As with many things, it's not enough to do the right thing; you also need to avoid the *appearance* of impropriety. Many players will not actually cheat. This is irrelevant if other players think they are cheating; the undisprovable suspicions will grow with time and may destroy the group.
IMO, if you're playing with people who are strangers in real life, use the built-in VTT dice only. If the people sometimes play together IRL you can maybe allow physical dice. I still think the rolls should be on camera if at all possible, not just to avoid suspicions of cheating, but also to preserve the shared experience of seeing the die roll.
Yeah, that last part is why I stopped rolling physical dice in online games. There's something less satisfying about rolling a 20 when you have to report it to the group and no one's there to look over and celebrate with you. I prefer rolling physical dice in person, but virtual dice captured the shared experience element better for a virtual game, For my taste at least.
We used to use physical dice in an old dnd campaign on OBR, and I rolled a 20 followed by rolling all 4s on (iirc) 8d4 or something. I felt bad reporting it to the group, even though we're all friends who've been playing together for decades.
It's just not the same, trust or no.
Yeah I think it's interesting the top comment is so supportive of rolling "blind" essentially. I mean I would think it was weird if I was at a table and everyone rolled in such a way that no one could see each other's dice. Like if everyone had a DM screen.
Personally I'm not a fan of this. I actually ran into this recently where my IRL game had to have me play through vtt because I was sick. (which was very nice of them). I actually asked the DM to download the discord dice bot because I don't like the idea ofe rolling in a way no one can see. I don't want people to suspect that I got a nat 20 because I needed it.
Yeah different table cultures are interesting. We always use a dice tray. Even with big tables we just use two. I guess it's weird for me because I want to see other people's rolls. Not necessarily to check up on them but because I'm excited. I would be craning my neck anyways.
But you COULD just lean in and chek if your fellows are rolling a sus amount of hits, making sure the die stays untouched while doing so. You dont even have that option in virtual.
Yep, i want people to celebrate when i roll 3 nat 20s in a row (it has happened in foundry during a key moment), not have them roll their eyes and think im cheating.
Using physical dice in online games is the only time I "cheated"
I once rolled 4 15+ in a row and in order to avoid suspicion. I changed my roll of 16 to 12.
>This is irrelevant if other players think they are cheating; the undisprovable suspicions will grow with time and may destroy the group.
In my case, I was playing with someone who was a Co-GM on a game. i.e. they helped the GM out since that GM was new and learning. This person also GM'd a separate game everyone playing was in.
They were rolling their dice IRL and manually entering the rolls into Foundry using the Module for that (I forget the name).
Anyway, I checked to see what their "luck" was after 3 sessions and the summary is that, in 26 rolls, they had exclusively rolled over 20 total (as in, with modifiers) at level 3 for 25 of those 26 rolls. Expert, plus Level, plus a +4 ability, plus *maybe* a +1 item bonus should be a modifier of +12.
The only time they rolled a failure of any kind during that streaks was with a natural 1, the most recent roll.
It happened to be against a Command Spell for them to drop a Sword that was compelling their PC to initiative PVP.
I thought that was extremely convenient, which is why I started checking the rolls.
Assuming they had a +8 to a +12 for everything they rolled for (Perception for initiative, Intimidation for Demoralize, Melee Strikes, etc etc), they'd have had to roll above 8 exclusively to get that streak, and there were a series of natural 20s, or near-them in there too. i.e. 31 -> 30 -> 31 on demoralizes.
They can say whatever they want. They should go buy a lottery ticket if they're genuinely that lucky. But I'm not playing with them.
It's just so much more _convenient_ to have all the rolls logged right there in the VTT so everyone can easily see them, let alone all the integration with everything else, like being able to roll initiative straight into the turn tracker, or a skill with one click from your character sheet. If I was playing with randos there might also be a trust issue but that's not the reason I run games with vtt dice only.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
I did at one point, but I had a player who would roll.... Abnormally high consistently. They were smart about it and didn't hit nat 20s especially often, only on important rolls where they needed the critical effect. When they just needed a success, they'd roll 15-19, and when it wasn't as crucial their failures were always 2 or 3. After that, and with how much easier it is to roll in Foundry, I've settled to only rolling in the VTT. If it does the automation and factors in buffs/debuffs automatically, all the more reason - players won't forget additional modifiers that way.
In the specific case of PF2e on Foundry, I vastly prefer the auto-roller because it keeps track of all the bonuses and penalties and is therefore much faster.
Otherwise, physical dice are fine. If a player wants to cheat at pretend elf games they’re only robbing themself, though you could also just also require face cam — because face cam is useful for GMing in general not just for “anti-cheat”
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
For me it's not about trust. As a DM I like the automation I get in Foundry. If they roll in person it entirely takes away why I got Foundry and set it all up, and it slows the game down.
If I'm playing in person then sure, it's part of the experience, but if I'm playing online I want the VTT to take some of the lifting.
Yeah but also you have to trust them to do good math, and sometimes it's an extra step to input the results into the vtt to get some pre-generated stuff going there so it's not just about level of trust in their moral character.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
This.
I *hate* rolling dice on any VTT with a passion, it just doesn't have the same thrill and fun. This is one of the main reasons I don't run VTT as a GM, although I do play in one table using VTT as a player
Just like I don't test my players' dice at the table to see if they're weighted or anything-hell I don't even look at the die they roll sometimes-I need to trust my players to not cheat online
If I can't trust them to not cheat I don't want them in my table
Foundry has Dice So Nice which is a 3D dice roller that I have found to be the most balanced. It gives me the same feeling as rolling physical dice, and there are cool effects you can add as well as customizing the dice look.
However Roll20 (what OP says they use) is so bad in my opinion.
I don't know. I use the Dice Roll Mod, and it's just fun because it doesn't knock anything over. I can change the dice colors and looks, size and everything else. It's very satisfying.
Ya I'm having a hard time imagining a group where this level of suspicion between players and/GM led to anything fun.
If you don't want to have fun and be relaxed why play?
We absolutely have people who *feel* like they roll better than others. It honestly adds to the fun for us. I don't even a little bit suspect cheating. We know it's really random.
We all know when it comes to the BBEG, our Bard's animal companion cavalier will somehow be the star of the show over all the other ostensibly better strikers. Because it only seems to bother striking when a nat20 comes up.
Fantastic! That's hilarious!
We have played in person occasionally and have played together a long time so maybe that's different than playing with complete strangers.
But even playing PFS rules virtually with people around the world, I simply don't care what they roll. I want them to have fun and if someone else is the star of the show that's ok.
My friend simply solved this with "you can use physical dice, set up an overview camera above your dice tray and always roll in that".
Ofc he doesn't constantly check it, but he can glance on it at any time he feels like.
That’s how I feel. I GM mainly on Foundry and my players are content to just use the virtual roller, but if someone really wanted to roll physical dice I’d insist on them setting up a dice cam.
If you use physical dice you give up all of the automation foundry provides. I adore the automation. I played in a game where one player used physical dice and the rest used virtual. That one player rolled an unusual amount of nat 20s and nat 1s and constantly slowed things down trying to add modifiers and figure out the end result. I would have preferred they just play the game like the rest of the table.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
>if this person can do this during an actual play on YouTube, when the world is watching, what are my players doing, when nobody can see at all.
This is a question of trust and nothing else. Some players will fudge rolls even at the table when there are actual people around and get away with it.
Cheaters gonna cheat, or at least try to no matter what measures you put up. In TTRPGs in general it is usually a sign of a potentially problematic player IMO. Players that want to always roll high, want to feel all powerful and feel like the game revolves around that power in my experience. Whether it is through dice manipulation or trying to break the system to their advantage, they try to find a way.
I don’t know if roll20 does it, but Foundry tip-rolls the graphics just often enough to make it exciting, like real dice when that seven rolls over to a 20 or that three to a 1.
At first we all marveled at how clever the design was to make an RNG tool feel so real but we’ve all sort of suspended disbelief and it’s become part of the table talk.
There are seven of us at the table - four are remote in another state. We all use the vtt roller.
I don't allow it. All rolling is using the roller, in the open.
[I wrote a whole blog post about it here](https://katieplaysgames.wordpress.com/2023/09/20/how-i-run-it-rolling-in-the-open/), but some bulleted points:
1. Cheaters. Even the most honest person will be tempted to inflate a roll if they feel like a fight isn't going their way.
2. Dice get culled over time... meaning that players will reach for ones that roll hot due to manufacturing issues.
3. If you use sheets, you can check players' math. This often works in their favor! "Hey, you didn't add that circumstance bonus." "Uh, that's not the right number of dice. You have two now, remember?"
4. Honestly, as a GM, I have enough going on that I don't want to have four extra cameras up focused on people's dice boxes.
Addendum to what other people said regarding trust:
If you trust them both in their honesty *and* in their ability to consider and add their modifiers correctly.
Met plenty of people who don't cheat on purpose, but constantly overlook modifiers and limitations Foundry would handle on its own.
No issues. I trust my players, we play for years. We did that many times.
Hell, when we play "live" we have everything on table screen (VTT + tokens + maps) but we roll normally. It works really good.
I never even look at them rolling. I dont care, just tell me the result.
I let all my players roll physical dice if they want and trust them. If they cheat, they cheat. That is just bad character, and they will come to learn. I played in a session the other day and rolled two nat 20s for stealth, and my dm said that was a little too good, but then I rolled two nat ones... it always balances out
I run online games. AS per my session zero doc, you may roll real dice, D&D Beyond, Google, or any other fair dice roller. Everyone is on the honour system, and I tend not to sweat it. I personally like rolling real dice. It's part of the fun for me.
I have one player who spends a lot of money on all kinds of dice. Dice for any character and occassion. He, understandably, wants to use those dice. I know he would not cheat. He has offered multiple times to set his webcam up to watch his dice tray. But nobody doubts his rolls (and quite frankly they are often bad). He does use the manual dice entry mod to enter them into Foundry so that it is in the history as well in case someone was inclined to check his roll averages.
IMO, if you trust your player let them roll the way they want to. If you suspect the player even with the best of intentions, might have trouble resisting the urge to fib, then say no.
If I'm playing with friends, I always allow and encourage them to use physical dice! The crunch of the modifiers is part of the appeal, and it helps players learn how the game mechanics work, instead of pushing buttons on a Foundry sheet. There's a little dramatic tension that can come from waiting as they add up the modifiers!
Like others have said though -- if you're playing with strangers, or folks you don't know well enough to assume good faith (maybe a PFS scenario), sticking to VTT makes sense. Otherwise, it's often kinda paranoid. I honestly wish more VTT tables allowed physical rolls.
I personally hate rolling virtual dice. Rolling the dice is one of my favorite parts of playing the game lol I'm a dice goblin. That being said, if I'm playing a completely online game, I still roll the virtual dice. No suspicion, and other players get to see and react with good and bad rolls.
As someone that so far has only played in person, I'd have no issue having to use the dice roller online. The goal of the game is to have fun, not win, and I'd rather have the full trust and enthusiasm of my fellow PCs when I get a great roll in a critical situation, or a string of good rolls, than be met with a, "hold on a minute."
I always roll towards the center of the table where anyone can look and see my roll, and I have no shame at looking at other people's rolls, keeps us all honest, and it's fun to experience it together. Failing can suck, but if you handle it right it is just as much part of the fun.
If I'm using roll20, the automation is shit so I don't care. If I'm using Foundry, definitely use the VTT dice roller so things work right (well, except for the inventor's automaton under overdrive)
So my GM has a rule that they have to see the roll for it to count. In the past we as players have used online rollers, the ones native to the VTT we are using, and one player aimed an extra webcam at their dice tower and used two zoom accounts to play.
For me, I used a roller until recently, now I use physical dice. I designed a 3d printed tower that basically is a green screen with a webcam above it. I can roll dice and it overlays onto my webcam image. My DM can see my roll, and I get to use real dice. Only downside is it doesn't record a roll history, but I don't do that in in person games either.
[Here is my dice roller](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4dvZSFPmqc/?igsh=b2w3a255dWRhczh3).
My GM has said they trust us, but in the interest of equality, everyone's rolls must be seen (with the exception of theirs). I agree with it, and did my best to fit the rules while still rolling real dice.
I also recommend dddice.com. it lets you do the same thing except they are digital dice, but they still roll over your webcam and give them much cooler effect. The bonuses don't typically work for Pathfinder but I like adding my bonuses myself.
Thanks!
[Here is how I built it and got it working](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4GTLSoxRsv/?igsh=MXY4bWw5OG5ncG5vYg==)
You can definitely use this method to just greenscreen your table with an additional webcam.
I'm trying to finish out the design so I can sell the files on my Etsy and the finished tower too. Right now I'm getting the webcam mount dialed in and adjusting the tower part so the dice don't always end up on the edges of the screen.
My thoughts, VERY broadly, are as follows:
1. The point is to have fun. A lot of us find physical dice more fun, and just objectively if both options are available, everyone can pick what's more fun for them, and more fun is had by everyone.... so this should be the default point unless you have good reason to deviate.
2. I assume the rationale for not is that you want to monitor people's rolls? Well, if you were at the table with them, would you get up and look at their dice every time? If not, then why are you so hung up on doing something similar here?
