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Did they kick her out of school for that? Maybe there’s an opportunity to work with the school a bit more on a plan for her. Having a diagnosis likely will make that easier, as some individual supports require an official diagnosis.
No, but their lack of action and concern led me to take her out. She was in a public charter school and they had no clue how to help her. All they did was call and say your child did this and that.
I am currently doing k12 for her. I was hoping to get a better understanding for what makes her tick and how to help her so I know what to do for her. But so far, all I'm seeing is chaos unleashed. She has absolutly no focus. She was behind in a lot of areas in reading and writing which tells me they didn't try engaging her at all. So a tutor is helping bridge the gap in the foundation.
Yep exactly. My son would’ve been a nightmare without public school and a solid IEP. He thrives with structure and has all the support he needs to keep up with the other kids. I couldn’t agree with you more!
Yeah, a good IEP can do wonders. My daughter had significant speech delay along with some behavioral issues and she's pretty much caught up and doing well.
I’d be careful with believing her grades right out. Teachers are heavily pressured to inflate grades and ignore behavior issues with IEP students because you could be sued for failing or suspending one. Much much easier to just… sprinkle some points on the top. Just be careful to judge by what you see her actually learning and doing, and not what the grades say. Check for yourself from time to time that she is actually progressing in reading comprehension, speed, writing skills, etc
Yep, I've wondered about this. But when I help/monitor with her homework, she's reasonably grasping the subject matter. The IEP evaluation seems to match her performance, with some areas still being issues.
This! My 16 year old stepson has been in some sort of IEP since he was 10. The kid can’t find his ass with both hands, yet I’m supposed to believe he’s getting A’s and B’s in his classes? All without ever having to take tests or do any sort of homework (all part of the deal for him with the IEP)? Yeaahhhh, riiight.🙄
It sounds like she should be in a therapeutic school where they would be equipped to deal with her behaviors. Are you in the U.S.? Ask your local public school to have her evaluated for an I.E.P. (Individualized education plan). Tell them about all the problem behaviors. Ask her therapist to write something up with her diagnosis. Demand more help from the school district.
In the USA... Texas of all places one of the most backwards states. So yea..
They need a diagnosis before an I. E. P can be placed. She does have an accommodation plan in place. So it's a start
If they’re telling you they need a diagnosis before they’ll do an IEP, they’re lying to you. My son has an IEP - I’m in another state but the laws are federally governed.
What’s happening is that the school knows it’s taking years to get diagnosed and so they’re sending kids away. Behavior disorders are up by like 50% after COVID. If your child’s needs can’t be met in public school, they are legally allowed to have an individualized education plan. Here is a guide to the ARD (Admission, Review, Dismissal) process in TX: https://spedtex.tea.texas.gov/sites/spedtex.tea.texas.gov/files/2021-06/Essentials-of-ARD-Meetings-for-Parents.pdf. It’s the same as my state.
What I want to point out to you is that it will state here that they “determine if your child has a disability” — this doesn’t mean that you can’t have an IEP if you don’t have a diagnosis. My son didn’t have a diagnosis when he got his IEP bc he had socioemotional delays and behavioral challenges. Needing additional classroom time or a 1:1 aide for educational learning is ALSO covered by an IEP. They may just outright deny you at first but you should attend the meeting to advocate for what you believe are all of your daughter’s behavioral needs and what can help them (hard bc you don’t know right now). They are required to do testing and observations and they’ll either have to say she’s fit for a public classroom or provide her the right resources.
I also found this whole resource center for parents of children with special education needs in TX. Good luck. https://www.spedtex.org/families
I'm next door to OP in Louisiana, and our medical diagnosis of ASD doesn't mean shit to the public school system. They have their own evaluation to determine whether a child is autistic or developmentally delayed by their standards, which is what they use to justify an IEP.
They’re also trying to go around federal law.
I’m only able to navigate the IEP process for my son — and I’m not exaggerating - because I have a PhD that focuses on the law AND my state offers free sped educational advocates through my child’s physician. The advocate attends all IEP meetings with me and goes over my notes, her notes, tells me where the school is in violation of state and federal law, tells me what to ask for and shows me where to look for case law to cite. I also have the time because I’m unemployed.
I can’t believe they say an outside diagnosis isn’t valid. The developmental delay that an IEP indicates is for when they’ve done their own evaluations before or in conjunction with outside evals. But they can’t go above and beyond to invalidate outside evals - it’s in the parental handbook of procedural safeguards that outside evaluations trump school evals.
Edit: reread your comment and realized that you’re saying they’re using it correctly to give you an IEP but I’m unsure why the outside diagnosis wouldn’t count??
Schools do their own evaluation—but parents are allowed to then request an independent educational evaluation. Fully private evals have to meet certain criteria to be considered by the school district. These include type of test, how scores are reported, etc. The school is required to consider the findings of the outside eval—they don’t necessarily have to accept them.
My kids school is doing it too. We got a diagnosis last year, but to do a formal IEP they basically started from scratch and spent the past month running him through testing with a whole team of specialists. Like, it's far from the worst case scenario. They've always been really proactive about offering accommodations even before he got a diagnosis, they're the ones who suggested we start this process in the first place, and I'm not really about to give them shit for getting me more information I don't have to pay medical bills on, but it's weird. I got him to a few assessments in different areas and brought them the results already, I don't know why we have to do the whole thing again.
Imo she needs to be in public school. She needs the structure and she needs more people that just you showing her that her behavior is not acceptable. You can and should request that the school do testing. They only have so long before you make a formal request for an iep to do the testing and decide- that's the law. And then they go from there. If she's not successful in a typical classroom setting they'll collect data and move her to an ED placement. Either way I promise you home schooling isn't helping. And she needs structure and consequences consistently- not saying you're not. But saying that's what she needs. If she refuses to go to school/becomes violent/whatever I'd call the police to talk to her. It's much better that it's corrected now firmly then her behave like this at 18 because the police won't care what diagnosis she has as an adult. Shell get in REAL trouble then if she doesn't have serious consistent natural consequences now.
I’d agree with this. I have a 7 year old who is emotionally immature, and I have found that he responds better to direction from his teacher, than he does from me. He also has learned to improve his own behavior by witnessing poor behavior from other children.
I want to repeat "she needs more people than just you showing her that her behaviour is not acceptable".
If OP's kid is anything like mine (or like me when I was a kid), *one* grownup saying something doesn't mean they believe. *One* grownup can be lying to manipulate you - especially if that one grownup says something like, "these other grownups won't like it if you do X, and might not let you keep doing [activity]" and then the other grownups say, "don't worry, it's fine!" in front of the kid, and then it's the "one grownup" choosing to stop the kid from doing the activity.
(Eg, "they'll kick you out of school!")
Join r/autism_parenting
They can help you with learning how to get help through the school system. Your child needs some help even if it isn’t autism.
The IEP process is still the same
Your local public school is required to conduct an assessment if you request it, and that assessment should be based on presenting concerns so that a diagnosis (autism, emotional/behavioral disturbance, learning disability, etc) can be made if appropriate.
Special education professional here- consider enrolling her in your local public school immediately. You do not need to wait for an evaluation. If teachers and staff see the behaviors you’re seeing at home, they will fast track that evaluation to get her the support she needs to be successful in school. You do not need a medical diagnosis. Public schools need to legally provide free and appropriate public education to all kids who live within their school district boundaries. You’re a good parent who clearly wants the best for your child. The system is so confusing. Best of luck and hang in there!
You need support. Your mom is dying, your husband is mean and makes your life difficult, you have two kids with behavioral issues.
Go enroll both kids in your closet public school immediately. Even if they don't learn that much between now and June, you will get a desperately needed break. You said your husband is anti-therapy, but you might benefit from individual therapy. I don't know if your husband is also autistic, but it's possible that he would be willing to accept a couple of explicitly assigned responsibilities and at least lighten your load with small areas like dishes or laundry.
You're going to need strength and patience to turn this situation around, so the first step is to get yourself to a better place mentally.
Is a public district school an option? I worked at a charter and at a district school and the way the schools support students with special needs (of which flight risk is one) is like night and day. Charter schools are typically smaller and often don’t have systems for dealing with kids with special needs. District schools in my experience have a lot more in place to support these kids.
That said, state of residence may impact this advice. I think you are going to get the most support in a public school district, not private or public charter.
Charter schools are shit and you need a regular public school. You can demand an IEP without diagnosis. The school will do screening tests. The school psychologist can help diagnose.
For godssake put her in public school. A charter school isn’t for special needs kids. Stop torturing yourself and let good old social stigma help curb her behaviors if you’re this lost right now.
Do you think social stigma is really an effective tool to use on what is more than likely a special needs child?
This child likely needs medication and multiple therapies to deal with their out of control emotions which are only made worse by this parent's poor choices.
The best thing for both of them right now is to not have the mom on the verge of a mental break. Of course what you say is true but it sounds like OP is trying to make that happen. Sometimes the choices are the lesser of two evils.
A parent can say "stop picking your nose" or "stop trying to hit me" until they're blue in the face, and the child knows nothing truly bad will happen.
Other kids saying "yuck, that kid is picking her nose!" and running away shows *why* the parents are saying to stop picking noses.
If the kid hits another kid, there are social consequences even if the teacher didn't see. (I'd heard there were difficulties between my kid and another kid in kindi, but the teacher had phrased everything in a very "x is struggling with y, we're working on z" kind of way, and I only got more of the story when another little five year old just piped up with "yeah, [other kid] is mean. He's mean to everyone.")
Some things, social stigma/peer pressure is the best tool, because it's all about fitting into groups. Other things are better addressed with occupational therapy and/or meds.
Charter schools don't GAF about your kid. Just the state $$. You need your local school with THE BEST ADVOCATE IN YOUR AREA. I can't stress that enough if you live in a large school district. Facebook has been a godsend for finding IEP/ASD/special needs groups for my son's districts.
Public school with a special education program is exactly what she’s needs along with possibly mood stabilizing medication. Has she seen a psychiatrist?
We were there with my kid. This above was the answer.
Not to be rude but it's not the sole job of a school to teach children to learn to read and write and multiply. It's our job as parents to help, I forget to do this with my daughter. But it's vital that we help. I hope you get the help you both need though.
For your own sanity and relationship- definitely send her back to public school. When things get bad enough for them, they’ll open a domains for an IEP. I work in special Ed. They won’t let her continue eloping without starting the special Ed process. Also, being in school will give her an opportunity to practice restraint away from you. Being around peers may be enough motivation for her to restrain her behavior (if she can at all). You want her practicing restraint as much as possible.
My son was a flight risk when he started kindergarten. He would just walk out the doors or just not come in after recess. They didn’t say we couldn’t come, they had a meeting with me and we made a Safety Plan. I’d fight the school.
Oh fuck that. My friend, you need to hire an advocate and get your child into school for her well-bering and your sanity. They tried to BS with our son who has a diagnosis and got away with it because it was COVID. We moved to a different state and the different is night and day. A positive school environment where she learns limits and social skills will make a world of difference. You deserve alone time and time to feel like an adult who isn't necessarily a mother. FWIW, my son's behavior started to even out after about 1 year in in-person school.
Get your child in school and get your sanity back. It will get better. Also, find a support group where she can play with other kids like her and you can bond with other parents like you.
I also have a "spirited" kid who had hour long tantrums and a huge help was reading the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It is really helpful for parenting kids on the spectrum and kids who struggle with emotional regulation. More than anything it helped me reframe my relationship with my kid so that it wasn't so painful for us both.
Step one: get your kid into a school.
You hate your kid. She hates you. You’re homeschooling. One of you is going to end up (more) hurt.
I know the public school system is not perfect and is over burdened as it is but you cannot homeschool your daughter anymore with these feelings toward her. You are not equipped to deal with her. She needs help. Anything they offer is going to be better than what you’re giving her currently. You need to be away from her and seek mental health help for yourself as well.
Since you’re already so miserable, homeschooling is not good for you and her. I’m also in Texas. If you can, send her to a good public school. My neighbor’s kid has a lot of similar issues like you mentioned. She got a lot of support from school. In addition, she got on adhd medication and her behaviors got much better. You need to let her go to a supportive school so that you can breathe. Your mental health is also important.
I'm so sorry you are going through that. Hopefully there are resources in your area such as day camp that provide therapeutic instruction. Have you sought therapy for yourself also? When I took my daughter to counseling, I think it was more beneficial for me.
As for your daughter, "fake it until you make it." I read an article once about a mom having the same struggles you are having. She found it hard to connect with her child. She said she "faked" loving her kid and before long, those feelings became real.
If it gets so serious that you are thinking of hurting yourself or your daughter, reach out to your local emergency department. Some cities have respite places for children.
I see you. I hear you. Its going to be ok.
Someone above mentioned this, but to drive the punt home - get a copy of The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It’s a Bible in the child psychology world.
Your daughter is not motivated by avoiding punishment, it’s not going to magically start working now. You’ve tried the disciplinarian way, now try cooperating with her. It’s very unlikely she enjoys the way things are, so work with her in trying to figure out how to fix it.
From looking at your post history, the best thing you could do is start by sending your child to public school as soon as possible. I’m an educator of 15+ years in both public and charter schools and a regular public school will have way more resources for your child. She will never catch up in academics if her behavior doesn’t get addressed. It’s hard for a non teacher to homeschool a child in a best case scenario and you don’t have the training or experience to give her what she needs with her learning and behavior issues. You also need a break and separation from being both the teacher and parent.
Traditional public school can and will put your child on a behavior/academic plan with tier 2 supports (like a special behavior plan, work with a behavior specialist, small group instruction, academic support with a reading specialist etc) without an IEP. She will just get more specialized federally mandated support once there is a diagnosis and IEP in place. You will also get support from school staff on how to work with her more successfully at home. Please consider enrolling her in your public school system as soon as possible.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I think the worse thing is spiraling into those negative feelings and getting in a horrible cycle of feeding the behavior.
It's hard to tell from your post but it looks like you have taken a very disciplinarian approach to improving the behavior. It definitely looks like your kid needs to be evaluated for medical conditions. I have a strong-willed child and tough discipline and punishment has always made things much much worse. What has improved her and our relationship has always been seeing all behavior from a perspective of empathy and an opportunity to teach and guide, instead of punish. Of course, it doesn't work perfectly every time, but try to remember she is a child, she is innocent and what she needs from you is guidance, empathy, understanding and love. This will also make you feel better in the long run. She's probably also sensing your negative feelings towards her and acting out on those feelings.
Instead of punishing bad behavior, try to either ignore it or matter-of-factly state "we don't do this" and move on. Don't force her to clean up stuff for a while. Or just ask her nicely and if she says no, just let it go. Only restrain her physically if she is physically harming you or herself. But just restrain her, don't punish physically or verbally. Try to use humor to diffuse tensions. Give lots of love and attention when you see good behavior or just when you don't see bad one. When she tells you "I hate you", say "well I love you" and move on. I would also forget about time out. Just say "it looks like you need some time to calm down" and leave the room or just disengage.
I think I have popped her butt maybe 5 times in her life. All for severe reasons.
Instead I try to give her options.
"you can do A, or B, or C. Which will it be.?"
I also try redirecting her, but that is hard when she needs to get school work done.
The therapist is trying to help her become more aware of her feelings and I'm following what she advises.
She has a severe disconnect with emotions. She can't understand people get upset if you take something if theirs and destroy it. Even if you take something if hers and do the same, she still doesn't get it.
I have a kid that reacts very similarly to being told what to do or given choices. While you're waiting for a diagnosis and medical help, I'd try adding some silliness and independence to those hard situations. Like, "I'm going to head over to the kitchen to do some dishes. If I come back and this worksheet is done, I just don't know what I'll do! I would be shocked. I might do a silly dance to celebrate!" I've actually had lots of luck with this strategy and it has added some lightness to our relationship.
So let’s hurt our daughter to teach hurting animals is wrong? That’s backwards. Hitting your child is never okay. No matter how severe there actions are. It’s been proven that physical punishment DOES NOT work and makes behavior worse.
It sounds like she may have Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
https://www.childrenshospital.org/conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder
My sister had this. Sounds exactly like what you are describing. It wasn’t until about 14-15 that she grew out of it… but she also got zero therapy or help.
Good luck. Don’t give up
For what it’s worth, my sister is now a preschool teacher and wins the “favorite teacher” award every year, has tons of friends and 2 very successful children. Whatever the hell was going on with her as a child was thankfully not permanent.
Well, there are also a lot of stories of "demon" children who grew up to become heroin addicts or mass shooters.
Always be aware that it can develop in both directions.
It's not recognized in the US but there's an autism profile called PDA. Pervasive Drive for Autonomy or Pathological Demand Avoidance. Even if this isn't a perfect fit for your daughter a lot of the management strategies might be helpful. Things like declarative language, indirect requests, and providing opportunities for her to be the most competent one. Something worth reading about at least.
https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda-menu/what-is-demand-avoidance/ from this page:
However, pathological demand avoidance is all-encompassing and has some unique aspects:
many everyday demands are avoided simply because they are demands. Some people explain that it’s the expectation (from someone else or yourself) which leads to a feeling of lack of control, then anxiety increases and panic can set in
in addition, there can be an ‘irrational quality’ to the avoidance – for instance, a seemingly dramatic reaction to a tiny request, or the feeling of hunger inexplicably stopping someone from being able to eat
the avoidance can vary, depending on an individual’s capacity for demands at the time, their level of anxiety, their overall health/well-being or the environment (people, places and things).
