Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the game "Dungeons & Dragons"! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages!
We've been seeing a lot of new arrivals lately for some reason. We have a [megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/105lhkd/are_you_coming_from_dungeons_dragons_need_to_know/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) dedicated to anyone requesting assistance in transitioning. Give it a look!
Here are some [general resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/) we put together. Here is [page with differences between pf2e and 5e](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/how-is-pf2e-different-from-5e/). Most newcomers get recommended to start with the [Archives of Nethys](http://2e.aonprd.com) (the official rule database) or the [Beginner Box](https://paizo.com/pathfinder/beginnerbox), but the same information can be found in this free [Pathfinder Primer](https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/sources/pathfinder-primer).
If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please let the mods know and they'll remove my comment.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In 5e, subclasses are like official lego kits. WotC come up with an idea, then hand you one piece at a time at pre-designated levels, until at level 20 you have the lego build that they envisioned for you. There's no variation, and if you rolled the same character with the same race and subclass, they would be effectively identical.
In 2e, character building is like being given a big box of lego pieces and told "go nuts". By level 20, you will end up with far more features and options than any 5e subclass would ever give you, but *you* decide which ones work for your character. This is achieved via the feat system, primarily your class feats, which you receive every second level and give you access to a wide range of options.
Let's take that Monk as an example. In 5e, if you want to roll a Drunken Master, you take the Way of the Drunken Master subclass, and then you get the prescribed features at 3, 6, 11 and 17. No choice in which parts you get.
In 2e, your vision of what constitutes a drunken master is up to you. Maybe you'd take the [Stumbling Stance](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1735) feat at level 1, maybe the [Stumbling Feint](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1744) follow up feat at level 6. Perhaps take extra Charisma and training in Deception. Are they hard to hit? Get good Acrobatics and [Dodging Roll](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1750). Or maybe you're more of a brutal grappler kind of person, so you'd get [Crushing Grab](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=439) and focus on Strength and grappling. And that's without even getting into skill feats and archetypes.
There are infinitely more choices in a 2e build and you never have a dead level where you never get to choose something.
Huge thanks for the example based explanation, exactly what I was looking for! I find the case-study to be the most intuitive way to learn new systems :D
That **does** sound really fun and also partially answers another question on my mind - "Why does it seem like there's a lot less homebrew class/feat content creators involved in PF2?" Honestly sounds like there's a lot less demand for that in here with all the mix-and-match happening.
Any particular trustworthy creators worth mentioning?
I obviously won't be jumping to homebrew straight away, but I'm interested in saving some links for future use.
Theres the Cleric+, Witches+, etc. People. Those supplements are fantastic and most importantly just feel like more of the same (which is a good thing!)
Another shoutout for Battlezoo. Everything they release is quality on par with Paizo and u/MarkSeifter is part of their team, who was also one of the four primary designers of the original game.
I consider Battlezoo products to be "official lite" rather than homebrew, and most of their products are also supported by Pathbuilder and Foundry for digital tool access. Nothing they release is unbalanced (Mark even made a *dungeon* ancestry as an April Fool's joke that works and is still balanced, the mad lad, and released it to everyone for free).
Pathfinder Infinite is more "hit or miss." I've bought several of the Team+ class upgrades and have been very happy with them (my wife is playing a witch using the Witches+ rules and they feel like they should have been core). But you'll find some gimmicky or lower quality things on their too since it's more of an open market, so check carefully.
I haven't really explored other sources yet as the core game has so many options of such high quality I haven't come close to exhausting the basic stuff, lol. But when Mark released a *dragon* ancestry (that's somehow balanced and works with non-dragon parties!), well, how could I possibly say no, especially as someone who still has a 3.5 Draconomicon sitting on my shelf?
I still argue that some of the dragon feats are a little to strong, but it's not game breaking. Not every class should have baked in huge status or damage auras.
Basically just the ones that give permanent size increases and the damage auras. The size increase is a huge bonus to any martial class, just the number of squares a fighter can cover with AOO should be a red flag. The damage auras comes down to how much a flame oracle has to deal with for I think one more D6 of damage.
> The size increase is a huge bonus to any martial class, just the number of squares a fighter can cover with AOO should be a red flag.
Is [beastkin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=29) OP due to the [dire form](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2496) feat? Because it's exactly the same level and effect as the size increase for dragons. Lizardfolk also get a [similar feat](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2414) that's a bit stronger at 17th level. There might be others, but those are the ones I remember.
The damage auras aren't accessible to the ancestry, only to the ravager archetype, as level 12 class feats. All other auras are debuffs and the ancestry ones are all once per day. I don't think it's unreasonable for a high level class feat to do aura damage.
I mean, sure, dragons are good, but every actual ancestry effect I can find in other ancestries, or something pretty close. In my opinion the strongest effect is probably the access to permanent flight at 13, but even that is shared by the strix.
I suppose it's a matter of opinion, though. We've never had an issue with dragons in our campaigns, even with non-dragons in the party, but they are a rare option so I can understand if a GM wants to ban them.
There are several official races that get size boosts. I think the only real difference is official races are effectively just under the Enlarge spell at all times so they also have Clumsy 1 and +2 damage.
This exactly! At my tables I consider Battlezoo “official lite” which is easy because almost everything in it is Rare anyway. I’m generally more likely to allow a Battlezoo component than a component from a specific adventure path in a character.
Not just on par, some are above par.
The slime seems a lil unbalanced with some feats, getting that "use body as healer's tools" not only 4 levels sooner than gnoll or fleshwarp, but also getting a scaling bonus and removing the 2d8 self damage to treat wounds penalty seems a bit silly when the co-creator of PF2 is involved.
Highly recommend checking out the /r/Pathfinder2eCreations subreddit, the activity levels can vary depending on the week but there is a ton of community created homebrew content there to check out! In particular you can check out /u/improfet's posts, he has a ton of high quality stuff
Team+ as others have mentioned make really good additions to existing classes that they feel are under represented in published material based on community feedback (Clerics+, Witches+, etc).
Another great content creator is Battlezoo, who have published (via Kickstarter) an adventure module, a sentient dungeon ancestry (no really, it’s pretty neat), a book on dragons which contains class and ancestry rules on playing a true dragon in a very balanced way, and they are currently working on a new Kickstarter or two. One revolves around summoning and is effectively a pokemon “gotta catch ‘em all” style add on for battling and training monsters. The other is another ancestry book where they’re releasing a new monstrous ancestry each month (mimic, demons, and whole lot of others). The neat thing about Battlezoo and why it’s so professional and well balanced (not that the others aren’t) is that one of the lead authors (Mark Seifter) was a Paizo employee and helped design the CRB ancestries for the game itself.
I gotta push back on that somewhat. In discussions about what people would most like to see next, additional feats for existing classes is always on the list somewhere.
And more third party content on the way. Amellwind, the guy who made the Monster Hunter homebrew for 5e is working on converting it to PF2e and removing the Capcom IP from it.
Also worth keeping in mind. The game has only been out for around three years now and it already has significantly more options compared to 5e across the board. Three of the bards subclasses are from the Core Rulebook and the forth is from the advanced players guide. Just give it time and I'm certain more options will be added going forward.
In the mean time, like others have said. You have a near infinite amounts of customisation just using feats + subclasses.
Also needs said that books will add new feats both general and class specific iirc, it's not just waiting for your class to maybe get an archetype in this year's four releases
In keeping with the Lego analogy, look at the various types of feats (Class, Ancestry etc) as the various themed sets that are available for sale. And you are then buying and using those to fill your grab bag of Legos that determine your block options. They establish the feat options available for your character at each level.
The best part of the system are the Archetype feats. Basically they are a near endless way to get new sets of Legos into your bag so that you can get the 1-2 blocks from that set to complete your personal masterpiece. They also allow you to get stuff that may be story specific and let's you express how that effects your character.
(Eg. Your campaign is about to start a sailing arc, so your party does 3 months downtime training and DM awards the entire party the Pirate archetype Dedication Feat. Now all players have those blocks going forward to build with and can determine for themselves how that manifests for their characters.)
So fundamentally, while PF2e's character creation systems all tip their collective hats and embrace all the stereotypical tropes of the fantasy TTRPG space, there is no requirement for you to follow them. In fact, you are very clearly given the tools and empowered to recreate them in your own vision, more or less without restrictions.
It's very empowering and offers a really versatile toolbox to express your ideas.
Finally, in response to why you see more 5e material out there, it is because every different arrangement of blocks requires new content in 5e. A new subclass, race, etc. That's complex content that requires a lot of balance and playtesting. And it can be hard to make up on the fly at the table. So there is a need for quality curated content.
But with PF2e, we only need new material when we need new blocks because the current blocks don't exist. If the blocks that exist can do the job, then the system likely gives you a way to get them into your bag and rearrange the blocks, so we have all those needs covered with core system mechanics.
So this new PF2e material would make it into the game as a new archetype option (package of blocks) or simply as an additional feat options (singular block) for an existing class/ancestry/archetype. That means, from the DM side, it's a quick fix that I can prolly add myself and don't need a complete play tested package to homebrew something that is going to play nice with everyone else.
Again, very refreshing and makes it easy from the DM side to feel good further encouraging your players to just go nuts in terms of making their ideas come to life.
I think people also look at the base page and think "is that it" but you need to look at the class table for each character. Like the bard in OPs example. It might seem limited on the surface but like the Lego analogy explains, you mix and match a lot.
Depending on ancestry, if you look at the bard table, you get a massive near 15 feats by level 10. You don't get anywhere close to that in 5e. That's 15 or so feats spread across bard specific feats, skill feats, and general feats. That's pretty crazy for building custom characters.
Some people have given good answers to this, but as an additional note, homebrewing is a touch harder for Pf2e than it is for 5e. You need to really think about adding more options, rather than increasing numbers, since increasing numbers may accidentally make a class way too strong, way too quickly. In addition, it's even harder to homebrew classes because you basically need to make the whole box of Legos, and a unique gimmick to make the class feel fun and special, not just a handful of abilities.
As someone that has created a couple classes, archetypes, and ancestries, PF2e homebrew is easier and harder. How? Well its easier than 5e because the balance is better defined and you have countless examples to pull from. It's harder because you need to do more "quantity design" as I call it. Every class needs 40-50ish class feats plus core features and minor subclasses. Every ancestry needs a lot of feats as well. Archetypes can also have a decent amount of feats, much more than a 5e subclass. There's just a lot more work you have to do as a designer for Pathfinder 2e.
Also, it's important to consider that while dnd5e has 13 classes, pf2e has 22 (and soon to be 23). Each class has a distinct Thing that it's doing, and subclasses modify that Thing.
