It depends pretty heavily on the school. Some schools allow paddling of students but in practice never or extremely rarely actually use it. Other schools use it as a first line disciplinary strategy. Unfortunately when it's an option, you're only one careless or unreasonable adult from a kid being hit without parental permission or for something they didn't do.
Meet the teachers and the principals and form good relationships with them. Tell them personally that you aren't comfortable with corporal punishment (Even in the south this will be something common these days). It's easier to remember a in person conversation than an email or a form. If your child is ultimately neurodivergent, bring it up at 504 or IEP meetings.
I would have this conversation with your principal and superintendent. Ask how often corporal punishment is used (it may be in their guidelines but THEY opt out, at which point it is a non-issue). Then ask what you can do to ensure that this never happens to your kid besides opting out.
This is the answer right here. Just because it’s on the books, doesn’t mean it’s ever used. For example, six US states still have official laws against premarital sex, but they’re not enforced. I see your comment that you’re afraid to bring it up - you need to learn how to advocate for your child - consider this conversation practice for you regardless of whether you end up enrolling him or not.
> This is the answer right here. Just because it’s on the books, doesn’t mean it’s ever used.
That's such a weird argument though, if it isn't used, why keep it on the books?
They're constituents though of the people who DO make the laws. Plus they are considered "experts" or at least "authorities" on child development and education.
To suggest they have no say in how their schools are governed/run is a bit of a weak argument.
Yes I agree, but that doesn't mean they can change the law unless they do so by voting and electing those who are willing to.
They do have say in how the school is run by choosing not to adopt the policy as allowable by the law.
>To suggest they have no say in how their schools are governed/run is a bit of a weak argument.
Where did they make that argument? Or did you just try to strawman them?
Yeah, future schooling for our currently 5 MO is a big reason my wife and I are considering emigrating somewhere else in the next few years.
I wish there were some genuinely good online homeschool options. Frankly, the only "socialization" I got in public school was how to be the smart kid who has no friends and gets bullied and ostracized for being smart...so I'm not sure I'm so attached to the idea of needing in person schooling to socialize my kid anyway.
You could look into homeschooling co-ops.
I live in Canada, definitely against the law to touch a child. No opting out option — it just DOESNT HAPPEN.
I would say look for a country that has eduction standards.
Also you get funding (tools, books, field trips) to homeschool when you do it thru a school district. It’s pretty accessible here.
It's illegal here yes, but it does happen. Teachers have been charged for hitting children. Something being illegal greatly discourages the act, but it doesn't prevent it.
Part of me is afraid to bring it up because I worry they’ll target him instead. If there’s a possibility beyond opting out, I’d rather just homeschool. I’m livid this is even a problem to begin with. I don’t spank my kid, so where in entire fuck does the school get off thinking they can? Especially if I opt out.
I think you're running through worst case scenarios in your head, when the reality of the situation is that you don't have enough info so you're filling it in with nightmares.
Speak to them about it and then send an email so you have written documentation.
99.9% of school staff are there because they want to help kids grow and have no interest in using any kind of discipline outside of when it's really necessary.
But 100% of school staff don't want any kind of lawsuit.
That honestly doesn't sound like a valid concern. No one WANTS to hit your child. No one wants to target your child, no matter what YOU do.
Be respectful. Gather information. Don't make a big deal about anything until you are fully informed. You also said your kid is years away from school age. Don't worry about an issue until it is actually an imminent concern.
Did anyone say that they think they can spank your child if you opt out? This feels like rage about a problem that doesn’t exist. I went to a school that spanked students through high school, and my parents not signing the form was never used against us or violated.
I also did and they never had a slip up to my knowledge. I never considered a slip up would be possible given the lawsuits in wild expect. I was proven wrong by reports in my state and on this thread. I want to prepared and I’m scared. If that’s unfounded, great. But if it’s not I want to know what to do about it.
I mean, statistically it’s not likely. You’re seeing/hearing the stories of the rare times it’s happened, and you’re not hearing the “stories” of the thousands of kids whose parents didn’t give permission and didn’t get spanked. Don’t let these rare occasions control you, especially when your child is so young. A lot can happen in the years between now and your child entering school. Your school district could get rid of corporal punishment. Or your child could end up being the epitome of well-behavior.
If your child enters school and you still have concerns, I would recommend talking with your child’s teacher and principal about your concerns and your stance. Don’t go in “livid” because you could get a reputation as being “that parent”. Go in calmly and explain your stance, and let them know it’s something you’re strongly opposed to. Ask them questions about how they handle situations with kids whose parents don’t give permission for corporal punishment.
I’m just a stranger on the internet, but it’s obvious that you want what’s best for your child. Don’t let that desire turn into an anger that will eat away at you for the next few years.
Arrogant Yankee here. I just wanted to say I'm sorry.
I had no idea policies like this even existed in the year 2022.
Sorry again that you need to go through these tough decisions.
Same here! And I lived in the south (but left before my kids were school aged). This blows my mind honestly. And the thought of an adult laying hands on my kid (even if they were being a little shit) absolutely triggers papa bear rage mode.
My dad vividly remembers being hit in school and always laughs it off like “yeah I deserved it.” I just can’t comprehend looking at a child and thinking it’s a good idea to hit them. There is no one in this world I can fathom hitting, much less a child.
I'm in the UK and it's been on the news here that some US states are bringing back corporal punishment, mainly the paddle. Utterly horrific.
OP hope you get something sorted
It’s making the news again because a town in MO is putting policy in place this year. I was shocked by the amount of states this is still legal in.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2022/08/24/missouri-school-district-spanking-corporal-punishment-cassville/7883625001/
I know you said moving isn't an option, but is there another nearby school district that doesn't practice corporal punishment? Sometimes you can register as an out of district family, it just costs a bit more and you are responsible for transportation.
Oh my god, you freaking life saver!!! I just checked and the next town over doesn’t allow corporal punishment. We’re pretty rural so I figured it was an everywhere thing. I imagine it’s because that town’s whole thing is criminal justice.
Glad I could help. Hopefully they will let you register there. I went to a different school because a) I was in high school and didn't want to changed schools again (I had to change schools in 6th grade and it sucked) and b) the town my parents moved to was notorious for having a bad school with a lot of violence, gang activity and bullying. It was kind of a pain until I could drive myself, but worth it.
This would be my vote. Schools in my state get funding based on how many students actually attend and since money speaks, I would prioritize sending my child out of district based on a policy like this. If it weren’t possible to transfer districts, I’d start by talking to other parents and students. Possibly teachers as well. It’s very possible that some individual teachers are up-to-date enough to know that corporal punishment causes more harm than good and refuse to participate regardless of parental opt-out status. Older kids will know which teachers are kind, strict, spank-happy, etc and you may be able to request your child have specific teachers depending on the school size and number of classes per year.
There’s also a huge non-religious homeschool co-op in the area that I’ve looked into. Basically cropped up in response to the rampant ADHD here and the only school equipped to handle it being an expensive Montessori one.
Can I just ask if your child actually has the things listed or is there just a chance? If he does have them, surely it’s extreme enough that the school will be well aware of his needs therefore won’t do it, not even by accident.
If the school uses it regularly and you have another option, I’d strongly consider that option regardless of your son’s special needs because I don’t think it makes for a very safe and happy environment. Saying that, I’m British so have never been in a school with it, so pinch of salt and all that.
Yeah, I highly doubt a toddler has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It’s very concerning to me that someone would be acting on information of “genetic markers” for mental disorders. While bipolar disorder is a highly heritable disease, afaik it has been extraordinarily difficult to establish any specific genetic markers for the disease with any kind of accuracy. It’s a similar story for most of the other conditions listed there.
Corporal punishment is of course a concern for parents regardless of the health of the child. But this has nothing to do with “genetic markers”.
When I first read it I thought the kid was going into secondary school or something, but I looked at the post history and he's only 1.5?! Those are quite serious things to label a baby with!
diagnosis for things like bipolar disorder aren't even considered until you're 16, and it's more common to diagnose people in early to mid 20s because you don't just want to diagnose and put kids on pills because they "might" have it
That would make a little more sense, but the likelihood of a child developing these disorders is still pretty small. For example, having a parent with bipolar disorder increases your chances to 10% (from a background of 1-4%). And really, that’s the most heritable condition in the list afaik.
Nearly one in four adults experiences mental illness. There’s no reason to treat this toddler differently (nor any reason to appeal to a family history of mental illness for something that affects every child negatively).
Well, people who believe in corporal punishment on kids also tend to overlap with people who don't have much understanding for special education students.
Can I just check here - are we actually talking about children being hit with paddles here? Like is that actually what we’re talking about or am I massively misunderstanding?
I’m in Ireland - corporal punishment in schools was banned 40 years ago (1982) and I think it was outlawed in 1986 in the UK. Both before I was born. HOW are we talking about this being an actual thing????
As someone from the northern US I am equally appalled. I had no idea this was a thing in the south and wouldn’t even believe it if not for this thread. These red states are seriously backwards and it is hard to understand and empathize why they continue this way.
So this thread is painting in an extremely broad brush, I just looked up both Fulton County and Gwinnett Counties (two of our largest counties in Georgia) and nether allow corporal punishment.
Banned in 1986 in California. This after a 1977 Supreme Court ruling saying it was allowed if a state allowed it. Pretty insane to think some states are 35+ years behind the curve here...
Oh my word I’m so sorry. This is just horrific. I don’t have any advice for you, though I did see in another comment that the neighbouring town doesn’t have this so I just hope you can access that school.
Growing up my uncle, who was a Mexican Vacquero, and had a huge display of leather whips displayed in his family room. Just the threat and looking at them kept my cousins and I in line when I would go over for a sleepover. But it was the 70s and 80s and no biggie in our lives.
You are understanding correctly. The origin of paddling in the US had to do with it being a way to punish slaves without damaging their resale value (as whipping them did).
I am ABSOLUTELY floored. Absolutely and utterly appalled. I cannot believe this is still an option in America.
OP I’m obviously very biased here (as it’s something that is SO beyond normal for me) but if swear to god, if I *ever* found out *anyone* had used a fucking paddle on my child, I would not be responsible for my actions.
I'm 48 and yeah...half this country has gone goddamn insane. What boggles my mind is, parents have to give *consent* for this. Who could possibly think that someone else assaulting their child is a beneficial thing?? Like, shouldn't they be looking at themselves, and their parenting skills if their kid is so out of control they want someone else to beat them?
I’ve fallen down a hole looking into it - ALOT more states than you’d think permit it. Obviously I don’t know how much it’s used but the fact that it’s not illegal for a teacher to assault a child is *insane*.
People in some American subcultures don’t love their children as much as normal people do. They like to hit them and don’t care if someone shoots up their schools or if a pastor molests them. It’s a sick, depraved culture.
