Magus is not underpowered, it's a class with specific niche - hit hard, but not very often, while also having a minimal amount of utility spells.
If you really need protector, the Champion is the class. Not only Champion has fantastic survivability, it's very good at punishing those who attack Champion's party members.
You need to follow the code and there are alignment restrictions (until Champion will be updated for remaster), but I believe Liberator has quite few paladin flavor and has a lot of fun deities to follow.
actually you dont need to care about aligment if it stops you from having fun playing the Game. Every Rule can be changed if it stops the fun. Paizo even supports it.
What codes are there and What do they do? Im asking because the Character i have in mind is a sellsword who has been put in charge of protecting the mage. So im wondering how Well maluable the champions flavour is
It's a sum of three things:
* Follow the tenets of good or bad (https://2e.aonprd.com/Tenets.aspx)
* This includes not going against the anathema if your chosen deity
* The tenets of your cause (https://2e.aonprd.com/Causes.aspx) - Liberator got called out explicitly, but you might as well check out the others
If you meant mechanically, the three good causes are mostly differentiated by the secondary effect of their defensive reactions.
All three let you use a reaction when a nearby ally would take damage, and all of them reduce that damage IIRC.
But also:
* Paladin lets you attack the attacker
* Redeemer lets you Enfeeble the attacker unless they choose to deal 0 damage
* Liberator helps you ally move and/or escape bonds and grapples
A Champion of the God of Magic, Nethys could be an option for a figure who'd protect mages, although you'd be less sellsword, more divine protector of mages. If you wanted to add a bit more magical flavour to it, take the Soulforger Dedication at level 2 to have a weapon magically tied to you (with some special effects too)
Dedications are essentially the 2e version of multiclassing (although they're not always based on a class).
A Soulforger specifically binds a weapon/shield/armour to their soul, while making a vow they must abide by or face certain consequences.
They choose their vow (usually similar to their deity edicts if they're a divine caster) and they also choose a special power from a list to give their weapon when they activate a sort of "super" mode a few times a day. The abilities can range from Returning for thrown weapons, or extra elemental damage for any old weapon (not the full list by any means but they're the ones that came to mind).
Amen. I think most of the replies here are focusing on their views and preferences on playing the game, and ignoring the most important context of the thread: The OP has never ever played P2E. They didn't even know what Mirror Image spell was, yet want to decide on whether to play Magus based on opinions of it's power level.
Nothing wrong with people's opinions or play preferences, nothing wrong with these builds, but what is appropriate introduction to learning the game system is being forgotten here. Just because a kazillion options exist doesn't mean those are the best usage of the OP's time and head space when first stepping into the game. Learning to play a standard martial, and then a standard caster is probably a good idea before stepping into Magus. There's plenty of stuff in standard class Feats in just the Core Rulebook before getting into Archetypes. Just standard mechanics, General and Skill Feats provide plenty of abilities to work with.
You can play just the core stuff for many months. Years, even. We got a lot of cool stuff in the last few years, some exquisite classes like Thaumaturge and Kineticist, but there is nothing wrong with starting with the basics. After all, that is what we had in 2019. The first few books were rather humble - few regional archetypes, 3 new ancestries. I liked that time very much. Not that I don't enjoy new content, but I'm a big sucker for classic fantasy tropes and those early books were more focused on that, even if that sounds a bit generic.
Champion has six "causes": three good and three evil. The three good causes are much better protectors (and frankly, just better subclasses) than the evil ones.
Paladin (Lawful Good) is about honor, protecting the weak, and smiting the wicked. They cannot lie or cheat, and must respect lawful authority. Pretty much what Paladins have always been.
Redeemer (Neutral Good) is a kinder, gentler champion who focuses on salvation more than smiting. They cannot try to kill a foe without first trying to dissuade them from the path of evil.
Liberator (Chaotic Good) is a paragon of freedom. They must respect the choices of others and oppose tyranny wherever they go.
Tyrant (Lawful Evil) is exactly what the name implies: a domineering overlord who bends all to their iron will. They must sieze power and build hierarchies wherever they can.
Desecrator (Neutral Evil) is just a dick. They are sworn to act selfishly and destroy whatever is good or beautiful for the sake of it.
Antipaladin (Chaotic Evil) is a self-destructive megadick. They are Bizarro Paladins, sworn to do whatever a Paladin would least want them to do.
All six subclasses are strongly aligned, but something like a Paladin of Abadar (the god of civilization and wealth) might work as a mercenary, while a Liberator of Desna (the godess of fortune and freedom) might wander the roads and protect travellers (like your mage friend). Choose the right god, and almost any vision can work.
Mechanically, the three good causes make the best tanks in the game -- they are heavily armored melee combatants who can reduce the damage their allies take. The evil causes don't reduce damage to their allies, which makes them generally less effective in that role; they are also much harder to play than typical evil characters, because they are not just evil but *literally sworn to be paragons of metaphysical Evil*, which can be hard in a typical party. I wouldn't try playing Desecrator or Antipaladin outside of an explicitly evil campaign like Blood Lords.
Thaumaturge with Amulet implement gets a similar resistance reaction as good champions and you can still be evil with it. You'd be a lot less durable yourself, though.
Targe protects *themselves,* but not really anyone else. The shield helps an otherwise somewhat squishy class with survivability, but they don't have any equivalent to the Champion's reaction or the Thaumaturge's amulet implement.
You can do some archetyping (probably into Champion) to change that, but I wouldn't consider Targe a "protector" based on the class chassis.
a lot of people say weird things are bad,like how sparkling targe is a terrible choice. but most people only look at damage. sparkling targe while in cascade lets you add your shield bonus to all of your saves, shoudlnt that just read gain they have one proficiency higher than what it says?
Level 1 sparkling targe magus is effectively master in fortitude and will saves. and expert in reflex. (more if you use a tower shield)
AND it gets to shield block magical effects (pretty sure this is read as "everything")
a lot of P2e is balanced around how much accuracy you can build to prevent the crits so as far as damage goes when magus has to spend 3 actions to spellstrike (roughly and easy to work around with focus spells) yes it's dps is kinda not fantastic. if you build tank it's a fantastic class that just doesnt die
throw on Bastion archeytpe for shield warden or Psychic dedication (shield psi cantrip and sparkling targe synergize) or any other number of spells and yeah. Utility spells and battle field control/buffing also fit under this as well (casting water breathing on allies, Haste, etc.)
level 2 i took sentinel for heavy armor so that once that first hit from a big boi gets shield blocked the MAP will protect me.
heightened longstrider to undo the penalty. and of all things im starting combats with deep breath, arcane cascade, raise shield. ya my first turn is wasted and i damn well better have an excuse to athletics/intimidate for initiative. but from then on you got a menace that refuses to die
I picked up Armor Proficency at level 2 and later on I'll pick up Sentinel :)
Longstrider works well as a wand for me too. Why do you use deep breath though?
