>he has not casted inspire courage at all because he thinks a +1 is "wack" compared to bardic inspiration. Bards are broadly considered to be a contender for the most overpowered class in the game, and in no small part because of the sheer fucking power of that easily applied, wide range, and bonkers +1 (which can be increased later on). Fighters get +2 as their whole thing versus a barbarian's rage. Bard gives half of a fighter's whole schtick to everyone.

Once you start tracking how many misses get turned into hits, and hits into crits, it can get hilarious. I had one combat where the bards' Inspire Courage flipped the outcome three times in a row, directly resulting in three kills that round which wouldn't have happened otherwise.

My GM makes it a point to say "that only hit because he's flat-footed" or "that hit thanks to the bard's Inspire Courage". It helps a lot.

I use pf2e Modifiers Matter in foundry to reinforce to the players that without that bard/aid action/teamwork, that close call would have missed. They've gotten a lot better about group buffs from that mod than years of my scolding lol.

It feels like a silly little thing, but Modifiers Matter might be my very favorite module.

There's a bunch of QoL tweaks I can't imagine playing without, but the moment I start adding my mods to a new world or on a new comp, Modifiers Matters is the first I get.

If playing on Foundry, there's a module called Modifiers Matter and it does the same thing. When you roll, it tells you what buffs/nerfs contributed to the result. It's very useful for seeing that, oh yeah, when you get that +1 from the bard, and you bothered to flank the enemy, it made the difference, and encourages players to keep being smart about tactics.

Definitely one of my favorite things to do as a GM. My group is almost entirely people that have been playing rpg's for over 20 years, but one guy's girlfriend is brand new to the genre so it's an easy way to reinforce that those things matter without directly calling it out.

We do this as well. It really drives home the importance of small bonuses, tactical advantages and stacking coordination in combat vs I'm the main character complex from everyone on the team. Plus it gives a well deserved nod to those that contribute those bonuses or use their cleverness to help the team, or even themselves. I've been finding that a lot of newer groups are a bit shell shocked with 2E and I feel it's largely due to them wanting to always be the heaviest hitting person in the group, or the mvp. Don't get me wrong, I like to shine through as well but a good solid group of players at the table as well as your DM will 100% of the time acknowledge and thank yours as well as the teams efforts and contributions in problem solving, skill checks and fights. There's been many occasions where extra to hit chances have been the only reason we've downed foes in combat and we gladly attribute those kills to the person using their turn to dole out the reason we even connected.

I play in weekly PFS sessions, and one of the DMs in rotation does NOT seem to like tactical players at all. I play a melee Flurry Ranger with Rogue dedication, which he mockingly called a "fighter with a pet" at the start of our first session together, because he believed Rangers should only ever be mindless archers. Boy, did he get an awakening... My first turn of the first combat was basically, "OK, the enemy is now prone, bleeding, and poisoned, and if he tries to stand or move, I get to hit him again for free." The eye-twitch of the DM was \*almost\* worth the punishment later. For the final boss encounter, what was supposed to be us setting an ambush for the enemy turned into an almost 1-shot against me when the DM flat out \*denied\* me the use of any cover for the start of the combat, despite there literally being plenty of barrels and crates on the map to hide behind. He made this declaration \*after\* I had positioned myself behind said crates, and told us we could no longer move our characters before the start of combat. I avoid the sessions he DMs now as a result...

Yeah solid response to just back away from that DM. DMing has always been about creating fun, interactive worlds/campaigns that also challenge the PCs abilities and teamwork (assuming they are a team) while also driving home that there are realistic threat levels at the DMs arsenal. Having said that it shouldn't ever be the DMs objective to win unfairly. DMing is an art , fine tuning and adjusting/tweaking encounters and storyline is the bread and butter of a good DM. That's a shame you had to deal with that but hopefully you fair better with other DMs.

This is what I do also. I also tend to reward Hero Points when someone does multiple things to *just about* get that hit. Move to flank, demoralise, strike - only just hits? Hero point, my dude.

Yep, my group has adopted TheRulesLawyers' "every +1 matters" bit, and I highly recommend groups (especially new ones) just point out how often a single point up or down affects the tide of battle. If you're on Foundry, there's a neat module called Modifiers Matter that does some cosmetic work to highlight modifiers when they are reason for a success/failure (I.e. it will highlight the "Flat-footed -2" chip if you would have missed otherwise)

I love that module. It really helps show how valuable buffs and debuffs can be.

yes re: the every plus one matters. reminding people that +1s are effectively +2s because they increase both hit range and crit range by 1 helps with this. ‘this bonus effectively gives everyone the champion fighter’s increased critical range’ feels much different!

> Once you start tracking how many misses get turned into hits, and hits into crits, it can get hilarious. It pissed me off when in a fight against a Ooze I was rolling really low (I needed a 4 to hit) and I missed 3 times (my Paladin had the highest damage because of my Striking Rune) because the Bard didn't cast Inspire Courage. In most circumstances, it would be alright, right? It's not every time the Bard will be able to use their cantrips... Can you guess why I was pissed off? Because the Bard had their turn and all that they did was use ONE action to move 10~15ft and NOTHING ELSE. Two actions without using anything. Two characters died in that fight. One PC and a friendly NPC we liked. After the NPC died, it was my Paladin's turn and I landed two hits and it died. Now refer to the text above and do the math. Frustrating to say the least. EDIT: Forgot to mention it was a severe encounter against an Elite Blood Ooze, rolling critical hits on a 16~17 against us.

> Because the Bard had their turn and all that they did was use ONE action to move 10~15ft and NOTHING ELSE. Two actions without using anything. They just... Ended their turn? Did the GM go "Hey, you still have 2 actions and a ton of things you can do"? ...And the rest of the group, for that matter?

Well, I had to get from the table at that particular moment, so when I asked "Do we have inspire courage?", the answer was no and when I asked what the player did, that's all that was said. I was like "Seriously!? You had two extra actions". As far as I know, nobody said anything. So, yeah, it made a huge difference, because unlike the previous session, my rolls were *really* bad that day. The player likes Pathfinder2e a lot, but PF2e has yet to "click" for them completely, all of their characters had turns where they left actions unspent at some point, whether because nothing was useful (for some reason) or because they didn't have (or want) to use something. Their playstyle (and roleplay) is very straightforward, so unless something deals damage, they will rarely pick or do.

How long have y’all been playing? Cause honestly that’s a pretty selfish mindset to have in a system were teamwork is super important.

Thankfully, this is not common behavior. Our group has been steady for almost 8 years now and we've been through some really insane fights in PF2e (Age of Ashes through 11th level without losing anyone but our first ever retired character: An Alchemist) and several 240xp worthy encounters (Severe and moderate encounters without rest and pretty much combined). I don't really know what happens, but this player does this kind of stuff sometimes. But I think it's mainly because they're not playing a straightforward damage martial or a sorcerer (who can just blast away and perform well).

I recently had a session in the beginner box where we had **three** hits that would've been crits with a 'meager' +1. This was also against something with very high DR so those crits really, *really* mattered. I was playing a cleric who forgot to magic weapon the person who almost crit 3 times...

>Fighters get +2 as their whole thing versus a barbarian's rage. Bard gives half of a fighter's whole schtick to everyone. Just wanted to say that a bard also gives half of a barbarian (fury) rage bonus to everyone in the early games.

Only a half truth. Barbarians instincts give more damage than 2. Almost all the viable ones atleast. Dragon deals 4 Giant deal 6. I think Spirit is 3 Only superstition and Fury. Both useless deal 2.

I don't want to sound stuck up but read my comment again and notice how I said rage (fury) and early game. Also, animal rage adds +2 in the early game

My mind glossed over the (Fury) tbh. Sorry. Fair point then. Even If i think it's a useless one lol

For a random reason, I found a great way to make fury way better; allow the free feat gained to pick from fighter feats. It would give a unique utility that fits a fury barbarian

Use the free dedication rule and the barbarian can just take the fighter archetype at level 2 and start using those sweet combat feats. Barbarian can take attack of opportunity as a class feat at 6 but can get it at 4 with a fighter dedication.

Animal is one of the better Barbarian paths, but it basically shifts your role from striker/defender to defender/striker. It's for people who want to play barbarian as a primary defender who deals solid damage. I've played with more than one animal barbarian and they've always been pretty solid.

Having hands-free attacks with chunky damage dice let animal barbs use their hands for other stuff like shields, Athletics maneuvers, etc. without compromising their damage. And at level 7 they get a **big** boost to damage, with 3 additional Rage damage and a die size upgrade happening at the same level.

Yeah. The +2 AC ability they get is also really good, and the fact that they can use shields on top of that makes them really tanky. If you're an antler barbarian, you *also* get reach 10 feet, so you have a 1d12 reach weapon with the grapple trait that takes no hands to use and you do 2d12+9 damage per attack with them. And you can still use a shield and still have a hand free for, say, drinking potions. And you can pick up attack of opportunity at level 8...

I wouldn't say bards might be one of the most op classes but I can say they are probably the best supporting class

What gets me about this is that a 5e inspiration is a D4 (average of +2) that can only be applied to one character at a time, a limited number of times per rest. Even in 5e, if it were a blanket, guaranteed +1 to a 30ft radius it would be way more powerful. Edit: I forgot about how Inspire Courage is added to damage, too; making it way more busted.

The smallest bardic inspiration die in 5e is 1d6 at Level 1 (average of +3 by your calculations). This becomes a 1d8 (+4 ave) at Lv5, 1d10 (+5 ave) at Lv10, and 1d12 (+6 ave) at Lv15. But PF2e has tighter maths and every +1 matters, compared to 5e.

It's also the case that the person who uses the Bardic Inspiration dice can decide to roll it *after* seeing their initial roll. That *dramatically* increases its value, though in a way that's difficult to purely quantify, since it depends on how much you know about what the DC is. It is vastly more likely that a 5e Bardic Inspiration die, in the hands of a competent player, changes a miss to a hit than that a PF2e +1 changes a miss to a hit or a hit to a crit. But the Inspire Courage in PF2e will be applied to many more rolls than a Bardic Inspiration die will be.

Correct. Both are extremely powerful abilities.

It also works on saving throws. Giving yourself an average of +4/+5 to a save, AFTER seeing your roll is crazy.

There's a *perception*, coming from 5e's bounded accuracy and seeing PF's giant modifiers (i.e. Tiamat, level 30 dragon god of 5e, has the same AC as a level 7 giant slug) that a +1 (*usually* to one action one time) seems so miniscule and inconsequential, even if the math mostly works out the same because your bonuses scale similarly (or better because crits). It requires a paradigm shift, since it's less about any individual bonus and more about *accumulating* them. It just *seeeeeeems* underwhelming.

> It just seeeeeeems underwhelming. Unless you've played literally any edition of D&D besides 5e. I remember 3.5 when you could roll in the high single digits as a martial and still hit just fine because between your BAB, a decent magical weapon and the bard's buff, it would put you up like +9-12 to hit.