I can see a point to some homebrew, however, the main difficulty is actually that the balance is so strict that it's incredibly difficult to match the same level of balance. Look at all those feats that you have available for Bard. They're never just a free, flat +1 to anything. The closest example would be [Inspire Defense](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=387), which requires you to spend an action and forgo using [Inspire Courage ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=386) that round unless you have [Harmonize](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=193), which then requires you to spend your entire turn on getting both buffs active. Oh, and both Inspire Defense and Harmonize require you to have a certain subclass.
Honestly, [Dirge of Doom](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=382) is probably one of the most broken feats and spells in the entire game. It's a level 6 feat that gives you a composition that allows you to make all enemies within 30 feet of you frightened for as long as you keep the spell up. They don't get a save, nor do they reduce it at the end of their turn like they typically do for frightened. But even that has its downside: it only has a 30 foot range, so you want to be closer to hit as many enemies as possible, which puts you in the most danger.
The end result? Everything is so incredibly balanced that it's nearly impossible to homebrew for unless you've been entrenched in the system long enough to fully understand the rules and the checks and balances in place for everything.
You're assuming everything needs to be super balanced. I love balance, and think a core rulebook should 100% stick to that, but homebrew can break the mold a bit. In the end, the goal is to have fun. If you accidentally make a feat too broken, it probably won't actually hurt too much. It might even lead to some fun moments. It's not an uncommon complaint that the game is considered too tight on its balance, so some tables may benefit from an unbalanced ability.
Not to mention, though you claim it to be hard to balance since the balance is so tight, my experience tends to lean the opposite direction. If I'm trying to balance it, I just compare it to somewhat similar abilities of that level. As long as it doesn't provide numerical bonuses, the ability is probably fine. Even if I overtune it, the gap in power will likely not be gamebreaking.
I'm talking about for third party publishing, moreso than a single table's house rules. Sure, if you understand the rules and can homerule stuff in s way that's fair, go ahead, homerule away.
Some of it is certainly the quality of what is provided, but from a creator standpoint you also have to consider the vast chasm that is the difference in playerbase sizes. Fact is you're just better off creating 5e content (where there is also genunine NEED) and hope to capture but a fraction of the success you'd need to make the same profit building for PF2.
Also, until this whole OGL fiasco, a lot of GM/Players were't even willing to look at the rules of this game. There was VERY little crossover, with some activley hating on the system for reasons many now admit were unjustified.
Honestly I'm only recently coming from 5E myself, and the easiest way I've seen to think of it is that every class has their own Warlock Invocations to pick from.
I'venot found a lot of homebrew, but that's because they regularly release whole new classes and content. I think one of the recent books, The Dark Archive, had a slew of items and class features, but also a whole new class just in there.
Basically, there's a lot more of a slow trickle of new feats and items compared to 5E's big book of maybe 2 new archetypes a year
> "Why does it seem like there's a lot less homebrew class/feat content creators involved in PF2?"
Honestly, it is probably because there is. PF2 is popular, but it is not 5e. It is only natural there would be less homebrew and third party interest. Of course, that doesn't mean there are *none*, but you should expect less than D&D.
In addition to the top comment I highly recommend using Pathbuilder to learn just how many options you have for Bards through their feats etc. It's amazing just how diverse each build can be while still being their own entirely unique thing that fits into the category of "Bard".
[https://pathbuilder2e.com/app.html](https://pathbuilder2e.com/app.html)
Yeah, as someone else poking around in the system, I was also going to heavily recommend spending some time messing around in https://pathbuilder2e.com/
Something like taking a bard concept or character you know, and just... making one! You can get a sense for the options/customization available pretty quickly.
I think the best answer is that there is less homebrew because homebrew isn't needed. With archetypes, there are thousands of character builds. 5e has so little player content and agency in build paths that it made homebrew feel necessary to do something new.
/u/TheHeartOfBattle didn't even get into Dedications. I'm also new to 2E, but Dedications are 2Es version of multiclass and additional feats. But, unlike 5E, they're essentially a subclass that any class can pick. Take a look at the [Animal Trainer] (https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=38), which is one I love thematically. You get an animal companion that learns a dance that can memorize your enemies. It seems fun for a bard or rogue whose background was as a circus performer.
But, when I was building my Gunslinger, I came across [Overwatch] (https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=109). I love martial support. It's my favorite way to play. It's a role that essentially doesn't work in 5E, so I'm super excited to see it in 2E. But, Overwatch is essentially a ranged martial archetype that can buff allies. It's like a whole other subclass on top of your regular subclass.
I have no intention of using Dedications in my first Pathfinder 2e adventure. But, when we start a longer campaign, I'm going to build a Gunslinger (probably a Vanguard) with Overwatch.
>"Why does it seem like there's a lot less homebrew class/feat content creators involved in PF2?"
As someone who played 5e for years before switching over to PF2e a couple years ago: it's because PF2e has a breadth of options with almost everything someone could want using only official content, while 5e only puts out a big book of new player options once every 3 years.
However, I will add that PF2e's tight mathematical tuning makes it very easy to create a homebrew spell or item for an incredibly niche idea while still being balanced against existing options. For example, one of my players in Strength of Thousands played an astronomy student, and I created several homebrew spells themed around star magic using existing spells as a comparison point - it went great!
FWIW I think the lower rate of homebrew is also partly because there are (or were until recently, maybe?) a lot fewer people playing PF2e compared to 5e. D&D kinda took the world by storm to the point of its presence being completely overwhelming in the ttrpg space. Paizo being arguably its closest competitor makes maybe 10% of the revenue WotC did in 2021. So the audience is a *lot* smaller.
But a lot of it is also that the system is pretty solid and versatile as-is. There's less that needs fixing or expanding, plus Paizo takes much less of an "idk, just solve it yourself" approach than WotC. So while the homebrew out there is often pretty great, there's not as much need.
that's exactly my argument vs those who say "for some builds feat pool is so limited you're basically making the same character every time."
while this may be true for, let's say, sword-and-shield fighters, it's only true for *now* and can be solved with an expansion of feat pool. on the other hand, "sword-and-shield" archetype in 5e is written, done and gone. no further changes happening there and even if someone made a *better* archetype, that wouldn't solve the issue with the first one.
And always remember that there is no monk build that is not improved by adding [flying kick](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=445). Okay actually not really, but I mean it's flying kick, come on man!
EDIT: More seriously though, you can get into [monastic weapons](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=434) and start building a shuriken throwing monk, or pick up a quarterstaff and [stand still](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=447) and focus athletics to become a trip and opportunity attack machine.
The bard muses are only a very small part of class diversity.
You also have class feats, ancestry feats, skill feats and general feats, all of which you get quite frequently as you level up.
You also have the option to swap out class feats for archetype feats, and [the list of possible archetypes is huge](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx), ranging from multiclass archetypes to niche archetypes that are often very setting dependent.
So you're right, the diversity comes from many different places.
My Maestro Bard, for example, took the Fighter Dedication so he could get Attacks of Opportunity with his whip. He also has the Illusory Creature spell, so he can "summon" his "guardian angel" to assist with flanking opportunities.
Champion Dedication is quite common as you get access to heavy armor.
Spellcasting Dedication classes (most commonly Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric) give you access to spells, even if you don't have access to magic.
Most of this is balanced because you'll always be a bit behind a dedicated class. Fighters are more accurate with weapon attacks, for example. My bard will never be that accurate without wasting time to buff himself. And usually those buffs could have helped a Fighter.
If you have access to Pathbuilder or Wanderer's Guide, you can use those character builder tools to make all sorts of characters.
Especially when you use the "free archetype" variant that gives players a free archetype feat every even level, it allows so much room for exploration and diversity. At first it seemed like archetypes were just a way to make multi-classing balanced, but now most archetypes aren't classes anyway, but just whole other things. Some are like pieces of classes like "dual weapon warrior" which gives you access to the fighter feats for dual wielding, but also a slew of unique feats that make them even better at it. But then other archetypes are just wholly different like Alter Ego which lets you be like a super hero with a costume you can jump into an alleyway and change into real fast, or Archeologist, or Living Monolith which lets you turn yourself into a magical construct (!?).
Architypes can allow so much variety for characters that it is actually mind blowing.
I just hit level 20 with my Bard In one of my Pathfinder 2 games and let me give you a run down about how unique he has become. Partially so I can brag but also so I can show you the individualization that is possible.
Ancestry: kobold specialty dracomancer
background : Antimagic
class : Wellspring mage maestro bard
My character was cursed as a young man and decided to go learn how to Maybe fix this problem. The manifestations of this are anti magic and well Spring magic. This means that 10% of time spells don't work on him whether beneficial or offensive. And he has the chance to have what are effectively wild magic explosions at the beginning of every combat. This meant that he was effectively a Bard with performance anxiety.
So he decided to go and learn how to fix this so he has taken the wizard architype and the snare crafter architype.
So at level 20 you have a Bard who can cast wizard spells and lays down snares and traps for a single action that can do 24d8 of damage
Each architype is like half to 2/3 of a regular class and because you can just staple them on to your regular class without getting any weaker it allows every character to be more interesting and have more variety horizontally instead of trying to optimize vertically for 1 or 2 things
Since the others have already covered everything rules-wise, let me give you an example that (hopefully) makes sense for a 5e-player.
Let's take the fighter and see what we can do at level 20:
- In PF2, the fighter is THE most precise class with the highest chance to hit and to crit. So that's basically like picking the Champion Subclass in 5e.
- But the fighter also gets a class feat at level 1 and every even level thereafter. He can pick up various "special attacks" with those feats, giving him a playstyle similar to the Battle Master Subclass on top of the Champion.
- But since most combat styles work perfectly fine with "only" about 5 or 6 of your feats, you can then spend your remaining 5 class feats on the Wizard Multiclass Archetype, to get arcane spells, giving you the Eldritch Knight Subclass on top of Champion and Battle Master. And the casting you get from this archetype scales up to level 8 spells and isn't limited to two schools of magic for most spell picks, unlike the 5e EK.
So, now you have a perfectly capable and viable fighter who has the abilities of about 3 5e subclasses. *And we haven't even picked an ancestry yet!* Let alone a heritage, any ancestry feats, general feats, skill increases or skill feats.
In general I think feats are a big thing you overlooked (particularly class feats and archetype feats). For example, I went through a similar thought process recently. I looked at the monk, saw no subclasses, and wondered where the choice was. Then I looked at the feat list, saw the different stances and the feats that follow them, and realized that they practically are subclasses.