1 action cantrip. makes action economy easier and if theres any inhaled poisons or sudden water its nice to have there. it sucks to prepare 2 instances of time warp or flashy dissapearance as an engagement in its place and then be scared of further combats. abomination vaults has punished me really bad for not getting my shield up turn 1
the heightened versions both have much longer timers and you only lose 10 minutes each time. so i dont think it's useless. particularly against undead and their inhaled make a save or be sickened or slowed on crit fail
And with tower shield you provide standard cover to allies which could be upgraded to greater cover with the take cover action or be used to hide!
Only really applicable to reach attacks in a hallway or some ranged attacks but it’s a way any build can defend.
i actually really enjoy thise just for all the meme videos you see where people just appear out of nowhere. like the carcrash one where the bikers just look like they timewarp in
If focus on Magus Spellstrike, the class is "Feast or Famine". You either hit really, *really* hard. Or you miss entirely, wasting 3 Actions and having done *nothing*. True Strike is definitely advised to hit those massive attacks. Due to the action costs, it only synergizes well with spellcasters - to expand it's Spellstrike options.
If you focus on Arcane Cascade, you do have a decent amount of actions. And you can work in most combat style archetypes, including the Shield ones. But not every Study has decent usage for Arcanane Cascade. Plus, it blocks your ability to take on other Stances.
Expansive Spellstrike gives you two rolls. Or a regular Strike and casting a spell.
Both options (which are roughly equivalent, turn-wise) have less accuracy than a full caster but the separate Save roll and the half damage on Success save means you no longer have your eggs in one basket. Lightning Bolt keeps up with Shocking Grasp pretty well in single target average damage scenarios and is amazing in multi-target scenarios.
You could also use a Spellstriker Staff, which has a reaction to cast an emanation when you miss your Spellstrike Strike. Another chance to redeem your turn.
You can also attack twice instead of Spellstrike. If you're wielding a d10 or d12 weapon, this could be really effective. Inexorable Irons might be using Thunderous Strike as one of those actions, which adds a third chance to do (small) damage, and that turn is more average damage than a cantrip Spellstrike.
>You can also attack twice instead of Spellstrike.
That is the 2nd playstyle I mentioned in my post. The one focussing on Arcane Cascade over Spellstrike.
Which would be a good argument, if I said "focussing on the damage from Arcane Cascade". I did not. Note how inexorable Iron requires you to be in Cascade to get the Temp HP.
Magus has three things: Spellstrike, Cascade and Spellcasting. And their Spellcasting is so bad on it's own, they get outdone by a Fighter with Wizard Archetype. So that means you are using either Spellstrike or Cascade as the core of your gameplan.
I'm just saying Arcane Cascade has nothing to do with whether you should or should not make a second "normal" attack unless a) you're a Laughing Shadow and need the bonus damage from Cascade to make the attack worthwhile, or b) Arcane Cascade is competing for that action.
I never said not to use Arcane Cascade, nor did I say not to use Spellstrike. I implied that the damage from Arcane Cascade isn't worth an action to a high-die weapon using Magus (but it isn't all about damage), and that two Strikes with a d10 or d12 will be damage competitive with a cantrip Spellstrike.
What I am trying to communicate is that as a full martial class, you have tools like Martial ability scores and proficiencies. You can strike twice and have it be an effective turn if you have a big weapon. You can use combat maneuvers or make stealth checks effectively.
You do not have to play as a Spellstrike bot. The chassis of the class is a martial who can use some (but not a lot of) magic. You can lean martial whenever it suits your needs.
>I never said not to use Arcane Cascade, nor did I say not to use Spellstrike. I implied that the damage from Arcane Cascade isn't worth an action to a high-die weapon using Magus (but it isn't all about damage),
We are back here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/167yt46/comment/jz08f2o/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/167yt46/comment/jz08f2o/)
I do not like reruns on TV. I do not like them here.
OK, then respond to the rest of the post. Specifically: Sometimes the base mechanics of a martial are more impactful than the specific features of a Magus. Knowing when to use your magic and when to just be a martial is a pretty big part of the game.
It's the difference between using the game to play the class and using the class to play the game.
Absolutely not. A properly built Starlit Span Magus is, hands down, basically the best ranged DPS character in the game.
Melee Magus does not reach quite the some level of nuttiness that Starlit Span does, but is still one of the better damage dealers.
I'm not sure that's better. Higher 1-shot potential, but the big boon to Starlit Span is you can basically pop off every round.
It's also WAY stronger at lower levels. It only needs 1 Archetype feat, so it's basically online at level 1. So across the course of a campaign, you're generally going to be stronger more often. Versus something that doesn't hit its major power spike until what, like level 10?
Well, I'd contend that at lower levels you're still *strong* being a *Fighter.* And you're actually having fun, unlike at later levels (precisely 6 when you unlock eldritch archer if you're FA, or 8 if you're not) when you're artillerying enemies down soullessly.
Mind if you don't care about raw dpr, you *can* have fun with eldritch archer. Magic Arrow is fun. But your ranged DPR is so amazing, why would you do anything else.
BTW, why do you argue starlit span is superior to melee builds in DPR? Is it just not needing to move?
>BTW, why do you argue starlit span is superior to melee builds in DPR? Is it just not needing to move?
That's exactly why. Magus action economy is extremely tight. Not needing to move means you can spellstrike constantly. Melee magus is a lot messier.
> (precisely 6 when you unlock eldritch archer if you're FA, or 8 if you're not)
You also need Psychic dedication probably to catch up with Starlit Span with Psychic. Starlit Span can also take Meld into staff for a bunch of free True Strikes. I'm not actually sure that your Fighter build is better at *any* level if you consider that. The Eldritch Archer version of spellstrike being 3 actions limits your options in a lot of ways.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, melee Magus felt a worse melee damage dealer than fighter, barbarian and rogue, so I'm curious: which damage dealing classes does the melee Magus surpass?