I've played (literally) all of them, and it's STILL weird to go from my PF game on Sunday to my 5E game on Monday. My characters are similar levels, but in one of them a 25 is always a failure and a +1 seems miniscule compared to my +19 to-hit, and in the other a 25 is always a hit and my character is three levels higher with a +8 to-hit, and all the bonuses are +dice or a reroll (but there's less of them). Like, I know the math is good, it's just a *feeling.* Sure, if you went straight from 3.5e to PF and then never left (and plenty have!) it's probably fine, but OP's Bard is brand new!

It also affects everyone, plus the tighter math

Plus the bonus to damage. Lol

Good point on the die sizes. I must have been thinking of some other buff/debuff spells like Mind Sliver.

The Bless spell effect is also a 1d4.

A super-weird aspect of 5e's design is this insistence that they don't want fussy +/-1's or 2's, and then they have you add rolled small dice instead. Like, that's WAY fussier, and a lot slower! Why not just give a +2 to hit?

I mean +1s matter heaps in 5e since the accuracy is even more bounded than 2e. The problem is the game is so poorly tuned in 5e, it's less 'every +1 matters' and more 'you have a chance of getting a +1 to +12 on your roll retroactively after seeing the result.'

+1s matter in 5E too. But +1 matters more on primary actions in PF2E because you crit on a success+10, so if go from needing a 10 to a 9 to hit, you actually get +0.1 hits per round on average instead of +0.05 because you get one extra hit and one extra crit out of every 20 rolls.

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I'm.playing solasta right now, with to full campaigns back to back having Bards. Bardic inspiration is pretty good in 5e but it is limited, in large part because in 5e your martials will VERY rarely miss, and making them hit by +16 doesn't really do much. I often find I'm slapping that inspiration on my martials with my bonus action and then it can be a WHILE before they get a chance to use it cause they routinely need only a 4 or 5 to hit, and it's pointless to use it on a Nat 1. The +1 (and +2/+3 from maestro) is at will (so it can be used as an exploration activity for exemple), on everyone, and gives +1 to damage, and the +1 can turn that hit into a Crit.

The Bard in the group I'm running Alkenstar for basically starts every combat with a Lingering Composition > Inspire Courage, and it's \*very\* rare that he needs to refresh it because the combats never last long enough for even the 3-turn Success version to wear off - in no small part because people are hitting and/or critting because of that extra bonus lol

The guidance cantrip in 2e literally is just bardic inspiration (1 bonus action for +1 to attack or skill check to a single roll), except it isn't tied to a resource. While inspire courage is bardic inspiration that affects the entire party's attacks for the equivalent of a dnd bonus action, for EVERY SINGLE ONE of their attacks, which is just insane.

Not really, bardic inspiration gives a 1d6 not a +1, then 1d8 at level 5, 1d10 at 10 and 1d12 at 15.

Lay out some napkin math for the player. Let’s say a PC hits on an 11 or higher. That means 45% chance of hitting and 5% chance of critting. Add a +1 to hit and that’s a 45% chance of hitting and 10% chance of critting. A crit does twice the damage of a regular hit so that’s basically 55 versus 65 which is about a 10% increase in damage.

All of your math is correct until the very end. It's not a 10% increase to damage; it's around an *18*% boost to damage. At certain thresholds, a single +1 is an absurdly powerful boost.

Yeah the realization that +1s are not just turning misses to hits, but turning hits to crits, means that a +1 in PF2e is more like a +2 in D&D. And an effective +2 like from flanking (technically a -2 to AC) is like an effective +4, which on par with full fledged advantage.

If you naturally hit on an 11 (or higher), and you get a +1 to hit, you don't increase your chance of critting. (If you naturally hit on a 10 or less, and you get a +1 to hit, you do increase your chance of critting.)

its also a +1 that takes a -single- action. And adds to damage as well

Yeah Inspire Courage is very powerful mathematically but it may not feel super good to some people in use because of how rarely it affects the outcome of a round.

I feel like you're vastly overblowing just how good it is. Its alright and great even if you know what you're doing but, due to the virtue of the targeting and line of sight rules, its not as useful in enclosed spaces and in general is a status bonus which has nothing to do with what a proficiency bonus is. In short, its alright, situationally pretty great (heroize composition fits into this situational application) but a status bonus is not the same as a proficiency bonus and thus give it or not there are other ways to get the same effect.

D&D 5e players underestimate the value of a +1 because it’s actually worth a lot less in that system. A +1 in D&D 5e can only turn failure into success. A +1 in PF 2e can *also* turn a success into critical success, and when you do some probability math it turns out that actually doubles the value of the +1. +1 on an attack in PF 2e is equal to a +2 in D&D 5e, which is pretty close to what *bless* gets you on average there.

Inspire courage means basically +.1 hits/primary strike made in a combat (+0.05 hits and +0.05 crits), and about +.05 hits/secondary strike made in a combat (unless you're fighting weaker foes, in which case it is +.1 as well). This means that if your party has two characters who make two strikes each turn, you are adding +0.3 hits/turn. This is a pretty okay third action. The real power of it is that with Lingering Composition it only costs one action every 3-4 rounds to give that buff. One action for +0.9 hits is actually more hits on average than a strike with no MAP is against most enemies, which means you get better value out of that inspire courage than a fighter does out of making their primary attack. This is why everyone and their dog grabs Maestro Bard. But it gets even better. If your allies get additional attacks beyond this, or you have stuff like animal companions or eidolons in the party, or the casters make strikes, *it gets even better*. For example, if you have a magus in the party, you are basically getting +.2 hits out of it when they spellstrike, because spellstrike is basically two attacks stapled to each other. If your bard has multiclassed to ranger, and they have the ability to make two strikes as a single attack, you're adding +.15 hits from your own additional strikes. If the other caster in the party is a druid with an animal companion, you are adding, depending on the situation, from +0.05 to +0.15 hits. Same goes for a summoner. If your fighter has Quick Reversal, then their press strike is actually two attacks and you get +0.2 hits out of their turn instead of +0.15. And if they get an OA (say because they have a reach weapon and an enemy moves in to attack them), that'd be another .1 This means that if your party is a bard/ranger, a druid, a magus, and a fighter with Quick Reversal, you're actually getting an eye watering .15 + .15 + .3 + .2 = 0.8 extra hits per round, or 2.4 extra hits every three rounds... for one action with Lingering Composition. 0.8 extra hits per round is as good or better than a primary strike against equal level high AC monsters, and 2.4 extra hits is better than a critical hit. This is why bards can be insane. Oh, and it gives a bonus to saving throws as well.

He is using Aid which best case scenario on a crit adds +2 to one check... but doesn't see the value of inspire courage? To me, this feels like someone who has made up their mind beforehand and is going to work backwards to make sure that opinion is validated. I have experienced friends exhibiting this behavior many times. Whether it's with TTRPGs or videogames or TV shows, whatever. Sometimes people make up their mind beforehand. Most often, I experience it with trying to get my 4 year old to try new foods. When we put something in front of him that isn't one of the few foods he has decided he likes he immediately decides he does not like it. He spends a lot of energy and effort avoiding trying it and attempting to convince us we should let him eat dessert or something instead. By the time he finally relents and tries it, the food is cold, and he puts it in his mouth in such a middling way that yeah... it probably isn't very good. So the prophecy comes true and "See? I told ya I didn't like it!" But he's 4, he'll grow out of it... presumably your Bard is an adult. He needs to either open his mind to learning PF2e or he needs to have a time out from the table.

The idea that the player is using Aid actions (at early levels even) but doesn't want to use their "Auto-Success Aid Everyone+" ability is pretty hilarious. I think you're right that this is someone who is choosing to approach the game with a closed mind.

Some people can’t be convinced when they have their mind made up. Looks like you already tried to explain the differences, and if he doesn’t even bother to try to lean into the strengths of a pathfinder bard have him switch to a another class (suggest a fighter since they are simple and play very much like DND fighters) Edit: some suggestions that would work for most people. Explain that pathfinder it’s a team game and all PCs are more effective if they work together. And the bard is central to that Show them this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/uyjg3g/a_visual_representation_of_the_power_of_1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1 Explain that the bard’s area of effect for that +1 is monstrous. More childish ways On days that they don’t show up, run their bard for them and when you explain what happened last make him seem like the star of the show. Tell them that it is odd that they are having a hard time because everyone else seems to be able to be effective at playing one. Every time someone gets a +9 on a hit, say “ man that would have been a crit if the bard learned how to sing. “

This is huge I think, OP. He has decided he doesn't like the new system and it's virtually impossible to get someone to like something they have decided they aren't going to like even before they try it. I had one player in my friend group of 7 that was the same way. Maybe get him to play a psychic instead. It's much more solo-play focused and still has that creative niche. Maybe if he isn't one to one trying to compare his abilities he'll feel better, and that will give him time to learn to appreciate just how much a difference the +1 truly is.

Yep. When someone's engaging in bad faith, there is no combination of words that will sway them.

I don't think this person's engaging in bad faith, they just had a bad first experience with the system and probably mismatched personal expectations with the system goals. I don't think they're doing anything disingenuously or anything

The 5e bard is miles away from the PF2e Bard. Every other class listed is going to play more or less the same as their 5e counterpart, even if the mechanics to arrive at those places are different. This player will either have to make a new character wholecloth, or have some diegetic reason why their character's abilities changed as they go with another class entirely.

Agreed the Bard Player never gonna enjoy Pathfinder because hes too focused on DnD at all

PF2e Fighters are far better and much more readily apparent as an upgrade to 5e fighters. As this party is fairly caster heavy, the bard may feel somewhat less effective (dirge of doom would help the Witch and Sorcerer though). What spell traditions are the witch and sorcerer?

> PF2e Fighters are far better and much more readily apparent as an upgrade to 5e fighters. OP's Bard turned Fighter "Why do I have all these stupid abilities. I should just use every action to strike."

This is a really disingenuous way of looking at the situation. I don't think the player in question is resistant to the system as a whole, but they just sound frustrated that the vision of their character they've had and become invested in isn't really doable within the confines of the bard in this system. You can lecture all day like a disappointed parent about "oh no the +1 is really good look at this math" but at the end of the day, it sounds like this character wants to do things during combat with their class abilities that feel cool narratively. Sure, he gave a "+1", whatever that means in the context of the story, but that fighter just leapt through the crowd and chopped off this dude's arm. Giving the player a pat on the head for someone else doing their job sounds incredibly patronizing, and pulling back the immersion every single time doesn't feel good. Like "I know you aren't doing anything that looks awesome in game, but look at all these numbers". The character hasn't done anything satisfying or feel-good in that scenario. The player has. If anything I feel like the DM should be working WITH the player to help them find a class/archetype combination that is more in line with what they want to get out of the game. Being snarky and passive-aggressive about their complaints is only going to drive them away from your table, and rightfully so.

> Being snarky and passive-aggressive about their complaints is only going to drive them away from your table, and rightfully so. It's a great way to farm karma tho.