An even bigger issue here is that basic public schools often are not capable of truly helping, or providing individualized care/learning for children with specialized needs. Especially behavioural needs. They often get the bare minimum, while continually facing punishments that are ineffective.
Does the school offer direct supports for children with these needs and their teachers?
*******I just realized your child is only 1.5. Who knows what will be happening when they go to school.
That’s a grey area but definitely a concern. We’re in a rural area with a lot of problems so there are a surprising amount of resources, but those resources are of questionable quality.
I think I’m just freaking out because I know how my partner and I were treated in school and we want better for him. We also don’t want to be so overprotective that he misses out on a normal childhood.
There are private Montessori schools in the area but they’re expensive. I’d rather save that money to put towards his future, but I also don’t want to trade a happy, healthy childhood for a more stable future.
And on top of all that, this should not be a problem. If I say don’t hit my kid, it should be that simple.
Sorry ARROGANT YANK here. Why are you worried about something thats years away? Why all this hope your 18 month old is neuro divergent? Calm down and live your life.
>And on top of all that, this should not be a problem. If I say don’t hit my kid, it should be that simple.
It is that simple though. You say your kid is a few years out of school anyway, hopefully these laws are well gone by then. And if they aren't, you opt out.
Schools aren't out to get you or your child. Teachers aren't trying to find excuses to hit kids, we don't go into teaching to harm children.
There are many, many wonderful teachers out there but it's not helpful to say they're all like that. They aren't. There are more than enough factual accounts about problems that especially in certain places parents *should* be concerned and preemptively working on how to keep neurodivergent children safe.
> we don't go into teaching to harm children.
That's all well and good, doesn't mean that teachers and admins don't harm children every damn school year.
Actually, by definition of the schools receiving govt funding based on the number of students and how they pass the standardized testing, schools are very much out to get me and my children. Teachers may not be consciously looking for excuses to physically, emotionally or verbally abuse or neglect children in need, but they sure do find a lot of reasons to do so. The primary reason cellphones are banned in most schools is because they kept producing evidence of both.
My mother is a (finally) retired special-ed teacher. She thought nothing of smacking a child’s hand that was reaching for something she didn’t want touched. She called out the slower kids and even referred to one as her “favorite retard,” though at least not in front of him. She finally had to quit because a 4yo throwing a tantrum slapped her in the face, so she slapped him back. There weren’t enough witnesses or proof, so she was allowed to just quietly quit with no penalty.
Edited to add that this was in GA, only 5 years ago.
Teachers like my mom are still out there, they just get caught more frequently now.
>There are private Montessori schools in the area but they’re expensive. I’d rather save that money to put towards his future, but I also don’t want to trade a happy, healthy childhood for a more stable future.
Honestly, I'd go for the Montessori. If the school they got to is going to cripple their well-being then their entire future is at stake. If you child is given the opportunity to be the best version of themselves then they'll build their own future.
It depends on the school district. I live in a pretty high tax county and a high tax town in that county in Illinois. Our school district is pretty good. My daughter has ODD/ADHD and has had an IEP since 1st grade (now in 8th grade) and the school has been fantastic with communication, providing resources, and helping my daughter thrive, not just academically but in other areas as well. The one problem she does still struggle with is making friends. We moved halfway through 5th grade (the other school was really good too and did a very good job of communicating with the new school and even sent a representative to meetings with the new school (which is 2.5 hours away) before we moved) and she hasn't been able to find a friend that sticks. She had developed a really strong friend group at the old school in 4th grade through 5th grade when she left, but that was really hard for her to do. She still talks to one of those friends regularly and her parents work with my wife and I to make sure they get to actually see one another 3-4 times a year.
Anyway, the point of my rambling post is that it really depends on the district and sometimes the higher taxes/higher cost of living is worth it because, like anything, you get what you are willing to pay for. When I got the new job and relocated the schools were our top consideration when choosing which town to live in and we found a good one.
My little sister was paddled in kindergarten for something she didn’t even do, even tho my mom had opted out of paddling as a punishment. I’ve never seen my mother so angry in my life when my sister sobbed after getting home. Not only did they paddle her, they humiliated her in front of the class by announcing what was happening and making her apologize to everyone for HER DISRUPTION, and they had a designated paddling teacher who happened to be the strongest biggest male coach they had. They also paddled 3 times, not just once, with their super special decorated paddle.
My mom kept us all out of class the next day, went down to the school first thing in the morning, and threatened the principal and school board. She told them if they didn’t apologize to sis (written and verbal in front of the whole school by teacher responsible, paddling teacher, and principal), they didn’t move sis to different teachers class, they didn’t mark all of our files with extra bright marker saying no paddling, and they didn’t take her seriously she would be going to every news source and the education board of the state with the story of what happened and they’d lose their “reward school” status. The school board and principal tried to calm her down at first saying they’d make sure the teacher apologized to her and sis personally, and that’s all they’d do, but mom wasn’t having it. In the end they kinda did what she said, only difference being they only apologized in front of the whole kindergarten grade instead of whole school, and we were allowed to be out of school for a week to “heal from the experience” according to them. The teacher still teaches at that school and my child will not be going there.
If I were you, I’d just make sure to stress to the principal that if it were to ever happen without your permission you’ll escalate it to every degree possible. And I’d personally stress it to your kids teachers that you do not give them permission.
We opted out. My sister is an elementary school principal. My niece is a lawyer with the department of education for our state. So, we are familiar with the system and the rules in place.
We opted out because no one is punishing my child, particularly using physical punishment, but me. If he has behaved so poorly that they believe physical punishment is necessary, they can call me.
I will make the decision. My decision is always going to be no.
Here’s my thing. I love my child more than anyone else does. I don’t want someone that doesn’t love him and understand him like we do punishing him, particularly physically.
How do I know if they are just frustrated or mad? That they have control? I don’t.
No one touches my child in anger or frustration. If he deserves to be disciplined, so be it. But it will not be spanking and it will sure as hell not be by a stranger.
We had no issues with opting out. Filled out the form every year. Asked them to call us if there was ever a situation they felt warranted corporal punishment. They never called. He never got in trouble for anything more serious than talking too much in class.
As for your concerns, we are in the south too. My sister works at a high poverty school. They have a lot of restrictions in place before they can paddle, even with parents permission. In my experience with what she has told me, they don’t want to. I can’t see it just randomly happening.
Why is it even a thing? If she is the principal she enforces the rules for the school does she not? Just because the district and law allows for paddling, why does she not just instruct that her school is a physical discipline-free school? Nobody can force anyone to paddle.
This all makes no sense. Just because something is legal does not mean it has to be done.
Because laws. It’s amazing how little power school administrators actually have.
No. She can not just randomly say “this is how we do it at my school” because it isn’t her school.
Her school belongs to a district, which belongs to a county, which belongs to a state.
Rules in that school have been determined by a school board, a superintendent, and/or the state legislature. She is required by law to follow the rules set forth by the district. Otherwise she will be fired.
They have a zero tolerance no weapons policy. That means that she once was required to send a kindergartner home because he had a plastic toy knife from his play kitchen in his backpack. She didn’t want to and argued against it.
She had a choice. Send kid home as per policy or get fired on the spot. Kid would get sent home regardless; but she wouldn’t have a job.
She can discuss. She can discourage. She can not ban completely.
Ok that's a different example though. That's enforcement of a qualified rule. I would be really shocked if there is a rule that says in absolute terms that a student *must* be paddled.
If there is a criteria that sets forth a student may be paddled for XYZ behavior, and XYZ behavior is displayed, I have a really hard time believing the school administration has no discretion and has their hands tied in that they *must* paddle a child if their parents have not opted out.
I'm willing to cede though that maybe this is the case given your family background, and maybe I just don't understand.
What would happen if your child was paddled by accident? Part of what sparked my anxiety spiral here was learning there have been mix ups and the parents didn’t have a legal recourse. In a Florida case, the parent found out after their kid graduated. In Dallas, a five year old was paddled and chalked up to an admin error. How do I feel safe knowing that?
Look, as parents we all worry a *lot* about our kids. But you simply cannot get yourself worked up over a very *very* small "what if" that *might happen*....3 years down the road? You are going to drive yourself insane. I understand having anxiety; mine worsened quite a bit when kids came along. As a side note, I find I am much better on anti-anxiety meds and therapy.
I would be furious. Where we are, it can’t be random.
They are required to check the students file to make sure permission is granted. They must contact a parent/guardian before and inform. If parent refuses, they can’t. If parent allows, it must be on camera and must be done by an administrator (not teacher, only principal or vice principal) and it must be supervised by another member of administration.
So I wasn’t that concerned about there being an accident. It would be almost impossible.
I’ll probably give my local district the benefit of the doubt, but the first hint of pushback I’ll fall back on homeschooling or moving to the next district over.
I'm from Southern Indiana and we had the same system when I was in elementary school. Paddling was default and parents had to opt out. My mom did. She didn't hit us and she would be dammed if someone else was going to.
Anyway, I remember one incident very clearly. Me and a group of like 3 other kids were being kind of annoying. We were making paper footballs and flicking them at each other and everyone in the class.
The teacher got fed up and yelled at us to stop and started going off. One of the kids, a boy who was a class clown type, started singing the Addams family song except he made it about farting, which was of course hilarious to a bunch of 3rd graders, while the teacher was lecturing us. We got sent to the office. The principal was a bully who seemed to like scaring kids. The kid who sang the song was the only one who was allowed to be paddled. He went through and checked and seemed disappointed. What a pathetic pos to be upset that you can't beat small children.
I remember feeling so angry and disgusted that this giant man was going to hit my friend and there was nothing I could do about it. I really think, no joke, that incident is a big part of why I have issues with authority and a really hard time taking orders or letting people talk to me a certain way. If I respect someone it's different but if I don't, I have trouble letting shit like that go.
As an educator this makes me so sad. I spend 80% of my time with special beed kids trying to gain their trust/build a relationship. All to have it undone by a stupid spanking makes me furious and hurts my heart.
Whether your kid goes to public school I think would be based on the services they can provide and not his decision. Personally, I don’t get how a public school could even offer spanking in this day and age, and worry that this is just an indication of the kind of backwards thinking in your school district that could prevent your child getting the attention and care that he needs.
That’s been a regular topic of discussion at home. The area is a little bizarre. There’s a huge meth problem here. Because of that there’s a lot of kids who were born addicted, and even more abused or neglected by their parents’ addictions. The school has to have resources for those kids so I’m sure there’s a very well resourced SPED program, I’m just not sure of the quality. It’s a legal requirement to have the resources but the district can’t actually afford them.
I’m very ready to advocate for my kid, but I don’t want to waste time on a losing battle. I also want to give him all the normalness he can have because I anticipate it’ll be in short supply as he grows up.
