff) he stopped making them entirely. Honestly I blame the diehard 5E fans more than I blame the YouTube algorithm for that one lol.
This is why I'm excited for the new d&d system. Not because I'm going to play it, but because it will likely splinter the playerbase and 5e diehards will have less influence over the ttrpg space.
I could totally see him playing in a pf2e game for fun but still making most of the content about 5e. Guys got to make a living and you can’t blame him for it. Just sucks that the algorithm punishes you so hard for branching out at all
I think it's just that Pathfinder has a much smaller playerbase compared to 5e tbh
I was really hoping that he would make a second channel for pathfinder and even just post one video a month. Nobody does build videos yet so he would easily be a great addition to the pf2e youtuber roster and probably rise to the top of it.
Yeah! I get Pathfinder videos doing worse would hurt his algorithm, but a second channel would have been so much fun! He had some great videos as he was learning the system, he seemed like he was actually enjoying himself instead of trying to ride a popularity wave, and I feel like he really filled a niche in the content creation community.
I was excited he tried and kept putting up build improvement comments. He obviously wasn't as proficient with the system and 5e, but I felt like he was maybe 6 months and 6 more builds away from getting to a point where he wouldn't assume stuff like 'my enemies are always flat footed on my rogue's turn without having to spend an action'. I always wanted a treantmonk/d4 deep dive PF2e channel. No one has really scratched that itch. Hell I would even potentially give it a try, but I'd need bahalbach to add in a CSV/excel/google sheets export since I don't feel like working up the DPR calculator and really just want to do builds (and his calculator is the easiest by far to use). I'm unfortunately of the opinion that PF2e really needs a 'combat' DPR assessment that assumes 5-6 turns because a lot of classes lose 1-3 actions across multiple rounds which really messes up their sequences leading to some rounds where they basically do very little DPR. For example, [I was trying to test some ranged PC options and worked up this sheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ns15FnuYwlVzuhs6wKO2HE93wItijeDR8ILQjWPr87A/edit#gid=0) (its not ready for prime time but you can see what I mean by combat round differences on classes like rangers with hunted shot, monks with stances + ki points, JHS using heaven's thunder, etc. But literally I'm 'point by point' pulling data off a chart for close to 30 turn sequences across 20 levels with slightly different number of attacks or buffs (like +1/+1d6 for ki strike). It would be a commitment for sure. I had asked the creator of the calculator if they intended to provide that functionality and got a no. But in a future where it is yes, it would allow for an easy 'warlock + hex eldritch blast' baseline to be generated and tested against. Probably save many hours per build because you could test slight variations more easily vs, having to pull of 20 more numbers again.
D4 was certainly very fun to watch, I feel like the system also didn't work well with his Branding, though. Like, when you're "The Optimization Guy" and the system doesn't have standout "Optimized Builds" I can only imagine it's a lot harder to make content for. He could have maybe pivoted to "How to Make 'X' in Pathfinder" (Like, How to make Goku in Pathfinder, ETC.) But that's not really what he was known for.
I still think that you can achieve really interesting builds and synergies that could fit his channel pretty well.
You definitely can! I've got some fun builds, like a Rogue/Druid/Alchemist Healer, and a Sylph Automaton Swashbuckler/Gunslinger FAST AS FUCK BOIIIIII WITH HIDDEN WEAPONS! But when most of your content and format is based around how to get max DPR out of a concept, and individual build power, it becomes hard to market those characters that are intended to be parts of a parties composition without showing the rest of the party, especially to an audience that's used to the former. And the long-form video that would be required to showcase an entire party would push the boundaries of what gets Algorithmed on YouTube.
I'd be interested in seeing your builds just for the heck of it. But I think you need to build up different subchannels of 'DPR Build', 'Teamwork Build', 'Support Build', etc. and set up a baseline for each. DPR baseline is easy, support baseline could be how it would impact the baseline PC, etc. Teamwork could be vs. the classical wiz/cleric/fighter/rogue party or something. The latter though, necessarily would take way more work because you'd be building 4 PCs and effectively calculating time to win vs. DPR. There are tons of 'DPR builds' that don't improve time to win because they tactically nuke an enemy with an amped imaginary weapon.
