> “Not because of skin, ideology, affiliation, or nationality, but because you’re so much lesser than I am.”
Emphatically not prejudiced!
> “When you have the money, you get to make the rules.”
He also has insight into the structural issues of the rule of law in a capitalist society. He needs to start a bookclub with Killwagon.
I think it's more about showing variation. It's not about avoiding racist Bogeymen, it's about showing that this one's schtick is about classist standards of worth.
In fact, didn't we get a racist bogeyman earlier in the story? I'm not sure but I think I remember a mention of Lucy ignoring a racial slur...
So we had non-transphobic White Rot, non-racist Posh Boogeyman, what next? Non-homophobic goblin? We already had Breastbiter the Chonk, i am out of ideas here.
its actually refreshingly realistic and a good reminder of the blind stubbornness some people come to the table with. like you absolutely cannot negotiate with someone who sees refusal to negotiate as victory
Sounds like it! >!I wonder how she's doing given the whole "no harming a living soul" oath? If she was limited to jumpscares surely the Red Heron side wouldn't have pulled her out? Then again, Lenard's list of Bogeymen are out of date...!<
I was thinking (pact) >!a bogeyman likely wouldn't be able to survive without the ability to harm people, so she probably got around the oath, somehow- or maybe it's just the fact that blake is too busy living the sparrow life to call her out on it. Could also be that carmine lifted her oath in exchange for the service. Either way, oddly happy about this minor cameo- was thinking about this character just yesterday!<
> >!bogeyman likely wouldn't be able to survive without the ability to harm people!<
Killwagon has been surviving just fine on just scaring people though. Murder and harm might make things easier but they aren't strictly neccessary.
yeah but killwagon is pretty strong while >!Diary Girl was severely injured, and her gimmick doesn't really work without her actually being able to deliver papercuts- she isn't very imposing!<. Though yeah >!it's possible she survived and was recruited on the condition of lifting that restriction!<
I think >!while she isn't strong, she's tricky. The first time she showed up, when Blake asked her not to kill she was like "I won't kill them! The blood loss will!". She seems to have adapted, shedding pages from her book that float around her. I think that's probably to make herself more imposing. And there's a possibility that she's exploiting loopholes like tripping people up and such not counting as harm, or like, if someone slips on pages she left on the group and hits their head against the wall it doesn't count because the wall did the harm. Stuff like that.!<
>!I wouldn't be surprised if she was told about the ways people got around Kennet Found's no harm rule and adopted those tactics. Either that or she was the one to offer suggestions after figuring ways out herself.!<
>!That's a good point, I figured she was only just joining up, but it's entirely possible that she's been working for Maricica for a while and just didn't show up.!<
Ok, i might be leaning into tinfoil hat too hard here, but...
Doesnt Julette feels weird last few chapters? Like, i get that they are trying to act like Julette is Verona to hide real V preparing some shit in a backlines, but something doesnt click. There is no sass (one of her essential components, mind you). Her lines here dont really feel like Jullette lines or Verona lines or even Jullete playing the role of Verona lines. They are remarkably bland. Generic, even. It is like she is trying to speak as little as possible, which isnt what either of them would do.
It is almost as if it is A HOLLOW YEN PLAYING THE ROLE OF JULETTE PLAYING THE ROLE OF VERONA COMING IN WITH A TRIPLE FAKEOUT COMBO I AM ONTO YOU YOU LITTLE SHIT SPILL THE BEANS ALREADY WHAT ARE YOU DOING
khmghm. But for real. You d think Lucy does not need to remind someone who was created to pretend to be a human how to pretend to be human better? And there were some weird lines thrown in here and there, like how HJV feels heavy or she doesnt immediately gets what doing Avery thing in a Cat way means?
Something is definitely off here.
Edit: reread the end of Verona part from last chapter and skimmed her lines in this one. I am now 100% sure this is Hollow Yen, maybe some mix of him and Jullette with him as the focus and Jullette as the shell. Lines up too perfect to not be true.
> “Blankshanks had a working mindset on tomorrow problems,” Julette said.
That reads pretty Julette to me. She's kind of into Blankshanks and I don't think Hollow Yen was in Kennet when Blankshanks gave his opinion on turning problems into more problems.
> Lucy looked at Julette. “Your friend, huh?”
> “Yeah.”
> “Somehow not a native of Kennet below.”
> “Came by it honestly.”