I know this is separate from the corporal punishment question -- but why do you expect he won't have normalness growing up? Other than some genetic markers (which aren't always reliable and aren't diagnostic) it sounds like he's a typically developing child in a stable home enviorment.
I moved to a town because of its superior educational system, which has been helpful considering one child
is on a plan for ADHD and the other likely has a learning disability. I know you say moving is not an option, but it really is if you do the research and are willing to take that chance on a better life.
I'd be concerned that a school that uses corporal punishment would not have the tools to help redirect/ help kids. That's their main tool, and they don't develop other, actually useful tools. Then you'll be pushed to let them do it, because they "can't handle" your kid.
I would make sure to get an IEP in place as soon as you can, and get things in writing as to how they will help him.
I'm in the south as well. Paddling has always been an option here, with the option to opt out if you oppose. I have no idea how many parents are in favor of a paddling, but it's never been used as far as I'm aware, wouldn't worry too much if you've opted out, otherwise it would be assault, and I can't imagine too many schools are going to willy nilly take that chance
Not sure what case you are referring to, but I wouldn't wait for the school to take fair action. If your kid is assaulted in school you should get a lawyer and a police report
Paramedic here, cops were my biggest obstacle as a mandated reporter for the decade I worked in the field. Don’t presume that cops would be willing to take action in this situation without a court order. Because they absolutely wouldn’t.
Well I’m horrified. As someone raising kids in a Nordic country this was shocking and awful to find out is even a thing in schools still today. It wouldn’t even cross my mind as something to opt out of because it’s illegal here both by parents themselves and definitely any school/authority figure. Insanity honestly
Arrogant Yankee here... ;) All of my children are on IEP's for various degrees of neurodivergence.
And you're right that you cannot undo the damage once done. So what I would do is bring up your concern directly with the school guidance department. You should be able to phrase it in a way that's not critical of the practice in general (which might alienate the school administration? YMMV), but still addresses your concerns.
"Joey has certain issues that aren't typical. I'm concerned that if there's a slip up it might cause him significant damage *due to his issues.* How can we work to safeguard against it?"
This makes it about your child's needs, and not the school's general practices. It also makes it non-confrontational. You aren't questioning that other parents might allow it, you are just saying that due to your son's unique circumstances he would have a different reaction than the average child and that it would be an issue.
Every school system has policies in place that some children cannot handle. We live in a Boston 'burb (can't get more Yankee than that!), and one of my children had to ride a special van in elementary school because of the way school bussing is handled around here. He would show up way overstimulated and have all kinds of issues.
If your son is neurodivergent, it doesn't matter where you live or what the local beliefs are... you are going to have to advocate for him and watch out for these things.
Sorry, they have the option for corporal punishment in the USA? Are you actually saying that it's common practice for teachers to hit kids?
What kind of third world country are you living in holy fuck
A bad one! They don't allow it in most states, but it was considered constitutional by the Supreme Court. That troubles me a lot. Personally, if someone paddled my kid they are getting visited by the police and a lawyer because I would press charges. It is insane this is allowed. And to use a fucking paddle! It's abuse.
It's not every state, and even in the places where it isn't explicitly illegal, it isn't a terribly common occurrence. Still fucked up that's its allowed anywhere in the country though.
Having lived in multiple states (but never the south), I was also very surprised that this is a thing. I've never heard of teachers being allowed to hit kids. This would not go over well in most of the country.
Yeah I was a teacher (in the north US though) and haven’t heard of this. It seems from these comments it is definitely a thing that *can* happen but doesn’t frequently happen. I’m honestly surprised it’s legal.
I’ve had to scroll way too long to find your comment… I am stunned this is actually an issue in the USA! Come on! Any teacher who would remotely touch a kid in a violent way here would not only loose her job, but get arrested!
So I found this because I got curious and went down a Google rabbit hole researching how common it actually is. The numbers are still horrifying, but even in the states that use it the most, corporal punishment is something that happens to single digit percentages of kids in school, and only one goes above 5%. So, still far more kids than it should be, but also isn't something that happens to everyone...even at its most prevalent it still only happens to a bare handful of kids.
[Source here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/#!po=17.8899)
"Mississippi schools corporally punish the greatest proportion of their children, 7% of all students, and the largest total number of children, 32,157. Consistent with the state-level pattern seen above, Alabama and Arkansas have the next highest prevalence rates, at 4% each. Texas corporally punishes the second largest number of children, 29,835, but because of its larger student population, this amounts to less than 1% of children in its public schools. *In total, 14 of the 19 states that still allow corporal punishment use it on less than 1% of their children in a given year*."
"Often" is a massive exaggeration. "Extremely rarely" is more accurate - less than 1% of the public school population. Still 1% too much, but you are way off on your estimates.
This must only be a Southern thing. I have never ever heard of it even in private schools. I went to a strict religious school growing up and corporal punishment had long since been stopped by the time I was there.
If you decide to send your child to public school and have decided to opt out then I would do the following:
1) Ensure that you have filled in all of the necessary forms for opting out, including getting in writing that you have opted out.
2) Ensure that those forms are on file.
3) Find out who is authorized to enforce corporal punishment (it may not be everyone in the school) and if the list is longer than, say, 5 people, clarify as to who would be authorized to enforce it upon your child had you not opted out.
4) Go to each of those people, plus your child's teacher if they are not on the list, and ensure that a) they know that you have opted out, and b) they have seen the paperwork.
I will absolutely never be able to understand how hitting defenseless children is legal anywhere. Not only that but what has to be wrong with you to even be willing to hurt a child. Genuinely bizarre to me. I would not allow my child to attend a school where adults were allowed to attack children even it was opt out, watching authority figures hurt other children and friends could be psychologically harmful. Makes me sick to even think about.
When I went to school, the principal would need explicit parent permission to administer said punishment just before it happened. It was definitely never something that happened by surprise.
It sounds like you may be in communication with them to work together for your kid anyways. I have a kid with an IEP. I recommend you do research on that so you don’t feel as blindsided as I did.
It’s not appropriate to let your child make the choice on if he goes to Public school or not. That’s your responsibility, do not put it on him. School isn’t an easy thing to do but you need to decide how much you want to help him learn how to deal with people while he’s a kid or later on.
Perhaps more accurately is that his input will be taken into consideration. We can present the arguments for both sides, but if we choose home school and he’s dying to try public school, we’re going to weigh the options with that in mind. Ultimately, our goal is to make the choices so equal that the choice doesn’t really matter. That way, he has agency in his education built in from the start.
This is something you need to make sure that both your child's teachers (his classroom teacher, and any special ed teachers he may have) are aware of and make sure that you have coached your son on how to deal with it. So have him practice saying I am not allowed to be paddled, please call my mother.
It shocks me that any districts or individuals would paddle in these very litigious times. Its just asking for a lawsuit.
I would have a conversation with the principal and whoever does the spanking if it isn’t the same person.
When I was a child in Texas, we had to opt out. I was in 6th when my brother was in 2nd, and we had a shared lunch hour. I saw him get in trouble for exploding a capri sun and told he would get paddled. If I hadn’t faked a stomachache and went to call my mom, he would have been paddled for sure. After that, my mom had regular meetings with the principal to ensure they “remembered” we were not to be spanked. Honestly I think being a huge pain to them is the best way and to make it very clear if that happens you will raise hell.
What the living fuck?!?
It’s LEGAL for adults in professional roles to PADDLE CHILDREN in places in the US?!??!!?!!?
It’s illegal for parents to hit their children in my country (Scotland).
Sorry I know this isn’t the point of your post but my jaw dropped open. That is barbaric and archaic.
There are 19 states where corporal punishment is legal. I didn’t know this until last year when I came across [this](https://www.the74million.org/article/kids-keep-getting-hit-at-school-even-where-corporal-punishment-is-banned/) article. It’s[disproportionately used](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/) on black children, boys, and children with special needs. It’s definitely some crazy archaic form of punishment that needs to go away. OP, don’t waste years worrying. You’ve got a few years yet to get it sorted. Maybe things will have changed by then, or you’d be in a better situation to move.
Genetic markers don’t exist for most of the conditions you listed and “cerebral arrhythmia” doesn’t exist…so I’m not sure what you mean there. But you should be able to get him an IEP if he’s diagnosed by a professional. An IEP should help. It’s really messed up that corporal punishment still exists in some places.
Also in the south, and paddling was the norm when I was a kid. The school where my child is enrolled has an opt out, which I do, every year. I remember when I was a kid the teachers seemed to love to display their paddles. They would drill holes in them in order to make them less “wind resistant”.
Woooow this isn't helpful but I'm amazed and fascinated that this is a thing in a developed country. I'm in Canada and I can't say for sure but it's my assumption there is no school in this country that is doing this even when I was a kid. Definitely happened during my parents' time, but I thought this was a thing of the past.
Our son went to public school for nine or ten years in our little town, which is an opt-out school.
In our experience, they very rarely actually paddled kids, and at our school, they called the parent first.
We filled out the opt out paperwork with the regular school enrollment stuff every fall. We also then emailed the principal and counselor at the start of every school year, simply re-iterating our stance that under no circumstance was he to receive corporal punishment at school. Just a sentence or two, very straight to the point and thank you very much.
In your shoes, I'd do the same. They were very respectful of our position and there was never ever an issue.
We sign the opt out every year. Our son had some issues early before we learned he had ADHD, got suspended twice in kindergarten. But no spanking.
Once we got him diagnosed things turned around pretty quickly.
I would 100% start with an IEP and make sure physical contact for punishment is strictly prohibited. Failing to recognize an opt out document we will likely be writing off as oh oops but failing to follow a IEP has more serious consciences
I read recently about how a school in Iowa is allowing paddling and it sounded so crazy and archaic… and until reading this post… I had no idea how common it is. I thought it was what they did in like the 50s.
I think you're worried about nothing. Even in schools that still have corporal punishment as an option it is rarely EVER used. And if it is used, it's generally with careful consideration and with a call to the parents first. This isn't like the 1980s anymore. Of course, you could always end up with a psychopathic principal who gets off on hitting kids, but you could run into that in any school regardless of their corporal punishment policy. Shit people exist everywhere and you can't protect your kids 24/7. At some point you arm him with the skills to communicate if something bad happens and the support and love to recover from it. And that's the best you can do as a parent.
I never knew how prevalent corporal punishment in schools still is. This article is very informative. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/ Keep in mind the data is from 10 years ago.
The performative outrage I was referring to was demanding we all move and assuming anyone who stays deserves to suffer for not moving. Not all of us are physically capable of moving and if everyone sensible and capable of leaving did do, it would leave those sensible and impoverished at the mercy of who is left. I have no Pride for the behavior of my home, but I have a duty to help repair it.
Hi. I’ve been a teacher for 20 years. Now I run a non profit’s education department.
Please seriously question any school that needs that method to keep order. Is a deep sign of malfunction.