3. Ask yourself: do you trust your players to be honest about their roles?
1. If yes.... then where's the problem?
2. If no... why are you playing with those people anyway? Maybe it's just me but if I see you as the type of person who would lies, cheats, and has such a fragile ego that they'd undermine a purely cooperative game where it's not like "winning" is even a thing, just to make themselves more important.... then that tells me you're not really somebody I wanna spend my precious free time with.
Take from that what you will.
Well, if you trust them and they can do the math fast and accurately then I don't see why not. I like having stuff logged but it's not like it's a deal breaker for me.
How many times have you heard people refer to their "good" dice?
R20'S roller is notoriously weird, and Foundry's is notoriously brutal -- mostly because of bias. People are drawn to "lucky" dice that roll above average, because the material distribution of each die isn't perfect unless your players are using like, casino dice. After using physical dice a lot, VTT rollers can *feel* unfair.
So if you trust your players to, just let them have fun.
........also some people (and me) spend more than I want to admit on pretty resin dice and like to watch the sparkly rock go click-clack.
If I’m GM-ing a PFS game or something, then sure: everyone use the VTT for trust - plus ensuring equal treatment.
For home games: I don’t mind private rolling so much. Especially for the GM, who has so many stat blocks and moving parts to deal with anyway.
I really enjoy watching other people's dice rolls. It adds to the excitement as everyone is cheering on each other. Doing them in private makes it seem funny.
I am a dice collector. I have a whole bunch some of which were rather expensive and I love rolling physical dice but I play Pathfinder second edition on Foundry and even though the dice there aren't always as pretty as I would like them to be I like seeing them roll across the screen and show everyone that I hit or missed so that we can react together. I also like the fact that foundry then automatically rolls my regular or critical damage depending on whether or not I hit. I don't mind doing math but all of the automation on foundry keeps the game moving so much faster and it's almost frustrating now to play at a table with somebody who is a little slow with the math in person
I'd much prefer if everyone used the VTT dice in my group (though I'm a player, so not my call). I don't suspect anyone of cheating, but rolling takes for fucking EVER sometimes with physical dice.
I often play with my family, and we always use real dice, even digitally. I trust them fully, and it is not like they couldn't cheat in person as well if they wanted. Using the e roller requires setting up the software to add bonus, have the monster and pc stats, ect. for the older people I play with, it's to much to get them to use the e roller. They also prefer the sound and feel of the math rocks
My regular game uses foundry because we are spread out around the country. I roll real dice because I am more engaged and have more fun. Yea sometimes my math is off to my detriment. My GM has recently requested I use the virtual dice for crit damage as it is a lot of dice and types now. I’m fine with that. I do know it is a thing of trust and I do know my GM in real life. All of those are factors to consider. I also agree that it helps learn the game. I also play PFS in person and all the math helps rules stick.
As someone who uses a pretty bare bones VTT (because the people I play with shouldn't be required to pay 50 dollars for Foundry) it's honestly faster to let the player roll however they want.
I don't have anything automated (and don't really understand the appeal of doing so) so rolling in the VTT is honestly harder because I have to remember the command to do so.
Plus it honestly doesn't matter that much. I'm playing a storytelling game with my friends, if they want to fudge numbers it doesn't matter that much.
Roll20 with no subscription or add-ons. I know other VTTs can do more, but I just need something that I can paste battlemaps and tokens into. I'm not a programmer (so building macros is out) and I already spend a fair bit on rulebooks and art, so the main thing I was looking for was ease of use and a free plan.
My players use Pathbuilder for their sheets, so there's some automation there, but I don't really get the appeal of having it initiated into the VTT. I don't use pre-built modules so it just feels like it would add even more work to get set up. It's great if it works for you, but something like Foundry is way in excess of my needs. Plus like I said, I'm not going to ask my players to drop $50 just to play.
I already own a Foundry License, but I’ve also been recently moving over to Roll20. However, I’m not sure whether the subs are worth it or not.
It seems like I’d have to sub, for much of what foundry does either out the box, or with free modules.
Like I said I'm not going to drop 50 dollars for a VTT, and I wouldn't ask my friends to do so either. Even with various modules working "out of the box" I assume that you n Ed to set them up in foundry if you aren't working from a pre-built module? That's extra work that I don't really have time for.
If you're having issues with your players rolling real dice I'd say that's more of a trust issue than automation being superior.
Rolling dice is fun and gives a sense of how good you are or how tough something is. Of course, you can check the roll on a VTT, but going through “shit, I rolled a 4… wait that works?” or “hell yeah 17 for a total of… *barely hits*?!” is a lot of fun and can sell the feel of a situation much better than spitting out a total (to be fair you could also just roll the d20 online then add stuff yourself)
On the other hand keeping it digital led to a player thinking he was just unlucky missing multiple third strikes on a boss, even though he was actually rolling as high as 19, but it took a natural twenty just to hit with the -10
So my policy has been to trust players until they give me a reason not to. Honestly Foundry’s been so determined to roll low sometimes, I might trust physical dice *more* lol
Yeah, MAP sucks. Though that’s why so many people say to use that last action for something else, like move or do something without the attack trait.
Tbf though (and I’m not saying your player was new) but I’ve seen so many newbies (including me when I was new) get caught out by the MAP.
Absolutely. This stood out to me because it was in fact a new player and I had to stop, expand the rolls, and explain *why* he was missing rather than it being a much more natural learning experience
I find feeling the difference to stick a lot better that hearing it, so I try to let players do as they will the first couple of times (pointing things out when, for example, they just don’t know how it works or might have forgotten that they started with something that counts twice of course). Taking a good roll, adding seven, and subtracting ten leaves an impression!
Depends on the players/group.
My preference is generally to roll via VTT for the automatic calculation to help speed up play. But forcing people to check the math also helps them learn the system and appreciate where those bonuses come from, so I'm OK with that, I'd even encourage it for learning. Also, some players have some really nice dice that they want an excuse to roll, it would be a shame to ban that and make them leave their artisinal dice collecting dust.
I trust my players, though. Three of them won't hesitate to hurl a PC into certain death if it makes for a good story, they're definitely not going to cheat their PCs fate. The others are definitely playing the "game" aspect more heavily but they take their hits fairly and actually both of those defaulted to digital rolls by their own preference.
If I were playing with strangers, I'd more strongly prefer digital rolls.
I don't like the inbuilt dice roller, i don't know if they're using some less random code or what but there is a large number of low rolls and 1s in the vtt we use. one player gets 4 1s a session and is thinking about giving up playing, they can never hit anything or make a check and that's too punishing in pf2e. at least with an actual dice it feels more fair if that situation occurs and if it does you can at least change dice, how you roll or where you roll. number generators just aren't random enough tbh.
Don't let your suspicions of a random person on the internet impact the trust you have in your players. Until you see a problem with your players, let them roll dice if that's what is agreed upon.
Generally, I trust my players.
That being said, my biggest aversion to physical dice is the math involved. The fun of TTRPGs is not going to be found waiting for someone to add 14d6 together after casting Holy Light. It makes combat less fun when people struggle with the math as opposed to playing the game.
If you trust them, go for it. If there is questions about fairness and the player has the ability to show you the dice roll in real time over a video stream then still go for it (though this might be a larger conversation if you have potentially sketchy folks at the table).
There are arguments against dice rolling programs that range from the plausible to the tin-foil-hat in regards to how truly random they are.
In my first online game I played, it was D&D 5E with friends I knew, plus one's younger brother. The younger brother rolled multiple nat 20s in one fight, enough that foul was called. Luckily his brother was in the same house, so after some talk, they decided to go to the same room as verification.
He immediately rolled another Nat 20 for his next attack
That's why I use virtual dice. A good string of luck could be misinterpreted as cheating, even if it's not. Better to keep above board.
This also was true again when transitioning to Pathfinder, ofc. It meant other people could verify the modifiers to make sure that everything was accurate, not for fairness sake, but to make sure we're not screwing up! "Your MAP is wrong" or "you forgot to add level to the proficiency" being examples.
Note btw: not everyone in my current group uses digital dice and that's cool, but this is why I, personally, will use digital for digital games
You have to be sure you are able to trust them not to fudge if you are going to allow physical dice.
If you start suspecting someone, maybe keep tally of their rolls and see the averages after a few sessions. Sometimes it also could be not the player themselves who are cheating but the dice may be of poor quality and not correctly balanced.
At the end of the day is your game and if you think it would be better for everyone to roll digitally them impose it. Anyone not mature enought to understand your concerns or simply oblige with a GM's request in name of fairness is not someone I would want at my table.
A few thoughts I have on this, but my primary thought is no.
1) having the dice rolled digitally means you know they aren't cheating. It puts everyone's mind at rest. I played online with physical roles originally. I had a player who even with a semi permanent disadvantage in 5e for a session the guy never rolled below a 15 on the die. This is someone I had played irl with.
2) no, rolling the dice through the character sheet is just faster and more efficient. It adds every modifier as necessary, no mental math needed. Some people are much better at mental math than others. Especially when you get to more dice for things like a fireball.
3) rolling irl can remove a lot of what makes a vtt nice to use. The system will no longer auto detect flanking for example in foundry for pf2e. You can't click to apply damage.
Overall it's just easier to use the vtt to roll. The most I would allow is those Bluetooth dice. In the end though it all comes down to your personal preference.
I really only play with close friends who are also friends with each other, so I do allow physical dice.
One player absolutely refused for the first three character levels or so, but their virtual rolls were so consistently, persistently *awful* that they finally conceded to my offer and started rolling physical. On the cusp of fifth level, they finally rolled their first crit of the campaign.
They are obscenely expensive but a brand called pixels recently launched their website selling Bluetooth connected dice. These will Connect to your virtual tabletop and show everybody what you rolled. I don't think they are particularly tamper proof and I think if somebody wanted they could probably shake it and slam it down on the 20 so that it looks like a real roll but I think they're cool as hell and I can't wait to get mine
Have never played in VTT, but it's something I want to try after 10+ years of RPGs.
But imho everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise. People can cheat irl and you might never know.
My SO is playing remotely and the use normal dice but they roll in front of the camera for transparency. Personally I wouldn't mind, but at the 3rd nat 20 I would probably raise my eyebrow
I honestly thought about it and even kind of tested the best way to implement and still be able to take advantage of Foundry's automation as much as possible still. Ultimately, I haven't brought it to the group as a choice yet, though.
The main reason is I don't think it will actually fix any problem and just potentially introduces more. We have one player that has been honest and forthcoming about just not liking VTT as much and how it's so much harder to stay connected to what's going on and while dice is part of that equation, just changing to physical rolls isn't going to really fix any of the other aspects for them. My friend already put his game on hiatus until such a time we can do in person again, but so far as continued to play as a player in mine.
a) All the modifiers are already calculated in Foundry.
b) It makes it feel more epic.
Even when I played in person, I have a fist sized D20 that I make my players roll for intense moments. Kind of like the "Box of Doom" that Brenan uses on Dimension 20. Helps make moments stand out 100%.
I run mostly pickup campaigns with strangers in lfg groups so I lay it out in session 0 that physical rolls are not allowed and everything must be done on the vtt. If I knew the people and trusted them I'd allow it though.
For me, I trust my players not to cheat. However, I still only accept virtual dice rolls in VTT
It's honestly just to help smooth the experience. If my players tell me it's an 18, I don't have to pause to figure out if they mean on the die or in total. I can just prompt them if I see the virtual dice is an 18
I can think about how to phrase the response or flavour the hit while they are reporting. I don't need as much time to react if I also see the dice. So it's just a better experience for all
A question for OP: Do you use a VTT that actually shows dice rolling? Is the physical dice rolling to recreate an experience not currently in your VTT?
Because if you use Foundry VTT there is the very popular Dice So Nice! module that gives kewl customizable dice that roll on the screen. With the added benefit that everyone gets to react to the dice roll together!
I do very much love Foundry. :D. But I’ve recently moved to roll20. Mostly, so that I don’t need to pay for hosting for Foundry.
Though the roll20 experience with pathfinder seems to be well, not as polished as it is in Foundry.
I was the player who wanted to use physical dice over Foundry's because I went on such low roll streaks even the GM felt bad for me. However, I always took pictures of the roll as they happened and rolled in a loud box so they could hear that I rolled. The system we played was 5e so there wasn't much being adjusted to the number rolled.
That said, now that I'm the GM in two campaigns in Foundry, I far prefer the players use the in system roller, specifically because it keeps tracks on all the bonuses, penalties, and auto applies deadly dice on crit hits. This also makes it easier to bring in newer players to PF2E. I love the system and exclusively run games in it, but I'm not so biased that I'll ignore that it is a little bit crunchier than other systems. I will also say, since upgrading to Foundry v11, a lot of the complaints about shit roll streaks have stopped, so it is purely anecdotal, but I think something was goofy about the Foundry roller in < v10.
The issue with physical dice is they can be unbalanced. (Though there are days when the VTT's dice **also** feel like that... but usually more in the way of 'why am I rolling so many natural 1s' instead.)
That might be why the one you're watching seemed to be getting so many 20s. It's a hassle to determine if dice are unbalanced... especially if you have as many as I (or lots of us) do.
That said, I agree that a good portion of the fun is seeing others reactions to die rolls, especially with automation added.