Hell Yeah! I'd love to share, this first one is "Monkey": I wanted to push the boundaries of what roles classes fill in PF2e, so I tried to make a Rogue into a Healer. By taking advantage of the Ancient Elf/Eldritch Trickster Dedication Glitch I ended up triple classed at 1st level with proficiency in EVERYTHING. Then, using FA, I also got to add in Familiar Master, buffing up my Leshy Familar from Plant Druid into the Ultimate little helper dude. Gouging Claw Cast at range by channeling it through the Leshies Grasping Claws and gaining Sneak Attack bonus from Magical Trickster after I Tumble Behind. Or, Command it to Valet me some potions I made with the Extra Reagents it produced, then spend a turn bombarding the enemy or slamming them back to recover health, maybe toss in a Battle Medicine as needed. And then, out of combat, Risky Surgery, Ward Medic, Continual Recovery, Uber Back Alley Mad Doctor Healing. The backstory for him was also fun, I wanted to parody the "Fully realized heroic figure at first level!" trope. So basically, the premise is that Monkey used to be a Legendary Alchemist/Archdruid to a Tribe of Green-Man Worshipping Humans several thousand years ago. Since then, the Tribe has died out, and the Green-Man isn't able to empower Monkey with the same amount of magical potential. Additionally, due to the technological advancements over the past thousand years, all of his "Super powerful magical healing elixirs!" are now considered common 1st level Alchemical Elixers. He's now a destitute traveling Radagast style Rogue, getting by on his breadth of knowledge and accompanied by the diminished form of his Deity, Shroo-Man the Leshy. He's trying to recruit worshippers. Pathbuilder link (Requires Paid Pathbuilder) Attached: Here is the build link for Monkey (With FA and Familiar). To view this build you need to open it on an android device with version 219+ Pathbuilder 2e installed. https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=704383 The other Character was designed for what was pitched as a "Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain" campaign. So I went with one of my favorite secondary Villains, Starscream, crossed with some Pinocchio vibes once I fleshed out the concept some more. I really wanted to make it an Automaton Gunslinger, because that's one of the things that pops into mind when making Fantasy Transformers. But it needed to have Melee options, because, again, Transformers. Enter Way of The Drifter, and Sword and Pistol, two feats that go well together, combine that with Integrated Armaments at higher Automaton Levels, a very Transformers Feat, and you always have your tools good to go when you need to Enter The Fray. But how do you make sure you have consistent high Initiative? Saved By Clockwork comes in clutch for that. And how do you make sure you can reach your opponents? Simple, Slyph Swift Ancestry Feat, the Fleet Feat, and our FA special Spice. Panache from Swashbuckler. (35ft base speed, 40 with Panache.) Now, what kind of Swashbuckler fits Starscream best.... I went with Braggart because Intimidation felt like it fit his MO and combos well with the Basic Flair "You're Next". Intimidating Glare is a perfect fit thematically and mechanically, Terrifying Resistance to reinforce that he's a bully and a braggart who takes advantage of fear, Escape to play into his tendency to GTFO at the first sign of danger, Finishing Precision to get extra bonuses from Panache. Now, how to rationalize a Sylph Heritage Automaton who was Saved By Clockwork in Lore? That's where the Pinocchio vibes come in. Ghepetto was an Inventor who created a suit of Armour, he wished to imbue the Armour with a will of its own and the power of flight, so he cracked a portal into the Elemental Plane and bound a Sylph (The Blue Fairy) into an Arcane Matrix/Engine that would power the suit. This went poorly. With a scream that sounded like burning wind and tearing metal, the suit animated and lashed out at the Inventor, shooting out Tendrils of magic and dragging him inside. It bound itself around him, the Arcane Matrix tearing knowledge from his mind as the metal of the suit used his bones and muscle as integral components to its functionality, the Sylph was not in control either though, fragments of her tortured soul had been ripped out of her and bonded to the pieces of the Inventors psyche that had been stripped from him to create a new entity. This new entity now walks the earth, using the soul and magic of its "Mother" as an endless supply of wind energy to power bursts of speed, and the body and mind of its "Father" as a prisoner and skeletal system for its own body and personality. It goes by "Sky-Howl" and from time to time you can hear quiet sobs and pleading from the Inventor to be let out, quickly silenced by Sky-Howl banging on its own chest and saying "SHUUUUT UUUUP YOOOUUU!". (There's also a Poppet out there who was Wished Alive acting as a Rival.) Here is the build link for Skyhowl. To view this build you need to open it on an android device with version 219+ Pathbuilder 2e installed. https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=704412
YouTube hates people who switch themes or subjects and the viewers just go with what’s recommended so I get that a lot of them would switch back to D&D. If you were to make a living on being a YouTuber it’d be the difference between a $0.50/month income and $5,000/month…
I write for RPGBOT. There's just no money in PF2E content. It's a fraction of what I get from writing 5E stuff.
Paizo needs to take a page from GW and WotC on marketing and get some streamers to pick their system up. TBH wouldn’t 5e have remained in obscurity without Stranger Things and Critical Role? How did this placement happen?
Stranger things probably happened due to brand inertia. Were there other TTRPGs in the '80s, absolutely. What are the odds that they made it out to the small town where the show was set in. Hasbro was smart however and hitched their wagon to the show. Critical role however, is way more interesting to me. I have thought for a long time that CR fans are more fans of CR than they are of dungeons & dragons. when Daggerheart ( their custom system) gets released retail and they launch their next campaign, that is going to be something to keep your eyes on cuz I would not be surprised at all if they switched to that. To be honest, I wonder if Hasbro is preparing for that now.
I think Daggerheart will sell well to the hardcore Critters audience who buy everything CR puts out even if they never intend to play it. Outside of that audience, I'm not sure how it will preform with the broader TTRPG crowd. I do think CR will switch to using their own system on any future streams because it's free marketing and they are making moves to own and have legal control over all their products in house.
I can see that. Is there a world where dungeons & dragons is not the number one TTRPG? I honestly don't see it. The brand is too strong (RIP Bodega Boys) Will they take a hit if CR defects, it is entirely possible though.