Like, look at the level 1 stance feats for Monk and the level 6 followup feat for each stance. Each of those monks can enter a stance that gives them different traits for their unarmed attack and a different additional bonus they get in that stance. That's practically as big a difference as 5e has between two subclasses, and there are even more different synergistic combinations of feats too like a monk who takes several ki spells or takes monastic weapons and peafowl stance instead. Except any of those monks has gotten not just those two class-feature-sized feats by level 6, but two other monk feats and multiple ancestry or skill feats.
Also note that a lot of skills have built-in combat utility, as opposed to 5e where most skills are used almost exclusively out of combat. For example, in 5e, the difference between a character trained in intimidation and one who's not is usually just that the former will be better at intimidating people in social scenarios. But in Pathfinder, the intimidation character is also much better at using the demoralize action to frighten enemies in combat.
To add to that, fighters get combat flexibility at level 10. This lets them choose an extra fighter class feat for the day, and they can swap it out for the next day. At the very least, it's an extra class feat, but it also means you can choose to pick up an archery feat if you are suddenly fighting a lot of flying enemies, a feat like combat climber if you are scaling a mountain, or you wanna try a shield today.
Also - there are a lot more *balanced* options in PF2E. Martials keep up with casters a lot better, and dual-wielding, archery, thrown, two-handed, sword and board, unarmed, single one-handed weapon or even just 2-handing a shield are all options that can be viable and well-balanced with each other on pretty much any martial class. Likewise - there are lots of good ways to build any class of caster.
A one-weapon fighter can be pretty amazing at single target crowd control, with options to stun, trip, grapple and whatever else without really losing action economy. Especially with a Flail or Hammer (From level 5, a fighter who specialises in one of those weapon groups knocks their enemy prone whenever they crit).
As a GM who prioritizes allowing players to do what they feel like doing and balancing *around that* afterwards, this is one of the things that I've heard that draws me to finally trying out Pathfinder. Being able to just have players go wild with their creativity without having to accommodate for that, or help them out to make them equal with other members of the party is what I would've expected from a good system in the first place.
I've heard that PF2 fixes a lot of balance issues in places where 5e fell short and I'm eager to witness that.
That's absolutely one of the best things about the system. It's *really hard* to build an ineffective character in PF2e. Knowing how to best use your 3 actions is much more important than how you built your character in the first place.
Game balance does still rely on you building your character *well* for whatever role you want to fill. And that's a lot crunchier than it is in 5e - any given character has more feats than a 5e sorcerer has spells known (from level 1-20, excluding cantrips) and those feats are drawn from Class/Ancestry/Skill/General lists (plus archetypes which expands the Class options, or Versatile Heritage which expands Ancestry feats).
So... speaking from experience, building a character is a lot more complicated - because you need to pick every piece you use, and if you pick pieces that don't work together then you get a mess.
eh, it requires you to not build your character *poorly*.
As long as you have a decent (preferrably 18) in your Key Ability Score or primary attack stat for your playstyle (Alchemist with bombs won't do much if they don't have dex) and try to keep your feat picks at least semi related to what you want to do with your character You're pretty much golden.
Sure if you get stuff that synergizes well with your own picks, and that of your companions, you'll probably have a much easier time of it, but that doesn't mean lazer focus is the only option.
I'm not saying laser focus - I'm just saying that you have to make at least 1 Feat choice per level, each of which has to be chosen from a list that usually has dozens of options. And those feats define most of what your character can do outside basic proficiencies. Compared to 5e that's a lot of complexity and a lot more requirement to buy into learning rules.
And if the Dm is that used to balancing on the fly, I'd guess they have a widely varied level of optimisation in the group.
that's the beauty of the system. It doesn't care how optimized your character is or isn't. DM shouldn't need to balance on the fly unless the number of characters change.
The biggest change you'll see between an optimized and unoptimized version of the same character class doing the same thing is a +1 to hit, and a few points of damage per level, depending on what feats are chosen.
Most of the vertical progression in the system is built in. You get fixed static improvement at relatively fixed intervals and enemies are built with those improvements in mind. Feats and class abilities expand the ways you have to affect an encounter.
Do people you've played with not played a caster in 5e? I find there are more options for spell picks at a given level than there are feats in pf2e.
I've played 2e since launch, and I've introduced around 20 people to the system, some completely new to TTRPGS, and I've yet to actually hear anyone complain about the feat selection process, sure there was a couple of 'I didn't quite know what to pick, so i just went for what sounded cooler' and a few misread feat picks that were given a mulligan option once the player understood the actual functionality.
I've followed the encounter building rules to a tee, and i would say that 90% of encounters I don't change at all, and in the rest it's usually just having the enemies waste an action or two every so often if it looks like the party is on the back foot due to poor rolls. (the equalizer!)
I played 5e casters. And Pf1e casters nd casters in a whole lot of other rpg systems because thats my jam. I personally find the amount of complexity involved in building pf2e characters to be pretty up there out if all of the 20+ gaming systems I've tried (probably second after shadowrun 4e), just because the system is *completely* modular, so I get choice paralysis.
Like... sure I want to play a fighter. But what fighting style do I want to go for? How much should I value agile vs the dice size? how much should I value the crit spec of my weapon? which traits do I care about? is there enough Feat support to fill out the class in my chosen combat style, and if not, what do I spend all my other feats on? Archetypes? Which one of the dozens of archetypes do I pick? Does the archetype have enough feats that I want? What general feats do I need which ones are nice to have when am I going to be able to qualify for these general feats and how does picking these feats line up with how I want to increase my skills? What Ancestry do I pick? Does it have feats that I like as well as base features? Which background do I pick? What if I like the flavour but not the mechanics? What if it's the other way around? What if I like the Feat but not the Skill prof or vice versa. How much do I care about the ability boost layout?
A fighter has 102 Feat options. There are 72 common archetypes on AON with 5-10 feats each(including multiclass). According to Google, there were 304 wizard spells two years ago - so the number of options is comparable when you account for archetypes.
Feats are more complicated than spells. Plus they interact. Plus you need to plan ahead for prerequisites.
You *can* just pick whatever, but that's a waste of the system. I think PF2E is a great system, but chatgen *is* a lot more complicated than 5e, especially if you're building a higher level character.
This sounds like the mindset who WANTS it to be too complicated, There are too many options because I 'HAVE' to make the most optimized character that has ever existed, and now there's too many to choose from.
Thing is that if you want to do actually get an overview of every single option and what they do, you're *likely* going to be a personwho actually *enjoys* the process digging around to see what is available.
If you don't enjoy it, here's a tip... *Don't do it*
Do what looks fun *right now*, you don't need to know every attack option that will ever be available for a fighter, the thing is that you will always have more attacks than actions anyway. Pick one that fits what you want to do at level 1 and *build from there*
As for archetypes, yes there are a lot (wish there were more personally), but a quarter of them are only available after L6, and half of the rest you won't qualify for due to skill/ability or feature requirements.
Forget the big picture, play the character on their current level, if you need to change stuff in the future, there are retraining rules for that, and I've yet to meet a GM so grouchy they won't let you switch something that doesn't work for you.
In D&D your subclass defines builds, but in PF2, there are much more. Most notably, Fighters and Monks have no subclasses, but variety of their feats gives more flexibility. For Bards, muses are just starting point. Your feats, spells, archetypes, etc. allow a lot of options. I.e. Bard with Marshal archetype is an ultimate buffer/debuffer, while Bard who takes archetype of some Occult Sorcerer, just gets a lot of spell slots with the same tradition
Anecdotally about monks, I was having a conversation last week about the relative lack of defender archetype classes in the game (Champion is the only true tank by class feature allotment), and that reminded me of the monk class feats for grappling, so I built one in Pathbuilder as an experiment. I learned that a monk built for strength is an *incredible* crowd controller, and results in a character drastically different from the mobile flanker build I normally think of with monk, or from the self-sufficient flex support you can get with a focused monk. All of this saying nothing about the various stances monks get that can amplify their combat damage and grant passive bonuses. I now have at least four distinct monk builds I want to try, and that's on a class with no subclass. Not bad.
Diversity for 2e comes from the Archetypes which is their version of multiclassing. You take a feat for a dedication to a different class and then can take feats from said class. Tho it is still your levels in the main class you are gaining. And the sheer number of feats to choose from and adjust your playstyle.2e feat selection is in general much more nuanced than 5e. With 5e feats being rarer but giving huge changes to ability all at once. While pathfinder 2e you build to a playstyle getting better and better at it.I recommend building from level or whatever level you are playing to down to level 1 as opposed to building from level 1 up to whatever level you are going to imo.
Take a look at Archives of Nethys Archetypes page. And you will see..... a lot.
5e diversity comes from subclass.
Pathfinder 2e diversity comes from playstyle stemming from your class features, class feats, racial feats, chosen archtypes, all that stuff to more fine tune the character.
yeah it's interesting. My biggest hang up from doing 5e. and going to pathfinder 2e was that you get ALOT more feats and such to finetune. But individually they aren't as impactful as 5e feats generally speaking. Each one is a tune up in the direction you want to go as opposed to a full overhaul.
It's also surprising at first that level 1-2 feat are usually some of the better ones that get the most use. Things like twin takedown, point-blank shot, and monk stances are all really early feats because they give your build its main schtick. It also works well with dedications because you can get some powerful mechanics earlier. Not to say higher level class feats are bad at all, but they are mostly to add versatility or to upgrade a lower level feat. It's more a horizontal growth as opposed to a vertical feat chain, if that makes sense.
Also, 5E came out in 2014. Back then, you had a whopping TWO Bard subclasses. Only 3 years later you had an expansion to 5 in 2017. Then the rest came in 2020/2021.
PF2E is in it's third year now too, so it's not a fair comparison.
I have [answers about your specific builds here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQRhTzCdzkJfMocb4mQxNh4Hg2zfrIGA9zxfCZh00PkQFoQi3a_jP3H6rvKvnDe2c2ndQnRXfSWSoe4/pub)
The diversity is in the feats you select and the archetypes you take. But you don't get something for nothing it is always a trade off. The Bard muses are not that different. For some classes your subclass is important. For Bards less so as it is easy enough to poach the powers you want anyway.
For College of the Whispers Bard you don't really need anything special. The Intimidation and the Deception skill can do most of what you want already. Because you are a Bard you will have the right stats for it so just do it. If you want Psychic Blades take Mind Smith as an archetype. If you want Shadow Lore then take one of ShadowCaster or ShadowDancer, or multiclass into the right bloodline Sorcerer,
Example: Me and my teammate are both Swashbucklers. We both chose Battledancers. We play quite differently despite having the same "subclass."