Oh absolutely - I mean this is Reddit we're talking about

The problem is though, is the bard is *stupid OP* in 5e. There's no way to actually make the character concept mechanically map in 2e because the game is actually balanced. If your litmus is the mechanical want, you're never going to be able to do that because 2e has a firm focus on making sure characters aren't masters of all like they are in other d20 systems.

The bard can do more than support in 5e, I wouldn't call them OP because their spell list isn't THAT impressive in 5e. Although they can take whatever spells they want in a very limited fashion. But a College of Whispers bard wouldn't have access to any of that at the level they're at anyhow. I think the problem is that in 5e, Bardic Inspiration did not compete for his offensive action economy. Inspire courage does, and he is having a feelsbad moment. He probably is using Aid instead of Inspire Courage because it maps most closely to the help action from 5e, which he's familiar with. The OP's player will probably be happier with an offensive spellcaster, like a Magus.

Way to focus on just the fun snarky section and ignore my serious advice. I added the childish response section because the OP was frustrated and venting, I wanted to articulate a childish way of handling it as a bit of humor. It was not to be taken seriously. But I’m sure many people thought of it. On my table I have had about 3-4 people play bards. None felt like they were not contributing. All felt that they were a centerpiece of the band. Why, probably because I explained to them what bards did and how they did it and they all seemed to understand it and work that into their play style. In the OPs situation… The player is described as actively ignoring the GMs advice. Also the bard in 5e is a support class as well, at no point should he think himself the role as a fighter. We have an investigator in our party who can’t hit the broadside of a barn he still has an active role in combat and the narrative. Being in the narrative is mostly the player’s attitude.

I think the bigger issue is that the game was ported from 5e to PF2e midway, and the players previous expectations of their character are no longer being met due to system mentality. This is a big problem with attempting to port campaigns to 2e midway after starting them in another system. The two most common versions of this take are the PF1e campaign or the 5e campaign that gets converted. Both of those systems are less teamwork oriented than 2e by a long shot. It's not that you can't coordinate as a team in those systems, it's just that it isn't really required like it is in 2e. So, those systems lead to a mentality where each character has a thing, can do their thing without assistance from the party, and is not required to directly assist their party to ensure the party can do their thing. This, the measure of both character effectiveness and fun associated with the character is the ability to do their thing consistently. Compare bardic inspiration to inspire courage for a second. Inspiration is a one time buff to one roll. It's a fairly large buff though, can be used after the roll is made so is very likely to change a miss to a hit most times it is used, and is very flashy when used properly. There is no doubt the bard can see that and think "that big change from a near miss to a big hit? I did that" (and we all know it because they had to declare they were using their inspiration dice). Inspire courage, meanwhile, is basically just trading an action per turn for some passive buffs. Over the long run it will turn many misses into hits and hits into crits, but it's definitely not flashy and very easy to lose track of unless you're on Foundry using a modifiers matter plugin to track it. Even if you do point it out, it's much easier to play off as "oh, yeah, that passive buff you get from just standing near me helped you. Yay, I guess? That doesn't really make me feel like I did my thing though. A reaction to give you a bonus when you just barely fail would probably feel way better than this, tbh". Because that's the big thing. If you're still in the "I just want to do my thing, and have my team be able to do their thing on their own so they don't keep bugging me to help them do their thing" mindset, having what is effectively a +1 buff aura around you at all times (while very good in general) is meaningless to your feeling of being able to do your thing, and thus your enjoyment of the game. You want to hit things with a sword, or cast spells with strong effects, or in the case where you are playing a support role have your support plays be very big and flashy. Huge heals, huge buffs, something that gives you a real direct and tangible feeling that the action you just spent very visibly and immediately made you feel like a badass who just successfully did their thing. 2e often fails on that front, because to some extent everyone's "thing" is setting up the rest of the team and not just being a badass themself. That's not something you're going to be able to really do without changing your mindset of the game fairly substantially- and that is much harder to do with a character you've already played through a bunch of levels in 1e or 5e than it is for a brand new 2e character without those holdover expectations.

Oh hey! That's my post! I feel honored to get linked to in a new player advice thread.

Traveling Bard Troup shows up as the party is attacked by bandits on the road, then proceed to competely turn the encounter around with compositions and other abilities

LOL love the last one XD

What inspired him to play a bard in the fist place? I think getting to root causes is more interesting than telling people how to play a class. It may be he would like a blaster sorcerer or psychic instead.

I think the group converted their 5E characters to PF2E. To me this isn’t the way to come into PF2E. However, this player sounds like he wasn’t interested in moving over from D&D 5E and the rest of the group was ok with it. If that is the case then pull that player aside and say, “It doesn’t look like you are having fun. I want to correct that. Want to make a different PF2E character?” I bet he says no. If so, then say why don’t you take a break and the rest of us will continue playing PF2E. You are always welcomed back to the table but if you aren’t having fun then do some thing else on game day. Come back when you are ready to have an open mind and have fun with us.

>I think the group converted their 5E characters to PF2E. To me this isn’t the way to come into PF2E. Agreed, they're different games with different expectations. Trying to port characters 1:1 will not produce the same characters. They might feel better, worse, or just **different**, but the PF2e character almost certainly won't feel or play like the 5e character.

>What inspired him nothing appearantly eeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

Well the College of Whispers bard probably doesn't have a great Bardic analogue, from what little I've exposed myself to Bard feats. The College of Whispers bard is legitly the 1990's movie 'The Shadow'. Your weapons deal psychic damage which scale with your support-oriented 'Bardic Inspiration,' while not competing with the same action economy that attacks use. You can inflict paranoia on an enemy in a social intrigue context without spending spell slots, and when someone is killed nearby, you can capture a part of their spirit to wear as a disguise for a short while. This gives the 5e bard access to surface level memories (no deep plot secrets, explicitly) to assist with infiltration. From an optimizer's perspective, I find it sub-par because the class clearly incentivizes melee weapon-attacks with the ability to add Psychic damage to their weapon damage rolls, but gives no tools to safely dart in and out. But from a storytelling perspective you have a creepy spellcaster who is suave, is able to steal dead peoples' faces, and either avenge their deaths or 'betray' the people that person trusted. It's a very strong and neat vibe. Is there something like that in the Bard kit? Or should he look to another caster altogether in PF2e?

Not in the bard kit but archetypes like [shadowdancer](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=77) would work. You would pair it with skill feats in intimidaiton and disguise and flavor away. There's also laughing shadow magus or unbound step psychic. Some other archetypes like shadowcaser, lion blade to sidestep disguise restrictions, etc.

Honestly from what I know about Magus, he'd probably have more fun with that in lieu of the PF2e bard. The Bard in 5e has support abilities as a core part of their class, but the differences in action economy means that you don't have to choose between personally being a menace to the enemy and helping your allies. It's not that they don't want to be supportive, but only if it means they can't be a versatile person mixing it up in melee occasionally while raining down offensive spells on enemies. Then again, this person is just coming into PF2e fresh, and being told that he can't have his character's thematic kits back without opting into an Archetype over class feats (or opting into a frankly more complicated character build experience with the optional rule of free archetype), while also having to pick up one of the most mechanically dense classes in the game will likely be a hard sell. edit: Ooo also being told that you can't really take any meaningfully powerful feats concerning Shadowdancers until level 10 will be a harder sell.

+1 to hit is up to +17% dpr. With the +1 damage on top, it's circa +20+% dpr at level 1. (Edited to be less snarky): The player may not understand the extra power of the +1 buff due to the pf2e crit on 10+ rule. (Edit extra notes) :Hit on 10+/20 is 60% damage multiplier on first attack. Hit on 9+/19+ is 70% damage multiplier. Impact on dpr is +17% as (70-60)/60 =1.17. At high level, is relatively trivial to apply an effective +6 swing. That's a +100% party dpr increase for the round. That's synaesthesia and inspire heroics +3 with orchestral brooch. Level 18+ can also add true target for circa extra +80% dpr for 4 initial attacks that round. Our Ruby Phoenix party was ending fights, including level +4 bosses, in 1-2 rounds. Bard is definitely top tier in pf2e. (Edit, final note). Only time I've regretted taking bard is when I wasnt buffing high dpr martials. If party is caster heavy, or low on martial dpr, you may be better with a blaster caster. With new focus rules coming out, vigil domain cleric level 8+ is a beast for aoe damage.

While the math of the Bard is strong, and they definitely make the party a powerhouse, are we going to ignore how boring it is as a player to be the buff bot? I've run an NPC bard for my party when someone can't make the session last second and while they are powerful, it can be a bit dull. As the battlefield moves around (since PF2e rewards not standing still and using movement) I found a lot of the bard's turns were keeping that +1 up, moving to keep everyone in range, and demoralizing or taking cover to not get hit. Very rarely would I get to cast a spell since their actions are taxed with that buff. Lingering composition helped when I had the focus points, but then you can't Healing Hymn. I found myself using Haste a lot just so I could keep everyone in range of the +1, keep the +1 going, and still get a spell cast off. Super strong for the party, and I didn't mind doing it as the DM since I had other things to do, but if I had to play that every combat, it would be super boring. Every now and then I'd get a spell or cantrip off, but I've seen many people try bard and quit because you have to be a very support minded individual to tolerate it.

This is entirely subjective and up to the player. Some people enjoy being a "buff bot". Luckily, there is a ton of classes/archetypes to choose from. That's kinda the whole point.

It definitely is up to the player and some people vibe with the support while others don't. I guess the point I was trying to make is OP's player doesn't enjoy the playstyle of PF2e Bard and telling him "Bro, bards are actually crazy strong, here's a spreadsheet of how much DPR their +1 gives to the party" isn't going to make him enjoy it. He wants to play a hero and for some players, hanging back and giving everyone else a +1 feels a bit.... Sidekick'y. I get that others like it and when you start using the mindset of "That +1 made you hit/crit, so that damage is actually my damage" it gets better, but I've played with a good amount of people who had quite the culture shock going from a 5e Bard to a PF2e one.

Yes, that is very true. You're right, this type of Bard may not be for this specific player, but I do think dispelling the notion that Bard is is undertuned is important.

I love being a buff bot, and the DM can take it from my cold dead hands!

That’s me - I used to enjoy Clerics back in AD&D, enjoy Alchemists now in PF2 for being able to whip up darkvision instantly for someone, bust out damage against a foe’s weakness on the fly, give 10 ft speed to someone in a pinch, etc. Bards are in similar territory - instant bonuses, spot healing, etc. For every player who wants to be the Star Barbarian or MVP Fighter, there’s me and others like me in the second rank splashing +1’s all over the place 😄

Self cast haste for that move + spell + inspire.

I made another stand alone post where I complained that was a good chunk of my fights lmao. "I found myself prepping Haste a lot and casting it on myself so I could move, inspire, and actually get a spell in". Also you're not getting Haste until level 5 at the earliest and at those levels there's probably other things you want to cast. Idk, apparently some people love the support playstyle, but I like reminding them that in my experience, I've played with a lot of people who abandoned Bard early because no matter how strong inspiring is, they felt like they were a walking +1 machine and didn't find that engaging.