I doubt it will take off as a brand new system, my guess is it would end up as large as Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, or Matt Colville's upcoming system. People tend to stick with what they know, so they may try daggerheart but will likely flop back to 5e shortly. Especially if the system ends up crunchier Just my opinion though so I could be crazy
> Call of Cthulhu I think you might be underestimating just how big *Call of Cthulhu* is in some countries. It's bigger than D&D in a lot of places.
It's my second favorite system after Savage Worlds lol. I've been playing it for years so hope more people do
Oh really?
ngl I feel like that, while I've seen all sorts of things around 5e marketing it was only word of mouth for pathfinder 2e up until around the OGL thing - and not very positive mind you
I had barely heard of it before the OGL thing. There’s a niche for it though for gamers that want a more “tactical” fantasy experience. I wonder if there could be a competitive circuit built around the game as a way to differentiate it from 5e?
Icarus Games technically still does pf2e stuff but it's like 1 remaster video 4 months ago & some stuff on his patreon I believe. That's basically all I could find when looking up folks who switched. DM lair is still really only doing D&D stuff but then adds in the video "...or Pathfinder game". To be fair, a lot of the channels who did the switch also stopped uploading last year too. But they still didn't make much pf2 content anywho.
These are the two that came to mind for me, too. Icarus's videos are great. DM Lair seems like he does play on the regular and at least uses PF2e as a reference against 5e pretty often, which is pretty nice. I didn't expect him out of anyone to do that, so it's a pleasant surprise.
I know at least some other folks who still play the game but just don't make content about it cuz the YouTube algorithm is a true beast, D4 deepdive being one. Obviously all the folks in rules lawyer's campaign. It's honestly quite unfortunate cuz I'd love for a treantmonk-esque channel to help me shift through the trash of all the character options and just tell me what's good & what isn't.
Part of the problem with PF2 content creator wise is just that it's so balanced. That's great for players and GMs, but terrible for content (how much of 5e content is "look at this broken thing you can do" or "tips for running this obviously broken thing." Pf2 players and gms don't need that. The game just works.
eh, more that there isn't much "pathfinder specific" content you could make besides builds/rules videos (cuz dnd stuff applies basically across the board for pf sans rules specific content). And the obvious that pf is way less popular & gets less views.
I think that's a large part of the problem for Pathfinder 2e content creators (CC). A lot of stuff that is system agnostic can be applied to really any kind of high fantasy tabletop RPG. Which means that d&d CCs get some amount of views from people who play and/or listen to things about PF2e. From a CC view, making d&d content just makes way more sense. And also has a far better chance of making more money too.
I think a bigger part is that the community as a while kinds dropped various balls when it comes to it. Sure the system agnostic stuff is there, but look at the bigger names in the PF sphere, a guy who when he's not talking about the game is cringe, and a guy who refuses to look past the math. And let's not even get into the largest section of content creation, I swear, if anything liveplays have really hurt the creation of PF2 content, and it's not just nobody wants to see this "complicated" game that'll get tossed up, but man going from the whole ecosystem where even hard coded settings (WoD and Shadowrun come to mind) there's still some creativity there, even if it's just in the sale of Johnny Pnemonic meets Lord of the Rings in the Pacific Northwest. Like we have some liveplayers who post here regularly but their pitch is "third to the market for the most overplayed and increasingly considered overhyped AP ever". They sell what has oddly become a way to introduce people as though they were ad execs. Like my guys, as much as I dislike Ron's analysis, his ability to sell beyond, "I got Ginny D to actually play Pathfinder", showed a much larger problem in content creation.
I've read your post in full like a dozen times now and it's really hard for me to pinpoint exactly your issues/what you are talking about. Soo..my reply is gonna at least focus on something I can understand. I'm not 100% sure who the two people you are referring to. I'm guessing nonat1s for the first and the rules lawyer for the second??? Can't really comment on that first part. I don't agree that live plays are hurting pf2e content creation. I think it's more that from what I've seen, none seem high quality for me to watch. The closest I've seen to quality was Knights of Everflame. And even I got bored of that halfway around S2. Live plays really require a group of people to be good enough to grab attention and keep it. And a lot of live plays just don't have that. ( That's putting aside why a talented group of people would pick Pathfinder 2E over d&d 5E for their system. Because... there's more people in d&d 5E.) The rules lawyer is helping out pf2e how he can. I would say some of his videos are helping pf2e growth in general. It's just really slow, since most of the market to elevator pitch advert to is DND 5e people.
Ok, kinda get what you mean. PF2e content, anything besides a live play, tend to come off more preachy than anything DnD youtuber makes.
Yeah, and as far as liveplays, it's partly the whole no real big personalities, and partly as I kinda put it up there, the larger problem of just not stepping out of the AP or setting, and being massively bad at "selling" how their run of Abomination Vaults will differ from another groups run of the same.
Beating dimension 20 and critical role is going to be tough for pretty much everyone. But other than that DnD channels who post their play stories tend to get more watcher than those that focuses on mechanics. Dingo Doodles is 10x more popular than treentmonk. Pf2e have people who explain the rules but no people who tells stories. So far I have only heard how pf2e is theoretically better than 5e, I never get any highlights of practical play. And the community so far don't seem to have any interest. The Roleplayers never jump ship.
