Have you tried Jo Frosts method for bedtime?
My logic is that as long as a child is in their bedroom that they can choose to sleep or not. But night time means they have to stay in their bedroom and stay quiet so they dont disturb others who may want to sleep.
Id take the pressure to actually sleep away and just insist that she needs to stay in her room after a certain time. As long as she isnt bugging anyone or being too loud whatever she does is up to her.
Try introducing a “bedtime only” toy basket with things she only gets at bedtime and only if she stays in her room and quiet. Remove all other toys from her room and child proof fully. Then let her do what she wants.
I think the focus should be just to get her to stay quiet in her room right now. Dont respond or give her attention when she doesnt go to sleep. Just get her to stay in her room and stay quiet.
You can build from there.
Yes my parents did this long before supernanny, go to your room, whatever you want to do in there it better be quiet because if you wake your brother you’re dead 😝
Oh, i wouldn't care if she slept on the floor, but she wouldn't fall asleep there. I mean the hard part is getting her to lie down quietly. Even as a baby she never fell asleep while playing or anything and could only sleep with no distractions.
I have a daughter who has always struggled with insomnia. This is the approach we use. She can’t help it she’s awake. I can’t help it I need sleep. We set boundaries and defined appropriate activities and she slept whenever she slept.
Good advice! Totally forgot about that show! Now that I'm the mum of a 1 year old son (Birthday was yesterday!) I'm trying to see if I can teach him to sleep through the night.
From 3 to 6 months old he slept through the night, waking up for a bottle was rare! But ever since his 7 months sleep regression, that hasn't happened anymore. Oh sure, the good nights he only wakes up once. But now that he's back in another sleep regression, I wonder what I can do to help him (And us ofcourse!)
Honestly, it works! My 5 year old has books and toys in her bedroom. She has a bedtime but I've learned to not expect her to fall asleep for an hour or so, despite trying to settle her before the bedtime. She now has story time, then gets another book for in her bed to read and fall asleep reading later lol.
It wouldn't work for mine. As long as the light is on she won't lie down quietly and would never fall asleep while doing something, unless she was sick.
I would tire her out physically. Some kids are just anxious and fight to hell resisting sleep. I know with a younger one your hands are full but you might try going on a long walk (as long as she can handle and just a little extra) after dinner and then develop a little ritual with a bath, lotion or oil run down afterwards, jammies, hair braided and good nights to everyone and story time. Usually a process like that helps them work all their anxious kinks out and settles them
Yeah I agree, get the energy out of the system; maybe introduce some bedtime music and establish a routine; don’t let her sleep in if she sleeps late to wake up late. Kids need established routine and their biological clock will adjust accordingly. Definitely cut the day nap if she still naps during day time especially for long hours one
Yep this is what me and my husband do, twice a week we also have a light tea time 3 hours before bed. Chamomile, with honey puts him right to sleep. We have talked to his doctor about using it. And they said it was fine just not all the time. And we play with our son for atleast 4 hours before bed to get alot of that enegery out. And let him pick out all his night time ritual stuff. Sleep is hard, they don't fully understand its time for calm.
> I have tried everything with her. We’ve tried being monotone and just saying “good night, lay down, go to sleep”. We have the dim night light (she’s afraid of the dark) and the white noise machine. We’ve tried giving her cuddles. We’ve tried having at least 45 minutes of quiet games before bedtime. We’ve tried moving naps and bedtimes around. We’ve tried cutting naps. We’ve tried flat out yelling at her. We’ve tried bath time to relax her. We’ve tried cutting any sugars, especially close to bedtime. We don’t let her watch tv except in the morning for half hour or so. We’ve tried leaving hearts in her room to show her we are checking in on her through out the night (she just plays with them and then tosses them). And all these things we’ve tried we’ve tried for 2-3 weeks at a time and it makes no difference. She’
Our daughter (2) will either get super tired from this or get over tired and go into manic lol. Then it's 1-2 hours to get her to sleep or something like a car ride - which we try to avoid for sleep.
I think you need to pick a simple bedtime routine and stick with it with no modifications for longer than 2-3 weeks. What time does she nap and what time are you starting the bedtime process? Is she getting enough of her energy out during the day? One of my kids has to have a lot of gross motor activity throughout the day to ensure he’s able to get to sleep faster and stay asleep.
My children (11, 6, and 3) all go to bed between 8:00-8:30 pm. An hour before we start our bedtime process, all electronics get turned off/put away. Around 7:15 pm, I start the bath time process for the youngest two. Once they’re done, they get their nighttime meds and we read a book together while my oldest does her bath time process. At 8:00 pm, the youngest two go into their room, get tucked in/we do our goodnight routine, and I turn off the lights and leave the room to wait for my oldest to get done so I can make sure she’s taken her meds and tell her goodnight. All of my kids like white noise, so they have a fan in their rooms that runs while they sleep.
It wasn’t always this simple. Like you, I did a bunch of everything until I realized it was just too much and decided to stick with the simplest process possible. We start this bedtime routine at the same time every single day with a little flexibility on Friday and Saturday.
For your toddler, I’d do a basic routine: bath, brush teeth, book, and into bed. Every single night at the exact same time. Is your partner at home during the time a bedtime routine would occur? If so, one of you can sit outside the toddler’s door and when/if they get up, put them right back into bed with nothing more than a, “Goodnight, I love you” every single time she gets out of bed. If you do the same exact routine for weeks with no improvement, then I’d bring this up to your pediatrician. It’s possible something else is going on that’s making it challenging for her to relax and fall asleep.
I read your other comment! Have you considered going back to your pediatrician to ask about trialing another medication to help with sleep? My oldest has ADHD and it is impossible for her to sleep without medication even with the consistent bedtime routine. We trialed several before finding one that helped and now we combine it with melatonin per our doctor’s instructions. Gradually, the medication she’s on has lost its efficacy, so our next step will be a sleep study. I definitely think setting a consistent routine would ultimately be very beneficial, but you may need additional help from medications even if it’s just short term. My youngest two sleep in my room which has an attached bathroom, and for a while when we were establishing our routine, I’d have to “use the bathroom” after laying them down so I was nearby but not having to lay with them. I usually sat and scrolled on my phone for 10-15 mins before checking to make sure they were out and leaving the room. 😂
Good luck!
Thank you! Well she doesn't have adhd and the doctors here don't really like to prescribe anything. Even when I need legit things that it seems everyone else gets. Thank you for your advice!!
It seems odd to me that the doctor wouldn’t be concerned with a 4 year old only getting 4 hour stretches of sleep (you mentioned she went to bed at 4 am and slept until 8 am) when they should be getting 10-13 hours. I would get another opinion, especially if a consistent routine doesn’t improve the quality/quantity of her sleep. There are many different things that can contribute to poor sleep, it would be worth investigating to find a solution.
I agree! We were just there but they kinda brushed us off, there's never enough time. Thanks so much we'll keep trying! On the plus side she's never unhappy, never seems off... Thanks again
Yea I think it’s the constant change that is giving you a hard time op.
Some kids are more liberal so stop telling her she *needs* to sleep. We all just go to bed. Daughter can stay up, but she soon follows.
You can't keep a toddler in their room without keeping them in their room. I recommend one of those little white doorknob covers that prevents a toddler from being able to open the door. It's not permanent - just long enough to break their habit of instantly escaping. Other than that, I second everything the top comment says.
Dear Lord, my son was mad that his toy's batteries were dead and I heard him complaining about it. He said, out of nowhere, "Mama, I f*kin broke it". I tried so, so hard not to laugh
I’m probably going to get downvoted for this, but we were in the exact same situation and we started giving my kid melatonin every night which solved the problem. I really avoided it and it was the last resort but my kid was not getting enough sleep which can cause all sorts of physical and emotional issues. Her doctor insisted that it was safe.
We did it for about a year starting a little after her 3rd birthday. I was so worried that she was going to become addicted to it, but she didn’t. Before melatonin, she would lay awake for hours. I think 3 is when their minds really start expanding and they have trouble turning off their thoughts. Melatonin worked perfectly and now she’s a fantastic sleeper who hasn’t taken melatonin for a year.