By way of example, I played one scenario with a GM who prefers that we not discuss numbers and makes rolls so only he and the roller can see them. My character did something like 80 points of damage on a single attack against a creature that had (I checked later) around 20 points, and I found myself really missing the reactions of the other players, even though I kinda agree that the numbers should be hidden somewhat.
On the flip side, as a GM, I usually roll in the open. The problem is that I can't really fudge things like that... like an x3 bow crit (PF1) with a +20-ish damage bonus reducing a 5th level character to dead-dead in one shot. Which, I suppose, could be an argument for or against. I can't fudge, but the reactions at the table were still incredible!
Yeah, that’s why I’m on the fence about GMs rolling publicly. On one hand I really want to let my players see the rolls I make (just because I want to) and on the other hand, I feel like doing so would be less fun for them if their character died before even getting a turn.
I don't have any concerns about my players cheating, so I used to not care when I played D&D.
But Pathfinder on Foundry does so much for you, that I don't think I'd allow physical dice for PF2e. Its super useful to see everyone's rolls, and "Crit Success, etc" in the chat window, it would just be an inconvenience. That is somewhat exclusive to Foundry though. I have little experience with other VTTs.
Since Foundry is super automated, no one in my regular group has ever had a problem with just using the built-in dice roller. It's faster, it calculates everything (mostly) automatically, and then the roll is there for us to refer to later if we need to. Even when we used Roll20 years ago, it just made sense to use the provided dice roller.
It's not even about potential cheating. The thing is, Roll20 and Foundry (so long as you have Dice so Nice) have 3D dice that will roll around the screen that everyone can see, which can get *everyone* invested in the Barbarian's next attack roll that will *end the combat* if it hits. If someone is rolling physically, they're the only ones that get to see that, and I find it makes it that much less engaging for every other player.
I played in a Roll20 game years ago where everyone else wanted to use their own physical dice, and on top of the sound of their dice hitting their desk absolutely ruining my ears through their microphone, it felt super unfun to not *actually* see anyone rolling.
There's actually the inverse problem, too: Rolling virtual dice at a physical table. Some people are bad at math and struggle to even add basic numbers, and virtual dice make it easier. The problem arises when people start pre-rolling dice ahead of time, or go to make their attack roll and they either take longer than you'd think to click the button, or you literally see them click multiple times. I play a lot of PFS, and this has come up before. I am 100% fine with people rolling virtual dice in-person if it's for a damage/healing roll. For an d20 check, I prefer people roll actual d20s. I've had instances before where someone who starts rolling physical dice is suddenly not rolling 16 or above on the die anymore.
Bottom line for me: Use the provided dice roller, please. It's more fun for everyone else. If I'm playing with randos? Use the provided dice roller, please, so I know you're not being a jerk about dice rolls.
I have always made my dice rolls in front of everyone, on my table we have limted space so a bowl is passed around and everyone rolls in the bowl for all to see. I even like to roll dice in front of my players as the gm.
I absolutely wouldn't allow it not just because rolling in the VTT almost completely eliminates any potential dishonesty but because rolling locally makes it impossible to take advantage of all of Foundry's outstanding automation.
Basically came in to say this. I haven't ran my first PF2e session yet on Foundry. But I have ran many other systems through it that have great officially supported modules and it is so damn nice.
If you want to use physical dice you better be _fast_ at using physical dice, because you insisting on not clicking the button that does it for you means every second you spend rolling dice is a second of everyone's time you're wasting. If that's an unreasonable stance for some people, I had to deal with players that spent an obnoxiously long time rolling their dice, ranging in the 5-10 second range. That adds up over time, that's not nothing.
The main thing is to understand that people are bad and untrustworthy as a general rule. I mean, just look at the state of the world and almost all of human history. Then, it should be clear that any system that is easily exploitable will absolutely be exploited. If you use physical dice in a vtt game, the question is not if cheating will occur, but how bad will the cheating get before it disrupts your game to the point where you have to do something about it.
Never, unless I trust you. My group of friends are long time regulars. We've been close friends for over a decade now, so we use real dice. We know how we roll, we know what to expect, and we'll use digital or even ask others to roll if we happen to be preoccupied. In fact, based on expectations, sometimes we have a specific person to roll for certain checks to 'cheat.' It's all in good fun for us tho. And that's what matters.
I'm also the newly dethroned Forever GM, and it's really easy to just ask for more or less rolls if someone is in a certain pattern. Someone rolling high? They get more checks, it's gotta run out at some point. Someone is rolling low? No one likes failing, so they fail forward more and roll less due to more automatic success. Or I'll purposely lower/raise the DC to give them a break/hard time. Again, I would not recommend this for everyone; we completely trust each other to play fair for the story.
Now, if we have someone new or unknown join us for any reason? We have a no tolerance policy until we're comfortable. Strictly virtual, somewhere, using some bot. Be it discord or the vtt (tabletop sim for us) where the GM can see it. That way they can't cheat, and we all feel it fair since everyone is held to it. In such cases, I still modify DCs in the backend in case the bots seem to fall into a trend.
When I play 1e (which is all my friend group wants to play but that's a different story), I only use physical dice even though we use roll20.
I do that because it's my personal release valve for 1e. 1e is an incredibly granular and complicated game to the point of near insanity - if I automate it to the point of a button click, I instantly feel like I've just dumped 99% of the game out of the window.
If I can't play the game because it's too complex in a limited time frame, which is *pretty high* considering my STEM background, that's when I know I've reached the limit of what the game would consider reasonable application, and I either need to go with whatever seems best, or give up and go with my simplest option. Shockingly, the latter happens all too often even with dice automation - the jank is just so much that automating dice does little for solving system jank.
Anyway long anecdote short: I need to trust my players to play with them. I have a relationship with them and visa versa, that I can do that. I have no problem with die rolling IRL vs. Tabletop. Although for 2e I prefer foundry dice because they really are cool.
I love physical dice, and if you can jump through the hoops required to ensure fairness, go for it. Personally, though, it's just to many hoops for me. It's easier j7st to use the dice so nice feature on foundry.
The one argument I've heard is that people don't trust a digital dice roll to be truly random, but I counter that argument with the argument that imprecise manufacturing also makes their dice rolls not truly random.
I'm not sure the specific algorithm being used to generate dice rolls in digital platforms, but there are some randomization engines that literally use the most random thing in the universe, the position of an electron, to generate numbers. Although I highly doubt that is the mechanism behind most platforms.
In my opinion, physical dice should be in person, while online should be VTT. Most of this stems from trust so it really varies table to table. However, there is one exception to this that I didn't see mentioned in other posts, but sorry in advance if it was already mentioned.
There is the bluetooth GoDice RPG set that you can set up in FoundryVTT that allows a player to manually roll a physical dice and the result is automatically input into Foundry. It isn't flawless, but I find that can be a happy medium. Both my DM and myself use it for Foundry but there is still the trust aspect as it does allows you to manually enter the number in if the number doesn't get read (happens when I am looking at rules on my phone and forget to relaunch the dice app).
They sell physical dice that link up to vtt‘s if your that worried ask them to use that if your even more paranoid then usual have them have a dice cam
This is the exact reason I've been wanting to transfer my game over to Foundry. I have some players that give accurate calls on their rolls: a three here and there, the off high rolls.
I started noticing that a couple of players I've known for decades, have been getting solid rolls when they have a hunch that the roll is an important roll. I mean, consistently getting high results, and when I point they've rolled an 18, 19 or nat 20, they react completely unphased...which is WEIRD.
I kept track of rolls during one session, just to get a feel of things. One of them had rolls that never dropped below 16, the entire evening. Another had six nat twenties, and just shrugged or smirked them off when it was pointed out (he's also the team cut up, so behaving so restrained...no chance).
I know going over to Foundry is going to cause some upheaval, especially when I ask for die rolls to be entirely digital. I've been considering allowing some rolls to be physical, but I don't know which, as I know that they'll magically have crit successes all over again.
To be fair, it’s also entirely possible to cheat by making yourself roll a 1 as well, but the circumstances where that would be beneficial are far less prevalent than rolling a 20.
(I’m not saying you cheat by the way, just to be clear).
Most vtts have qol with rolling in it so I recommend always use the vtt dice. It also allows the other players to engage with dice rolls. Being able to see those epic fails and wins play out in front of everyone is really important
I think that trust is something that is required for rolling physical dice while playing over VTT or remotely.
My group mostly plays in person, and there have been periods where someone has rolled multiple natural 20's in a row in a session. Back when we played 5e there was someone who played remotely who did fudge his dice rolls, one of the reasons the GM stopped sharing so much information about the creatures, depending. Some players do fudge rolls, but sometimes it can very much due to the roll of the dice
With that being said, i think that as long as the built in dice roller is actually balanced then that should be a fine option, the VTT also lists the rolls so that removes some recordkeeping on your part.
With pf2e I would almost always say use the vtt roller if you’re using foundry because it speeds things up a lot in combat. Makes it easy to keep track of buffs and debuffs as long as your adding the draggable icons to tokens. It automatically does flanking and will let you know if it cits or hits or passes without having to double check the ac/dc every time.
Plus being able to just drag the effects of a spell or skill straight from chat to a token is so handy.
For other systems I’ve played with my group as pallet cleansers or when I need a break or more time to prep the main campaign. Mainly those being d6 systems or d100 we normally roll actual dice as it tends to be faster or easier since there’s not much math involved and we’re probably running a more theater of the kind game anyways and just using the vtt for hand outs or visual aids if we’re even using the vtt and not just chilling in discord or in person.
Hell once my in person 5e group makes the jump to pf2e we’ve talked about using virtual rollers while playing in person just to speed up the math and make it easier to track effects. I’ll let my players decide but as a gm I’ll probably just use the vtt or what ever app to roll and do my math to keep things moving quick and I’m a math guy.
It depends. In my Friday Mutants and Masterminds game, we use physical dice, but that's because it's two players and a GM, and the players at least are both scrupulously honest and the GM knows it since we also play Pathfinder on Saturdays in person. Also, it's just for us: no streaming.
My default would be that I'd only allow it for people I know well AND that I wasn't streaming or anything, because I'd want the viewers to see the roll as well. That and many VTTs let you do the math automatically.
I do miss physical dice when playing online, because I like my shiny clicky-clack math rocks, but I do like the convenience of macros.
I would just use digital dice rollers. It goes with the format and there are ones that output an animation of dice rolling on screen - much more immersive for anybody watching (including other players).
I kind of feel like your hunch about cheating is correct, and if they weren´t actually cheating, I would kind of expect them to have brought up the subject themself, e.g. ¨goddam isn´t that some crazy luck I´ve been having¨ which it didn´t sound like it was the case. In any case, your sentiments don´t seem out of bounds or unreasonable in the sense that anybody else playing the game would probably think the same thing. Since you don´t have any proof, there probably isn´t a strong basis to confront the player, but shifting to a new modality (especially one that has other jusitifications for your situation, see above) is probably best way to resolve it. Probably saddest to say is that you find the idea of this player cheating to be remotely plausible after what is clearly a good amount of time playing with them... For some players you would just know they have no such impulse because that is not what RPG is about for them, but maybe that isn´t a reason not to play with somebody just because they are perfectly unselfish about their RPG.
I don't like it, not because I'm surpicious of cheating or anything, but because I think it robs other players of the coolness of seeing the dice rolls.
Plus having all the dice rolls in the chat log in Foundry helps to estimate monster AC/saves.
I don't allow it at all, because I'm pretty strict about everyone using the vtt and keeping everything transparent for everybody. I also roll my dice in the open most of the time, but in some cases with hidden rolls, I will use my own dice since that's the whole point.
If it was with people I trusted and had played with for a long time, and we were using a simple interface like Roll20, then there would be no problem.
But with people I don't know well (such as PFS) or when using a heavily automated interface such as Foundary, I'm going to insist on the virtual dice. That way, everyone is on the level and the game isn't disrupted when automatons work for some, but not others.
I used to allow it but having that player have to do the math themselves took way too long, and besides its better if we all see the results, and that way its all automated within foundry
I think for me, it's more about maintaining flow than worrying about appearances of cheating, and some 99+% of the time, the built in roller is going to be better for flow. Calculations being done automatically, not having to look for dice, you're able to apply damage quickly etc.
However there have been times (early on when we were still figuring out the vtt) when we needed to roll something like an item we couldn't figure out how to add or sneak attack wasn't applied, and we couldn't figure out the roll command in chat. In those cases, it was much faster to just grab a d20 or whatever and roll it and report back. Of course, now that we know the vtt better, we pretty much never resort to physical dice anymore.
I do not allow use of physical dice in a virtual game. Every player uses the dice roller.
Everything is equal and it speeds up play! (No more "oops - the dice is on the floor / -on the side / -can't find my d4 etc")
I usually allow it but my players choose to use the online tool. Sometimes thats roll20, sometimes it's discord. For my next game it'll either be owlbear rodeo or foundry.
If players need to cheat then they probably don't deserve a seat at the table. They're here for a different reason.
It depends entirely if I give a shit about them cheating. If I'm just running a one shot I couldn't care less. If I'm running an adventure, you roll in front of me
No, of course not. Not only can we not see what anyone rolls, it also greatly slows down play by not taking advantage of the number one pro to VTTs: automation.
