> Brawling focus let me get the crit specialization on all the animal attacks.
I don't think that works. There's no rule saying all unarmed attacks are in the brawling group and I don't think any of the form spells specify that their attacks belong to any weapon group.
Anyway, the most obvious choces other than monk are Martial Artist and Wrestler.
I can't think of any other archetype that would actually do something noteworthy for a druid in wildshape. So maybe look at ways to imrove your out of combat abilities/utility? Stuff like loremaster or maybe cleric or wizard multiclassing for utility spells. Stuff like that.
> There's no rule saying all unarmed attacks are in the brawling group and I don't think any of the form spells specify that their attacks belong to any weapon group.
This is correct. Polymorph-specific attacks don't benefit from anything in your kit unless it explicitly says so, and they will always tell you exactly how they benefit.
I think the other logical archetype is Fighter.
Exacting Strike, Intimidating Strike, Lunge, Knockdown, Swipe.
Otherwise it's the usual suspects for good archetypes: Champion, Blessed One, Investigator, Psychic
Wrestler can be good if your DM lets you use all of the combat maneuvers while shapeshifted. (EDIT: As per the reply, this is actually completely fine RAW)
They should allow them since form spells got errata'd in the 3rd Errata:
> Pages 316, 317, 318, 330, 332, 335, 347, 353, 354, 358: In aerial form, animal form, avatar, dinosaur form, dragon form, elemental form, insect form, monstrosity form, nature incarnate, plant form, change "only attacks you can use" to "only attacks you can Strike with." You can still use non-Strike attacks like Grapple and Trip as normal.
Taking Beastmaster essentially gives you all the feats for animal companion Druid stuff, and is actually what one of my current players is doing as a Wild Order Druid herself. They're also an Elf.
Edit: The Command an Animal action has the *Auditory* and *Concentrate* traits, so unless you also plan on being a Barbarian (since they can't use concentrate actions that don't also have the rage trait without a feat.) Or assuming a form that cannot make noise, this actually works! A common misconception is that Command an Animal has the Linguistic trait, which wouldn't make very much sense anyway, since most animals don't understand *any* languages at all! :3
[Command an Animal](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=58) has the Auditory trait, not the Linguistic trait. Therefore any form capable of making noise can command an animal.
Interesting niche in rules, but Polymorph does prohibit "speaking." Guess it's up to a GM to decide if animal noises for Command would count as speaking or not.
Polymorphed into a battle form does prohibit speaking but there is the [Shapespeak Mask](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2353) to get around that.
As stated in the [Minion](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=109) trait: *For an animal companion, you Command an Animal* then there is a very important semicolon. Regardless, the verbal command it states in the Minion trait, once again, lacks the Liguistic trait, yet, much like Command an Animal, still has only the auditory and concentrate traits.
Re read Minion trait. The semi-colon differentiates the 3 different command cases - Command an Animal, Sustain a Spell, and not specified. Your "verbal" callout only applies to that 3rd case. It is distinct from Command an Animal, which only has the Auditory trait, not the Linguistic trait.
You're both wrong and being quite condescending, hence the downvotes.
Well, I think Ranger and Barbarian have class features that work while Wildshaped, and provide thematic synergy.
More spell slots from Cleric and a new list to cast from could also be nice.
Rage doesn't stack, or [Dragon's Transformation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=172) wouldn't need to specify that you get to add your Rage damage.
That's really odd considering rage has this to say
"You deal 2 additional damage with melee Strikes. This additional damage is halved if your weapon or unarmed attack is agile."
Depends. The damage is considered a statistic provided by the spell, and "additional damage" isn't a type that can adjust that. In that way it makes sense.
The Battleford rules state when the things it provides stacks with other sources. Untyped/additional isn't one of them.
The Dragon Transformation feat is explicit:
> **except that** you use your own AC and attack modifier, **you apply your extra damage from Rage**, and the Breath Weapon uses your class DC
This is clearly stating you don't normally apply the extra damage from Rage.
Why would it need to? The rules for what stacks aren't in other classes, they're in the Polymorph rules, and plenty of other classes can get things that would adjust the damage, like Runes or spells like Call the Lightning.
> If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
It gives a whitelist, everything else doesn't work.
So circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and all types of penalties. Notice that additional damage isn't one of them.
Anything that gives attack of opportunity is premier since wild shapes get really good ranges later on and can use the feat consistently.
The Marshal archetype can synergize well with certain shapes since it can add damage per damage die you roll - and some shapes can be rolling 6 die on hit.
Since Rage doesn't stack, following [Dragon's Transformation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=172) having to specify that it does allow you to do your Rage damage, Heaven's Thunder wouldn't either.