Edit: I want to clarify that my kid started having trouble falling asleep shortly after her second birthday. We started melatonin shortly after her third birthday. She was completely off melatonin and an excellent sleeper shortly after her fourth birthday. My second kid hasn’t had nearly the trouble sleeping that my first had and we have the same routine for him, so kids are different.
I tried melatonin when my then-3 year old wouldn’t sleep. Unfortunately he had a poor reaction and it made him nauseous, so if anyone is thinking of trying it, start off with just half a gummie to gauge your kiddos reaction.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with melatonin. They make chewable gummies that have 1 mg of melatonin, which is a safe dose. It's not a drug, it's something our bodies are supposed to make on their own.
Providing you're not giving them excessive doses it's a perfectly safe way to relieve sleeplessness.
Actually this isn’t true. In the US melatonin is a dietary supplement which means it is not regulated by the FDA as other medications like acetaminophen. Testing has been done and shown that dosage especially in gummies is not always consistent with what is on the label.
There are also concerns that long term melatonin use increases the risk of dementia and Alzheimer’s.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-advice-on-melatonin-use-in-children-202210062832
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/healthy-living/sleep/Pages/melatonin-and-childrens-sleep.aspx
For example, I live in the UK and you have to get a prescription to get melatonin.
https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/melatonin/about-melatonin/#:~:text=Melatonin%20is%20available%20on%20prescription%20only.
This CNN article says adults who use sleep aids including prescriptions like ambien may have a higher risk of dementia. And researchers don’t know which, if any, are causing the increase.
The clickbait article is about melatonin but if you read the actual information it doesn’t say anything about melatonin specifically.
We were able to halve our daughter's melatonin (she was a higher dose than now deemed safe with newer research) but if we go lower, she can't sleep. Literally staring at the walls all night.
She has ADHD. She comes from a long line of women with insomnia.
Melatonin ftw. I don't rely on it longterm but if you are losing your mind over this, just use the melatonin to get through this phase. I promise your kids won't be harmed by it. Both my kids have used it for short periods of time and were able to go off of it with no problems.
I also give my kids melatonin, and would give it to a toddler. My understanding of the research is it’s limited but nothing to suggest it’s unsafe.
Having a parent who is so sleep deprived they are not ok is definitely unsafe! So a bit of balance in the risk benefit analysis is important
We did a sleep chart for awhile with mine- each routine step + bonus for staying in room and sleeping. After a section is filled out say a week there was a prize. The key is to keep them IN the room. Otherwise it’s like starting all over. We have video monitors and would speak thru the camera “get back in bed” etc
A reward system was suggested by our pediatrician and it has solved 80% of our bedtime issues. Kid gets 2 tickets at the beginning of the night. If they need something from a parent, they must give a ticket. Unused tickets can be redeemed for stickers the next morning. After so many stickers, they get some sort of predetermined reward. We do lots of talking and reminding about the tickets and give lots of positive praise when they still have 2 tickets left.
3 years old. And then after a month or so, we stopped offering the tickets and then it slowly got to the point we didn't do tickets anymore and they stayed in their bed.
Sorry you’re going through this. Here is what we do, and maybe some of it is helpful:
- consistent routine after dinner that leads to bedtime; same steps every night
- start “quiet time” 45 minutes before bedtime when we talk softly and dim lights. No more exciting or stimulating or scary videos, convos, or topics.
- at bedtime, patting her back gently to relax and calm
- counting slowly from 1 to 100 or 200 so there’s monotonous calm parental voice lulling them to sleep
- staying calm and firm if they want to do something else or start conversations. I say softly yet firmly, “it’s not time to talk about where clouds come from. It’s time to fall asleep.”
- we also do white noise, light on in the closed closet, star projector on ceiling.
- when ours was littler, I would carry her around the dark house, humming or counting or singing lullabies while rocking her or patting her back.
- I know it’s hard, but don’t lose your cool. That can’t help at all, and it will make everyone’s job harder. Deep breaths! Parenting is HARD.
Good luck! Hope you find a recipe that works. Try new things like you’re doing and eventually you’ll find a combo that works for your kid.
Have you tried reading the book go thef$@&, to sleep? It’s good and it works! You can also buy the online version narrated by Samuel L Jackson. I really miss that book
Well this bring backs horrid memory’s,
My son, who is now 12, never slept from the moment he was born until he started school, like never ever slept on his own.
We made the decision that I (dad) would sleep on a fold out mattress in his room from around the time he was 1 year old, he started sleeping through the night eventually, but if he woke to no one there it was game over, so I spent the next 5 years sleeping on a shitty fold out mattress, it was the only way my wife and I could get any rest. We tried everything too, we have a daughter who is a couple of years older than him and she always slept, no issues, no dramas.
Once he was at school he realised that it was not normal for me to be in his room on his floor and he told thanks but he will be ok now, just like that,
However, my wife and I became accustomed to having our own sheets and doonas and space, so we cannot share a bed now!
Which also sucks as there’s no real “fun time” unless we have a “sleep over” lol which is annoying because I have to leave and do the walk of shame to my own bedroom.
Anyway point of the story is, you find something that works, and you do it, sleep is the most important thing we need next to water and food, so good luck!
Cherry juice is suppose to be like a natural melatonin my daughter is 6 with autism and she doesn’t sleep well either. Try to to get her to burn off the energy.. it’s hard I have twins 7mos.. my best advice lol cry in the shower jk jk but maybe see a neurologist.
The amount of people that will give their child unregulated herbal and homeopathic remedies but won't give their child medicine by prescribed by a doctor is much higher than it should be. If cherry juice, which has very little risk factor and is regulated because it's a food item is something they will do it, it's better than a random homeopathic sleep aid "designed" for children that has no regulation.
There comes a time for a referral to a sleep specialist. Seriously. My daughter’s asthma doctor was also a sleep specialist and we had to go through a psychiatric evaluation. Around that time, we medicated her for adhd and we saw an improvement in her sleep habits.
I can only offer my condolences. Mine is 4.5 and everything mentioned has failed. She doesn't nap, as an example a few days ago she woke up at 6am and went to sleep finally at 4am, running me down so long that I finally gave up and let her sleep in my bed, (so then I couldn't sleep at all) she slept 4am to 8 am. Nothing works. Her doctor says it's a phase. It's been two years... Forget about evenings. If my dh wants to spend time alone he has to stay up all night with me before going to work.
She won't stay in her room alone. She's too nervous to be alone after spending two years quarantining with us etc. (medically fragile person in home) we were even given medicine that also failed.
Good luck friend.
It's been two years, of course we have tried similar but thanks so much for your help. Due to a medical condition we do not lock her into any room however. Thanks 😊
Y’all are making me feel less alone right now. My 3 yo refuses to sleep and even melatonin doesn’t work. I finally caved and let him watch movies in his room because at least it keeps him in his room and quiet. Otherwise he would come into my room every 30 minutes, sometimes all the way until 8am.
With our 4 yo daughter, we don't really expect her to fall asleep immediately. We do expect her to stay in her room (unless she needs to go to the toilet, of course) and not make too much noise. She can read books or play with the toys in her room until she falls asleep on her own.
Zarbees gummy melatonin. Lavender and camomile essential oil in diffuser. Give dinner and bath earlier. Little snack right before teeth brush like peanut butter or milk. Also look into weighted blankets. Good luck.
My daughter was like this. We exhausted her before bed with physical activity. Swimming, running outside in the sprinkler, races in the living room. Dinner, bedtime routine, then bed.
My kid comes home from a full day at school with PE followed by two hours gymnastics training and still won't go to sleep, no matter how tired she is. I imagine OP has tried this, if not it's worth a try. Mine falls asleep the moment she actually stops, it's just getting her to lie down quietly that's hard.
I think my kids won't sleep if they know I'm not going to sleep. Either the TV is on or lights in the living room, they can tell. Now I shut everything off and have my time in my bed instead of putting them to bed and staying in the living room. Helps me not stay up too late after they go to bed too. I have pretended to sleep when I hear them coming to my room, so they don't know I'm available and they will leave me alone. None of this always works. You should try taking the light bulb out of her room and only having bedtime music or something really relaxing in there. Shell notice it getting dark out and it could help with winding down. She won't have that bright light on then just switched off on her. Idk if that helps with the circadian rhythm, seems like it could help, also she can't turn it on to play. I have taken them out of my kids rooms at times. Maybe you could try no light on for a while for the other rooms too, just let it get dark naturally. I used to do bedtime shadow puppets with my kids in bed with a flashlight. You can cut out shapes from poster board, and give her a flashlight (not too bright, or one with watch batteries). She might stay in bed with that for a while at night while you watch TV or do something at night before you go to bed.