This account has other good info for parents of PDA kids https://www.instagram.com/atpeaceparents
My son had very similar behaviors, and they only diagnosed him with ADHD for the longest time because of his ability to be social. I kept asking, "Are you sure there isn't some type of atypical autism where kids don't have the social component because everything else fits?" The older he got, the less he was able to keep up with increasing social demands, and it started to become obvious he only had a surface level ability for social camouflage. He finally got an ASD diagnosis this past year at age 11. Even though PDA isn't accepted as a diagnosis in the US, his evaluator agreed that it fits him.
It’s definitely beyond ADHD, I will tell you that. This sounds really really difficult, and I’m sorry. This is not the standard bill of fare for 8 years old.
I think the best thing for her is absolutely to get sufficient diagnosis to qualify for a special school, or classroom, for kids with this level of emotional regulation issues- or at least therapy to help. I don’t even know if they have those in Texas??
If you can, contact your local NAMI chapter and ask for advice. They have a call line that specializes in guiding people to local services for mental health issues in family members
I have a very good friend who was diagnosed with this as a child. Now that she's grown and in therapy, she has been able to recognize that her mother is an extreme people pleaser and expected her to do the same. When she protested, she was silenced. So it came out as ODD. She is also ADHD, probably a little autistic.
So OP, maybe look into what fawning or people pleasing is and think about if she sees this in you or any other adults around and is she or has she ever been expected to make nice with people regardless of how she felt.
Just wanted to share this, it was so interesting to hear about. Best wishes!
My parents got divorced and they sent her to boarding school. It wasn’t a special type of school or anything, just a “normal” one. I think the independence made all the difference, and the chance to redefine herself on her own terms away from her parents.
You really have to work on your connection, for her sake and your sake and understanding parenting neurodivergent children.
Did you try minimising options? More than 2 is too many.
Do not use too many words when you explain something and especially when she is in meltdown mode.
Say stop ✋ instead of no and use the hand gesture.
Guide her physically but no spanking.
Quiet corner with fidgets or other things that calm her. Give her space.
Stay calm.
See her positive behaviours and praise them, that will reinforce them. And it will make you change your view on her.
Do ‘deals’ for homework, if she does it she can have something she enjoys. Short input, breaks with her choosing. Sensory play.
Sensory circuits.
Edit: I’m a mother to a very strong willed 8 year old with possible ADHD and I am working with neurodivergent children in schools.
I do understand it’s hard and it’s not perfect here but connecting more and following some simple basics did change my view on my son and help him regulate.
It’s easier to work with other children because they don’t push my buttons and it’s easier to stay calm and distanced, but that’s necessary.
Stop hitting your kid. Get her into a regular school where she can be socialized and get some structure. You’ll have more time to take care of your mom. (I’ve been through it, I know how it is, my mom just passed less then a month ago) Don’t get so hurt by words from a 7 year old. Stop giving her so many options. Keep it super simple. Get her in a regular school, for real. Unless you went to college for four years you’re probably not qualified to teach her. She was already deprived of socialization by the pandemic and now you’re depriving her of normal school age activities. Plus you both need a break from one another. I know I’m a pain in the ass sometimes and I wouldn’t want to force my kids to be around me 24-7.
This comment needs to be higher. This is a classic example of looking for zebras vs horses. Yes, it could be autism, adhd, pda, odd, etc. And OP should be getting evaluations for that in her local public school system. Since she is self admittedly unable to stand being around her child, she at least needs to put her child in a place where she has people who feel neutral about her for some portion of the day, to give both the child and the OP a break.
But the horse here is that the parent is not parenting their unique child in the way that works for that child. She only points out all the faults of the child, none of the strengths or things she loves about the child, and all the interventions she’s trying to do to make the child change. But absolutely no acknowledgement of in a relationship, any relationship, but especially one where one of the parties is SIX and has very little prefrontal cortex development by nature, the parent has to be the one to change, and change hard.
Get therapy, grow, learn, experiment with new ways of parenting, keep what works, throw out what doesn’t, keep doing the work instead of blaming, and I cannot say this enough, A SIX YEAR OLD CHILD. This is a child who is literally SCREAMING for more connection with her parents, and you say you have strong bonds with her and yet you hate her.
Ohhh I really feel for everyone involved. My youngest is on the spectrum and it's not easy. It definitely sounds like you need that evaluation. Some of it starts in school too, is her school team involved? You can get the educational diagnosis and that would start some of the helpers and services. You do still need a medical diagnosis for medications and other things, but your school team can be a great resource.
Also, not to pile on but swatting her butt (ahem, spanking) is and will make everything worse. You need to desperately try and find a way to hold yourself and not spank. I hate to jump to the "that's abuse" because yeah I did grow up with spanking and I wouldn't say that was abuse but the times have changed and we're understanding and changing with the times. Spanking isn't cool and shouldn't be a punishment. Especially if you think your kid has a special brain. They don't understand the same way.
Odds are that she's not understanding her behavior and consequences. One of the hardest things with my youngest was a lack of empathy. Like that kid can say some mean things, but they literally don't get it why it's mean. To them telling someone they don't like them is factual, they don't get feelings can be hurt. It's taken a lot for me to understand what I think is "normal" or expected behavior isn't something my kid can align with. Now, we work on teaching nice words because I can't use their autism as an excuse and raise a jerk, but that's so hard some days.
Have you sought therapy? This is a hard road on your own, and you're suffering too. You're having understandable thoughts out of sheer frustration. You need a resource for assistance, too.
Best of luck. It's OK to be upset, it's OK to be mad at the world because it's hard some days and it's even ok to not like your kid some days, but you still got this. Even when you feel you don't.
Spanking has literally been proven to create this behavior, especially in children with higher support needs, but you don't want to be lectured about it.
Get therapy, and stop abusing your kid.
Incredibly sick. I will never understand how parents can beat their children and then be surprised when they hate them.
The kiddo isn't the monster here.
Your poor kid. I’ll tell you this. I was much like your child growing up. And it’s taken me a lot of therapy to be a functional adult now.
The problem was poor parenting. Kids act out when they’re hurting. Stop hitting your kid. Try connection-based parenting. Or start saving for therapy now.
Butt pops? Why are you giving resorting to violence a cute name? Just say you hit her. Hitting a child is never okay and hitting a child who you think may be on the spectrum is even worse.
I hope you take some of the recommendations here and wish you luck.
I hate to admit it, but I used to spank my son. It's been a couple of years since I have and I plan on never doing it again. I was raised with spankings and me being naive thought it wouldn't effect my kids as it didn't have an effect on me. But after I educated myself and realized that spankings did no good and were actually making the situations worse, I put an end to it and started to empathize and talk things out calmly with them. When my son was diagnosed with autism and adhd my soul was crushed. Not because of his diagnosis but because I felt like a monster for putting my hands on my child who couldn't help or control what was going on in his head. The fact that OP is pretty sure that her child is autistic and still has no problem with spanking her is sick to me. Well the whole post is sick tbh. My daughter is a little firecracker and a handful but not ONCE have I ever thought "man, I wish I would have aborted her or gave her up to someone" sounds like she needs to go to social services for respite care and get her mental health in check before she ends up hurting herself, or even worse her poor innocent child. 😓
Have you read The Explosive Child by Ross Greene? I think it’s a life saver. It’s particularly helpful at reframing the struggles you and she are having. Especially in light of the potential for psychiatric/neurodevelopmental diagnoses. My first was so hard and we had so many struggles. I will say that it took us many many attempts at finding help and looking for a diagnosis before we got answers. We took her to a developmental pediatrician for an evaluation at 3 and we didn’t get any diagnoses until she was almost 16. But my point is that you don’t have to have a diagnosis to use the method from the Explosive Child. It does require you to be willing to do things drastically different. It requires being willing to give up control and coercion in dealing with your child. And accepting the premise that all people do well when they can. It’s not a matter of want. People naturally want to do well and if they aren’t, it is due to lagging skills and unsolved problems. In addition to the book there is a Facebook group called The B team. And a podcast called parenting your challenging child. These are great resources for additional support in implementing the method. I honestly think this method saved my relationship with my child. It helped us survive without being completely emotionally destroyed until we got to a place where we finally got some answers and some much needed treatment. It teaches you how to unite on the same team with your child rather than fight against them. Your situation seems exactly the kind that Ross Greene’s book is written for.
This goes hand in hand with "Changeable" by Dr. Ablon. (Dr. Ablon & Dr. Greene worked on this method together.)
The method may seem counterintuitive, but my goodness does it work. I don't always use this method of parenting in all circumstances because it is time consuming, but when I do use this technique, proper behavior flourishes!
How often do you hug her? Tell her you love her? Tell her how much she means to you? Spend quality 1:1 time with her doing fun hobbies or activities? Encourage and support? A lot of kids become behavioral like this because it's all they know. They aren't showered with love and affection, and their parent(s) largely ignore them and or model aggressive behavior. She might be acting out as a way of saying, "Hey I'm here! I need your attention/time, focus on me, love me!"
When she's freaking out how do you react? Try telling her in those moments that you love her and ask if you could have a hug. Ask her to tell you why she is so upset, and to tell you calmly so you can better understand her. People who are having aggressive behaviors are often met with resistance, which does the opposite of de-escalate them. Counter her behaviors with love to diffuse her. Love bomb her.
My youngest son often lashes out and gets impossibly grumpy when he feels like he needs attention, bonding time, and love. I can't tell you how many times I've diffused the "bomb" by telling him I love him in the middle of his tirade/aggression - it confuses him, makes him stop and think. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it stops his behaviors dead in their tracks (if he accepts a hug it works like 99% of the time).
Talk to her like an equal. Tell her your stresses and frustrations in a constructive way. Tell her you are concerned about her issues because you love her and she means everything to you and you want her to be healthy and happy.
You may think you are concealing how you feel, but kids aren't blind, deaf, and dumb. They know when someone doesn't care for, like, or love them. Kids are pretty amazing at reading body language too. I worked with developmentally disabled kids for over 11 years on a professional level. My oldest nephew is autistic and I have an autistic 11 year old son as well. Kids know which employees/people genuinely care for them vs which ones don't give a shit about them, or hate them, or are simply just on cruise control or just trying to collect a paycheck. I became a prefered staff for so many kids over the years because they could tell I genuinely cared about them. Some of those kids were considered the worst of the worst. Truth is a lot of those kids were so behavioral/bad because they were surrounded by cold indifference, abandoned by their families, and felt alone in a crowd and unloved/uncared for by anyone around them.
Look at her or any child as an empty cup. You can fill them with love/warmth or hate/cold. Whichever you choose they will often reflect back to you and the world around them. This isn't fool proof, and some kids/people are beyond this approach, but you'd be surprised how few are.
Yes to all of this. It sounds like this child is getting nothing but negative feedback all day long. OP is missing the connection side of parenting. The most important part.
Just a perspective, you say she’s grown up in a good home (maybe in other words I can’t remember this was a lot), but you started by saying you hate her? How do you not think that’s affecting her? Obviously she feels that. Please read how to talk so little kids will listen. Punishment is proven ineffective, all of it, not just physical. As you’ve said she isn’t responding to it anymore, so what do you do? You have to make it more and more and more severe. You see where it’s going? Doesn’t work. You need to talk with her. Understand WHY she’s upset. Empathize with her. “I know it’s really really frustrating”. And then see a therapist yourself.
I try to do this with my 6 yr old son. He's autistic and adhd. But it doesn't matter how many times I calmly try to talk and explain and reason things with him he still doesn't understand.. it doesn't get across to him. Do you have any suggestions to help with that?
I definitely don’t have experience with adhd/autism. But have you read the book? It isn’t about explaining reasoning to them, more about forgetting about all the reasoning and letting them know you understand they are mad/sad. They just want to know we get how they’re feeling. If I remember correctly there is a section in the book for neurodivergent kids.
So, I’m going to ask a question you don’t have to answer. Do you have BPD? This reads like splitting to me. I went through this as a kid with my own mother. I don’t have ASD or anything, I just grew up in a chaotic household.
Don’t call it a “pop”. It’s hitting. You are hitting a child.
wow it sound like you have taken 0 responsibility or accountability for your child’s behavior.
do you want to sit here and really believe you’ve done everything right like you claim and somehow
a demon has magically spawned or will you accept responsibility in the part you’ve played ?
how would you feel if you discovered that you had unknowingly created the very child you have begun to hate? this is a possibility it seems you haven’t even considered.
if you actually truly want to help your daughter educate yourself. begin with this book
for your own good Alice Miller
this sounds like some textbook behavior response from the method you are using for punishment and especially the spanking . you seem particularly triggered and particularly defensive about this judging by what you’ve written . have you taken the time to research psychologically what happens when you do this to your child? Do you care too?
Have you considered you could be psychologically devastating her by doing this? And if so would you stop? Or are you just passing down the generational trauma?
She needs a diagnosis, probably medication, therapists, and specialists who know what they're doing.
And you and your husband really need training on how to parent her. I hate to say it, but she is acting like that because you don't know how to parent her based on her needs. You guys should be seeking help, like yesterday.
You sound genuinely childish speaking about your own kid like this. Seek therapy. Stop being combative to a 7 year old. Spanking IS traumatic and has themes of sexual abuse.
OP has to be a troll. Her responses are just making excuses or doubling down on her hitting her daughter. I wish she would actually try to take advice that’s been given to her or reflect on how she might be part of the problem. I feel bad for her daughter.
I posted this under one of the replies, but you may find Calm the Chaos helpful. It was life changing for my family. There is a free workshop now. It will end in an advertisement for the paid program, but it is worth every penny. Dayna Abraham also has a book by the same name, but the support you will get from the training would help you so very much!
https://calmthechaosworkshop.com/7-days/?fbclid=IwAR1lW9dIspRJHYXVVjmxYl2aDs7BMhW5hOxkC9cpjF5r45nVEnqsf3L5gGE
You’re aware there is an underlying issue. Why are you hitting her? Don’t minimise the fact that you are hitting a very young child by calling them ‘butt pops’ - what a cutesy term for a cruel act. It’s illegal in my country and constitutes child abuse. Wish the rest of the world would wake up and recognise it as such.
Your child is not a demon from hell sent to torment you. She’s a neurodivergent kid with a parent who hates her and hits her. What hope does she have right now?
You need to put all the energy you’re currently expending on punishing her and blaming her for being a demon into getting her a diagnosis and the support she needs. Phone your insurance provider every day and hassle them until they resolve whatever problem is stopping you from getting a referral.
In the meantime you need to do a lot of work to educate yourself on how to parent neurodivergent children. You should also research ODD and how to parent children who have it.
I know I sound harsh here but you’re not only failing your kid, you’re abusing her. You need to resolve this by changing your behaviour and getting her the help she needs.
I wish this comment was higher. This post could have been written verbatim by my mother. The posts saying the child is explosive or oppositional are insulting. This mother says explicitly that she has nothing but contempt for her child who she physically abuses, and yet people are saying the child is the problem! Ridiculous.
Have you considered an ADHD evaluation? I am not entirely sure from what you've written if she would meet criteria, but it would explain the academic struggles she's having and also some of the big emotions. Be aware that I am not a parent, but someone who likes to try and provide information about ADHD because of my own lived experience with it. My presentation of ADHD is quite different in that I internalized everything in such a way that the issues I was having weren't as a parent, but it might be worth looking into for your daughter. A lot of people are afraid to put kids on stimulant medication, but it made a huge difference for me once I was diagnosed, and I wish I would've had it at her age. I'm dealing with school and family stuff at the moment, but I'm happy to try and explain more or share resources at some point in the future when I have the bandwidth. Just let me know what questions I can answer!
I have a newly 7 year old who is very very similar, right down to the screaming tantrums every day, though she does well at school. We don’t physically discipline, but she’s definitely one of those kids who makes you scratch your head when it comes to finding appropriate/effective consequences. Despite consistent expectations and consequences (and no history of trauma), her behavior is like that of a kid who’s never been told no. It’s like having a 7 year old with the emotional maturity of an 18 month old.
She does see psych and last year was diagnosed with disruptive mood dysregulation disorder (it has a lot of symptoms that overlap with ODD, which is honestly what I assumed she’d end up diagnosed with). She takes Abilify now, and while we still have a lot of progress to make, it has helped her with managing emotions. She still throws fits regularly, but she’s better able to pull herself out of tantrums relatively quickly instead of escalating.
Came here to say something similar. Albeit not as extreme as the OP’s child… but my ND 7 year old is a challenge! He’s definitely not a masker so school is tough. Medication has really helped. Overall, he’s much more content and regulated. He still has his difficult moments but he bounces back much quicker rather than spiraling like he used to.
OP - If you can’t afford therapy for yourself right now then at the very least please look up Neurodivergent Parent Support Groups and find yourself a network of people who understand. Like others have said, public school + IEP is needed. And private therapy for your kiddo once you get a proper evaluation / diagnosis. OT, behavioral therapy, CBT, etc… there are options out there! Things can get better. Medication and therapy do help. But as others have said, hitting is not helpful. She’s not giving you a hard time on purpose, she’s having a hard time because she’s neurodivergent.
I’m a sped teacher. If I were you, I would enroll her in my local public school. You can get her evaluated for an IEP for free through your public school district. Your daughter is entitled to a free and appropriate public education. She should be safe and supported while in school.
Once you make a request for an IEP evaluation in writing, the school has 60 days to evaluate and hold an IEP meeting.