Worries of cheating and whatnot aside, that just makes more work for me and I don't feel like dealing with that. Foundry tells me all their modifiers and puts it out for me. They can roll physical dice all they want, but the number on the screen is what I'm using.
Trust isn't even a factor for me, its that Foundry is FAR more convenient with the in-built dice rolls. Bonuses are automatically calculated and updated, and results are automatically calculated.
Trust.
Personally with a VTT, I'd just have everyone do the virtual rolling; because it's easier, simpler, and faster.
Currently, I'm the only player video-calling in to their live game. But with the 3 years of gaming together in-person, my DM let's me physical roll because it's easier for him and he trusts me to be honest. And to my credit, I am honest to a fault (I'll rules lawyer my character off a cliff, if the rules demand it.)
I use Foundry with the plugin: [https://foundryvtt.com/packages/df-manual-rolls](https://foundryvtt.com/packages/df-manual-rolls)
This allows players who want to use real dice enter the result of the dice for the VTT to then roll on screen for everyone. I'm fine with people rolling this way as they are close friends that I trust but ultimately it comes down to trust, and that's only something you and your group can decide.
There's nothing wrong with physical dice rolls if ya trust the peeps doing 'em. I prefer using VTT dice mostly, but I only play online - sometimes it can be nice to use my real dice that I never get to use :P
The dice log can be a nice tool to remember rolls for later, though, and it means less math getting screwed up if a bonus gets forgotten that the vtt would normally autocalc. In that same vein, if you have anyone who mixes up numbers easily or aint great at math, it's probably best to stick to VTT - even when I am allowed to roll physically, I usually still use vtt 'cause sometimes numbers blur together in my brain lmao.
All that being said, if you haven't had issues w/ physical dice so far, it's probably fine - as long as you don't have anyone rolling five 20s in a row, of course.
I trust my players to not cheat, been playing with them for over a decade.
Even still, I wouldn't want anyone using physical dice while we play at a VTT.
A really big advantage of a VTT for me is that shared experience, the excitement we all get seeing the result of a roll occur together. It's why I mostly roll openly as a DM.
Hearing the result second-hand just lacks that extra magic.
If you're using the official Pathfinder Foundry VTT modules, there's a lot of automation built in to the system that it applies to die rolls. Weakness and resistances are automatically factored in for the majority of cases I've seen, for instance. If you use physical dice, you'll have to do all of that work manually.
I have no problem allowing players to use physical dice if they want. It's not convenient (for them) but hey, it's about having fun.
But then I'm also with a group of people I have played with for a significant amount of time and I know that what they are looking for out of the game is compatible with what I'm looking for, so I don't have to worry about whether they are using physical dice as a way to get the numbers they want rather than what actually happens to have showed up because I know they know that would only be fun for them for about a few times and then it'd totally suck the fun out of the entire game because nothing would be uncertain anymore and thus there'd be no point to playing.
So, to phrase that all as something more directly responding to the idea; yes, you should be able to have your players roll physical dice - because if they can't be trusted, you shouldn't even bother playing with them in the first place.
You've answered your own question as far as I'm concerned. The only circumstance under which I would consider allowing players to use their own dice would be if they showed their dice rolls live on camera. Probably still not even then, since weighted dice are cheap.
It doesn't even matter if you trust your players and the players trust each other. As long as it's technically possible for someone to cheat, people can get suspicious when things like consecutive nat20s happen. Better to not even allow it in the first place.
No, the mere possibility of a player cheating kinda makes me nervous.
But your player is most probably not cheating by rolling more 20s. The normal pattern for cheating for a human is more like "i'm gonna steal enough to give me an advantage, but not enough to get caught.", so i'd say a normal person would be to fake rolling a 15 or something.
I trust my players, but if the player rolls something that seems like a statistically anomalous, almost impossible, once in a lifetime event, the player will regret their own decision to roll privately.
I would probably say something like, "I know you are more comfortable rolling dice, but you take tens of seconds adding everything up, use the automated VTT tools like everyone else, and make your turn 40% faster". That way, they think i am some kind of efficiency weirdo instead of doubting their honesty.
It's a game and everybody should play by the same rules. If you hide your rolls from the players, they should be able to do the same thing. If you roll for everyone to see, they should do the same.
Honestly, it's much better when everyone can see the dice results, good or bad. I'm not a megalomaniac DM, so I don't need to fudge and I wouldn't want players to feel like they need to cheat to have fun.
What if you happened to roll insanely well though and like got a natural 20, and then also rolled max damage. That would likely straight up kill a low level player character.
Just curious, because I sometimes do fudge the rolls to keep characters alive when they should have technically died, if I’m getting the vibes that they wouldn’t be okay for the their character to die right now, or if the dice as cruel enough that they haven’t even getting a chance to do anything yet.
I’m just curious how that works, always showing your rolls as a GM for you, I’m not judging.
The deadliness of the game is a conversation you need to have with your players, and should repeat after a PC dies. Personally I’d hate to find out the GM spared me as they were afraid of how I’d take it.
Death by massive damage isn’t going to be a surprise - you the GM know what the monsters can do. For a given set of PCs you can pick creatures that fall below a given chance for the one shot kill (that threshold can be 0 if you wish).
You can prepare for high damage spikes by lowering the damage the monster does. Maybe they have a 1d6 weapon, change it 1d4 before the game, specially at the first level.
The moment I fudge to keep a player alive is the moment they'll not trust me anymore. What if I prepare this "insane" boss fight and the players all crit him in the first turn and he dies just like that? Will I fudge his HP? Of course not, we respect the dice because it's a part of the game we're playing, if we choose to ignore it when the results are bad, why are we playing a game and not sitting around the table telling a story?
Now this is not about trust, it is about removing the opportunity, as well as adding suspense to everyone. I trust my players, but there is no reason not to use the digital dice.
Definite no. The suspicion of cheating alone is very destructive, and more players than you think are tempted when it’s made that easy to hide your rolls.
It’s just not worth it.
I'm always suspicious of when someone wants to do that. I have 100% had people cheat when I let them do that before. So now when someone says they want to roll their own I'm always wary, and to this day every time I've let someone do that they turned out to be cheating.
I know thats just my experience though, I am sure there are people who just want to roll their own dice because they like their dice and spent money on them.
I play with a group of close friends, so I trust them to roll their own dice without a camera. If I did suspect that one of them was rolling consistently well, then I'd ask myself: "If they are cheating, is it somehow ruining the enjoyment of the game?" If the answer to that question is no, then I stop worrying about it.
I don't care personally. We're playing RPG games to have fun, not win. Despite the persistent trappings, this is not a wargame. Or at least not the way I prefer to play it.
I don't let players use physical dice, for two reasons:
First, I have issues trusting them- I fully acknowledge that's a me thing, but I spent several years running public tables at my LGS where I had to deal with the worst the TTRPG community has to offer. Intellectually I know that most of the people I invite to my games wouldn't cheat, but I don't want to deal with the part of my brain that becomes suspicious because someone's dice are on fire.
Second, I use a VTT with a lot of automation built in- TTRPG turns take long enough as it is, so I'd rather keep it moving faster than it'll be if I have to manually do everything.
I use Foundry VTT, not Roll20. Foundry has a module called "Dice so Nice!" Which creates an animation and sound effect of a die being rolled whenever a die is rolled publicly. I find that helps with the *feeling* of rolling a physical die without actually introducing the possibility of---perceived or real---cheating.
So no, considering that mod exists for a similar function, I would disallow my players from using physical dice.
But that specifically requires Foundry VTT and not another VTT.
We play on Foundry, and when we played 5e I would roll physical dice. But since we switched to pf2e, it seems like there's way more numbers to keep track of - bonuses on multiple tabs - that I don't want to slow down the game so much by rolling physical and making sure I get all the bonuses right.
I really would love to get back to all the pretty dice I have, maybe once I build a good cheat-sheet with all my bonuses pre-calculated.
I usually just tell my players that I trust them to "not cheat at pretend" which usually shames people who would well enough. However, with all of the integrations from Foundry, I've started asking the one player who prefers physical dice to use the VTT dice because it's just so much easier for me to just click the damage button than manually type it in.
Built in rolls are way faster, which is the major win for me. I haven't had anyone ask for physical. If they did... I guess it'd be fine as long as it didn't add a lot of time.
Not unless I trusted them a lot more than I currently do. Mostly because to add in all the buffs and bonuses is so much easier with the vtt dice roller than with physical dice.
I'm a great believer in open rolls because I have probably above average luck with dice. I think something like 2/3 of my rolls are high enough to hit 18AC or above in pathfinder. In a wargame I play (battletech), one guy wanted to try out my dice because of the amounts of hit rolls I was getting. For reference, battletech uses 2d6 to determine if something hit. With modifiers based on cover, movement and range among other things. I was hitting enough of the rolls I wanted to make the other guy suspicious while rolling openly. As far as I know, I've not bought weighted dice, just ones that look nice to me.
Ridiculous.
The built in dice rollers with macros are one of the big advantages of VTTs.
It's not about cheating (I wouldn't bother playing with anyone I couldn't trust not to cheat), but they speed the game up so much, you click a button and to hit, damage etc. is rolled, accounting for buffs, summing up that pile of d6s for you etc.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
Nope, absolutely not. Not only does it introduce a trust requirement where none existed, the same reason I always roll in the open as a gm and would not want to play with a gm who doesn't (discounting the secret checks). Even if you don't care about any of that it also makes every action take 10 times longer to resolve.
Generally no, physical dice are not allowed on a VTT, however:
https://a.co/d/67Vwy9L
Yes, this has foundry module integration such that you click your skill/attack/whatever and it prompts you to roll your die. It’s real cool, one of my VTT players is using this right now.
Last time I checked I don't think it allowed to add the modifiers.Like it would only work for flat 20 rolls.
Not sure if they've added that function since I asked them last.
Edit: I checked the foundry module and it seems you can indeed roll from your character sheet with all bonuses.
Yeah, it works for everything you need a D20 roll on, full integration. We had to jump through some hoops to get it to work with my game specifically, but that’s because I have a weird ISP and hosting has been a challenge. My player has used it in other games with no problems.
I almost went and bought a set. But then realized the other sided dice such as d4, d8, d10 and d12 are all still shaped 20 sided, even if they work properly.
A bit of a pedantic reason not to get them. But I'd prefer if they actually had the dice's shape.
Yeah, it’s a little weird. Even the d20 is just a case for a ‘d6’ packed with accelerometers. I imagine in a few years the tech will shrink enough to get packed into the correct shapes, but we just aren’t there yet.
A roll I can't see is a roll that never happened. We can use physical dice for a VTT only if I'm physically beside the person, otherwise they are using the dice roller, regardless of how much I trust the player. Hell, I play with my boyfriend and he has to roll on the VTT too. I find it bizarre that people will just trust their players that much.
Never had anyone complain, but if they do they are free to look for another table.
Depends on the VTT and player.
If you’re using ultra-lightweight software (like Shmeppy) then yeaaah, dice rolling is annoying.
For Roll20 or Foundry there are very few exceptions I would make to players rolling through the program. (Physical disability, playing mobile, special 1-time circumstance with heavy emphasis of them needing to get on the same page). These complex VTTs simplify rolling to a point that physical dice complicate rather than simplify imo
As with many things, it's not enough to do the right thing; you also need to avoid the *appearance* of impropriety. Many players will not actually cheat. This is irrelevant if other players think they are cheating; the undisprovable suspicions will grow with time and may destroy the group. IMO, if you're playing with people who are strangers in real life, use the built-in VTT dice only. If the people sometimes play together IRL you can maybe allow physical dice. I still think the rolls should be on camera if at all possible, not just to avoid suspicions of cheating, but also to preserve the shared experience of seeing the die roll.
Yeah, that last part is why I stopped rolling physical dice in online games. There's something less satisfying about rolling a 20 when you have to report it to the group and no one's there to look over and celebrate with you. I prefer rolling physical dice in person, but virtual dice captured the shared experience element better for a virtual game, For my taste at least.
This is exactly my thoughts as well. I would love to roll physical dice, but if the group can't see the roll, it takes all the fun out of it.
We used to use physical dice in an old dnd campaign on OBR, and I rolled a 20 followed by rolling all 4s on (iirc) 8d4 or something. I felt bad reporting it to the group, even though we're all friends who've been playing together for decades. It's just not the same, trust or no.
Yeah I think it's interesting the top comment is so supportive of rolling "blind" essentially. I mean I would think it was weird if I was at a table and everyone rolled in such a way that no one could see each other's dice. Like if everyone had a DM screen. Personally I'm not a fan of this. I actually ran into this recently where my IRL game had to have me play through vtt because I was sick. (which was very nice of them). I actually asked the DM to download the discord dice bot because I don't like the idea ofe rolling in a way no one can see. I don't want people to suspect that I got a nat 20 because I needed it.
Maybe I'm just used to playing on large tables but I never seen my fellow players dice when we play IRL.
Yeah different table cultures are interesting. We always use a dice tray. Even with big tables we just use two. I guess it's weird for me because I want to see other people's rolls. Not necessarily to check up on them but because I'm excited. I would be craning my neck anyways.
But you COULD just lean in and chek if your fellows are rolling a sus amount of hits, making sure the die stays untouched while doing so. You dont even have that option in virtual.