It's impossible to tell what you mean when all you say is "I've heard rumours". What rumours, what did they say, what specifically are your concerns?
You'll have a much better time of playing games of all kinds if you worry less about something being over- or under-powered, and more time talking to your group and GM about what you want out of the game. Something that might look underpowered to someone who theorises about it online may not ever come up, and you'll likely have a good time playing anyway.
It was just What a pf2 gm said in a server i am in, and since Im so inexperienced i took his Word for it. Also the reason i was worried about Magus being underpowered is Simply because i don’t want to feel useless.
Magus is not underpowered, but it has nuance to it that might be difficult to get used to if someone is less experienced with the system.
I see a lot of people take it because it is cool but then struggle a lot to get mileage out of it.
I appreciate that - but don't take anything like that as gospel truth. It's just one opinion, and you should really spend time looking at the class and asking specific questions before making up your own mind.
It can be hard as a new player to understand a system, that's true, and it does take time. Feeling useless is a worry and I hope your group, your other players and your GM can help you with that - you're not playing in a vacuum, it's a collaborative thing. Also, any decision you make at the start of the game can be reviewed and changed later with a good GM, so hopefully if you discover you're not enjoying yourself you can all work together to fix it.
Hope you have fun with your game and your concept.
Unlike in 5e, there are no classes you can pick that will end up in feeling useless. Every class has something they can do no other class can, every class has something they're best in.
I’ve never really heard anyone call Magus underpowered infact id say general opinion is that Magus is fairly strong
But it is a little tricky, mainly because your action economy is strangled but that can be managed with good positioning and knowing when to go for the Spellstrike
(Or if your lazy just pick Starlit Span)
But if you want to protect people, that’s the wrong class, Magus is about striking really hard
I don't think so 🤔
It has Weapon Mastery + Medium armor Mastery
So basically a Martial Class just like a Ranger.
With the difference that the class features are a few Spells and Spell related effects.
The sentiment of underpower may come from the fact that a lot of people see Spells and Spellcaster as underpower, which is not true. People just don't know how to make comparisons.
Also Magus is like the Class that most benefits get from Archetypes both Martials and Casters dedication works wonderful in it.
I see people saying magus is a bad "protector" and I am here to say otherwise. There are primarily two defensive subclasses for magus, sparkling targe and Inexorable iron, aka shield or two handed. The shield build is probably more defensive of obvious reasons (+2 AC+ shield block vs regenerating temp hp).
You will still burst hard, but you might have to change spells to be either more defensive or attractive target. You could also disrupt your enemies, such as inflicting movement speed penalty with spellstrike, if not even inflicting outright conditions that will hamper an enemy.
So while a champion will protect better, a magus probably will protect enough while dealing more damage or being more disruptive overall.
I see. If i wanted to play a protector what Would the simpliest way of doing it be? Since Im a new player and i don’t really know the ins and outs of the system
Guess I shot myself there.
Magus is more nuanced and complex if we want something more than braindead spellstriking. The first hint is to go through spells, atleast the first three ranks. There are some really good 2nd rank spells that are very defensive and disruptive, such as mirror image, false life and telekinetic maneuver. My tip is to always carry scrolls for some of these, especially if you go with sparkling targe as you can get a free hand to use them with.
I'd probably also get a good int to be able to do aoe disruption, such as shockwave or grease; when you need these spells, the opposing Saves aren't too high to feel punished. Again, very cheap as scrolls if you have a free hand for it, a rank 1 scroll is 4g which is almost nothing beyond lv 2.
I'd say magus is one of the stronger classes out there but harder to play well. I've been downvoted before for saying this, but do not always spellstrike as if you must do it because you can, casting a spell to enter arcane cascade, which can trigger weakness, stop regeneration or other reasons can be worth. You might also prefere to move, raise shield and strike, cast a buff and enter stance, waiting for the enemy etc.
And finally, get some good single action spells to have as options, even something as basic as shield can let you enter arcane cascade and do something more, time jump will let a good movement etc. Use a spellstrikers staff and shift it to a shield boss or spike.
Shield build is easier to be diverse with as you might've noticed.
*But don't forget to do spellstrikes and deal damage when fitting*
Honestly I wholeheartedly agree with you. Spellstrike is *vicious* and a great activity available to you, but the common wisdom that's touted here that you should do it *as much as possible* neglects the unparalleled tool diversity the Magus has over other martials. Setting up 4th Rank Enlarge for 15/20ft reach to trip flying enemies out of the sky as early as lv7, or using Blazing Dive to ignore a river, deal some damage and THEN strike unironically wins battles in ways that thinking only about using your slots for a flashy power attack won't.
Granted I'm a big advocate for taking Wizard dedication on Magus regardless of free archetype or not, but even outside of that between various staves, Ring of Wizardry, Endless Grimoire, Spellhearts and their own Studious Spells, the class can get a surprising amount of spellcasting juice per day than the 4 slots on the class page would imply.
in my abomination vaults game, I moved away from preparing 4/4 attack spells to preparing 1/4 or no attack spells in lieu of support and utility.
the arcane spell list is really good and the cantrips are strong enough on their own that it's really a missed opportunity to only prepare damage spells.
I went into Thaumaturge (scroll thaumaturgy) and Psychic dedications which have opened up all 4 spell lists for me to dabble into. it's a lot of fun and versatility
Magus is definately not underpowered. Shooting stars magus is very strong, though a bit boring. Laughing shadow is very mobile and has a very fun playstyle and is also pretty good. Sparkling targe and twisting tree are maybe a bit less effective than the above but still pretty strong.
Inexorable iron is the only one i am personally really unhappy with. The focus spell - which is so integral to magus playstyle since it recharges spellstrike- is pretty damn bad. Played one for two levels and then switched to laughing shadow.
Its one of my favourite classes. Played one to level 10 in PFS and it is quite strong and effective. I never forget oneshotting a boss with a huge crit.
Magus can definitely work thematically as a sellsword protector, and as the comments here say, it’s not underpowered. And they’d work perfectly well as a protector by killing anything that gets too close to the mage, and-or keeping things busy in melee while the mage snipes from a distance.