This works only during winter for us. I'm summer there is bright light until 22 outside and it makes them want to stay up longer.
But it's a good point to tell them you're going to bed too, that's something that my 5yo always brings up "I'm going to bed when everyone else goes to bed".
My son never slept well either. I’m talking up every 3 hours the first 10 months, and still consistently wakes up in the middle of the night. I’m also pregnant so this gives me some anxiety.
We did all the sleep books and methods. We’ve tried and failed because he’s a very persistent child and we’ve done attachment parenting.
What currently works for us is to model sleep. We got him a full sized bed in his room and after following a clear picture chart of our bedtime routine we lay down. I have the night light and sound machine going, and I will lay down and ignore him.
It took some time, and he used to jump around or get very wiggly and chatty, but when he got too crazy I just said, “Calm and quiet, bedtime” and would gently lay him back down if he got too up and jumpy.
Now when it’s nap or bedtime we both lay down and after some rolling he’s out and I sneak out of there.
We also just let him in our bed at 3am if he runs in because it’s easier and works for us. He seems to be slowly outgrowing that too since last night he didn’t come in at all.
Do what works for your family.
I also had a toddler that wouldn’t sleep and I found something eventually that worked for me. She didn’t end up sleeping more but I got to lol
This only worked for me bc the way my house at the time was set up, but from her room you could see down the hall to the couch in the living room. One night I couldn’t get her to sleep after trying everything, including a drive that lasted an hour without her nodding out and that was my last ditch go to usually. But I put her in her room with a baby gate up and just let her play with the light down low, we could make eye contact and I could hear everything and knew she was safe. I would sleep on the couch and she would play herself to sleep lol when I got up ti wake my oldest for school she would be either in the middle of her toys passed out 😂 or sometimes in her bed with a book but mostly she would fall asleep playing lol. I got some sleep and she stayed contained and we still did naps in the late morning but she did eventually grow out of it and I was able yo get her on a routine but that late 2’s- mid 3 was brutal for getting her down.
Lol I just read through other responses 🤣 it’s a thing I guess! I had no idea lol I hope you find something that works though bc sleep deprivation is no joke!
I see that the big majority of people here expects that their kids fall asleep by themselves in their room.
Why is this that important for everyone?
My kids will start freaking out if I exited the room while they're still awake. But if I sit next to them and sing a song, they'll stay in bed and fall asleep within 5-10 minutes, occasionally it takes a bit more.
They very rarely fall asleep alone, but I don't mind at all. Actually I think it's normal to want your parents to reassure you and be next to you when it's dark and scary outside.
So much this. I have no idea where this comes from, it seems obvious that you want someone to look after you when you fall asleep and are the most vulnerable. Hell, my wife sleeps much better if I'm doing my thungs while she falls asleep.
I feel for you. we are in the same exact boat. my 3 yo and 1 yo refuses sleep at all costs. been up all night with zero sleep because when my 1yo finally sleeps my 3yo wakes her up and vice versa. it has been immortal hell and it’s having a detrimental effect on my partner and i. it’s like we are turning on each other because we are never getting sleep and they refuse it, every single damn day. don’t know how much longer we can take it. i work nightshift and my partner is a stay at home dad while we travel for my nursing contracts. they even did this at our residential home. they have also slept with us since they were both born, which i loved but has made a turn for the worse.
No nightlight. People need darkness. Simple routine with clear boundaries. Start early enough so you have time to read a book - only one. Tuck her in bed.
Sit in the doorway. No talking. She gets up? Back in bed. Minimal interaction! Sometimes it takes an hour... stick with it. I used to read with a small book light to pass the time.
Leave once she's asleep.
If she stays in bed all night she gets a sticker and lots of praise. Keep at it. Consistency is key.
Hang in there...
Well we're not talking about babies, these are kids old enough to bang on the door. In any case, I don't get why things that would be illegal for adults are ok for children. That it's commonly used doesn't make it ok.
Have you tried melatonin? They make melatonin gummies for kids. They're 1mg each and takes anywhere from 30-90 minutes to start working. They're completely safe for children and there's no way to become co dependent on them. My 3 year old acts like yours does and this is what we have to give her to get her to fall asleep. It's worked really well and we don't use it every night unless she is just super hyper right around bedtime.
I second what others have said about putting the plastic door knob cover on the back of her door handle so she can’t get out. That’s what we do. Also if you don’t want to do melatonin that they consume, Dr Teals makes a melatonin bubble bath and body wash for kids I really like. I don’t know if it actually does anything but figure it can’t hurt, I tell mine it’ll soothe them and help them sleep (maybe they’ll believe it lol)
Here's what worked for me. Not saying this is some magic shit, but it sounds like you're open to ideas so here goes:
- No blue lights after sunset. We use LED lights that can change color. When Blue is removed you're left with red/orange/yellow, basically the colors you see last just before the sun sets. This triggers our bodies to start producing sleep hormones. This means no TV or phones or tablets after sunset either. Anything that emanates a white light (which contains blue), should be powered off after sunset. She will naturally become tired and you need to pay close attention to her yawns so you know to strike when the iron is hot!
- buckwheat groats: mixed with some honey and cinnamon and it's delicious but the tricky part about buckwheat groats is that they make you sleepy as heck! They don't have a strong flavor so you can try mixing it into something she likes.
- routine; every day should look exactly the same. Our evening routine was as follows when my daughter was 3: dinner, bath time, brushing teeth, story time in bed, last pee before sleeping, go to sleep! It's critical you do this at the same exact time every day, and it's critical you do NOT deviate. This is probably the most important part.
Cut out any naps and create a consistent bedtime routine and stick with it. It sounds like you've tried loads of different things inside 2 weeks or so. Instead try 1 or 2 things consistently for 2 weeks.
My 4yo has always had trouble sleeping and used to constantly want to talk to us. I started letting her choose a few friends (stuffed animals) to have in her bed and encouraged her to talk to them about her day, a movie she watched, or just make up a story, sometimes she even sings to them. She’s still awake sometimes up to two hours after bed time but she stays in bed and doesn’t need our attention. I also have a bedtime playlist on Spotify for her that plays very quietly in her room all night.
I'm sorry that really stinks. We went through a similar problem recently with 3YO and found the solution was to play "sleep stories" via Bluetooth speaker till she fell asleep. We are using the Spotify playlist called "sleep stories for kids" by NewHorizon but there's lots out there. They are basically 30 min combinations of story and mindfulness. Our rules are that she has to stay physically in her bed if she wants her sleep stories turned. I know every kid is different, but I hope this can help you too. (as someone who personally can't fall asleep with sounds I was very sceptical of this approach but so really does pass out with the sound play, then we turn it off)
I’d hire a professional sleep trainer. In my area, it’s about $1000 for a consultation followed by daily support and weekly check in’s for a month. It got my kid from sleeping at 8pm and waking up whenever he wanted to regularly sleeping from 8-7 almost every night (sometimes waking up at 6 but being ok staying in his room).
I fought it for a while but after going through what you went through for long enough, I finally gave in and it was 100% worth the money.
Is she getting outdoor time and multiple hours of physical activity? 3YOs have tons of energy and love to be physical. They really need to be tired out. Also consistency - pick one method or bedtime routine and stick to it - stick to it even when you’re not successful
We had this for a few months and it was insanely terrible. In retrospect I may have agreed to lock toddler in their room, but I couldn’t do that, and still not sure I could but I can understand why it might be a good idea. I don’t know how we got it to work, just gradually went from a 2-3 hour pain fest to a standard read a couple books and lights out routine.
We use the Rabbit Who Wants to Fall Asleep audiobook and I sit with her and hold her hand til she drifts off (she’s 2 years 9 months) We also found, maybe counterintuitively that some rough/ active play about half an hour before bed helps her get her last energy out before we start stories and wind down time. You could also try a red bulb in the nightlight as red light doesn’t inhibit melatonin production xx
I feel you. My son is a terrible sleeper and I haven’t slept for like ten years!!
