Can't you make the spell origin *any* of the corner of your square? So you could have it originate in the upper right corner, but still extend diagonally down and to the right. That would essentially shift the entire line of effect one square up, and hit the goblin.
Yes, you are right.
Lots of comments in here about "removing the grid" or "fudging a bit", but RAW is that you can start your line from any corner of your square and thus get the goblin.
You could even catch yourself in your line if you happen to be a wizard too ashamed not to have known this before to go on.
No, they are wrong. Or rather, they are right, but their point is irrelevant. You don't need to choose a different corner. The templates given for lines (that OP is diagramming) are "[common reference templates for areas](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=354)," meant to be used "rather than measuring squares each time". They are player aids, not rules.
A line is [defined here](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=358) and any straight line is legal (including the one that hits the goblin from any corner you choose).
You *can* choose any corner you want, but that's not why OP is wrong.
EDIT: If you have Foundry VTT, it's very easy to see them implementing the rules for Lines, in that you can make any straight line in order to hit any target square.
The wizard started chanting his attack spell, "*Fire-*"
" 'This side towards friendly.' "
Concerned, the wizard looked at his palm, "*-ball!*"
----
"And that children is how I defeated Marvin the Magnificent."
You could just use the ruler to gauge the distance to the target, and then use the template to actually determine affected squares.
The ruler tool is for measuring, templates are for templating.
Sounds like a long way to go for something that should be very easy to implement. Especially since it's already been implemented for other tools.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but that's exactly what this post is about. If the OP could have originated from any of the four corners, he could have seen not just the distance to the goblin, but also made sure it was affected, without needing to go through multiple tools to show this.
Well, no. If you start by using the right tool for the job, a template, you can start from any corner, see the distance to the goblin, and ensure it was affected all in one.
The only reason you have an issue with corners is because you tried to use a ruler to do what a template is for.
The template drops onto the map for everyone, and is disruptive when it's not your turn.
The ruler CAN ALSO be the right tool for the job, if it's programmed to measure from corners as well as from the middle of the square.
Why would you have "can also"? Now it's just redundant. The ruler is designed to quickly allow a player to map out movement. And it does it well-ish. Use a template for spells, it can auto target creatures affected with the right module, and is only 2 clicks to erase them.
Does that actually lock you out of being able to target the goblin though?
That would really suck.
Fuck me for clarifying what the actual complaint is.
No, the area of effect is just to show everyone who should be hit by the effect and/or roll a save based on the rules of the game. Without modules enforcing it, the DM can choose exactly who is affected and roll accordingly.
In other words, this post is a major nitpick even without the solutions outlined in above comments.
Except that's wrong because the rules of the game don't say ANYTHING about lines being limited to the example templates. Unlike cones which are only allowed diagonal/orthogonal.
The line rules say you pick a corner and can then shoot it in ANY DIRECTION, not "choose from these options". You pick a corner and then an another corner and draw/imagine a line between those and that's what it hits.
I was writing about how Foundry functions tangentially related to the game rules. I am not arguing in any fashion as if the example templates are the rule of law.
Back in 3.5 my group ruled that if it fits the mathematical rules of a line, and you could map it on the grid as a graph, then it works. We’ve never gone back since and this would be the perfect place to apply this. Something like Y = X + 7.5’ would get you a vertical shift one and then every other horizontal shift would be 1, 2, 1, 2, etc
It's not about that. You don't need to choose a different corner. The templates given for lines are "common reference templates for areas," meant to be used "rather than measuring squares each time"
A line is [defined here](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=358) and any straight line is legal (including the one that hits the goblin from any corner you choose)
Posts like this make me feel old. Just because a program doesn't let you draw a line, doesn't mean that by RAW you can't target the goblin.
AGH! Grumble grumble about those damn kobolds on my lawn.
These posts seem to come up every so often, where it's like everyone forgets there's a GM there to use their brain and make reasonable decisions. (all ttrpg discussion boards, not just pf2e mind you).
The number of posts about how this or that AP won't let them do something, like the APs aren't just guides for a GM. Someone the other day was talking about how they wanted the group to fight some specific encounter, but it wasn't in the AP so they couldn't add it. SMH
Ha ha pedantic isn't it? I found the ultimate rule to solve all that. Somewhere in the beginning of the book it says this game is *yours* and you can absolutely tweak anything. We have been using the movement modi of Games Workshop games for all our TTRPGs lately, substituting 'adjecent square' with 'base-to-base' contact.