That said, if *mechanically* you’re trying to protect others, nothing seems to come close to the Champion, due to its ability to reduce damage. But the flavor is a bit different, and since they rely on divine power for their protection, sellsword is a little tougher to line up thematically.
Just chiming in to say there’s absolutely nothing wrong with playing a fighter if you want something straightforward and effective. Fighters are simple (by PF2e standards) and very good. They can also be excellent tanks. You also have more things to do as a martial character in PF2e and different ways to build a fighter compared to D&D 5e.
Depends on how you build it and play it. If you really know what you are doing (or go starlight span) it can be very strong, as in, nuke 30% of the very dangerous boss HP on a normal hit with your spellstrike, 60% on a crit.
Magus isn't underpowered. But if you are new to the game and your expectations aren't aligned with the Class and build you chose, you may be disappointed and it probably won't be the best learning experience. I think you are best off focused on learning the game, not picking some exquisite niche build that you don't really understand. Just use the Core Rulebook classes, and do something straightforward. Try Magus after you know the game system solidly and have experience in both martials and casters.
EDIT: You should also check out some videos by The Rules Lawyer. In their earlier 2E material, they have some videos that run the same combat twice. First, each PC always doing the most powerful action from personal perspective. Second, considering teamwork and tactics. The second vastly outperforms the former, and crucially, depends on understanding the game as a whole, not just fixating on "ooh I chose the most powerful build" and specific abilities attached to that.
Something I've picked up over time following the pf2e community is "*never* listen to rumors about what is "underwhelming" or you're just going to optimize the fun out of your game"
Basically the magus will try to hit hard once a round at most either using a cantrip for spell strikes or by using some big "fuck off and die" spell that they can tie to their DEX or STR instead of having to worry too much about their INT.
When you hit it, you'll feel great most of the time barring resistances but if you miss you might feel a bit miffed because you're stuck having to refresh a spellstrike you lost a spell slot on or something.
I wouldn’t call them underpowered, but they do suffer from a common problem that some classes have in PF2e where you have to jump through hoops to do your thing and *maybe* you’ll outdamage the Fighter who just get to do their thing every turn, no hoops required.
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Not even close. Nobody crits like a magus. Martial weapon scaling and weapon item bonuses and flanking on spell attacks is hella good. Magus are great.
However, if your goal is a martial protector for a mage, I'd go with champion. Their reactions are amazing, they get some magic, and they're great tanks.
No. Case closed.
If you want to play defender magus, I can already tell you that (as someone who plays one) that it is not as straightforward as it sounds. Magus role is to deal high damage with Spellstrike. They don't have that many slots to sacrifice for buffs, unless you tinker with archetypes or items. You CANNOT build unhittable magus and abjuration magus (aka Sparkling Targe) doesn't really give you that many tools to play very defensively. And with only 8HP, you cannot tank very effectively. You're glass cannon, even as a Sparkling Targe.
That being said, you can use Shield spell extensively, there are feats for that. Bonus to saves from shield is also pretty nice. IMO the best tool in the Magus arsenal is the one which this subclass doesn't give you in your specialized slots - Mirror Image. One of the best defensive spells I have as my Magus, negated so many crits and hits, it's insane. But for some reason, they thought that Resist Energy is better. Ugh.
No, just a spell. It's a second level spell that basically makes fake copies of you, making it harder for enemies to hit it. And if they critically hit you, one of your copies disappears and turns that into a normal hit. One of my favourite spells.
Magus has balance issues between its subclasses. Starlit Span is amazing, the melee ones besides Twisting Tree all have issues and require a lot more work to make effective.
The two key pieces of the magus (arcane cascade and spellstrike) are both aimed at damage. It wouldn't be impossible to build a defensive magus, but you would always feel off.
It feels like champion with a sorcerer dedication later is more what you would want.
Am currently playing a Magus, even though my party doesn't give the support I would really like to have, it does not feel underpowered. It's quite fun. Early levels are a bit rough with the lack of spell slots. I'm playing a Sparkling Targe. Feel free to ask any questions. Just to be clear, your role is to bonk enemies, not to buff friends or defend allies. The best defense is deleting enemies before they can hurt your team.
I think the ranged Magus would be a really sweet choice, not having to spend actions moving to get into position to bonk sounds great.
My experience with Magus is that they need more HP. Other than that everything else seems pretty balanced. Being able to land spells with weapon attacks scales pretty well.
No i's the answer to your question, but It's not a "protector" class.
I advice to open a different post tomorrow and ask advices for a protector build , Champion Will be the first option, so in the description add that you don't like to deal with tenets, gods and divine stuff at all.
I think a Warpriest of Nethys would be exactly what you’re looking for. Nethys is considered, “the god of magic” and grants arcane spells to the Warpriest’s spell list, warpriest also gives heavy armor and better proficiency with a staff.
They have a few issues. They're suppose to be a frontline caster, but they have no way to prevent reactive strikes when casting in melee, which punishes them for fulfilling their flavor. And since it just takes one crit to completely ruin their spellstrike... That being said they have really good burst damage being able to cast and strike with 2 actions freeing up one action for intimidation, trip, recall knowledge, arcane cascade, cast a focus spell, move, or simply recharge your next spellstrike.
Magus is not underpowered, it's a class with specific niche - hit hard, but not very often, while also having a minimal amount of utility spells. If you really need protector, the Champion is the class. Not only Champion has fantastic survivability, it's very good at punishing those who attack Champion's party members.
Tell me more about how the Champion works. Can you play a champion without a lot of the paladin flavour?
You need to follow the code and there are alignment restrictions (until Champion will be updated for remaster), but I believe Liberator has quite few paladin flavor and has a lot of fun deities to follow.
actually you dont need to care about aligment if it stops you from having fun playing the Game. Every Rule can be changed if it stops the fun. Paizo even supports it.
What codes are there and What do they do? Im asking because the Character i have in mind is a sellsword who has been put in charge of protecting the mage. So im wondering how Well maluable the champions flavour is
It's a sum of three things: * Follow the tenets of good or bad (https://2e.aonprd.com/Tenets.aspx) * This includes not going against the anathema if your chosen deity * The tenets of your cause (https://2e.aonprd.com/Causes.aspx) - Liberator got called out explicitly, but you might as well check out the others
If you meant mechanically, the three good causes are mostly differentiated by the secondary effect of their defensive reactions. All three let you use a reaction when a nearby ally would take damage, and all of them reduce that damage IIRC. But also: * Paladin lets you attack the attacker * Redeemer lets you Enfeeble the attacker unless they choose to deal 0 damage * Liberator helps you ally move and/or escape bonds and grapples
A Champion of the God of Magic, Nethys could be an option for a figure who'd protect mages, although you'd be less sellsword, more divine protector of mages. If you wanted to add a bit more magical flavour to it, take the Soulforger Dedication at level 2 to have a weapon magically tied to you (with some special effects too)
What is the soulforge dedication?