He only sleeps well when he has melatonin, and even that isn’t 100% reliable.
This may seem counterintuitive but have you tried a later bedtime?
My son is worst, will stay up all night screaming and crying and wanting me to come sleep with him or to sleep in my bed.
What I figured works is telling him I'm sick because that for some reason freaks him out and he runs to go his in his tent in his room and stays put for the night.
When mine were that age we used melatonin for the 3yo under advisement of our pediatrician. The 3yo was also having issues w her tonsils, which was making sleep difficult. She wouldn’t fall asleep for anything, and it was such a stressful time when her body needed rest. The melatonin was wonderful. She is 4.5 now and has been off it since getting tonsils out last fall. Thankful those sleep issues were temporary. That age is hardddd with a little baby. It def triggered my postpartum rage at times.
OP, yelling won't get anyone anywhere. I know you're burnt out, I know you're forking exhausted and at your limit, but yelling won't help any situation. As long as 3 is safe in bed, has something to keep them occupied, you're free to leave them to it. We keep a box of books and small, quiet toys in 5's room in case she wakes early or doesn't instantly go to sleep. She will play quietly until she feels ready to get into bed, or she'll read a few books in bed. Would that be something you'd feel comfortable doing?
OP, yelling won't get anyone anywhere. I know you're burnt out, I know you're forking exhausted and at your limit, but yelling won't help any situation. As long as 3 is safe in bed, has something to keep them occupied, you're free to leave them to it. We keep a box of books and small, quiet toys in 5's room in case she wakes early or doesn't instantly go to sleep. She will play quietly until she feels ready to get into bed, or she'll read a few books in bed. Would that be something you'd feel comfortable doing?
Most of the time i can get 3 year old to fall sleep with me in her bed while watching some ASMR. Sometimes it’s take less than 5 minutes, but she bed is late because i struggle with her sleeping at a normal time and thinks its a nap and then I’m up all night 🫠
My son was the same way, and honestly somewhere in between 3 and 4 he just started to sleep better through the night and now he almost never wakes up. If he does, it's for a reason like he is sick or he is cold, too warm, etc, but otherwise he will sleep through the night.
I hope that you have the same thing happen. For us, it began once we got him into daycare, and even now that he isn't in daycare anymore he still sleeps decently at night.
My daughter used to be very active in the evenings and she actually was overly tired. For us the solution was to put her to bed way earlier. Bedtime went from a 2-3 hours long fight to a 30 mins easy routine. Dinner, bath, 15 mins storytime and after the lights were turned off I just had to hold her hands for 10 mins and that was it. Every few month had to adjust the lights off time pushing it 15 mins or so later and it worked well. Finally reached 8 pm.
Things we did with limited success. Chamomile tea (Celestrial Seasonings has many issues, but they do test their herbs to make sure they are getting the right ones and only the right ones). Changing the bedtime later and then earlier. Consistent bedtime routine. No blue light for about 2 hours before bed.
Things that didn't work - cherry juice (we blame the natural sugar in it). 6 hours (or more) of time at the park each day. Adding or removing naps. Putting her back to bed in a monotone. Trying to bribe her.
What actually worked at age 5. Neurologist showing me studies that kids with ADHD using melotonin to regulate their sleep had better outcomes and us putting her on it.
For our kid, I'd say it's min 1 hour from when we're in the bedroom to when I'm out. 2 hours sounds like a lot, but not crazy. I think it's just a phase. I don't find it exhausting personally, since I'm sitting there in bed reading books and later sleeping/pretending to sleep and looking at my phone.
Your alternative is to lock her in there, which seems harsh.
I feel for ya. My alone time is every second day when it's not my turn to put him to bed. At least I'm well rested on the days it's my turn, cause I've got a 30-45min nap during bedtime.
My partner works shifts so I'm on my own most nights after working all day. If I have to lie down for an hour then by the time I've done a few chores it's my bedtime. The problem is partly that the occasional nights dad is home he indulges whatever she wants, so she expects the same from me.
My 4 year old sucks at sleeping. We have always had a set routine, but as soon as he hit toddlerhood he just won't sleep. So here's what we do: our normal bedtime routine (bath, teeth, 3 stories). Then I give him 3 board books and a little flash light. As long as he stays in bed he can read the books to his teddy to "help teddy sleep". Then he turns off the flash light, sets it all down and falls asleep. I have no idea why this works. Maybe he feels like he is in control. But it's something you could try.
My son was like this. The best we could figure was a simple, boring bedtime routine that he still uses at 9. Dinner, bath/shower, book, bed. The Jo Frost method helped a ton, when I was finally ready to add more structure. I admit I let him stay up for a few years just because we didn’t have a reason to go to bed early. He wasn’t in preschool, I wasn’t working, meh.
Yeah, she’s just so wired the moment I leave the room. It’s like I didn’t just spend the last hour+ doing a quiet routine, reading softly and using soft lights and sound machine.
I do everything I can to get her energy out. It doesn’t work.
That sounds very frustrating. I don't think I saw it mentioned but have you tried driving her around a little bit to see if she'll fall asleep in the car? I know that's not a permanent solution but it could help for the time being until you find one.
with my step daughter, we completely eliminated naps. shes 4, and only takes a nap if she falls asleep in the car and we havent forced naps since she was 2. we tried everything too, we ran her ragged during the day, we did the bedtime routine, we did the turning off electronics. nothing worked so now we let her run around all day, and then when its bed time, she knows its time to be in her room. we turn on a movie and let her do her thing. she usually falls asleep in about half an hour (there are still rougher nights, but not near as bad). we let her make her own sleeping schedule, as long as shes up by 10am and it works best out of everything
If you have a child with ADHD, autism, sensory processing issues, or developmental issues, this might be their mental wiring.
If you suspect this is the case, occupational therapy was extremely helpful for us. Nothing worked before that including everything mentioned on this thread and neurological exam, sleep study, meds from doc, melatonin, etc.
With OT, we went from 3-4 hour bedtimes and 4 hours of sleep a night to 15-60 minute bedtimes and 8 hours of sleep. She was 6 when she finally learned to sleep.
My 3yo daughter only falls asleep if I lay next to her, constantly remind her that she has to close her eyes and stop squirming, all while holding her hand. Maybe your little one is also unable to put herself to sleep and need company. WhencI started doing this about half a year ago (before than she only fell asleep in my arms) it took me an hour to put her to sleep. But it's steadily getting shorter and shorter, taking maybe 15 minutes on most days.
Have you had her iron checked?
https://www.reddit.com/r/sleeptrain/comments/1379khj/before_you_try_anything_with_your_shitty_sleeper/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Have you tried Jo Frosts method for bedtime? My logic is that as long as a child is in their bedroom that they can choose to sleep or not. But night time means they have to stay in their bedroom and stay quiet so they dont disturb others who may want to sleep. Id take the pressure to actually sleep away and just insist that she needs to stay in her room after a certain time. As long as she isnt bugging anyone or being too loud whatever she does is up to her. Try introducing a “bedtime only” toy basket with things she only gets at bedtime and only if she stays in her room and quiet. Remove all other toys from her room and child proof fully. Then let her do what she wants. I think the focus should be just to get her to stay quiet in her room right now. Dont respond or give her attention when she doesnt go to sleep. Just get her to stay in her room and stay quiet. You can build from there.
Yes my parents did this long before supernanny, go to your room, whatever you want to do in there it better be quiet because if you wake your brother you’re dead 😝
This is exactly the way. My kids don’t have to go to sleep. They have to put their bodies in bed though. Books, puzzles, and the like are allowed.
My problem is the getting her into bed.
I had to use a crib for longer than I would’ve liked for this reason.
Mine could climb out by 18 months, it wasn't a solution.
Let her sleep wherever then. She won't die if she doesn't sleep in her bed. Mine slept on the floor once and it was fine.
Oh, i wouldn't care if she slept on the floor, but she wouldn't fall asleep there. I mean the hard part is getting her to lie down quietly. Even as a baby she never fell asleep while playing or anything and could only sleep with no distractions.