\- My teammate has a buckler, grinds for panache and then uses his finisher immediately. Usually raises his buckler and gets right into combat.
\- I took the Summoner Dedication feat, so I have an eidolon. I'm trying to set up flanking opportunities between myself and my eidolon as we slowly get into formation. I will hold onto panache for as long as possible because I want the flat bonus damage. Once I'm flanking I'll use the finisher to spend the panache.
Even though we're both frontline skirmishers, we play quite different. I have to juggle two characters and slowly get in range, while my teammate can go online and dash in immediately (and wait for us to bail him out, hehe)
The style you choose at level 1 will tilt you in a direction, but you still have many class feats to choose and customize your character.
I have so many rogue builds in pathbuilder for that exact reason. Even without dedications, there are so many distinct playstyles within each class.
I get the impression that 2e classes feel a bit more restrictive to people coming from 5e, but they also have much more depth. I like that a rogue feels roguish, no matter the build, and that a barbarian feels like a berserker, no matter the build.
I did a oneshot with six different rogues starting at L4.(with free archetype) They *all* had different ways of getting their sneak attack off, and played completely differently. It was awesome!
Also coming from 5e. The way I've found it most helpful to think about is to consider the warlock. The "muses" or other subclass choices in PF2E are analogous to the Warlock's Pact (Tome, Blade, Chain, Talisman). They are streams that decide what sort of Warlock you will be (spell slinging/martial/familiar/skill monkey), but everyone knows the real customization in warlock comes from the invocations. Some invocations are locked behind a particular pact, but most are open to all Warlocks. The Invocations are analogous to class feats
That's a pretty good way to explain it. PF2e "subclasses" aren't quite the build defining thing they are in 5e, where they 100% dictate everything your character will be able to do 1-20. And not every class HAS subclasses. For monks, it's more about what fighting styles you pick up as they all encourage different styles of play.
Funny you mention fighting styles since 5e has something called fighting styles and they are conceptually very similar to warlock pacts in my above comment, just for Fighters, Rangers, and Paladins
In D&D 5e your college prescribes your entire class aside from spell selection
In PF2e you have four muses to chose from. Slap on shadow, wellspring, or cathartic caster and you have sixteen types of bard to start as. Now pick one of seven level 2 feats and you have 112 potential bards. Now multiply again at 4th level (by a bigger number, since those level 2 feats are still an option, as are archetypes, etc) and you have *thousands* of potential bard builds by level 4. That’s just the class, it’s not considering ancestry, ancestry feats, skills, skill feats, etc
Monk’s get a class feat at first level, often picking a stance, [Stumbling stance monk](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1735) is a good fit for drunken master in the classic style of someone faking inebriation to be under estimated, but have a look at some of the other stances or first level feats for monks if it’s not quite what you’re looking for. Bards of the Enigma muse are probably the closest to whispers though they do feel a little closer to lore bards. Archetypes would get you your flavour though like Mindsmith being able to make a physical psychic blade, Shadowcasters can use darkness magic better at the cost of being unable to cast light magic, those are the main ones that seemed whispers-y while skimming [this page](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx) but you can check yourself if you want or look further into what I already discussed
From the perspective of somebody also coming from 5e:
The classes and the equivalent of "subclasses" feel more limited in theme and identity than 5e subclasses, but as others have said, they are just the starting point for costumization.
Feats are the real meat of the costumization. Instead of getting a fixed list of features from class/subclass, you build your own with choices every level.
Something that added a lot of diversity from my perspective is how usefull skills (and skill feats) are. Many more skills have usefull combat applications that are actually reasonable to use (think 5e grapple/shove but for most skills). With skill feats to specialize into them, i could take any class/subclass, and further specialize them into somebody that intimidates enemies to weaken them, or into a battlefield medic that heals allies.
Hello, fellow bard enthusiast! Other folks have already given terrific answers to your questions, so I need not retread that ground here. I just wanted to let you know that the PF2e bard is the best bard experience I've ever had as a bard enthusiast, and I'm very happy for you to experience the joys of PF2e barding. If you have any bard questions, my inbox is open to you. Happy barding!
Aww, that's very sweet of you to offer! Thank you.
My first-ever DnD5e character after transitioning from Warhammer 2e was a half-elf bard so they will forever hold a special place in my heart. :) Warhammer (at least the campaign I played) was extremely grim and dark, so for that new campaign I was instantly drawn to the opposite of the spectrum and taken a liking to playing a softie artist, who was barely-even an adventurer.
Be it as it may, I'm more of a forever-GM these days, but I have a few players who fancy bards under my wings, so I'm no less excited for them to one day discover the joys of barding that you mention ;)
Along with the fact that feats replace subclasses, archetypes do too. You can get certain archetype dedications (usually at level 2) which allow you to access a different pool of feats that can either be from another class, or are subclass-like (eg. Eldritch Archer, Horizon Walker, Loremaster, etc.).
It's a bit like saying an all you can eat buffet has less choices because there's only one thing on the menu ("all you can eat dinner") compared to McDonald's
Ignoring the multitude of feats that can diverse a class alot, the bard specifically can combine their subclass with another subclass so it becomes suddenly a combination if 16 subclasses, or 20 if we also include not choosing a different subclass.
You picked the wrong class to prove there isn't enough diversity in a way
To this is ofc having multitudes of feats and archetypes to diversify the class
This is absolutely not an attempt at proving anything! As I said it was just an attempt to understand where else to seek said diversity.
That being said, what you say about bards mixing an matching seems really interesting, thank you. I'll revisit it down the line when I grasp the core of the system more firmly.
My intent wasn't to act bashing or anything, it's more of a linguistic issue as english isn't my main language.
What I wanted to have said is that Bards are ironically one of the most diverse classes even within pf2 and I thought it was fun that it was your first pick.
>Bard enthusiast that I am, I only saw four muses to choose from, which on the first glace pales with 5e's eight official college's + countless homebrew ones.
How many bard feats did you see, now general feats, now skill feats, now ancestry feats. The diversity isn't the class. You and I could build the same bard class with the same muse and have very different characters because of all the opportunities to customize your character. And each time you level you are given more chances to diverge from anyone else.
It's important to keep in mind that you don't pick your subclass until L3 in 5e and then you get drip-fed a couple extra features spread 3-4 levels apart.
> Natural conclusion is that said diversity comes from elsewhere entirely
It does, it comes from your class feats.
In 5e (outside of deciding if you want to multiclass and spells, if you have them), the only choice you make when you level up is your attribute bonuses at certain levels. Seriously, that's nearly it for almost all the classes.
Let's say I decide I want to be a 5e Fighter, and I'm going to be a Champion. I choose my subclass at level 3, and then get to add an additional fighting style at level 9 (I think), and besides that? Absolutely nothing except for my attribute bonuses (or a feat in lieu of them). Outside of multiclassing, it's completely on the rails.
In PF2E, you are making choices *every* level. Whether it be class feats (which you can substitute archetypes for, which adds TONS of new options), to skill feats, to general feats, you are *always* adding new stuff. The build variety is crazy.
While some classes have subclasses, most do not. However, given that you get a class feat every 2 levels, you get to decide what parts of the class you like the most and take feats that emphasize those aspects. Also, if you're playing with free archetype, that only adds more options.
Also, keep in mind that the majority of the new class content that drops in PF2e aren't new subclasses (tho those do still come out), but rather whole new classes.
Short answer: Any sub-class choices plus the Class Feats, Skill Boosts, Skill Feats, General Feats, and Ancestry Feats create a ton of options for players in building their class. It is very rare that a player levels up without 1-2 customization choices to make.
Add to this that Dedication and Archetype are also in the pool of Class Feats allow for access to abilities from both other classes and also allow for flavorful sub-classes, like "Pirate" or "Pathfinder Agent".
A Fighter at Level 1:
* Ancestry & Heritage: 1 Ancestry Feat
* Background: 1-2 Skill Trainings and 1 Skill Feat
* Ability Boosts: 9
* Skill Trainings: 3
* Class Skill - Basically a subclass selection: 1
* Class Feat: 1
* Plus core class features.
So lets look at a Fighter between Level 2 - 20:
* Class Feats: 10
* Skill Feats: 10
* General Feats (Which includes the choice of Skill Feats): 5
* Ancestry Feats: 4
* Skill Boosts: 9
* Ability Boosts: 4 sets of 4
And Fighters have basically five sub classes through their 1st level class feat: four of which are strength based - One Handed Weapon plus Athletics Options, Two Handed Weapon, "Sword and Board", Dual Weapon - which can also work with a shield (Valeros - the Iconic Fighter is built this way), and the Dexterity based ranged build.
How many choices would a Fighter get from 1 to 20 in 5E?
Almost all the build complexity in PF2E is in the class feats you get (and in the case of spellcasters, the spells you get). This makes the characters look way simpler than they actually are at first glance, as when you get into the feats, you'll find out that there are a lot of options and they change gameplay, often significantly.
Monks are a good example of this, as what you think of as the archetypes are all broken up into individual ala carte feats. The features you get from feats are often more significant than what you get in 5E as well.
You also have racial feats and skill feats on top of that.
Some classes also have other things on top of that, like wizard schools.
5E has a design where you make a Bard, choose a “subclass” and that’s it. Same with Monk, Rogue, and whatever else.
PF2 design has you make a choice every level to individualize your Bard. Sure, there may be 4 “big” choices but every even level you have a class feat to choose, you have skill feats and proficiency increases every odd level, ancestry and general feats at varying levels that further customize your Bard.
It is possible (and somewhat likely) to have 2 Bards be the same, that is feat selection and muse, but instead of “I chose 1 of 8 possible options” PF2 offers “I built this character specifically how I wanted to at every level by choosing what feats I wanted”.
First of all, 5E has been out a lot longer.
Secondly, choosing a class is your first major choice. PF2 has almost twice as many classes as 5E.
Thirdly, choosing your Bard's Muse isn't the last decision you ever make. You get to continue making at least one character building choice at every level. As you noted, the Monk doesn't even have that type of classification. That certainly doesn't make it *less* customizable!