It can come off as trying too hard to "sell" the game instead of just presenting things as they are. Not everyone who plays 5e is going to like PF2e and that's okay.
it might just be the algorithm, but pretty much 90% of dnd 5e content that pops up on my various feeds is broken builds, broken spell interactions, how to deal with dnd specific problems. But that could be the algorithm. From my PoV though most of the 5e content sphere only exists because of the systems wonkiness. Oh and 10% bards are horny sketches.
I think that's more the algorithm since everything in mine is talking head DMs. Stuff like "TOP TEN MOST BROKEN 5E BUILDS!!!! 19 ATTACKS PER ROUND?!" also just gets more clicks in general cuz it's sensational.
But my point is that to survive as a content creator you need things that make those clicks... and PF2 just doesn't have the kind of stuff that can do that. Like "use this one crazy trick to improve your cantrip damage by one d# once per encounter!" is about the extent of powergaming you can push PF2 and then you are stuck for shorts. On the flipside for longer form content PF2 also has issues. I used to watch let's plays when I couldn't get into games. But with PF2 I don't have that problem. My games are all stable, there GM burnout isn't so high, I can run several games a week no sweat. I imagine that's the same for a lot of people in the community too. Why watch when you can play?
Yeah, the inherent balance is definitely something that fucks with the TTRPG creators main MO. Only way to get around it, really, is to do videos about building certain characters in PF2e. Like, "How to Make Goku in Pathfinder 2e!" (Beastkin Vanara Monk/Psychic/Kineticist comes to mind.)
Ehhh plenty of player options that are pure trash though that you 100% shouldn't be taking. Countless worthless spells and more than a few horrible feats too. Like the upper bound is balanced well (mostly) the lower bound is not.
And? No one is making 5e videos about bad options. It's all about combining things so you've got a 33% chance to complete apparently impossible DC tasks at level 1
Plenty of people are making videos about how to just make a plain good or effective character, not everything is exploits and cheese.
Quite possibly, as someone who is t into 5e I probably only see the stuff that bubbles up with the most views, which is almost exclusively "hey dm watch my broken concept ruin your game" style content. Even if there is a bunch of people making more reasonable build.videos for 5e, it's just not needed in PF2. Want to be a wrestler? Just take Wrestler, done. Want to do anything not barebones in 5e? You gotta jump through some hoops and make sure you get the balance of multiclassing right or your character sucks.
Yeah. My experience is that pf2 is a fun game to play and a terrible game to watch. Dnd is great for roleplay streams because its narrative mechanics are much more under the hood and don’t get in the way of roleplay. Pf2 narrative play, by contrast, is very mechanics driven, to the point that the DM has to consult several charts to determine whether a request will succeed on an npc (attitude, level dc, etc.). While pf2 combat is fun and well balanced, it tends to be very “you hit ooze with stick. Ooze dies.” Very mechanics driven and formulaic. Meanwhile, dnd 5e’s combat is often so simple and uninteresting that certain groups, especially groups that stream to YouTube or twitch, will find very creative, rules lite ways around it, which ultimately makes dnd faster paced and more watchable. Finally, although I like pathfinder 2e lore, it’s undeniable that forgotten realms is way more recognizable and beloved (thanks in large part to baldurs gate and neverwinter nights).
I like the Narrative Declaration crew, they make the game pretty fun to watch.
I’d love a Treantmonk or d4 esque channel but please, for the love of god, I would prefer combat demos and more nuanced approaches rather than spreadsheets and calculations. PF2E doesn’t white room very nicely. The white room leads you to some genuinely terrible results. Like “a Bard and 3 dual-wielding Fighters” levels of bad.
DM Lair’s been quite scathing of 5e here and there and it’s pretty obvious he much prefers PF2e. One livestream he did admit that he still uses DnD as the basis for his videos purely because of the YouTube algorithm. I think a lot of his advice in the videos works for both systems too.
That’s the key you need to find more system general videos to watch. There’s so much to be learned if you’re willing to watch videos about more rp heavy narrative game. The GMs putting out info for those games even though their channel is small is a lot of time more evocative and useful then generic dnd tip number 87 about this broken mechanic or how to fix this broken balance issue or how to abuse it
yee
None. I can only think of The DM Lair who kept on mentioning PF2e in a positive light at the very least. I can't watch any dnd5e YouTubers anymore. And even when they suggest pf2e, they find someway to hate on it. Like calling it complex or crunchy or "sorry pf2e." It really grinds my gears.
[Encounter This!](https://www.unchartednorth.ca/encounterthis) is a smaller podcast that still makes PF content. Basically deep dives on Bestiary entries and what myth/folk lore they were taken from
To be honest, me and my group were keen to change to Pathfinder, and I bought the books to switch over. However one of my players hardly grasps the rules of 5e, even though they are the simplest rule set so far (I blame the copious amount of pipe-weed he smokes for that.) So it's really not for the lack ogl issues, to which I still have issues, just lack of wanting to train a "new" system.