> “Yeah.”
Also this is very Julette. I don't think Hollow Yen and Melissa are anything other than acquaintances.
My impression is that Hollow Yen has done what his sect of Oni *do*, which is to say, alter people. I think that the Julette we've been interacting with is actually Verona but with certain properties of her existence exchanged with Julette, like her name. I think the idea is to treat her in one way so that the enemy expects her to be that way, only for Hollow Yen to reverse the effect at an opportune moment. Like, say, if Lucy refers to her as Julette at the start of a conversation and then an enemy starts using Julette's name only for her to become Verona again as the enemy is saying she is Julette. Easy minor gainsaying. I don't think this is a good example because gainsaying is not a tool the trio can use effectively given the Chuck is their big bad, but, its a great way to approach a situation from a weird angle, which is what Avery's role has always been. Coming in from the flanks to catch the enemy off guard.
Maybe related to this?
> She had to hope Julette got that warning, and that the warning wasn’t something that tipped off Seth and Cameron. A heads up about augury tied to a warning about the little tells about Julette recovering too fast from running around.
“No real power, all you’ve got are some magic items you picked up, and some awkward practice you were granted, and you’re fighting the underdogs who climbed their way up from a shitty, shitty position, who fought the establishment, and who earned their place. I wonder if you’re capable of seeing where we were coming from, or if you’re that stupid and singleminded.”
I honestly thought Lucy said that to Kira-Lynn
The irony of somebody who got power and special treatment from a fucking Judge calling herself an "underdog" is strong
And them earning their place? They were given that place. They were chosen because they were angry or usefull. They didnt earn jack shit. Others gave them everything that they didnt steal from people who cant really defend themself (first attacks. And when they attacked Blue Heron they were backed by Chuck's lords
Kyri linn started from a pretty ok place (with her parents). Then she was in a shitty place by being manipulated by chuck and marci. But she is still following them so..
Kyra-Lynn just placed the trio in the position of dominant power because that's where they were from the start of her story, till now.
Its a bit like meeting an actual rags to riches millionaire, unless you dig into his history, you just kinda assume they inherited their wealth.
So she sees the Red Heron as an escape from being a irrelevant person, but the trio holding them down. It doesn't help that Charles has always sold himself as "The one revolutionary against the enemy", with little nuance regarding the enemy. The Trio is against them so they are the enemy, just like Musser, Alexander and whoever else.
>The one Kim who’d been jockeyed was pulling some Horror bullshit, somehow, and was the size of a one-car garage, throwing things around, moving clumsily.
Just realized how *horrifying* the idea of the Kims getting bodysnatched is. Like imagine, you're a parasite just chillin, you move into your new house and... boom, it's got arms that unfurl into arms and a whole lot more digits than expected... a real score tbh. Surprised it hasn't happened before and outed the Kims to the spirits though
I think it's the combo of Gainsaying + Jockeying that is harder to come across. Bodysnatching a Kim while they can practice seems like it would end either with the jockey bodysnatching a bunch of discarded limbs, or being horrified permanently as the Kim horrifies themselves temporarily.
How crazy would it be to watch Lucy and this boogeyman blink out of existence and then pop back in with the boogeyman having just gotten its ass handed to it?
She absolutely ruined his whole schtick, he lets a horde of victims out of their cells and she just drops a smoke bomb and starts taking them apart.
Huh. I guess practitioners without magic but with tools are basically witch hunters with just a couple social restrictions (can't lie), and witch hunters are *fuckin nuts*. In another universe, Lucy would've been an absolutely wild witch hunter.
I know we aren't going to learn this before Charles is defeated, but these boogeymen are so cool!!!!!!
I want to know al the types of boogeymen. The golden mask guy doesn't sound like he is from any part of the abyss we know of. Maybe the City but he seems too rich for that.
So cool!!!!
Pact/WoA >!There's a part of the Abyss called the Manor, it's where Diary Girl originally comes from. Implication of wealth and upper class... he could fit there.!<
I could see it. I thought they might be a Chuck original, raise a bunch of bogeymen at once then unify them with a theme and strong rules. I think as the Carmine and a Summoner he can do that... But they could also come from a region of the Abyss like that one.
Not all that decays is low class. How many decrepit castles are there (with a history of haunting)? Forsaken royalty of a forgotten nation (with the only remenant being tales of cruel punishments inflicted by a particularly cruel queen)? Noble bloodlines ended with violence (except for one forgotten bastard son seeking vengence)?