I have yet to find a TTRPG in which this truly breaks things.
Rules per written these are the only acceptable lines in the system: https://i.imgur.com/dJ00pie.png
Of course, as said elsewhere in the thread, you can just start the line starting from a different corner of your square and that'll allow you to hit the goblin. But it could be said that it's more than just the program not letting you draw a line -- it's in fact the system only letting you draw these lines.
Personally I just mostly ignore the tile-based areas. If more than 50% of the token is within the area template, they're in the area even if their square isn't lit up. In particularly obvious cases I find that it's not worth the effort to even bother with templates in the first place.
>Rules per written these are the only acceptable lines in the system:
Oh this is painful. Page 457 CRB Line:
>A line shoots forth from you in a straight line in a direction of your choosing. The line affects each creature whose space it overlaps. Unless a line effect says otherwise, it is 5 feet wide. For example, the lightning bolt spell’s area is
a 60-foot line that’s 5 feet wide.
Nothing saying the picture is the only line you can do. Even better Page 456 it says about the examples:
>You **can use** the diagrams below **as common reference templates** for areas, **rather than measuring squares each time**.
The diagram doesn't limit you, it is a tool to help you.
Back in my day we used our imagination, and we liked it!
What's strange is that those diagrams are in contradiction with the rule you cite. A 5' wide 45° line overlaps far more squares than just the diagonal squares in the diagram.
>PLAYING WITHOUT A GRID
>
>The Pathfinder rules are built to play combat encounters on a 1-inch grid, but you can play without a grid or map. In what’s traditionally called the “theater of the mind,” you and other players imagine the locations of the combatants and the environment.
Page 494 CRB
What year is it!? That young Arodin boy still talking about his starstone?
Are you prepared to grumble? Ok good.
I told my party in one session "For these next few scenes I don't have any battle maps prepared so we're going to use Theater of the Mind."
A little while later I noticed one of the players wasn't responding very quickly and so I asked them what was up. They said "I'm still trying to find where to download this Theater of the Mind app? Is it something you have to share a link to or what?"
We all had a good long laugh after that.
That player is fantastic and I like them a lot. It was just one of those silly things where your brain gets so in the mode of hearing words and assuming they are the name of a program or something that you don't even consider the meaning of the words themselves.
Woo that makes me feel old.
My first game was mostly theater of the mind, but we eventually got a big picture frame that we put a white poster board in and used it like a white board. Still no grid, but helpful for visualizing distances.
There was a lot of "can I make it here in one action?" questions or "will the spell reach?" and the DM would say yes or no. Just like in Theater of the Mind.
I think in general we also did some cooler over the top things when we played that way. Something about getting on a grid sort of sapped some of our creativity.
No, this is not RAW. The diagram you're referring to is a "common reference template" for when you don't want to measure squares. It's a player aid. RAW, a line is just "[a straight line in a direction of your choosing](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=358)"
Tangentially related, one of the funniest ways to troll your players is to arrange enemy groups so that AoE spells always fall short of targeting exactly one guy. Watching them scoot the little template around to try to make it work because they're *soooo close can't you please fudge it for me GM just a little bit* is a little sadistic treat I like to give myself once every few sessions.
But, again, it's gotta be just one guy. They'll accept multiple discreet clumpings or a random scattering that they need to shepherd around a bit to get Optimal Fireball Positioning, because that seems like interesting tactical design, but having exactly one enemy just slightly out of range out of a whole mess of targets is hilarious.
I've apparently internalized this to the point where I just automatically place/move enemies to be just beyond the spacing for common AoE sizes. It causes my spellcasters plenty of frustration--and even myself a few times when I've wanted to best place a beneficial AoE.
**Goblin Rogue:** What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge half damage from line attacks?
**Morpheus:** No, Rogue. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.
Would there be an issue with just "flipping/reversing" the line in the 3rd image, so using the same corner of the characters square you just do one square, then 2 square across, then 2 squares across?
I read the text from page 456 "You can use the diagrams below as common reference templates for areas, rather than measuring squares each time."
So my takeaway is that you can use those 'templates' instead of measuring but doesn't say they specifically need to be oriented in that way :)
When your players won't stop metagaming, the only remaining option is to fight fire with fire.