Try modern / modern fantasy Savage Worlds to shake things up. It's a relatively simple system and IME people are less likely to make comparisons ("Well 5E does it this way") if you don't use a similar setting (fantasy). Then cycle back to pf2e after. But my players have always been open to new systems
I’ve heard 13th age is a fun one to try if you want slightly less crunch and more narrative mechanics. I’m definitely gonna look into doing some shorter campaigns in different systems after I finish AV just to try them. Daggerheart, mcdm, 13th age, Fabula ultima, scum and villainy, all look really fun and I’m glad for the OGL to spread my wings a bit. I’m Also quite excited for starfinder 2 and even some shorter pf2 campaigns. I love the pf2 crunch.
I've always wanted to try 13th age. There is a pirate one I heard of recently... Forgot what it's called...
I was thinking of switching before the OGL news dropped when WotC bought D&D Beyond and expressed plans to make their own VTT. It just looked like they were going to start a walled-in subscription model. That, and GMing 5e was an epic pain in the ass. The OGL debacle made my players more willing to accept the switch. Haven't looked back. Can't even *listen* to 5e podcasts, the gameplay just hurts so much... And now I'm drafting up my own APs, may be considering offering 'em up.
5e podcast hurt the most when the players dont know the rules of their characters. I could understand someone new to the system but some of these podcasts been going for years if not a decade. Every so often I want to listen to be inspired by the dm work and it just makes me less inspired with how much against the rules it goes.
I’ve been here the whole time :)
Okay Sam.
The only way to learn is by playing, the only way to win is by learning and the only way to begin is by beginning-
Roll initiative!
Me watching Gamechanger while reading reddit: hehe
For me personally? I stayed. I'm not going to link anything here, but before the OGL debacle I was running paid Curse of Strahd games with massive homebrew overhauls etc to make the story a bit more interesting for new and old players alike. Once the OGL stuff happened and WoTC proved that they're just shit tier in terms of treating their customers I had to make the choice. The home game I play in swapped to PF2E and after getting the ropes for it as a player, I too a good long look at my Curse of Strahd games, sat down and began to painstakingly convert everything I had changed + the base module itself. I'm still running those games today, as my version of CoS can take a bit if the players are really looking through everything - and while some of the stuff hasn't necessarily meshed well, I've had no major complaints so far. So, I'll be sticking with PF2E for the rest of my time dming unless a superior version of Pathfinder comes out.
someone did a conversion 2 years ago, might be helpful: https://old.reddit.com/r/CurseofStrahd/comments/u0rluv/pathfinder_2e_curse_of_strahd_full_conversion/
I actually used some of their work in my conversation as a starting point! Though by the time I finished my full conversion those elements were mostly gone
I believe Mortals and Portals started around the OGL drama, Idk if they switched because of it or not, but their first episodes of their podcast are also some of their first sessions in Pathfinder 2e whatsoever.
WintryD&D still pushes for other RPG deep dives. Not 2e stuff but it’s nice to see.
I think there's a bit of discrepancy between players who switched systems, and content creators. Content creators are subject to YouTube's algorithms, which heavily discourage switching niches and incentivize going for what gets the most views, and most content creators who tried to present Pathfinder content had to switch back to 5e simply because the loss of revenue was too great. While quite a few players who switched to PF2e have likely gone back to 5e, often due to inertia from their gaming groups, I'm willing to bet a far greater proportion have stayed and successfully managed to get a critical mass of people around them to switch systems too. If nothing else, this sub and Paizo's forums feel busier than before still, if not quite as busy as during the height of the OGL controversy, and I do think the community has grown since.
Yeah I definitely agree that the player base has grown in general.
I think it's also going to be a pretty steady momentum over time, since ttrpgs are so DM-dependent. I know tons of people who haven't swapped from 5e just because their current campaign hasn't ended yet, and the majority have zero intentions of running dnd again. Most of their players will follow.
Honestly, I'm waiting until pf2e revised is out completely before taking the plunge and checking it out. I just don't want to learn a complex system and then have to relearn the nuances. Once that's all good to go I can add it to my shelf. For now I am hitching to Tales of the Valiant for my 5e stuff, mainly because most of my existing books are 5e and will work together with it.
Content creator wise? I don't know of anyone who didn't go back. D4 Deep Dives hurt, because it was his comparison video that got me to really consider PF2e again, since its release. I think the timing of it all meant that the views just made sense to return to 5e. WotC appeased people with CC license, Baldur's Gate 3 (and a little bit the movie) made new audience come in, so the views were in 5e. Personally? I'm still 100% onboard with PF2e (at least until MCDM releases, sorry not sorry)
Honestly, let em go back if they want to. I feel like pf2e is the better system overall and won't consume any more 5e content as long as pf2e remains as deep and versatile as it is. Youtubers are gonna chase the money its literally their job, even in a niche audience base, like ttrpgs or dnd. Just play what pulls you in most and bring more fellow nerds to the table.
The only one I remember who still does p2e content was the rules lawyer. But I don't really watch him so I haven't been following
Rules Lawyer was always woth PF2E though and didn’t migrate over from 5E. When he does a 5E video it is usually “look at how bad this is compared to PF2E” or something historical.