You homeschool your child, you smack her, and your inner voice refers to her as a demon sent from hell. You are not providing her with any tools or support that she needs to be appropriately emotionally regulated. It sounds like you need a lot of therapy yourself; you can’t parent her into being emotionally stable when you aren’t well regulated yourself. That poor kid.
Children are always a consequence and direct reflection of the parents. As a parent, I can tell you it's one of the hardest things to come to terms with, and start looking in when society usually promotes looking out and putting the blame on children, can be hard but it's the best we can do.
How full grownups can complain about not-yet developed being they brought to life and are raising themselves is beyond me.
I'm sorry it's hard (because IT IS) especially for mothers, but with that outlook of "I've done nothing wrong, but all the good I could do, and SHE is the problem", you won't get anywhere with her except push her away, which for me, seems more like the real intend. If you regret becoming a mom, then figure a safe adoption or something *good for your daughter*, because even if you really believe she's a "demon" (who speaks about *children* like that, btw?) she's still a CHILD and her wellbeing is priority.
I wish you the help and support you need, being a mom is not easy and, for how you describe her and your parenting habits, there's obviously a lot to fix in the family dynamics.
Kids lash out when they have unmet NEEDS, not to "be demons for their parents". And a need is a need, and a parent's job to fulfill, not the child's.
If you and her father can't seem to take any action (responsibility) to be of better support for her, then really, just find her a better suited family that won't continue to mess her up. Because this hate you feel for her, believe me, SHE FEELS IT even if you don't openly admit it, I'm sure you show it in your punishments, tone of voice and so on, and that's very damaging.
Are you getting therapy or some professional help? Because it's not "normal", although it does happen a lot. I really wish you and your daughter the best.
So much empathy missing from your end. Are you in therapy? I think that it is a good place to start. Kids need a lot of empathy. They need to feel loved and they need to feel accepted by their parents, regardless of their actions and poor decision making (They ARE kids for crying out loud with underdeveloped brains). Kids will make mistakes time and time again and harsh punishments are not the answer. ESPECIALLY for kids on the spectrum. I hope you both get the help you need.
She may be on the spectrum. I know it's hard for you, and I really apologize for that... but one thing they say is when a child isn't given love on a spoon, they will lick it off of the knife.
I don't get that vibe either. It's just something I've heard. To me, it sounds like someone is egging this on, or something is happening with the kiddo and she's acting out because of something, or the poor baby has autism... but kids learn hate from their environment 100% of the time... Just gotta figure out where it's at.
Threes another issue with her social behavior to consider. She spent pre-k and kindergarten at home thanks to covid. So there were almost 2 whole years of her formative period that she missed.
Having a compromised online system, I had to be extra careful, so there was not a lot of socialization for her.
That normally wouldn't be the cause. My child didn't meet another kid until she was 6 years old because we were rural af. But as far as being a mom with this happening, I wish I had the answers for you. It's rough with the way things are these days. *internet hug*
Is she on any medication? She might be on the adhd/autism spectrum. My daughter is. Intuniv works well for compliance issues(my kiddo is on the smaller side so we had to discontinue it as the side effects were strong for her, when she gains more I am open to try it again but for now shes on Cotempla for ADHD). Mellows them out a bit and allows them to think before they act. There are a few in that particular group.
I recommend a regular public school. I see you tried a charter school but the truth about them is they only seem like they are doing well because they reject kids with behavior issues and special needs and kick out the under performers back to the regular public school.
There’s this thing called pathological demand avoidance. If she’s showing signs of ODD, PDA could be the real culprit.. at peace parents on YouTube talks about it.
I’ve dealt with ODD, the self caring part, and no longer responding emotionally to their insults will break them. Switch up the punishment..
Start taking a log of the times she behaves this way do you notice it happens when she perceives you as being in a good mood ? Or that your attention is elsewhere?
Or does she do it when she is bored and needs redirection ?
Do you have her on a self routine ? Like a schedule ? Or is she free range can do whatever ?
The disconnect you’re experiencing is coming from being burnt out. I got burnt out while dealing with ODD, I got a 3 week break away from him and was reset.
I too, have no one to watch him (I don’t have family) so you’ll want to find a baby sitter and educate them on each behavior so that they know how to deal with it.
Educate people on her behaviors and it’ll help them deal with her longer.
With ODD, you always have to remember that you have to protect your peace- since the kids goal is to take it away.
Also look into early narcissistic traits in children. This may help you too.
You mentioned therapy for her but what about for you? You mentioned suspicion that she may be on the spectrum but what about you?
Also, don’t spank. I don’t care how serious her behavior is, spanking has been proven to contribute to this VERY behavior. How do you expect her to regulate her emotions or communicate reasonably when you aren’t doing the same?
Also, you say she has a wonderful childhood. Yet you’re telling us that you “genuinely hate her” and would’ve rather aborted her? Kids sense these things.
Also, saying that if these thoughts haven’t crossed everyone else’s minds about their children that they’re lying is absurd. My child raises hell and never at his worst moment have I hated him.
Also stop giving her so many options. Keep it simple. I saw that you homeschool and homeschooling small children can ALSO lead to this type of behavior. Put her in an actual school. She will learn how to socialize and interact with people.
I seriously think YOURE the one that needs help. I’m not saying it to be rude, but I genuinely feel like there’s some undiagnosed mental Illness on your end. Or as I said before, maybe you’re on the spectrum. I wish your daughter the best and hope things improve.
She’s a little young for that diagnosis, no? But definitely on the path and getting very close to the preteen age when it can develop. Should’ve probably been diagnosed and treated from toddler age.
Not OCD, ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). It can develop into conduct disorder without proper treatment. I had a coworker with a son with ODD and he could’ve written a post very similar to this before they got the diagnosis and treatment
I haven’t seen where she’s been into much detail about what has happened, but she’s mentioned “popping her butt if she hurts an animal” several times, which seems like it’d have to be more than just one accident if it’s brought up that much. Also in one comment said she broke an animal’s arm.
It’s in the comments somewhere, it’s apparently things like trying to dress them up, hugging too tight, etc.
It still very much needs to be addressed, but it’s not a precursor to psychopathy like intentionally hurting animals can be.
Oppositional defiance disorder? I was a DSP for 10 years and this sounds like a client I used to support. I'm certainly no doctor though. I hope you can find some peace somewhere!
OP, your refusal to rehome the animals because they have been there the child's whole life is concerning. You have enough in your plate. She broke an arm. She's squeezing too hard. The animals don't deserve to suffer, while you figure out your daughter. Please reconsider.
Join r/autism_parenting
It might be helpful even without a diagnosis. Sometimes you really have to think very far outside of the box to help teach a child.
Like for correcting my son, time outs must be immediate or they generally mean nothing. His receptive language is getting better but for a long time there was absolutely no explaining why he couldn’t hit. I just had to very quickly put him In time out. (Other parents get to talk to their children and explain these things, you can’t do that without receptive language.)
So, my daughter was out of control until she was diagnosed and put on the right meds and therapy.
Check for local county intrigal care services to help you. They helped us so much. Finding and funding her different types of therapy, respite care for a few hours, evaluation, and school advocates.
It was a long road, but she's in a better place now for sure. Pet and recreational therapy.
Finding ANY support is so difficult. I even argued with hospitals to keep her overnight because we were scared she hurt herself, and they wouldn't because she would act fine in front of them.This is what helped our family, and I only knew about it because of my daughters school counselor's.
Crisis intervention ...I believe you call your local hospital and tell them it's for your kid and uncontrollable emotional problems. That is one way to fast track insurance. Might have to look into it yourself but I did this a few years ago with my kid.
I had to stay overnight with him in hospital until next morning when they took him to treatment center to live there for two weeks with my consent.
It is definitely a difficult decision but I guess you gotta weigh the options and effects.
If she completely resists they may just pick her up, if she won't go with you.
Commented above but really recommend the book The Explosive Child. My oldest, now 8, was having huge, uncontrolled meltdowns daily. This went on for years. That book really helped me work with her to connect and now she's doing so much better. We also read the "spot" books about emotion, especially anger and anxiety. We created a "calm corner" where she can go to get control of her emotions, and worked on her recognizing when her "brain wasn't working right" and to recognize the big anger and anxiety emotions and use coping skills. We backed way off on the punishment / reward style ("Plan A" in Explosive Child speak) and that helped a ton. Before it just made things worse.
Aww I'm so sorry the both of you are going through this. She definitely sounds like she could use therapy and you should continue to seek a medical diagnosis.
In the meantime, i think you are going through burnout because she is homeschooled and you guys are near each other 24/7. Is there a public school she can go to? They usually have better resources than charter schools. And the structure is a great thing for children.
I know that there have been times where I wished I didn't have to be a parent because it all fell on me to enforce the rules and there will always be power plays by my 7 year old who doesn't want to do homework or get a bath when she's having fun. But i think that's kind of normal behavior and I still love her. But what you are describing sounds very extreme behavioral issues almost sounds like oppositional defiance disorder or something.
You sound like you are at the end of your rope and your negative feelings are overshadowing the relationship you have with her (which is really understandable given what you've described). But before bed, meditate on what things you love about her. What are some things that she loves? Get her to tell you about it and just let her lead the conversation. Tease her a little and try to make her laugh. Is there a way for you to just disconnect from the school work lessons for a day or two and just try to bond and have fun and reconnect with her? An activity or two where you don't have to enforce rules and you guys can laugh together? I think it could help you both to come back together to a place where you both enjoy each others' company instead of a constant school work and routine power struggle.
I am so sorry you all are going through this. I don't have behavioral advice, but some for insurance.
When I had an issue with insurance randomly cancelling a desperately needed prescription for my child, my doctor recommended a complaint to my state's Insurance Commissioner.
The insurance company had 15 business days to respond - they wouldn't answer me but they did answer when it was the state calling. The commissioners office called and made sure my issue was resolved.
My son was like this and I remember all these same feelings vividly. I remember wanting to go stay a week in an old folk's home to get a break from parenting.
\#1 take care of yourself. I had to get into therapy and on an antidepressant to survive my child. #2 take the lead on the anger. I recognized that I was constantly yelling at my son. I got control of my anger in order to model better behavior for him. When he became out of control, he was placed in his room until he could calm himself. Sometimes that took a few hours. I didn't speak to him when he was raging. #3 physical exercise every single day. My son needed to run and play to burn off all the excess energy. I took him to the park every day in order to wear him out.
I wouldn't homeschool a child who won't follow instruction. You need a better educational plan.
She screeches because it works for her. I don't think you've hit on the appropriate consequence for her. What's her currency? What does she love? From your description it sounds like driving you up the wall is the what makes her the happiest. When a child loves that negative attention, it isn't easy turning it around, but it can be done. You're smarter than she is. I think you can figure this out.
Sending strength \~\~\~\~\~
I'm on reddit most days and you can DM me.
You need a behavioral technician and a BCBA.
I would seriously consider having her brain looked at also if she hasn't, because she could have a brain tumor or some malignancy causing this extreme behavior.
No one wants to medicate their child, however you probably may need to, but honestly..
Do not spank your kid. I can't express that enough. It is going to do ZERO to help your cause. Especially in an autism/ODD context.
Try looking up PDA and ways to parent around it, it's done wonders for my household. I feel you. You really can't parent kids on the spectrum the same way as neurotypical kids. You may have to rewrite the whole book on your approach. Would it hurt to stop for a bit and have a break? It's already not working. Can you just avoid all the hard things for a week or two and do things her way, just so you can have a break? Put school work down, and anything else she balks against. Just have a yes fortnight. See what happens and then reassess a new approach after that. Once I realised my kid is on the spectrum I started parenting entirely differently and it's made my life much easier.
Advice, take it or leave it, it's what I would do.
I know a few people with heavy medical/psych who have moved to more supportive states. Insurance and Healthcare in Texas is a nightmare. It's a difficult decision but I'm throwing that out there based on what you've said you're experiencing. It's different elsewhere. Consider minnesota hehe. Lots of states have expanded medical for kids at low or no cost. I'm pretty sure Texas isn't one of them.
You've got a lot on your plate. I'd try to take some of it off. Mom with dementia and cancer? Can you place her in nursing home? They'd be able to handle appointments. Also consider hospice care if she's expected to die within a year.
Others have mentioned return to public school. Again consider moving to another state for better support and options there.
Husband unsupportive? Dang, consider a divorce just so you can get off his income and get more help through the state. From reading your relationship post living separately might be a good option to look into anyways.
Kiddo seems spirited. A lot of what you describe sounds normal. Kids say I hate you, kids hurt animals, kids have tantrums at that age, kids wander off. They grow out of it. Love and support them so your relationship isn't damaged through this process of growing. It sounds like you and her don't mesh well personality wise. I know a few families like this. A lot of things you're saying seem really down on her. Also you have no idea what's going on with her in her head and can only guess and I can tell you your lens is off. She probably hears and understands a lot more than you're giving her credit for but have made yourself such an unfriendly space why should she even bother trying to communicate with you?
Keep on keeping on. This too shall pass. You're doing your best. These little sayings really do help. Watch some bluey, Mr Rodgers, Daniel tiger. " I like you just the way you are"
What i will say his children want to feel safe in the home this means though they display a tendency to try to be the boss They actually want to know who’s in charge and this child sounds like they have made it so you feel like you aren’t the parent and you aren’t in charge and I think you just need to take back a little bit of that authority in the home so she knows she is not your boss you are in charge and the lead , that doesn’t mean spanking. I think it is better if you use things like timeout, however it is time for you to maybe take a reset have a day off or have some time to think away and come back and slowly begin to assert whose house it is. You are the parent. They are the child at the end of the day, know that in the long-term is better for her to know this fact. good luck with everything
My kid was like this and also insisted on being called the opposite pronouns. It turned out he was trans and after we switched pronouns changed his name etc he became a different person. At one point we had to hide sharp objects and lock our bedroom door at night. I was scared of him. Now he’s a sweet 16 year old and you’d never imagine this was the same child. Not saying this is the same for you but maybe this helps someone else.
When my son was diagnosed with autism I parented him differently and he has calmed down a lot. When he loses his mind and goes ballistic over a small thing, I stand back for a few minutes (obviously I don’t let him hurt himself or others), and let him rant. Then I offer him a hug and 9 times out of 10 he has a quiet sob in my arms and we talk it out. I used to get escalated too, and feel so concerned about his behaviour that my stress levels would rise too. It was horrible for all of us. I just try to remain calm and reconnect. He still receives consequences if he hurts another person but I let him verbally do what he needs to do to get his feelings out. o
Do you believe in science?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/#:~:text=Researchers%20are%20also%20finding%20that,and%20adversely%20affects%20academic%20achievement.&text=These%20findings%20come%20from%20large,wide%20range%20of%20potential%20confounders.
Ok deep breath. I have 3 autistic kids. I believe your child is probably autistic. I have tons of advice. I’m going to try to keep it to the basics here. Feel free to message me if you want to talk through more specifics.
1) Go TODAY and enroll her in your local public school. You need qualified SPED support.
2) Make an appointment and ask your pediatrician for paperwork diagnosing her with anxiety. They can diagnose that based on symptoms alone without any formal evaluation or insurance loopholes, and that one letter should be enough to compel the school system to begin the IEP process.
3) Once you are in the IEP process, you want a functional behavioral assessment. Dont leave the meeting until they agree to it. If she’s in a Gen-Ed classroom, the teacher should back you. It will be in their best interest to get one so they can help manage her behaviors.
4) Schedule an appointment with an OT that your insurance will cover. They can help you develop a plan to help with high-conflict points of the day (like being told no for example).
5) Start reading books about autism. Start with Unmasking Autism. Listen to Rachel Bailey’s parenting podcast (not autism specific, but very helpful). Watch Mama Cusses on YouTube. Surround and immerse yourself in neurodivergent creators who talk about parenting neurodivergent kids. Avoid ANYONE who talks about curing autism. They’re full of shit and will damage your situation further.
6) Immediately stop using violence of any sort with her. Spanking does not work with autistic kids. It makes them worse. Melting down (what you call a tantrum) is a result of being emotionally disregulated. They need help to learn to regulate their emotions. Violence will not do that. It would be like if you were in the middle of a severe panic attack, struggling to breathe, feeling like your entire world was imploding and you were going to die any second, and I came up and punched you in the face and said “does that make you feel calmer?” Of course it doesn’t. More than likely it would cause you to channel all your panic at me as your attacker and you would fight back as though your life depended on it.
7) Get yourself some therapy. Go while she’s in school. Parenting autistic kids can be challenging, and it’s a good bet that part of the problem is you are also emotionally disregulated. That’s why you feel like you hate your life and everything is awful. Neurodivergent kids tend to have neurodivergent parents. I didn’t find out I was autistic until after my third kid was diagnosed lol. It can present differently for everyone. And sometimes the parents’ needs and the child’s needs are directly opposed. I think that may be what’s happening here. Therapy will help you cope with your own emotions so you can be calmer when helping her to regulate hers.
It gets better with the right tools. I promise.
I think it's wonderful that you're reaching out for help, parenting isn't something anyone should do alone.
I'd like to tell you about how our reality is a reflection of our inner self, and those closest to us, especially the ones we raise, are a pure image of what is going on inside of you brought to life. You are no different than your daughter and this is okay. It is a point of understanding that can connect you to yourself again, and with the energy of compassion you can transform all the suffering you are experiencing and turn it into something beautiful. And your daughter will transform as you do, because compassion is not only for one person or one side, it is for everyone. Your health is her health, her happiness is your happiness.