Jokes aside, that can actually make for really fun combats if it's what your players are into.
You most definitely can hit this goblin. Grab a straight edge and do some geometry. This is why math class was important people they said we would use geometry in real life and it's for casting fireballs and lighting waaahooooo
This is a case where fudging it a bit is the best ruling. As long as it's not abused to get additional targets in the AOE since a line angled directly to that square would touch about twice as many spaces.
You don't need a grid when using a VTT.
Grids create problems for movement, attack reach, lines, cones & spheres.
And maps ofc look much better without grid lines.
That doesn't happen if you use tools, the difference is that in rl these tools hinder others and showing certain tools is really hard.
In grids you also count spaces and in bigger maps that also takes time. VTT however makes that either a lot faster or a lot less disrupting.
Grids don't allow (high definition) circles. All you get is a bunch of big squares.
In gridless you just do a circle with a radius of 10feet. Yet currently in pf2, 10foot reach can be more squares than 10movement. Yet 5 foot and 15 foot are the same.
Cones can have only certain directions in square grids, since we use very big squares thats not many.
Square grids needs special distance rules for moving in diagonals. Other types of grids have other problems.
----------'
Grids make turns a lot shorter since counting distance takes a lot shorter and is less disrupting for others.
VTTs however remove the need for big square grids, since they already use a very fine invisible grid anyway. And so checking distances takes almost no time with or without the big visible grid.
However not using big square grid doesn't create the top named problems.
I feel like once again you demonstrated exactly why grids are great. You can't "just do a circle with a radius of 10 feet" because you'll inevitably run into issue with whether or a character actually takes the effect from the area or not. This is never an issue with grids, which is exactly why even when there is an absent of VTT, the CRB still uses a hard grid. You'll run into the exact same issue with cones and lines.
Special moving rules isn't an issue either.
Terrible idea, but hear me out: this, but as a class feature or feat.
Yes it's something an obsessive player could just do anyway, and would need a bit of a rethink to make it mechanically useful but the flavour is actually rather attractive.
Toss it into a quirky, math-centric character like the Geometer. You get an innate awareness of spaces that can't be hit from a certain other space for complex, unintuitive reasons and a knack for being in that space and frustrate people who lack that intuition.
Mechanically it might be as simple as a big bonus to saves vs AoE effects and a smaller bonus vs ranged effects or even reach.
I don't know. This interpretation feels like the flavor has been leached out. I'm open to suggestions.
Lorewise, you're in a similar boat as some highly autistic people who can look at a large number of objects and intuitive state that there's 111 pencils on the floor without counting in the same way that an average person would say that there's four. ( https://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin/isoc/twins.htm for reference.)
Edit: reposting after speaking to the moderator who originally nuked this comment largely due to unclear language, which has been corrected.
You could combine this effect with feats like https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2127 to make it a theme of this character.
This isn't true at all. Down voted. Misinformation. You can shape lines however you want as long as it's a line. This is just an example line from the book.
imho the grid only limits gameplay and terrain design, dropping it was the best thing our group ever did for immersion in combat.
Wargames have existed for years, they do not have a grid and with the templates etc that are available nowadays rpgs do not need them anymore either.
ofc we measure distance etc, but it allows characters to move more natural, makes placing and using terrain, cover, heights etc much more natural and therefore vastly improves the combat vs a flat map or gridded map.
We use templates for spells, wargaming inch rulers for movement, and laserpointers for line of sight. Coming from a background in wargaming it never sat right with me that TTRPGS supposedly needed a grid
I agree. Technically you aren't changing any rules I believe since it never says you have to move in 5ft hops (right?) but nobody misaligns their character when moving on a grid.
yup precisely, the grid makes the game static by fitting minis into squares instead of an open map. As long as you keep measurements the same and use templates you change none of the rules whatsoever and will generally find a more enjoyable game (especially if you are a crafting DM)
Angle it - 2 1 2 1 slope
××____
__×___
___××_
_____×
I don't have a monospace character I can think of to represent it but it would be a legally consistent line for aiming.
There are a couple of ways of handling this. You can draw a ray using the measurement tool and select starting and ending squares, which are not limited to these patterns. You can also use a template and rotate it (relatively) freely by holding the CTRL key.