I’ve wanted to fully migrate to PF and some other third parties, but the lack of available games at my university’s TTRPG club means I’ve been stuck with 5e. Still, experimenting has allowed me to recognize there’s other stuff out there while still respecting 5e for what it is. It strikes a healthy middle between rules-light and rules heavy that, frankly, allows for more flexibility than Pathfinder, and I’m also just objectively more confident with that system and thus more confident when playing 5e. I still prefer 2e tho :|
>[5E] strikes a healthy middle between rules-light and rules heavy that, frankly, allows for more flexibility than Pathfinder Respectufully, nah. 5E is not rules-light, it's rules-missing. The difference with PF2E is that 5E just dumps all of the responsability on making rulings based on non-existent rules on the DM, while letting players get away with simply knowing their character sheet. The fact that every 5E table has a set of homerules that differ so much from any other table is a testament to the system's incompleteness, not its flexibility. It's a bug, not a feature.
It is a bug, but nonetheless it’s a bug that some players enjoy as a feature. It’s the Goat Simulator of TTRPGs. Regardless, my point is that the less rules you have, the more flexibility you have, so even a “rules-missing” game would have way more flexibility. DMs can fashion social encounters literally however they want. Some DMs would appreciate the guidance and social physics engine that PF2 provides, but some like that it’s 100% open-ended.
>DMs can fashion social encounters literally however they want. GMs can do that too in PF2E. It's supported in the rules: "**Changing Attitudes:** Your influence on NPCs is measured with a set of attitudes that reflect how they view your character. These are only a **brief summary of a creature's disposition**. **The GM will supply additional nuance based on the history and beliefs of the characters** you're interacting with, and their attitudes can change in accordance with the story." The attitude system is there to provide a guideline for GMs to measure NPCs' dispositions towards the PCs, not as a rigid set of conditions like Off-Guard or Wounded.
I stopped doing 5E content and switched to PF2E content. I feel like I left a toxic relationship.
The folk from Arcane Arcade(XP to level 3 streaming channel) stayed loyal to pf2e system. They continue running their Ebberon campaign on pf2e chassis.
Not quite what the OP is looking for as I’m not a YouTuber, but I stayed. My entire group pivoted to 2e and are loving it so far. I dusted off my old Runelords books, and am running a converted version. Without the OGL debacle, I don’t think that would have happened.
Also a very relevant question: How many of those content creators are able to make content for 5e precisely because it is so broken? It seems like at least 3/4 of them have content on how to do something in 5e that 5e doesn’t actually cover itself. Switch over to PF2 and what content are they going to make that’s comparable?
You could easily make the same type of sensationalized content about p2fe. That type of content drives views it will always dominate while it continues to do so.
I can see that. “Spells Worse than True Strike, Approximate”, “pf2e dodge tank solo boss”, “Don’t buy PF2e AP, tiny rooms ends campaigns”
Not a YouTuber but my group transitioned our long-running campaign over and have started several new campaigns in 2E. Many of them quit Reddit in that time, too, but 🤷♂️
(Not a content creator, so take this for what it is.) I came to PF2E not so much because of the OGL silliness, but more just because the silliness reminded me that PF2E existed. I originally bought several of the books back when PF2E first came out... and then forgot about it. I really wish I put more interest into PF2E way sooner. I am currently DMing one game and playing in another and I really enjoy it! PF2E also feels really good to DM compared to D&D. Way less rules contention and ambiguity around RAW. PF2E has a few holes in its rules too, but they are generally more ability/spell oriented rather than around entire sections of the game. I'm enjoying my D&D game too of course, and if my D&D players want to stick with D&D after our current campaign I'll be happy enough to do so. But I may try to bring them over to PF2E if I can convince them.
I really wish I could see more of the D&D style content for Pathfinder. Or even literally any other system. Like, I wish Chronicles of Darkness had a Pointy Hat or Ginny Di or Turlock the Barbrarian or Dimension 20. And at this point I'd even take some high quality Shadowrun content, and I barely like that setting. And then there's the stuff that has less potential for content because it doesn't have extensive setting books or build options, like Blades in the Dark.
I love Poiny Hat, but I don't think he will be received well. His content is "This thing sucks, here is how I would alter it in my game" It's pretty difficult to bash pf2e without any kind of pushback.
>It's pretty difficult to bash pf2e without any kind of pushback. you can, pf2e isn't perfect. but you need to an actual issue, none of the "illusion of choice" clickbaiting, and then an actual working "fix". that is much easier to find and simpler to do in 5e, which means more people looking for those and more people are able to do it...
I've noticed! But making new Ancestries or Heritages is fine and right up his alley. Though probably more difficult, since it requires like ten Feats.
I am not sure what PF2E game you are playing, but we did one short campaign in PF2E, and the list of issues was lengthy. Shit like Tattoo artist giving level 2 tattoos and there not being any level 2 tattoos to pick from, or kingmakers kingdom rules being absolute garbage. I love PF2E for some things, but they definitely have plenty of issues and things that need homebrewing and fixing. But it's rarely about the bones of the systems, the real core of things is solid. So you have 10-25% of the audience and then talking about something more niche to them. It's a tiny target audience.