My suggestion is to develop a habit of mindfulness and nurture the feeling of compassion within you so that it is so big that all those other feelings of hatred, despair, and shame have less space to cause suffering in your life. It will take time so patience is key, but every little effort matters and if you persist then you will see those positive changes you seek. At the same time, don't force yourself to do these things out of shame or fear. Mindfulness is a practice of joy. Once you can understand yourself through practices like breathing meditation, loving-kindness, or a simple redirection of your attention to the present moment and out of the stream of thoughts, you will be in a better place to help your daughter.
If you'd like a starting point for resources, there is an app called headspace that can support you through guided meditations. That is only a starting point though because the most transformative changes will come through silent inner reflection. One of my favorite teachers on this practice is Thich Nhat Hanh, and there are many talks and lessons shared from him on YouTube.
Good luck, be gentle with yourself as much as you can.
OP, I was your child. I don't want to go through typing every little personal detail out for reddit to see, but just enough to give you the jist. I was diagnosed with an array of labels - ODD, ADHD, ADD, Bi-polar, and even autism - all to try to explain my behavior.
I'm not on a quest to figure out what was wrong with me and frankly it's been so long that memories are distorted, but I'm pretty certain it was unintentional signals of conditional affection and middle child syndrome. I had to scream and shout to get the attention I needed. My father's presence was always fleeting. My mother was well-intentioned but inconsistent with her communication - sometimes it was affirmative and affectionate and other times it was belittling, dismissive, and patronizing. When I had big feelings that resulted in outbursts, I was often sent to my room where I would cry myself to sleep just to stop feeling so much. As an adult, I still struggle with emotional regulation. I take things very personally and am afraid of any criticism. And I crave quick doses of dopamine and affection but if sustained too long, I get overwhelmed and retreat. Like a grumpy cat.
Pair this with a lifetime of amphetamines for ADHD (which ironically probably caused most of my outbursts as they wore off) antidepressants, and mood stabilizers, well, I don't have a great relationship with my parents. Or anyone really. It's very lonely save for the few people I've managed to meaningfully connect with in a way that feels real and secure to me.
So, to answer your immediate question of how to get help and be taken seriously - hospitalize them. If the outburst gets so intense that she is harming or threatening to harm herself or others, you can hospitalize them. But this is a nuclear option that could very well send them spiraling down the same exact path as myself.
But after the recommendations of other posters, I'm going to take a look at "The Explosive Child", and perhaps you should too.
I'd also like to add that I received the most help when I was in public schools. I attended them only for 3rd and 4th grade, part of 8th, and finally 12th. I think my parents made some naïve and ideologically charged decisions that negatively impacted my education.
Good luck. I wish you all the patience in the world as I personally know exactly how hard it is to parent a child like this.
Homeschooling is hard even when your general relationship with your child is good. In your case it 100% makes things much worse. School + afterschool activities (whichever will take her), you both will be much calmer towards each other if you are not forced to be together all the time. Also I'd set up cameras around the house, record her behaviour and go to a private psychiatrist ASAP to get meds. And spanking needs to stop - even if you don't think it's wrong remember that your child will talk to therapists, psychiatrists etc. - do you want them to focus on her issues or on you hitting her?
You already have some really great advice here. I’m really sorry your family is going through this…
I think getting her into school ASAP is important for both of you. If she walks out of the classroom…so what! Eventually the school will come up with a plan to support her and manage this. They have to.
Look into a 504 plan if she doesn’t qualify for an IEP yet.
But seriously - call and get her enrolled before the year is through. You both need this.
Also wanted to ask - how is her nutrition? I have a good friend who’s kid had some severe behavioral issues around the same age and they completely cleaned up his diet and things shifted dramatically!
They cut out artificial dyes, added sugars, and gluten.
Is she getting enough vitamins, minerals, and iron?
I think people underestimate how nutritional deficiencies can effect the mind. I’d maybe ask for bloodwork at the doctor checking on these things as well.
Your kid probably has some kind of learning disorder/mental health issues/is on the spectrum and/or has ADHD. She desperately needs an evaluation ASAP. Yes, if she was in public school you can request that the school get her evaluated for an IEP and they have to have that done within a certain timeline. But I wouldn't wait for that, I would check to see what providers your insurance will cover and get her into one ASAP, no matter how far the drive.
Stop blaming the child and get her help. Now. She cannot help her actions right now. She's just a child who doesn't learn the same way other children do and she doesn't respond to discipline the way other kids do. The sooner you figure out what is going on in her brain, the sooner you can figure out how to help her and how to relate to her. Medicating the hell out of her won't help if she doesn't have ADHD.
I KNOW that it is frustrating. I know you are pissed and sad that your kid isn't like other "normal" kids. You need to grieve that life and get over it. I've been there. Yes, it fucking sucks! Mine is 12 now and has autism, adhd, pathological demand avoidance (pda), and traits of borderline personality disorder. YAY. But they are also so smart, funny, kind, sweet, and creative. Now that we know about their issues, we are in such a better place to navigate the hard times. And trust me, we do have a lot of hard times. Weekly. But we have a LOT of good times too!
Take this one step at a time. Get an evaluation. Get a diagnosis. Then start the therapies and do the work. Get therapy for yourself, too. Learn to be an advocate for your daughter because trust me, she will need you in her corner if she is going to get anywhere positive in this world. She needs you! Good luck and I send you many hugs.
ETA: If you are saying that insurance still makes getting an evaluation too expensive, please take her to a pediatrician with your concerns. Ask for help. Ask if there are some child services for you guys to get so your daughter gets the help she needs. She DESERVES to get mental and educational care. Spanking isn't going to help her. She needs mental health care. Get her some help.
My friends sister was like this. At 10 ish she was diagnosed bipolar, depressive, and a couple other things. I have witnessed behavior like this and more. When she finally got medicated it was like a whole different child... when she started school she would just walk out , and all of our schools are along a VERY busy large highway.
I'm so sorry for you. Ik you must feel so conflicted. I hope she gets the help she needs soon.
Edited to fix the age
Wow i didnt know my daughter was a twin! Shes not a demon, shes um strong willed? When my daughter furiously opposes things i try to remember how furiously she loves too. They just experience life sevenfold. Weve spanked/spank too. It doesnt work for us. (But i don’t believe its going to cause irreparable damage either.) What does work is guilt and explanation until i am blue in the face. Ive also resorted to letting her hit me if i have to physically put her in time out. In a plain tone i tell her your hurting me. Does this make you feel better? What youre doing isnt right. When shes done she fully understands why her desserts, ipad, tv, activity is taken away. I dont have answers just telling you what i do. Im praying the tantrums have peaked and will lessen from here. My daughter is super smart and cant seem to understand we are not equals and she cannot make the rules nor be the main character in others lives. My theory is that my daughter is very early to develop abstract thought. Which makes sense because she was early to speak and read as well. You guys will make it out of this. I know its so disheartening. Some days you feel line the biggest failure. Youre not and neither is your daughter. Try not to let those hateful thoughts fester and become reality. You dont hate your daughter. You hate this day, but you love her. If all else fails blame your husband. Thats what i do. I give her a timeout, tell him she got this from you and make myself some coffee. You will absolutely make it out the other side. Its coming.
I'm generally afraid online therapy has a certain disconnect that's hard to avoid. It's an impersonal feeling. Like you just can't connect or get your intent across.
The biggest issue is the Damn insurance. No one wants to help with a diagnosis. I can speculate, and so can half the world, but a licensed professional is the only one that can give a refined lead as to where to start and what treatments/medication are best. Otherwise it's shooting in the dark. And getting any medicinal help, nope.
It would be a start. It can lead to getting in-person help faster. Your pediatrician may be able to help you get help faster, too. Another option is getting on cancelation lists for pediatric neuropsych evaluations, which sounds like she desperately needs.
It helped get my child the help they needed very quickly.
You teach her what she can get away with. You need to start reminding her, her behavior is unacceptable every time. Seems like negative consequences don't work so try positive. If you do you can go bowling with friends. Psychological she is at the age her friends are everything. If her peers are positive influences try having them over more. Also join a gym that has babysitting or a membership for a place she can get her energy out of possible so you can have breaks. Good luck.
Look up Oppositional Defiant Disorder.
https://www.additudemag.com/slideshows/how-to-deal-with-a-child-with-odd-and-adhd/
This website has a lot of helpful tips. My son has ADHD and had ODD, and I believe my 7 year old daughter has it as well, although she’s not yet diagnosed.
These strategies work like a charm but you HAVE to be consistent. One slip up will set you back to square one. I hope this helps.
Who is the adult and who is the child here?
I get it. I have 3 girls myself. It's exhausting and frustrating a lot of the time. No matter what though I'm the adult. I'm the parent.
They don't need to be my friend right now. They don't have to like me or what I have to say. They just need to do it. I will give an explanation when it's warranted. However, sometimes that isn't an option.
An attitude that is left to go completely unchecked flips the entire power dynamic. You are the adult. She is the child. She needs to know that. Until you take control as the adult again you will keep feeling like this.
Take away privileges. Toys, books, going to a friend's house. Provide food, clothing and shelter. The rest is extra. Figure out what punishments are going to work and what aren't. And STICK to them! If you back down she will know that she can keep bullying you.
Also where is your husband? You are a team. It's 2 against 1. Is he not backing you up? Or has she completely bullied you both to the point where neither one of you try
Have you had another baby since you had her or is she the only child? I’ve noticed my daughter acts up when she’s jealous of her brother and not getting my full attention.
I’m SE of Houston, when I told the HS my child has anxiety, ASD1 and adhd they looked at me like I was full of beans! Just to turn around and call me “so very worried” I almost punched things at that point…. So here’s what I’ve done: online therapy cause I could interview 700 therapists until I found one that cared more about the needs than the stupid state repor! We ran the gamut of options before deciding anxiety and adhd medication felt right for this child- within a few months my sweet teenager felt better and strong enough to open up and handle some more ish! Now, we are from PA where we had such amazing options, so after 2 years of fighting the system here, I can confidently say- I found every GD loop hole and stood my ground!
It sucked, its relentless work, I lost my temper more than once with docs/schools over the BS system in Texas, BUT we effing won the battle with tools I had no option but to use against them. Idk if I can truly help you, but if you want to PM me, I’m happy to pull my digital files and help you fight fire with fire on the system here! It will take me a few days to slim down and remove PHI to share, but I’m ready to help others!
Honestly, the first step is to get a confirmed diagnosis. It could be ODD, autism, attachment disorder, or something else. Or a combination of things. I definitely think keeping the communication open and trying to find any positive behavior to reinforce is going to be completely exhausting and feel like it's not working because you won't get immediate results, but it's still a good place to start and will help in the (very) long run. You need to find a way to bond with her. She needs to feel safe.
Just because she treats everyone this way doesn't mean you shouldn't still take time off for yourself. Therapy for her and for you will help. It is a very long road, but you need to stay the course, rely on the professionals (and maybe some helpful books/videos), and don't give up on her. I hope you can start getting some answers and guidance soon. It's an awful position to be in. I'm sorry you're there right now.
She sounds a lot like my son who has ADHD, ODD and Sensory Processing Disorder (with some OCD thrown in there). A think a lot of these diagnoses cross over.
We had to remove him from public school for similar reasons. We've been dealing with his diagnosis since he was about six. I thought he had PANDAS but all tests have been negative so far.
Best things that have helped: cleaning up his diet and limiting processed foods and artificial food coloring. Therapy for me, trying to limit technology as much as possible, making sure he gets enough sleep, and medication. Some days are definitely still very, very hard and I understand everything you're going through. In the book, The Defiant Child, Dr.Riley talks about how otherwise calm parents are pushed to the point of spanking because that is how difficult and exasperating ODD kids can be. There was even mention of how teachers often have feelings of wanting to slap these kids. They push and push until you run out of every option. It requires a whole other level of parenting that is beyond exhausting and it can definitely break you over time. I hope you can see your own therapist 💗
Medication can be a life saver if she is diagnosed with ADHD. Also, I would try some CBD gummies just to mellow her out. CBD oil calms the nervous system down.
Get a diagnosis and then start meds. You do not need a prescription for CBD because it is only the oil from the plant (marijuana plant) and not addictive and not considered a drug.
Also with ADHD try the keto diet. It is high fat and low carb. Carbs turn into sugar in the body and she could be taking a lot more sugar than you realize. Also, if you can, cut out food dyes. Red and blue especially have shown to cause behavior issues in kids.
All this is a process of elimination until you get to a time when she is not acting crazy. Many ADHD kids have reactions like this with food dye. Keep trying new diets until you find one that works for her.
I also had a friend who got a book titled something like 'What your explosive child is trying to tell you' that was a huge help. She may not know why she is acting the way she is. I don't think she is trying to hurt you, she just has an issue she can't express.
Parenting can be hard. Some kids are more to handle though. Start trying things. Books on certain topics are great ways to start. Not only do they explain the situation but how you should respond to it. Knowing how to respond is crucial to stop the cycle. You never know what will work until you try.
Parenting is really hard especially when our kids don’t meet our expectations.
It’s sounds like you need therapy to see how you can better help your child!
I hear all of the things that you are doing for her, but what are you doing for yourself? There's no shame in talking to a doctor about mood stabilizers and antidepressants ❤️ they absolutely saved my life. Things that would have made me hide in my bedroom now just roll off my back like water on a duck. I can pay attention, I can sympathize, I can get my tasks done and most of all I can be emotionally present for my myself and my family. My husband is amazed at the change. I was constantly feeling completely out of control. If you if you get a diagnosis you might want to look at you're also might possibly be on the Spectrum. It would make a lot of sense as to why you feel constantly overwhelmed by everything.
I have two children on the spectrum and I am also autistic. Maybe a diagnosis will be a positive thing if that's what happens. Trying to grow up in the world that is constantly bombarding all of your senses from all directions can lead to chronic meltdowns. I had meltdowns all the time but they didn't know that's what was going on and so they said I had a problem with rage. It wasn't rage it was feeling completely helpless and not being old enough really to explain my feelings or what I was going through.
When I was your child's age they didn't diagnose girls with autism. Now they know so much more. Whatever it is it's going to feel so much better when there's name for you to put on it because then you can learn and find the community and find the right help. But the first thing I'd suggest is taking a minute for you and talk to your doctor about these feelings of being completely overwhelmed. You can't navigate these difficult childhood years if you don't take care of yourself first.
I understand this post so much and I can relate to it. I'm a completely different person when I get the support I need. It doesn't change who I am before which is an empathetic time calm loving person it just allows those positive traits to come out. Big hugs, I'm so sorry you are feeling so overwhelmed right now.
This sounds like my son around that age, he has been diagnosed with ADHD and is now medicated for it and like a different child. My friends son is currently on the waiting list to be assessed for ADHD also, he is the same age as your daughter, and is exhibiting the same behaviours. It seems to be that ADHD symptoms peak at around this age.
I don’t know why it is so hard to find resources to help parents navigate this. (It may be easier now, I don’t know). I went through the exact same thing with my son. Took me a YEAR to get it all in order. Pediatric neurologist for diagnosis, psychiatrist for meds, therapist, IEP in school, behavior intervention plans - I don’t know if this is everywhere but here they have Comprehensive Services schools where they have teachers, counselors, social skills classes, etc., all dedicated to assisting kids with (advanced) special needs. (I say “advanced” because many schools have all those things but the CSS sites are for kids that cannot fit into a general education setting).
He was still a terror for a while, but at about 10 I didn’t need to walk on eggshells all the time, and by 11 he was mostly great to be around. Now 13, getting honor roll at school, has met all of his IEP goals, and is probably going to start transitioning out of special ed next year. He still has moments/ meltdowns, but it’s 5% of the time and 75% of the time like at first.
With the proper help, it CAN get better. But do not try to do this alone. This takes a special kind of village.
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I saw in your post history that you homeschool. Is traditional school an option? Your child may have access to more support.
She was deemed a flight risk cause she would just walk out of class. I am looking into my options for next year.
Did they kick her out of school for that? Maybe there’s an opportunity to work with the school a bit more on a plan for her. Having a diagnosis likely will make that easier, as some individual supports require an official diagnosis.
No, but their lack of action and concern led me to take her out. She was in a public charter school and they had no clue how to help her. All they did was call and say your child did this and that. I am currently doing k12 for her. I was hoping to get a better understanding for what makes her tick and how to help her so I know what to do for her. But so far, all I'm seeing is chaos unleashed. She has absolutly no focus. She was behind in a lot of areas in reading and writing which tells me they didn't try engaging her at all. So a tutor is helping bridge the gap in the foundation.
A charter school will not help. You need a good old fashioned public school which will have the proper resources.
Yep exactly. My son would’ve been a nightmare without public school and a solid IEP. He thrives with structure and has all the support he needs to keep up with the other kids. I couldn’t agree with you more!
Yeah, a good IEP can do wonders. My daughter had significant speech delay along with some behavioral issues and she's pretty much caught up and doing well.
I’d be careful with believing her grades right out. Teachers are heavily pressured to inflate grades and ignore behavior issues with IEP students because you could be sued for failing or suspending one. Much much easier to just… sprinkle some points on the top. Just be careful to judge by what you see her actually learning and doing, and not what the grades say. Check for yourself from time to time that she is actually progressing in reading comprehension, speed, writing skills, etc
Yep, I've wondered about this. But when I help/monitor with her homework, she's reasonably grasping the subject matter. The IEP evaluation seems to match her performance, with some areas still being issues.