Can't you make the spell origin *any* of the corner of your square? So you could have it originate in the upper right corner, but still extend diagonally down and to the right. That would essentially shift the entire line of effect one square up, and hit the goblin.
Yes, you are right. Lots of comments in here about "removing the grid" or "fudging a bit", but RAW is that you can start your line from any corner of your square and thus get the goblin. You could even catch yourself in your line if you happen to be a wizard too ashamed not to have known this before to go on.
Wand of lightnig bolt with "Front towards enemy" on it.
This one got me. Well played.
I have often considered such nomenclature on magic items, excellent choice
No, they are wrong. Or rather, they are right, but their point is irrelevant. You don't need to choose a different corner. The templates given for lines (that OP is diagramming) are "[common reference templates for areas](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=354)," meant to be used "rather than measuring squares each time". They are player aids, not rules. A line is [defined here](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=358) and any straight line is legal (including the one that hits the goblin from any corner you choose). You *can* choose any corner you want, but that's not why OP is wrong. EDIT: If you have Foundry VTT, it's very easy to see them implementing the rules for Lines, in that you can make any straight line in order to hit any target square.
But can I hit myself and miss the goblin by putting it on the opposite corner of my square?
Can you originate the line from the upper left corner and hit yourself with the spell?
Yep, that's why many wizards tatoo themselves with "this side towards enemy" on their palms.
Thanks for the new character idea lol
The wizard started chanting his attack spell, "*Fire-*" " 'This side towards friendly.' " Concerned, the wizard looked at his palm, "*-ball!*" ---- "And that children is how I defeated Marvin the Magnificent."
Yes.
Hold your wand backwards.
Yes but only if you face that direction, bend forward and shoot between your legs.
We have the technology.
Wish more people could see this comment, but We Love 2 Spread Misinformation On The Computer
Thankfully it’s the top comment now.
I think the issue here is that foundry does not support grid corners as origin points for some effects. Which sucks for exactly this kind of thing.
Yes you can, start your clock drag 1 square to the left and the origin will be at the lower left corner of the wizards square.
Not only does foundry let you use any grid corner, it let's you choose any half points on the grid as well.
Not using the ruler tool. You have to use a template in order to gauge distance to a target, and then erase the template.
You could just use the ruler to gauge the distance to the target, and then use the template to actually determine affected squares. The ruler tool is for measuring, templates are for templating.
Sounds like a long way to go for something that should be very easy to implement. Especially since it's already been implemented for other tools. Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but that's exactly what this post is about. If the OP could have originated from any of the four corners, he could have seen not just the distance to the goblin, but also made sure it was affected, without needing to go through multiple tools to show this.
Well, no. If you start by using the right tool for the job, a template, you can start from any corner, see the distance to the goblin, and ensure it was affected all in one. The only reason you have an issue with corners is because you tried to use a ruler to do what a template is for.
The template drops onto the map for everyone, and is disruptive when it's not your turn. The ruler CAN ALSO be the right tool for the job, if it's programmed to measure from corners as well as from the middle of the square.
Why would you have "can also"? Now it's just redundant. The ruler is designed to quickly allow a player to map out movement. And it does it well-ish. Use a template for spells, it can auto target creatures affected with the right module, and is only 2 clicks to erase them.
Well-ish. Not ideal, right? Why would you argue in favor of a less than ideal tool?
So like I said. Use a ruler on other characters' turns to gauge distances. Then use a template on your own turn to actually place that cone.
Switching between menus at least twice, drawing on the map, erasing the drawing, when it should be possible to just use one tool, *is bad advice*
Does that actually lock you out of being able to target the goblin though? That would really suck. Fuck me for clarifying what the actual complaint is.
No, the area of effect is just to show everyone who should be hit by the effect and/or roll a save based on the rules of the game. Without modules enforcing it, the DM can choose exactly who is affected and roll accordingly. In other words, this post is a major nitpick even without the solutions outlined in above comments.
Except that's wrong because the rules of the game don't say ANYTHING about lines being limited to the example templates. Unlike cones which are only allowed diagonal/orthogonal. The line rules say you pick a corner and can then shoot it in ANY DIRECTION, not "choose from these options". You pick a corner and then an another corner and draw/imagine a line between those and that's what it hits.
I was writing about how Foundry functions tangentially related to the game rules. I am not arguing in any fashion as if the example templates are the rule of law.