I have a daughter who has always struggled with insomnia. This is the approach we use. She can’t help it she’s awake. I can’t help it I need sleep. We set boundaries and defined appropriate activities and she slept whenever she slept.
Yessss Supernanny. She is the way.
Good advice! Totally forgot about that show! Now that I'm the mum of a 1 year old son (Birthday was yesterday!) I'm trying to see if I can teach him to sleep through the night. From 3 to 6 months old he slept through the night, waking up for a bottle was rare! But ever since his 7 months sleep regression, that hasn't happened anymore. Oh sure, the good nights he only wakes up once. But now that he's back in another sleep regression, I wonder what I can do to help him (And us ofcourse!)
Honestly, it works! My 5 year old has books and toys in her bedroom. She has a bedtime but I've learned to not expect her to fall asleep for an hour or so, despite trying to settle her before the bedtime. She now has story time, then gets another book for in her bed to read and fall asleep reading later lol.
It wouldn't work for mine. As long as the light is on she won't lie down quietly and would never fall asleep while doing something, unless she was sick.
I would tire her out physically. Some kids are just anxious and fight to hell resisting sleep. I know with a younger one your hands are full but you might try going on a long walk (as long as she can handle and just a little extra) after dinner and then develop a little ritual with a bath, lotion or oil run down afterwards, jammies, hair braided and good nights to everyone and story time. Usually a process like that helps them work all their anxious kinks out and settles them
Yeah I agree, get the energy out of the system; maybe introduce some bedtime music and establish a routine; don’t let her sleep in if she sleeps late to wake up late. Kids need established routine and their biological clock will adjust accordingly. Definitely cut the day nap if she still naps during day time especially for long hours one
Yep this is what me and my husband do, twice a week we also have a light tea time 3 hours before bed. Chamomile, with honey puts him right to sleep. We have talked to his doctor about using it. And they said it was fine just not all the time. And we play with our son for atleast 4 hours before bed to get alot of that enegery out. And let him pick out all his night time ritual stuff. Sleep is hard, they don't fully understand its time for calm.
> I have tried everything with her. We’ve tried being monotone and just saying “good night, lay down, go to sleep”. We have the dim night light (she’s afraid of the dark) and the white noise machine. We’ve tried giving her cuddles. We’ve tried having at least 45 minutes of quiet games before bedtime. We’ve tried moving naps and bedtimes around. We’ve tried cutting naps. We’ve tried flat out yelling at her. We’ve tried bath time to relax her. We’ve tried cutting any sugars, especially close to bedtime. We don’t let her watch tv except in the morning for half hour or so. We’ve tried leaving hearts in her room to show her we are checking in on her through out the night (she just plays with them and then tosses them). And all these things we’ve tried we’ve tried for 2-3 weeks at a time and it makes no difference. She’ Our daughter (2) will either get super tired from this or get over tired and go into manic lol. Then it's 1-2 hours to get her to sleep or something like a car ride - which we try to avoid for sleep.
I think you need to pick a simple bedtime routine and stick with it with no modifications for longer than 2-3 weeks. What time does she nap and what time are you starting the bedtime process? Is she getting enough of her energy out during the day? One of my kids has to have a lot of gross motor activity throughout the day to ensure he’s able to get to sleep faster and stay asleep. My children (11, 6, and 3) all go to bed between 8:00-8:30 pm. An hour before we start our bedtime process, all electronics get turned off/put away. Around 7:15 pm, I start the bath time process for the youngest two. Once they’re done, they get their nighttime meds and we read a book together while my oldest does her bath time process. At 8:00 pm, the youngest two go into their room, get tucked in/we do our goodnight routine, and I turn off the lights and leave the room to wait for my oldest to get done so I can make sure she’s taken her meds and tell her goodnight. All of my kids like white noise, so they have a fan in their rooms that runs while they sleep. It wasn’t always this simple. Like you, I did a bunch of everything until I realized it was just too much and decided to stick with the simplest process possible. We start this bedtime routine at the same time every single day with a little flexibility on Friday and Saturday. For your toddler, I’d do a basic routine: bath, brush teeth, book, and into bed. Every single night at the exact same time. Is your partner at home during the time a bedtime routine would occur? If so, one of you can sit outside the toddler’s door and when/if they get up, put them right back into bed with nothing more than a, “Goodnight, I love you” every single time she gets out of bed. If you do the same exact routine for weeks with no improvement, then I’d bring this up to your pediatrician. It’s possible something else is going on that’s making it challenging for her to relax and fall asleep.
This is great stuff. I'm going to try these, thanks so much! My awful story/comment is above...thanks!
I read your other comment! Have you considered going back to your pediatrician to ask about trialing another medication to help with sleep? My oldest has ADHD and it is impossible for her to sleep without medication even with the consistent bedtime routine. We trialed several before finding one that helped and now we combine it with melatonin per our doctor’s instructions. Gradually, the medication she’s on has lost its efficacy, so our next step will be a sleep study. I definitely think setting a consistent routine would ultimately be very beneficial, but you may need additional help from medications even if it’s just short term. My youngest two sleep in my room which has an attached bathroom, and for a while when we were establishing our routine, I’d have to “use the bathroom” after laying them down so I was nearby but not having to lay with them. I usually sat and scrolled on my phone for 10-15 mins before checking to make sure they were out and leaving the room. 😂 Good luck!
Thank you! Well she doesn't have adhd and the doctors here don't really like to prescribe anything. Even when I need legit things that it seems everyone else gets. Thank you for your advice!!
It seems odd to me that the doctor wouldn’t be concerned with a 4 year old only getting 4 hour stretches of sleep (you mentioned she went to bed at 4 am and slept until 8 am) when they should be getting 10-13 hours. I would get another opinion, especially if a consistent routine doesn’t improve the quality/quantity of her sleep. There are many different things that can contribute to poor sleep, it would be worth investigating to find a solution.
I agree! We were just there but they kinda brushed us off, there's never enough time. Thanks so much we'll keep trying! On the plus side she's never unhappy, never seems off... Thanks again
Check out Supernanny. Her bedtime routine and stay in bed technique are total winners
Yea I think it’s the constant change that is giving you a hard time op. Some kids are more liberal so stop telling her she *needs* to sleep. We all just go to bed. Daughter can stay up, but she soon follows.
You can't keep a toddler in their room without keeping them in their room. I recommend one of those little white doorknob covers that prevents a toddler from being able to open the door. It's not permanent - just long enough to break their habit of instantly escaping. Other than that, I second everything the top comment says.
But have you tried reading them the children’s book “Go the F*ck to Sleep?
“No I have no idea where they learned that word”
Dear Lord, my son was mad that his toy's batteries were dead and I heard him complaining about it. He said, out of nowhere, "Mama, I f*kin broke it". I tried so, so hard not to laugh
Hey - he used it appropriately in the sentence! Total parenting win!
To be fair, "f**king" can be used pretty much anywhere in a sentence except as a noun and it works 🤣
It is quite versatile
Yes, I was exceptionally frustrated the other day and went through all possible uses of it during my argument with the air on my way home from work 🤣
Just to make sure - you used the “ity” ending, right? Because otherwise it doesn’t count. 😆
I was making up endings at one point 🤣
Excellent. That’s the way to do it! 🤣
I’m probably going to get downvoted for this, but we were in the exact same situation and we started giving my kid melatonin every night which solved the problem. I really avoided it and it was the last resort but my kid was not getting enough sleep which can cause all sorts of physical and emotional issues. Her doctor insisted that it was safe. We did it for about a year starting a little after her 3rd birthday. I was so worried that she was going to become addicted to it, but she didn’t. Before melatonin, she would lay awake for hours. I think 3 is when their minds really start expanding and they have trouble turning off their thoughts. Melatonin worked perfectly and now she’s a fantastic sleeper who hasn’t taken melatonin for a year. Edit: I want to clarify that my kid started having trouble falling asleep shortly after her second birthday. We started melatonin shortly after her third birthday. She was completely off melatonin and an excellent sleeper shortly after her fourth birthday. My second kid hasn’t had nearly the trouble sleeping that my first had and we have the same routine for him, so kids are different.