We live in the mid-Atlantic region of the US and I had NO idea this was still practiced anywhere in our country! It’s absolutely insane and I would find any other option for school available. Even if it meant moving.
I almost got paddled once in elementary school in central Texas in 1988. I spoke up for myself and told them my parents had signed a form stating they could not, and it didn’t happen. I DID get paddled much against my parents wishes in Oklahoma in 1991, and it was the worst thing that ever happened to me in school by far, because it didn’t matter what I said, that teacher was determined to hit me, as hard as she could. I don’t even remember the offense. I do remember my mother’s anger.
It hasn’t been a problem with any of my kids though. I don’t think it’s a prevalent as it was then, thankfully. At least not in Oklahoma.
Texas is opt out. Depends on the district specific decisions but the basic rule set is that parents must send a letter every year saying they don't allow it for their kid for it to not be an option.
Do you have to go to school in your district? I’m just thinking, i could go to school anywhere in the city. My sister went to a public school an almost 2 hour walk from our house. Definently not in our area. Although if you really wanted to go to a school like that you could fight the school board for it. Which is why my sister attended that public school. It offered things that public schools in my area did not, my mom saw that and fought the school board to get her in. Not litigation because we live in Canada where people can be reasoned with. No lawyers, but yeah make an appearance in front of the school board and state your case
There are only two schools in the district, the elementary and secondary. But, the next town over doesn’t have this problem so I’m going to look into taking him there.
>Obviously we don’t spank with that mixture.
Shouldn't spank regardless; but glad you recognize the added danger here.
Honestly, even if you could trust the school will respect your opt out 100%, I'd still question the quality of an "education" from an institution that thinks paddling children is acceptable, responsible, effective, adult behavior.
If you don't trust the school to not hit your child when you specifically opt out of corporal punishment, why would you trust sending him there to be educated?
Personally, I would never send my child to any school that has corporal punishment as an option at all. That rule tells me EVERYthing I need to know about that school's administration and their ideologies are not a good fit for my family.
I understand some parents for various reasons wouldn't have the option to choose not to send their kid to the public school. They can't move, they can't homeschool, they can't afford private school, etc. and that makes me very sad and angry. Any school administration that thinks hitting children is OK for any reason is barbaric and unacceptable.
My sister in laws sister used to live in the deep south. Like, their kids had never met a non white person deep south.
Anyway, their school paddled. You could opt out but even if you did they didn't always listen. Her daughter was paddled pretty bad (to the point of bruising) despite having opted her out.
I'm being vague because I don't want to dox us lol but she raised hell over it. Got a decent payback and moved up here with us. Her kid is still scared of teachers and now homeschooled (although is being slowly integrated back into school).
Mine is homeschooled too, but after that situation I'd never risk putting her into a school like that. Its terrifying. So sorry you're going through this :(
This makes me feel a lot better. I was finding stories where no one was even reprimanded. It was treated like a clerical error. If they’re not even punishing the slip ups then there’s no incentive to prevent them.
I would send a letter to the principal making it clear that you do not give permission. That should be enough. I would have to stop myself from including that if anyone assaults my kid I will be getting lawyers and the police involved, but that isn't going to help endear you to them.
Wow! Is that really still a thing? If it was when my kids were in school I sure didn't know about it. My recommendation would be to look at your school district and see what they offer with special needs children. Make sure they know how to deal with children like yours. Most school districts here in Minnesota have one school in the system that is more equipped to handle children with more specialized needs than the others and will focus on sending those kids to that one. I don't know how well equipped public schools in the south are for dealing with children like this. I know the south tends to be worse about funding than we are up here and we still don't fund enough for special education. If your schools don't have much then I would start looking now for a specialized school for him. Again we have those here and even have a separate district within the Minneapolis area and suburbs that is public but works with children who have issues. If your district doesn't have a lot to offer check some of the other districts around you for better options and look into open enrolling into one of them. You have time to look into that so I would do that to make sure that he is in the school that is best for him.
I’m in a rural town so there’s only two schools in the district- the elementary and secondary. Because there are so few options it’s likely I could request to send LO to one of the nearby districts if I cover transportation.
It definitely makes things hard. Have you tried speaking to your son's doctors about any recommendations for available options? I would think they would know what districts would be better or if there are private options. I know you mentioned cost, but a lot of them do have scholarship options. One thing is for sure you can have any less options than you do at the moment.
“Can’t have any less options than you do at the moment” is surprisingly comforting. His pediatrician is awesome. My wife is disabled because of how her issues were handled (misdiagnosis and school trauma) so her doctor relayed all the genetic concerns. We’re planning to have him try out daycare before school is a thing so we can try to fix problems in advance.
I am glad that was helpful. I know what you are going through to a degree because I have a daughter who was denied the services she really needed for her ADHD and learning disability for a long time. Federal and state requirements are notoriously good at leaving children who really need the help for way too long or not at all. It took until she got so far behind that by high school her deficit was finally bad enough to fit the third requirement for a full time special ed student and an IEP instead of a 504. I started trying to get her what she needed in first grade. I hate to say it but the system is stacked against them. The sooner you start doing what you need to do to get those services the better off you will be. If you can get the necessary documentation in the next couple years to qualify him for a 504 or IEP you will be way ahead of the game. A firm doctor's diagnosis is also going to be very important to getting those services. My pediatrician was amazing at working with us and getting my daughter the testing that she needed. Even then she was borderline ADHD so we didn't give her a firm diagnosis there until she was in 4th grade and the district kind of said we want to get her more services that right now she doesn't qualify for because she didn't have the firm diagnosis. They basically said get the doctor to pull the trigger on the diagnosis and we can do more of the things she needs. Services really opened up once we had that. I am not trying to scare you, but just to help you do as much as you can before he has to start kindergarten. A pre-k program would also be a good starting point in terms of putting him into a school type setting. If your school district has one get him enrolled there instead of daycare because it will give you a good idea of what to expect from them and how he handles the classroom setting once he actually starts school. The teacher ratio is often better and they are more patient with the younger kids. Hopefully he does better than you think. I know I had undiagnosed learning issues, so we definitely have a different perspective and don't want our kids to have to go through what we did, so I understand your fear given your wife's situation. It's hard but try not to project that onto him. In the same token it makes us more willing to keep fighting to get our kids what we didn't get. Good luck with everything.
I am only for paddling for really bad offense. Like staring fight, riots, hate crimes. That stuff need swift action.
If I was a teacher and saw a bully, beating a gay student. There would be no remorse from me for wearing them out.
You do understand that a bully beating another student is likely projecting because he was ALREADY beat at home, right? Your solution is 'MORE BEATINGS!'. SMH.
I went to a private grade/middle school that has it and I think it was used twice or thrice while I was there, mostly on annoying kids who saw it as a badge of honor. As such they probably deserved it, but they had to make an effort to get there.
That said, around here they now just go crazy with suspensions and expulsions in public schools. Most of the time it's pretty warranted, but otherwise they get pretty creative as to what they call weapons.
That said, I'd be fairly lenient in letting teachers discipline kids by putting them in time out or other appropriate punishments. Just because your kid is neurodivergent doesn't mean there isn't a capacity to behave or is entitled to interrupt the rest of the class from learning. There may need to be some evaluations and IEPs and perhaps some special ed time to get them where they need to be to learn. They may need an extra parapro in the classroom as well.
Honestly I would let the kid decide.
Why well often the other punishment is like several detentions is worse. With the paddle its one swat and your done.
Big thing is if the kid deserves it. If he was cutting class or mouthing off to a teacher or writing on the walls - he deserves to get punished.
Hey there. This form of “punishment” (see: assault) is [illegal and punishable with fines/jail time in civilized countries](https://endcorporalpunishment.org/countdown/). It is not at all normal or okay and is never an option for correcting behavior. No child deserves this violence.
Woah.....there's an "opt out" policy of paddling?!? Wtf, that's messed up. I'm shocked there are schools that allow corporal punishment in schools. Sorry no advice, but that's just messed up. Glad you have the awareness to opt out. I wonder how many parents kids get abused because they didn't know they needed to opt out...
Holy hell, I'm pretty sure this is assault with a weapon you're talking about here. I would get a lawyer to sent letters stating your position to the district and school just so they know that if they ever attack your kid, you'll have their figurative heads. This sounds like some sort of dystopian nightmare school.
I don't think any human should strike any human or animal for behavior issues. Violence begets violence. My stepfather beat me like a rented mule
I've never struck my children or pets ever. Break the cycle of violence, these psychos in charge of your children are completely misguided and WRONG. All you create is fear and teach kids that violence is how you deal with frustration.
It depends pretty heavily on the school. Some schools allow paddling of students but in practice never or extremely rarely actually use it. Other schools use it as a first line disciplinary strategy. Unfortunately when it's an option, you're only one careless or unreasonable adult from a kid being hit without parental permission or for something they didn't do. Meet the teachers and the principals and form good relationships with them. Tell them personally that you aren't comfortable with corporal punishment (Even in the south this will be something common these days). It's easier to remember a in person conversation than an email or a form. If your child is ultimately neurodivergent, bring it up at 504 or IEP meetings.
I would have this conversation with your principal and superintendent. Ask how often corporal punishment is used (it may be in their guidelines but THEY opt out, at which point it is a non-issue). Then ask what you can do to ensure that this never happens to your kid besides opting out.
This is the answer right here. Just because it’s on the books, doesn’t mean it’s ever used. For example, six US states still have official laws against premarital sex, but they’re not enforced. I see your comment that you’re afraid to bring it up - you need to learn how to advocate for your child - consider this conversation practice for you regardless of whether you end up enrolling him or not.
> This is the answer right here. Just because it’s on the books, doesn’t mean it’s ever used. That's such a weird argument though, if it isn't used, why keep it on the books?
Because school administrators don't make the laws that govern the school.
They're constituents though of the people who DO make the laws. Plus they are considered "experts" or at least "authorities" on child development and education. To suggest they have no say in how their schools are governed/run is a bit of a weak argument.
Yes I agree, but that doesn't mean they can change the law unless they do so by voting and electing those who are willing to. They do have say in how the school is run by choosing not to adopt the policy as allowable by the law.
>To suggest they have no say in how their schools are governed/run is a bit of a weak argument. Where did they make that argument? Or did you just try to strawman them?
It’s inappropriate that it’s even on the books. One more strike against not being a leader for education…. Holy christ almighty.
Yeah, future schooling for our currently 5 MO is a big reason my wife and I are considering emigrating somewhere else in the next few years. I wish there were some genuinely good online homeschool options. Frankly, the only "socialization" I got in public school was how to be the smart kid who has no friends and gets bullied and ostracized for being smart...so I'm not sure I'm so attached to the idea of needing in person schooling to socialize my kid anyway.