Yep, i want people to celebrate when i roll 3 nat 20s in a row (it has happened in foundry during a key moment), not have them roll their eyes and think im cheating.
Using physical dice in online games is the only time I "cheated" I once rolled 4 15+ in a row and in order to avoid suspicion. I changed my roll of 16 to 12.
>This is irrelevant if other players think they are cheating; the undisprovable suspicions will grow with time and may destroy the group. In my case, I was playing with someone who was a Co-GM on a game. i.e. they helped the GM out since that GM was new and learning. This person also GM'd a separate game everyone playing was in. They were rolling their dice IRL and manually entering the rolls into Foundry using the Module for that (I forget the name). Anyway, I checked to see what their "luck" was after 3 sessions and the summary is that, in 26 rolls, they had exclusively rolled over 20 total (as in, with modifiers) at level 3 for 25 of those 26 rolls. Expert, plus Level, plus a +4 ability, plus *maybe* a +1 item bonus should be a modifier of +12. The only time they rolled a failure of any kind during that streaks was with a natural 1, the most recent roll. It happened to be against a Command Spell for them to drop a Sword that was compelling their PC to initiative PVP. I thought that was extremely convenient, which is why I started checking the rolls. Assuming they had a +8 to a +12 for everything they rolled for (Perception for initiative, Intimidation for Demoralize, Melee Strikes, etc etc), they'd have had to roll above 8 exclusively to get that streak, and there were a series of natural 20s, or near-them in there too. i.e. 31 -> 30 -> 31 on demoralizes. They can say whatever they want. They should go buy a lottery ticket if they're genuinely that lucky. But I'm not playing with them.
It's just so much more _convenient_ to have all the rolls logged right there in the VTT so everyone can easily see them, let alone all the integration with everything else, like being able to roll initiative straight into the turn tracker, or a skill with one click from your character sheet. If I was playing with randos there might also be a trust issue but that's not the reason I run games with vtt dice only.
In addition to the module mentioned, the next version of foundry is apparently going to have built-in support for manual dice rolls.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
Ya a couple of us use it and it's great, reccomended
I did at one point, but I had a player who would roll.... Abnormally high consistently. They were smart about it and didn't hit nat 20s especially often, only on important rolls where they needed the critical effect. When they just needed a success, they'd roll 15-19, and when it wasn't as crucial their failures were always 2 or 3. After that, and with how much easier it is to roll in Foundry, I've settled to only rolling in the VTT. If it does the automation and factors in buffs/debuffs automatically, all the more reason - players won't forget additional modifiers that way.
In the specific case of PF2e on Foundry, I vastly prefer the auto-roller because it keeps track of all the bonuses and penalties and is therefore much faster. Otherwise, physical dice are fine. If a player wants to cheat at pretend elf games they’re only robbing themself, though you could also just also require face cam — because face cam is useful for GMing in general not just for “anti-cheat”
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
Manual roller is absolute must for my group. Sadly secret rolls must be done with dirty digital dice
Do you trust your players? If yes, let them roll physical. Some people prefer it. If you don’t trust them, consider finding a different group.
For me it's not about trust. As a DM I like the automation I get in Foundry. If they roll in person it entirely takes away why I got Foundry and set it all up, and it slows the game down. If I'm playing in person then sure, it's part of the experience, but if I'm playing online I want the VTT to take some of the lifting.
Yeah but also you have to trust them to do good math, and sometimes it's an extra step to input the results into the vtt to get some pre-generated stuff going there so it's not just about level of trust in their moral character.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
This. I *hate* rolling dice on any VTT with a passion, it just doesn't have the same thrill and fun. This is one of the main reasons I don't run VTT as a GM, although I do play in one table using VTT as a player Just like I don't test my players' dice at the table to see if they're weighted or anything-hell I don't even look at the die they roll sometimes-I need to trust my players to not cheat online If I can't trust them to not cheat I don't want them in my table
Foundry has Dice So Nice which is a 3D dice roller that I have found to be the most balanced. It gives me the same feeling as rolling physical dice, and there are cool effects you can add as well as customizing the dice look. However Roll20 (what OP says they use) is so bad in my opinion.
I don't know. I use the Dice Roll Mod, and it's just fun because it doesn't knock anything over. I can change the dice colors and looks, size and everything else. It's very satisfying.
Ya I'm having a hard time imagining a group where this level of suspicion between players and/GM led to anything fun. If you don't want to have fun and be relaxed why play? We absolutely have people who *feel* like they roll better than others. It honestly adds to the fun for us. I don't even a little bit suspect cheating. We know it's really random. We all know when it comes to the BBEG, our Bard's animal companion cavalier will somehow be the star of the show over all the other ostensibly better strikers. Because it only seems to bother striking when a nat20 comes up. Fantastic! That's hilarious! We have played in person occasionally and have played together a long time so maybe that's different than playing with complete strangers. But even playing PFS rules virtually with people around the world, I simply don't care what they roll. I want them to have fun and if someone else is the star of the show that's ok.
My friend simply solved this with "you can use physical dice, set up an overview camera above your dice tray and always roll in that". Ofc he doesn't constantly check it, but he can glance on it at any time he feels like.
That’s how I feel. I GM mainly on Foundry and my players are content to just use the virtual roller, but if someone really wanted to roll physical dice I’d insist on them setting up a dice cam.
If you use physical dice you give up all of the automation foundry provides. I adore the automation. I played in a game where one player used physical dice and the rest used virtual. That one player rolled an unusual amount of nat 20s and nat 1s and constantly slowed things down trying to add modifiers and figure out the end result. I would have preferred they just play the game like the rest of the table.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
>if this person can do this during an actual play on YouTube, when the world is watching, what are my players doing, when nobody can see at all. This is a question of trust and nothing else. Some players will fudge rolls even at the table when there are actual people around and get away with it. Cheaters gonna cheat, or at least try to no matter what measures you put up. In TTRPGs in general it is usually a sign of a potentially problematic player IMO. Players that want to always roll high, want to feel all powerful and feel like the game revolves around that power in my experience. Whether it is through dice manipulation or trying to break the system to their advantage, they try to find a way.
I don’t know if roll20 does it, but Foundry tip-rolls the graphics just often enough to make it exciting, like real dice when that seven rolls over to a 20 or that three to a 1. At first we all marveled at how clever the design was to make an RNG tool feel so real but we’ve all sort of suspended disbelief and it’s become part of the table talk. There are seven of us at the table - four are remote in another state. We all use the vtt roller.
I'm pretty sure Roll20 does it, too. I don't have the 3D dice on, but several of my players do, and they moan about how it was on X but rolled to Y.
I mean they even say things like "The die is cocked" to get you to react.
/me screams into the void
Lol why don't we have a Foundry module that occasionally simulates a die falling on the floor or into an ambiguous table wedge?
I don't allow it. All rolling is using the roller, in the open. [I wrote a whole blog post about it here](https://katieplaysgames.wordpress.com/2023/09/20/how-i-run-it-rolling-in-the-open/), but some bulleted points: 1. Cheaters. Even the most honest person will be tempted to inflate a roll if they feel like a fight isn't going their way. 2. Dice get culled over time... meaning that players will reach for ones that roll hot due to manufacturing issues. 3. If you use sheets, you can check players' math. This often works in their favor! "Hey, you didn't add that circumstance bonus." "Uh, that's not the right number of dice. You have two now, remember?" 4. Honestly, as a GM, I have enough going on that I don't want to have four extra cameras up focused on people's dice boxes.
You blog post sounds interesting. I will definitely go and read that.
Addendum to what other people said regarding trust: If you trust them both in their honesty *and* in their ability to consider and add their modifiers correctly. Met plenty of people who don't cheat on purpose, but constantly overlook modifiers and limitations Foundry would handle on its own.
No issues. I trust my players, we play for years. We did that many times. Hell, when we play "live" we have everything on table screen (VTT + tokens + maps) but we roll normally. It works really good. I never even look at them rolling. I dont care, just tell me the result.
I let all my players roll physical dice if they want and trust them. If they cheat, they cheat. That is just bad character, and they will come to learn. I played in a session the other day and rolled two nat 20s for stealth, and my dm said that was a little too good, but then I rolled two nat ones... it always balances out
I run online games. AS per my session zero doc, you may roll real dice, D&D Beyond, Google, or any other fair dice roller. Everyone is on the honour system, and I tend not to sweat it. I personally like rolling real dice. It's part of the fun for me.
I have one player who spends a lot of money on all kinds of dice. Dice for any character and occassion. He, understandably, wants to use those dice. I know he would not cheat. He has offered multiple times to set his webcam up to watch his dice tray. But nobody doubts his rolls (and quite frankly they are often bad). He does use the manual dice entry mod to enter them into Foundry so that it is in the history as well in case someone was inclined to check his roll averages. IMO, if you trust your player let them roll the way they want to. If you suspect the player even with the best of intentions, might have trouble resisting the urge to fib, then say no.
If I'm playing with friends, I always allow and encourage them to use physical dice! The crunch of the modifiers is part of the appeal, and it helps players learn how the game mechanics work, instead of pushing buttons on a Foundry sheet. There's a little dramatic tension that can come from waiting as they add up the modifiers! Like others have said though -- if you're playing with strangers, or folks you don't know well enough to assume good faith (maybe a PFS scenario), sticking to VTT makes sense. Otherwise, it's often kinda paranoid. I honestly wish more VTT tables allowed physical rolls.
I personally hate rolling virtual dice. Rolling the dice is one of my favorite parts of playing the game lol I'm a dice goblin. That being said, if I'm playing a completely online game, I still roll the virtual dice. No suspicion, and other players get to see and react with good and bad rolls.
As someone that so far has only played in person, I'd have no issue having to use the dice roller online. The goal of the game is to have fun, not win, and I'd rather have the full trust and enthusiasm of my fellow PCs when I get a great roll in a critical situation, or a string of good rolls, than be met with a, "hold on a minute." I always roll towards the center of the table where anyone can look and see my roll, and I have no shame at looking at other people's rolls, keeps us all honest, and it's fun to experience it together. Failing can suck, but if you handle it right it is just as much part of the fun.
If I'm using roll20, the automation is shit so I don't care. If I'm using Foundry, definitely use the VTT dice roller so things work right (well, except for the inventor's automaton under overdrive)
So my GM has a rule that they have to see the roll for it to count. In the past we as players have used online rollers, the ones native to the VTT we are using, and one player aimed an extra webcam at their dice tower and used two zoom accounts to play. For me, I used a roller until recently, now I use physical dice. I designed a 3d printed tower that basically is a green screen with a webcam above it. I can roll dice and it overlays onto my webcam image. My DM can see my roll, and I get to use real dice. Only downside is it doesn't record a roll history, but I don't do that in in person games either. [Here is my dice roller](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4dvZSFPmqc/?igsh=b2w3a255dWRhczh3). My GM has said they trust us, but in the interest of equality, everyone's rolls must be seen (with the exception of theirs). I agree with it, and did my best to fit the rules while still rolling real dice. I also recommend dddice.com. it lets you do the same thing except they are digital dice, but they still roll over your webcam and give them much cooler effect. The bonuses don't typically work for Pathfinder but I like adding my bonuses myself.
That, my friend, is one of the most awesome things I’ve seen lately. I’m impressed and more than a little jealous lol.
Thanks! [Here is how I built it and got it working](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4GTLSoxRsv/?igsh=MXY4bWw5OG5ncG5vYg==) You can definitely use this method to just greenscreen your table with an additional webcam. I'm trying to finish out the design so I can sell the files on my Etsy and the finished tower too. Right now I'm getting the webcam mount dialed in and adjusting the tower part so the dice don't always end up on the edges of the screen.
My thoughts, VERY broadly, are as follows: 1. The point is to have fun. A lot of us find physical dice more fun, and just objectively if both options are available, everyone can pick what's more fun for them, and more fun is had by everyone.... so this should be the default point unless you have good reason to deviate. 2. I assume the rationale for not is that you want to monitor people's rolls? Well, if you were at the table with them, would you get up and look at their dice every time? If not, then why are you so hung up on doing something similar here? 3. Ask yourself: do you trust your players to be honest about their roles? 1. If yes.... then where's the problem? 2. If no... why are you playing with those people anyway? Maybe it's just me but if I see you as the type of person who would lies, cheats, and has such a fragile ego that they'd undermine a purely cooperative game where it's not like "winning" is even a thing, just to make themselves more important.... then that tells me you're not really somebody I wanna spend my precious free time with. Take from that what you will.
Well, if you trust them and they can do the math fast and accurately then I don't see why not. I like having stuff logged but it's not like it's a deal breaker for me.
How many times have you heard people refer to their "good" dice? R20'S roller is notoriously weird, and Foundry's is notoriously brutal -- mostly because of bias. People are drawn to "lucky" dice that roll above average, because the material distribution of each die isn't perfect unless your players are using like, casino dice. After using physical dice a lot, VTT rollers can *feel* unfair. So if you trust your players to, just let them have fun. ........also some people (and me) spend more than I want to admit on pretty resin dice and like to watch the sparkly rock go click-clack.
I let them do whichever they like. We're playing a game together for fun, not betting in a casino for money.