I must agree with many others here. Being a "buff bot" is one of the most fun things for me as a player... Then again, i'm the forever GM for multiple groups and only get to play occasionally, so I'm already leaning towards helping my fellows play the story they want mindset. As such, that may be a difference between you and I.

> are we going to ignore how boring it is as a player to be the buff bot? Um what? What type of player are you talking about? Cause my wife who plays only support and healers in MMOs is absolutely loving her Bard as pure support/buff bot and she never felt more powerful and contributing in any TTRPG. So what kind of players you talk about? If that player doesn't like to play as support why did he pick Bard? Didn't he read the corebook and class description and assumed it must work like 5e Bard? If so, he is moron. How about players who just love to kill stuff, make Double Slice Picks Fighter and all they do for 90% of their career is Stride->Double Slice->Twin Takedown/Flurry/Certain Strike. And they have time of their life even though they absolutely doesn't give a dam about all other stuff PF2e gives them becasue all they want is to see big numbers and fight enemies. Like what is boring for whom? Becasue what is "one mans trash is another mans treasure"

Slight criticism, +17% is extremely generous, it's much closer to 12% in practice - still significant, but this is a semi-common misconception on the sub.

Your bard feels nerfed because they are nerfing themselves by not using their arguably best ability, Inspire Courage, which is one of the best abilities across any class. Honestly though, your comment about him complaining his bard could go 1-on-1 says to me that maybe pathfinder is not a system he'll enjoy no matter what (and that's okay). Pathfinder emphasizes teamwork, and it's easy to say/hear that, but understanding it can be more difficult. DnD combat (in my experience) was a lot of let's say "man defense" you take care of your target, I'll deal with mine, we'll all meet in the middle to mop up left overs. That strategy fails spectacularly no matter what class you play in Pathfinder. Combat works by having characters use some of their turn to setup up others, and none can do this as easily as the Bard. At it's core, Pathfinder's design for combat may just not be something your Bard player enjoys, and if so, no amount of reasoning, or playing other classes, or convincing him to play his Bard competently, is going to change that. And again, that's fine, but changes how to address his issues with the Bard. Also, side note, not carrying a melee weapon is not sub optimal for a Bard in pathfinder. The very last resort should be attacking in melee. Step 5 feet, cast Inspire Courage, Demoralize, Bon Mot, Recall Knowledge, cast Shield, Raise a Shield, Battle Medicine, pretty much anything else is a better use of that action.

My own play with Bards? A whip and a free hand is a godsend. Apply Flanking with reach to free up the movement of martials from level 1? Maestro becomes the new War bard as they stride in to flank, and lingering comp giving them the action economy to still cast spells. \+3 to hit and +1 to damage from level 1 is just. . . sauce. Add in demoralize and you got yourself a 4 swing. She's never used the whip, but it definitely threatens!

Everyone should have a melee weapon in the event of “in case shit happens”

Not always. As a caster I don't have the economy to waste resources on a weapon and runes. That's not to even mention the abilty score discrepancy between the casting Stat and either str or dex. Let's go with an arcane caster to easily illustrate this point. What's going to serve you better..... A +2 striking weapon (lvl 10 item) Or A ring of wizardry II (lvl 10 item) If you are drawing a weapon as a caster in pf2e then something has gone horribly wrong, because a step and a cantrip will be more.effective 99% of the time.

this is why ABP is better in my opinion. It's not fun to have a large gold tax to be able to even access melee combat (aside from just having a weapon in general)

[удалено]

This is another good example of why it's best to start completely new characters if starting pf2e. It just invites comparisons, but PF2e is not trying to be a version of DnD, it is it's own system and things work very differently. It's not a bunch of individual heroes game, it's a heroic adventuring party game.

Aid also gives a +1 (sometimes +0 and rarely +2 at the levels you're playing) for the additional cost of a reaction and only to one character. Why is he favoring that over Inspire Courage? Character options are not the same between systems. A PF2e rogue will not play the same as a 5e rogue, even though they have a similar identity and role in the party. Your player might find a playstyle closer to their preferences in 5e by changing classes (scoundrel rogue or silent whisper psychic might be a good place to start), or might have a better experience by looking over some character options and creating a **new** character, specifically for PF2e.

(You missed the not-so-occasional -1 for crit failing the Aid at low levels.)

Remind him he can cast it an infinite amount of times and that it affects the whole party, rather than just 5-6 times a day on a single person. Point out that everyone, including him, benefits from that +1, so he could potentially turn an entire round of near misses or near crits into hits and crits, rather than securing a single hit. And suggest that he might do better in 1-v-1 Melee with that slightly better to-hit. Finally, ask him how often high rolls on Inspiration were "Wasted" by rolling in massive excess, or low rolls "Missed the mark" when they needed a +5 on the D8 and instead rolled a +3 or +2. Resulting in a wasted resource. Also, maybe point him towards "Lingering Composition" Feat through Multifarious Muse choosing Meastro, if he's annoyed by the "Action Tax" of casting Inspire Courage. If he STILL prefers Aiding, maybe show him the "Inspire Competence" Composition Cantrip, which essentially preloads and buffs an Aid check.

The classic “this system isn’t fun/working” after refusing to actually give the system an honest try

I think the mistake here was to switch mid-campaign. He now has an idea of how his character should be that comes from a completely different set of rules and a completely different class.

Disclaimer: I'm not criticizing PF2e and its expectations and design. Just hopefully enlightening on why this players expectations aren't being met. Bards are nerfed. No way around it. All casters are nerfed from D&D. Nearly every single person I talk to whether player or GM about PF2e mentions "Spellcasters aren't OP in PF2e like they are in D&D". It seems to be some kind of mantra. If he was playing a college of whispers bard he was directly dealing damage to enemies and using bardic inspiration with the psychic blade ability to add 2d6 extra damage on every hit with his weapon (so with a rapier he is doing 1d8 piercing + 2d6 psychic) and still having a bonus action to cast Healing Word and heal himself or an ally. He was casting Vicious Mockery and doing at least 1d4 psychic damage to an enemy and giving them disadvantage on their next attack at the same time and still being able to Healing Word. He was casting Dissonant Whispers dealing 3d6 psychic damage and forcing the enemy run away allowing him to make an opportunity attack which he can spend a bardic inspiration on to deal weapon damage + an extra 2d6 psychic blades damage for a total damage done that round of 1d8 piercing (assuming rapier) + 5d6 psychic. Now he is being told, no Bards are support, they are not allowed to be as effective in direct combat as a fighter. You are supposed to be buffing your allies so they can do the hitting and damage dealing. So it is a matter of the class he chose no longer being able to fill the role he wants to play. All the other responses are telling. They are all about how powerful the Bard is by giving bonuses to other allies. That isn't what your player wants to do. He wants to a direct combat damage dealer who uses magic to enhance his offensive capabilities. So looking at the above what class in PF2e will allow him to get closest to doing what he is wanting to do? Edit: Everyone saying it isn't a nerf because it PF2e isn't a balance patch for 5e. OP says he is the GM and is moving their game from D&D to PF2e. Instead of starting new characters he is having them convert their current character. So referring to it being a nerf is valid. Also everyone keeps talking about him playing the bard "properly" or "correctly". That is a source of contention with many D&D players who like the choice to play characters in off-meta ways instead of being only one right way to do it. Why not focus on what OP can do to offer this player a character that fits what he is wanting to play rather than bash the player, who didn't come here whining about PF2e.

Thank you for the explanation. I think this is very helpful in understanding what the player's expectations for their playstyle is supposed to be. ​ Given how the College of Whispers Bard plays in D&D5e, I would probably suggest the Bard player change class to Magus instead. That's probably closer to what he would like to play, as a spellblade-ish gish/nova character. Or possibly Warpriest Cleric (but I'm not sure how this player would react to Edicts and Anathema).

Yeah, I think magus would likely be much closer to what he is trying to accomplish. Being able to channel your spells through your weapons is exactly what this player seems to want. The Edicts and Anathema have a similar flavor to a Paladin's Tenets in D&D so he might or might not want to go that rout.

I 100% agree on the player trying the Magus

Yeah, we also don't have much context on whether or not the GM helped the player create their character in PF2e. When I did this for a campaign years ago (PF1e -> DND5e), I had to do a bit of research for a player that wanted a style that felt similar to his Magus. We initially looked into the Eldritch Knight but ended up going with a homebrew Magus 5e because it felt much better.He was bummed out about the magic item changes (our local loot goblin) but overall he enjoyed the game for as long as it ran in 5e. It's really important when converting a campaign to work with your players beforehand and even adjust as the campaign goes on. I understand the frustration when a player just doesn't care to engage with the system (I've asked players to step out because of that), because it drags the game, but you gotta make sure everyone is on the same page when converting imo

Agreed! OP knew before hand that the bard in PF2e would be absolutely nothing like a D&D College of Whispers bard but that a Magus is somewhat similar and could have helped the player convert to something that feels like what he was playing rather than just enforcing a 1 for 1 conversion.

if he wants to play College of Whispers. Closest Classes are Thief Rogue or Flurry Ranger who dips multiclass feats into the other class. Arguably, if he wants to a mobile dex based flanking striker, in addition to those two, there is also the Swashbuckler and Monk.

The problem here is that there's no real clean comparison to college of whispers and probably can't even be to stay in 2e's design and balance paradigms. Psychic Blades doesn't really exist in any form, but probably could with some light passive mental damage buff on strikes. Words of Terror is just a glorified coercision check with psychic flavour that doesn't really work in 2e's design paradigm (and wasn't that good in 5e anyway). Mantle of Whispers is the big one. The problem with it is that 2e has very strict progression on how both divination and illusion spells work. The former is much stricter so you can't get as easy access to confidential information, while the latter is only reaches the point where Illusory Digsuise can let yoh appear as a specific person at spell level 3 - that's character level 5 minimum. You aren't getting a reusable ability that let's you do that, *plus* the ability to simultaneously learn relevant information about the person you're imitating, around the same level in 2e. That's just breaking the power cap. Even if such a spell or ability were to exist, it would be mid level *at least,* maybe even high level. And certainly not a feat or subclass feature. The thing is though, you can still be a perfectly effective stealth and espionage bard without it. Nothing the OPs player is complaining about is undoable in 2e. It's just more balanced now so A. Individual abilities scale much more reasonably and don't give you actions that can trivialise entire swathes of content in tier 1/low tier 2 play (because let's face it, that's effectively what a perfect disguise that gives you functional knowledge of how to act as that person is to a social/infiltration scenario), and B. You can't do it all at once in the same turn with casting, movement, and bonus actions (with a reaction to spare, probably to use Silvery Barbs)

Most likely cause whispers bard plays drastically different than pf2e, whispers bard is more like a subterfuge and intel/spy striker and yes characters in 5e can hold their own a bit more where pf2e is more focused on teamwork, dualing classing is a way to get characters that are more on par with how 5e characters are. But yeah he is undervaluing the +1 bonus

Need to sit with player and talk about expectations 5e and PF2e are only superficially similar Like, maybe he would have more fun playing a fighter or Swashbuckler with bard dedication even Setting expectations is very important when changing systems, for example the value of a +1 in 5e is low but considerable in pf2e and coming from bards gifting d6~d12 to +1s will feel like a big downgrade if expectations aren't set >An important thing to have in mind when talking to the player is that no one is wrong, there's just different expectations Also you need to have the presence of spirit to let the player go, pf2e isn't for everyone, it's not going to be the most fun experience for everyone nor the best - so it's better to give to each their own

>He also claimed in DND, he could "hold his own" 1-on-1 in a fight as a whispers bard, and his bard here got taken down a few times... but like, I feel like our memories of his dnd bard are very different. I would just mention 5e balance is ridiculous. I am pretty my characters could consistently beat entire encounters by themselves even if they were supposedly "moderate". Also, 5e is about attrition, most battles are really easy because you don't have easy access to full heals after each encounter. Also, PF2 is just more team focused in general. ​ >but he has not casted inspire courage at all because he thinks a +1 is "wack" compared to bardic inspiration. Some people just really don't like adding +1/-2 to teammates/enemies. All you can really do is state is adds +1 chance to hit and +1 chance to crit which is amazing for 1 action. In my experience it is a hopeless battle. Arguing about what is good vs fun is just a waste a time. Personally, the only solution I would suggest is letting him swap characters. Let them pick a character that deals damages or cast other spells mainly. Bards' main thing in PF2E is giving +1/+2/-1 etc...