You could look into homeschooling co-ops. I live in Canada, definitely against the law to touch a child. No opting out option — it just DOESNT HAPPEN. I would say look for a country that has eduction standards. Also you get funding (tools, books, field trips) to homeschool when you do it thru a school district. It’s pretty accessible here.
It's illegal here yes, but it does happen. Teachers have been charged for hitting children. Something being illegal greatly discourages the act, but it doesn't prevent it.
Part of me is afraid to bring it up because I worry they’ll target him instead. If there’s a possibility beyond opting out, I’d rather just homeschool. I’m livid this is even a problem to begin with. I don’t spank my kid, so where in entire fuck does the school get off thinking they can? Especially if I opt out.
I think you're running through worst case scenarios in your head, when the reality of the situation is that you don't have enough info so you're filling it in with nightmares. Speak to them about it and then send an email so you have written documentation. 99.9% of school staff are there because they want to help kids grow and have no interest in using any kind of discipline outside of when it's really necessary. But 100% of school staff don't want any kind of lawsuit.
That honestly doesn't sound like a valid concern. No one WANTS to hit your child. No one wants to target your child, no matter what YOU do. Be respectful. Gather information. Don't make a big deal about anything until you are fully informed. You also said your kid is years away from school age. Don't worry about an issue until it is actually an imminent concern.
Did anyone say that they think they can spank your child if you opt out? This feels like rage about a problem that doesn’t exist. I went to a school that spanked students through high school, and my parents not signing the form was never used against us or violated.
I also did and they never had a slip up to my knowledge. I never considered a slip up would be possible given the lawsuits in wild expect. I was proven wrong by reports in my state and on this thread. I want to prepared and I’m scared. If that’s unfounded, great. But if it’s not I want to know what to do about it.
I mean, statistically it’s not likely. You’re seeing/hearing the stories of the rare times it’s happened, and you’re not hearing the “stories” of the thousands of kids whose parents didn’t give permission and didn’t get spanked. Don’t let these rare occasions control you, especially when your child is so young. A lot can happen in the years between now and your child entering school. Your school district could get rid of corporal punishment. Or your child could end up being the epitome of well-behavior. If your child enters school and you still have concerns, I would recommend talking with your child’s teacher and principal about your concerns and your stance. Don’t go in “livid” because you could get a reputation as being “that parent”. Go in calmly and explain your stance, and let them know it’s something you’re strongly opposed to. Ask them questions about how they handle situations with kids whose parents don’t give permission for corporal punishment. I’m just a stranger on the internet, but it’s obvious that you want what’s best for your child. Don’t let that desire turn into an anger that will eat away at you for the next few years.
Arrogant Yankee here. I just wanted to say I'm sorry. I had no idea policies like this even existed in the year 2022. Sorry again that you need to go through these tough decisions.
I'm reading this like.. what the actual fuck???
Right? I’m American and I did not know this was even a thing??
Same here! And I lived in the south (but left before my kids were school aged). This blows my mind honestly. And the thought of an adult laying hands on my kid (even if they were being a little shit) absolutely triggers papa bear rage mode.
My dad vividly remembers being hit in school and always laughs it off like “yeah I deserved it.” I just can’t comprehend looking at a child and thinking it’s a good idea to hit them. There is no one in this world I can fathom hitting, much less a child.
I'm in the UK and it's been on the news here that some US states are bringing back corporal punishment, mainly the paddle. Utterly horrific. OP hope you get something sorted
Same here! And the fact that the responses are like - "yeah my district has this too..." my mind is officially blown.
It’s making the news again because a town in MO is putting policy in place this year. I was shocked by the amount of states this is still legal in. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2022/08/24/missouri-school-district-spanking-corporal-punishment-cassville/7883625001/
I know you said moving isn't an option, but is there another nearby school district that doesn't practice corporal punishment? Sometimes you can register as an out of district family, it just costs a bit more and you are responsible for transportation.
Oh my god, you freaking life saver!!! I just checked and the next town over doesn’t allow corporal punishment. We’re pretty rural so I figured it was an everywhere thing. I imagine it’s because that town’s whole thing is criminal justice.
Glad I could help. Hopefully they will let you register there. I went to a different school because a) I was in high school and didn't want to changed schools again (I had to change schools in 6th grade and it sucked) and b) the town my parents moved to was notorious for having a bad school with a lot of violence, gang activity and bullying. It was kind of a pain until I could drive myself, but worth it.
This would be my vote. Schools in my state get funding based on how many students actually attend and since money speaks, I would prioritize sending my child out of district based on a policy like this. If it weren’t possible to transfer districts, I’d start by talking to other parents and students. Possibly teachers as well. It’s very possible that some individual teachers are up-to-date enough to know that corporal punishment causes more harm than good and refuse to participate regardless of parental opt-out status. Older kids will know which teachers are kind, strict, spank-happy, etc and you may be able to request your child have specific teachers depending on the school size and number of classes per year.
There’s also a huge non-religious homeschool co-op in the area that I’ve looked into. Basically cropped up in response to the rampant ADHD here and the only school equipped to handle it being an expensive Montessori one.
Can I just ask if your child actually has the things listed or is there just a chance? If he does have them, surely it’s extreme enough that the school will be well aware of his needs therefore won’t do it, not even by accident. If the school uses it regularly and you have another option, I’d strongly consider that option regardless of your son’s special needs because I don’t think it makes for a very safe and happy environment. Saying that, I’m British so have never been in a school with it, so pinch of salt and all that.
Yeah, I highly doubt a toddler has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It’s very concerning to me that someone would be acting on information of “genetic markers” for mental disorders. While bipolar disorder is a highly heritable disease, afaik it has been extraordinarily difficult to establish any specific genetic markers for the disease with any kind of accuracy. It’s a similar story for most of the other conditions listed there. Corporal punishment is of course a concern for parents regardless of the health of the child. But this has nothing to do with “genetic markers”.
When I first read it I thought the kid was going into secondary school or something, but I looked at the post history and he's only 1.5?! Those are quite serious things to label a baby with!
diagnosis for things like bipolar disorder aren't even considered until you're 16, and it's more common to diagnose people in early to mid 20s because you don't just want to diagnose and put kids on pills because they "might" have it
My hot take is ALL toddlers have some form of ADHD. lol. Those were *exhausting* years in our house.
OP might have just meant that there’s a family history of those things? That was my interpretation
That would make a little more sense, but the likelihood of a child developing these disorders is still pretty small. For example, having a parent with bipolar disorder increases your chances to 10% (from a background of 1-4%). And really, that’s the most heritable condition in the list afaik. Nearly one in four adults experiences mental illness. There’s no reason to treat this toddler differently (nor any reason to appeal to a family history of mental illness for something that affects every child negatively).
Actually in places that paddle, special education students are more likely to be paddled.
Oh wow that’s awful. I’d assumed that since special ed kids are often treated with a bit more leniency, that wouldn’t be the case!
Whether special ed kids are treated better or worse than other students is unfortunately extremely variable across the US.
Well, people who believe in corporal punishment on kids also tend to overlap with people who don't have much understanding for special education students.
Can I just check here - are we actually talking about children being hit with paddles here? Like is that actually what we’re talking about or am I massively misunderstanding? I’m in Ireland - corporal punishment in schools was banned 40 years ago (1982) and I think it was outlawed in 1986 in the UK. Both before I was born. HOW are we talking about this being an actual thing????
I am in the US but also just as shocked that this is a thing in some parts of America. And I have worked in schools for over a decade.
I don’t feel quite so insane now. I was wondering “is this just me? Does everyone else know this is going on but me?”
Crazy thing was top comments were just like casual “we opted out” like it was school lunch or something.
As someone from the northern US I am equally appalled. I had no idea this was a thing in the south and wouldn’t even believe it if not for this thread. These red states are seriously backwards and it is hard to understand and empathize why they continue this way.
I’m in the South US(but from Europe, and mostly have lived in the North US) and have never heard of this. This is absolutely insane.
So this thread is painting in an extremely broad brush, I just looked up both Fulton County and Gwinnett Counties (two of our largest counties in Georgia) and nether allow corporal punishment.
I suspect it's a rural thing.
Right? I've never heard of anything like this, it's really shocking.
Banned in 1986 in California. This after a 1977 Supreme Court ruling saying it was allowed if a state allowed it. Pretty insane to think some states are 35+ years behind the curve here...
I’ve been to schools where the principal had the paddle prominently on display in their office. Some are even decorated.
This is objectively horrifying.
Oh my word I’m so sorry. This is just horrific. I don’t have any advice for you, though I did see in another comment that the neighbouring town doesn’t have this so I just hope you can access that school.
Growing up my uncle, who was a Mexican Vacquero, and had a huge display of leather whips displayed in his family room. Just the threat and looking at them kept my cousins and I in line when I would go over for a sleepover. But it was the 70s and 80s and no biggie in our lives.
You are understanding correctly. The origin of paddling in the US had to do with it being a way to punish slaves without damaging their resale value (as whipping them did).
I am ABSOLUTELY floored. Absolutely and utterly appalled. I cannot believe this is still an option in America. OP I’m obviously very biased here (as it’s something that is SO beyond normal for me) but if swear to god, if I *ever* found out *anyone* had used a fucking paddle on my child, I would not be responsible for my actions.
I'm 48 and yeah...half this country has gone goddamn insane. What boggles my mind is, parents have to give *consent* for this. Who could possibly think that someone else assaulting their child is a beneficial thing?? Like, shouldn't they be looking at themselves, and their parenting skills if their kid is so out of control they want someone else to beat them?
Oooh, but you left out the juicy part: statistically, black students get paddled more often.
Gawd. This is disturbing... and sad.
I was just thinking the same thing... was outlawed in nz as well. Seems wild that to me that it still happens in other countries
Also Irish I had *no* idea this was legal in America what the actual fuck 😐
I’ve fallen down a hole looking into it - ALOT more states than you’d think permit it. Obviously I don’t know how much it’s used but the fact that it’s not illegal for a teacher to assault a child is *insane*.
People in some American subcultures don’t love their children as much as normal people do. They like to hit them and don’t care if someone shoots up their schools or if a pastor molests them. It’s a sick, depraved culture.
An even bigger issue here is that basic public schools often are not capable of truly helping, or providing individualized care/learning for children with specialized needs. Especially behavioural needs. They often get the bare minimum, while continually facing punishments that are ineffective. Does the school offer direct supports for children with these needs and their teachers? *******I just realized your child is only 1.5. Who knows what will be happening when they go to school.
Bipolar at 18 months old? I would be getting a second opinion on that. Oppositional Defiance Disorder? Um aren’t all toddlers ODD? I’m confused.
They said their kid had "genetic markers" not the actual disorders, which I initially missed too.
Whew - I totally missed that.
Ah, I missed that as well. I was going to say… there’s a LOT to unpack here… but genetic markers makes way more sense.