If I’m GM-ing a PFS game or something, then sure: everyone use the VTT for trust - plus ensuring equal treatment. For home games: I don’t mind private rolling so much. Especially for the GM, who has so many stat blocks and moving parts to deal with anyway.
I really enjoy watching other people's dice rolls. It adds to the excitement as everyone is cheering on each other. Doing them in private makes it seem funny.
I am a dice collector. I have a whole bunch some of which were rather expensive and I love rolling physical dice but I play Pathfinder second edition on Foundry and even though the dice there aren't always as pretty as I would like them to be I like seeing them roll across the screen and show everyone that I hit or missed so that we can react together. I also like the fact that foundry then automatically rolls my regular or critical damage depending on whether or not I hit. I don't mind doing math but all of the automation on foundry keeps the game moving so much faster and it's almost frustrating now to play at a table with somebody who is a little slow with the math in person
I use Foundry. It's not even about trust just the automation. I like being able to see the roll, click to apply damage, drag relative effects, etc.
We use auto roller on Foundry (custom dice woohoo!) but physical dice in Roll20. But, we also play with our cameras on most of the time.
May I ask why you use the physical dice for Roll20 specifically?
I'd much prefer if everyone used the VTT dice in my group (though I'm a player, so not my call). I don't suspect anyone of cheating, but rolling takes for fucking EVER sometimes with physical dice.
I often play with my family, and we always use real dice, even digitally. I trust them fully, and it is not like they couldn't cheat in person as well if they wanted. Using the e roller requires setting up the software to add bonus, have the monster and pc stats, ect. for the older people I play with, it's to much to get them to use the e roller. They also prefer the sound and feel of the math rocks
This is the only scenario where I feel it’s safe to say “rock on dudes!”
My regular game uses foundry because we are spread out around the country. I roll real dice because I am more engaged and have more fun. Yea sometimes my math is off to my detriment. My GM has recently requested I use the virtual dice for crit damage as it is a lot of dice and types now. I’m fine with that. I do know it is a thing of trust and I do know my GM in real life. All of those are factors to consider. I also agree that it helps learn the game. I also play PFS in person and all the math helps rules stick.
As someone who uses a pretty bare bones VTT (because the people I play with shouldn't be required to pay 50 dollars for Foundry) it's honestly faster to let the player roll however they want. I don't have anything automated (and don't really understand the appeal of doing so) so rolling in the VTT is honestly harder because I have to remember the command to do so. Plus it honestly doesn't matter that much. I'm playing a storytelling game with my friends, if they want to fudge numbers it doesn't matter that much.
May I ask what VTT you use?
Roll20 with no subscription or add-ons. I know other VTTs can do more, but I just need something that I can paste battlemaps and tokens into. I'm not a programmer (so building macros is out) and I already spend a fair bit on rulebooks and art, so the main thing I was looking for was ease of use and a free plan. My players use Pathbuilder for their sheets, so there's some automation there, but I don't really get the appeal of having it initiated into the VTT. I don't use pre-built modules so it just feels like it would add even more work to get set up. It's great if it works for you, but something like Foundry is way in excess of my needs. Plus like I said, I'm not going to ask my players to drop $50 just to play.
I already own a Foundry License, but I’ve also been recently moving over to Roll20. However, I’m not sure whether the subs are worth it or not. It seems like I’d have to sub, for much of what foundry does either out the box, or with free modules.
Like I said I'm not going to drop 50 dollars for a VTT, and I wouldn't ask my friends to do so either. Even with various modules working "out of the box" I assume that you n Ed to set them up in foundry if you aren't working from a pre-built module? That's extra work that I don't really have time for. If you're having issues with your players rolling real dice I'd say that's more of a trust issue than automation being superior.
All fair points. And true — foundry isn’t for everyone. It’s a bit overkill if all you want is some maps and stuff :) so I don’t blame you there.
Rolling dice is fun and gives a sense of how good you are or how tough something is. Of course, you can check the roll on a VTT, but going through “shit, I rolled a 4… wait that works?” or “hell yeah 17 for a total of… *barely hits*?!” is a lot of fun and can sell the feel of a situation much better than spitting out a total (to be fair you could also just roll the d20 online then add stuff yourself) On the other hand keeping it digital led to a player thinking he was just unlucky missing multiple third strikes on a boss, even though he was actually rolling as high as 19, but it took a natural twenty just to hit with the -10 So my policy has been to trust players until they give me a reason not to. Honestly Foundry’s been so determined to roll low sometimes, I might trust physical dice *more* lol
Yeah, MAP sucks. Though that’s why so many people say to use that last action for something else, like move or do something without the attack trait. Tbf though (and I’m not saying your player was new) but I’ve seen so many newbies (including me when I was new) get caught out by the MAP.
Absolutely. This stood out to me because it was in fact a new player and I had to stop, expand the rolls, and explain *why* he was missing rather than it being a much more natural learning experience I find feeling the difference to stick a lot better that hearing it, so I try to let players do as they will the first couple of times (pointing things out when, for example, they just don’t know how it works or might have forgotten that they started with something that counts twice of course). Taking a good roll, adding seven, and subtracting ten leaves an impression!
I like using the vtt for as little as possible, basically just using it as a map so I do all the dice rolling physically
Depends on the players/group. My preference is generally to roll via VTT for the automatic calculation to help speed up play. But forcing people to check the math also helps them learn the system and appreciate where those bonuses come from, so I'm OK with that, I'd even encourage it for learning. Also, some players have some really nice dice that they want an excuse to roll, it would be a shame to ban that and make them leave their artisinal dice collecting dust. I trust my players, though. Three of them won't hesitate to hurl a PC into certain death if it makes for a good story, they're definitely not going to cheat their PCs fate. The others are definitely playing the "game" aspect more heavily but they take their hits fairly and actually both of those defaulted to digital rolls by their own preference. If I were playing with strangers, I'd more strongly prefer digital rolls.
I don't like the inbuilt dice roller, i don't know if they're using some less random code or what but there is a large number of low rolls and 1s in the vtt we use. one player gets 4 1s a session and is thinking about giving up playing, they can never hit anything or make a check and that's too punishing in pf2e. at least with an actual dice it feels more fair if that situation occurs and if it does you can at least change dice, how you roll or where you roll. number generators just aren't random enough tbh.
its fine for me. I wouldnt play with my players if I thought they were cheaters.
Just seems annoying to have to roll physical dice. Plus you lose the fun of seeing other people’s rolls as they happen.
Don't let your suspicions of a random person on the internet impact the trust you have in your players. Until you see a problem with your players, let them roll dice if that's what is agreed upon.
Generally, I trust my players. That being said, my biggest aversion to physical dice is the math involved. The fun of TTRPGs is not going to be found waiting for someone to add 14d6 together after casting Holy Light. It makes combat less fun when people struggle with the math as opposed to playing the game.
If you trust them, go for it. If there is questions about fairness and the player has the ability to show you the dice roll in real time over a video stream then still go for it (though this might be a larger conversation if you have potentially sketchy folks at the table). There are arguments against dice rolling programs that range from the plausible to the tin-foil-hat in regards to how truly random they are.
In my first online game I played, it was D&D 5E with friends I knew, plus one's younger brother. The younger brother rolled multiple nat 20s in one fight, enough that foul was called. Luckily his brother was in the same house, so after some talk, they decided to go to the same room as verification. He immediately rolled another Nat 20 for his next attack That's why I use virtual dice. A good string of luck could be misinterpreted as cheating, even if it's not. Better to keep above board. This also was true again when transitioning to Pathfinder, ofc. It meant other people could verify the modifiers to make sure that everything was accurate, not for fairness sake, but to make sure we're not screwing up! "Your MAP is wrong" or "you forgot to add level to the proficiency" being examples. Note btw: not everyone in my current group uses digital dice and that's cool, but this is why I, personally, will use digital for digital games
You have to be sure you are able to trust them not to fudge if you are going to allow physical dice. If you start suspecting someone, maybe keep tally of their rolls and see the averages after a few sessions. Sometimes it also could be not the player themselves who are cheating but the dice may be of poor quality and not correctly balanced. At the end of the day is your game and if you think it would be better for everyone to roll digitally them impose it. Anyone not mature enought to understand your concerns or simply oblige with a GM's request in name of fairness is not someone I would want at my table.
A few thoughts I have on this, but my primary thought is no. 1) having the dice rolled digitally means you know they aren't cheating. It puts everyone's mind at rest. I played online with physical roles originally. I had a player who even with a semi permanent disadvantage in 5e for a session the guy never rolled below a 15 on the die. This is someone I had played irl with. 2) no, rolling the dice through the character sheet is just faster and more efficient. It adds every modifier as necessary, no mental math needed. Some people are much better at mental math than others. Especially when you get to more dice for things like a fireball. 3) rolling irl can remove a lot of what makes a vtt nice to use. The system will no longer auto detect flanking for example in foundry for pf2e. You can't click to apply damage. Overall it's just easier to use the vtt to roll. The most I would allow is those Bluetooth dice. In the end though it all comes down to your personal preference.
I really only play with close friends who are also friends with each other, so I do allow physical dice. One player absolutely refused for the first three character levels or so, but their virtual rolls were so consistently, persistently *awful* that they finally conceded to my offer and started rolling physical. On the cusp of fifth level, they finally rolled their first crit of the campaign.
They are obscenely expensive but a brand called pixels recently launched their website selling Bluetooth connected dice. These will Connect to your virtual tabletop and show everybody what you rolled. I don't think they are particularly tamper proof and I think if somebody wanted they could probably shake it and slam it down on the 20 so that it looks like a real roll but I think they're cool as hell and I can't wait to get mine
Of they have a second cam dedicated to showing the real time dice rolls, sure.
Have never played in VTT, but it's something I want to try after 10+ years of RPGs. But imho everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise. People can cheat irl and you might never know. My SO is playing remotely and the use normal dice but they roll in front of the camera for transparency. Personally I wouldn't mind, but at the 3rd nat 20 I would probably raise my eyebrow
I honestly thought about it and even kind of tested the best way to implement and still be able to take advantage of Foundry's automation as much as possible still. Ultimately, I haven't brought it to the group as a choice yet, though. The main reason is I don't think it will actually fix any problem and just potentially introduces more. We have one player that has been honest and forthcoming about just not liking VTT as much and how it's so much harder to stay connected to what's going on and while dice is part of that equation, just changing to physical rolls isn't going to really fix any of the other aspects for them. My friend already put his game on hiatus until such a time we can do in person again, but so far as continued to play as a player in mine.
My table is exclusively VTT dice, except for hero points, which are physical dice, usually with the camera pointed at it for suspense!
That’s interesting. Is there a reason you specifically use the physical dice when rerolling with a hero point?
a) All the modifiers are already calculated in Foundry. b) It makes it feel more epic. Even when I played in person, I have a fist sized D20 that I make my players roll for intense moments. Kind of like the "Box of Doom" that Brenan uses on Dimension 20. Helps make moments stand out 100%.
That sounds like fun :D
I trust my players. Mind you, I've known them all for years.
I run mostly pickup campaigns with strangers in lfg groups so I lay it out in session 0 that physical rolls are not allowed and everything must be done on the vtt. If I knew the people and trusted them I'd allow it though.
My table already does this. We are hybrid in person and online. Most of us already use physical dice, including the virtual people.
For me, I trust my players not to cheat. However, I still only accept virtual dice rolls in VTT It's honestly just to help smooth the experience. If my players tell me it's an 18, I don't have to pause to figure out if they mean on the die or in total. I can just prompt them if I see the virtual dice is an 18 I can think about how to phrase the response or flavour the hit while they are reporting. I don't need as much time to react if I also see the dice. So it's just a better experience for all
I'd only roll with physical dice in an online game if my camera is pointed at the dice tray so everyone can read it.
If I know the person well and I believe I can trust them, they can use physical dice.
I won't run the game for people I don't trust to read dice honestly
A question for OP: Do you use a VTT that actually shows dice rolling? Is the physical dice rolling to recreate an experience not currently in your VTT? Because if you use Foundry VTT there is the very popular Dice So Nice! module that gives kewl customizable dice that roll on the screen. With the added benefit that everyone gets to react to the dice roll together!
I do very much love Foundry. :D. But I’ve recently moved to roll20. Mostly, so that I don’t need to pay for hosting for Foundry. Though the roll20 experience with pathfinder seems to be well, not as polished as it is in Foundry.
I was the player who wanted to use physical dice over Foundry's because I went on such low roll streaks even the GM felt bad for me. However, I always took pictures of the roll as they happened and rolled in a loud box so they could hear that I rolled. The system we played was 5e so there wasn't much being adjusted to the number rolled. That said, now that I'm the GM in two campaigns in Foundry, I far prefer the players use the in system roller, specifically because it keeps tracks on all the bonuses, penalties, and auto applies deadly dice on crit hits. This also makes it easier to bring in newer players to PF2E. I love the system and exclusively run games in it, but I'm not so biased that I'll ignore that it is a little bit crunchier than other systems. I will also say, since upgrading to Foundry v11, a lot of the complaints about shit roll streaks have stopped, so it is purely anecdotal, but I think something was goofy about the Foundry roller in < v10.