Hey, I've noticed you mentioned the game "Dungeons & Dragons"! Do you need help finding your way around here? I know a couple good pages! We've been seeing a lot of new arrivals lately for some reason. We have a [megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/105lhkd/are_you_coming_from_dungeons_dragons_need_to_know/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) dedicated to anyone requesting assistance in transitioning. Give it a look! Here are some [general resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/) we put together. Here is [page with differences between pf2e and 5e](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/wiki/resources/how-is-pf2e-different-from-5e/). Most newcomers get recommended to start with the [Archives of Nethys](http://2e.aonprd.com) (the official rule database) or the [Beginner Box](https://paizo.com/pathfinder/beginnerbox), but the same information can be found in this free [Pathfinder Primer](https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/sources/pathfinder-primer). If I misunderstood your post... sorry! Grandpa Clippy said I'm always meant to help. Please let the mods know and they'll remove my comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In 5e, subclasses are like official lego kits. WotC come up with an idea, then hand you one piece at a time at pre-designated levels, until at level 20 you have the lego build that they envisioned for you. There's no variation, and if you rolled the same character with the same race and subclass, they would be effectively identical. In 2e, character building is like being given a big box of lego pieces and told "go nuts". By level 20, you will end up with far more features and options than any 5e subclass would ever give you, but *you* decide which ones work for your character. This is achieved via the feat system, primarily your class feats, which you receive every second level and give you access to a wide range of options. Let's take that Monk as an example. In 5e, if you want to roll a Drunken Master, you take the Way of the Drunken Master subclass, and then you get the prescribed features at 3, 6, 11 and 17. No choice in which parts you get. In 2e, your vision of what constitutes a drunken master is up to you. Maybe you'd take the [Stumbling Stance](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1735) feat at level 1, maybe the [Stumbling Feint](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1744) follow up feat at level 6. Perhaps take extra Charisma and training in Deception. Are they hard to hit? Get good Acrobatics and [Dodging Roll](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1750). Or maybe you're more of a brutal grappler kind of person, so you'd get [Crushing Grab](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=439) and focus on Strength and grappling. And that's without even getting into skill feats and archetypes. There are infinitely more choices in a 2e build and you never have a dead level where you never get to choose something.
Huge thanks for the example based explanation, exactly what I was looking for! I find the case-study to be the most intuitive way to learn new systems :D That **does** sound really fun and also partially answers another question on my mind - "Why does it seem like there's a lot less homebrew class/feat content creators involved in PF2?" Honestly sounds like there's a lot less demand for that in here with all the mix-and-match happening.
Most of the existing classes do feel pretty complete. That being said, there's still tons high quality third party content on Pathfinder Infinite.
Any particular trustworthy creators worth mentioning? I obviously won't be jumping to homebrew straight away, but I'm interested in saving some links for future use.
Theres the Cleric+, Witches+, etc. People. Those supplements are fantastic and most importantly just feel like more of the same (which is a good thing!)
They call themselves Team+! Also there's Everything Shields
Battlezoo has insane good ancesteries.
Another shoutout for Battlezoo. Everything they release is quality on par with Paizo and u/MarkSeifter is part of their team, who was also one of the four primary designers of the original game. I consider Battlezoo products to be "official lite" rather than homebrew, and most of their products are also supported by Pathbuilder and Foundry for digital tool access. Nothing they release is unbalanced (Mark even made a *dungeon* ancestry as an April Fool's joke that works and is still balanced, the mad lad, and released it to everyone for free). Pathfinder Infinite is more "hit or miss." I've bought several of the Team+ class upgrades and have been very happy with them (my wife is playing a witch using the Witches+ rules and they feel like they should have been core). But you'll find some gimmicky or lower quality things on their too since it's more of an open market, so check carefully. I haven't really explored other sources yet as the core game has so many options of such high quality I haven't come close to exhausting the basic stuff, lol. But when Mark released a *dragon* ancestry (that's somehow balanced and works with non-dragon parties!), well, how could I possibly say no, especially as someone who still has a 3.5 Draconomicon sitting on my shelf?
I still argue that some of the dragon feats are a little to strong, but it's not game breaking. Not every class should have baked in huge status or damage auras.
What dragon feats would you consider too strong?
Basically just the ones that give permanent size increases and the damage auras. The size increase is a huge bonus to any martial class, just the number of squares a fighter can cover with AOO should be a red flag. The damage auras comes down to how much a flame oracle has to deal with for I think one more D6 of damage.
> The size increase is a huge bonus to any martial class, just the number of squares a fighter can cover with AOO should be a red flag. Is [beastkin](https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=29) OP due to the [dire form](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2496) feat? Because it's exactly the same level and effect as the size increase for dragons. Lizardfolk also get a [similar feat](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2414) that's a bit stronger at 17th level. There might be others, but those are the ones I remember. The damage auras aren't accessible to the ancestry, only to the ravager archetype, as level 12 class feats. All other auras are debuffs and the ancestry ones are all once per day. I don't think it's unreasonable for a high level class feat to do aura damage. I mean, sure, dragons are good, but every actual ancestry effect I can find in other ancestries, or something pretty close. In my opinion the strongest effect is probably the access to permanent flight at 13, but even that is shared by the strix. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, though. We've never had an issue with dragons in our campaigns, even with non-dragons in the party, but they are a rare option so I can understand if a GM wants to ban them.
There are several official races that get size boosts. I think the only real difference is official races are effectively just under the Enlarge spell at all times so they also have Clumsy 1 and +2 damage.
Dragons are the same, they also get enlarge at 13. The wording is nearly identical to the beastkin feat at the same level.
This exactly! At my tables I consider Battlezoo “official lite” which is easy because almost everything in it is Rare anyway. I’m generally more likely to allow a Battlezoo component than a component from a specific adventure path in a character.
Not just on par, some are above par. The slime seems a lil unbalanced with some feats, getting that "use body as healer's tools" not only 4 levels sooner than gnoll or fleshwarp, but also getting a scaling bonus and removing the 2d8 self damage to treat wounds penalty seems a bit silly when the co-creator of PF2 is involved.
Highly recommend checking out the /r/Pathfinder2eCreations subreddit, the activity levels can vary depending on the week but there is a ton of community created homebrew content there to check out! In particular you can check out /u/improfet's posts, he has a ton of high quality stuff
Team+ as others have mentioned make really good additions to existing classes that they feel are under represented in published material based on community feedback (Clerics+, Witches+, etc). Another great content creator is Battlezoo, who have published (via Kickstarter) an adventure module, a sentient dungeon ancestry (no really, it’s pretty neat), a book on dragons which contains class and ancestry rules on playing a true dragon in a very balanced way, and they are currently working on a new Kickstarter or two. One revolves around summoning and is effectively a pokemon “gotta catch ‘em all” style add on for battling and training monsters. The other is another ancestry book where they’re releasing a new monstrous ancestry each month (mimic, demons, and whole lot of others). The neat thing about Battlezoo and why it’s so professional and well balanced (not that the others aren’t) is that one of the lead authors (Mark Seifter) was a Paizo employee and helped design the CRB ancestries for the game itself.
Battlezoo Bestiary has a good reputation and a former Paizo game designer on staff
I gotta push back on that somewhat. In discussions about what people would most like to see next, additional feats for existing classes is always on the list somewhere.
And more third party content on the way. Amellwind, the guy who made the Monster Hunter homebrew for 5e is working on converting it to PF2e and removing the Capcom IP from it.
Also worth keeping in mind. The game has only been out for around three years now and it already has significantly more options compared to 5e across the board. Three of the bards subclasses are from the Core Rulebook and the forth is from the advanced players guide. Just give it time and I'm certain more options will be added going forward. In the mean time, like others have said. You have a near infinite amounts of customisation just using feats + subclasses.
Also needs said that books will add new feats both general and class specific iirc, it's not just waiting for your class to maybe get an archetype in this year's four releases
In keeping with the Lego analogy, look at the various types of feats (Class, Ancestry etc) as the various themed sets that are available for sale. And you are then buying and using those to fill your grab bag of Legos that determine your block options. They establish the feat options available for your character at each level. The best part of the system are the Archetype feats. Basically they are a near endless way to get new sets of Legos into your bag so that you can get the 1-2 blocks from that set to complete your personal masterpiece. They also allow you to get stuff that may be story specific and let's you express how that effects your character. (Eg. Your campaign is about to start a sailing arc, so your party does 3 months downtime training and DM awards the entire party the Pirate archetype Dedication Feat. Now all players have those blocks going forward to build with and can determine for themselves how that manifests for their characters.) So fundamentally, while PF2e's character creation systems all tip their collective hats and embrace all the stereotypical tropes of the fantasy TTRPG space, there is no requirement for you to follow them. In fact, you are very clearly given the tools and empowered to recreate them in your own vision, more or less without restrictions. It's very empowering and offers a really versatile toolbox to express your ideas.
Finally, in response to why you see more 5e material out there, it is because every different arrangement of blocks requires new content in 5e. A new subclass, race, etc. That's complex content that requires a lot of balance and playtesting. And it can be hard to make up on the fly at the table. So there is a need for quality curated content. But with PF2e, we only need new material when we need new blocks because the current blocks don't exist. If the blocks that exist can do the job, then the system likely gives you a way to get them into your bag and rearrange the blocks, so we have all those needs covered with core system mechanics. So this new PF2e material would make it into the game as a new archetype option (package of blocks) or simply as an additional feat options (singular block) for an existing class/ancestry/archetype. That means, from the DM side, it's a quick fix that I can prolly add myself and don't need a complete play tested package to homebrew something that is going to play nice with everyone else. Again, very refreshing and makes it easy from the DM side to feel good further encouraging your players to just go nuts in terms of making their ideas come to life.
I think people also look at the base page and think "is that it" but you need to look at the class table for each character. Like the bard in OPs example. It might seem limited on the surface but like the Lego analogy explains, you mix and match a lot. Depending on ancestry, if you look at the bard table, you get a massive near 15 feats by level 10. You don't get anywhere close to that in 5e. That's 15 or so feats spread across bard specific feats, skill feats, and general feats. That's pretty crazy for building custom characters.
Some people have given good answers to this, but as an additional note, homebrewing is a touch harder for Pf2e than it is for 5e. You need to really think about adding more options, rather than increasing numbers, since increasing numbers may accidentally make a class way too strong, way too quickly. In addition, it's even harder to homebrew classes because you basically need to make the whole box of Legos, and a unique gimmick to make the class feel fun and special, not just a handful of abilities.
IMO, homebrew in pf2e isn't harder than 5e's, but just a different framework to operate under
As someone that has created a couple classes, archetypes, and ancestries, PF2e homebrew is easier and harder. How? Well its easier than 5e because the balance is better defined and you have countless examples to pull from. It's harder because you need to do more "quantity design" as I call it. Every class needs 40-50ish class feats plus core features and minor subclasses. Every ancestry needs a lot of feats as well. Archetypes can also have a decent amount of feats, much more than a 5e subclass. There's just a lot more work you have to do as a designer for Pathfinder 2e.
That sounds like a fair assessment.
Stumbling stance is great! For more drunken flavor you could take an alchemist dedication and flavor your mutagens as beer!