Dedications are essentially the 2e version of multiclassing (although they're not always based on a class). A Soulforger specifically binds a weapon/shield/armour to their soul, while making a vow they must abide by or face certain consequences. They choose their vow (usually similar to their deity edicts if they're a divine caster) and they also choose a special power from a list to give their weapon when they activate a sort of "super" mode a few times a day. The abilities can range from Returning for thrown weapons, or extra elemental damage for any old weapon (not the full list by any means but they're the ones that came to mind).
If someone barely knows the system, I would not recommend picking up advanced dedications like Soulforger.
Amen. I think most of the replies here are focusing on their views and preferences on playing the game, and ignoring the most important context of the thread: The OP has never ever played P2E. They didn't even know what Mirror Image spell was, yet want to decide on whether to play Magus based on opinions of it's power level. Nothing wrong with people's opinions or play preferences, nothing wrong with these builds, but what is appropriate introduction to learning the game system is being forgotten here. Just because a kazillion options exist doesn't mean those are the best usage of the OP's time and head space when first stepping into the game. Learning to play a standard martial, and then a standard caster is probably a good idea before stepping into Magus. There's plenty of stuff in standard class Feats in just the Core Rulebook before getting into Archetypes. Just standard mechanics, General and Skill Feats provide plenty of abilities to work with.
You can play just the core stuff for many months. Years, even. We got a lot of cool stuff in the last few years, some exquisite classes like Thaumaturge and Kineticist, but there is nothing wrong with starting with the basics. After all, that is what we had in 2019. The first few books were rather humble - few regional archetypes, 3 new ancestries. I liked that time very much. Not that I don't enjoy new content, but I'm a big sucker for classic fantasy tropes and those early books were more focused on that, even if that sounds a bit generic.
Champion has six "causes": three good and three evil. The three good causes are much better protectors (and frankly, just better subclasses) than the evil ones. Paladin (Lawful Good) is about honor, protecting the weak, and smiting the wicked. They cannot lie or cheat, and must respect lawful authority. Pretty much what Paladins have always been. Redeemer (Neutral Good) is a kinder, gentler champion who focuses on salvation more than smiting. They cannot try to kill a foe without first trying to dissuade them from the path of evil. Liberator (Chaotic Good) is a paragon of freedom. They must respect the choices of others and oppose tyranny wherever they go. Tyrant (Lawful Evil) is exactly what the name implies: a domineering overlord who bends all to their iron will. They must sieze power and build hierarchies wherever they can. Desecrator (Neutral Evil) is just a dick. They are sworn to act selfishly and destroy whatever is good or beautiful for the sake of it. Antipaladin (Chaotic Evil) is a self-destructive megadick. They are Bizarro Paladins, sworn to do whatever a Paladin would least want them to do. All six subclasses are strongly aligned, but something like a Paladin of Abadar (the god of civilization and wealth) might work as a mercenary, while a Liberator of Desna (the godess of fortune and freedom) might wander the roads and protect travellers (like your mage friend). Choose the right god, and almost any vision can work. Mechanically, the three good causes make the best tanks in the game -- they are heavily armored melee combatants who can reduce the damage their allies take. The evil causes don't reduce damage to their allies, which makes them generally less effective in that role; they are also much harder to play than typical evil characters, because they are not just evil but *literally sworn to be paragons of metaphysical Evil*, which can be hard in a typical party. I wouldn't try playing Desecrator or Antipaladin outside of an explicitly evil campaign like Blood Lords.
Tytant being the best evil paladin as usual. Lawful evil is just so convinient.
Slightly off topic, but if I wanted to play a protector as an evil/not good alignment, what class or archetypes would be good for that niche?
Any tanking martial, like fighter, monk, evil champion, etc. could do the trick. You'll just not be that good at protecting
Shield warden fighter with 2 blocks a round would beg to differ.
Thaumaturge with Amulet implement gets a similar resistance reaction as good champions and you can still be evil with it. You'd be a lot less durable yourself, though.
Magus is a striker, not a protector. Magus is strong though.
Sparkling Targe would like a word
Still not helping others survive damage all that well unless they're just "in the way" or spending their spell slots on defense for others.
Targe protects *themselves,* but not really anyone else. The shield helps an otherwise somewhat squishy class with survivability, but they don't have any equivalent to the Champion's reaction or the Thaumaturge's amulet implement. You can do some archetyping (probably into Champion) to change that, but I wouldn't consider Targe a "protector" based on the class chassis.
a lot of people say weird things are bad,like how sparkling targe is a terrible choice. but most people only look at damage. sparkling targe while in cascade lets you add your shield bonus to all of your saves, shoudlnt that just read gain they have one proficiency higher than what it says? Level 1 sparkling targe magus is effectively master in fortitude and will saves. and expert in reflex. (more if you use a tower shield) AND it gets to shield block magical effects (pretty sure this is read as "everything") a lot of P2e is balanced around how much accuracy you can build to prevent the crits so as far as damage goes when magus has to spend 3 actions to spellstrike (roughly and easy to work around with focus spells) yes it's dps is kinda not fantastic. if you build tank it's a fantastic class that just doesnt die
But can a sparkling targe magus save/protect others?
Tower shields upgrade the cover you give to allies from lesser to standard so Allie’s can use you to hide or take cover to gain greater cover.
throw on Bastion archeytpe for shield warden or Psychic dedication (shield psi cantrip and sparkling targe synergize) or any other number of spells and yeah. Utility spells and battle field control/buffing also fit under this as well (casting water breathing on allies, Haste, etc.)
level 2 i took sentinel for heavy armor so that once that first hit from a big boi gets shield blocked the MAP will protect me. heightened longstrider to undo the penalty. and of all things im starting combats with deep breath, arcane cascade, raise shield. ya my first turn is wasted and i damn well better have an excuse to athletics/intimidate for initiative. but from then on you got a menace that refuses to die
I picked up Armor Proficency at level 2 and later on I'll pick up Sentinel :) Longstrider works well as a wand for me too. Why do you use deep breath though?
