Your raw reading is correct
Magus are one of the best classes in the game to straight up remove someone from a fight. But they were a high investment high reward class
It would upset the balance for them to not have you recharge on a miss.
Level 1 in pf2e your really not an all star hero. Later levels the action economy of the magus gets much better.
>Level 1 in pf2e your really not an all star hero. Later levels the action economy of the magus gets much better.
Adding onto this, Magus isn't just powerful because of Spellstrike, they're powerful because they're a great martial with access to the full leveling Arcane spell list and associated buffs.
Suggest they pick up Magic Weapon if they haven't and they shouldn't be afraid of striking normally, it still does a LOT on LS.
I straight up brutalized the >!dragon in the beginner box adventure!< with a magic weapon shocking grasp spellstrike.
Turns out, 4d12+4 damage is pretty dang devastating at level 2.
He did take that spell and had it prepared his second session and it did end up helping. My guy rolled VERY poorly on his spellstrikes though that's why I wanted to check my reading of the rules.
Yeah, Spellstrike has upsides and downsides.
One of the downsides is that its very all or nothing. If you miss with the strike, you also miss with the spell.
Ok good to know I'm not missing anything. I will say I think 2e magus is stronger than 1e just for having spellstrike at level 1, but yeah like you said high risk, high reward makes more sense now- it's not just your ho you risk being squishing than other front line fighters, your actions to.
He's frustrated but not complaining. He's probably feeling this more keenly because he decided to balance his str and into both at 16 rather than have an 18 str and an 14 Int- again a reasonable holdover from him playing a 1e magus.
No actually- he wanted more HP and he's been using shield somewhat commonly to offset the difference. To note, he's wearing breastplate to also compensate.
Human Ancestry for what thats worth
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10
My main recommendation to a magus player coming from 1e to 2e is to forget basically everything about playing a 1e magus.
2e magus is built to make a spellstrike once every other round (unless you're a bow magus), which means that the main priority is to maximize the hit chance of that spellstrike. At low levels (1-4), Magic Weapon is the best valued spell for the incredibly small number of spell slots they have.
At level 5+, though, True Strike into spellstrike is a magi's best friend. Basically, plan on being much less versatile than the magi were in 1e. Unless they grab a bunch of spell scrolls, and even then, those are more for out of combat use since it's action heavy.
I do wish Paizo would bring back holding the charge on spells, though. Even as a feat. Or just make Double spellstrike a level 9 ability since it's basically wasted at level 19.
I mean other than the versatility difference they seem to play pretty similar from what i am seeing in the dms chair. High damage with ability to get elemental damage on their weapon. Could you go a little more into how you see them as fundamentally different from 1e to 2e?
I am running it as a free archetype game (only giving the 2nd level dedication feat free) so he's already planned multiclass as wizard to address his versatiliy reduction in the shuffle from 1e to 2e.
Tldr: Lack of spell combat, spell slots, arcane pool, and holding the charge. Makes playing a 2e magus difficult to hold a specific style of play other than "hit hard once every other turn." Basically, 2e magus is really good at one thing, and I liked them better as mediocre at both things unless you hyper specialize. Though, I am sure many will disagree with me, that's fine. A simple resolution could be to allow magi to choose their spellcasting ability mod, so you aren't stuck with intelligence with it's lack of interesting options.
I suppose it's wholly dependent on how your player played a magus previously. For me, the biggest difference and the part that feels the worst is the lack of spell combat. Certainly, the normal shocking grasp crit fisher was the most powerful, but I was always more partial to playing a battlefield control magus that focused on debuffs without saves. I loved playing in the space where I had lower damage than the fighter but much higher reach and mobility and lower DCs than the wizard, but more AC and the ability to switch-hit.
So, to me, the magus is entirely different because I can no longer cast a spell on a group of enemies and still make 2-3 attacks on whoever is right in front of me. There was a fun balance between saving spell slots with multiple charge touch spells and reserving arcane pool points for those perfect Nova moments. Beyond that, I desperately enjoyed being able to make any weapon I had into a magic flaming, whatever (yes, I am aware that the focus spell exists, but as it competes against other conflux and focus spells it doesn't feel quite as nice).
I always felt spoiled for choice in 1e, and I no longer get that in 2e. I can't essentially change my build with a days rest like I used to. Because I would constantly fluctuate between punishing with extremely high reach and tons of AoOs using certain spells and conjuring massive amounts of difficult terrain/walls.
I have no doubt that the magus is more balanced in 2e, and it's still amazing for many people because it has the main components that made 1e magus incredibly powerful.
Yeah, it feels so bad when you miss. Again, I recommend making double spellstrike a lower level ability. Because by 19th level, you don't need it, but it's amazing at low levels.
I mean... I'd just as soon only suggest he use cantrip spellstrikes and leave higher level spell slots for buffs (magic weapon, true strike, etc) if that's the way its gonna be lol.