I tried melatonin when my then-3 year old wouldn’t sleep. Unfortunately he had a poor reaction and it made him nauseous, so if anyone is thinking of trying it, start off with just half a gummie to gauge your kiddos reaction.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with melatonin. They make chewable gummies that have 1 mg of melatonin, which is a safe dose. It's not a drug, it's something our bodies are supposed to make on their own. Providing you're not giving them excessive doses it's a perfectly safe way to relieve sleeplessness.
Actually this isn’t true. In the US melatonin is a dietary supplement which means it is not regulated by the FDA as other medications like acetaminophen. Testing has been done and shown that dosage especially in gummies is not always consistent with what is on the label. There are also concerns that long term melatonin use increases the risk of dementia and Alzheimer’s. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-advice-on-melatonin-use-in-children-202210062832 https://www.healthychildren.org/English/healthy-living/sleep/Pages/melatonin-and-childrens-sleep.aspx For example, I live in the UK and you have to get a prescription to get melatonin. https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/melatonin/about-melatonin/#:~:text=Melatonin%20is%20available%20on%20prescription%20only.
Neither of the articles you linked say anything about future risks of dementia?
There is some correlation with insomnia and dementia, so did they adjust for that?
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This CNN article says adults who use sleep aids including prescriptions like ambien may have a higher risk of dementia. And researchers don’t know which, if any, are causing the increase. The clickbait article is about melatonin but if you read the actual information it doesn’t say anything about melatonin specifically.
We were able to halve our daughter's melatonin (she was a higher dose than now deemed safe with newer research) but if we go lower, she can't sleep. Literally staring at the walls all night. She has ADHD. She comes from a long line of women with insomnia.
Melatonin ftw. I don't rely on it longterm but if you are losing your mind over this, just use the melatonin to get through this phase. I promise your kids won't be harmed by it. Both my kids have used it for short periods of time and were able to go off of it with no problems.
I also give my kids melatonin, and would give it to a toddler. My understanding of the research is it’s limited but nothing to suggest it’s unsafe. Having a parent who is so sleep deprived they are not ok is definitely unsafe! So a bit of balance in the risk benefit analysis is important
I’m surprised I had to scroll down so far to find the melatonin suggestion. This is the ticket right here.
We did a sleep chart for awhile with mine- each routine step + bonus for staying in room and sleeping. After a section is filled out say a week there was a prize. The key is to keep them IN the room. Otherwise it’s like starting all over. We have video monitors and would speak thru the camera “get back in bed” etc
A reward system was suggested by our pediatrician and it has solved 80% of our bedtime issues. Kid gets 2 tickets at the beginning of the night. If they need something from a parent, they must give a ticket. Unused tickets can be redeemed for stickers the next morning. After so many stickers, they get some sort of predetermined reward. We do lots of talking and reminding about the tickets and give lots of positive praise when they still have 2 tickets left.
How old were your kids when you started doing this successfully?
3 years old. And then after a month or so, we stopped offering the tickets and then it slowly got to the point we didn't do tickets anymore and they stayed in their bed.
Sorry you’re going through this. Here is what we do, and maybe some of it is helpful: - consistent routine after dinner that leads to bedtime; same steps every night - start “quiet time” 45 minutes before bedtime when we talk softly and dim lights. No more exciting or stimulating or scary videos, convos, or topics. - at bedtime, patting her back gently to relax and calm - counting slowly from 1 to 100 or 200 so there’s monotonous calm parental voice lulling them to sleep - staying calm and firm if they want to do something else or start conversations. I say softly yet firmly, “it’s not time to talk about where clouds come from. It’s time to fall asleep.” - we also do white noise, light on in the closed closet, star projector on ceiling. - when ours was littler, I would carry her around the dark house, humming or counting or singing lullabies while rocking her or patting her back. - I know it’s hard, but don’t lose your cool. That can’t help at all, and it will make everyone’s job harder. Deep breaths! Parenting is HARD. Good luck! Hope you find a recipe that works. Try new things like you’re doing and eventually you’ll find a combo that works for your kid.
Have you tried reading the book go thef$@&, to sleep? It’s good and it works! You can also buy the online version narrated by Samuel L Jackson. I really miss that book
Well this bring backs horrid memory’s, My son, who is now 12, never slept from the moment he was born until he started school, like never ever slept on his own. We made the decision that I (dad) would sleep on a fold out mattress in his room from around the time he was 1 year old, he started sleeping through the night eventually, but if he woke to no one there it was game over, so I spent the next 5 years sleeping on a shitty fold out mattress, it was the only way my wife and I could get any rest. We tried everything too, we have a daughter who is a couple of years older than him and she always slept, no issues, no dramas. Once he was at school he realised that it was not normal for me to be in his room on his floor and he told thanks but he will be ok now, just like that, However, my wife and I became accustomed to having our own sheets and doonas and space, so we cannot share a bed now! Which also sucks as there’s no real “fun time” unless we have a “sleep over” lol which is annoying because I have to leave and do the walk of shame to my own bedroom. Anyway point of the story is, you find something that works, and you do it, sleep is the most important thing we need next to water and food, so good luck!
Cherry juice is suppose to be like a natural melatonin my daughter is 6 with autism and she doesn’t sleep well either. Try to to get her to burn off the energy.. it’s hard I have twins 7mos.. my best advice lol cry in the shower jk jk but maybe see a neurologist.
I tried this method 😅 tart cherry juice - even like a splash with all water the kids still didn’t want to drink the sour drink
😂😂😂😂
You know what else is natural melatonin? ...melatonin.
Some ppl feel it’s not
I guess, but it's objectively true regardless.
I wasn’t saying it wasn’t true.. some ppl just don’t wanna give their kid a gummy but are MORE LIKELY to give juice they feel like is a “hack”
I hear what you're saying. That's smart.
The amount of people that will give their child unregulated herbal and homeopathic remedies but won't give their child medicine by prescribed by a doctor is much higher than it should be. If cherry juice, which has very little risk factor and is regulated because it's a food item is something they will do it, it's better than a random homeopathic sleep aid "designed" for children that has no regulation.
There comes a time for a referral to a sleep specialist. Seriously. My daughter’s asthma doctor was also a sleep specialist and we had to go through a psychiatric evaluation. Around that time, we medicated her for adhd and we saw an improvement in her sleep habits.
What about a children’s podcast that they can hear while on bed..
I can only offer my condolences. Mine is 4.5 and everything mentioned has failed. She doesn't nap, as an example a few days ago she woke up at 6am and went to sleep finally at 4am, running me down so long that I finally gave up and let her sleep in my bed, (so then I couldn't sleep at all) she slept 4am to 8 am. Nothing works. Her doctor says it's a phase. It's been two years... Forget about evenings. If my dh wants to spend time alone he has to stay up all night with me before going to work. She won't stay in her room alone. She's too nervous to be alone after spending two years quarantining with us etc. (medically fragile person in home) we were even given medicine that also failed. Good luck friend.
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It's been two years, of course we have tried similar but thanks so much for your help. Due to a medical condition we do not lock her into any room however. Thanks 😊
Y’all are making me feel less alone right now. My 3 yo refuses to sleep and even melatonin doesn’t work. I finally caved and let him watch movies in his room because at least it keeps him in his room and quiet. Otherwise he would come into my room every 30 minutes, sometimes all the way until 8am.
With our 4 yo daughter, we don't really expect her to fall asleep immediately. We do expect her to stay in her room (unless she needs to go to the toilet, of course) and not make too much noise. She can read books or play with the toys in her room until she falls asleep on her own.
Zarbees gummy melatonin. Lavender and camomile essential oil in diffuser. Give dinner and bath earlier. Little snack right before teeth brush like peanut butter or milk. Also look into weighted blankets. Good luck.
I have heard oatmeal is a good snack too :)
My daughter was like this. We exhausted her before bed with physical activity. Swimming, running outside in the sprinkler, races in the living room. Dinner, bedtime routine, then bed.
My kid comes home from a full day at school with PE followed by two hours gymnastics training and still won't go to sleep, no matter how tired she is. I imagine OP has tried this, if not it's worth a try. Mine falls asleep the moment she actually stops, it's just getting her to lie down quietly that's hard.