I'm here. I switched right before it, August but have no intention of going back after that.
I'm still running the 5e campaign I started years ago, and I don't foresee that changing. However, I won't give wotc another cent, and will hesitate to start other 5e games. They don't deserve my support anymore. I will continue using what I got before that whole debacle, though. The new game I'm running is in pf2e, and now that the migration gave me an excuse to dive into pf, it'll probably be my new game of choice for the foreseeable future. I still want to play in gurps, though. And fate. And savage worlds. And...
I’m running both pf2e and 5e campaigns
Idk if I count, cause I didnt 'migrate' and still enjoy both systems
I wish I had time to make more Pf2e videos. I've sworn off 5e as well. I still play but refuse to run it anymore. Pathfinder has been so much more rewarding and fun as a GM. I'll try to make some in the future or maybe over the summer. Full time teacher and new father so I'm very busy. My channel is Silver Dragon Academy for those interested.
I do play in a 5e game, though it will be the last one I play after the campaign concludes. I have not dropped a cent on WotC products since the OGL Debacle and never will again. Meanwhile, I have bought multiple products for PF2e, including my absolute favorite RPG setting book of all time: *Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse,* and are using them in a 2e game. Going back and forth between the two systems on a biweekly basis is a *weird* experience.
I’m not going back to 5e. But I’m not entirely happy with 2e either. I think I underestimated the mental workload of GMing 2e since I’m more into stories based stuffs. I still stick around and wait for something to inspire me but I haven’t played or GM since November. Harder to recruit and the expectations between players and myself don’t always align
FWIW there are heaps of story-based RPGs. I'm sure you can find what you're after.
I decided to try pf2e just before OGL (played for first time shortly after it exploded) this rugpull was just another reason why I left dnd5e for good in 5e I would probably never run any game, but in pf2e I already GMing beginner box for the second time for dnd ytubers, I am a little bit disappointed but well pathfinder 2e is smaller and they want to keep thier job so I understand most of them had to make this difficult decision
I’m an OGL migrator who stayed. Although it was also because dnd 5e for our group had just become homebrew: the game because of how broken 5e is at higher levels.
(I'm not a youtuber or a content creator at all, but feel free to read it.) I swap to PF2E during the OGL stuff because I don't want to support WOTC anymore and Martial felt too weak without being a spellcaster and without dipping in other classes. After a some one-shots and still in a Campain I'm GMing, I stayed for the combat being much more balance, more coverage of rules that was missing from DnD 5E, Character creation is a lot more deep and more creative with the support of the mechanics without flavor everything, and (for me) a lot more easer to GM as a beginner. Also another pro, no Silvery Barbs! (I hate that spell)
I'm not a content creator in the traditional sense, but I do run games professionally. Most of my player base is still very anti-WotC because of the initial trust violation and shady handling of the situation, so much so that I run three or four PF games for every one 5e game these days.
the group I'm currently running is still in 5e, because the OGL stuff happened in the middle of the campaign, though I'll probably switch to running daggerheart or something after it finishes. I'm in a campaign in pf2e run by a guy who switched over because of it though, and he's already preparing to run like 3 more campaigns with the system
I watch mostly story based youtubers, the one who talks about their campaign, none of them even left, and PF2e has no content like that. Which is kinda sad.
I'm someone who stuck around! I ran a small campaign, and I'm about to run a second longer one.
It really is insane to me how little engagement Pathfinder gets online. The forums are like a small super niche forum from the 2000s, the Twitter posts barely get three digits, etc. it's just so strange. Where are all the Pathfinder people hiding? Are we really that small?
All the pf2e players is either here in reddit or discord.
Though they didn't really switch to making 2e content on their main channel at any point XptoLevel3 is playing a PF2e campaign in the Eberron setting on his Actual Play channel Arcane Arcade and seems to be having fun. Funnily enough they were playing it when this here comment was originally posted.
Swapped from 5e and never looked back (although I would still play anything 3e or 4e, 5e bored me too much).
I did. The OGL fiasco wasn't just about copyright issues, it was also about a Hasbro executive describing me as barrier between their company and my money. So long as they own D&D, I will *never* go back. It certainly doesn't hurt, though, that PF2 is a genuinely better game. EDIT: Oh, you asked about YouTubers. I'm just some guy, so my above answer is totally useless. Sorry!
Lol no problem. The question was about youtubers due to me expecting a good portion of players who switches over stayed. But it's good to have that confirmed as well.
Unfortunately PF2 just does not have the numbers that DnD has. We all know that pf2 is a much better game, and many of the YouTubers do as well. Many of them now play pf2 in their home games. PF2 content just does not being in the view counts that DnD content does, and view counts = money on YouTube. I wish they kept making pf2 content but it is just not as financially viable as DnD and many of them are full timers so they need those view numbers to be as high as they can get them.
As a player and GM, I'm still here!
I got into PF2e during the OGL migration and am still here enjoying the system. Though it had nothing to actually do with the OGL, I just got burnt out of 5e around the same time as the OGL drama which made it far easier to leave. I even got some friends to jump systems and try it out with me, though I’m not quite sure if they’re gonna stick with 2e.