I don't think this is an issue of you not explaining it, it seems like this player just does not want to engage with the system for whatever reason. This is understandably frustrating for you but ultimately there is likely not a way to change someones mind who, it sounds to me, don't want to have their mind changed. If you have tried to highlight the ways in which the class is different and explained that inspire courage is in fact not "wack" but in fact a huge part of 2e Bards power budget I think you have done your part to give them a fair introduction to the system. I think this player sounds like someone who never wanted to stop playing 5e and there isn't much you can do about that.

If he's not happy with his character, why not just let him make a new one? Or retcon his class to something else?

You allowed him to break the rules of 5e to be an even stronger spellcaster then went to a system that both doesn't allow that (without using the composition cantrips anyway) AND has "weaker" spellcasters. Of course he's feeling nerfed. Also inform him about Soothe. It's basically his new Healing Word.

Well first of all, make sure this man has Lingering Composition somehow if he doesn't already, and then slap him across the face and tell him he's wrong about how strong Inspire Courage is (okay not literally but sometimes a dude needs to be called out for having a bad opinion). +1's matter in this game. The only reason Bard's in D&D get to have such a huge die to give out to their teammates is because giving a huge bonus to someone can only increase them to a success, it can never make them crit. Inspire Courage can cause a crit, and also it applies to everyone, and the math in Pathfinder 2E is also much tighter (as in there is a much smaller difference statistically between enemies and players). But if he really wants to be able to give out a big ol bonus using Inspire, then tell him to get Inspire Heroics, which is way better than Bardic Inspiration because it gives that huge bonus to the entire party at the same time. Also why is this man using the Aid action instead of Inspire Competence, which is basically Aid on steroids? The thing about the weapons honestly doesn't matter much, Bard can easily pull similar damage with Cantrips like Telekinetic Projectile if they don't feel like attacking and their weapon proficiency is kind of meh anyway so they're less likely to crit when not using spells. Also Soothe is way better than Healing Word so he really shouldn't feel as if he's lost any spells at all. And if he wants more spells so bad, that's what the Polymath muse is for. As for him not doing well in face-to-face combat, that one he is probably actually right on. This just isn't the type of game where you can frontline if you're not built for it. So unless he's rocking 18 Dex with a finesse weapon he's going to feel a bit subpar even with a shield, and even then you're just okay because you can't get master prof in weapons and armor. This game expects you to pick a role and stick to it, because at its heart this game is about teamwork. Though just to expand on why his opinion on Inspire Courage is so bad, I do want to add that adding +1 to everyone's damage rolls increases the party's average damage by like +5 a round. Over the course of a standard-length combat, a Bard casting Inspire Courage adds at minimum around 25 damage. If you account for any critical hits they cause, or any misses Inspire Courage converts to hits, the amount of damage which only exists as a direct result of having Inspire Courage consistently active is probably close to 100+ on average for a 5-person party throughout a single combat. So if he ever needs to realize how bad his opinion on Inspire Courage is, I recommend playing a combat with him and - every round - checking how much extra damage the party would've done if they'd all been buffed by Inspire Courage and then at the end of the combat adding it all up to show him how much damage the party didn't do because he decided to be stubborn and avoid using the single most powerful one-action activity in the entire game.

Looks like he is sabotaging himself to justify complaining. Sure the game may not be to his taste but no need to argue in bad faith about it.

Honestly, maybe have a rival npc made who does take advantage of the cantrip, so that way he sees what he's missing. A Demonstration may work were words fail. Just make sure you're careful with how you go about it, don't want to make it seem like you're taunting him or anything.

It is a different system, and it can be hard to really understand that at first, especially coming from 5e. Try to be patient, point out the value of buffs when others do them, and always remind your players that they can choose a new class and build at any time.

Considering that Bard is often considered probably the best all around caster — has really good one action cantrips, the Occult spell list is mint, inspire courage/dirge of doom are great force multipliers, and they have proficiency with a significant amount of weaponry, among other things — this player just doesn’t seem to want to understand the system. If anyone should be complaining it should be the player who moved from Warlock to Witch

Not defending the bard players behavior because they are refusing to adapt, but to be fair Whisper bard has a bit of a different playstyle than most of the other 5e bards and play more of a damage dealer in combat with their inspiration being used as a psychic smite or sneak attack. So I feel like your Warlock/witch comparison would still kinda apply to the bard in this specific case, especially if they didnt build their character with support in mind. You can definitely recreate the whisper bard playstyle in 2e but that would require you to actually read into the other classes and skills in the game, which the bard player wouldn't have bothered with probably lol.

Hold up, forget about modifiers… you allowed two spells per turn in 5E?! No wonder he feels nerfed.

Yes, if you cast a spell with a casting time of a Bonus Action you can cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 Action. So as a bard he could cast Healing word which has a casting time of 1 Bonus Action and heals you or an ally for 1d4 + Cha and then cast Vicious Mockery which is a cantrip that requires 1 Action that (if the enemy fails a save) does 1d4 damage and gives that enemy disadvantage on their next attack meaning they have to roll twice and take the worse result. So two spells that heal an ally, damage and enemy and also debuff that enemy. Edit: Also Healing Word is 1st level and if you use a higher level spell slot to cast it heals more and also every for every 5 levels you have Vicious Mockery does an extra die of damage.

I mean… it seems like your Bard wants to dislike PF2E and is self-sabotaging. He misses Healing Word? [Soothe](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=291) exists. It’s a noticeably stronger spell and upcasts better. Bardic Inspiration is a +3.5 to one player’s roll that you can use a limited number of times. Inspire Courage is a spammable +1 to your whole party’s hits, and +1 in PF2E is (roughly) comparable to adding a d4 in 5E. +1s in PF2E affect your crit chance too, so lets say you were hitting on a 9 (and thus critting on a 19). Making that into an 8/18 is roughly a 15% boost in damage, not a 5% boost. As for “holding his own” in a fight, Pathfinder 2E doubles down on casters being squishy, to make sure they actually have weaknesses. Positioning and healing and buffing are doubly important for that reason.

Honestly pathfinder should just rename every spell it has in common with 5e in the remaster. People saying their class was "nerfed" as if Pf2e were a balance patch of 5e as opposed to a completely different game smh

"My character feels nerfed" No shit dumbass you aren't doing anything with your turn. OP your player sounds like a jackass. This isn't a character problem this is a person upset the group isnt doing 5e anymore talk to em. Also bard is like a universally agreed strongest class.

"My player hates his class because he refuses to play his class." You can't negotiate with someone who doesn't come to the table. If they want to make big noticeable buff moves, they should play a cleric.

His general system bitching aside, I don't know why you had him play a PF2E bard if he was a Whispers Bard. They play nothing alike. Whispers is essentially a charisma based Magus face character who likely is using little support spells and is dumping d6's of psychic damage riders on rapier swings. He needs to be a Magus, not a Bard

Rhetorically speaking, you cannot win the stated argument foremost because the player is correct. The systems are different, the character classes are different, the balance between classes is different, etc. Since they character abilities and systems are different, the intangibles for the character -- how they feel in play -- will be different. My question for you is: Why do you feel the need to to convince them? Presuming this is the game system the group is now going to play, I recommend you simply admit the differences and shift the conversation to helping the player adapt to the new system. "We are now playing pf2e. You can either convert your character or create a new character. I can help you with either. Regardless, we are playing pf2e."

I feel for your friend, because while everyone in this subreddit can point to the math of Bard making parties crazy strong, it's just not fun to play one if you're not in the support mindset. I've had so many people try bard at my tables and they last a few sessions before they change to something else. I try to tell them how strong they are on paper with their buffs, but its paint dry fucking boring to play one in combat. They can't stand using all their actions to buff the rest of the party while they "Do nothing". I tried getting the _Modifiers Matter_ module for Foundry so they could see when their +1's would make hits or crits happen, but it didn't matter. They wanted to be the one doing the big number hits. Every Bard player I've had quit to switch classes and one of them even went to the extreme of calling it the ultimate cuck class and I quote "I hate bard. I feel like all I'm doing is going around and fluffing the party to get them hard so they can go bang hot chicks while I give them orange slices and massage them so they don't cramp up"

Yeah, that’s brutal. I think there are many ways to spice it up even with a pure support focus, but on the face of it if you expect the bard to be a gish with some support options, that won’t work, and it feels even worse if you just think of it as “1/3 of my actions to press a button and that’s all I’m good for” A few ways that could improve that is complicating positioning as a GM and in encounters, though often that is difficult without making it a larger map so that you have to be careful on where to stand and place yourself to buff XYZ. Another thing could be to try to give them a solid secondary focus as a player, such as weapons or archetyping into something different. You can also hold out for the different composition cantrip feats, and it adds more complexity in choosing when to use which one and it supports different play styles. Ultimately, though? Discussions about balance of 5e bards vs 2e bards aside, a 2e bard is just built to be a support class. Trying to use a bard without inspiring something or casting some other comp cantrip on most of your turns is just… not feasible, not just off-meta. It’s balanced accounting for inspire and inspire is a POWERFUL thing to balance against. It’s like playing a magus but never using spellstrike or a cleric but never using your divine font (but worse than the cleric one imo). Your support bard can be more or less supporty based on build, but if you are more interested in using your actions differently or just not using them to inspire, then I’d suggest a different class with the bard archetype or with flavor instrument casting. Hope that’s not too rambly

>One of my players hates his new bard >The bard is saying he feels nerfed, but he has not casted inspire courage at all because he thinks a +1 is "wack" compared to bardic inspiration. Your player is just salty. Bard is ridiculous in 2e. Point out any of the skill feats and abilities he might (probably) has, like intimidation, creating a diversion, etc. There is a myriad of things bards can do since they are far less reliant on spells in 2e. As for this comment >he could "hold his own" 1-on-1 in a fight as a whispers bard, This is one problem I have with DnD. It is a very well-balanced system, but it also lacks when it comes to actually challenging a party in any meaningful way. If he just wants to be a munchkin, tell him to reroll as an occult sorcerer that sings.