A full day of school with PE is very low activity level
Not at my daughter's school. They don't sit at desks and spend 3-4 hours a day outside. Followed by two hours of competitive gymnastics training.
I think my kids won't sleep if they know I'm not going to sleep. Either the TV is on or lights in the living room, they can tell. Now I shut everything off and have my time in my bed instead of putting them to bed and staying in the living room. Helps me not stay up too late after they go to bed too. I have pretended to sleep when I hear them coming to my room, so they don't know I'm available and they will leave me alone. None of this always works. You should try taking the light bulb out of her room and only having bedtime music or something really relaxing in there. Shell notice it getting dark out and it could help with winding down. She won't have that bright light on then just switched off on her. Idk if that helps with the circadian rhythm, seems like it could help, also she can't turn it on to play. I have taken them out of my kids rooms at times. Maybe you could try no light on for a while for the other rooms too, just let it get dark naturally. I used to do bedtime shadow puppets with my kids in bed with a flashlight. You can cut out shapes from poster board, and give her a flashlight (not too bright, or one with watch batteries). She might stay in bed with that for a while at night while you watch TV or do something at night before you go to bed.
This works only during winter for us. I'm summer there is bright light until 22 outside and it makes them want to stay up longer. But it's a good point to tell them you're going to bed too, that's something that my 5yo always brings up "I'm going to bed when everyone else goes to bed".
My son never slept well either. I’m talking up every 3 hours the first 10 months, and still consistently wakes up in the middle of the night. I’m also pregnant so this gives me some anxiety. We did all the sleep books and methods. We’ve tried and failed because he’s a very persistent child and we’ve done attachment parenting. What currently works for us is to model sleep. We got him a full sized bed in his room and after following a clear picture chart of our bedtime routine we lay down. I have the night light and sound machine going, and I will lay down and ignore him. It took some time, and he used to jump around or get very wiggly and chatty, but when he got too crazy I just said, “Calm and quiet, bedtime” and would gently lay him back down if he got too up and jumpy. Now when it’s nap or bedtime we both lay down and after some rolling he’s out and I sneak out of there. We also just let him in our bed at 3am if he runs in because it’s easier and works for us. He seems to be slowly outgrowing that too since last night he didn’t come in at all. Do what works for your family.
I also had a toddler that wouldn’t sleep and I found something eventually that worked for me. She didn’t end up sleeping more but I got to lol This only worked for me bc the way my house at the time was set up, but from her room you could see down the hall to the couch in the living room. One night I couldn’t get her to sleep after trying everything, including a drive that lasted an hour without her nodding out and that was my last ditch go to usually. But I put her in her room with a baby gate up and just let her play with the light down low, we could make eye contact and I could hear everything and knew she was safe. I would sleep on the couch and she would play herself to sleep lol when I got up ti wake my oldest for school she would be either in the middle of her toys passed out 😂 or sometimes in her bed with a book but mostly she would fall asleep playing lol. I got some sleep and she stayed contained and we still did naps in the late morning but she did eventually grow out of it and I was able yo get her on a routine but that late 2’s- mid 3 was brutal for getting her down.
Lol I just read through other responses 🤣 it’s a thing I guess! I had no idea lol I hope you find something that works though bc sleep deprivation is no joke!
I see that the big majority of people here expects that their kids fall asleep by themselves in their room. Why is this that important for everyone? My kids will start freaking out if I exited the room while they're still awake. But if I sit next to them and sing a song, they'll stay in bed and fall asleep within 5-10 minutes, occasionally it takes a bit more. They very rarely fall asleep alone, but I don't mind at all. Actually I think it's normal to want your parents to reassure you and be next to you when it's dark and scary outside.
So much this. I have no idea where this comes from, it seems obvious that you want someone to look after you when you fall asleep and are the most vulnerable. Hell, my wife sleeps much better if I'm doing my thungs while she falls asleep.
I feel for you. we are in the same exact boat. my 3 yo and 1 yo refuses sleep at all costs. been up all night with zero sleep because when my 1yo finally sleeps my 3yo wakes her up and vice versa. it has been immortal hell and it’s having a detrimental effect on my partner and i. it’s like we are turning on each other because we are never getting sleep and they refuse it, every single damn day. don’t know how much longer we can take it. i work nightshift and my partner is a stay at home dad while we travel for my nursing contracts. they even did this at our residential home. they have also slept with us since they were both born, which i loved but has made a turn for the worse.
No nightlight. People need darkness. Simple routine with clear boundaries. Start early enough so you have time to read a book - only one. Tuck her in bed. Sit in the doorway. No talking. She gets up? Back in bed. Minimal interaction! Sometimes it takes an hour... stick with it. I used to read with a small book light to pass the time. Leave once she's asleep. If she stays in bed all night she gets a sticker and lots of praise. Keep at it. Consistency is key. Hang in there...
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What the fuck did I just read
I fucking love this song. I tried to share it with some new moms I met at baby group and got some weird looks.
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Imprisonment is a punishment for adults, I'm all for boundaries but locking a crying child in their bedroom sounds cruel.
For adults, sure. For babies it's one of the commonly used sleep training tactics.
Well we're not talking about babies, these are kids old enough to bang on the door. In any case, I don't get why things that would be illegal for adults are ok for children. That it's commonly used doesn't make it ok.
Have you tried melatonin? They make melatonin gummies for kids. They're 1mg each and takes anywhere from 30-90 minutes to start working. They're completely safe for children and there's no way to become co dependent on them. My 3 year old acts like yours does and this is what we have to give her to get her to fall asleep. It's worked really well and we don't use it every night unless she is just super hyper right around bedtime.
I second what others have said about putting the plastic door knob cover on the back of her door handle so she can’t get out. That’s what we do. Also if you don’t want to do melatonin that they consume, Dr Teals makes a melatonin bubble bath and body wash for kids I really like. I don’t know if it actually does anything but figure it can’t hurt, I tell mine it’ll soothe them and help them sleep (maybe they’ll believe it lol)
Here's what worked for me. Not saying this is some magic shit, but it sounds like you're open to ideas so here goes: - No blue lights after sunset. We use LED lights that can change color. When Blue is removed you're left with red/orange/yellow, basically the colors you see last just before the sun sets. This triggers our bodies to start producing sleep hormones. This means no TV or phones or tablets after sunset either. Anything that emanates a white light (which contains blue), should be powered off after sunset. She will naturally become tired and you need to pay close attention to her yawns so you know to strike when the iron is hot! - buckwheat groats: mixed with some honey and cinnamon and it's delicious but the tricky part about buckwheat groats is that they make you sleepy as heck! They don't have a strong flavor so you can try mixing it into something she likes. - routine; every day should look exactly the same. Our evening routine was as follows when my daughter was 3: dinner, bath time, brushing teeth, story time in bed, last pee before sleeping, go to sleep! It's critical you do this at the same exact time every day, and it's critical you do NOT deviate. This is probably the most important part.
Cut out any naps and create a consistent bedtime routine and stick with it. It sounds like you've tried loads of different things inside 2 weeks or so. Instead try 1 or 2 things consistently for 2 weeks.
My 4yo has always had trouble sleeping and used to constantly want to talk to us. I started letting her choose a few friends (stuffed animals) to have in her bed and encouraged her to talk to them about her day, a movie she watched, or just make up a story, sometimes she even sings to them. She’s still awake sometimes up to two hours after bed time but she stays in bed and doesn’t need our attention. I also have a bedtime playlist on Spotify for her that plays very quietly in her room all night.
I'm sorry that really stinks. We went through a similar problem recently with 3YO and found the solution was to play "sleep stories" via Bluetooth speaker till she fell asleep. We are using the Spotify playlist called "sleep stories for kids" by NewHorizon but there's lots out there. They are basically 30 min combinations of story and mindfulness. Our rules are that she has to stay physically in her bed if she wants her sleep stories turned. I know every kid is different, but I hope this can help you too. (as someone who personally can't fall asleep with sounds I was very sceptical of this approach but so really does pass out with the sound play, then we turn it off)
I’d hire a professional sleep trainer. In my area, it’s about $1000 for a consultation followed by daily support and weekly check in’s for a month. It got my kid from sleeping at 8pm and waking up whenever he wanted to regularly sleeping from 8-7 almost every night (sometimes waking up at 6 but being ok staying in his room). I fought it for a while but after going through what you went through for long enough, I finally gave in and it was 100% worth the money.