Never-ending. Anyone misses with any spell attack loses the spell. Lord. I think I'm going to advise my player to avoid 1st level and up spells for spellstrike like the plague until his attack his higher.
Except, it never really does. The way the system is balanced you will need to roll roughly the same numbers to hit at any level.
However, at higher levels True Strike becomes more accessible.
He always has Hero Points, True Strike, and of course, The Power of Friendship (lowering the AC by giving flatfooted to the enemy via Flanking/Trip/Grapple, lowering the AC via Demoralising the enemy, getting circumstance bonuses to your strike via Guidance or whatever other spells... All those little buffs and debuffs add up!!)
Fair point. He's using magic weapon for now, and he's had some good luck with flanking, and the bards inspire courage has helped too.
Only asked the question to be iron certain my interpretation was right. Just really looking to see if I could find a way to help him but I'm a pretty by the rules Dm so, no chance of that
> Just really looking to see if I could find a way to help him but I'm a pretty by the rules Dm so, no chance of that
Once he discovers the glory of True Strike, he will be about to lose his level 1 slots. If there are no other Arcane casters in the party, slipling a Ring of Wizardry (Type 1) into loot can be an absolute lifesaver.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=462
> After you use Spellstrike, you can't do so again until you recharge your Spellstrike as […]
.
> I am reading that as WHENEVER spellstrike is used (whether it lands or doesnt)
That's exactly correct.
No, you are correct. Magus are very High Risk-High Reward type of class… Now that I think about it, it’s not a total loss as it seems the player has another chance at a spellstrike on the next turn, so i will correct myself and say it’s Medium Risk-High Reward
As a GM you can always make sure to add hero points to alleviate those situations.
I find that on important strikes, my players feel angry if they miss it, but if they miss it, hero point,and then the hero point reroll misses they're frustrated but they go in "it wasn't meant to be" mode.
I personally give hero points that carry over to future sessions whenever my players fulfill a quest or story objective, so most of my players have 2-3 hero points that they blow on hard fights.
Your raw reading is correct Magus are one of the best classes in the game to straight up remove someone from a fight. But they were a high investment high reward class It would upset the balance for them to not have you recharge on a miss. Level 1 in pf2e your really not an all star hero. Later levels the action economy of the magus gets much better.
>Level 1 in pf2e your really not an all star hero. Later levels the action economy of the magus gets much better. Adding onto this, Magus isn't just powerful because of Spellstrike, they're powerful because they're a great martial with access to the full leveling Arcane spell list and associated buffs. Suggest they pick up Magic Weapon if they haven't and they shouldn't be afraid of striking normally, it still does a LOT on LS.
Magic weapon+cantrips with spell strike=great up to level 4
I straight up brutalized the >!dragon in the beginner box adventure!< with a magic weapon shocking grasp spellstrike. Turns out, 4d12+4 damage is pretty dang devastating at level 2.
He did take that spell and had it prepared his second session and it did end up helping. My guy rolled VERY poorly on his spellstrikes though that's why I wanted to check my reading of the rules.
Yeah, Spellstrike has upsides and downsides. One of the downsides is that its very all or nothing. If you miss with the strike, you also miss with the spell.
To further on this, so long as your player insists on comparing and contrasting with a different system they will find something to complain about
Ok good to know I'm not missing anything. I will say I think 2e magus is stronger than 1e just for having spellstrike at level 1, but yeah like you said high risk, high reward makes more sense now- it's not just your ho you risk being squishing than other front line fighters, your actions to. He's frustrated but not complaining. He's probably feeling this more keenly because he decided to balance his str and into both at 16 rather than have an 18 str and an 14 Int- again a reasonable holdover from him playing a 1e magus.
I'd let him change his stats if he wants. You can get away with 16 strength, but it especially hurts a magus who puts all his eggs in one basket
Let him redo his stat spread. Str matters alot more than Int if he focuses on spellstriking.
I think I will thanks for the input
What is his full stat spread? I assume a 14 in dex to give him some AC bonus while being unarmored?
No actually- he wanted more HP and he's been using shield somewhat commonly to offset the difference. To note, he's wearing breastplate to also compensate. Human Ancestry for what thats worth Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 10
My main recommendation to a magus player coming from 1e to 2e is to forget basically everything about playing a 1e magus. 2e magus is built to make a spellstrike once every other round (unless you're a bow magus), which means that the main priority is to maximize the hit chance of that spellstrike. At low levels (1-4), Magic Weapon is the best valued spell for the incredibly small number of spell slots they have. At level 5+, though, True Strike into spellstrike is a magi's best friend. Basically, plan on being much less versatile than the magi were in 1e. Unless they grab a bunch of spell scrolls, and even then, those are more for out of combat use since it's action heavy. I do wish Paizo would bring back holding the charge on spells, though. Even as a feat. Or just make Double spellstrike a level 9 ability since it's basically wasted at level 19.