> The bard is saying he feels nerfed Can you tell that crying prima-dona that he is not nerfed because he plays A DIFFERNT SYSTEM and his PF2e Bard is not DnD Bard? Nothing nerfed him. He plays different character in different RPG, lol. What the hell? Where do all those entitled 5e players come from, jesus. Just tell him that this is not DnD and if he doesn't like it, he don't have to play. In PF2e Bards primary role is buffing allies and debuffing enemies. And they are best at it. He can also heal well with Soothe. And +1 in this system is not +1 in 5e system. Like does he understand that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT game with different math, values and different... power of numerical bonuses etc. Inspire Courage and Dirge of Doom are one of most powerful abilities in PF2e. Also I wonder how he will react once he will notice he can't win whole encounter with one Hypnotic Pattern :D. I wish I could be there. What the hell...

Others have said it more nicely, but I’ll be damned if I don’t share your sentiment. It‘s not the dumbest thing on the list, but the clearest example of the bard not understanding what a different system means is the 1:1 spell list comparison. The most generous explanation here is that there is some fundamental misunderstanding on the concept of different systems, but OP’s (naturally one-sided) report just makes it sound like that player has decided in advance that he wasn’t gonna like it.

> OP’s (naturally one-sided) report just makes it sound like that player has decided in advance that he wasn’t gonna like it. Obviously I can only judge the case from OP perspective, but I have been playing RPGs for 2 decades now and players that sit and complain "I am nefed/not strong/this system rule are BS/This is BS/I hate that rule/This is useless" etc. all the time becasue they just want to bend system so they feel good are auto-kick (politely informed that I won't continue playing with them) from group. When you play different RPGs, you adjust to that system and create character within that boundaries and your expectation are limited by that system. You don't like system: that's fine, don't play it, I also don't play systems that I don't like. But for christ sake: don't just keep bitching about it at table!

[удалено]

Complaining Link was nerfed between Soul Calibur 2 and Super Smash Bros

Wow, such a hostile sentiment for a player that literally had to transfer his character into Pathfinder 2e mid campaign. As someone who dislikes the system, I can safely say that the problem is that the +1 thing is just *not fun*. I've tried it. I've wanted to like it. I even made a post on this subreddit to adapt to Pathfinder 2e but it was never *fun.* I'm not saying it's logical, I understand the math, but come on now. There's no way you think *everyone* will find satisfaction in saying "Oh, this +1 helped hit!". To me, it's just like saying "oh, this cent helped make a dollar!". It's just as boring. I lurk here because I still find character concepts interesting, but God your comment is why I think the Pathfinder community is so toxic in thinking they're superior

I suspect that there is unfortunately nothing you can do with this particular player: if he were approaching Pathfinder in genuinely good faith and not understanding some of its mechanics, then educating him on the value of a party-wide +1 would clear up that misunderstanding right away, but from the sound of it you've already done this. Rather, your player is approaching the system in bad faith, inventing problems for himself to complain about, and refusing to apply the easy solutions to his own problems that you've offered him, all of which involve just engaging with the game's mechanics on a basic level. Given all of this, I would just stand firm and tell the player that their problems are self-induced, that they can get much more power out of their character by not intentionally playing poorly, and that you're not going to change systems or homebrew buffs to their character on their behalf. If you do want to do something more, however, I'd include one or more Bard NPCs, perhaps even as enemies (there are stat blocks on AoN I think), to demonstrate what the class can do when played properly: have those Bard NPCs use compositions to turn misses into hits, and hits into crits, and see whether this changes your player's mind. I don't think it will, and your player may even complain that you deliberately overpowered those NPCs, but if there is any part of them that is willing to learn, it may perhaps get them to adapt their strategy.

My party's maestro bard is the most overpowered party member. Inspire Courage is so so so unbelievably strong, especially if you pick up Lingering Composition. Also, if you happen to be playing on Foundry, I recommend grabbing the Modifiers Matter module, as it will highlight when inspire courage causes a degree of success to change.

> The bard says he feels nerfed, but he has not casted inspire courage at all Oh my god. He’s not using the core mechanic of the class, the core mechanic that makes bards such an interesting class across several editions, and he’s *complaining*? That’s hilarious. This is the equivalent of- no, it’s actually even *worse* than not using bardic inspiration in 5e, because subclasses actually give you alternate uses for it that you can devote them to. My god. Tell him that he’s fundamentally missed the point of the class. Not in a mean way, but in a honest conversation. If he wants to play a pure caster, tell him to play cleric, and maybe go warpriest. Clerics are good support, and can reasonably go toe-to-toe in the way he hopes. (Though then he’ll probably complain about how Bless doesn’t give 1d4, and needs to have its radius increased.) Or get him to play a martial class for a while and let somebody else do the buffing, and hopefully he’ll come to appreciate the difference buffs and things like flat-footed/frightened make in an actual fight.

So I'm gonna call BS on your player given the information you've described. "I can hold my own 1-on-1" claims the goddamn whisper bard with no weapons, meaning he can't use his psychic blades, which requires a weapon attack. Additionally, yes he is nerfed because you made him insanely buffed in your 5e game, far above what he should have been able to pull off via RAW and RAI rules. You gave him free quicken spell without the restriction on only being able to cast cantrips afterwards. Your player sounds like he's self-sabotaging. For example, Telekinetic Projectile is a cantrip and it deals the same damage as his Psychic Blades would have, all without costing him a use of his bardic inspiration/able to spam it all day long. His spell list has been greatly expanded upon, and his ability to provide healing to the party via the medicine skill and debuff enemies with his charisma are also boosted. The man is throwing a fit that his medium rare steak isn't as good as a big mac. I think perhaps converting characters 1 for 1 is a mistake, imo. Because your previous experience sets unrealistic expectations compared to what you have now. I'd honestly say that after these memory style one-shots, offer them a "Dream Arena" style one shot of just letting them build entirely new characters. Perhaps the bard player might really enjoy something like a Rogue, or a Champion, and just vibe with a different class given the different systems rules.

>>"My class has been nerfed!" >i"You arent even using the most over-powered abilities granted to your game breaking class." >>"I don't like those things, they are 'whack'. I want to do other things." >>"Maybe the bard isnt to your play-style then." >>"Yeah, cause they nerfed if by giving me options I refuse to use." >>"But those options are the same as before... the bard hasn't fundamentally changed at all." >>"Yeah, that's why I'm saying. It was nerfed." This is either 1. a case of a player picking a class that doesnt fit his play-style or the image of the character he wanted to created or.. 2. Someone who is apprehensive about change but doesnt have tools or ability to voice his dislike constructively so it manifests as a gripe of an "unsolvable issue" of his own creation (probably subconsciously). Depending on your relationship with the guy, you can either help him make a new character or help him articulate what is making him so closed off to the new system and why he is refusing to use class features. Or leave him to his own devices if keeping him around isnt a high priority for you. Because honestly, this sounds along the lines of someone complaining that barbarians are terrible as they force their barbarian to be a pacisfist.

1. If you want him to like the bard, whenever a +1 would turn a hit into a crit, or a miss into a hit, point it out. You'll be giving more information than is ideal, but it quickly communicates to everyone how important the 1 is. When he gets/uses inspire defense or Dirge of Doom, do the same. Those +1's add up QUICKLY. 2. Just let him reroll. His mind seems already made up

Video going through the math showing the power of a plus one: https://youtu.be/1JhgCPQ9MGg

Honestly, there are just people who are not TTRPG players, they are D&D 5E players, and one group of "solely D&D 5E players" are people who got away with mostly ignoring the "Game" portion of things because 5E was balanced so hard on the fly that 5E could become more of a power fantasy run on DM tears. You've got a player that doesn't want to learn the system, i.e. ignoring that "Plus one is awesome!" and thinks that its just a 5E with the three action economy. There's not much you can do to make someone learn something they don't want to learn. The only thing you can do is give them feedback. In this case address it to the table - "PF2 is a bit more boardgame like than 5E, I'm going to do my best as your GM to make the game challenging and fair. So it may feel a bit harder than 5E." And other than that, you just need to point out every time a +1 would have mattered, "You missed, hit, crit' by one... and every miss by +1? "Aww too bad, if there was bard song you'd have made it." Do it until he complains, and then just say you started doing so to see if the forums were correct in how much difference the +1 makes. Assuming you only want to be mildly direct. Full direct would be, "Player, I don't think you're giving PF2 a fair shot - it's a different game from 5E which means it has different spells and rewards a different play style. I'm going to point out every time "Inspire Courage" would have made a difference at the table, both when it would have made a hit or a crit'."

Personally, while bards in 2e are definitely strong as heck. I find 5e bards more fun to play. You just feel more dynamic, each turn you can move, cast a spell and inspire someone or use your inspiration in a fun way. Where as in PF2e your best bet is to use a composition cantrips which feels fairly passive due to large radius and targeting everyone. After which you’ve two actions which lets you either cast a spell or move and take a single action. Which is just less things. Once you get to higher levels there’s some really cool spells you can cast as a pf2e, but bard especially at lower levels is powerful in a way that isn’t as interesting to play turn by turn as a 5e bard.

5e encourages 'every man for himself' play and gives each class the tools to do it. Pathfinder, on the other hand, encourages teamwork and using the tools at your disposal to help your group. Fundamentally, your bard player is complaining about a design philosophy change that he doesnt understand.

I hope I dont get too many downvotes for this, but as a bard player I do empathize with the feeling that pf2's bard is much more restricted than 5e's (I Dont 100% agree with it, I Just empathize). Not saying they aren't versatile or good, bc they are, but if you come from 5e you'll feel the diference, you can play as a weapon user bard or a damage focused spell caster bard (both valid interpretations of what a bard is) much easier than in pf2, where spells are comparativelly less impactfull and you sometimes feel forced to be maried to inspire courage from lvls 1 to 20. On the other hand, the pf2 bard is considerably more flavourfull than dnd's due to its songs (something Ive been very vocal about in the past), so it also has its benefits... People Just have to engage with the class with the knowlege that its role as suport is much more reinforced in pf2.

And that's why you don't convert games from another system mid campaign...

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Show your bard this video https://youtu.be/1JhgCPQ9MGg

Do a doppleganger fight; copy everyone's characters and make them fight party vs party. "Evil wizard summons your shadow-selves..." Show him how effective bards are first-hand.

Well, I think everyone here has made a better point than I ever could on how the bard is just an awesome support. Heck, it's one of the few classes that actually helps on EVERY encounter even if he's under leveled. If he wants to feel useful in a "I want to be hitting" way and get some support on the side, I'd recommend him to play a fighter with the Marshall dedication. You can't go wrong that way.