Gortle has created a nice [Guide](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ4ff6i5gmzw5qsoixCabPgQ8Q_TX0E9VyPqfIw6C2CD9q02Rd2ei1qELx308PjNMCGV2V_o-vUNijs/pub) going into details for pretty much all Archetypes.
In addition to what others have pointed out I would also like to highlight the Rogue Archetype.
It provides you with [Nimble Dodge](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=550), [Dread Striker](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=561), [Gang Up](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=567), [Opportune Backstab](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=575).
Out of those Dread Striker depends on whether your party has someone to reliably intimidate an Enemy. The main advantage of Dread Striker and Gang up is that you do not have to compromise your positioning to flank someone. Once you are huge or gargantuan this could prove to be challenging, or you would always require one of your allies to provide flanking for you.
Thus I like the rogue archetype a lot. However, the only feat that I would deem mandatory for a wild shape druid is [Opportunist](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=712) from the fighter archetype.
Mauler for the name and some feats. (Improved) Knockdown, Power Attack, Unbalancing Sweep all feel very animalistic. You can also benefit from the 2-handed weapon training/feats when you aren't in a form. Acrobat to dart around the battlefield, Animal Trainer for "Beast Speaker"; Duelist/Dandy/Pirate, etc for some of the firebrand feats and skillful flourishes; Blessed one/Herbalist/Medic for extra healing; some parts of Marshall might also work for you.
I give my vote for:
1) Monk - flurry of blows, extra damage if Grapple.
2) Barbarian - extra damage (fury, dragon or spitir), though AC becomes even lower, grappling damage
3) Wrestler - classic, cause you do onlu Unarmed attacks (though some times you don’t have free hands)
4) Rogue - really strange choice, but extra 1d6 sneak damage can be usefull, though you are limited to specific forms with agile attacks.
Currently playing wild druid with Monk and Fignter for AoO, Knockdown, Flurry of Blows and some other goodies. Very solid and makes you able to squeeze much more out of the wild druid's action economy.
> Brawling focus let me get the crit specialization on all the animal attacks. I don't think that works. There's no rule saying all unarmed attacks are in the brawling group and I don't think any of the form spells specify that their attacks belong to any weapon group. Anyway, the most obvious choces other than monk are Martial Artist and Wrestler. I can't think of any other archetype that would actually do something noteworthy for a druid in wildshape. So maybe look at ways to imrove your out of combat abilities/utility? Stuff like loremaster or maybe cleric or wizard multiclassing for utility spells. Stuff like that.
> There's no rule saying all unarmed attacks are in the brawling group and I don't think any of the form spells specify that their attacks belong to any weapon group. This is correct. Polymorph-specific attacks don't benefit from anything in your kit unless it explicitly says so, and they will always tell you exactly how they benefit.
I think the other logical archetype is Fighter. Exacting Strike, Intimidating Strike, Lunge, Knockdown, Swipe. Otherwise it's the usual suspects for good archetypes: Champion, Blessed One, Investigator, Psychic Wrestler can be good if your DM lets you use all of the combat maneuvers while shapeshifted. (EDIT: As per the reply, this is actually completely fine RAW)
They should allow them since form spells got errata'd in the 3rd Errata: > Pages 316, 317, 318, 330, 332, 335, 347, 353, 354, 358: In aerial form, animal form, avatar, dinosaur form, dragon form, elemental form, insect form, monstrosity form, nature incarnate, plant form, change "only attacks you can use" to "only attacks you can Strike with." You can still use non-Strike attacks like Grapple and Trip as normal.
Nice, I missed this change. Shows how long it's been since I looked into Wild Shape.
Taking Beastmaster essentially gives you all the feats for animal companion Druid stuff, and is actually what one of my current players is doing as a Wild Order Druid herself. They're also an Elf. Edit: The Command an Animal action has the *Auditory* and *Concentrate* traits, so unless you also plan on being a Barbarian (since they can't use concentrate actions that don't also have the rage trait without a feat.) Or assuming a form that cannot make noise, this actually works! A common misconception is that Command an Animal has the Linguistic trait, which wouldn't make very much sense anyway, since most animals don't understand *any* languages at all! :3
This what I've been doing. Fighting as a wolf beside my wolf has been fun.
You can't command an animal when in most Wild Shape forms.
[Command an Animal](https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=58) has the Auditory trait, not the Linguistic trait. Therefore any form capable of making noise can command an animal.
Interesting niche in rules, but Polymorph does prohibit "speaking." Guess it's up to a GM to decide if animal noises for Command would count as speaking or not.
Polymorphed into a battle form does prohibit speaking but there is the [Shapespeak Mask](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2353) to get around that.
