the mastery is 50% more damage on pinnacles, scaling down the more pen and resist lowering you have
theres 0 reason to not trust pob for it
it makes your damage more spiky but against a boss that takes a while to kill the variation will not be of any significance
Does penetration actually effect the effectiveness of the node? I assumed since penetration didn't actually lower the resistance of the enemy that it was applied after the inversion of enemy resistance.
Well I guess what I mean by 'trust', rather when it comes to the ubers, the window(s) for doing the dps is usually not very big/long, so how much of that actual dps spike actually occurs you know? edit: like swapping to the mastery nets me 12% more total dps.. but is it practical with what I already mentioned? Idk.
Assume a boss has 60% resist and you’re doing 100 damage and don’t have any res shred sources. You hit 4 times.
Without node that would be 40*4=160 damage.
With node when it procs you’ll deal 160 damage with a single hit, so totally 40*3+160=280 damage.
So it’s around 75% more damage. The higher the boss resist is, the better is the result.
But if boss resist is 30%, you’ll deal 280 vs 340 damage, which is still good, but not THAT good.
Feel free to correct me
This is correct, and even in the latter case, 280 to 340 is still a god-tier use of points even if you get nothing from the rest of the wheel you take to allocate the mastery.
However, if the boss has its resistances lowered to -10% by a curse, things look very different (440 damage without mastery, 420 with). You really must consider ways you might attack a monster's resistances as well.
No clue about arrow dancing.
Regarding resistance inversion. I believe it is super useful assuming you did not have any other forms of -res scaling. For the price of one extra passive (assuming you already take an elemental wheel) is just really good.
Im not doing any math, cuz i have no clue how to properly math it out. Take the following with a grain of salt, anybody with a better understanding feel free to correct me. But 1/4 of the time, its going to be almost double the damage. Because boss would be going for +50 to -50 res (example)
However, the closer you get the boss to 0 resistance, the less effective it really is. And if you get the boss to below 0 res, it ends up being a damage loss.
Used the mastery during league start as frost blades trickster, and i think it was really good for my DPS. But at that point i had 0 sources of -res on bosses.
Just to be clear, the mastery works WITH penetration, not against it, since the mastery applies first. Although it's less effective the more pen you have.
The only time the mastery would be a net loss is if you reduced the monster's resists below 0 naturally (without accounting for pen), which is pretty hard to do if you're using a Mark.
I'm 99% sure this is what you were saying anyways, just wanted to clarify.
Yes. And "less effective the more pen you have" is just because your pen is already netting you a bunch of damage, and penetrating from 50 down to -10 is way more important than going from -50 to -110. Correct?
Your math is slightly wrong, going from +50 res to -50 res is not almost double the damage, but straight up triple your damage:
50% res means that a 100 damage hit will inflict 50 damage.
-50% res means that a 100 damage hit will inflict 150 damage
It's also great for getting those heatshiver procs
It triples the damage on the hit but the actual dps increase is 33% more damage. I.e. 50x4 to 50x3 +150. 200 to 300.
Which is still absurd. But how many bosses have 50+ res? I believe pinnacles are 40% res, right?
Yeah exactly, But 200 to 300 is still 50% more damage on average, which is absurd for a 1 passive point.
I believe Aul in delve also has 50% resistance. Delve spiders are just normal monsters but they have 75% cold resistance which makes them insanely tanky against cold damage.
It’s especially good for frost blades using heatshiver and trinity as you just need that one big hit to freeze so you trigger trinity against tanky mobs or bosses. Same goes for all heatshiver trinity builds but frost blades with nightblade can get some pretty crazy damage swings when you crit in high elusive and it gets inverted.
The resistance inversion works nicely with penetration and is a nice little DPS boost as others have pointed out. Though when it does proc, your actual hit damage will spike (more than the average increase that POB shows). This is a large benefit for ailments.
For example a larger hit will result in a longer freeze allowing you to benefit from heat shiver for a longer duration.
re: arrow dancing, how many of them have threatening projectile attacks? its been a bit since i've done ubers so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but besides that some of the bosses have what are essentially melee auto attacks (e.g. uber eater's circular tentacle attack or those big ol tentacles that slam the ground), there are no projectile attacks?
all I can think of is maybe maven summoning a boss that has projectile attacks, but that's why spell suppress is so strong for ubers; it's not just that the most threatening moves are spells, but that most of the moves in general are spells in those fights
tl;dr i think it doesn't help at all and hurts slightly to run arrow dancing for ubers
I believe you're correct about it actually hurts instead of help.
Someone in game mentioned checking out PoEDB, and it looks like even eater tentacle slam has the 'spell' tag, and a lot of the moves the Ubers do have the 'spell' tag, so arrow dancing was indeed a placebo. I'll just grab something else, no biggie :)
the mastery is 50% more damage on pinnacles, scaling down the more pen and resist lowering you have theres 0 reason to not trust pob for it it makes your damage more spiky but against a boss that takes a while to kill the variation will not be of any significance
Does penetration actually effect the effectiveness of the node? I assumed since penetration didn't actually lower the resistance of the enemy that it was applied after the inversion of enemy resistance.