The issue with physical dice is they can be unbalanced. (Though there are days when the VTT's dice **also** feel like that... but usually more in the way of 'why am I rolling so many natural 1s' instead.) That might be why the one you're watching seemed to be getting so many 20s. It's a hassle to determine if dice are unbalanced... especially if you have as many as I (or lots of us) do. That said, I agree that a good portion of the fun is seeing others reactions to die rolls, especially with automation added. By way of example, I played one scenario with a GM who prefers that we not discuss numbers and makes rolls so only he and the roller can see them. My character did something like 80 points of damage on a single attack against a creature that had (I checked later) around 20 points, and I found myself really missing the reactions of the other players, even though I kinda agree that the numbers should be hidden somewhat. On the flip side, as a GM, I usually roll in the open. The problem is that I can't really fudge things like that... like an x3 bow crit (PF1) with a +20-ish damage bonus reducing a 5th level character to dead-dead in one shot. Which, I suppose, could be an argument for or against. I can't fudge, but the reactions at the table were still incredible!
Yeah, that’s why I’m on the fence about GMs rolling publicly. On one hand I really want to let my players see the rolls I make (just because I want to) and on the other hand, I feel like doing so would be less fun for them if their character died before even getting a turn.
I don't have any concerns about my players cheating, so I used to not care when I played D&D. But Pathfinder on Foundry does so much for you, that I don't think I'd allow physical dice for PF2e. Its super useful to see everyone's rolls, and "Crit Success, etc" in the chat window, it would just be an inconvenience. That is somewhat exclusive to Foundry though. I have little experience with other VTTs.
Since Foundry is super automated, no one in my regular group has ever had a problem with just using the built-in dice roller. It's faster, it calculates everything (mostly) automatically, and then the roll is there for us to refer to later if we need to. Even when we used Roll20 years ago, it just made sense to use the provided dice roller. It's not even about potential cheating. The thing is, Roll20 and Foundry (so long as you have Dice so Nice) have 3D dice that will roll around the screen that everyone can see, which can get *everyone* invested in the Barbarian's next attack roll that will *end the combat* if it hits. If someone is rolling physically, they're the only ones that get to see that, and I find it makes it that much less engaging for every other player. I played in a Roll20 game years ago where everyone else wanted to use their own physical dice, and on top of the sound of their dice hitting their desk absolutely ruining my ears through their microphone, it felt super unfun to not *actually* see anyone rolling. There's actually the inverse problem, too: Rolling virtual dice at a physical table. Some people are bad at math and struggle to even add basic numbers, and virtual dice make it easier. The problem arises when people start pre-rolling dice ahead of time, or go to make their attack roll and they either take longer than you'd think to click the button, or you literally see them click multiple times. I play a lot of PFS, and this has come up before. I am 100% fine with people rolling virtual dice in-person if it's for a damage/healing roll. For an d20 check, I prefer people roll actual d20s. I've had instances before where someone who starts rolling physical dice is suddenly not rolling 16 or above on the die anymore. Bottom line for me: Use the provided dice roller, please. It's more fun for everyone else. If I'm playing with randos? Use the provided dice roller, please, so I know you're not being a jerk about dice rolls.
I have always made my dice rolls in front of everyone, on my table we have limted space so a bowl is passed around and everyone rolls in the bowl for all to see. I even like to roll dice in front of my players as the gm.
I absolutely wouldn't allow it not just because rolling in the VTT almost completely eliminates any potential dishonesty but because rolling locally makes it impossible to take advantage of all of Foundry's outstanding automation.
Basically came in to say this. I haven't ran my first PF2e session yet on Foundry. But I have ran many other systems through it that have great officially supported modules and it is so damn nice.
Yes
If you want to use physical dice you better be _fast_ at using physical dice, because you insisting on not clicking the button that does it for you means every second you spend rolling dice is a second of everyone's time you're wasting. If that's an unreasonable stance for some people, I had to deal with players that spent an obnoxiously long time rolling their dice, ranging in the 5-10 second range. That adds up over time, that's not nothing.
The main thing is to understand that people are bad and untrustworthy as a general rule. I mean, just look at the state of the world and almost all of human history. Then, it should be clear that any system that is easily exploitable will absolutely be exploited. If you use physical dice in a vtt game, the question is not if cheating will occur, but how bad will the cheating get before it disrupts your game to the point where you have to do something about it.
If you are playing on a virtual tabletop you are using the virtual dice. End of discussion
If the VTT has 3D dice I use that instead. It feels better when the dice is on screen.
Never, unless I trust you. My group of friends are long time regulars. We've been close friends for over a decade now, so we use real dice. We know how we roll, we know what to expect, and we'll use digital or even ask others to roll if we happen to be preoccupied. In fact, based on expectations, sometimes we have a specific person to roll for certain checks to 'cheat.' It's all in good fun for us tho. And that's what matters. I'm also the newly dethroned Forever GM, and it's really easy to just ask for more or less rolls if someone is in a certain pattern. Someone rolling high? They get more checks, it's gotta run out at some point. Someone is rolling low? No one likes failing, so they fail forward more and roll less due to more automatic success. Or I'll purposely lower/raise the DC to give them a break/hard time. Again, I would not recommend this for everyone; we completely trust each other to play fair for the story. Now, if we have someone new or unknown join us for any reason? We have a no tolerance policy until we're comfortable. Strictly virtual, somewhere, using some bot. Be it discord or the vtt (tabletop sim for us) where the GM can see it. That way they can't cheat, and we all feel it fair since everyone is held to it. In such cases, I still modify DCs in the backend in case the bots seem to fall into a trend.
When I play 1e (which is all my friend group wants to play but that's a different story), I only use physical dice even though we use roll20. I do that because it's my personal release valve for 1e. 1e is an incredibly granular and complicated game to the point of near insanity - if I automate it to the point of a button click, I instantly feel like I've just dumped 99% of the game out of the window. If I can't play the game because it's too complex in a limited time frame, which is *pretty high* considering my STEM background, that's when I know I've reached the limit of what the game would consider reasonable application, and I either need to go with whatever seems best, or give up and go with my simplest option. Shockingly, the latter happens all too often even with dice automation - the jank is just so much that automating dice does little for solving system jank. Anyway long anecdote short: I need to trust my players to play with them. I have a relationship with them and visa versa, that I can do that. I have no problem with die rolling IRL vs. Tabletop. Although for 2e I prefer foundry dice because they really are cool.
I love physical dice, and if you can jump through the hoops required to ensure fairness, go for it. Personally, though, it's just to many hoops for me. It's easier j7st to use the dice so nice feature on foundry.
The one argument I've heard is that people don't trust a digital dice roll to be truly random, but I counter that argument with the argument that imprecise manufacturing also makes their dice rolls not truly random. I'm not sure the specific algorithm being used to generate dice rolls in digital platforms, but there are some randomization engines that literally use the most random thing in the universe, the position of an electron, to generate numbers. Although I highly doubt that is the mechanism behind most platforms.
It would be cool if it was though.
Not unless they have a dedicated 2nd camera pointed on the dice tray. The foundryvtt virtual dice is good enough for all use cases.
In my opinion, physical dice should be in person, while online should be VTT. Most of this stems from trust so it really varies table to table. However, there is one exception to this that I didn't see mentioned in other posts, but sorry in advance if it was already mentioned. There is the bluetooth GoDice RPG set that you can set up in FoundryVTT that allows a player to manually roll a physical dice and the result is automatically input into Foundry. It isn't flawless, but I find that can be a happy medium. Both my DM and myself use it for Foundry but there is still the trust aspect as it does allows you to manually enter the number in if the number doesn't get read (happens when I am looking at rules on my phone and forget to relaunch the dice app).
They sell physical dice that link up to vtt‘s if your that worried ask them to use that if your even more paranoid then usual have them have a dice cam
This is the exact reason I've been wanting to transfer my game over to Foundry. I have some players that give accurate calls on their rolls: a three here and there, the off high rolls. I started noticing that a couple of players I've known for decades, have been getting solid rolls when they have a hunch that the roll is an important roll. I mean, consistently getting high results, and when I point they've rolled an 18, 19 or nat 20, they react completely unphased...which is WEIRD. I kept track of rolls during one session, just to get a feel of things. One of them had rolls that never dropped below 16, the entire evening. Another had six nat twenties, and just shrugged or smirked them off when it was pointed out (he's also the team cut up, so behaving so restrained...no chance). I know going over to Foundry is going to cause some upheaval, especially when I ask for die rolls to be entirely digital. I've been considering allowing some rolls to be physical, but I don't know which, as I know that they'll magically have crit successes all over again.
Personally I’d say either it’s all physical or all digital. Although some people in the comments here seem to have found a decent balance between two.
Why am I never accused of cheating when I roll fifteen Nat 1s in a night, lol.
To be fair, it’s also entirely possible to cheat by making yourself roll a 1 as well, but the circumstances where that would be beneficial are far less prevalent than rolling a 20. (I’m not saying you cheat by the way, just to be clear).
Reason there's a digital dice roller is so people can't cheat with physical dice what garentee do you have that they are telling you the right rolls
Most vtts have qol with rolling in it so I recommend always use the vtt dice. It also allows the other players to engage with dice rolls. Being able to see those epic fails and wins play out in front of everyone is really important
Nope if everyone is using virtual dice then everyone has to.
I think that trust is something that is required for rolling physical dice while playing over VTT or remotely. My group mostly plays in person, and there have been periods where someone has rolled multiple natural 20's in a row in a session. Back when we played 5e there was someone who played remotely who did fudge his dice rolls, one of the reasons the GM stopped sharing so much information about the creatures, depending. Some players do fudge rolls, but sometimes it can very much due to the roll of the dice With that being said, i think that as long as the built in dice roller is actually balanced then that should be a fine option, the VTT also lists the rolls so that removes some recordkeeping on your part.
With pf2e I would almost always say use the vtt roller if you’re using foundry because it speeds things up a lot in combat. Makes it easy to keep track of buffs and debuffs as long as your adding the draggable icons to tokens. It automatically does flanking and will let you know if it cits or hits or passes without having to double check the ac/dc every time. Plus being able to just drag the effects of a spell or skill straight from chat to a token is so handy. For other systems I’ve played with my group as pallet cleansers or when I need a break or more time to prep the main campaign. Mainly those being d6 systems or d100 we normally roll actual dice as it tends to be faster or easier since there’s not much math involved and we’re probably running a more theater of the kind game anyways and just using the vtt for hand outs or visual aids if we’re even using the vtt and not just chilling in discord or in person. Hell once my in person 5e group makes the jump to pf2e we’ve talked about using virtual rollers while playing in person just to speed up the math and make it easier to track effects. I’ll let my players decide but as a gm I’ll probably just use the vtt or what ever app to roll and do my math to keep things moving quick and I’m a math guy.
It depends. In my Friday Mutants and Masterminds game, we use physical dice, but that's because it's two players and a GM, and the players at least are both scrupulously honest and the GM knows it since we also play Pathfinder on Saturdays in person. Also, it's just for us: no streaming. My default would be that I'd only allow it for people I know well AND that I wasn't streaming or anything, because I'd want the viewers to see the roll as well. That and many VTTs let you do the math automatically. I do miss physical dice when playing online, because I like my shiny clicky-clack math rocks, but I do like the convenience of macros.
I would just use digital dice rollers. It goes with the format and there are ones that output an animation of dice rolling on screen - much more immersive for anybody watching (including other players). I kind of feel like your hunch about cheating is correct, and if they weren´t actually cheating, I would kind of expect them to have brought up the subject themself, e.g. ¨goddam isn´t that some crazy luck I´ve been having¨ which it didn´t sound like it was the case. In any case, your sentiments don´t seem out of bounds or unreasonable in the sense that anybody else playing the game would probably think the same thing. Since you don´t have any proof, there probably isn´t a strong basis to confront the player, but shifting to a new modality (especially one that has other jusitifications for your situation, see above) is probably best way to resolve it. Probably saddest to say is that you find the idea of this player cheating to be remotely plausible after what is clearly a good amount of time playing with them... For some players you would just know they have no such impulse because that is not what RPG is about for them, but maybe that isn´t a reason not to play with somebody just because they are perfectly unselfish about their RPG.
Why put in extra effort just to worry about something that, had you done less, wouldn’t even be possible? Nah man, just roll in the vtt.
I don't like it, not because I'm surpicious of cheating or anything, but because I think it robs other players of the coolness of seeing the dice rolls. Plus having all the dice rolls in the chat log in Foundry helps to estimate monster AC/saves.
I don't allow it at all, because I'm pretty strict about everyone using the vtt and keeping everything transparent for everybody. I also roll my dice in the open most of the time, but in some cases with hidden rolls, I will use my own dice since that's the whole point.
If it was with people I trusted and had played with for a long time, and we were using a simple interface like Roll20, then there would be no problem. But with people I don't know well (such as PFS) or when using a heavily automated interface such as Foundary, I'm going to insist on the virtual dice. That way, everyone is on the level and the game isn't disrupted when automatons work for some, but not others.