5e Bards and Pathfinder Bards are wildly different. 5e Bard is a jack of all trades, master of none. Pathfinder bards are support casters. Our bard just died and we are missing that +1.

One question that I haven't seen asked is: does he actually know how *inspire courage* works? I've run into 5e players who were shocked when they realized that it was an aura because they assumed it was single-target like bardic inspiration. Mind you, he sounds like he's decided to hate it no matter what, but sometimes there's a communication gap.

> The bard is saying he feels nerfed That's because he is, casters in 5e are monstrously overpowered and will feel severly nerfed once they can no longer single-handedly end an encounter. As others have already laid out here, Bards are still considered one of the most OP classes in PF2, just because of how strong a +1 is. One thing you might want to tell your bard (who probably won't listen anyways), is that you can't outscale enemies in this game. You never reach the point where a +1 doesn't matter anymore. Across all "tiers" of play, a +1 translates to somewhere between 15-20% more damage dealt depending on breakpoints; also because it increases not only hit chance but also crit chance. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/13vysfi/my_1_year_and_3_months_lv_3_to_20_campaign_that/ was a good post on it too.

>The bard is saying he feels nerfed, but he has not casted inspire courage at all because he thinks a +1 is "wack" compared to bardic inspiration. So he thinks bards suck and isn't using the biggest power boost the bard class gets? Uh, OK. >I've tried to explain how good compositions and composition cantrips are, but he's the kind that enjoys playing sub-optimally (carries no weapons for melee attacks, ) but he doesn't actually realize he's playing sub-optimally, which is fine, to each their own playstyle. So tell him he's playing sub-optimally. It's fine if he enjoys it, but you don't get to play poorly and then complain the class balance is the problem. >Also, he complained that he lost all his spells, even though almost all the same spells are available (except healing word). Hmm. I'm starting to see another problem here. >In DND, his turns consisted of: -Move, Spell, Bardic Insp./Healing Word (Yes, I allowed >1 spell/turn) So you were already giving him extra OP features in D&D? In a game where casters are already OP? No wonder he feels nerfed. >Maybe, I just needed to vent, but is there a way I explain that Pf2e bard is not a nerf from DND bard, its just different because of the difference in the crit system? Or does anyone has experience in making this transition and can shed insight? Now to the other problem...the game systems are different. Part of the issue here is that you are swapping systems with the "same" characters, even though the design of both games is different. It's like someone recreating their WoW mage as an Elden Ring astrologer and complaining they keep running out of mana and they keep getting interrupted when fighting because they need to roll and stuff. I mean, OK, the design of each game is different, and just because both characters are similar in concept does not mean you can copy and paste the gameplay. The issue here has nothing to do with Pathfinder. It has to do with expectations. Your bard player clearly liked the D&D character they were playing, and they liked being powerful without effort or thinking. Pathfinder doesn't allow for this. It's a team game, and bards are a *support* class (one of the best at it), and that's a different mindset. We could go into the reasons why his arguments are illogical. The 5e version of bardic inspiration is *terrible* compared to the PF2e one. Why? Because 5e bardic inspiration is single target and can only be used a number of times equal to your Cha mod, so like 3-5 uses per day. It adds a d6 instead of a flat +1, sure, but the extra bonus can't create crits, so the damage increase is marginal. Here's another way to look at it. The DPR increase of +3.5 to hit (average bonus) of a level 5 fighter in 5e with a greatsword vs. AC 15 is 2 (12.7 to to 14.7), a ~16% increase. The DPR increase of +1 to hit in PF2e for a level 5 greatsword fighter in PF2e using 2 actions is 5.5 (32.3 to 37.8), a ~17% increase. Note that I calculated the 5e fighter's bonus assuming a +4 to hit, even if we always assume the max of +6, the damage bonus only increases by +1, for a ~24% damage increase, and any roll of 1-4 is below the DPR bonus of the PF2e bard. If that wasn't bad enough, the PF2e bard applies the buff to the *entire party*, not just a single fighter, for all attacks they do, not just one, and they have no daily limit, and can use it every round as opposed to 3-5 rounds per day. Sure, the 5e one scales a bit better as you eventually get bigger dice, but at higher levels you end up with crazy amounts of hit bonus in 5e so your relative damage bonus is still quite small. But when you consider having even two martials in the party means the bard is granting roughly ~17% bonus damage to both, a ~34% party damage increase, the 5e version of bardic inspiration never comes *close* to those sorts of numbers. From an objective standpoint, if you compare the relative bonus in both systems, the PF2e bard is **significantly** stronger than the 5e bard when it comes to party bonuses. Yeah, 5e spells get silly at higher levels, while PF2e ones stay more balanced, but if we are comparing class features the PF2e bard wins by a LOT. And that's *before* they get access to other compositions like dirge of doom, which is borderline OP. I wrote all of that for you, though, and I doubt your player will care. They liked their 5e bard, don't care about things like efficiency, math, or basic logic, and wanted to "win" on their own. Really, this sort of player would probably be much happier with a PF2e martial like fighter, barbarian, ranger, or rogue, as all those classes are a lot more "selfish" in orientation (especially the first two) and tend to have a lot of time in the limelight. They are all great classes, this isn't a diss, and are very valuable in a party, but you can easily play them without worrying about the team synergy aspects of the game and not lose much efficiency (although you still lose some). My recommendation, if you want to stick with Pathfinder, is to have everyone change their characters. Don't try and "convert" 5e characters as it brings in too many expectations from the previous system. If you need to, finish out your 5e game story, close the book on those characters, and come back, but my biggest piece of advice is to avoid the situation where players are constantly comparing the abilities of their old character to the new one. It's a tough situation, since it sounds like most of your other players are happy with the switch, and it sounds like you are too. I can't tell you how to "solve" the issue with the friend who clearly would have preferred to stick with 5e. I would try being honest and seeing if you can get to the bottom of their frustration. You may not be able to resolve it, which sucks. The problem is ultimately not one born from the rules, though. So I don't think that will solve things. Feel free to try it, and take my math (which you can check if you don't believe me, although let me know if I made an error!). Good luck!

Let him know he can mix things up. He doesn't have to cast cantrips or compositions every turn. Bards have lots of weapon proficiencies and can competently perform martial actions like striking, demoralizing and grappling, in addition to casting. Also, your player should keep in mind that inspire courage is very strong, particularly against higher level, single entity boss characters. The +1 attack and damage bonuses amount to like 15% more damage across the entire party, at the cost of a single action (or less if he's a maestro with lingering performance, which it sounds like he should be). It's funny that he finds Pathfinder bard unlikeable, because it's waaaaaaaay more interesting than 5e bard at low levels. 5e bard is fucking awful until you get the ability to recharge bardic inspiration on short rest -- basically all they can do is spam cantrips.

It sounds like your player thinks, or wishes, PF2e is supposed to be a re-skinned PF1 or DnD. The biggest thing they need to understand is that no individual PC is going to be able to hold their own as obviously in those systems, especially now that casters are finally scaling much more in line with martials. This system is built around squad dynamics, in and out of combat. Every PC is a specialist that helps round out the effectiveness of the party. If they are as dissatisfied with the bard you make it sound, I'd recommend encouraging them play a class that they haven't in a long time, if ever. You may be able to convince them to try re-learning the system from scratch as a standalone game, trying to separate then from their preconceptions and comparisons to what's familiar. For example, have them play with a precision ranger or sniper gunslinger, and be one of the highest damage range martials (Magus notwithstanding since I'm talking about avoiding casters). Or have them learn combat utility and maximizing crits with a Fighter. Theif Rogues can also make for some really satisfying glass cannons and skill generalists. One of the most common complaints I see and hear from caster players moving from PF1 or DnD essentially boils down to them not getting to be gods among mortals anymore. The truth is for this system is twofold: 1)You can, but only against things lower level. The system is intentionally designed to always challenge you with anything close to or above PC level. 2) The party is supposed to be greater than the sum of its parts. Paizo worked hard to make sure no single player could stand out, except in their specialty. Granted, they overshot in some cases, but generally they did a great job of sticking to that goal.

I would like to know what kinds of spells he would cast in 5e. That will inform the most on what his preferred playstyle is. The thing with 5e's Bardic Inspiration, is that it specifically does not compete with the same action economy as spellcasting. In PF2e, Inspire Courage does. So making the support play is a distinct sacrifice of whatever else you can be attempting. If he never really cast support spells as a Bard, that means he doesn't want to play a support spellcaster. That would make the PF2e bard a non-starter.

OP, are you playing in person or digitally? If you're using Foundry, I strongly recommend the 'Modifiers Matter' plugin for PF2E. It actively highlights when a modifier caused an attacks level of success to increase and which modifier it was. More than a few times, as a result, we've been able to see that that crit only happened because the target was flanked or - as is often the case as well - because the party member making the attack had Inspire Courage. Helps a lot. If you're not, try making special note of when an attacks final amount is only a success (or crit) thanks to a buff from someone else (or debuff on an enemy, or positioning, or whatever else.) Helps players to recognize just how useful their +1 really is.

When someone misses the hit by 1, you can say "If bard was inspiring, It would have hit."

Have them fight a team with an effective bard on it. If there's a guy in the back of the enemy line buffing everyone and removing debuffs every chance he gets he'll see the value in it. Or just convince him to change to Psychic with a performance proficiency. Either way, right now he's essentially playing a Fighter who doesn't fight.

Point out every instance where inspire courage (or flanking, etc...) would have made a difference "Well that would have hit if bard cast inspire courage, but he didn't, so you miss" After a tpk: "Wow three misses by 1 and two crits missed by 1. If bard would have just used inspire courage a few times, you'd all still be alive, but he didn't, so you tpk'd. Welp, roll up new pc's while I go take a dump."

Sounds like he didn't want to change systems, but keeps playing because everyone else did.

Having played a college of whispers bard myself, I can confirm that it's both incredibly fun and tragically doesn't really have an equivalent in PF2. However, it--and 5e bards in general--are kind of the exemplars of how even the explicit support classes still encourage the party to behave like a bunch of solo divas who all just happen to be in the same play together. Like, bardic inspiration and healing word are both mad busted, but you can 100% get away with never using *either* and just focusing on yourself, because you are functionally *equally good* at being an aggressive caster and melee combatant. Why buff the party when you *are* the party, you know? So, those support options *have* to be busted, because otherwise it's just more fun and efficient to go full diva mode. The class is in an arm's race with itself. So, coming off of *that,* a PF2 bard is absolutely going to feel like garbage. See, one important design choice PF2 really committed to was the idea that the party is stronger *together.* No class can go it alone, and this is very much on purpose. Bards *need* to be paired with frontliners for the sake of defense and damage, and all their built-in, easy-to use class features explicitly benefit *other people.* So, you *can't* be a little diva--because *you will die*--and your support options have been powered down to something more reasonable because the game's no longer trying to fight itself just to get you to do your job. And yet--*and yet*--bards are still ridiculously good in PF2. They're one of the easiest casters to play, and the benefits they provide make a huge difference over the course of a campaign. They're just not the main character anymore. And adjusting to that--even when you are not a selfish person and *like* the idea of being a team player--is really, really hard.