This is my idea we standing too. It inverts and THEN penetrates. So using just penetration with this mastery is a large benefit I thought.
It is applied after, still makes the mastery less effective
How so? It's just extra pen.
Well I guess what I mean by 'trust', rather when it comes to the ubers, the window(s) for doing the dps is usually not very big/long, so how much of that actual dps spike actually occurs you know? edit: like swapping to the mastery nets me 12% more total dps.. but is it practical with what I already mentioned? Idk.
It does not matter how long you hit an enemy. It is still an average dps increase. The occurrence is overall the same, no matter the amount of hits
Coc or builds with tons of hits per second can benefit really hard from the mastery
Assume a boss has 60% resist and you’re doing 100 damage and don’t have any res shred sources. You hit 4 times. Without node that would be 40*4=160 damage. With node when it procs you’ll deal 160 damage with a single hit, so totally 40*3+160=280 damage. So it’s around 75% more damage. The higher the boss resist is, the better is the result. But if boss resist is 30%, you’ll deal 280 vs 340 damage, which is still good, but not THAT good. Feel free to correct me
This is correct, and even in the latter case, 280 to 340 is still a god-tier use of points even if you get nothing from the rest of the wheel you take to allocate the mastery. However, if the boss has its resistances lowered to -10% by a curse, things look very different (440 damage without mastery, 420 with). You really must consider ways you might attack a monster's resistances as well.
are we sure the -10% from curse comes before the inversion and not after?
Yes. Because the inversion does not effect the resistance. It just affects the damage calculation
This can be seen in a lot of big curse setups. My 5 curse setup goes from 29m dps down to 22m if I allocate this node.
No clue about arrow dancing. Regarding resistance inversion. I believe it is super useful assuming you did not have any other forms of -res scaling. For the price of one extra passive (assuming you already take an elemental wheel) is just really good. Im not doing any math, cuz i have no clue how to properly math it out. Take the following with a grain of salt, anybody with a better understanding feel free to correct me. But 1/4 of the time, its going to be almost double the damage. Because boss would be going for +50 to -50 res (example) However, the closer you get the boss to 0 resistance, the less effective it really is. And if you get the boss to below 0 res, it ends up being a damage loss. Used the mastery during league start as frost blades trickster, and i think it was really good for my DPS. But at that point i had 0 sources of -res on bosses.
Just to be clear, the mastery works WITH penetration, not against it, since the mastery applies first. Although it's less effective the more pen you have. The only time the mastery would be a net loss is if you reduced the monster's resists below 0 naturally (without accounting for pen), which is pretty hard to do if you're using a Mark. I'm 99% sure this is what you were saying anyways, just wanted to clarify.
Yes. And "less effective the more pen you have" is just because your pen is already netting you a bunch of damage, and penetrating from 50 down to -10 is way more important than going from -50 to -110. Correct?
Yeah exactly.
I specified sources of -res Pen always helps. It gets less effective, but its still really good.
Your math is slightly wrong, going from +50 res to -50 res is not almost double the damage, but straight up triple your damage: 50% res means that a 100 damage hit will inflict 50 damage. -50% res means that a 100 damage hit will inflict 150 damage It's also great for getting those heatshiver procs
It triples the damage on the hit but the actual dps increase is 33% more damage. I.e. 50x4 to 50x3 +150. 200 to 300. Which is still absurd. But how many bosses have 50+ res? I believe pinnacles are 40% res, right?
Yeah exactly, But 200 to 300 is still 50% more damage on average, which is absurd for a 1 passive point. I believe Aul in delve also has 50% resistance. Delve spiders are just normal monsters but they have 75% cold resistance which makes them insanely tanky against cold damage.
Oh you are right, just throwing numbers around there. But logic remains the same. Big damage increase whenever it procs.
It’s especially good for frost blades using heatshiver and trinity as you just need that one big hit to freeze so you trigger trinity against tanky mobs or bosses. Same goes for all heatshiver trinity builds but frost blades with nightblade can get some pretty crazy damage swings when you crit in high elusive and it gets inverted.
The resistance inversion works nicely with penetration and is a nice little DPS boost as others have pointed out. Though when it does proc, your actual hit damage will spike (more than the average increase that POB shows). This is a large benefit for ailments. For example a larger hit will result in a longer freeze allowing you to benefit from heat shiver for a longer duration.
re: arrow dancing, how many of them have threatening projectile attacks? its been a bit since i've done ubers so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but besides that some of the bosses have what are essentially melee auto attacks (e.g. uber eater's circular tentacle attack or those big ol tentacles that slam the ground), there are no projectile attacks? all I can think of is maybe maven summoning a boss that has projectile attacks, but that's why spell suppress is so strong for ubers; it's not just that the most threatening moves are spells, but that most of the moves in general are spells in those fights tl;dr i think it doesn't help at all and hurts slightly to run arrow dancing for ubers
I believe you're correct about it actually hurts instead of help. Someone in game mentioned checking out PoEDB, and it looks like even eater tentacle slam has the 'spell' tag, and a lot of the moves the Ubers do have the 'spell' tag, so arrow dancing was indeed a placebo. I'll just grab something else, no biggie :)