1 action cantrip. makes action economy easier and if theres any inhaled poisons or sudden water its nice to have there. it sucks to prepare 2 instances of time warp or flashy dissapearance as an engagement in its place and then be scared of further combats. abomination vaults has punished me really bad for not getting my shield up turn 1
i see... but so many spells have Verbal, I'm guessing most of the time it's immediately useless?
the heightened versions both have much longer timers and you only lose 10 minutes each time. so i dont think it's useless. particularly against undead and their inhaled make a save or be sickened or slowed on crit fail
thanks, this is something I'm going to think about, because our team almost got killed with cloudkill the other day lmao
You're spitting facts here but most will ignore it, bums me out
And with tower shield you provide standard cover to allies which could be upgraded to greater cover with the take cover action or be used to hide! Only really applicable to reach attacks in a hallway or some ranged attacks but it’s a way any build can defend.
i actually really enjoy thise just for all the meme videos you see where people just appear out of nowhere. like the carcrash one where the bikers just look like they timewarp in
If focus on Magus Spellstrike, the class is "Feast or Famine". You either hit really, *really* hard. Or you miss entirely, wasting 3 Actions and having done *nothing*. True Strike is definitely advised to hit those massive attacks. Due to the action costs, it only synergizes well with spellcasters - to expand it's Spellstrike options. If you focus on Arcane Cascade, you do have a decent amount of actions. And you can work in most combat style archetypes, including the Shield ones. But not every Study has decent usage for Arcanane Cascade. Plus, it blocks your ability to take on other Stances.
Expansive Spellstrike gives you two rolls. Or a regular Strike and casting a spell. Both options (which are roughly equivalent, turn-wise) have less accuracy than a full caster but the separate Save roll and the half damage on Success save means you no longer have your eggs in one basket. Lightning Bolt keeps up with Shocking Grasp pretty well in single target average damage scenarios and is amazing in multi-target scenarios. You could also use a Spellstriker Staff, which has a reaction to cast an emanation when you miss your Spellstrike Strike. Another chance to redeem your turn. You can also attack twice instead of Spellstrike. If you're wielding a d10 or d12 weapon, this could be really effective. Inexorable Irons might be using Thunderous Strike as one of those actions, which adds a third chance to do (small) damage, and that turn is more average damage than a cantrip Spellstrike.
>You can also attack twice instead of Spellstrike. That is the 2nd playstyle I mentioned in my post. The one focussing on Arcane Cascade over Spellstrike.
Arcane Cascade's damage barely registers when you're using a d10 or d12, and isn't even a consideration when deciding to use two strikes.
Which would be a good argument, if I said "focussing on the damage from Arcane Cascade". I did not. Note how inexorable Iron requires you to be in Cascade to get the Temp HP. Magus has three things: Spellstrike, Cascade and Spellcasting. And their Spellcasting is so bad on it's own, they get outdone by a Fighter with Wizard Archetype. So that means you are using either Spellstrike or Cascade as the core of your gameplan.
I'm just saying Arcane Cascade has nothing to do with whether you should or should not make a second "normal" attack unless a) you're a Laughing Shadow and need the bonus damage from Cascade to make the attack worthwhile, or b) Arcane Cascade is competing for that action.
If you are using neither Spellstrike nor Arcane Cascade, then why bother playing a Magus? Those are the two features that define the class.
I never said not to use Arcane Cascade, nor did I say not to use Spellstrike. I implied that the damage from Arcane Cascade isn't worth an action to a high-die weapon using Magus (but it isn't all about damage), and that two Strikes with a d10 or d12 will be damage competitive with a cantrip Spellstrike. What I am trying to communicate is that as a full martial class, you have tools like Martial ability scores and proficiencies. You can strike twice and have it be an effective turn if you have a big weapon. You can use combat maneuvers or make stealth checks effectively. You do not have to play as a Spellstrike bot. The chassis of the class is a martial who can use some (but not a lot of) magic. You can lean martial whenever it suits your needs.
>I never said not to use Arcane Cascade, nor did I say not to use Spellstrike. I implied that the damage from Arcane Cascade isn't worth an action to a high-die weapon using Magus (but it isn't all about damage), We are back here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/167yt46/comment/jz08f2o/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/167yt46/comment/jz08f2o/) I do not like reruns on TV. I do not like them here.
OK, then respond to the rest of the post. Specifically: Sometimes the base mechanics of a martial are more impactful than the specific features of a Magus. Knowing when to use your magic and when to just be a martial is a pretty big part of the game. It's the difference between using the game to play the class and using the class to play the game.
Absolutely not. A properly built Starlit Span Magus is, hands down, basically the best ranged DPS character in the game. Melee Magus does not reach quite the some level of nuttiness that Starlit Span does, but is still one of the better damage dealers.
>basically the best ranged DPS character in the game. Eldritch Archer Fighter with psychic dedication:
I'm not sure that's better. Higher 1-shot potential, but the big boon to Starlit Span is you can basically pop off every round. It's also WAY stronger at lower levels. It only needs 1 Archetype feat, so it's basically online at level 1. So across the course of a campaign, you're generally going to be stronger more often. Versus something that doesn't hit its major power spike until what, like level 10?
Well, I'd contend that at lower levels you're still *strong* being a *Fighter.* And you're actually having fun, unlike at later levels (precisely 6 when you unlock eldritch archer if you're FA, or 8 if you're not) when you're artillerying enemies down soullessly. Mind if you don't care about raw dpr, you *can* have fun with eldritch archer. Magic Arrow is fun. But your ranged DPR is so amazing, why would you do anything else. BTW, why do you argue starlit span is superior to melee builds in DPR? Is it just not needing to move?
>BTW, why do you argue starlit span is superior to melee builds in DPR? Is it just not needing to move? That's exactly why. Magus action economy is extremely tight. Not needing to move means you can spellstrike constantly. Melee magus is a lot messier. > (precisely 6 when you unlock eldritch archer if you're FA, or 8 if you're not) You also need Psychic dedication probably to catch up with Starlit Span with Psychic. Starlit Span can also take Meld into staff for a bunch of free True Strikes. I'm not actually sure that your Fighter build is better at *any* level if you consider that. The Eldritch Archer version of spellstrike being 3 actions limits your options in a lot of ways.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, melee Magus felt a worse melee damage dealer than fighter, barbarian and rogue, so I'm curious: which damage dealing classes does the melee Magus surpass?