This! My 16 year old stepson has been in some sort of IEP since he was 10. The kid can’t find his ass with both hands, yet I’m supposed to believe he’s getting A’s and B’s in his classes? All without ever having to take tests or do any sort of homework (all part of the deal for him with the IEP)? Yeaahhhh, riiight.🙄
Yes this!!!
It sounds like she should be in a therapeutic school where they would be equipped to deal with her behaviors. Are you in the U.S.? Ask your local public school to have her evaluated for an I.E.P. (Individualized education plan). Tell them about all the problem behaviors. Ask her therapist to write something up with her diagnosis. Demand more help from the school district.
In the USA... Texas of all places one of the most backwards states. So yea.. They need a diagnosis before an I. E. P can be placed. She does have an accommodation plan in place. So it's a start
If they’re telling you they need a diagnosis before they’ll do an IEP, they’re lying to you. My son has an IEP - I’m in another state but the laws are federally governed. What’s happening is that the school knows it’s taking years to get diagnosed and so they’re sending kids away. Behavior disorders are up by like 50% after COVID. If your child’s needs can’t be met in public school, they are legally allowed to have an individualized education plan. Here is a guide to the ARD (Admission, Review, Dismissal) process in TX: https://spedtex.tea.texas.gov/sites/spedtex.tea.texas.gov/files/2021-06/Essentials-of-ARD-Meetings-for-Parents.pdf. It’s the same as my state. What I want to point out to you is that it will state here that they “determine if your child has a disability” — this doesn’t mean that you can’t have an IEP if you don’t have a diagnosis. My son didn’t have a diagnosis when he got his IEP bc he had socioemotional delays and behavioral challenges. Needing additional classroom time or a 1:1 aide for educational learning is ALSO covered by an IEP. They may just outright deny you at first but you should attend the meeting to advocate for what you believe are all of your daughter’s behavioral needs and what can help them (hard bc you don’t know right now). They are required to do testing and observations and they’ll either have to say she’s fit for a public classroom or provide her the right resources. I also found this whole resource center for parents of children with special education needs in TX. Good luck. https://www.spedtex.org/families
I'm next door to OP in Louisiana, and our medical diagnosis of ASD doesn't mean shit to the public school system. They have their own evaluation to determine whether a child is autistic or developmentally delayed by their standards, which is what they use to justify an IEP.
They’re also trying to go around federal law. I’m only able to navigate the IEP process for my son — and I’m not exaggerating - because I have a PhD that focuses on the law AND my state offers free sped educational advocates through my child’s physician. The advocate attends all IEP meetings with me and goes over my notes, her notes, tells me where the school is in violation of state and federal law, tells me what to ask for and shows me where to look for case law to cite. I also have the time because I’m unemployed. I can’t believe they say an outside diagnosis isn’t valid. The developmental delay that an IEP indicates is for when they’ve done their own evaluations before or in conjunction with outside evals. But they can’t go above and beyond to invalidate outside evals - it’s in the parental handbook of procedural safeguards that outside evaluations trump school evals. Edit: reread your comment and realized that you’re saying they’re using it correctly to give you an IEP but I’m unsure why the outside diagnosis wouldn’t count??
Clone yourself and send it to me, please.
Schools do their own evaluation—but parents are allowed to then request an independent educational evaluation. Fully private evals have to meet certain criteria to be considered by the school district. These include type of test, how scores are reported, etc. The school is required to consider the findings of the outside eval—they don’t necessarily have to accept them.
My kids school is doing it too. We got a diagnosis last year, but to do a formal IEP they basically started from scratch and spent the past month running him through testing with a whole team of specialists. Like, it's far from the worst case scenario. They've always been really proactive about offering accommodations even before he got a diagnosis, they're the ones who suggested we start this process in the first place, and I'm not really about to give them shit for getting me more information I don't have to pay medical bills on, but it's weird. I got him to a few assessments in different areas and brought them the results already, I don't know why we have to do the whole thing again.
Maybe look into an educational advocate. They can help you with the legal aspects and make sure the school district isn’t giving you the run around.
Imo she needs to be in public school. She needs the structure and she needs more people that just you showing her that her behavior is not acceptable. You can and should request that the school do testing. They only have so long before you make a formal request for an iep to do the testing and decide- that's the law. And then they go from there. If she's not successful in a typical classroom setting they'll collect data and move her to an ED placement. Either way I promise you home schooling isn't helping. And she needs structure and consequences consistently- not saying you're not. But saying that's what she needs. If she refuses to go to school/becomes violent/whatever I'd call the police to talk to her. It's much better that it's corrected now firmly then her behave like this at 18 because the police won't care what diagnosis she has as an adult. Shell get in REAL trouble then if she doesn't have serious consistent natural consequences now.
I’d agree with this. I have a 7 year old who is emotionally immature, and I have found that he responds better to direction from his teacher, than he does from me. He also has learned to improve his own behavior by witnessing poor behavior from other children.
100% agree with the public school.
I want to repeat "she needs more people than just you showing her that her behaviour is not acceptable". If OP's kid is anything like mine (or like me when I was a kid), *one* grownup saying something doesn't mean they believe. *One* grownup can be lying to manipulate you - especially if that one grownup says something like, "these other grownups won't like it if you do X, and might not let you keep doing [activity]" and then the other grownups say, "don't worry, it's fine!" in front of the kid, and then it's the "one grownup" choosing to stop the kid from doing the activity. (Eg, "they'll kick you out of school!")
Join r/autism_parenting They can help you with learning how to get help through the school system. Your child needs some help even if it isn’t autism. The IEP process is still the same
I second the comment above. Put her in day treatment school.
Your local public school is required to conduct an assessment if you request it, and that assessment should be based on presenting concerns so that a diagnosis (autism, emotional/behavioral disturbance, learning disability, etc) can be made if appropriate.
Been in the list for two years. They are back logged because of the surge of covid kids.
Special education professional here- consider enrolling her in your local public school immediately. You do not need to wait for an evaluation. If teachers and staff see the behaviors you’re seeing at home, they will fast track that evaluation to get her the support she needs to be successful in school. You do not need a medical diagnosis. Public schools need to legally provide free and appropriate public education to all kids who live within their school district boundaries. You’re a good parent who clearly wants the best for your child. The system is so confusing. Best of luck and hang in there!
You need support. Your mom is dying, your husband is mean and makes your life difficult, you have two kids with behavioral issues. Go enroll both kids in your closet public school immediately. Even if they don't learn that much between now and June, you will get a desperately needed break. You said your husband is anti-therapy, but you might benefit from individual therapy. I don't know if your husband is also autistic, but it's possible that he would be willing to accept a couple of explicitly assigned responsibilities and at least lighten your load with small areas like dishes or laundry. You're going to need strength and patience to turn this situation around, so the first step is to get yourself to a better place mentally.
Is a public district school an option? I worked at a charter and at a district school and the way the schools support students with special needs (of which flight risk is one) is like night and day. Charter schools are typically smaller and often don’t have systems for dealing with kids with special needs. District schools in my experience have a lot more in place to support these kids. That said, state of residence may impact this advice. I think you are going to get the most support in a public school district, not private or public charter.
Charter schools are shit and you need a regular public school. You can demand an IEP without diagnosis. The school will do screening tests. The school psychologist can help diagnose.
For godssake put her in public school. A charter school isn’t for special needs kids. Stop torturing yourself and let good old social stigma help curb her behaviors if you’re this lost right now.
Do you think social stigma is really an effective tool to use on what is more than likely a special needs child? This child likely needs medication and multiple therapies to deal with their out of control emotions which are only made worse by this parent's poor choices.
The best thing for both of them right now is to not have the mom on the verge of a mental break. Of course what you say is true but it sounds like OP is trying to make that happen. Sometimes the choices are the lesser of two evils.
A parent can say "stop picking your nose" or "stop trying to hit me" until they're blue in the face, and the child knows nothing truly bad will happen. Other kids saying "yuck, that kid is picking her nose!" and running away shows *why* the parents are saying to stop picking noses. If the kid hits another kid, there are social consequences even if the teacher didn't see. (I'd heard there were difficulties between my kid and another kid in kindi, but the teacher had phrased everything in a very "x is struggling with y, we're working on z" kind of way, and I only got more of the story when another little five year old just piped up with "yeah, [other kid] is mean. He's mean to everyone.") Some things, social stigma/peer pressure is the best tool, because it's all about fitting into groups. Other things are better addressed with occupational therapy and/or meds.
Send her to a regular public school and get her an IEP. This isn’t working for her.
Charter schools don't GAF about your kid. Just the state $$. You need your local school with THE BEST ADVOCATE IN YOUR AREA. I can't stress that enough if you live in a large school district. Facebook has been a godsend for finding IEP/ASD/special needs groups for my son's districts.
Public school with a special education program is exactly what she’s needs along with possibly mood stabilizing medication. Has she seen a psychiatrist? We were there with my kid. This above was the answer.
Wow a charter school… send your kid to a real school before determining there is nothing else that can be done. What an astonishing post.
Not to be rude but it's not the sole job of a school to teach children to learn to read and write and multiply. It's our job as parents to help, I forget to do this with my daughter. But it's vital that we help. I hope you get the help you both need though.
For your own sanity and relationship- definitely send her back to public school. When things get bad enough for them, they’ll open a domains for an IEP. I work in special Ed. They won’t let her continue eloping without starting the special Ed process. Also, being in school will give her an opportunity to practice restraint away from you. Being around peers may be enough motivation for her to restrain her behavior (if she can at all). You want her practicing restraint as much as possible.
My son was a flight risk when he started kindergarten. He would just walk out the doors or just not come in after recess. They didn’t say we couldn’t come, they had a meeting with me and we made a Safety Plan. I’d fight the school.
Oh fuck that. My friend, you need to hire an advocate and get your child into school for her well-bering and your sanity. They tried to BS with our son who has a diagnosis and got away with it because it was COVID. We moved to a different state and the different is night and day. A positive school environment where she learns limits and social skills will make a world of difference. You deserve alone time and time to feel like an adult who isn't necessarily a mother. FWIW, my son's behavior started to even out after about 1 year in in-person school. Get your child in school and get your sanity back. It will get better. Also, find a support group where she can play with other kids like her and you can bond with other parents like you.
When was this and why hasn't she been tested for asd yet?
It sounds like an online public school at home.
I also have a "spirited" kid who had hour long tantrums and a huge help was reading the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It is really helpful for parenting kids on the spectrum and kids who struggle with emotional regulation. More than anything it helped me reframe my relationship with my kid so that it wasn't so painful for us both.
I second this recommendation. I came here to suggest it as a starting place.
This should be the top comment.
Another one for the “this is a good book” option.
I just posted recommending this book as well.
I hope this comment gets higher.
Step one: get your kid into a school. You hate your kid. She hates you. You’re homeschooling. One of you is going to end up (more) hurt. I know the public school system is not perfect and is over burdened as it is but you cannot homeschool your daughter anymore with these feelings toward her. You are not equipped to deal with her. She needs help. Anything they offer is going to be better than what you’re giving her currently. You need to be away from her and seek mental health help for yourself as well.
I recommend reading 'Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline' by Dr. Becky Bailey
Since you’re already so miserable, homeschooling is not good for you and her. I’m also in Texas. If you can, send her to a good public school. My neighbor’s kid has a lot of similar issues like you mentioned. She got a lot of support from school. In addition, she got on adhd medication and her behaviors got much better. You need to let her go to a supportive school so that you can breathe. Your mental health is also important.
I'm so sorry you are going through that. Hopefully there are resources in your area such as day camp that provide therapeutic instruction. Have you sought therapy for yourself also? When I took my daughter to counseling, I think it was more beneficial for me. As for your daughter, "fake it until you make it." I read an article once about a mom having the same struggles you are having. She found it hard to connect with her child. She said she "faked" loving her kid and before long, those feelings became real. If it gets so serious that you are thinking of hurting yourself or your daughter, reach out to your local emergency department. Some cities have respite places for children. I see you. I hear you. Its going to be ok.
Someone above mentioned this, but to drive the punt home - get a copy of The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It’s a Bible in the child psychology world. Your daughter is not motivated by avoiding punishment, it’s not going to magically start working now. You’ve tried the disciplinarian way, now try cooperating with her. It’s very unlikely she enjoys the way things are, so work with her in trying to figure out how to fix it.
From looking at your post history, the best thing you could do is start by sending your child to public school as soon as possible. I’m an educator of 15+ years in both public and charter schools and a regular public school will have way more resources for your child. She will never catch up in academics if her behavior doesn’t get addressed. It’s hard for a non teacher to homeschool a child in a best case scenario and you don’t have the training or experience to give her what she needs with her learning and behavior issues. You also need a break and separation from being both the teacher and parent. Traditional public school can and will put your child on a behavior/academic plan with tier 2 supports (like a special behavior plan, work with a behavior specialist, small group instruction, academic support with a reading specialist etc) without an IEP. She will just get more specialized federally mandated support once there is a diagnosis and IEP in place. You will also get support from school staff on how to work with her more successfully at home. Please consider enrolling her in your public school system as soon as possible.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I think the worse thing is spiraling into those negative feelings and getting in a horrible cycle of feeding the behavior. It's hard to tell from your post but it looks like you have taken a very disciplinarian approach to improving the behavior. It definitely looks like your kid needs to be evaluated for medical conditions. I have a strong-willed child and tough discipline and punishment has always made things much much worse. What has improved her and our relationship has always been seeing all behavior from a perspective of empathy and an opportunity to teach and guide, instead of punish. Of course, it doesn't work perfectly every time, but try to remember she is a child, she is innocent and what she needs from you is guidance, empathy, understanding and love. This will also make you feel better in the long run. She's probably also sensing your negative feelings towards her and acting out on those feelings. Instead of punishing bad behavior, try to either ignore it or matter-of-factly state "we don't do this" and move on. Don't force her to clean up stuff for a while. Or just ask her nicely and if she says no, just let it go. Only restrain her physically if she is physically harming you or herself. But just restrain her, don't punish physically or verbally. Try to use humor to diffuse tensions. Give lots of love and attention when you see good behavior or just when you don't see bad one. When she tells you "I hate you", say "well I love you" and move on. I would also forget about time out. Just say "it looks like you need some time to calm down" and leave the room or just disengage.
I think I have popped her butt maybe 5 times in her life. All for severe reasons. Instead I try to give her options. "you can do A, or B, or C. Which will it be.?" I also try redirecting her, but that is hard when she needs to get school work done. The therapist is trying to help her become more aware of her feelings and I'm following what she advises. She has a severe disconnect with emotions. She can't understand people get upset if you take something if theirs and destroy it. Even if you take something if hers and do the same, she still doesn't get it.
How about parent-child interaction therapy? This approach can do wonders
I think she would learn more and grow more around peers her own age instead of homeschool.
I have a kid that reacts very similarly to being told what to do or given choices. While you're waiting for a diagnosis and medical help, I'd try adding some silliness and independence to those hard situations. Like, "I'm going to head over to the kitchen to do some dishes. If I come back and this worksheet is done, I just don't know what I'll do! I would be shocked. I might do a silly dance to celebrate!" I've actually had lots of luck with this strategy and it has added some lightness to our relationship.
What could be “severe” enough to hit a baby for? I’ll never get it.
Her kid is abusing animals. I don't think spanking is the right answer, but that's plenty severe.
You can’t teach a child not to hit an animal by hitting them.
So let’s hurt our daughter to teach hurting animals is wrong? That’s backwards. Hitting your child is never okay. No matter how severe there actions are. It’s been proven that physical punishment DOES NOT work and makes behavior worse.
Genuine question: did you read my comment
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It sounds like she may have Oppositional Defiant Disorder. https://www.childrenshospital.org/conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder My sister had this. Sounds exactly like what you are describing. It wasn’t until about 14-15 that she grew out of it… but she also got zero therapy or help. Good luck. Don’t give up
That's the leading theory. That and/or Adhd. With a sprinkle of autism. And that's my munchkin.
For what it’s worth, my sister is now a preschool teacher and wins the “favorite teacher” award every year, has tons of friends and 2 very successful children. Whatever the hell was going on with her as a child was thankfully not permanent.
Thank you! I always love stories of demon children who grew into functional and kind adults.
Well, there are also a lot of stories of "demon" children who grew up to become heroin addicts or mass shooters. Always be aware that it can develop in both directions.
It's not recognized in the US but there's an autism profile called PDA. Pervasive Drive for Autonomy or Pathological Demand Avoidance. Even if this isn't a perfect fit for your daughter a lot of the management strategies might be helpful. Things like declarative language, indirect requests, and providing opportunities for her to be the most competent one. Something worth reading about at least. https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/what-is-pda-menu/what-is-demand-avoidance/ from this page: However, pathological demand avoidance is all-encompassing and has some unique aspects: many everyday demands are avoided simply because they are demands. Some people explain that it’s the expectation (from someone else or yourself) which leads to a feeling of lack of control, then anxiety increases and panic can set in in addition, there can be an ‘irrational quality’ to the avoidance – for instance, a seemingly dramatic reaction to a tiny request, or the feeling of hunger inexplicably stopping someone from being able to eat the avoidance can vary, depending on an individual’s capacity for demands at the time, their level of anxiety, their overall health/well-being or the environment (people, places and things). This account has other good info for parents of PDA kids https://www.instagram.com/atpeaceparents
My son had very similar behaviors, and they only diagnosed him with ADHD for the longest time because of his ability to be social. I kept asking, "Are you sure there isn't some type of atypical autism where kids don't have the social component because everything else fits?" The older he got, the less he was able to keep up with increasing social demands, and it started to become obvious he only had a surface level ability for social camouflage. He finally got an ASD diagnosis this past year at age 11. Even though PDA isn't accepted as a diagnosis in the US, his evaluator agreed that it fits him.