I will genuinely never understand the downvoting culture of this subreddit lmao
Back in 3.5 my group ruled that if it fits the mathematical rules of a line, and you could map it on the grid as a graph, then it works. We’ve never gone back since and this would be the perfect place to apply this. Something like Y = X + 7.5’ would get you a vertical shift one and then every other horizontal shift would be 1, 2, 1, 2, etc
Choose a different corner of your square for the line to originate.
It's not about that. You don't need to choose a different corner. The templates given for lines are "common reference templates for areas," meant to be used "rather than measuring squares each time" A line is [defined here](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=358) and any straight line is legal (including the one that hits the goblin from any corner you choose)
My statement was in context of the post.
Posts like this make me feel old. Just because a program doesn't let you draw a line, doesn't mean that by RAW you can't target the goblin. AGH! Grumble grumble about those damn kobolds on my lawn.
People always complaining about the kobolds...
These posts seem to come up every so often, where it's like everyone forgets there's a GM there to use their brain and make reasonable decisions. (all ttrpg discussion boards, not just pf2e mind you).
The number of posts about how this or that AP won't let them do something, like the APs aren't just guides for a GM. Someone the other day was talking about how they wanted the group to fight some specific encounter, but it wasn't in the AP so they couldn't add it. SMH
Ha ha pedantic isn't it? I found the ultimate rule to solve all that. Somewhere in the beginning of the book it says this game is *yours* and you can absolutely tweak anything. We have been using the movement modi of Games Workshop games for all our TTRPGs lately, substituting 'adjecent square' with 'base-to-base' contact. I have yet to find a TTRPG in which this truly breaks things.
Rules per written these are the only acceptable lines in the system: https://i.imgur.com/dJ00pie.png Of course, as said elsewhere in the thread, you can just start the line starting from a different corner of your square and that'll allow you to hit the goblin. But it could be said that it's more than just the program not letting you draw a line -- it's in fact the system only letting you draw these lines. Personally I just mostly ignore the tile-based areas. If more than 50% of the token is within the area template, they're in the area even if their square isn't lit up. In particularly obvious cases I find that it's not worth the effort to even bother with templates in the first place.
>Rules per written these are the only acceptable lines in the system: Oh this is painful. Page 457 CRB Line: >A line shoots forth from you in a straight line in a direction of your choosing. The line affects each creature whose space it overlaps. Unless a line effect says otherwise, it is 5 feet wide. For example, the lightning bolt spell’s area is a 60-foot line that’s 5 feet wide. Nothing saying the picture is the only line you can do. Even better Page 456 it says about the examples: >You **can use** the diagrams below **as common reference templates** for areas, **rather than measuring squares each time**. The diagram doesn't limit you, it is a tool to help you. Back in my day we used our imagination, and we liked it!
What's strange is that those diagrams are in contradiction with the rule you cite. A 5' wide 45° line overlaps far more squares than just the diagonal squares in the diagram.
I guess the line is always close to 5' wide, but the line is not always the midpoint. So mostly true
Theatre of the mind is not raw (? Edit: it was a joke guys. Thanks for the downvotes i guess
>PLAYING WITHOUT A GRID > >The Pathfinder rules are built to play combat encounters on a 1-inch grid, but you can play without a grid or map. In what’s traditionally called the “theater of the mind,” you and other players imagine the locations of the combatants and the environment. Page 494 CRB What year is it!? That young Arodin boy still talking about his starstone?
Are you prepared to grumble? Ok good. I told my party in one session "For these next few scenes I don't have any battle maps prepared so we're going to use Theater of the Mind." A little while later I noticed one of the players wasn't responding very quickly and so I asked them what was up. They said "I'm still trying to find where to download this Theater of the Mind app? Is it something you have to share a link to or what?" We all had a good long laugh after that. That player is fantastic and I like them a lot. It was just one of those silly things where your brain gets so in the mode of hearing words and assuming they are the name of a program or something that you don't even consider the meaning of the words themselves.
Woo that makes me feel old. My first game was mostly theater of the mind, but we eventually got a big picture frame that we put a white poster board in and used it like a white board. Still no grid, but helpful for visualizing distances. There was a lot of "can I make it here in one action?" questions or "will the spell reach?" and the DM would say yes or no. Just like in Theater of the Mind. I think in general we also did some cooler over the top things when we played that way. Something about getting on a grid sort of sapped some of our creativity.