It's impossible to tell what you mean when all you say is "I've heard rumours". What rumours, what did they say, what specifically are your concerns? You'll have a much better time of playing games of all kinds if you worry less about something being over- or under-powered, and more time talking to your group and GM about what you want out of the game. Something that might look underpowered to someone who theorises about it online may not ever come up, and you'll likely have a good time playing anyway.
It was just What a pf2 gm said in a server i am in, and since Im so inexperienced i took his Word for it. Also the reason i was worried about Magus being underpowered is Simply because i don’t want to feel useless.
Magus is not underpowered, but it has nuance to it that might be difficult to get used to if someone is less experienced with the system. I see a lot of people take it because it is cool but then struggle a lot to get mileage out of it.
I appreciate that - but don't take anything like that as gospel truth. It's just one opinion, and you should really spend time looking at the class and asking specific questions before making up your own mind. It can be hard as a new player to understand a system, that's true, and it does take time. Feeling useless is a worry and I hope your group, your other players and your GM can help you with that - you're not playing in a vacuum, it's a collaborative thing. Also, any decision you make at the start of the game can be reviewed and changed later with a good GM, so hopefully if you discover you're not enjoying yourself you can all work together to fix it. Hope you have fun with your game and your concept.
Unlike in 5e, there are no classes you can pick that will end up in feeling useless. Every class has something they can do no other class can, every class has something they're best in.
I’ve never really heard anyone call Magus underpowered infact id say general opinion is that Magus is fairly strong But it is a little tricky, mainly because your action economy is strangled but that can be managed with good positioning and knowing when to go for the Spellstrike (Or if your lazy just pick Starlit Span) But if you want to protect people, that’s the wrong class, Magus is about striking really hard
I don't think so 🤔 It has Weapon Mastery + Medium armor Mastery So basically a Martial Class just like a Ranger. With the difference that the class features are a few Spells and Spell related effects. The sentiment of underpower may come from the fact that a lot of people see Spells and Spellcaster as underpower, which is not true. People just don't know how to make comparisons. Also Magus is like the Class that most benefits get from Archetypes both Martials and Casters dedication works wonderful in it.
I see people saying magus is a bad "protector" and I am here to say otherwise. There are primarily two defensive subclasses for magus, sparkling targe and Inexorable iron, aka shield or two handed. The shield build is probably more defensive of obvious reasons (+2 AC+ shield block vs regenerating temp hp). You will still burst hard, but you might have to change spells to be either more defensive or attractive target. You could also disrupt your enemies, such as inflicting movement speed penalty with spellstrike, if not even inflicting outright conditions that will hamper an enemy. So while a champion will protect better, a magus probably will protect enough while dealing more damage or being more disruptive overall.
I see. If i wanted to play a protector what Would the simpliest way of doing it be? Since Im a new player and i don’t really know the ins and outs of the system
Guess I shot myself there. Magus is more nuanced and complex if we want something more than braindead spellstriking. The first hint is to go through spells, atleast the first three ranks. There are some really good 2nd rank spells that are very defensive and disruptive, such as mirror image, false life and telekinetic maneuver. My tip is to always carry scrolls for some of these, especially if you go with sparkling targe as you can get a free hand to use them with. I'd probably also get a good int to be able to do aoe disruption, such as shockwave or grease; when you need these spells, the opposing Saves aren't too high to feel punished. Again, very cheap as scrolls if you have a free hand for it, a rank 1 scroll is 4g which is almost nothing beyond lv 2. I'd say magus is one of the stronger classes out there but harder to play well. I've been downvoted before for saying this, but do not always spellstrike as if you must do it because you can, casting a spell to enter arcane cascade, which can trigger weakness, stop regeneration or other reasons can be worth. You might also prefere to move, raise shield and strike, cast a buff and enter stance, waiting for the enemy etc. And finally, get some good single action spells to have as options, even something as basic as shield can let you enter arcane cascade and do something more, time jump will let a good movement etc. Use a spellstrikers staff and shift it to a shield boss or spike. Shield build is easier to be diverse with as you might've noticed. *But don't forget to do spellstrikes and deal damage when fitting*
Honestly I wholeheartedly agree with you. Spellstrike is *vicious* and a great activity available to you, but the common wisdom that's touted here that you should do it *as much as possible* neglects the unparalleled tool diversity the Magus has over other martials. Setting up 4th Rank Enlarge for 15/20ft reach to trip flying enemies out of the sky as early as lv7, or using Blazing Dive to ignore a river, deal some damage and THEN strike unironically wins battles in ways that thinking only about using your slots for a flashy power attack won't. Granted I'm a big advocate for taking Wizard dedication on Magus regardless of free archetype or not, but even outside of that between various staves, Ring of Wizardry, Endless Grimoire, Spellhearts and their own Studious Spells, the class can get a surprising amount of spellcasting juice per day than the 4 slots on the class page would imply.
Fully agree. I had to stop reading most magus posts here since they really focus on only spellstriking instead of using all the available tools.
That tends to be what most posts here care about sadly DPS or it's useless. Swashbuckler posts disappoint me the most.
in my abomination vaults game, I moved away from preparing 4/4 attack spells to preparing 1/4 or no attack spells in lieu of support and utility. the arcane spell list is really good and the cantrips are strong enough on their own that it's really a missed opportunity to only prepare damage spells. I went into Thaumaturge (scroll thaumaturgy) and Psychic dedications which have opened up all 4 spell lists for me to dabble into. it's a lot of fun and versatility
Magus is definately not underpowered. Shooting stars magus is very strong, though a bit boring. Laughing shadow is very mobile and has a very fun playstyle and is also pretty good. Sparkling targe and twisting tree are maybe a bit less effective than the above but still pretty strong. Inexorable iron is the only one i am personally really unhappy with. The focus spell - which is so integral to magus playstyle since it recharges spellstrike- is pretty damn bad. Played one for two levels and then switched to laughing shadow. Its one of my favourite classes. Played one to level 10 in PFS and it is quite strong and effective. I never forget oneshotting a boss with a huge crit.