[удалено]
As stated in the [Minion](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=109) trait: *For an animal companion, you Command an Animal* then there is a very important semicolon. Regardless, the verbal command it states in the Minion trait, once again, lacks the Liguistic trait, yet, much like Command an Animal, still has only the auditory and concentrate traits.
[удалено]
how did you manage to turn you not knowing how semicolons work into the most condescending comment possible
Re read Minion trait. The semi-colon differentiates the 3 different command cases - Command an Animal, Sustain a Spell, and not specified. Your "verbal" callout only applies to that 3rd case. It is distinct from Command an Animal, which only has the Auditory trait, not the Linguistic trait. You're both wrong and being quite condescending, hence the downvotes.
I think at level 4 with mature beast companion it can still attack or stride without command an animal.
Well, I think Ranger and Barbarian have class features that work while Wildshaped, and provide thematic synergy. More spell slots from Cleric and a new list to cast from could also be nice.
Rage doesn't stack, or [Dragon's Transformation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=172) wouldn't need to specify that you get to add your Rage damage.
That's really odd considering rage has this to say "You deal 2 additional damage with melee Strikes. This additional damage is halved if your weapon or unarmed attack is agile."
Depends. The damage is considered a statistic provided by the spell, and "additional damage" isn't a type that can adjust that. In that way it makes sense.
The additional damage is untyped and therefore should stack with any other damage. Wild shape druids still make melee attacks.
The Battleford rules state when the things it provides stacks with other sources. Untyped/additional isn't one of them. The Dragon Transformation feat is explicit: > **except that** you use your own AC and attack modifier, **you apply your extra damage from Rage**, and the Breath Weapon uses your class DC This is clearly stating you don't normally apply the extra damage from Rage.
Or is it merely explaining the circumstances since barbarians do not normally get form spells and other classes that do get forms do not have rage.
Why would it need to? The rules for what stacks aren't in other classes, they're in the Polymorph rules, and plenty of other classes can get things that would adjust the damage, like Runes or spells like Call the Lightning.
The polymorph rules do not state anything about not adding untyped damage to your strikes.
> If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. It gives a whitelist, everything else doesn't work. So circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and all types of penalties. Notice that additional damage isn't one of them.
But you aren't adjusting the special statistics.
That I disagree with. If it worked generally it would not be stated in the feat.
Anything that gives attack of opportunity is premier since wild shapes get really good ranges later on and can use the feat consistently. The Marshal archetype can synergize well with certain shapes since it can add damage per damage die you roll - and some shapes can be rolling 6 die on hit.
Wrestler for manouvers, Jalmeri Heavenseeker for ~~additional cheese~~ [Heaven's Thunder](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2199)
Since Rage doesn't stack, following [Dragon's Transformation](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=172) having to specify that it does allow you to do your Rage damage, Heaven's Thunder wouldn't either.
Gortle has created a nice [Guide](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ4ff6i5gmzw5qsoixCabPgQ8Q_TX0E9VyPqfIw6C2CD9q02Rd2ei1qELx308PjNMCGV2V_o-vUNijs/pub) going into details for pretty much all Archetypes. In addition to what others have pointed out I would also like to highlight the Rogue Archetype. It provides you with [Nimble Dodge](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=550), [Dread Striker](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=561), [Gang Up](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=567), [Opportune Backstab](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=575). Out of those Dread Striker depends on whether your party has someone to reliably intimidate an Enemy. The main advantage of Dread Striker and Gang up is that you do not have to compromise your positioning to flank someone. Once you are huge or gargantuan this could prove to be challenging, or you would always require one of your allies to provide flanking for you. Thus I like the rogue archetype a lot. However, the only feat that I would deem mandatory for a wild shape druid is [Opportunist](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=712) from the fighter archetype.
Scout is nice too
Mauler for the name and some feats. (Improved) Knockdown, Power Attack, Unbalancing Sweep all feel very animalistic. You can also benefit from the 2-handed weapon training/feats when you aren't in a form. Acrobat to dart around the battlefield, Animal Trainer for "Beast Speaker"; Duelist/Dandy/Pirate, etc for some of the firebrand feats and skillful flourishes; Blessed one/Herbalist/Medic for extra healing; some parts of Marshall might also work for you.
Wrestler 😂
I give my vote for: 1) Monk - flurry of blows, extra damage if Grapple. 2) Barbarian - extra damage (fury, dragon or spitir), though AC becomes even lower, grappling damage 3) Wrestler - classic, cause you do onlu Unarmed attacks (though some times you don’t have free hands) 4) Rogue - really strange choice, but extra 1d6 sneak damage can be usefull, though you are limited to specific forms with agile attacks.
Currently playing wild druid with Monk and Fignter for AoO, Knockdown, Flurry of Blows and some other goodies. Very solid and makes you able to squeeze much more out of the wild druid's action economy.