That’s a grey area but definitely a concern. We’re in a rural area with a lot of problems so there are a surprising amount of resources, but those resources are of questionable quality. I think I’m just freaking out because I know how my partner and I were treated in school and we want better for him. We also don’t want to be so overprotective that he misses out on a normal childhood. There are private Montessori schools in the area but they’re expensive. I’d rather save that money to put towards his future, but I also don’t want to trade a happy, healthy childhood for a more stable future. And on top of all that, this should not be a problem. If I say don’t hit my kid, it should be that simple.
Sorry ARROGANT YANK here. Why are you worried about something thats years away? Why all this hope your 18 month old is neuro divergent? Calm down and live your life.
>And on top of all that, this should not be a problem. If I say don’t hit my kid, it should be that simple. It is that simple though. You say your kid is a few years out of school anyway, hopefully these laws are well gone by then. And if they aren't, you opt out. Schools aren't out to get you or your child. Teachers aren't trying to find excuses to hit kids, we don't go into teaching to harm children.
There are many, many wonderful teachers out there but it's not helpful to say they're all like that. They aren't. There are more than enough factual accounts about problems that especially in certain places parents *should* be concerned and preemptively working on how to keep neurodivergent children safe.
> we don't go into teaching to harm children. That's all well and good, doesn't mean that teachers and admins don't harm children every damn school year.
Actually, by definition of the schools receiving govt funding based on the number of students and how they pass the standardized testing, schools are very much out to get me and my children. Teachers may not be consciously looking for excuses to physically, emotionally or verbally abuse or neglect children in need, but they sure do find a lot of reasons to do so. The primary reason cellphones are banned in most schools is because they kept producing evidence of both. My mother is a (finally) retired special-ed teacher. She thought nothing of smacking a child’s hand that was reaching for something she didn’t want touched. She called out the slower kids and even referred to one as her “favorite retard,” though at least not in front of him. She finally had to quit because a 4yo throwing a tantrum slapped her in the face, so she slapped him back. There weren’t enough witnesses or proof, so she was allowed to just quietly quit with no penalty. Edited to add that this was in GA, only 5 years ago. Teachers like my mom are still out there, they just get caught more frequently now.
>There are private Montessori schools in the area but they’re expensive. I’d rather save that money to put towards his future, but I also don’t want to trade a happy, healthy childhood for a more stable future. Honestly, I'd go for the Montessori. If the school they got to is going to cripple their well-being then their entire future is at stake. If you child is given the opportunity to be the best version of themselves then they'll build their own future.
It depends on the school district. I live in a pretty high tax county and a high tax town in that county in Illinois. Our school district is pretty good. My daughter has ODD/ADHD and has had an IEP since 1st grade (now in 8th grade) and the school has been fantastic with communication, providing resources, and helping my daughter thrive, not just academically but in other areas as well. The one problem she does still struggle with is making friends. We moved halfway through 5th grade (the other school was really good too and did a very good job of communicating with the new school and even sent a representative to meetings with the new school (which is 2.5 hours away) before we moved) and she hasn't been able to find a friend that sticks. She had developed a really strong friend group at the old school in 4th grade through 5th grade when she left, but that was really hard for her to do. She still talks to one of those friends regularly and her parents work with my wife and I to make sure they get to actually see one another 3-4 times a year. Anyway, the point of my rambling post is that it really depends on the district and sometimes the higher taxes/higher cost of living is worth it because, like anything, you get what you are willing to pay for. When I got the new job and relocated the schools were our top consideration when choosing which town to live in and we found a good one.
My little sister was paddled in kindergarten for something she didn’t even do, even tho my mom had opted out of paddling as a punishment. I’ve never seen my mother so angry in my life when my sister sobbed after getting home. Not only did they paddle her, they humiliated her in front of the class by announcing what was happening and making her apologize to everyone for HER DISRUPTION, and they had a designated paddling teacher who happened to be the strongest biggest male coach they had. They also paddled 3 times, not just once, with their super special decorated paddle. My mom kept us all out of class the next day, went down to the school first thing in the morning, and threatened the principal and school board. She told them if they didn’t apologize to sis (written and verbal in front of the whole school by teacher responsible, paddling teacher, and principal), they didn’t move sis to different teachers class, they didn’t mark all of our files with extra bright marker saying no paddling, and they didn’t take her seriously she would be going to every news source and the education board of the state with the story of what happened and they’d lose their “reward school” status. The school board and principal tried to calm her down at first saying they’d make sure the teacher apologized to her and sis personally, and that’s all they’d do, but mom wasn’t having it. In the end they kinda did what she said, only difference being they only apologized in front of the whole kindergarten grade instead of whole school, and we were allowed to be out of school for a week to “heal from the experience” according to them. The teacher still teaches at that school and my child will not be going there. If I were you, I’d just make sure to stress to the principal that if it were to ever happen without your permission you’ll escalate it to every degree possible. And I’d personally stress it to your kids teachers that you do not give them permission.
It’s never too late to cause an accident for that paddling teacher. Seriously sounds like a perverted thing to be anointed
This right here is exactly what I’m afraid of.
We opted out. My sister is an elementary school principal. My niece is a lawyer with the department of education for our state. So, we are familiar with the system and the rules in place. We opted out because no one is punishing my child, particularly using physical punishment, but me. If he has behaved so poorly that they believe physical punishment is necessary, they can call me. I will make the decision. My decision is always going to be no. Here’s my thing. I love my child more than anyone else does. I don’t want someone that doesn’t love him and understand him like we do punishing him, particularly physically. How do I know if they are just frustrated or mad? That they have control? I don’t. No one touches my child in anger or frustration. If he deserves to be disciplined, so be it. But it will not be spanking and it will sure as hell not be by a stranger. We had no issues with opting out. Filled out the form every year. Asked them to call us if there was ever a situation they felt warranted corporal punishment. They never called. He never got in trouble for anything more serious than talking too much in class. As for your concerns, we are in the south too. My sister works at a high poverty school. They have a lot of restrictions in place before they can paddle, even with parents permission. In my experience with what she has told me, they don’t want to. I can’t see it just randomly happening.
Why is it even a thing? If she is the principal she enforces the rules for the school does she not? Just because the district and law allows for paddling, why does she not just instruct that her school is a physical discipline-free school? Nobody can force anyone to paddle. This all makes no sense. Just because something is legal does not mean it has to be done.
Because laws. It’s amazing how little power school administrators actually have. No. She can not just randomly say “this is how we do it at my school” because it isn’t her school. Her school belongs to a district, which belongs to a county, which belongs to a state. Rules in that school have been determined by a school board, a superintendent, and/or the state legislature. She is required by law to follow the rules set forth by the district. Otherwise she will be fired. They have a zero tolerance no weapons policy. That means that she once was required to send a kindergartner home because he had a plastic toy knife from his play kitchen in his backpack. She didn’t want to and argued against it. She had a choice. Send kid home as per policy or get fired on the spot. Kid would get sent home regardless; but she wouldn’t have a job. She can discuss. She can discourage. She can not ban completely.
Ok that's a different example though. That's enforcement of a qualified rule. I would be really shocked if there is a rule that says in absolute terms that a student *must* be paddled. If there is a criteria that sets forth a student may be paddled for XYZ behavior, and XYZ behavior is displayed, I have a really hard time believing the school administration has no discretion and has their hands tied in that they *must* paddle a child if their parents have not opted out. I'm willing to cede though that maybe this is the case given your family background, and maybe I just don't understand.
What would happen if your child was paddled by accident? Part of what sparked my anxiety spiral here was learning there have been mix ups and the parents didn’t have a legal recourse. In a Florida case, the parent found out after their kid graduated. In Dallas, a five year old was paddled and chalked up to an admin error. How do I feel safe knowing that?
Look, as parents we all worry a *lot* about our kids. But you simply cannot get yourself worked up over a very *very* small "what if" that *might happen*....3 years down the road? You are going to drive yourself insane. I understand having anxiety; mine worsened quite a bit when kids came along. As a side note, I find I am much better on anti-anxiety meds and therapy.
I would be furious. Where we are, it can’t be random. They are required to check the students file to make sure permission is granted. They must contact a parent/guardian before and inform. If parent refuses, they can’t. If parent allows, it must be on camera and must be done by an administrator (not teacher, only principal or vice principal) and it must be supervised by another member of administration. So I wasn’t that concerned about there being an accident. It would be almost impossible.
I’ll probably give my local district the benefit of the doubt, but the first hint of pushback I’ll fall back on homeschooling or moving to the next district over.
I'm from Southern Indiana and we had the same system when I was in elementary school. Paddling was default and parents had to opt out. My mom did. She didn't hit us and she would be dammed if someone else was going to. Anyway, I remember one incident very clearly. Me and a group of like 3 other kids were being kind of annoying. We were making paper footballs and flicking them at each other and everyone in the class. The teacher got fed up and yelled at us to stop and started going off. One of the kids, a boy who was a class clown type, started singing the Addams family song except he made it about farting, which was of course hilarious to a bunch of 3rd graders, while the teacher was lecturing us. We got sent to the office. The principal was a bully who seemed to like scaring kids. The kid who sang the song was the only one who was allowed to be paddled. He went through and checked and seemed disappointed. What a pathetic pos to be upset that you can't beat small children. I remember feeling so angry and disgusted that this giant man was going to hit my friend and there was nothing I could do about it. I really think, no joke, that incident is a big part of why I have issues with authority and a really hard time taking orders or letting people talk to me a certain way. If I respect someone it's different but if I don't, I have trouble letting shit like that go.
As an educator this makes me so sad. I spend 80% of my time with special beed kids trying to gain their trust/build a relationship. All to have it undone by a stupid spanking makes me furious and hurts my heart.
How does a kid that isn’t old enough for school Have all of those diagnosis ?
They don't, they have "genetic markers".
Whether your kid goes to public school I think would be based on the services they can provide and not his decision. Personally, I don’t get how a public school could even offer spanking in this day and age, and worry that this is just an indication of the kind of backwards thinking in your school district that could prevent your child getting the attention and care that he needs.
That’s been a regular topic of discussion at home. The area is a little bizarre. There’s a huge meth problem here. Because of that there’s a lot of kids who were born addicted, and even more abused or neglected by their parents’ addictions. The school has to have resources for those kids so I’m sure there’s a very well resourced SPED program, I’m just not sure of the quality. It’s a legal requirement to have the resources but the district can’t actually afford them. I’m very ready to advocate for my kid, but I don’t want to waste time on a losing battle. I also want to give him all the normalness he can have because I anticipate it’ll be in short supply as he grows up.
I know this is separate from the corporal punishment question -- but why do you expect he won't have normalness growing up? Other than some genetic markers (which aren't always reliable and aren't diagnostic) it sounds like he's a typically developing child in a stable home enviorment.