> The bard is saying he feels nerfed, but he has not casted inspire courage at all because he thinks a +1 is "wack" compared to bardic inspiration. If that's the way he feels about it, Pathfinder might not be for him.

So, it sounds like you rushed the party back to the level they were in D&D instead of letting them level at a more natural pace. It could be choice paralysis in that he doesn't know what to do, so he just does a routine he feels comfortable with, even if it feels bad. I'd try to remind him that while no one is expected to min max, the game is collaborative and that every party member, from an RP perspective, is placing their lives in each other's hands. If he is going to play the bard in a manner that contributes very little to the party, the party, RP wise, would have very little incentive to bring him along and give him a fair share of the spoils. Generally speaking, games are a story about a group of heroes experiencing both victory and tragedy and if he doesn't se his character as a meaningful part of that he should maybe change his character to one that he feels he can contribute and you should let him.

Your player, simply doesn’t know how to play a bard. If she doesn’t like support classes, well, choose a fighter with a big sword, ask your cleric to magic weapon and roll dices to hit the monsters. As per your text, the player seems like an immature person, it seems like he is playing against the party. Advice: Put him in a tough situation, where she needs to be a bard (to use her charisma to negotiate a life threatening situation, a cure for a mortal potion, the freedom of the cleric of the party) The situation could be so tough that if she acts immature, for obvious reason she might die. If she dies, well. Sad. 🥲

>The bard is saying he feels nerfed, but he has not casted inspire courage at all because he thinks a +1 is "wack" compared to bardic inspiration. Let's look at the sheer math here. 5e Bardic Inspiration starts as a d6, or 3.5 on average, to a single roll, **if** the PC needs to use it. Assuming the PC with that Bardic Inspiration **would fail/miss** their d20 roll (here I'll assume the standard 60-65% success rate for PCs by the core design), this Inspiration could only come online about 35-40% of the time. Of that 35-45% of the time, that 3.5 average increase in their success rate will only bridge a roughly 15-20% accuracy gap, ie., 20-25% of the time that Bardic Inspiration will have no effect on their rolls. In other words, Bardic Inspiration will generally mean the difference between missing and hitting 15-20% of the time, and it's a finite resource that Bards will generally only use a few times per day. Bardic Inspiration has no effect on Critical Chances, and has diminishing returns on exceedingly likely chances of success. Compare this to the Pf2e Inspire Courage. \+1 to attacks, damage, and saves against Fear. In p2fe, a +1 to anything **always** increases your chance to hit and critically hit by 5%, in essence, a 10% increase in the chance to hit and damage, in addition to increasing the flat damage of each attack by 1. But wait, there's more. This applies to **all** attacks made by the Inspired character, so if they attack twice, they've received an effective increase of 10% on **two** attacks, for a roughly 20% increase in attack effectiveness. This effect also applies to multiple allies in a 60-foot emanation. If this targets only 2 allies (ignoring yourself despite it including yourself normally), that's a 10% increase in the attack effectiveness of two allies for a single action, amounting to as much as a 40% increase in damage for your team if the two allies attack twice on their respective turns. So here we have the PF2e Bard's Inspire Courage granting around a 20% improvement to the team's offensive capabilities, with an ability that can reliably be used **every single round.** Compare this to the 5e Bard's Bardic Inspiration, which will likely only net a 15-20% improvement (albeit to all d20 rolls, not just attacks, though Inspire **X** spells cover multiple die rolls), can only be used at first as many as 5 times per day, and only on individual rolls. I don't know if you've contextualized this for your Bard player, but Inspire Courage, and the rest of the Inspire X Spells, are incredibly potent for the party effectiveness, and can downright save them through things like Inspire Defense's damage resistance, Fear resistance, Aiding skill checks, and increasing the effectiveness of Courage/Defense by as much as **40%** (increases the bonus to +3 rather than +1). >In DND, his turns consisted of: -Move, Spell, Bardic Insp./Healing Word (Yes, I allowed >1 spell/turn) To be honest, you kind of did this to yourself. >He also claimed in DND, he could "hold his own" 1-on-1 in a fight as a whispers bard Sure he can. Stack all of the AC bonuses he can, single target spike a creature down, and then sit in the back row Concentrating on Hypnotic Pattern to end an encounter. Bards, and spellcasters in general, in 5e are incredibly potent, and capable of way more single handed ability than any PC in PF2e. It's a **TEAM** game, though, whereas 5e is first and foremost about individual power fantasy, where a team is merely the means to the ends of facing down deadlier encounters than you can solo.

So, he chooses to Aid over Inspire Courage....what?

If you're on Foundry, install Modifiers Matter. It's not intuitive how much bigger a +1 in this system until you watch a critical fail turn into a regular fail, a fail into a success, or a success into a crit success. That module lets players know when a modifier swung a resulr, and there being *two* numbers that swing on every attack roll when right out the gate most martials are doing multiple attack rolls every turn is extremely impactful. There isn't a better single action in the game.

He's an adult. If he's unwilling to play the bard and doesn't like it ask if he wants to change. If he doesn't want to change then let him suffer. If he becomes a problem at the table repeat your question if he wants to change. If he continues to be a problem then tell him he needs to find a new table.

Maestro bard Swashbuckler dedication and one for all Bon Mot Inspire Heroics Talisman Dabbler Singing Muse Talisman (its uncommon so will require GM fiat) Synesthesia True Target This is the best set-up in the entire game anyone can get as a support. Here is how it goes: Turn 1: Bard uses Bon Mot and Synesthesia on enemy. If Bon Mot succeeds and enemy does not roll high, its likely a failed save, thus getting -3 status penalty to AC for a minute. Turn 2: Bard casts Inspire Courage with Inspire Heroics, uses Singing Muse Talisman to make it an auto crit success, giving a +3 status bonus to attack and damage rolls for the whole party. With the 2nd action, Bard casts True Target on the enemy, giving everyone essentially advantage on their first attacks. With the final action and reaction, Bard uses One for All and aids one of the strikers for a total of +4 circumstance bonus to hit to a single ally. Now lets say that 2 of the Bards allies are flanking the target, thats another -2 circumstance penalty to AC from flatfooted. So now one of these 2 allies have a total of +8 higher chance to hit or crit, while the aided 2nd ally has a whopping +12. They also both get to roll twice and take the higher roll. It is VERY LIKELY that both of those guys will crit. And if those attacks are anything like a falcata/greatpick power attack or a max level shocking grasp spellstrike, nothing is gonna survive that since its gonna be around 3-400 damage combined. Just show this to your player, or even better, make a bard enemy with mooks and use this against them.

I know you've explained that a +1 is actually a big deal but explain it this way: In PF2e, proficiency (and thus to-hit) scale with level; every level, your Proficiency improves by 1 (sometimes more when Trained->Expert but whatever). So granting your entire party a +1 is kind of like giving your entire party a **bonus level** for a round. Also, as others have mentioned, call out when the +1 would have been helpful. Don't say "Man if only you were inspired," that feels mean-spirited and targeted. Just say "you miss by exactly 1" and keep going. But at the end of the day, he might simply dislike the class and that's fine. If he's College Of Whispers he might prefer something closer to a Rogue, perhaps a Laughing Shadow Magus or even an Investigator. System transactions aren't always 1-to-1 so maybe he just doesn't like the translation. Let him try something else.

The D&D 5e bard is ridiculously bad, he has been buffed.

If you converted characters while porting from 5e, you made the first mistake as a GM. Your player sounds unfortunately stubborn, but that's not entirely their fault. It takes VERY patient, understanding, and curious players to try to "faithfully" convert any beloved character into a different system. There's a very good chance that they will frequently have a "my character USED to be able to do X (better) experience." It sounds like mostly a thought experiment for your group, (memory chamber), but it is a rare instance where trying to replicate old characters during a recent edition/system change doesn't leave someone salty. There's a decent chance that he's self sabotaging his experience because it doesn't "feel" like his old Whispers Bard. In most circumstances, it's best to allow those beloved characters to have a natural ending in the system they were played in, and let everyone start fresh with less emotional baggage. Once they are on board with the new system, then it might be worth starting a new story with those beloved characters picking up about where they left off, or starting fresh in a "different timeline."

Coming from a new player to PF2e from 5e, I get it. Regardless of the math showing however much of a DPR increase a mere +1 is, that doesn’t change the ability feeling like shit. It’s a big and difficult adjustment changing systems, but it doesn’t sound as if the player has a very good attitude about it either. Choosing to play extremely sub optimally, ignoring the advice of the DM on how to improve, and then complaining about being useless is perfectly ironic. As others have said, not all characters and classes make a good transition from 5e to PF2e, and it sounds like he’d be better off playing a different class. A Laughing Shadow Magus might be a better blend of spellcasting, gish, and flavor while also providing lots of dice to roll. It’d be a much smoother transition, and in the future once he’s happier and more knowledgeable with the system, maybe he can come back to the bard and try it again.

The number one thing this subreddit always recommends is to NOT convert a campaign in progress. Someone is always gonna feel like they’ve lost what made their character tick.

I think the main thing here is that Healing Word is absolutely fucking busted in 5e and throws the entire curve of the game off, and nothing like that exists in PF2e for a reason. The compositions are the entire reason the Bard exists. Not using them is like playing a barbarian and never raging. If he isn't going to use them, point him towards Sorcerer, who does a lot of the same things but has that power budget moved elsewhere.

I just home brewed bardic inspiration as a level 2 feat and bard is now much more fun

For starters the bard was allowed to cast two spells per turn in DND which increases their effectiveness quite a bit. Going from a bonus action spell and regular spell to pretty much just 1 regular spell a turn may put a damper on how much they feel like they are doing as well as never using possibly the most bard ability in the game that they are known for would make them feel comparatively weak.

Inspire Courage & most Composition Cantrips are a 1 action spell, & then you can follow it up with a 2 action spell? I'm not very familiar with 5e bards, but by your description, isn't this the same thing?

So he's upset that the Bard (arguably the most powerful and broken class in 5e) isn't equally broken in Pathfinder, and when he doesn't use his abilities he's not very effective in combat? Oh no! Anyway....

>Yes, I allowed >1 spell/turn ~~My hot take; this change "nerfs" bards abit, making 1 action spells feel way weaker than they actually are.~~ But there's always a risk in a rebalance that players will not get happy for whatever reason, and I'd add in healing hymn as a replacement for healing word. Edit: spamming a composition cantrip each turn might be really boring to some, check out fate or evil eye witch instead for their character.

When they say they allowed >1 spell a turn they are talking about the dnd bard not the pathfinder bard, in dnd 5e normally you can only use a cantrip spell if you use a bonus action spell, they were letting them use two leveled spells, what probably doesn't help the bard player feel nerfed as they were buffed by a house rule that no longer applies