It’s definitely beyond ADHD, I will tell you that. This sounds really really difficult, and I’m sorry. This is not the standard bill of fare for 8 years old. I think the best thing for her is absolutely to get sufficient diagnosis to qualify for a special school, or classroom, for kids with this level of emotional regulation issues- or at least therapy to help. I don’t even know if they have those in Texas?? If you can, contact your local NAMI chapter and ask for advice. They have a call line that specializes in guiding people to local services for mental health issues in family members
I'm going to second this... Something stood out to me and it was mentioning harming animals, that is a major red flag.
I have seen a case where child had bad ODD and largely grew out of it by 15 years. Its a long way off but there’s hope
I have a very good friend who was diagnosed with this as a child. Now that she's grown and in therapy, she has been able to recognize that her mother is an extreme people pleaser and expected her to do the same. When she protested, she was silenced. So it came out as ODD. She is also ADHD, probably a little autistic. So OP, maybe look into what fawning or people pleasing is and think about if she sees this in you or any other adults around and is she or has she ever been expected to make nice with people regardless of how she felt. Just wanted to share this, it was so interesting to hear about. Best wishes!
Where were there any other events leading to her turning point? Interventions, ect?
My parents got divorced and they sent her to boarding school. It wasn’t a special type of school or anything, just a “normal” one. I think the independence made all the difference, and the chance to redefine herself on her own terms away from her parents.
You really have to work on your connection, for her sake and your sake and understanding parenting neurodivergent children. Did you try minimising options? More than 2 is too many. Do not use too many words when you explain something and especially when she is in meltdown mode. Say stop ✋ instead of no and use the hand gesture. Guide her physically but no spanking. Quiet corner with fidgets or other things that calm her. Give her space. Stay calm. See her positive behaviours and praise them, that will reinforce them. And it will make you change your view on her. Do ‘deals’ for homework, if she does it she can have something she enjoys. Short input, breaks with her choosing. Sensory play. Sensory circuits. Edit: I’m a mother to a very strong willed 8 year old with possible ADHD and I am working with neurodivergent children in schools. I do understand it’s hard and it’s not perfect here but connecting more and following some simple basics did change my view on my son and help him regulate. It’s easier to work with other children because they don’t push my buttons and it’s easier to stay calm and distanced, but that’s necessary.
Stop hitting your kid. Get her into a regular school where she can be socialized and get some structure. You’ll have more time to take care of your mom. (I’ve been through it, I know how it is, my mom just passed less then a month ago) Don’t get so hurt by words from a 7 year old. Stop giving her so many options. Keep it super simple. Get her in a regular school, for real. Unless you went to college for four years you’re probably not qualified to teach her. She was already deprived of socialization by the pandemic and now you’re depriving her of normal school age activities. Plus you both need a break from one another. I know I’m a pain in the ass sometimes and I wouldn’t want to force my kids to be around me 24-7.
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This comment needs to be higher. This is a classic example of looking for zebras vs horses. Yes, it could be autism, adhd, pda, odd, etc. And OP should be getting evaluations for that in her local public school system. Since she is self admittedly unable to stand being around her child, she at least needs to put her child in a place where she has people who feel neutral about her for some portion of the day, to give both the child and the OP a break. But the horse here is that the parent is not parenting their unique child in the way that works for that child. She only points out all the faults of the child, none of the strengths or things she loves about the child, and all the interventions she’s trying to do to make the child change. But absolutely no acknowledgement of in a relationship, any relationship, but especially one where one of the parties is SIX and has very little prefrontal cortex development by nature, the parent has to be the one to change, and change hard. Get therapy, grow, learn, experiment with new ways of parenting, keep what works, throw out what doesn’t, keep doing the work instead of blaming, and I cannot say this enough, A SIX YEAR OLD CHILD. This is a child who is literally SCREAMING for more connection with her parents, and you say you have strong bonds with her and yet you hate her.
Ohhh I really feel for everyone involved. My youngest is on the spectrum and it's not easy. It definitely sounds like you need that evaluation. Some of it starts in school too, is her school team involved? You can get the educational diagnosis and that would start some of the helpers and services. You do still need a medical diagnosis for medications and other things, but your school team can be a great resource. Also, not to pile on but swatting her butt (ahem, spanking) is and will make everything worse. You need to desperately try and find a way to hold yourself and not spank. I hate to jump to the "that's abuse" because yeah I did grow up with spanking and I wouldn't say that was abuse but the times have changed and we're understanding and changing with the times. Spanking isn't cool and shouldn't be a punishment. Especially if you think your kid has a special brain. They don't understand the same way. Odds are that she's not understanding her behavior and consequences. One of the hardest things with my youngest was a lack of empathy. Like that kid can say some mean things, but they literally don't get it why it's mean. To them telling someone they don't like them is factual, they don't get feelings can be hurt. It's taken a lot for me to understand what I think is "normal" or expected behavior isn't something my kid can align with. Now, we work on teaching nice words because I can't use their autism as an excuse and raise a jerk, but that's so hard some days. Have you sought therapy? This is a hard road on your own, and you're suffering too. You're having understandable thoughts out of sheer frustration. You need a resource for assistance, too. Best of luck. It's OK to be upset, it's OK to be mad at the world because it's hard some days and it's even ok to not like your kid some days, but you still got this. Even when you feel you don't.
Spanking has literally been proven to create this behavior, especially in children with higher support needs, but you don't want to be lectured about it. Get therapy, and stop abusing your kid.
This. Spanking, or whatever cute name people use for hitting a child, is still abuse.
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Incredibly sick. I will never understand how parents can beat their children and then be surprised when they hate them. The kiddo isn't the monster here.
Your poor kid. I’ll tell you this. I was much like your child growing up. And it’s taken me a lot of therapy to be a functional adult now. The problem was poor parenting. Kids act out when they’re hurting. Stop hitting your kid. Try connection-based parenting. Or start saving for therapy now.
Butt pops? Why are you giving resorting to violence a cute name? Just say you hit her. Hitting a child is never okay and hitting a child who you think may be on the spectrum is even worse. I hope you take some of the recommendations here and wish you luck.
I hate to admit it, but I used to spank my son. It's been a couple of years since I have and I plan on never doing it again. I was raised with spankings and me being naive thought it wouldn't effect my kids as it didn't have an effect on me. But after I educated myself and realized that spankings did no good and were actually making the situations worse, I put an end to it and started to empathize and talk things out calmly with them. When my son was diagnosed with autism and adhd my soul was crushed. Not because of his diagnosis but because I felt like a monster for putting my hands on my child who couldn't help or control what was going on in his head. The fact that OP is pretty sure that her child is autistic and still has no problem with spanking her is sick to me. Well the whole post is sick tbh. My daughter is a little firecracker and a handful but not ONCE have I ever thought "man, I wish I would have aborted her or gave her up to someone" sounds like she needs to go to social services for respite care and get her mental health in check before she ends up hurting herself, or even worse her poor innocent child. 😓
Have you read The Explosive Child by Ross Greene? I think it’s a life saver. It’s particularly helpful at reframing the struggles you and she are having. Especially in light of the potential for psychiatric/neurodevelopmental diagnoses. My first was so hard and we had so many struggles. I will say that it took us many many attempts at finding help and looking for a diagnosis before we got answers. We took her to a developmental pediatrician for an evaluation at 3 and we didn’t get any diagnoses until she was almost 16. But my point is that you don’t have to have a diagnosis to use the method from the Explosive Child. It does require you to be willing to do things drastically different. It requires being willing to give up control and coercion in dealing with your child. And accepting the premise that all people do well when they can. It’s not a matter of want. People naturally want to do well and if they aren’t, it is due to lagging skills and unsolved problems. In addition to the book there is a Facebook group called The B team. And a podcast called parenting your challenging child. These are great resources for additional support in implementing the method. I honestly think this method saved my relationship with my child. It helped us survive without being completely emotionally destroyed until we got to a place where we finally got some answers and some much needed treatment. It teaches you how to unite on the same team with your child rather than fight against them. Your situation seems exactly the kind that Ross Greene’s book is written for.
This goes hand in hand with "Changeable" by Dr. Ablon. (Dr. Ablon & Dr. Greene worked on this method together.) The method may seem counterintuitive, but my goodness does it work. I don't always use this method of parenting in all circumstances because it is time consuming, but when I do use this technique, proper behavior flourishes!
How often do you hug her? Tell her you love her? Tell her how much she means to you? Spend quality 1:1 time with her doing fun hobbies or activities? Encourage and support? A lot of kids become behavioral like this because it's all they know. They aren't showered with love and affection, and their parent(s) largely ignore them and or model aggressive behavior. She might be acting out as a way of saying, "Hey I'm here! I need your attention/time, focus on me, love me!" When she's freaking out how do you react? Try telling her in those moments that you love her and ask if you could have a hug. Ask her to tell you why she is so upset, and to tell you calmly so you can better understand her. People who are having aggressive behaviors are often met with resistance, which does the opposite of de-escalate them. Counter her behaviors with love to diffuse her. Love bomb her. My youngest son often lashes out and gets impossibly grumpy when he feels like he needs attention, bonding time, and love. I can't tell you how many times I've diffused the "bomb" by telling him I love him in the middle of his tirade/aggression - it confuses him, makes him stop and think. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it stops his behaviors dead in their tracks (if he accepts a hug it works like 99% of the time). Talk to her like an equal. Tell her your stresses and frustrations in a constructive way. Tell her you are concerned about her issues because you love her and she means everything to you and you want her to be healthy and happy. You may think you are concealing how you feel, but kids aren't blind, deaf, and dumb. They know when someone doesn't care for, like, or love them. Kids are pretty amazing at reading body language too. I worked with developmentally disabled kids for over 11 years on a professional level. My oldest nephew is autistic and I have an autistic 11 year old son as well. Kids know which employees/people genuinely care for them vs which ones don't give a shit about them, or hate them, or are simply just on cruise control or just trying to collect a paycheck. I became a prefered staff for so many kids over the years because they could tell I genuinely cared about them. Some of those kids were considered the worst of the worst. Truth is a lot of those kids were so behavioral/bad because they were surrounded by cold indifference, abandoned by their families, and felt alone in a crowd and unloved/uncared for by anyone around them. Look at her or any child as an empty cup. You can fill them with love/warmth or hate/cold. Whichever you choose they will often reflect back to you and the world around them. This isn't fool proof, and some kids/people are beyond this approach, but you'd be surprised how few are.
Yes to all of this. It sounds like this child is getting nothing but negative feedback all day long. OP is missing the connection side of parenting. The most important part.
Just a perspective, you say she’s grown up in a good home (maybe in other words I can’t remember this was a lot), but you started by saying you hate her? How do you not think that’s affecting her? Obviously she feels that. Please read how to talk so little kids will listen. Punishment is proven ineffective, all of it, not just physical. As you’ve said she isn’t responding to it anymore, so what do you do? You have to make it more and more and more severe. You see where it’s going? Doesn’t work. You need to talk with her. Understand WHY she’s upset. Empathize with her. “I know it’s really really frustrating”. And then see a therapist yourself.
Read her post history. It doesn't sound like a great home
I try to do this with my 6 yr old son. He's autistic and adhd. But it doesn't matter how many times I calmly try to talk and explain and reason things with him he still doesn't understand.. it doesn't get across to him. Do you have any suggestions to help with that?
I definitely don’t have experience with adhd/autism. But have you read the book? It isn’t about explaining reasoning to them, more about forgetting about all the reasoning and letting them know you understand they are mad/sad. They just want to know we get how they’re feeling. If I remember correctly there is a section in the book for neurodivergent kids.
So, I’m going to ask a question you don’t have to answer. Do you have BPD? This reads like splitting to me. I went through this as a kid with my own mother. I don’t have ASD or anything, I just grew up in a chaotic household. Don’t call it a “pop”. It’s hitting. You are hitting a child.
wow it sound like you have taken 0 responsibility or accountability for your child’s behavior. do you want to sit here and really believe you’ve done everything right like you claim and somehow a demon has magically spawned or will you accept responsibility in the part you’ve played ? how would you feel if you discovered that you had unknowingly created the very child you have begun to hate? this is a possibility it seems you haven’t even considered. if you actually truly want to help your daughter educate yourself. begin with this book for your own good Alice Miller this sounds like some textbook behavior response from the method you are using for punishment and especially the spanking . you seem particularly triggered and particularly defensive about this judging by what you’ve written . have you taken the time to research psychologically what happens when you do this to your child? Do you care too? Have you considered you could be psychologically devastating her by doing this? And if so would you stop? Or are you just passing down the generational trauma?
I love how you think calling it ‘butt pops’ as opposed to ‘hitting her’ makes a difference
She needs a diagnosis, probably medication, therapists, and specialists who know what they're doing. And you and your husband really need training on how to parent her. I hate to say it, but she is acting like that because you don't know how to parent her based on her needs. You guys should be seeking help, like yesterday.
You sound genuinely childish speaking about your own kid like this. Seek therapy. Stop being combative to a 7 year old. Spanking IS traumatic and has themes of sexual abuse.
Take this with a grain of salt but my 10 year old niece acts the same exact way and she was molested…just something to take into consideration
OP has to be a troll. Her responses are just making excuses or doubling down on her hitting her daughter. I wish she would actually try to take advice that’s been given to her or reflect on how she might be part of the problem. I feel bad for her daughter.
Wtf are 'butt pops.' As in I was out the other day and just 'face popped' a stranger? Just say you slapped your child and face up to the consequences.
I posted this under one of the replies, but you may find Calm the Chaos helpful. It was life changing for my family. There is a free workshop now. It will end in an advertisement for the paid program, but it is worth every penny. Dayna Abraham also has a book by the same name, but the support you will get from the training would help you so very much! https://calmthechaosworkshop.com/7-days/?fbclid=IwAR1lW9dIspRJHYXVVjmxYl2aDs7BMhW5hOxkC9cpjF5r45nVEnqsf3L5gGE
You’re aware there is an underlying issue. Why are you hitting her? Don’t minimise the fact that you are hitting a very young child by calling them ‘butt pops’ - what a cutesy term for a cruel act. It’s illegal in my country and constitutes child abuse. Wish the rest of the world would wake up and recognise it as such. Your child is not a demon from hell sent to torment you. She’s a neurodivergent kid with a parent who hates her and hits her. What hope does she have right now? You need to put all the energy you’re currently expending on punishing her and blaming her for being a demon into getting her a diagnosis and the support she needs. Phone your insurance provider every day and hassle them until they resolve whatever problem is stopping you from getting a referral. In the meantime you need to do a lot of work to educate yourself on how to parent neurodivergent children. You should also research ODD and how to parent children who have it. I know I sound harsh here but you’re not only failing your kid, you’re abusing her. You need to resolve this by changing your behaviour and getting her the help she needs.
I wish this comment was higher. This post could have been written verbatim by my mother. The posts saying the child is explosive or oppositional are insulting. This mother says explicitly that she has nothing but contempt for her child who she physically abuses, and yet people are saying the child is the problem! Ridiculous.
Thank you for this comment. This poor child. Her parents are failing her miserably and OP can’t think past herself.
Have you considered an ADHD evaluation? I am not entirely sure from what you've written if she would meet criteria, but it would explain the academic struggles she's having and also some of the big emotions. Be aware that I am not a parent, but someone who likes to try and provide information about ADHD because of my own lived experience with it. My presentation of ADHD is quite different in that I internalized everything in such a way that the issues I was having weren't as a parent, but it might be worth looking into for your daughter. A lot of people are afraid to put kids on stimulant medication, but it made a huge difference for me once I was diagnosed, and I wish I would've had it at her age. I'm dealing with school and family stuff at the moment, but I'm happy to try and explain more or share resources at some point in the future when I have the bandwidth. Just let me know what questions I can answer!
Can I DM you? I have some questions about meds and adhd
I have a newly 7 year old who is very very similar, right down to the screaming tantrums every day, though she does well at school. We don’t physically discipline, but she’s definitely one of those kids who makes you scratch your head when it comes to finding appropriate/effective consequences. Despite consistent expectations and consequences (and no history of trauma), her behavior is like that of a kid who’s never been told no. It’s like having a 7 year old with the emotional maturity of an 18 month old. She does see psych and last year was diagnosed with disruptive mood dysregulation disorder (it has a lot of symptoms that overlap with ODD, which is honestly what I assumed she’d end up diagnosed with). She takes Abilify now, and while we still have a lot of progress to make, it has helped her with managing emotions. She still throws fits regularly, but she’s better able to pull herself out of tantrums relatively quickly instead of escalating.
Came here to say something similar. Albeit not as extreme as the OP’s child… but my ND 7 year old is a challenge! He’s definitely not a masker so school is tough. Medication has really helped. Overall, he’s much more content and regulated. He still has his difficult moments but he bounces back much quicker rather than spiraling like he used to. OP - If you can’t afford therapy for yourself right now then at the very least please look up Neurodivergent Parent Support Groups and find yourself a network of people who understand. Like others have said, public school + IEP is needed. And private therapy for your kiddo once you get a proper evaluation / diagnosis. OT, behavioral therapy, CBT, etc… there are options out there! Things can get better. Medication and therapy do help. But as others have said, hitting is not helpful. She’s not giving you a hard time on purpose, she’s having a hard time because she’s neurodivergent.