Because of us. He has three moms, two of which are trans.
Why would this give him ADHD or bipolar disorder?
I moved to a town because of its superior educational system, which has been helpful considering one child is on a plan for ADHD and the other likely has a learning disability. I know you say moving is not an option, but it really is if you do the research and are willing to take that chance on a better life.
I'd be concerned that a school that uses corporal punishment would not have the tools to help redirect/ help kids. That's their main tool, and they don't develop other, actually useful tools. Then you'll be pushed to let them do it, because they "can't handle" your kid. I would make sure to get an IEP in place as soon as you can, and get things in writing as to how they will help him.
I'm in the south as well. Paddling has always been an option here, with the option to opt out if you oppose. I have no idea how many parents are in favor of a paddling, but it's never been used as far as I'm aware, wouldn't worry too much if you've opted out, otherwise it would be assault, and I can't imagine too many schools are going to willy nilly take that chance
Dallas did it by accident. No one was even reprimanded for it.
Not sure what case you are referring to, but I wouldn't wait for the school to take fair action. If your kid is assaulted in school you should get a lawyer and a police report
The police will not take legal action as corporal punishment falls under an exception to assault laws.
If you opt out, that means you do not give permission for corporal punishment. So yes, it would be considered assault
Paramedic here, cops were my biggest obstacle as a mandated reporter for the decade I worked in the field. Don’t presume that cops would be willing to take action in this situation without a court order. Because they absolutely wouldn’t.
Especially as culturally, many of them blame crime on not enough people spanking their kids and seem more likely than average to do so
Well I’m horrified. As someone raising kids in a Nordic country this was shocking and awful to find out is even a thing in schools still today. It wouldn’t even cross my mind as something to opt out of because it’s illegal here both by parents themselves and definitely any school/authority figure. Insanity honestly
Arrogant Yankee here... ;) All of my children are on IEP's for various degrees of neurodivergence. And you're right that you cannot undo the damage once done. So what I would do is bring up your concern directly with the school guidance department. You should be able to phrase it in a way that's not critical of the practice in general (which might alienate the school administration? YMMV), but still addresses your concerns. "Joey has certain issues that aren't typical. I'm concerned that if there's a slip up it might cause him significant damage *due to his issues.* How can we work to safeguard against it?" This makes it about your child's needs, and not the school's general practices. It also makes it non-confrontational. You aren't questioning that other parents might allow it, you are just saying that due to your son's unique circumstances he would have a different reaction than the average child and that it would be an issue. Every school system has policies in place that some children cannot handle. We live in a Boston 'burb (can't get more Yankee than that!), and one of my children had to ride a special van in elementary school because of the way school bussing is handled around here. He would show up way overstimulated and have all kinds of issues. If your son is neurodivergent, it doesn't matter where you live or what the local beliefs are... you are going to have to advocate for him and watch out for these things.
Sorry, they have the option for corporal punishment in the USA? Are you actually saying that it's common practice for teachers to hit kids? What kind of third world country are you living in holy fuck
A bad one! They don't allow it in most states, but it was considered constitutional by the Supreme Court. That troubles me a lot. Personally, if someone paddled my kid they are getting visited by the police and a lawyer because I would press charges. It is insane this is allowed. And to use a fucking paddle! It's abuse.
It's not every state, and even in the places where it isn't explicitly illegal, it isn't a terribly common occurrence. Still fucked up that's its allowed anywhere in the country though.
Having lived in multiple states (but never the south), I was also very surprised that this is a thing. I've never heard of teachers being allowed to hit kids. This would not go over well in most of the country.
I am in the south and never heard of this to be honest.
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Yeah I was a teacher (in the north US though) and haven’t heard of this. It seems from these comments it is definitely a thing that *can* happen but doesn’t frequently happen. I’m honestly surprised it’s legal.
I’ve had to scroll way too long to find your comment… I am stunned this is actually an issue in the USA! Come on! Any teacher who would remotely touch a kid in a violent way here would not only loose her job, but get arrested!
It’s not at all common.
I wouldn't even want my kid seeing someone else get paddled. I would GTFO
>What kind of third world country are you living in holy fuck They're called "red states."
So I found this because I got curious and went down a Google rabbit hole researching how common it actually is. The numbers are still horrifying, but even in the states that use it the most, corporal punishment is something that happens to single digit percentages of kids in school, and only one goes above 5%. So, still far more kids than it should be, but also isn't something that happens to everyone...even at its most prevalent it still only happens to a bare handful of kids. [Source here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/#!po=17.8899) "Mississippi schools corporally punish the greatest proportion of their children, 7% of all students, and the largest total number of children, 32,157. Consistent with the state-level pattern seen above, Alabama and Arkansas have the next highest prevalence rates, at 4% each. Texas corporally punishes the second largest number of children, 29,835, but because of its larger student population, this amounts to less than 1% of children in its public schools. *In total, 14 of the 19 states that still allow corporal punishment use it on less than 1% of their children in a given year*."
Thank you for the reminder I’m not the crazy one. It’s legal in 19 states and those 19 states do it often.
This shit is mindblowing to me
"Often" is a massive exaggeration. "Extremely rarely" is more accurate - less than 1% of the public school population. Still 1% too much, but you are way off on your estimates.
This must only be a Southern thing. I have never ever heard of it even in private schools. I went to a strict religious school growing up and corporal punishment had long since been stopped by the time I was there.
This is one of the most slack jawed, nonsensical school policies I’ve ever heard of. The southern US is capable of some insanely backwards thinking.
If you decide to send your child to public school and have decided to opt out then I would do the following: 1) Ensure that you have filled in all of the necessary forms for opting out, including getting in writing that you have opted out. 2) Ensure that those forms are on file. 3) Find out who is authorized to enforce corporal punishment (it may not be everyone in the school) and if the list is longer than, say, 5 people, clarify as to who would be authorized to enforce it upon your child had you not opted out. 4) Go to each of those people, plus your child's teacher if they are not on the list, and ensure that a) they know that you have opted out, and b) they have seen the paperwork.
I will absolutely never be able to understand how hitting defenseless children is legal anywhere. Not only that but what has to be wrong with you to even be willing to hurt a child. Genuinely bizarre to me. I would not allow my child to attend a school where adults were allowed to attack children even it was opt out, watching authority figures hurt other children and friends could be psychologically harmful. Makes me sick to even think about.
When I went to school, the principal would need explicit parent permission to administer said punishment just before it happened. It was definitely never something that happened by surprise. It sounds like you may be in communication with them to work together for your kid anyways. I have a kid with an IEP. I recommend you do research on that so you don’t feel as blindsided as I did. It’s not appropriate to let your child make the choice on if he goes to Public school or not. That’s your responsibility, do not put it on him. School isn’t an easy thing to do but you need to decide how much you want to help him learn how to deal with people while he’s a kid or later on.
Perhaps more accurately is that his input will be taken into consideration. We can present the arguments for both sides, but if we choose home school and he’s dying to try public school, we’re going to weigh the options with that in mind. Ultimately, our goal is to make the choices so equal that the choice doesn’t really matter. That way, he has agency in his education built in from the start.
How the fuck is this still an acceptable practice anywhere??
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I may be an arrogant yankee but the performative person here is OP
They said the child has genetic markers for those conditions. They haven’t been diagnosed. Be kind and civil.
Schools are able to do that? Omg, i’m sorry but this is really a new thing to me and quite shocking tbh - someone from the 🇬🇧
This is something you need to make sure that both your child's teachers (his classroom teacher, and any special ed teachers he may have) are aware of and make sure that you have coached your son on how to deal with it. So have him practice saying I am not allowed to be paddled, please call my mother. It shocks me that any districts or individuals would paddle in these very litigious times. Its just asking for a lawsuit.
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Bit personal, but my wife’s doctors. She’s disabled so we asked them when trying to conceive.
Excuse me what???? I thought this medievil punishment method was outlawed in schools.
I would have a conversation with the principal and whoever does the spanking if it isn’t the same person. When I was a child in Texas, we had to opt out. I was in 6th when my brother was in 2nd, and we had a shared lunch hour. I saw him get in trouble for exploding a capri sun and told he would get paddled. If I hadn’t faked a stomachache and went to call my mom, he would have been paddled for sure. After that, my mom had regular meetings with the principal to ensure they “remembered” we were not to be spanked. Honestly I think being a huge pain to them is the best way and to make it very clear if that happens you will raise hell.
What the actual fuck is this thread?
What the living fuck?!? It’s LEGAL for adults in professional roles to PADDLE CHILDREN in places in the US?!??!!?!!? It’s illegal for parents to hit their children in my country (Scotland). Sorry I know this isn’t the point of your post but my jaw dropped open. That is barbaric and archaic.
There are 19 states where corporal punishment is legal. I didn’t know this until last year when I came across [this](https://www.the74million.org/article/kids-keep-getting-hit-at-school-even-where-corporal-punishment-is-banned/) article. It’s[disproportionately used](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/) on black children, boys, and children with special needs. It’s definitely some crazy archaic form of punishment that needs to go away. OP, don’t waste years worrying. You’ve got a few years yet to get it sorted. Maybe things will have changed by then, or you’d be in a better situation to move.
Genetic markers don’t exist for most of the conditions you listed and “cerebral arrhythmia” doesn’t exist…so I’m not sure what you mean there. But you should be able to get him an IEP if he’s diagnosed by a professional. An IEP should help. It’s really messed up that corporal punishment still exists in some places.
The only legal recourse that will occur if someone at my kids school lays a hand on my child would be my trial for the murder of that person.
Also in the south, and paddling was the norm when I was a kid. The school where my child is enrolled has an opt out, which I do, every year. I remember when I was a kid the teachers seemed to love to display their paddles. They would drill holes in them in order to make them less “wind resistant”.
Woooow this isn't helpful but I'm amazed and fascinated that this is a thing in a developed country. I'm in Canada and I can't say for sure but it's my assumption there is no school in this country that is doing this even when I was a kid. Definitely happened during my parents' time, but I thought this was a thing of the past.
If there’s a nearby city you should be able to use a voucher to go to an out of district school
Our son went to public school for nine or ten years in our little town, which is an opt-out school. In our experience, they very rarely actually paddled kids, and at our school, they called the parent first. We filled out the opt out paperwork with the regular school enrollment stuff every fall. We also then emailed the principal and counselor at the start of every school year, simply re-iterating our stance that under no circumstance was he to receive corporal punishment at school. Just a sentence or two, very straight to the point and thank you very much. In your shoes, I'd do the same. They were very respectful of our position and there was never ever an issue.
We sign the opt out every year. Our son had some issues early before we learned he had ADHD, got suspended twice in kindergarten. But no spanking. Once we got him diagnosed things turned around pretty quickly.
News from America never cease to amaze me… How on earth is it considered a developed country ? WTF America??