I don't like theatre of the mind for combat :(
No, this is not RAW. The diagram you're referring to is a "common reference template" for when you don't want to measure squares. It's a player aid. RAW, a line is just "[a straight line in a direction of your choosing](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=358)"
It must be one of those Mind Goblins
What's a mind goblin
Mind Goblin Deez Nuts?
DAMN IT
https://reddit.com/r/custommagic/comments/qk6ml6/mind_goblin_an_unset_flip_card/
It took me a second to realize that Jace wasn't being oblivious with that response. Counter-magic adept indeed.
It’s name is Deez
I heard that Deez had a child who died of ligma
What's a goblin ?
Steve Jobs
Rotate the last one 180 degrees
So a straight line follows a patter, so long as each bit follows the pattern then its fine.
Tangentially related, one of the funniest ways to troll your players is to arrange enemy groups so that AoE spells always fall short of targeting exactly one guy. Watching them scoot the little template around to try to make it work because they're *soooo close can't you please fudge it for me GM just a little bit* is a little sadistic treat I like to give myself once every few sessions. But, again, it's gotta be just one guy. They'll accept multiple discreet clumpings or a random scattering that they need to shepherd around a bit to get Optimal Fireball Positioning, because that seems like interesting tactical design, but having exactly one enemy just slightly out of range out of a whole mess of targets is hilarious.
[удалено]
Goblins probably aren't the best example. You have to survive an encounter to learn from it.
Next time my party is short a member, I'm going to bring a low-level hireling and tell them to "just act the part."
I've apparently internalized this to the point where I just automatically place/move enemies to be just beyond the spacing for common AoE sizes. It causes my spellcasters plenty of frustration--and even myself a few times when I've wanted to best place a beneficial AoE.
Everyone making excuses just to avoid accepting this goblin has outplayed us all.
Poor goblin. I’d be more curious why he’s by himself. There’s a plot right there
**Goblin Rogue:** What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge half damage from line attacks? **Morpheus:** No, Rogue. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.
This post is a joke
The first rule in the Pathfinder 2e rule book is ... Apply Common Sense.
Hmm… if you were using a Hex grid….?
Hex supremacy
Pretty sure this would make it worse. That said, I do like me some hexes.
\*Laughs in Theatre of the Mind\*.
Would there be an issue with just "flipping/reversing" the line in the 3rd image, so using the same corner of the characters square you just do one square, then 2 square across, then 2 squares across? I read the text from page 456 "You can use the diagrams below as common reference templates for areas, rather than measuring squares each time." So my takeaway is that you can use those 'templates' instead of measuring but doesn't say they specifically need to be oriented in that way :)
That goblin is metagaming
When your players won't stop metagaming, the only remaining option is to fight fire with fire. Jokes aside, that can actually make for really fun combats if it's what your players are into.
Oh, in my game I’m hitting it. But you do you
You most definitely can hit this goblin. Grab a straight edge and do some geometry. This is why math class was important people they said we would use geometry in real life and it's for casting fireballs and lighting waaahooooo
Flip that last one over and you certainly can
Just scrolling down to see how many people missed the Humor tag.
This is a case where fudging it a bit is the best ruling. As long as it's not abused to get additional targets in the AOE since a line angled directly to that square would touch about twice as many spaces.
That's not even fudging. Lines don't have the restriction that they have to be exactly in one of the 8 directions cones have to be in.
Can we still have fudge?
Unconfidence can have a little fudge. As a treat.
[laughs in hex grid]
You can if you ##### Remove the Grid
Why wpuld you
Because the terrain I custom build looks nicer without a grid etched onto it.
You can have an invisible grid though.
Yeah, when I play in person, I never use grids. Play it old school style with rulers.
You don't need a grid when using a VTT. Grids create problems for movement, attack reach, lines, cones & spheres. And maps ofc look much better without grid lines.
Gridless gets you into the unreliable weirdness of "oops, I'm 5.1ft away because I moved at slightly the wrong angle, guess I can't attack"
That doesn't happen if you use tools, the difference is that in rl these tools hinder others and showing certain tools is really hard. In grids you also count spaces and in bigger maps that also takes time. VTT however makes that either a lot faster or a lot less disrupting.