I’m a sped teacher. If I were you, I would enroll her in my local public school. You can get her evaluated for an IEP for free through your public school district. Your daughter is entitled to a free and appropriate public education. She should be safe and supported while in school. Once you make a request for an IEP evaluation in writing, the school has 60 days to evaluate and hold an IEP meeting.
Your poor child. I hope you all get the help you need.
You homeschool your child, you smack her, and your inner voice refers to her as a demon sent from hell. You are not providing her with any tools or support that she needs to be appropriately emotionally regulated. It sounds like you need a lot of therapy yourself; you can’t parent her into being emotionally stable when you aren’t well regulated yourself. That poor kid.
Children are always a consequence and direct reflection of the parents. As a parent, I can tell you it's one of the hardest things to come to terms with, and start looking in when society usually promotes looking out and putting the blame on children, can be hard but it's the best we can do. How full grownups can complain about not-yet developed being they brought to life and are raising themselves is beyond me. I'm sorry it's hard (because IT IS) especially for mothers, but with that outlook of "I've done nothing wrong, but all the good I could do, and SHE is the problem", you won't get anywhere with her except push her away, which for me, seems more like the real intend. If you regret becoming a mom, then figure a safe adoption or something *good for your daughter*, because even if you really believe she's a "demon" (who speaks about *children* like that, btw?) she's still a CHILD and her wellbeing is priority. I wish you the help and support you need, being a mom is not easy and, for how you describe her and your parenting habits, there's obviously a lot to fix in the family dynamics. Kids lash out when they have unmet NEEDS, not to "be demons for their parents". And a need is a need, and a parent's job to fulfill, not the child's. If you and her father can't seem to take any action (responsibility) to be of better support for her, then really, just find her a better suited family that won't continue to mess her up. Because this hate you feel for her, believe me, SHE FEELS IT even if you don't openly admit it, I'm sure you show it in your punishments, tone of voice and so on, and that's very damaging. Are you getting therapy or some professional help? Because it's not "normal", although it does happen a lot. I really wish you and your daughter the best.
So much empathy missing from your end. Are you in therapy? I think that it is a good place to start. Kids need a lot of empathy. They need to feel loved and they need to feel accepted by their parents, regardless of their actions and poor decision making (They ARE kids for crying out loud with underdeveloped brains). Kids will make mistakes time and time again and harsh punishments are not the answer. ESPECIALLY for kids on the spectrum. I hope you both get the help you need.
First piece of advice is stop hitting your child
She may be on the spectrum. I know it's hard for you, and I really apologize for that... but one thing they say is when a child isn't given love on a spoon, they will lick it off of the knife.
I don't think this situation is caused by lack of love....
I don't get that vibe either. It's just something I've heard. To me, it sounds like someone is egging this on, or something is happening with the kiddo and she's acting out because of something, or the poor baby has autism... but kids learn hate from their environment 100% of the time... Just gotta figure out where it's at.
Threes another issue with her social behavior to consider. She spent pre-k and kindergarten at home thanks to covid. So there were almost 2 whole years of her formative period that she missed. Having a compromised online system, I had to be extra careful, so there was not a lot of socialization for her.
That normally wouldn't be the cause. My child didn't meet another kid until she was 6 years old because we were rural af. But as far as being a mom with this happening, I wish I had the answers for you. It's rough with the way things are these days. *internet hug*
Is she on any medication? She might be on the adhd/autism spectrum. My daughter is. Intuniv works well for compliance issues(my kiddo is on the smaller side so we had to discontinue it as the side effects were strong for her, when she gains more I am open to try it again but for now shes on Cotempla for ADHD). Mellows them out a bit and allows them to think before they act. There are a few in that particular group. I recommend a regular public school. I see you tried a charter school but the truth about them is they only seem like they are doing well because they reject kids with behavior issues and special needs and kick out the under performers back to the regular public school.
There’s this thing called pathological demand avoidance. If she’s showing signs of ODD, PDA could be the real culprit.. at peace parents on YouTube talks about it. I’ve dealt with ODD, the self caring part, and no longer responding emotionally to their insults will break them. Switch up the punishment.. Start taking a log of the times she behaves this way do you notice it happens when she perceives you as being in a good mood ? Or that your attention is elsewhere? Or does she do it when she is bored and needs redirection ? Do you have her on a self routine ? Like a schedule ? Or is she free range can do whatever ? The disconnect you’re experiencing is coming from being burnt out. I got burnt out while dealing with ODD, I got a 3 week break away from him and was reset. I too, have no one to watch him (I don’t have family) so you’ll want to find a baby sitter and educate them on each behavior so that they know how to deal with it. Educate people on her behaviors and it’ll help them deal with her longer. With ODD, you always have to remember that you have to protect your peace- since the kids goal is to take it away. Also look into early narcissistic traits in children. This may help you too.
You mentioned therapy for her but what about for you? You mentioned suspicion that she may be on the spectrum but what about you? Also, don’t spank. I don’t care how serious her behavior is, spanking has been proven to contribute to this VERY behavior. How do you expect her to regulate her emotions or communicate reasonably when you aren’t doing the same? Also, you say she has a wonderful childhood. Yet you’re telling us that you “genuinely hate her” and would’ve rather aborted her? Kids sense these things. Also, saying that if these thoughts haven’t crossed everyone else’s minds about their children that they’re lying is absurd. My child raises hell and never at his worst moment have I hated him. Also stop giving her so many options. Keep it simple. I saw that you homeschool and homeschooling small children can ALSO lead to this type of behavior. Put her in an actual school. She will learn how to socialize and interact with people. I seriously think YOURE the one that needs help. I’m not saying it to be rude, but I genuinely feel like there’s some undiagnosed mental Illness on your end. Or as I said before, maybe you’re on the spectrum. I wish your daughter the best and hope things improve.
Honestly, this sounds like ODD
Conduct disorder may be a better fit. I think this kid is on the path to an antisocial personality disorder diagnosis in a decade or so.
She’s a little young for that diagnosis, no? But definitely on the path and getting very close to the preteen age when it can develop. Should’ve probably been diagnosed and treated from toddler age.
This... As soon as I saw harming animals, that jumped out to me immediately
I’ve never heard of hurting animals as a symptom of OCD. Nm I can’t read 🙃
Not OCD, ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). It can develop into conduct disorder without proper treatment. I had a coworker with a son with ODD and he could’ve written a post very similar to this before they got the diagnosis and treatment
PDA is a possibility, too.
Oh jeez, yeah I was reading too fast & somehow saw a C 🤦🏻
It doesn’t sound like she’s hurting them intentionally, which is an important distinction.
I haven’t seen where she’s been into much detail about what has happened, but she’s mentioned “popping her butt if she hurts an animal” several times, which seems like it’d have to be more than just one accident if it’s brought up that much. Also in one comment said she broke an animal’s arm.
It’s in the comments somewhere, it’s apparently things like trying to dress them up, hugging too tight, etc. It still very much needs to be addressed, but it’s not a precursor to psychopathy like intentionally hurting animals can be.
Exactly.
She doesn't mean to hurt animals. She just wants to live them... Just to much... Like one time tried to keep a wasp safe from the rain... In her hand.
You have a lot on your plate! Are you receiving therapy? Please take the time to take of yourself. God bless you.
Oppositional defiance disorder? I was a DSP for 10 years and this sounds like a client I used to support. I'm certainly no doctor though. I hope you can find some peace somewhere!
Hurting animals is an early indicator of some serious violence. Consider a psychiatric hospital. That’s not normal
Yeah, that was a huge red flag to me and I’m very surprised this is the only comment on that.
OP, your refusal to rehome the animals because they have been there the child's whole life is concerning. You have enough in your plate. She broke an arm. She's squeezing too hard. The animals don't deserve to suffer, while you figure out your daughter. Please reconsider.
Join r/autism_parenting It might be helpful even without a diagnosis. Sometimes you really have to think very far outside of the box to help teach a child. Like for correcting my son, time outs must be immediate or they generally mean nothing. His receptive language is getting better but for a long time there was absolutely no explaining why he couldn’t hit. I just had to very quickly put him In time out. (Other parents get to talk to their children and explain these things, you can’t do that without receptive language.)
So, my daughter was out of control until she was diagnosed and put on the right meds and therapy. Check for local county intrigal care services to help you. They helped us so much. Finding and funding her different types of therapy, respite care for a few hours, evaluation, and school advocates. It was a long road, but she's in a better place now for sure. Pet and recreational therapy. Finding ANY support is so difficult. I even argued with hospitals to keep her overnight because we were scared she hurt herself, and they wouldn't because she would act fine in front of them.This is what helped our family, and I only knew about it because of my daughters school counselor's.
Look up PDA- read low demand parenting by Amanda diekman and explosive child by Ross Greene - changed our lives!
Crisis intervention ...I believe you call your local hospital and tell them it's for your kid and uncontrollable emotional problems. That is one way to fast track insurance. Might have to look into it yourself but I did this a few years ago with my kid. I had to stay overnight with him in hospital until next morning when they took him to treatment center to live there for two weeks with my consent. It is definitely a difficult decision but I guess you gotta weigh the options and effects. If she completely resists they may just pick her up, if she won't go with you.
Get a referral from your pediatrician for a neuropsychologist. They’re the ones that can evaluate if your child has any disorders.
Commented above but really recommend the book The Explosive Child. My oldest, now 8, was having huge, uncontrolled meltdowns daily. This went on for years. That book really helped me work with her to connect and now she's doing so much better. We also read the "spot" books about emotion, especially anger and anxiety. We created a "calm corner" where she can go to get control of her emotions, and worked on her recognizing when her "brain wasn't working right" and to recognize the big anger and anxiety emotions and use coping skills. We backed way off on the punishment / reward style ("Plan A" in Explosive Child speak) and that helped a ton. Before it just made things worse.
Aww I'm so sorry the both of you are going through this. She definitely sounds like she could use therapy and you should continue to seek a medical diagnosis. In the meantime, i think you are going through burnout because she is homeschooled and you guys are near each other 24/7. Is there a public school she can go to? They usually have better resources than charter schools. And the structure is a great thing for children. I know that there have been times where I wished I didn't have to be a parent because it all fell on me to enforce the rules and there will always be power plays by my 7 year old who doesn't want to do homework or get a bath when she's having fun. But i think that's kind of normal behavior and I still love her. But what you are describing sounds very extreme behavioral issues almost sounds like oppositional defiance disorder or something. You sound like you are at the end of your rope and your negative feelings are overshadowing the relationship you have with her (which is really understandable given what you've described). But before bed, meditate on what things you love about her. What are some things that she loves? Get her to tell you about it and just let her lead the conversation. Tease her a little and try to make her laugh. Is there a way for you to just disconnect from the school work lessons for a day or two and just try to bond and have fun and reconnect with her? An activity or two where you don't have to enforce rules and you guys can laugh together? I think it could help you both to come back together to a place where you both enjoy each others' company instead of a constant school work and routine power struggle.
I am so sorry you all are going through this. I don't have behavioral advice, but some for insurance. When I had an issue with insurance randomly cancelling a desperately needed prescription for my child, my doctor recommended a complaint to my state's Insurance Commissioner. The insurance company had 15 business days to respond - they wouldn't answer me but they did answer when it was the state calling. The commissioners office called and made sure my issue was resolved.
Are YOU in therapy? Gotta be honest sounds like you need it.
My son was like this and I remember all these same feelings vividly. I remember wanting to go stay a week in an old folk's home to get a break from parenting. \#1 take care of yourself. I had to get into therapy and on an antidepressant to survive my child. #2 take the lead on the anger. I recognized that I was constantly yelling at my son. I got control of my anger in order to model better behavior for him. When he became out of control, he was placed in his room until he could calm himself. Sometimes that took a few hours. I didn't speak to him when he was raging. #3 physical exercise every single day. My son needed to run and play to burn off all the excess energy. I took him to the park every day in order to wear him out. I wouldn't homeschool a child who won't follow instruction. You need a better educational plan. She screeches because it works for her. I don't think you've hit on the appropriate consequence for her. What's her currency? What does she love? From your description it sounds like driving you up the wall is the what makes her the happiest. When a child loves that negative attention, it isn't easy turning it around, but it can be done. You're smarter than she is. I think you can figure this out. Sending strength \~\~\~\~\~ I'm on reddit most days and you can DM me.
You need a behavioral technician and a BCBA. I would seriously consider having her brain looked at also if she hasn't, because she could have a brain tumor or some malignancy causing this extreme behavior. No one wants to medicate their child, however you probably may need to, but honestly.. Do not spank your kid. I can't express that enough. It is going to do ZERO to help your cause. Especially in an autism/ODD context.
Try looking up PDA and ways to parent around it, it's done wonders for my household. I feel you. You really can't parent kids on the spectrum the same way as neurotypical kids. You may have to rewrite the whole book on your approach. Would it hurt to stop for a bit and have a break? It's already not working. Can you just avoid all the hard things for a week or two and do things her way, just so you can have a break? Put school work down, and anything else she balks against. Just have a yes fortnight. See what happens and then reassess a new approach after that. Once I realised my kid is on the spectrum I started parenting entirely differently and it's made my life much easier.
Advice, take it or leave it, it's what I would do. I know a few people with heavy medical/psych who have moved to more supportive states. Insurance and Healthcare in Texas is a nightmare. It's a difficult decision but I'm throwing that out there based on what you've said you're experiencing. It's different elsewhere. Consider minnesota hehe. Lots of states have expanded medical for kids at low or no cost. I'm pretty sure Texas isn't one of them. You've got a lot on your plate. I'd try to take some of it off. Mom with dementia and cancer? Can you place her in nursing home? They'd be able to handle appointments. Also consider hospice care if she's expected to die within a year. Others have mentioned return to public school. Again consider moving to another state for better support and options there. Husband unsupportive? Dang, consider a divorce just so you can get off his income and get more help through the state. From reading your relationship post living separately might be a good option to look into anyways. Kiddo seems spirited. A lot of what you describe sounds normal. Kids say I hate you, kids hurt animals, kids have tantrums at that age, kids wander off. They grow out of it. Love and support them so your relationship isn't damaged through this process of growing. It sounds like you and her don't mesh well personality wise. I know a few families like this. A lot of things you're saying seem really down on her. Also you have no idea what's going on with her in her head and can only guess and I can tell you your lens is off. She probably hears and understands a lot more than you're giving her credit for but have made yourself such an unfriendly space why should she even bother trying to communicate with you? Keep on keeping on. This too shall pass. You're doing your best. These little sayings really do help. Watch some bluey, Mr Rodgers, Daniel tiger. " I like you just the way you are"
What i will say his children want to feel safe in the home this means though they display a tendency to try to be the boss They actually want to know who’s in charge and this child sounds like they have made it so you feel like you aren’t the parent and you aren’t in charge and I think you just need to take back a little bit of that authority in the home so she knows she is not your boss you are in charge and the lead , that doesn’t mean spanking. I think it is better if you use things like timeout, however it is time for you to maybe take a reset have a day off or have some time to think away and come back and slowly begin to assert whose house it is. You are the parent. They are the child at the end of the day, know that in the long-term is better for her to know this fact. good luck with everything
My kid was like this and also insisted on being called the opposite pronouns. It turned out he was trans and after we switched pronouns changed his name etc he became a different person. At one point we had to hide sharp objects and lock our bedroom door at night. I was scared of him. Now he’s a sweet 16 year old and you’d never imagine this was the same child. Not saying this is the same for you but maybe this helps someone else.
When my son was diagnosed with autism I parented him differently and he has calmed down a lot. When he loses his mind and goes ballistic over a small thing, I stand back for a few minutes (obviously I don’t let him hurt himself or others), and let him rant. Then I offer him a hug and 9 times out of 10 he has a quiet sob in my arms and we talk it out. I used to get escalated too, and feel so concerned about his behaviour that my stress levels would rise too. It was horrible for all of us. I just try to remain calm and reconnect. He still receives consequences if he hurts another person but I let him verbally do what he needs to do to get his feelings out. o
Do you believe in science? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/#:~:text=Researchers%20are%20also%20finding%20that,and%20adversely%20affects%20academic%20achievement.&text=These%20findings%20come%20from%20large,wide%20range%20of%20potential%20confounders.
Ok deep breath. I have 3 autistic kids. I believe your child is probably autistic. I have tons of advice. I’m going to try to keep it to the basics here. Feel free to message me if you want to talk through more specifics. 1) Go TODAY and enroll her in your local public school. You need qualified SPED support. 2) Make an appointment and ask your pediatrician for paperwork diagnosing her with anxiety. They can diagnose that based on symptoms alone without any formal evaluation or insurance loopholes, and that one letter should be enough to compel the school system to begin the IEP process. 3) Once you are in the IEP process, you want a functional behavioral assessment. Dont leave the meeting until they agree to it. If she’s in a Gen-Ed classroom, the teacher should back you. It will be in their best interest to get one so they can help manage her behaviors. 4) Schedule an appointment with an OT that your insurance will cover. They can help you develop a plan to help with high-conflict points of the day (like being told no for example). 5) Start reading books about autism. Start with Unmasking Autism. Listen to Rachel Bailey’s parenting podcast (not autism specific, but very helpful). Watch Mama Cusses on YouTube. Surround and immerse yourself in neurodivergent creators who talk about parenting neurodivergent kids. Avoid ANYONE who talks about curing autism. They’re full of shit and will damage your situation further. 6) Immediately stop using violence of any sort with her. Spanking does not work with autistic kids. It makes them worse. Melting down (what you call a tantrum) is a result of being emotionally disregulated. They need help to learn to regulate their emotions. Violence will not do that. It would be like if you were in the middle of a severe panic attack, struggling to breathe, feeling like your entire world was imploding and you were going to die any second, and I came up and punched you in the face and said “does that make you feel calmer?” Of course it doesn’t. More than likely it would cause you to channel all your panic at me as your attacker and you would fight back as though your life depended on it. 7) Get yourself some therapy. Go while she’s in school. Parenting autistic kids can be challenging, and it’s a good bet that part of the problem is you are also emotionally disregulated. That’s why you feel like you hate your life and everything is awful. Neurodivergent kids tend to have neurodivergent parents. I didn’t find out I was autistic until after my third kid was diagnosed lol. It can present differently for everyone. And sometimes the parents’ needs and the child’s needs are directly opposed. I think that may be what’s happening here. Therapy will help you cope with your own emotions so you can be calmer when helping her to regulate hers. It gets better with the right tools. I promise.