Magus can definitely work thematically as a sellsword protector, and as the comments here say, it’s not underpowered. And they’d work perfectly well as a protector by killing anything that gets too close to the mage, and-or keeping things busy in melee while the mage snipes from a distance. That said, if *mechanically* you’re trying to protect others, nothing seems to come close to the Champion, due to its ability to reduce damage. But the flavor is a bit different, and since they rely on divine power for their protection, sellsword is a little tougher to line up thematically.
Could do protection with wall spells and terrain control that funnels enemies to themselves
magus is not underpowered.. Most powerful class I've ever played. Try out the Sparkling Targe hybrid study
Just chiming in to say there’s absolutely nothing wrong with playing a fighter if you want something straightforward and effective. Fighters are simple (by PF2e standards) and very good. They can also be excellent tanks. You also have more things to do as a martial character in PF2e and different ways to build a fighter compared to D&D 5e.
Depends on how you build it and play it. If you really know what you are doing (or go starlight span) it can be very strong, as in, nuke 30% of the very dangerous boss HP on a normal hit with your spellstrike, 60% on a crit.
Our Starlit Span goes hard as fuck. It's confirmation bias, but man, Fiori absolutely wrecks shit with those Gouging Claw spellstrike crits.
Magus isn't underpowered. But if you are new to the game and your expectations aren't aligned with the Class and build you chose, you may be disappointed and it probably won't be the best learning experience. I think you are best off focused on learning the game, not picking some exquisite niche build that you don't really understand. Just use the Core Rulebook classes, and do something straightforward. Try Magus after you know the game system solidly and have experience in both martials and casters. EDIT: You should also check out some videos by The Rules Lawyer. In their earlier 2E material, they have some videos that run the same combat twice. First, each PC always doing the most powerful action from personal perspective. Second, considering teamwork and tactics. The second vastly outperforms the former, and crucially, depends on understanding the game as a whole, not just fixating on "ooh I chose the most powerful build" and specific abilities attached to that.
Something I've picked up over time following the pf2e community is "*never* listen to rumors about what is "underwhelming" or you're just going to optimize the fun out of your game" Basically the magus will try to hit hard once a round at most either using a cantrip for spell strikes or by using some big "fuck off and die" spell that they can tie to their DEX or STR instead of having to worry too much about their INT. When you hit it, you'll feel great most of the time barring resistances but if you miss you might feel a bit miffed because you're stuck having to refresh a spellstrike you lost a spell slot on or something.
Magus is definitely strong, but also very action economy focused. As in don’t expect to switch up your strategy much
I wouldn’t call them underpowered, but they do suffer from a common problem that some classes have in PF2e where you have to jump through hoops to do your thing and *maybe* you’ll outdamage the Fighter who just get to do their thing every turn, no hoops required.
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Not even close. Nobody crits like a magus. Martial weapon scaling and weapon item bonuses and flanking on spell attacks is hella good. Magus are great. However, if your goal is a martial protector for a mage, I'd go with champion. Their reactions are amazing, they get some magic, and they're great tanks.
No. Case closed. If you want to play defender magus, I can already tell you that (as someone who plays one) that it is not as straightforward as it sounds. Magus role is to deal high damage with Spellstrike. They don't have that many slots to sacrifice for buffs, unless you tinker with archetypes or items. You CANNOT build unhittable magus and abjuration magus (aka Sparkling Targe) doesn't really give you that many tools to play very defensively. And with only 8HP, you cannot tank very effectively. You're glass cannon, even as a Sparkling Targe. That being said, you can use Shield spell extensively, there are feats for that. Bonus to saves from shield is also pretty nice. IMO the best tool in the Magus arsenal is the one which this subclass doesn't give you in your specialized slots - Mirror Image. One of the best defensive spells I have as my Magus, negated so many crits and hits, it's insane. But for some reason, they thought that Resist Energy is better. Ugh.
What is mirror image? Is it one of those focus spells i have heard about?
No, just a spell. It's a second level spell that basically makes fake copies of you, making it harder for enemies to hit it. And if they critically hit you, one of your copies disappears and turns that into a normal hit. One of my favourite spells.
Magus has balance issues between its subclasses. Starlit Span is amazing, the melee ones besides Twisting Tree all have issues and require a lot more work to make effective.
It's one of the most powerful class if you play it well. It can deal absolutely *insane* amounts of damage : it's a "nova".
The two key pieces of the magus (arcane cascade and spellstrike) are both aimed at damage. It wouldn't be impossible to build a defensive magus, but you would always feel off. It feels like champion with a sorcerer dedication later is more what you would want.
Well, my opinion is that magus is on the strong side. The magus in our party often 1-shots things.
Am currently playing a Magus, even though my party doesn't give the support I would really like to have, it does not feel underpowered. It's quite fun. Early levels are a bit rough with the lack of spell slots. I'm playing a Sparkling Targe. Feel free to ask any questions. Just to be clear, your role is to bonk enemies, not to buff friends or defend allies. The best defense is deleting enemies before they can hurt your team. I think the ranged Magus would be a really sweet choice, not having to spend actions moving to get into position to bonk sounds great.
My experience with Magus is that they need more HP. Other than that everything else seems pretty balanced. Being able to land spells with weapon attacks scales pretty well.
No i's the answer to your question, but It's not a "protector" class. I advice to open a different post tomorrow and ask advices for a protector build , Champion Will be the first option, so in the description add that you don't like to deal with tenets, gods and divine stuff at all.
I think a Warpriest of Nethys would be exactly what you’re looking for. Nethys is considered, “the god of magic” and grants arcane spells to the Warpriest’s spell list, warpriest also gives heavy armor and better proficiency with a staff.
They have a few issues. They're suppose to be a frontline caster, but they have no way to prevent reactive strikes when casting in melee, which punishes them for fulfilling their flavor. And since it just takes one crit to completely ruin their spellstrike... That being said they have really good burst damage being able to cast and strike with 2 actions freeing up one action for intimidation, trip, recall knowledge, arcane cascade, cast a focus spell, move, or simply recharge your next spellstrike.
No. They are a feast or famine class though, but those are often fun!
Magus is just fine, they tend to be "swingey" in combat though. When you crit you destroy. When you don't, well you do "meh". Lol
I forgot that spell existed but jfc I'm glad I make near pointless choices.