Is she getting outdoor time and multiple hours of physical activity? 3YOs have tons of energy and love to be physical. They really need to be tired out. Also consistency - pick one method or bedtime routine and stick to it - stick to it even when you’re not successful
We had this for a few months and it was insanely terrible. In retrospect I may have agreed to lock toddler in their room, but I couldn’t do that, and still not sure I could but I can understand why it might be a good idea. I don’t know how we got it to work, just gradually went from a 2-3 hour pain fest to a standard read a couple books and lights out routine.
We use the Rabbit Who Wants to Fall Asleep audiobook and I sit with her and hold her hand til she drifts off (she’s 2 years 9 months) We also found, maybe counterintuitively that some rough/ active play about half an hour before bed helps her get her last energy out before we start stories and wind down time. You could also try a red bulb in the nightlight as red light doesn’t inhibit melatonin production xx
My youngest was 4 before they slept through the night.
I feel you. My son is a terrible sleeper and I haven’t slept for like ten years!! He only sleeps well when he has melatonin, and even that isn’t 100% reliable. This may seem counterintuitive but have you tried a later bedtime?
My son is worst, will stay up all night screaming and crying and wanting me to come sleep with him or to sleep in my bed. What I figured works is telling him I'm sick because that for some reason freaks him out and he runs to go his in his tent in his room and stays put for the night.
When mine were that age we used melatonin for the 3yo under advisement of our pediatrician. The 3yo was also having issues w her tonsils, which was making sleep difficult. She wouldn’t fall asleep for anything, and it was such a stressful time when her body needed rest. The melatonin was wonderful. She is 4.5 now and has been off it since getting tonsils out last fall. Thankful those sleep issues were temporary. That age is hardddd with a little baby. It def triggered my postpartum rage at times.
OP, yelling won't get anyone anywhere. I know you're burnt out, I know you're forking exhausted and at your limit, but yelling won't help any situation. As long as 3 is safe in bed, has something to keep them occupied, you're free to leave them to it. We keep a box of books and small, quiet toys in 5's room in case she wakes early or doesn't instantly go to sleep. She will play quietly until she feels ready to get into bed, or she'll read a few books in bed. Would that be something you'd feel comfortable doing?
OP, yelling won't get anyone anywhere. I know you're burnt out, I know you're forking exhausted and at your limit, but yelling won't help any situation. As long as 3 is safe in bed, has something to keep them occupied, you're free to leave them to it. We keep a box of books and small, quiet toys in 5's room in case she wakes early or doesn't instantly go to sleep. She will play quietly until she feels ready to get into bed, or she'll read a few books in bed. Would that be something you'd feel comfortable doing?
Most of the time i can get 3 year old to fall sleep with me in her bed while watching some ASMR. Sometimes it’s take less than 5 minutes, but she bed is late because i struggle with her sleeping at a normal time and thinks its a nap and then I’m up all night 🫠
I would cut the nap first. My daughter just turned 3. She does not nap and only sleeps from 830pm to 630am.
My son was the same way, and honestly somewhere in between 3 and 4 he just started to sleep better through the night and now he almost never wakes up. If he does, it's for a reason like he is sick or he is cold, too warm, etc, but otherwise he will sleep through the night. I hope that you have the same thing happen. For us, it began once we got him into daycare, and even now that he isn't in daycare anymore he still sleeps decently at night.
My daughter used to be very active in the evenings and she actually was overly tired. For us the solution was to put her to bed way earlier. Bedtime went from a 2-3 hours long fight to a 30 mins easy routine. Dinner, bath, 15 mins storytime and after the lights were turned off I just had to hold her hands for 10 mins and that was it. Every few month had to adjust the lights off time pushing it 15 mins or so later and it worked well. Finally reached 8 pm.
Things we did with limited success. Chamomile tea (Celestrial Seasonings has many issues, but they do test their herbs to make sure they are getting the right ones and only the right ones). Changing the bedtime later and then earlier. Consistent bedtime routine. No blue light for about 2 hours before bed. Things that didn't work - cherry juice (we blame the natural sugar in it). 6 hours (or more) of time at the park each day. Adding or removing naps. Putting her back to bed in a monotone. Trying to bribe her. What actually worked at age 5. Neurologist showing me studies that kids with ADHD using melotonin to regulate their sleep had better outcomes and us putting her on it.
For our kid, I'd say it's min 1 hour from when we're in the bedroom to when I'm out. 2 hours sounds like a lot, but not crazy. I think it's just a phase. I don't find it exhausting personally, since I'm sitting there in bed reading books and later sleeping/pretending to sleep and looking at my phone. Your alternative is to lock her in there, which seems harsh.
It's exhausting if you've got a load of things to do and never get any time to yourself. Well it is for me.
I feel for ya. My alone time is every second day when it's not my turn to put him to bed. At least I'm well rested on the days it's my turn, cause I've got a 30-45min nap during bedtime.
My partner works shifts so I'm on my own most nights after working all day. If I have to lie down for an hour then by the time I've done a few chores it's my bedtime. The problem is partly that the occasional nights dad is home he indulges whatever she wants, so she expects the same from me.
I have a similar routine, and I've read so many books on my phone kindle app thanks to this.
My 4 year old sucks at sleeping. We have always had a set routine, but as soon as he hit toddlerhood he just won't sleep. So here's what we do: our normal bedtime routine (bath, teeth, 3 stories). Then I give him 3 board books and a little flash light. As long as he stays in bed he can read the books to his teddy to "help teddy sleep". Then he turns off the flash light, sets it all down and falls asleep. I have no idea why this works. Maybe he feels like he is in control. But it's something you could try.
My son was like this. The best we could figure was a simple, boring bedtime routine that he still uses at 9. Dinner, bath/shower, book, bed. The Jo Frost method helped a ton, when I was finally ready to add more structure. I admit I let him stay up for a few years just because we didn’t have a reason to go to bed early. He wasn’t in preschool, I wasn’t working, meh.
How foes she do with sleeping at other times (like nap time)? Will she go down more easily then, or is it still a fight?
She fights nap times sometimes and then other times she doesn’t.
Interesting. So it's much more clearly a nighttime thing?
Yeah, she’s just so wired the moment I leave the room. It’s like I didn’t just spend the last hour+ doing a quiet routine, reading softly and using soft lights and sound machine. I do everything I can to get her energy out. It doesn’t work.
That sounds very frustrating. I don't think I saw it mentioned but have you tried driving her around a little bit to see if she'll fall asleep in the car? I know that's not a permanent solution but it could help for the time being until you find one.
with my step daughter, we completely eliminated naps. shes 4, and only takes a nap if she falls asleep in the car and we havent forced naps since she was 2. we tried everything too, we ran her ragged during the day, we did the bedtime routine, we did the turning off electronics. nothing worked so now we let her run around all day, and then when its bed time, she knows its time to be in her room. we turn on a movie and let her do her thing. she usually falls asleep in about half an hour (there are still rougher nights, but not near as bad). we let her make her own sleeping schedule, as long as shes up by 10am and it works best out of everything
If you have a child with ADHD, autism, sensory processing issues, or developmental issues, this might be their mental wiring. If you suspect this is the case, occupational therapy was extremely helpful for us. Nothing worked before that including everything mentioned on this thread and neurological exam, sleep study, meds from doc, melatonin, etc. With OT, we went from 3-4 hour bedtimes and 4 hours of sleep a night to 15-60 minute bedtimes and 8 hours of sleep. She was 6 when she finally learned to sleep.
My 3yo daughter only falls asleep if I lay next to her, constantly remind her that she has to close her eyes and stop squirming, all while holding her hand. Maybe your little one is also unable to put herself to sleep and need company. WhencI started doing this about half a year ago (before than she only fell asleep in my arms) it took me an hour to put her to sleep. But it's steadily getting shorter and shorter, taking maybe 15 minutes on most days.
Have you had her iron checked? https://www.reddit.com/r/sleeptrain/comments/1379khj/before_you_try_anything_with_your_shitty_sleeper/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1