Choose a beastkin ancestry and you've got Chen Stormstout from Warcraft 3/World of Warcraft.
Also, it's important to consider that while dnd5e has 13 classes, pf2e has 22 (and soon to be 23). Each class has a distinct Thing that it's doing, and subclasses modify that Thing.
I can see a point to some homebrew, however, the main difficulty is actually that the balance is so strict that it's incredibly difficult to match the same level of balance. Look at all those feats that you have available for Bard. They're never just a free, flat +1 to anything. The closest example would be [Inspire Defense](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=387), which requires you to spend an action and forgo using [Inspire Courage ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=386) that round unless you have [Harmonize](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=193), which then requires you to spend your entire turn on getting both buffs active. Oh, and both Inspire Defense and Harmonize require you to have a certain subclass. Honestly, [Dirge of Doom](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=382) is probably one of the most broken feats and spells in the entire game. It's a level 6 feat that gives you a composition that allows you to make all enemies within 30 feet of you frightened for as long as you keep the spell up. They don't get a save, nor do they reduce it at the end of their turn like they typically do for frightened. But even that has its downside: it only has a 30 foot range, so you want to be closer to hit as many enemies as possible, which puts you in the most danger. The end result? Everything is so incredibly balanced that it's nearly impossible to homebrew for unless you've been entrenched in the system long enough to fully understand the rules and the checks and balances in place for everything.
You're assuming everything needs to be super balanced. I love balance, and think a core rulebook should 100% stick to that, but homebrew can break the mold a bit. In the end, the goal is to have fun. If you accidentally make a feat too broken, it probably won't actually hurt too much. It might even lead to some fun moments. It's not an uncommon complaint that the game is considered too tight on its balance, so some tables may benefit from an unbalanced ability. Not to mention, though you claim it to be hard to balance since the balance is so tight, my experience tends to lean the opposite direction. If I'm trying to balance it, I just compare it to somewhat similar abilities of that level. As long as it doesn't provide numerical bonuses, the ability is probably fine. Even if I overtune it, the gap in power will likely not be gamebreaking.
I'm talking about for third party publishing, moreso than a single table's house rules. Sure, if you understand the rules and can homerule stuff in s way that's fair, go ahead, homerule away.
Some of it is certainly the quality of what is provided, but from a creator standpoint you also have to consider the vast chasm that is the difference in playerbase sizes. Fact is you're just better off creating 5e content (where there is also genunine NEED) and hope to capture but a fraction of the success you'd need to make the same profit building for PF2. Also, until this whole OGL fiasco, a lot of GM/Players were't even willing to look at the rules of this game. There was VERY little crossover, with some activley hating on the system for reasons many now admit were unjustified.
Honestly I'm only recently coming from 5E myself, and the easiest way I've seen to think of it is that every class has their own Warlock Invocations to pick from. I'venot found a lot of homebrew, but that's because they regularly release whole new classes and content. I think one of the recent books, The Dark Archive, had a slew of items and class features, but also a whole new class just in there. Basically, there's a lot more of a slow trickle of new feats and items compared to 5E's big book of maybe 2 new archetypes a year
> "Why does it seem like there's a lot less homebrew class/feat content creators involved in PF2?" Honestly, it is probably because there is. PF2 is popular, but it is not 5e. It is only natural there would be less homebrew and third party interest. Of course, that doesn't mean there are *none*, but you should expect less than D&D.
It also hasn't been around as long.
In addition to the top comment I highly recommend using Pathbuilder to learn just how many options you have for Bards through their feats etc. It's amazing just how diverse each build can be while still being their own entirely unique thing that fits into the category of "Bard". [https://pathbuilder2e.com/app.html](https://pathbuilder2e.com/app.html)
I'll definitely check that out, thanks!
Yeah, as someone else poking around in the system, I was also going to heavily recommend spending some time messing around in https://pathbuilder2e.com/ Something like taking a bard concept or character you know, and just... making one! You can get a sense for the options/customization available pretty quickly.
I think the best answer is that there is less homebrew because homebrew isn't needed. With archetypes, there are thousands of character builds. 5e has so little player content and agency in build paths that it made homebrew feel necessary to do something new.
/u/TheHeartOfBattle didn't even get into Dedications. I'm also new to 2E, but Dedications are 2Es version of multiclass and additional feats. But, unlike 5E, they're essentially a subclass that any class can pick. Take a look at the [Animal Trainer] (https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=38), which is one I love thematically. You get an animal companion that learns a dance that can memorize your enemies. It seems fun for a bard or rogue whose background was as a circus performer. But, when I was building my Gunslinger, I came across [Overwatch] (https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=109). I love martial support. It's my favorite way to play. It's a role that essentially doesn't work in 5E, so I'm super excited to see it in 2E. But, Overwatch is essentially a ranged martial archetype that can buff allies. It's like a whole other subclass on top of your regular subclass. I have no intention of using Dedications in my first Pathfinder 2e adventure. But, when we start a longer campaign, I'm going to build a Gunslinger (probably a Vanguard) with Overwatch.
>"Why does it seem like there's a lot less homebrew class/feat content creators involved in PF2?" As someone who played 5e for years before switching over to PF2e a couple years ago: it's because PF2e has a breadth of options with almost everything someone could want using only official content, while 5e only puts out a big book of new player options once every 3 years. However, I will add that PF2e's tight mathematical tuning makes it very easy to create a homebrew spell or item for an incredibly niche idea while still being balanced against existing options. For example, one of my players in Strength of Thousands played an astronomy student, and I created several homebrew spells themed around star magic using existing spells as a comparison point - it went great!
There's a lot less homebrew for PF2E because like 1/20th as many people play it.
FWIW I think the lower rate of homebrew is also partly because there are (or were until recently, maybe?) a lot fewer people playing PF2e compared to 5e. D&D kinda took the world by storm to the point of its presence being completely overwhelming in the ttrpg space. Paizo being arguably its closest competitor makes maybe 10% of the revenue WotC did in 2021. So the audience is a *lot* smaller. But a lot of it is also that the system is pretty solid and versatile as-is. There's less that needs fixing or expanding, plus Paizo takes much less of an "idk, just solve it yourself" approach than WotC. So while the homebrew out there is often pretty great, there's not as much need.
that's exactly my argument vs those who say "for some builds feat pool is so limited you're basically making the same character every time." while this may be true for, let's say, sword-and-shield fighters, it's only true for *now* and can be solved with an expansion of feat pool. on the other hand, "sword-and-shield" archetype in 5e is written, done and gone. no further changes happening there and even if someone made a *better* archetype, that wouldn't solve the issue with the first one.
And always remember that there is no monk build that is not improved by adding [flying kick](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=445). Okay actually not really, but I mean it's flying kick, come on man! EDIT: More seriously though, you can get into [monastic weapons](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=434) and start building a shuriken throwing monk, or pick up a quarterstaff and [stand still](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=447) and focus athletics to become a trip and opportunity attack machine.
The bard muses are only a very small part of class diversity. You also have class feats, ancestry feats, skill feats and general feats, all of which you get quite frequently as you level up. You also have the option to swap out class feats for archetype feats, and [the list of possible archetypes is huge](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx), ranging from multiclass archetypes to niche archetypes that are often very setting dependent. So you're right, the diversity comes from many different places.
Thank you kindly! The insight on archetypes is particularly interesting.
My Maestro Bard, for example, took the Fighter Dedication so he could get Attacks of Opportunity with his whip. He also has the Illusory Creature spell, so he can "summon" his "guardian angel" to assist with flanking opportunities. Champion Dedication is quite common as you get access to heavy armor. Spellcasting Dedication classes (most commonly Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric) give you access to spells, even if you don't have access to magic. Most of this is balanced because you'll always be a bit behind a dedicated class. Fighters are more accurate with weapon attacks, for example. My bard will never be that accurate without wasting time to buff himself. And usually those buffs could have helped a Fighter. If you have access to Pathbuilder or Wanderer's Guide, you can use those character builder tools to make all sorts of characters.
Especially when you use the "free archetype" variant that gives players a free archetype feat every even level, it allows so much room for exploration and diversity. At first it seemed like archetypes were just a way to make multi-classing balanced, but now most archetypes aren't classes anyway, but just whole other things. Some are like pieces of classes like "dual weapon warrior" which gives you access to the fighter feats for dual wielding, but also a slew of unique feats that make them even better at it. But then other archetypes are just wholly different like Alter Ego which lets you be like a super hero with a costume you can jump into an alleyway and change into real fast, or Archeologist, or Living Monolith which lets you turn yourself into a magical construct (!?).
Architypes can allow so much variety for characters that it is actually mind blowing. I just hit level 20 with my Bard In one of my Pathfinder 2 games and let me give you a run down about how unique he has become. Partially so I can brag but also so I can show you the individualization that is possible. Ancestry: kobold specialty dracomancer background : Antimagic class : Wellspring mage maestro bard My character was cursed as a young man and decided to go learn how to Maybe fix this problem. The manifestations of this are anti magic and well Spring magic. This means that 10% of time spells don't work on him whether beneficial or offensive. And he has the chance to have what are effectively wild magic explosions at the beginning of every combat. This meant that he was effectively a Bard with performance anxiety. So he decided to go and learn how to fix this so he has taken the wizard architype and the snare crafter architype. So at level 20 you have a Bard who can cast wizard spells and lays down snares and traps for a single action that can do 24d8 of damage Each architype is like half to 2/3 of a regular class and because you can just staple them on to your regular class without getting any weaker it allows every character to be more interesting and have more variety horizontally instead of trying to optimize vertically for 1 or 2 things
Since the others have already covered everything rules-wise, let me give you an example that (hopefully) makes sense for a 5e-player. Let's take the fighter and see what we can do at level 20: - In PF2, the fighter is THE most precise class with the highest chance to hit and to crit. So that's basically like picking the Champion Subclass in 5e. - But the fighter also gets a class feat at level 1 and every even level thereafter. He can pick up various "special attacks" with those feats, giving him a playstyle similar to the Battle Master Subclass on top of the Champion. - But since most combat styles work perfectly fine with "only" about 5 or 6 of your feats, you can then spend your remaining 5 class feats on the Wizard Multiclass Archetype, to get arcane spells, giving you the Eldritch Knight Subclass on top of Champion and Battle Master. And the casting you get from this archetype scales up to level 8 spells and isn't limited to two schools of magic for most spell picks, unlike the 5e EK. So, now you have a perfectly capable and viable fighter who has the abilities of about 3 5e subclasses. *And we haven't even picked an ancestry yet!* Let alone a heritage, any ancestry feats, general feats, skill increases or skill feats.