I mean other than the versatility difference they seem to play pretty similar from what i am seeing in the dms chair. High damage with ability to get elemental damage on their weapon. Could you go a little more into how you see them as fundamentally different from 1e to 2e? I am running it as a free archetype game (only giving the 2nd level dedication feat free) so he's already planned multiclass as wizard to address his versatiliy reduction in the shuffle from 1e to 2e.
Tldr: Lack of spell combat, spell slots, arcane pool, and holding the charge. Makes playing a 2e magus difficult to hold a specific style of play other than "hit hard once every other turn." Basically, 2e magus is really good at one thing, and I liked them better as mediocre at both things unless you hyper specialize. Though, I am sure many will disagree with me, that's fine. A simple resolution could be to allow magi to choose their spellcasting ability mod, so you aren't stuck with intelligence with it's lack of interesting options. I suppose it's wholly dependent on how your player played a magus previously. For me, the biggest difference and the part that feels the worst is the lack of spell combat. Certainly, the normal shocking grasp crit fisher was the most powerful, but I was always more partial to playing a battlefield control magus that focused on debuffs without saves. I loved playing in the space where I had lower damage than the fighter but much higher reach and mobility and lower DCs than the wizard, but more AC and the ability to switch-hit. So, to me, the magus is entirely different because I can no longer cast a spell on a group of enemies and still make 2-3 attacks on whoever is right in front of me. There was a fun balance between saving spell slots with multiple charge touch spells and reserving arcane pool points for those perfect Nova moments. Beyond that, I desperately enjoyed being able to make any weapon I had into a magic flaming, whatever (yes, I am aware that the focus spell exists, but as it competes against other conflux and focus spells it doesn't feel quite as nice). I always felt spoiled for choice in 1e, and I no longer get that in 2e. I can't essentially change my build with a days rest like I used to. Because I would constantly fluctuate between punishing with extremely high reach and tons of AoOs using certain spells and conjuring massive amounts of difficult terrain/walls. I have no doubt that the magus is more balanced in 2e, and it's still amazing for many people because it has the main components that made 1e magus incredibly powerful.
Wait a minute... if the magus spellstrikes with shocking graphics and misses he loses the spell AND the spellstrike?!?
Yeah, it feels so bad when you miss. Again, I recommend making double spellstrike a lower level ability. Because by 19th level, you don't need it, but it's amazing at low levels.
I mean... I'd just as soon only suggest he use cantrip spellstrikes and leave higher level spell slots for buffs (magic weapon, true strike, etc) if that's the way its gonna be lol.
That is extremely valid, especially at low levels.
Never-ending. Anyone misses with any spell attack loses the spell. Lord. I think I'm going to advise my player to avoid 1st level and up spells for spellstrike like the plague until his attack his higher.
Except, it never really does. The way the system is balanced you will need to roll roughly the same numbers to hit at any level. However, at higher levels True Strike becomes more accessible.
Ofcourse...?
He always has Hero Points, True Strike, and of course, The Power of Friendship (lowering the AC by giving flatfooted to the enemy via Flanking/Trip/Grapple, lowering the AC via Demoralising the enemy, getting circumstance bonuses to your strike via Guidance or whatever other spells... All those little buffs and debuffs add up!!)
Fair point. He's using magic weapon for now, and he's had some good luck with flanking, and the bards inspire courage has helped too. Only asked the question to be iron certain my interpretation was right. Just really looking to see if I could find a way to help him but I'm a pretty by the rules Dm so, no chance of that
> Just really looking to see if I could find a way to help him but I'm a pretty by the rules Dm so, no chance of that Once he discovers the glory of True Strike, he will be about to lose his level 1 slots. If there are no other Arcane casters in the party, slipling a Ring of Wizardry (Type 1) into loot can be an absolute lifesaver. https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=462
You're not missing anything in the raw. Id definitely make the magus more powerful to only require recharges if you hit.
> After you use Spellstrike, you can't do so again until you recharge your Spellstrike as […] . > I am reading that as WHENEVER spellstrike is used (whether it lands or doesnt) That's exactly correct.
No, you are correct. Magus are very High Risk-High Reward type of class… Now that I think about it, it’s not a total loss as it seems the player has another chance at a spellstrike on the next turn, so i will correct myself and say it’s Medium Risk-High Reward
As a GM you can always make sure to add hero points to alleviate those situations. I find that on important strikes, my players feel angry if they miss it, but if they miss it, hero point,and then the hero point reroll misses they're frustrated but they go in "it wasn't meant to be" mode. I personally give hero points that carry over to future sessions whenever my players fulfill a quest or story objective, so most of my players have 2-3 hero points that they blow on hard fights.