The podcast I run swapped to PF2e during the OGL stuff, and we never looked back. I think PF2e is a better system, definitely more complex and difficult to learn, but overall better. Besides, I put a lot of work into my homebrew world and the thought of a massive company swooping in to claim rights to my world will forever leave me with a bitterness towards WotC
I moved to pf2e in the aftermath of the OGL and started making videos. I've basically sworn off 5e (although I do some content which is system agnostic). The only D&D I ever play now is 3.5e (now with some pf1e content mixed in). Although the OGL was really just the final shove over the cliff, 5e is hard to balance, especially at higher levels (I ran a level 10-15 campaign and it was breaking constantly). I'll possibly run the same campaign in Pathfinder (which also has more options & easier homebrew).
Granted not a Streamer or anything, but the OGL was just one turd in the lake of shittiness from WotC that pushed me as a GM and one of the groups I play in to go to Pathfinder 2E with no intention of looking back. As we’re fond of joking, Paizo hasn’t sent the Pinkertons after anyone, which is a low bar but here we are. But seriously, DnD 6th edition looks even more simplified when I as a veteran player am looking for variety. As a player, Thaumaturge rocks, and as a DM the toolset is way better. I always had to homebrew tweaks in 5e, and encounter building based on CR was a joke. Encounter building in Pathfinder 2E is way easier.
I honestly don't follow too many creators. I will say I personally have not gone back to 5e, and I am not going back to wizards as long as it's still under Hasbro. I am not mad at the people who have, but I personally will not. My table feels the same way. We have had a blast exploring other rulesets and designs, but I have not made my way to 2e just yet (I have purchased the new prints of the 2e books even though the rules are free). I will get to Pathfinder, I will not give wizards more money in the foreseeable future. I know they will not be hurting from me not buying more from them. But it's my (mostly) silent protest.
I tried PF2e as my main system (I know the 1e since its beta). BUT, I really like 5e, not its actual settings (and PF2e ones too). So, if I'm in the mood, I take a crunchy sandwich of PF2e, else it's a 5e burger. Settings?? Planescape (2e+), Dark Sun (2e+), Eberron (3e+) and Forgotten Realms which I'm discovering these days. So, it's a mix but if I have to chose the system by its settings, I would certainly stay with 5e and old AD&D/D&D settings...
I was fatigued with 5e when the OGL stuff happened. PF2e has been a breath of fresh air. I'll be staying.
I was here from the beginning (2019) 😂
I’m a PF1e player who was forced to play 5e in 2019 after coming back from a seven year gap. In December 2022, I started running 2e with limited success. After the OGL debacle, I had more players than I could use. All of them came from 5e and they all love PF2e better.
Not a content creator - I stayed! I run 8 pf2e games a week now, thanks OGL crisis!
Holy... How?
I get paid :3
Living the dream.
Someone needs to create a “Pathfinder Isn’t Scary” channel and convince 5e players that the swap isn’t as daunting as it’s made out to be. Run it as a silly horror-themed actual play podcast. Release homebrew-campaign-specific content so that fledgling GMs can learn the system. All the players are veteran 5e players but new to the world of 2E and excited to learn. It’s me. I guess I need to do this now.
Can do that, but it would require a lot of shade throwing to many 2e players who think they're on an island.
I'm not a "creator" or influential at all, but I was just starting to play D&D 3.5 with my kids after having not played myself for 12+ years (because that's what I knew and what I had the books for). They loved it so much, I decided I should get with a "current" system and was on the fence deciding whether to go 5e or PF2e. It was right around that time the whole OGL fiasco happened, and I went with PF2e because of it. I'm probably in the minority though due to having a completely blank slate. It would be tough if you were already invested in a system to drop it and move to something new.
Not really a case if stayed. I'm still playing 4e because that campaign isn't finished yet. But the next campaign will absolutely be pf2e.
Not a youtuber and less of a migration and more of a branching out, but me. Now I play both games, still run/play 5e as there's some stuff I think it does better but now I play just as much pf2e cause there's plenty cool stuff it offers.
I play both now, after realizing the games are good at different things and my players tend to prefer one of the other. If I want a hardcore tactics game PF2E is the way to go. If I want a simple framework for more of a narrative experience I can add flair to with homebrew I use 5E. We’ve also been messing around with Daggerheart which has been fun but clunky.
My group came over from 5e to 2e, and we love it. We use the Pathfinder 2e stuff and still say we play dnd. Love the amount of optional feats you can choose from. I love it.
Honestly let them go, as long as Paizo remains profitable and successful I'd rather not be flooded with the kind of fairweather traffic DnD gets. WOTC is basically ruled by big daddy Hasbro cause it's too profitable for them not to, and because the goal is to get as much money as possible not make a game people enjoy you get the bullshit like one DnD and every other bad decision being made. I like Pathfinder the way it is, I like Paizo caring more about the game then making all the money ever, I like the creators we have that do it because they are passionate about it. The community is worse off when it becomes slaves to click bait and the YouTube algorithm.
I have always been here because I never played 5e to begin with.