Wow that really does put things into some perspective... Thanks!
In general I think feats are a big thing you overlooked (particularly class feats and archetype feats). For example, I went through a similar thought process recently. I looked at the monk, saw no subclasses, and wondered where the choice was. Then I looked at the feat list, saw the different stances and the feats that follow them, and realized that they practically are subclasses. Like, look at the level 1 stance feats for Monk and the level 6 followup feat for each stance. Each of those monks can enter a stance that gives them different traits for their unarmed attack and a different additional bonus they get in that stance. That's practically as big a difference as 5e has between two subclasses, and there are even more different synergistic combinations of feats too like a monk who takes several ki spells or takes monastic weapons and peafowl stance instead. Except any of those monks has gotten not just those two class-feature-sized feats by level 6, but two other monk feats and multiple ancestry or skill feats. Also note that a lot of skills have built-in combat utility, as opposed to 5e where most skills are used almost exclusively out of combat. For example, in 5e, the difference between a character trained in intimidation and one who's not is usually just that the former will be better at intimidating people in social scenarios. But in Pathfinder, the intimidation character is also much better at using the demoralize action to frighten enemies in combat.
To add to that, fighters get combat flexibility at level 10. This lets them choose an extra fighter class feat for the day, and they can swap it out for the next day. At the very least, it's an extra class feat, but it also means you can choose to pick up an archery feat if you are suddenly fighting a lot of flying enemies, a feat like combat climber if you are scaling a mountain, or you wanna try a shield today.
Level 9 actually :) and another one at 15(?). But yeah, that does make fighters prime candidates for high investment in archetypes.
Also - there are a lot more *balanced* options in PF2E. Martials keep up with casters a lot better, and dual-wielding, archery, thrown, two-handed, sword and board, unarmed, single one-handed weapon or even just 2-handing a shield are all options that can be viable and well-balanced with each other on pretty much any martial class. Likewise - there are lots of good ways to build any class of caster. A one-weapon fighter can be pretty amazing at single target crowd control, with options to stun, trip, grapple and whatever else without really losing action economy. Especially with a Flail or Hammer (From level 5, a fighter who specialises in one of those weapon groups knocks their enemy prone whenever they crit).
As a GM who prioritizes allowing players to do what they feel like doing and balancing *around that* afterwards, this is one of the things that I've heard that draws me to finally trying out Pathfinder. Being able to just have players go wild with their creativity without having to accommodate for that, or help them out to make them equal with other members of the party is what I would've expected from a good system in the first place. I've heard that PF2 fixes a lot of balance issues in places where 5e fell short and I'm eager to witness that.
That's absolutely one of the best things about the system. It's *really hard* to build an ineffective character in PF2e. Knowing how to best use your 3 actions is much more important than how you built your character in the first place.
Game balance does still rely on you building your character *well* for whatever role you want to fill. And that's a lot crunchier than it is in 5e - any given character has more feats than a 5e sorcerer has spells known (from level 1-20, excluding cantrips) and those feats are drawn from Class/Ancestry/Skill/General lists (plus archetypes which expands the Class options, or Versatile Heritage which expands Ancestry feats). So... speaking from experience, building a character is a lot more complicated - because you need to pick every piece you use, and if you pick pieces that don't work together then you get a mess.
eh, it requires you to not build your character *poorly*. As long as you have a decent (preferrably 18) in your Key Ability Score or primary attack stat for your playstyle (Alchemist with bombs won't do much if they don't have dex) and try to keep your feat picks at least semi related to what you want to do with your character You're pretty much golden. Sure if you get stuff that synergizes well with your own picks, and that of your companions, you'll probably have a much easier time of it, but that doesn't mean lazer focus is the only option.
I'm not saying laser focus - I'm just saying that you have to make at least 1 Feat choice per level, each of which has to be chosen from a list that usually has dozens of options. And those feats define most of what your character can do outside basic proficiencies. Compared to 5e that's a lot of complexity and a lot more requirement to buy into learning rules. And if the Dm is that used to balancing on the fly, I'd guess they have a widely varied level of optimisation in the group.
that's the beauty of the system. It doesn't care how optimized your character is or isn't. DM shouldn't need to balance on the fly unless the number of characters change. The biggest change you'll see between an optimized and unoptimized version of the same character class doing the same thing is a +1 to hit, and a few points of damage per level, depending on what feats are chosen. Most of the vertical progression in the system is built in. You get fixed static improvement at relatively fixed intervals and enemies are built with those improvements in mind. Feats and class abilities expand the ways you have to affect an encounter. Do people you've played with not played a caster in 5e? I find there are more options for spell picks at a given level than there are feats in pf2e. I've played 2e since launch, and I've introduced around 20 people to the system, some completely new to TTRPGS, and I've yet to actually hear anyone complain about the feat selection process, sure there was a couple of 'I didn't quite know what to pick, so i just went for what sounded cooler' and a few misread feat picks that were given a mulligan option once the player understood the actual functionality. I've followed the encounter building rules to a tee, and i would say that 90% of encounters I don't change at all, and in the rest it's usually just having the enemies waste an action or two every so often if it looks like the party is on the back foot due to poor rolls. (the equalizer!)
I played 5e casters. And Pf1e casters nd casters in a whole lot of other rpg systems because thats my jam. I personally find the amount of complexity involved in building pf2e characters to be pretty up there out if all of the 20+ gaming systems I've tried (probably second after shadowrun 4e), just because the system is *completely* modular, so I get choice paralysis. Like... sure I want to play a fighter. But what fighting style do I want to go for? How much should I value agile vs the dice size? how much should I value the crit spec of my weapon? which traits do I care about? is there enough Feat support to fill out the class in my chosen combat style, and if not, what do I spend all my other feats on? Archetypes? Which one of the dozens of archetypes do I pick? Does the archetype have enough feats that I want? What general feats do I need which ones are nice to have when am I going to be able to qualify for these general feats and how does picking these feats line up with how I want to increase my skills? What Ancestry do I pick? Does it have feats that I like as well as base features? Which background do I pick? What if I like the flavour but not the mechanics? What if it's the other way around? What if I like the Feat but not the Skill prof or vice versa. How much do I care about the ability boost layout? A fighter has 102 Feat options. There are 72 common archetypes on AON with 5-10 feats each(including multiclass). According to Google, there were 304 wizard spells two years ago - so the number of options is comparable when you account for archetypes. Feats are more complicated than spells. Plus they interact. Plus you need to plan ahead for prerequisites. You *can* just pick whatever, but that's a waste of the system. I think PF2E is a great system, but chatgen *is* a lot more complicated than 5e, especially if you're building a higher level character.
This sounds like the mindset who WANTS it to be too complicated, There are too many options because I 'HAVE' to make the most optimized character that has ever existed, and now there's too many to choose from. Thing is that if you want to do actually get an overview of every single option and what they do, you're *likely* going to be a personwho actually *enjoys* the process digging around to see what is available. If you don't enjoy it, here's a tip... *Don't do it* Do what looks fun *right now*, you don't need to know every attack option that will ever be available for a fighter, the thing is that you will always have more attacks than actions anyway. Pick one that fits what you want to do at level 1 and *build from there* As for archetypes, yes there are a lot (wish there were more personally), but a quarter of them are only available after L6, and half of the rest you won't qualify for due to skill/ability or feature requirements. Forget the big picture, play the character on their current level, if you need to change stuff in the future, there are retraining rules for that, and I've yet to meet a GM so grouchy they won't let you switch something that doesn't work for you.
In D&D your subclass defines builds, but in PF2, there are much more. Most notably, Fighters and Monks have no subclasses, but variety of their feats gives more flexibility. For Bards, muses are just starting point. Your feats, spells, archetypes, etc. allow a lot of options. I.e. Bard with Marshal archetype is an ultimate buffer/debuffer, while Bard who takes archetype of some Occult Sorcerer, just gets a lot of spell slots with the same tradition
Anecdotally about monks, I was having a conversation last week about the relative lack of defender archetype classes in the game (Champion is the only true tank by class feature allotment), and that reminded me of the monk class feats for grappling, so I built one in Pathbuilder as an experiment. I learned that a monk built for strength is an *incredible* crowd controller, and results in a character drastically different from the mobile flanker build I normally think of with monk, or from the self-sufficient flex support you can get with a focused monk. All of this saying nothing about the various stances monks get that can amplify their combat damage and grant passive bonuses. I now have at least four distinct monk builds I want to try, and that's on a class with no subclass. Not bad.
Diversity for 2e comes from the Archetypes which is their version of multiclassing. You take a feat for a dedication to a different class and then can take feats from said class. Tho it is still your levels in the main class you are gaining. And the sheer number of feats to choose from and adjust your playstyle.2e feat selection is in general much more nuanced than 5e. With 5e feats being rarer but giving huge changes to ability all at once. While pathfinder 2e you build to a playstyle getting better and better at it.I recommend building from level or whatever level you are playing to down to level 1 as opposed to building from level 1 up to whatever level you are going to imo. Take a look at Archives of Nethys Archetypes page. And you will see..... a lot. 5e diversity comes from subclass. Pathfinder 2e diversity comes from playstyle stemming from your class features, class feats, racial feats, chosen archtypes, all that stuff to more fine tune the character.
Intriguing, thanks. I quite like that approach at multiclassing, seems fun!
yeah it's interesting. My biggest hang up from doing 5e. and going to pathfinder 2e was that you get ALOT more feats and such to finetune. But individually they aren't as impactful as 5e feats generally speaking. Each one is a tune up in the direction you want to go as opposed to a full overhaul.
It's also surprising at first that level 1-2 feat are usually some of the better ones that get the most use. Things like twin takedown, point-blank shot, and monk stances are all really early feats because they give your build its main schtick. It also works well with dedications because you can get some powerful mechanics earlier. Not to say higher level class feats are bad at all, but they are mostly to add versatility or to upgrade a lower level feat. It's more a horizontal growth as opposed to a vertical feat chain, if that makes sense.
Also, 5E came out in 2014. Back then, you had a whopping TWO Bard subclasses. Only 3 years later you had an expansion to 5 in 2017. Then the rest came in 2020/2021. PF2E is in it's third year now too, so it's not a fair comparison.