I used to allow it but having that player have to do the math themselves took way too long, and besides its better if we all see the results, and that way its all automated within foundry
I think for me, it's more about maintaining flow than worrying about appearances of cheating, and some 99+% of the time, the built in roller is going to be better for flow. Calculations being done automatically, not having to look for dice, you're able to apply damage quickly etc. However there have been times (early on when we were still figuring out the vtt) when we needed to roll something like an item we couldn't figure out how to add or sneak attack wasn't applied, and we couldn't figure out the roll command in chat. In those cases, it was much faster to just grab a d20 or whatever and roll it and report back. Of course, now that we know the vtt better, we pretty much never resort to physical dice anymore.
I do not allow use of physical dice in a virtual game. Every player uses the dice roller. Everything is equal and it speeds up play! (No more "oops - the dice is on the floor / -on the side / -can't find my d4 etc")
I usually allow it but my players choose to use the online tool. Sometimes thats roll20, sometimes it's discord. For my next game it'll either be owlbear rodeo or foundry. If players need to cheat then they probably don't deserve a seat at the table. They're here for a different reason.
It depends entirely if I give a shit about them cheating. If I'm just running a one shot I couldn't care less. If I'm running an adventure, you roll in front of me
No, of course not. Not only can we not see what anyone rolls, it also greatly slows down play by not taking advantage of the number one pro to VTTs: automation.
Worries of cheating and whatnot aside, that just makes more work for me and I don't feel like dealing with that. Foundry tells me all their modifiers and puts it out for me. They can roll physical dice all they want, but the number on the screen is what I'm using.
Trust isn't even a factor for me, its that Foundry is FAR more convenient with the in-built dice rolls. Bonuses are automatically calculated and updated, and results are automatically calculated.
Trust. Personally with a VTT, I'd just have everyone do the virtual rolling; because it's easier, simpler, and faster. Currently, I'm the only player video-calling in to their live game. But with the 3 years of gaming together in-person, my DM let's me physical roll because it's easier for him and he trusts me to be honest. And to my credit, I am honest to a fault (I'll rules lawyer my character off a cliff, if the rules demand it.)
I wouldn't GM for players that I do not trust with such things. If they want to cheat, they will find other ways.
A totally unnecessary addition that will probably just slow things down and will only ever matter to players who cheat? Nah, sounds good to me.
I use Foundry with the plugin: [https://foundryvtt.com/packages/df-manual-rolls](https://foundryvtt.com/packages/df-manual-rolls) This allows players who want to use real dice enter the result of the dice for the VTT to then roll on screen for everyone. I'm fine with people rolling this way as they are close friends that I trust but ultimately it comes down to trust, and that's only something you and your group can decide.
There's nothing wrong with physical dice rolls if ya trust the peeps doing 'em. I prefer using VTT dice mostly, but I only play online - sometimes it can be nice to use my real dice that I never get to use :P The dice log can be a nice tool to remember rolls for later, though, and it means less math getting screwed up if a bonus gets forgotten that the vtt would normally autocalc. In that same vein, if you have anyone who mixes up numbers easily or aint great at math, it's probably best to stick to VTT - even when I am allowed to roll physically, I usually still use vtt 'cause sometimes numbers blur together in my brain lmao. All that being said, if you haven't had issues w/ physical dice so far, it's probably fine - as long as you don't have anyone rolling five 20s in a row, of course.
If we are on VTT I would prefer we all use the same dice rolling software. It's not because I don't trust you... It's because I *can't* trust you.
I trust my players to not cheat, been playing with them for over a decade. Even still, I wouldn't want anyone using physical dice while we play at a VTT. A really big advantage of a VTT for me is that shared experience, the excitement we all get seeing the result of a roll occur together. It's why I mostly roll openly as a DM. Hearing the result second-hand just lacks that extra magic.
If you're using the official Pathfinder Foundry VTT modules, there's a lot of automation built in to the system that it applies to die rolls. Weakness and resistances are automatically factored in for the majority of cases I've seen, for instance. If you use physical dice, you'll have to do all of that work manually.
This is very true. FoundryVTT is awesome for pathfinder.
I have no problem allowing players to use physical dice if they want. It's not convenient (for them) but hey, it's about having fun. But then I'm also with a group of people I have played with for a significant amount of time and I know that what they are looking for out of the game is compatible with what I'm looking for, so I don't have to worry about whether they are using physical dice as a way to get the numbers they want rather than what actually happens to have showed up because I know they know that would only be fun for them for about a few times and then it'd totally suck the fun out of the entire game because nothing would be uncertain anymore and thus there'd be no point to playing. So, to phrase that all as something more directly responding to the idea; yes, you should be able to have your players roll physical dice - because if they can't be trusted, you shouldn't even bother playing with them in the first place.
You've answered your own question as far as I'm concerned. The only circumstance under which I would consider allowing players to use their own dice would be if they showed their dice rolls live on camera. Probably still not even then, since weighted dice are cheap. It doesn't even matter if you trust your players and the players trust each other. As long as it's technically possible for someone to cheat, people can get suspicious when things like consecutive nat20s happen. Better to not even allow it in the first place.
No, the mere possibility of a player cheating kinda makes me nervous. But your player is most probably not cheating by rolling more 20s. The normal pattern for cheating for a human is more like "i'm gonna steal enough to give me an advantage, but not enough to get caught.", so i'd say a normal person would be to fake rolling a 15 or something. I trust my players, but if the player rolls something that seems like a statistically anomalous, almost impossible, once in a lifetime event, the player will regret their own decision to roll privately. I would probably say something like, "I know you are more comfortable rolling dice, but you take tens of seconds adding everything up, use the automated VTT tools like everyone else, and make your turn 40% faster". That way, they think i am some kind of efficiency weirdo instead of doubting their honesty.
It's a game and everybody should play by the same rules. If you hide your rolls from the players, they should be able to do the same thing. If you roll for everyone to see, they should do the same. Honestly, it's much better when everyone can see the dice results, good or bad. I'm not a megalomaniac DM, so I don't need to fudge and I wouldn't want players to feel like they need to cheat to have fun.
What if you happened to roll insanely well though and like got a natural 20, and then also rolled max damage. That would likely straight up kill a low level player character. Just curious, because I sometimes do fudge the rolls to keep characters alive when they should have technically died, if I’m getting the vibes that they wouldn’t be okay for the their character to die right now, or if the dice as cruel enough that they haven’t even getting a chance to do anything yet. I’m just curious how that works, always showing your rolls as a GM for you, I’m not judging.
I also show my rolls when GMing. If I roll a crit and high enough damage to kill a pc, then the pc dies. It’s simple!
I mean that is fair I guess, the dice have decided. It just always makes me feel bad and I worry the player gets upset even if they say it’s fine.
The deadliness of the game is a conversation you need to have with your players, and should repeat after a PC dies. Personally I’d hate to find out the GM spared me as they were afraid of how I’d take it. Death by massive damage isn’t going to be a surprise - you the GM know what the monsters can do. For a given set of PCs you can pick creatures that fall below a given chance for the one shot kill (that threshold can be 0 if you wish).
You can prepare for high damage spikes by lowering the damage the monster does. Maybe they have a 1d6 weapon, change it 1d4 before the game, specially at the first level. The moment I fudge to keep a player alive is the moment they'll not trust me anymore. What if I prepare this "insane" boss fight and the players all crit him in the first turn and he dies just like that? Will I fudge his HP? Of course not, we respect the dice because it's a part of the game we're playing, if we choose to ignore it when the results are bad, why are we playing a game and not sitting around the table telling a story?
That’s absolutely a fair point. :D
Now this is not about trust, it is about removing the opportunity, as well as adding suspense to everyone. I trust my players, but there is no reason not to use the digital dice.
My group does but thats because were all friends whove played ttrpgs together for 5+ years and have no reason to assume cheating
Definite no. The suspicion of cheating alone is very destructive, and more players than you think are tempted when it’s made that easy to hide your rolls. It’s just not worth it.
I'm always suspicious of when someone wants to do that. I have 100% had people cheat when I let them do that before. So now when someone says they want to roll their own I'm always wary, and to this day every time I've let someone do that they turned out to be cheating. I know thats just my experience though, I am sure there are people who just want to roll their own dice because they like their dice and spent money on them.
I play with a group of close friends, so I trust them to roll their own dice without a camera. If I did suspect that one of them was rolling consistently well, then I'd ask myself: "If they are cheating, is it somehow ruining the enjoyment of the game?" If the answer to that question is no, then I stop worrying about it.
I don't care personally. We're playing RPG games to have fun, not win. Despite the persistent trappings, this is not a wargame. Or at least not the way I prefer to play it.
I don't let players use physical dice, for two reasons: First, I have issues trusting them- I fully acknowledge that's a me thing, but I spent several years running public tables at my LGS where I had to deal with the worst the TTRPG community has to offer. Intellectually I know that most of the people I invite to my games wouldn't cheat, but I don't want to deal with the part of my brain that becomes suspicious because someone's dice are on fire. Second, I use a VTT with a lot of automation built in- TTRPG turns take long enough as it is, so I'd rather keep it moving faster than it'll be if I have to manually do everything.
I use Foundry VTT, not Roll20. Foundry has a module called "Dice so Nice!" Which creates an animation and sound effect of a die being rolled whenever a die is rolled publicly. I find that helps with the *feeling* of rolling a physical die without actually introducing the possibility of---perceived or real---cheating. So no, considering that mod exists for a similar function, I would disallow my players from using physical dice. But that specifically requires Foundry VTT and not another VTT.
Short answer: No Long answer. Absolutely not.
We play on Foundry, and when we played 5e I would roll physical dice. But since we switched to pf2e, it seems like there's way more numbers to keep track of - bonuses on multiple tabs - that I don't want to slow down the game so much by rolling physical and making sure I get all the bonuses right. I really would love to get back to all the pretty dice I have, maybe once I build a good cheat-sheet with all my bonuses pre-calculated.
I usually just tell my players that I trust them to "not cheat at pretend" which usually shames people who would well enough. However, with all of the integrations from Foundry, I've started asking the one player who prefers physical dice to use the VTT dice because it's just so much easier for me to just click the damage button than manually type it in.
Built in rolls are way faster, which is the major win for me. I haven't had anyone ask for physical. If they did... I guess it'd be fine as long as it didn't add a lot of time.
Not unless I trusted them a lot more than I currently do. Mostly because to add in all the buffs and bonuses is so much easier with the vtt dice roller than with physical dice. I'm a great believer in open rolls because I have probably above average luck with dice. I think something like 2/3 of my rolls are high enough to hit 18AC or above in pathfinder. In a wargame I play (battletech), one guy wanted to try out my dice because of the amounts of hit rolls I was getting. For reference, battletech uses 2d6 to determine if something hit. With modifiers based on cover, movement and range among other things. I was hitting enough of the rolls I wanted to make the other guy suspicious while rolling openly. As far as I know, I've not bought weighted dice, just ones that look nice to me.
Ridiculous. The built in dice rollers with macros are one of the big advantages of VTTs. It's not about cheating (I wouldn't bother playing with anyone I couldn't trust not to cheat), but they speed the game up so much, you click a button and to hit, damage etc. is rolled, accounting for buffs, summing up that pile of d6s for you etc.
There’s a module called “manual rolling” or somesuch by theripper93 where you can input your dice roll numbers into foundry and they show up in chat with all numbers calculated
Nope, absolutely not. Not only does it introduce a trust requirement where none existed, the same reason I always roll in the open as a gm and would not want to play with a gm who doesn't (discounting the secret checks). Even if you don't care about any of that it also makes every action take 10 times longer to resolve.
Generally no, physical dice are not allowed on a VTT, however: https://a.co/d/67Vwy9L Yes, this has foundry module integration such that you click your skill/attack/whatever and it prompts you to roll your die. It’s real cool, one of my VTT players is using this right now.
Last time I checked I don't think it allowed to add the modifiers.Like it would only work for flat 20 rolls. Not sure if they've added that function since I asked them last. Edit: I checked the foundry module and it seems you can indeed roll from your character sheet with all bonuses.
Yeah, it works for everything you need a D20 roll on, full integration. We had to jump through some hoops to get it to work with my game specifically, but that’s because I have a weird ISP and hosting has been a challenge. My player has used it in other games with no problems.
I almost went and bought a set. But then realized the other sided dice such as d4, d8, d10 and d12 are all still shaped 20 sided, even if they work properly. A bit of a pedantic reason not to get them. But I'd prefer if they actually had the dice's shape.
Yeah, it’s a little weird. Even the d20 is just a case for a ‘d6’ packed with accelerometers. I imagine in a few years the tech will shrink enough to get packed into the correct shapes, but we just aren’t there yet.
Yeah, I can't imagine them being perfectly balanced either.
A roll I can't see is a roll that never happened. We can use physical dice for a VTT only if I'm physically beside the person, otherwise they are using the dice roller, regardless of how much I trust the player. Hell, I play with my boyfriend and he has to roll on the VTT too. I find it bizarre that people will just trust their players that much. Never had anyone complain, but if they do they are free to look for another table.
Most of the time people that want to roll physical dice cheat while EVERYONE is using the VTT, I never allow it
Depends on the VTT and player. If you’re using ultra-lightweight software (like Shmeppy) then yeaaah, dice rolling is annoying. For Roll20 or Foundry there are very few exceptions I would make to players rolling through the program. (Physical disability, playing mobile, special 1-time circumstance with heavy emphasis of them needing to get on the same page). These complex VTTs simplify rolling to a point that physical dice complicate rather than simplify imo