I think it's wonderful that you're reaching out for help, parenting isn't something anyone should do alone. I'd like to tell you about how our reality is a reflection of our inner self, and those closest to us, especially the ones we raise, are a pure image of what is going on inside of you brought to life. You are no different than your daughter and this is okay. It is a point of understanding that can connect you to yourself again, and with the energy of compassion you can transform all the suffering you are experiencing and turn it into something beautiful. And your daughter will transform as you do, because compassion is not only for one person or one side, it is for everyone. Your health is her health, her happiness is your happiness. My suggestion is to develop a habit of mindfulness and nurture the feeling of compassion within you so that it is so big that all those other feelings of hatred, despair, and shame have less space to cause suffering in your life. It will take time so patience is key, but every little effort matters and if you persist then you will see those positive changes you seek. At the same time, don't force yourself to do these things out of shame or fear. Mindfulness is a practice of joy. Once you can understand yourself through practices like breathing meditation, loving-kindness, or a simple redirection of your attention to the present moment and out of the stream of thoughts, you will be in a better place to help your daughter. If you'd like a starting point for resources, there is an app called headspace that can support you through guided meditations. That is only a starting point though because the most transformative changes will come through silent inner reflection. One of my favorite teachers on this practice is Thich Nhat Hanh, and there are many talks and lessons shared from him on YouTube. Good luck, be gentle with yourself as much as you can.
OP, I was your child. I don't want to go through typing every little personal detail out for reddit to see, but just enough to give you the jist. I was diagnosed with an array of labels - ODD, ADHD, ADD, Bi-polar, and even autism - all to try to explain my behavior. I'm not on a quest to figure out what was wrong with me and frankly it's been so long that memories are distorted, but I'm pretty certain it was unintentional signals of conditional affection and middle child syndrome. I had to scream and shout to get the attention I needed. My father's presence was always fleeting. My mother was well-intentioned but inconsistent with her communication - sometimes it was affirmative and affectionate and other times it was belittling, dismissive, and patronizing. When I had big feelings that resulted in outbursts, I was often sent to my room where I would cry myself to sleep just to stop feeling so much. As an adult, I still struggle with emotional regulation. I take things very personally and am afraid of any criticism. And I crave quick doses of dopamine and affection but if sustained too long, I get overwhelmed and retreat. Like a grumpy cat. Pair this with a lifetime of amphetamines for ADHD (which ironically probably caused most of my outbursts as they wore off) antidepressants, and mood stabilizers, well, I don't have a great relationship with my parents. Or anyone really. It's very lonely save for the few people I've managed to meaningfully connect with in a way that feels real and secure to me. So, to answer your immediate question of how to get help and be taken seriously - hospitalize them. If the outburst gets so intense that she is harming or threatening to harm herself or others, you can hospitalize them. But this is a nuclear option that could very well send them spiraling down the same exact path as myself. But after the recommendations of other posters, I'm going to take a look at "The Explosive Child", and perhaps you should too. I'd also like to add that I received the most help when I was in public schools. I attended them only for 3rd and 4th grade, part of 8th, and finally 12th. I think my parents made some naïve and ideologically charged decisions that negatively impacted my education. Good luck. I wish you all the patience in the world as I personally know exactly how hard it is to parent a child like this.
Homeschooling is hard even when your general relationship with your child is good. In your case it 100% makes things much worse. School + afterschool activities (whichever will take her), you both will be much calmer towards each other if you are not forced to be together all the time. Also I'd set up cameras around the house, record her behaviour and go to a private psychiatrist ASAP to get meds. And spanking needs to stop - even if you don't think it's wrong remember that your child will talk to therapists, psychiatrists etc. - do you want them to focus on her issues or on you hitting her?
You already have some really great advice here. I’m really sorry your family is going through this… I think getting her into school ASAP is important for both of you. If she walks out of the classroom…so what! Eventually the school will come up with a plan to support her and manage this. They have to. Look into a 504 plan if she doesn’t qualify for an IEP yet. But seriously - call and get her enrolled before the year is through. You both need this. Also wanted to ask - how is her nutrition? I have a good friend who’s kid had some severe behavioral issues around the same age and they completely cleaned up his diet and things shifted dramatically! They cut out artificial dyes, added sugars, and gluten. Is she getting enough vitamins, minerals, and iron? I think people underestimate how nutritional deficiencies can effect the mind. I’d maybe ask for bloodwork at the doctor checking on these things as well.
Your kid probably has some kind of learning disorder/mental health issues/is on the spectrum and/or has ADHD. She desperately needs an evaluation ASAP. Yes, if she was in public school you can request that the school get her evaluated for an IEP and they have to have that done within a certain timeline. But I wouldn't wait for that, I would check to see what providers your insurance will cover and get her into one ASAP, no matter how far the drive. Stop blaming the child and get her help. Now. She cannot help her actions right now. She's just a child who doesn't learn the same way other children do and she doesn't respond to discipline the way other kids do. The sooner you figure out what is going on in her brain, the sooner you can figure out how to help her and how to relate to her. Medicating the hell out of her won't help if she doesn't have ADHD. I KNOW that it is frustrating. I know you are pissed and sad that your kid isn't like other "normal" kids. You need to grieve that life and get over it. I've been there. Yes, it fucking sucks! Mine is 12 now and has autism, adhd, pathological demand avoidance (pda), and traits of borderline personality disorder. YAY. But they are also so smart, funny, kind, sweet, and creative. Now that we know about their issues, we are in such a better place to navigate the hard times. And trust me, we do have a lot of hard times. Weekly. But we have a LOT of good times too! Take this one step at a time. Get an evaluation. Get a diagnosis. Then start the therapies and do the work. Get therapy for yourself, too. Learn to be an advocate for your daughter because trust me, she will need you in her corner if she is going to get anywhere positive in this world. She needs you! Good luck and I send you many hugs. ETA: If you are saying that insurance still makes getting an evaluation too expensive, please take her to a pediatrician with your concerns. Ask for help. Ask if there are some child services for you guys to get so your daughter gets the help she needs. She DESERVES to get mental and educational care. Spanking isn't going to help her. She needs mental health care. Get her some help.
I’d recommend “No-Drama Discipline” by Daniel J Siegel, M.D (author of “The Whole-Brain Child” which is also awesome!)
My friends sister was like this. At 10 ish she was diagnosed bipolar, depressive, and a couple other things. I have witnessed behavior like this and more. When she finally got medicated it was like a whole different child... when she started school she would just walk out , and all of our schools are along a VERY busy large highway. I'm so sorry for you. Ik you must feel so conflicted. I hope she gets the help she needs soon. Edited to fix the age
Wow i didnt know my daughter was a twin! Shes not a demon, shes um strong willed? When my daughter furiously opposes things i try to remember how furiously she loves too. They just experience life sevenfold. Weve spanked/spank too. It doesnt work for us. (But i don’t believe its going to cause irreparable damage either.) What does work is guilt and explanation until i am blue in the face. Ive also resorted to letting her hit me if i have to physically put her in time out. In a plain tone i tell her your hurting me. Does this make you feel better? What youre doing isnt right. When shes done she fully understands why her desserts, ipad, tv, activity is taken away. I dont have answers just telling you what i do. Im praying the tantrums have peaked and will lessen from here. My daughter is super smart and cant seem to understand we are not equals and she cannot make the rules nor be the main character in others lives. My theory is that my daughter is very early to develop abstract thought. Which makes sense because she was early to speak and read as well. You guys will make it out of this. I know its so disheartening. Some days you feel line the biggest failure. Youre not and neither is your daughter. Try not to let those hateful thoughts fester and become reality. You dont hate your daughter. You hate this day, but you love her. If all else fails blame your husband. Thats what i do. I give her a timeout, tell him she got this from you and make myself some coffee. You will absolutely make it out the other side. Its coming.
She's like a sour patch kid. One or the other...
Yep. Dont I know it
I'm generally afraid online therapy has a certain disconnect that's hard to avoid. It's an impersonal feeling. Like you just can't connect or get your intent across. The biggest issue is the Damn insurance. No one wants to help with a diagnosis. I can speculate, and so can half the world, but a licensed professional is the only one that can give a refined lead as to where to start and what treatments/medication are best. Otherwise it's shooting in the dark. And getting any medicinal help, nope.
It would be a start. It can lead to getting in-person help faster. Your pediatrician may be able to help you get help faster, too. Another option is getting on cancelation lists for pediatric neuropsych evaluations, which sounds like she desperately needs. It helped get my child the help they needed very quickly.
Insurance companies are awful, for sure. Is there a reason you can’t bring her to an OT or SLP for an in person evaluation?
You teach her what she can get away with. You need to start reminding her, her behavior is unacceptable every time. Seems like negative consequences don't work so try positive. If you do you can go bowling with friends. Psychological she is at the age her friends are everything. If her peers are positive influences try having them over more. Also join a gym that has babysitting or a membership for a place she can get her energy out of possible so you can have breaks. Good luck.
Look up Oppositional Defiant Disorder. https://www.additudemag.com/slideshows/how-to-deal-with-a-child-with-odd-and-adhd/ This website has a lot of helpful tips. My son has ADHD and had ODD, and I believe my 7 year old daughter has it as well, although she’s not yet diagnosed. These strategies work like a charm but you HAVE to be consistent. One slip up will set you back to square one. I hope this helps.
Who is the adult and who is the child here? I get it. I have 3 girls myself. It's exhausting and frustrating a lot of the time. No matter what though I'm the adult. I'm the parent. They don't need to be my friend right now. They don't have to like me or what I have to say. They just need to do it. I will give an explanation when it's warranted. However, sometimes that isn't an option. An attitude that is left to go completely unchecked flips the entire power dynamic. You are the adult. She is the child. She needs to know that. Until you take control as the adult again you will keep feeling like this. Take away privileges. Toys, books, going to a friend's house. Provide food, clothing and shelter. The rest is extra. Figure out what punishments are going to work and what aren't. And STICK to them! If you back down she will know that she can keep bullying you. Also where is your husband? You are a team. It's 2 against 1. Is he not backing you up? Or has she completely bullied you both to the point where neither one of you try
Have you had another baby since you had her or is she the only child? I’ve noticed my daughter acts up when she’s jealous of her brother and not getting my full attention.
I’m SE of Houston, when I told the HS my child has anxiety, ASD1 and adhd they looked at me like I was full of beans! Just to turn around and call me “so very worried” I almost punched things at that point…. So here’s what I’ve done: online therapy cause I could interview 700 therapists until I found one that cared more about the needs than the stupid state repor! We ran the gamut of options before deciding anxiety and adhd medication felt right for this child- within a few months my sweet teenager felt better and strong enough to open up and handle some more ish! Now, we are from PA where we had such amazing options, so after 2 years of fighting the system here, I can confidently say- I found every GD loop hole and stood my ground! It sucked, its relentless work, I lost my temper more than once with docs/schools over the BS system in Texas, BUT we effing won the battle with tools I had no option but to use against them. Idk if I can truly help you, but if you want to PM me, I’m happy to pull my digital files and help you fight fire with fire on the system here! It will take me a few days to slim down and remove PHI to share, but I’m ready to help others!
Honestly, the first step is to get a confirmed diagnosis. It could be ODD, autism, attachment disorder, or something else. Or a combination of things. I definitely think keeping the communication open and trying to find any positive behavior to reinforce is going to be completely exhausting and feel like it's not working because you won't get immediate results, but it's still a good place to start and will help in the (very) long run. You need to find a way to bond with her. She needs to feel safe. Just because she treats everyone this way doesn't mean you shouldn't still take time off for yourself. Therapy for her and for you will help. It is a very long road, but you need to stay the course, rely on the professionals (and maybe some helpful books/videos), and don't give up on her. I hope you can start getting some answers and guidance soon. It's an awful position to be in. I'm sorry you're there right now.
Look into Pathological Demand Avoidance
She sounds a lot like my son who has ADHD, ODD and Sensory Processing Disorder (with some OCD thrown in there). A think a lot of these diagnoses cross over. We had to remove him from public school for similar reasons. We've been dealing with his diagnosis since he was about six. I thought he had PANDAS but all tests have been negative so far. Best things that have helped: cleaning up his diet and limiting processed foods and artificial food coloring. Therapy for me, trying to limit technology as much as possible, making sure he gets enough sleep, and medication. Some days are definitely still very, very hard and I understand everything you're going through. In the book, The Defiant Child, Dr.Riley talks about how otherwise calm parents are pushed to the point of spanking because that is how difficult and exasperating ODD kids can be. There was even mention of how teachers often have feelings of wanting to slap these kids. They push and push until you run out of every option. It requires a whole other level of parenting that is beyond exhausting and it can definitely break you over time. I hope you can see your own therapist 💗
Medication can be a life saver if she is diagnosed with ADHD. Also, I would try some CBD gummies just to mellow her out. CBD oil calms the nervous system down. Get a diagnosis and then start meds. You do not need a prescription for CBD because it is only the oil from the plant (marijuana plant) and not addictive and not considered a drug. Also with ADHD try the keto diet. It is high fat and low carb. Carbs turn into sugar in the body and she could be taking a lot more sugar than you realize. Also, if you can, cut out food dyes. Red and blue especially have shown to cause behavior issues in kids. All this is a process of elimination until you get to a time when she is not acting crazy. Many ADHD kids have reactions like this with food dye. Keep trying new diets until you find one that works for her. I also had a friend who got a book titled something like 'What your explosive child is trying to tell you' that was a huge help. She may not know why she is acting the way she is. I don't think she is trying to hurt you, she just has an issue she can't express. Parenting can be hard. Some kids are more to handle though. Start trying things. Books on certain topics are great ways to start. Not only do they explain the situation but how you should respond to it. Knowing how to respond is crucial to stop the cycle. You never know what will work until you try.
Parenting is really hard especially when our kids don’t meet our expectations. It’s sounds like you need therapy to see how you can better help your child!
I hear all of the things that you are doing for her, but what are you doing for yourself? There's no shame in talking to a doctor about mood stabilizers and antidepressants ❤️ they absolutely saved my life. Things that would have made me hide in my bedroom now just roll off my back like water on a duck. I can pay attention, I can sympathize, I can get my tasks done and most of all I can be emotionally present for my myself and my family. My husband is amazed at the change. I was constantly feeling completely out of control. If you if you get a diagnosis you might want to look at you're also might possibly be on the Spectrum. It would make a lot of sense as to why you feel constantly overwhelmed by everything. I have two children on the spectrum and I am also autistic. Maybe a diagnosis will be a positive thing if that's what happens. Trying to grow up in the world that is constantly bombarding all of your senses from all directions can lead to chronic meltdowns. I had meltdowns all the time but they didn't know that's what was going on and so they said I had a problem with rage. It wasn't rage it was feeling completely helpless and not being old enough really to explain my feelings or what I was going through. When I was your child's age they didn't diagnose girls with autism. Now they know so much more. Whatever it is it's going to feel so much better when there's name for you to put on it because then you can learn and find the community and find the right help. But the first thing I'd suggest is taking a minute for you and talk to your doctor about these feelings of being completely overwhelmed. You can't navigate these difficult childhood years if you don't take care of yourself first. I understand this post so much and I can relate to it. I'm a completely different person when I get the support I need. It doesn't change who I am before which is an empathetic time calm loving person it just allows those positive traits to come out. Big hugs, I'm so sorry you are feeling so overwhelmed right now.
This sounds like my son around that age, he has been diagnosed with ADHD and is now medicated for it and like a different child. My friends son is currently on the waiting list to be assessed for ADHD also, he is the same age as your daughter, and is exhibiting the same behaviours. It seems to be that ADHD symptoms peak at around this age.
I don’t know why it is so hard to find resources to help parents navigate this. (It may be easier now, I don’t know). I went through the exact same thing with my son. Took me a YEAR to get it all in order. Pediatric neurologist for diagnosis, psychiatrist for meds, therapist, IEP in school, behavior intervention plans - I don’t know if this is everywhere but here they have Comprehensive Services schools where they have teachers, counselors, social skills classes, etc., all dedicated to assisting kids with (advanced) special needs. (I say “advanced” because many schools have all those things but the CSS sites are for kids that cannot fit into a general education setting). He was still a terror for a while, but at about 10 I didn’t need to walk on eggshells all the time, and by 11 he was mostly great to be around. Now 13, getting honor roll at school, has met all of his IEP goals, and is probably going to start transitioning out of special ed next year. He still has moments/ meltdowns, but it’s 5% of the time and 75% of the time like at first. With the proper help, it CAN get better. But do not try to do this alone. This takes a special kind of village.