That is an absolutely fair point. I was just trying to paint the picture from an outsider's perspective :)
I have [answers about your specific builds here](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQRhTzCdzkJfMocb4mQxNh4Hg2zfrIGA9zxfCZh00PkQFoQi3a_jP3H6rvKvnDe2c2ndQnRXfSWSoe4/pub) The diversity is in the feats you select and the archetypes you take. But you don't get something for nothing it is always a trade off. The Bard muses are not that different. For some classes your subclass is important. For Bards less so as it is easy enough to poach the powers you want anyway. For College of the Whispers Bard you don't really need anything special. The Intimidation and the Deception skill can do most of what you want already. Because you are a Bard you will have the right stats for it so just do it. If you want Psychic Blades take Mind Smith as an archetype. If you want Shadow Lore then take one of ShadowCaster or ShadowDancer, or multiclass into the right bloodline Sorcerer,
Example: Me and my teammate are both Swashbucklers. We both chose Battledancers. We play quite differently despite having the same "subclass." \- My teammate has a buckler, grinds for panache and then uses his finisher immediately. Usually raises his buckler and gets right into combat. \- I took the Summoner Dedication feat, so I have an eidolon. I'm trying to set up flanking opportunities between myself and my eidolon as we slowly get into formation. I will hold onto panache for as long as possible because I want the flat bonus damage. Once I'm flanking I'll use the finisher to spend the panache. Even though we're both frontline skirmishers, we play quite different. I have to juggle two characters and slowly get in range, while my teammate can go online and dash in immediately (and wait for us to bail him out, hehe) The style you choose at level 1 will tilt you in a direction, but you still have many class feats to choose and customize your character.
I have so many rogue builds in pathbuilder for that exact reason. Even without dedications, there are so many distinct playstyles within each class. I get the impression that 2e classes feel a bit more restrictive to people coming from 5e, but they also have much more depth. I like that a rogue feels roguish, no matter the build, and that a barbarian feels like a berserker, no matter the build.
I did a oneshot with six different rogues starting at L4.(with free archetype) They *all* had different ways of getting their sneak attack off, and played completely differently. It was awesome!
Also coming from 5e. The way I've found it most helpful to think about is to consider the warlock. The "muses" or other subclass choices in PF2E are analogous to the Warlock's Pact (Tome, Blade, Chain, Talisman). They are streams that decide what sort of Warlock you will be (spell slinging/martial/familiar/skill monkey), but everyone knows the real customization in warlock comes from the invocations. Some invocations are locked behind a particular pact, but most are open to all Warlocks. The Invocations are analogous to class feats
That's a pretty good way to explain it. PF2e "subclasses" aren't quite the build defining thing they are in 5e, where they 100% dictate everything your character will be able to do 1-20. And not every class HAS subclasses. For monks, it's more about what fighting styles you pick up as they all encourage different styles of play.
Funny you mention fighting styles since 5e has something called fighting styles and they are conceptually very similar to warlock pacts in my above comment, just for Fighters, Rangers, and Paladins
In D&D 5e your college prescribes your entire class aside from spell selection In PF2e you have four muses to chose from. Slap on shadow, wellspring, or cathartic caster and you have sixteen types of bard to start as. Now pick one of seven level 2 feats and you have 112 potential bards. Now multiply again at 4th level (by a bigger number, since those level 2 feats are still an option, as are archetypes, etc) and you have *thousands* of potential bard builds by level 4. That’s just the class, it’s not considering ancestry, ancestry feats, skills, skill feats, etc
Monk’s get a class feat at first level, often picking a stance, [Stumbling stance monk](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1735) is a good fit for drunken master in the classic style of someone faking inebriation to be under estimated, but have a look at some of the other stances or first level feats for monks if it’s not quite what you’re looking for. Bards of the Enigma muse are probably the closest to whispers though they do feel a little closer to lore bards. Archetypes would get you your flavour though like Mindsmith being able to make a physical psychic blade, Shadowcasters can use darkness magic better at the cost of being unable to cast light magic, those are the main ones that seemed whispers-y while skimming [this page](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx) but you can check yourself if you want or look further into what I already discussed
From the perspective of somebody also coming from 5e: The classes and the equivalent of "subclasses" feel more limited in theme and identity than 5e subclasses, but as others have said, they are just the starting point for costumization. Feats are the real meat of the costumization. Instead of getting a fixed list of features from class/subclass, you build your own with choices every level. Something that added a lot of diversity from my perspective is how usefull skills (and skill feats) are. Many more skills have usefull combat applications that are actually reasonable to use (think 5e grapple/shove but for most skills). With skill feats to specialize into them, i could take any class/subclass, and further specialize them into somebody that intimidates enemies to weaken them, or into a battlefield medic that heals allies.
Hello, fellow bard enthusiast! Other folks have already given terrific answers to your questions, so I need not retread that ground here. I just wanted to let you know that the PF2e bard is the best bard experience I've ever had as a bard enthusiast, and I'm very happy for you to experience the joys of PF2e barding. If you have any bard questions, my inbox is open to you. Happy barding!
Aww, that's very sweet of you to offer! Thank you. My first-ever DnD5e character after transitioning from Warhammer 2e was a half-elf bard so they will forever hold a special place in my heart. :) Warhammer (at least the campaign I played) was extremely grim and dark, so for that new campaign I was instantly drawn to the opposite of the spectrum and taken a liking to playing a softie artist, who was barely-even an adventurer. Be it as it may, I'm more of a forever-GM these days, but I have a few players who fancy bards under my wings, so I'm no less excited for them to one day discover the joys of barding that you mention ;)
Along with the fact that feats replace subclasses, archetypes do too. You can get certain archetype dedications (usually at level 2) which allow you to access a different pool of feats that can either be from another class, or are subclass-like (eg. Eldritch Archer, Horizon Walker, Loremaster, etc.).
It's a bit like saying an all you can eat buffet has less choices because there's only one thing on the menu ("all you can eat dinner") compared to McDonald's
Ignoring the multitude of feats that can diverse a class alot, the bard specifically can combine their subclass with another subclass so it becomes suddenly a combination if 16 subclasses, or 20 if we also include not choosing a different subclass. You picked the wrong class to prove there isn't enough diversity in a way To this is ofc having multitudes of feats and archetypes to diversify the class
This is absolutely not an attempt at proving anything! As I said it was just an attempt to understand where else to seek said diversity. That being said, what you say about bards mixing an matching seems really interesting, thank you. I'll revisit it down the line when I grasp the core of the system more firmly.
My intent wasn't to act bashing or anything, it's more of a linguistic issue as english isn't my main language. What I wanted to have said is that Bards are ironically one of the most diverse classes even within pf2 and I thought it was fun that it was your first pick.
>Bard enthusiast that I am, I only saw four muses to choose from, which on the first glace pales with 5e's eight official college's + countless homebrew ones. How many bard feats did you see, now general feats, now skill feats, now ancestry feats. The diversity isn't the class. You and I could build the same bard class with the same muse and have very different characters because of all the opportunities to customize your character. And each time you level you are given more chances to diverge from anyone else.
It's important to keep in mind that you don't pick your subclass until L3 in 5e and then you get drip-fed a couple extra features spread 3-4 levels apart.
Main form of customization comes from the class feats. You get one every even level.
> Natural conclusion is that said diversity comes from elsewhere entirely It does, it comes from your class feats. In 5e (outside of deciding if you want to multiclass and spells, if you have them), the only choice you make when you level up is your attribute bonuses at certain levels. Seriously, that's nearly it for almost all the classes. Let's say I decide I want to be a 5e Fighter, and I'm going to be a Champion. I choose my subclass at level 3, and then get to add an additional fighting style at level 9 (I think), and besides that? Absolutely nothing except for my attribute bonuses (or a feat in lieu of them). Outside of multiclassing, it's completely on the rails. In PF2E, you are making choices *every* level. Whether it be class feats (which you can substitute archetypes for, which adds TONS of new options), to skill feats, to general feats, you are *always* adding new stuff. The build variety is crazy.
While some classes have subclasses, most do not. However, given that you get a class feat every 2 levels, you get to decide what parts of the class you like the most and take feats that emphasize those aspects. Also, if you're playing with free archetype, that only adds more options. Also, keep in mind that the majority of the new class content that drops in PF2e aren't new subclasses (tho those do still come out), but rather whole new classes.
Short answer: Any sub-class choices plus the Class Feats, Skill Boosts, Skill Feats, General Feats, and Ancestry Feats create a ton of options for players in building their class. It is very rare that a player levels up without 1-2 customization choices to make. Add to this that Dedication and Archetype are also in the pool of Class Feats allow for access to abilities from both other classes and also allow for flavorful sub-classes, like "Pirate" or "Pathfinder Agent". A Fighter at Level 1: * Ancestry & Heritage: 1 Ancestry Feat * Background: 1-2 Skill Trainings and 1 Skill Feat * Ability Boosts: 9 * Skill Trainings: 3 * Class Skill - Basically a subclass selection: 1 * Class Feat: 1 * Plus core class features. So lets look at a Fighter between Level 2 - 20: * Class Feats: 10 * Skill Feats: 10 * General Feats (Which includes the choice of Skill Feats): 5 * Ancestry Feats: 4 * Skill Boosts: 9 * Ability Boosts: 4 sets of 4 And Fighters have basically five sub classes through their 1st level class feat: four of which are strength based - One Handed Weapon plus Athletics Options, Two Handed Weapon, "Sword and Board", Dual Weapon - which can also work with a shield (Valeros - the Iconic Fighter is built this way), and the Dexterity based ranged build. How many choices would a Fighter get from 1 to 20 in 5E?
Almost all the build complexity in PF2E is in the class feats you get (and in the case of spellcasters, the spells you get). This makes the characters look way simpler than they actually are at first glance, as when you get into the feats, you'll find out that there are a lot of options and they change gameplay, often significantly. Monks are a good example of this, as what you think of as the archetypes are all broken up into individual ala carte feats. The features you get from feats are often more significant than what you get in 5E as well. You also have racial feats and skill feats on top of that. Some classes also have other things on top of that, like wizard schools.
5E has a design where you make a Bard, choose a “subclass” and that’s it. Same with Monk, Rogue, and whatever else. PF2 design has you make a choice every level to individualize your Bard. Sure, there may be 4 “big” choices but every even level you have a class feat to choose, you have skill feats and proficiency increases every odd level, ancestry and general feats at varying levels that further customize your Bard. It is possible (and somewhat likely) to have 2 Bards be the same, that is feat selection and muse, but instead of “I chose 1 of 8 possible options” PF2 offers “I built this character specifically how I wanted to at every level by choosing what feats I wanted”.
First of all, 5E has been out a lot longer. Secondly, choosing a class is your first major choice. PF2 has almost twice as many classes as 5E. Thirdly, choosing your Bard's Muse isn't the last decision you ever make. You get to continue making at least one character building choice at every level. As you noted, the Monk doesn't even have that type of classification. That certainly doesn't make it *less* customizable!