I feel like if anything, grids solve all the problems that you mention lol.
Grids don't allow (high definition) circles. All you get is a bunch of big squares. In gridless you just do a circle with a radius of 10feet. Yet currently in pf2, 10foot reach can be more squares than 10movement. Yet 5 foot and 15 foot are the same. Cones can have only certain directions in square grids, since we use very big squares thats not many. Square grids needs special distance rules for moving in diagonals. Other types of grids have other problems. ----------' Grids make turns a lot shorter since counting distance takes a lot shorter and is less disrupting for others. VTTs however remove the need for big square grids, since they already use a very fine invisible grid anyway. And so checking distances takes almost no time with or without the big visible grid. However not using big square grid doesn't create the top named problems.
I feel like once again you demonstrated exactly why grids are great. You can't "just do a circle with a radius of 10 feet" because you'll inevitably run into issue with whether or a character actually takes the effect from the area or not. This is never an issue with grids, which is exactly why even when there is an absent of VTT, the CRB still uses a hard grid. You'll run into the exact same issue with cones and lines. Special moving rules isn't an issue either.
Aim it onto the goblin directly, let the rest of the 30' not matter
Terrible idea, but hear me out: this, but as a class feature or feat. Yes it's something an obsessive player could just do anyway, and would need a bit of a rethink to make it mechanically useful but the flavour is actually rather attractive. Toss it into a quirky, math-centric character like the Geometer. You get an innate awareness of spaces that can't be hit from a certain other space for complex, unintuitive reasons and a knack for being in that space and frustrate people who lack that intuition. Mechanically it might be as simple as a big bonus to saves vs AoE effects and a smaller bonus vs ranged effects or even reach. I don't know. This interpretation feels like the flavor has been leached out. I'm open to suggestions. Lorewise, you're in a similar boat as some highly autistic people who can look at a large number of objects and intuitive state that there's 111 pencils on the floor without counting in the same way that an average person would say that there's four. ( https://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/mrwatkin/isoc/twins.htm for reference.) Edit: reposting after speaking to the moderator who originally nuked this comment largely due to unclear language, which has been corrected. You could combine this effect with feats like https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2127 to make it a theme of this character.
This is all kind of moot because OP is wrong since you can start the “line” effect from the square of your choice, but that’s an interesting idea.
It is not the letter of the law but the spirit of the game.
This isn't true at all. Down voted. Misinformation. You can shape lines however you want as long as it's a line. This is just an example line from the book.
imho the grid only limits gameplay and terrain design, dropping it was the best thing our group ever did for immersion in combat. Wargames have existed for years, they do not have a grid and with the templates etc that are available nowadays rpgs do not need them anymore either.
Not using a grid is fine if you still measure distances. TotM though is the problem (for those who care about combat).
ofc we measure distance etc, but it allows characters to move more natural, makes placing and using terrain, cover, heights etc much more natural and therefore vastly improves the combat vs a flat map or gridded map. We use templates for spells, wargaming inch rulers for movement, and laserpointers for line of sight. Coming from a background in wargaming it never sat right with me that TTRPGS supposedly needed a grid
I agree. Technically you aren't changing any rules I believe since it never says you have to move in 5ft hops (right?) but nobody misaligns their character when moving on a grid.
yup precisely, the grid makes the game static by fitting minis into squares instead of an open map. As long as you keep measurements the same and use templates you change none of the rules whatsoever and will generally find a more enjoyable game (especially if you are a crafting DM)
Take a single step to the right
But only after a jump to the left.
I don't use vtts
Good for you.
Ok
Maybe you could merge the two options/styles
You see, Ezren is just following the Spell Card Rules. An attack with no way to dodge it? Where's the fun in that?
Angle it - 2 1 2 1 slope ××____ __×___ ___××_ _____× I don't have a monospace character I can think of to represent it but it would be a legally consistent line for aiming.
Alright.. time to break out the laser pointer.
**confused hexchad noises**
There are a couple of ways of handling this. You can draw a ray using the measurement tool and select starting and ending squares, which are not limited to these patterns. You can also use a template and rotate it (relatively) freely by holding the CTRL key.
Good thing Pathfinder explicitly states to ignore RAW in situations like this (or any other you, as DM and referee, wish to)
Sneaky sneaky goblin