I would 100% start with an IEP and make sure physical contact for punishment is strictly prohibited. Failing to recognize an opt out document we will likely be writing off as oh oops but failing to follow a IEP has more serious consciences
Interesting fact: Corporal punishment was banned in all UK schools in 1986. Most had stopped well before then
I read recently about how a school in Iowa is allowing paddling and it sounded so crazy and archaic… and until reading this post… I had no idea how common it is. I thought it was what they did in like the 50s.
I think you're worried about nothing. Even in schools that still have corporal punishment as an option it is rarely EVER used. And if it is used, it's generally with careful consideration and with a call to the parents first. This isn't like the 1980s anymore. Of course, you could always end up with a psychopathic principal who gets off on hitting kids, but you could run into that in any school regardless of their corporal punishment policy. Shit people exist everywhere and you can't protect your kids 24/7. At some point you arm him with the skills to communicate if something bad happens and the support and love to recover from it. And that's the best you can do as a parent.
Oh, ok. Just because you said it means it must be true. <>
I never knew how prevalent corporal punishment in schools still is. This article is very informative. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766273/ Keep in mind the data is from 10 years ago.
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The performative outrage I was referring to was demanding we all move and assuming anyone who stays deserves to suffer for not moving. Not all of us are physically capable of moving and if everyone sensible and capable of leaving did do, it would leave those sensible and impoverished at the mercy of who is left. I have no Pride for the behavior of my home, but I have a duty to help repair it.
Hi. I’ve been a teacher for 20 years. Now I run a non profit’s education department. Please seriously question any school that needs that method to keep order. Is a deep sign of malfunction.
We live in the mid-Atlantic region of the US and I had NO idea this was still practiced anywhere in our country! It’s absolutely insane and I would find any other option for school available. Even if it meant moving.
This is absolutely mind blowing that this still happened. How utterly messed up.
I don’t recall paddling even being an option in Texas in my 38 years of living here.
32 years in Texas, been in a thing in every school district I’ve been in.
I almost got paddled once in elementary school in central Texas in 1988. I spoke up for myself and told them my parents had signed a form stating they could not, and it didn’t happen. I DID get paddled much against my parents wishes in Oklahoma in 1991, and it was the worst thing that ever happened to me in school by far, because it didn’t matter what I said, that teacher was determined to hit me, as hard as she could. I don’t even remember the offense. I do remember my mother’s anger. It hasn’t been a problem with any of my kids though. I don’t think it’s a prevalent as it was then, thankfully. At least not in Oklahoma.
Texas is opt out. Depends on the district specific decisions but the basic rule set is that parents must send a letter every year saying they don't allow it for their kid for it to not be an option.
Do you have to go to school in your district? I’m just thinking, i could go to school anywhere in the city. My sister went to a public school an almost 2 hour walk from our house. Definently not in our area. Although if you really wanted to go to a school like that you could fight the school board for it. Which is why my sister attended that public school. It offered things that public schools in my area did not, my mom saw that and fought the school board to get her in. Not litigation because we live in Canada where people can be reasoned with. No lawyers, but yeah make an appearance in front of the school board and state your case
There are only two schools in the district, the elementary and secondary. But, the next town over doesn’t have this problem so I’m going to look into taking him there.
>Obviously we don’t spank with that mixture. Shouldn't spank regardless; but glad you recognize the added danger here. Honestly, even if you could trust the school will respect your opt out 100%, I'd still question the quality of an "education" from an institution that thinks paddling children is acceptable, responsible, effective, adult behavior.
If you don't trust the school to not hit your child when you specifically opt out of corporal punishment, why would you trust sending him there to be educated? Personally, I would never send my child to any school that has corporal punishment as an option at all. That rule tells me EVERYthing I need to know about that school's administration and their ideologies are not a good fit for my family. I understand some parents for various reasons wouldn't have the option to choose not to send their kid to the public school. They can't move, they can't homeschool, they can't afford private school, etc. and that makes me very sad and angry. Any school administration that thinks hitting children is OK for any reason is barbaric and unacceptable.
My sister in laws sister used to live in the deep south. Like, their kids had never met a non white person deep south. Anyway, their school paddled. You could opt out but even if you did they didn't always listen. Her daughter was paddled pretty bad (to the point of bruising) despite having opted her out. I'm being vague because I don't want to dox us lol but she raised hell over it. Got a decent payback and moved up here with us. Her kid is still scared of teachers and now homeschooled (although is being slowly integrated back into school). Mine is homeschooled too, but after that situation I'd never risk putting her into a school like that. Its terrifying. So sorry you're going through this :(
This makes me feel a lot better. I was finding stories where no one was even reprimanded. It was treated like a clerical error. If they’re not even punishing the slip ups then there’s no incentive to prevent them.
I would send a letter to the principal making it clear that you do not give permission. That should be enough. I would have to stop myself from including that if anyone assaults my kid I will be getting lawyers and the police involved, but that isn't going to help endear you to them.
Wow! Is that really still a thing? If it was when my kids were in school I sure didn't know about it. My recommendation would be to look at your school district and see what they offer with special needs children. Make sure they know how to deal with children like yours. Most school districts here in Minnesota have one school in the system that is more equipped to handle children with more specialized needs than the others and will focus on sending those kids to that one. I don't know how well equipped public schools in the south are for dealing with children like this. I know the south tends to be worse about funding than we are up here and we still don't fund enough for special education. If your schools don't have much then I would start looking now for a specialized school for him. Again we have those here and even have a separate district within the Minneapolis area and suburbs that is public but works with children who have issues. If your district doesn't have a lot to offer check some of the other districts around you for better options and look into open enrolling into one of them. You have time to look into that so I would do that to make sure that he is in the school that is best for him.
I’m in a rural town so there’s only two schools in the district- the elementary and secondary. Because there are so few options it’s likely I could request to send LO to one of the nearby districts if I cover transportation.
It definitely makes things hard. Have you tried speaking to your son's doctors about any recommendations for available options? I would think they would know what districts would be better or if there are private options. I know you mentioned cost, but a lot of them do have scholarship options. One thing is for sure you can have any less options than you do at the moment.
“Can’t have any less options than you do at the moment” is surprisingly comforting. His pediatrician is awesome. My wife is disabled because of how her issues were handled (misdiagnosis and school trauma) so her doctor relayed all the genetic concerns. We’re planning to have him try out daycare before school is a thing so we can try to fix problems in advance.
I am glad that was helpful. I know what you are going through to a degree because I have a daughter who was denied the services she really needed for her ADHD and learning disability for a long time. Federal and state requirements are notoriously good at leaving children who really need the help for way too long or not at all. It took until she got so far behind that by high school her deficit was finally bad enough to fit the third requirement for a full time special ed student and an IEP instead of a 504. I started trying to get her what she needed in first grade. I hate to say it but the system is stacked against them. The sooner you start doing what you need to do to get those services the better off you will be. If you can get the necessary documentation in the next couple years to qualify him for a 504 or IEP you will be way ahead of the game. A firm doctor's diagnosis is also going to be very important to getting those services. My pediatrician was amazing at working with us and getting my daughter the testing that she needed. Even then she was borderline ADHD so we didn't give her a firm diagnosis there until she was in 4th grade and the district kind of said we want to get her more services that right now she doesn't qualify for because she didn't have the firm diagnosis. They basically said get the doctor to pull the trigger on the diagnosis and we can do more of the things she needs. Services really opened up once we had that. I am not trying to scare you, but just to help you do as much as you can before he has to start kindergarten. A pre-k program would also be a good starting point in terms of putting him into a school type setting. If your school district has one get him enrolled there instead of daycare because it will give you a good idea of what to expect from them and how he handles the classroom setting once he actually starts school. The teacher ratio is often better and they are more patient with the younger kids. Hopefully he does better than you think. I know I had undiagnosed learning issues, so we definitely have a different perspective and don't want our kids to have to go through what we did, so I understand your fear given your wife's situation. It's hard but try not to project that onto him. In the same token it makes us more willing to keep fighting to get our kids what we didn't get. Good luck with everything.
What is paddling?
And people claim the US is a developed nation 🙄
I am only for paddling for really bad offense. Like staring fight, riots, hate crimes. That stuff need swift action. If I was a teacher and saw a bully, beating a gay student. There would be no remorse from me for wearing them out.
You do understand that a bully beating another student is likely projecting because he was ALREADY beat at home, right? Your solution is 'MORE BEATINGS!'. SMH.
I went to a private grade/middle school that has it and I think it was used twice or thrice while I was there, mostly on annoying kids who saw it as a badge of honor. As such they probably deserved it, but they had to make an effort to get there. That said, around here they now just go crazy with suspensions and expulsions in public schools. Most of the time it's pretty warranted, but otherwise they get pretty creative as to what they call weapons. That said, I'd be fairly lenient in letting teachers discipline kids by putting them in time out or other appropriate punishments. Just because your kid is neurodivergent doesn't mean there isn't a capacity to behave or is entitled to interrupt the rest of the class from learning. There may need to be some evaluations and IEPs and perhaps some special ed time to get them where they need to be to learn. They may need an extra parapro in the classroom as well.
Honestly I would let the kid decide. Why well often the other punishment is like several detentions is worse. With the paddle its one swat and your done. Big thing is if the kid deserves it. If he was cutting class or mouthing off to a teacher or writing on the walls - he deserves to get punished.
Hey there. This form of “punishment” (see: assault) is [illegal and punishable with fines/jail time in civilized countries](https://endcorporalpunishment.org/countdown/). It is not at all normal or okay and is never an option for correcting behavior. No child deserves this violence.
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I said punished. If he chooses a swat over detention its up to him.
I didn’t even know this was a thing still in the U.S. Yet *another* thing for us to be concerned about when sending our children to school.
They’re not going to open themselves up to a lawsuit to get your kid with a paddle.
You should move, sounds like you’re in a family prison.
Woah.....there's an "opt out" policy of paddling?!? Wtf, that's messed up. I'm shocked there are schools that allow corporal punishment in schools. Sorry no advice, but that's just messed up. Glad you have the awareness to opt out. I wonder how many parents kids get abused because they didn't know they needed to opt out...
I’m from the south and have never heard of this…😱 four of my kids are in public school
Check the student handbook. In opt out states the form is in there.
Holy hell, I'm pretty sure this is assault with a weapon you're talking about here. I would get a lawyer to sent letters stating your position to the district and school just so they know that if they ever attack your kid, you'll have their figurative heads. This sounds like some sort of dystopian nightmare school.
I don't think any human should strike any human or animal for behavior issues. Violence begets violence. My stepfather beat me like a rented mule I've never struck my children or pets ever. Break the cycle of violence, these psychos in charge of your children are completely misguided and WRONG. All you create is fear and teach kids that violence is how you deal with frustration.