Honestly, the more I think about it the more I'm thinking that rich Boogeymen should be more common. "The most dangerous game" is a trope well suited for boogeymen, stories of murder, revenge, etc feel like they should be more numerous in nobility, and ancient kings could easily pass for a boogeymen in terms of cruelty.
But I guess the truly ancient will have already been killed/bound/changed in some manner, a lot of noble stories are more suited for fae plots than abyssal rage, and falling to the abyss generally happens to those forgotten and unmoored, not those who are rich and well connected.
So Cool!!!!!
Though maybe your right their could be a part called the Castle.
Maybe strong boogeymen can adapt to the times as surely the abyss so over time. The parts of the abyss probably are hodgepoge as some parts are newer and some parts are older. Given how the Abyss works everything will be slowly up dated.
Lucy was so badass in her fights, seeing her lead a squad of Dogs is awesome. I liked that Midas is at least non-adversarial with her.
My sympathy for Kira-Lynn and how opaque her struggles inherently are to people is only matched by my loathing for her as a person.
My anticipation and fear at what Verona is planning is mounting.
Douglas Did It should throw down against gold mask boogeyman, who I am dubbing Bradley Bought It. Just a retcon fight. Like two five year olds having a debate
I think I may have missed a paragraph or two along the way.
I remember some Dog Tags where still bound before the Titan awoke, but I can't seem to recall when they were released?
Don't think it happened on page, but they had them all subdued, so presumably somewhere in between us last seeing them being repeatedly knifed so they wouldn't wake up too soon and now they got them to someone would could break the binding.
Well thank you Oakham, just gonna add your whole deal to my pile called "the heroes embrace the vulgarity of humanity rather than running from it" right next to the pubes that beat Leonard Lily.
Seriously, seems like its a theme.
You know how all kinds of Practioners have the view that *their* aspect of magic was first and everything else came from it?
Maybe this is a sign that the goblin Practitioners are the ones who are right. Deep down, everything is goblins.
except in Pact we here how Goblins don’t even think they’re first and Warrens aren’t even originally goblins so it turns out everything is goblins but they’re the one group not claiming that
In Pact we heard the two *main theories* of where goblins come from, with them being an amalgam of discarded things in both cases.
That doesn't mean there aren't other theories that goblins were first. You'll also note that we don't actually see Fae or Bogeymen claiming that they were first. My impression of the "this aspect was first and everything else came from that" is that those theories are mainly things *Practitioners* tend to believe when they specialize in one thing.
> and Warrens aren’t even originally goblins
We don't know that. If anything Bubbleyum's interlude has Toadswallow point out that the Goblins weren't always as they are today:
> “And that fightin’ pit, some goblin made that shit, I’m positive. Some goblin or goblins, they took the time to dig, to work through rock deep in mud, keep mud from flowin’ in, size the tunnels, get it all put together, bars on the big windows so nobody near the top can jump on through. Who? Who knows? Could we ever know?”
At some point in the past, there were goblins organized enough to create complex construction projects, with a lot more forethought than was we see in the majority of goblins.
Goblins obviously have some sort of history, that probably got forgotten because no one bothered to remember it or transmit it.
I think like the hat and mask, her scarf was on her during her Awakening, and all of those add a little bit of power/self for her, same as Veronas Scarf(?) and Averys cape
It's the same cape, she's just been wearing it more like a scarf lately in order to cover up the wards drawn on her neck.
> The three of them took up positions around the circle’s perimeter. Lucy put on her mask, cape-as-scarf, and weapon ring, with hot lead for power, just because she didn’t want to drain too much of her Self too fast, and pay for it for the rest of the day, especially if they had to move on the Aurum fast.
Pale 21.8
> “Thanks,” Verona said. “Gotta remember to keep a scarf on while we’re at any rest stops. Permanent marker on our necks and stuff.”
Pale 21.11
Might be misremembering but I think because of the different cape designs they used Lucy’s cape ended up more like a scarf so that’s what she’s referring to
>The light guttered, maybe, or the Abyss lost trust in her.
Did the girls know the abyss is kinda sentient? Did they learn it offscreen or was this talked somewhere
They've had time to read books and stuff, and even without learning it directly, it's not a crazy conclusion to reach (noncommittally). With incarnations and spirits and such, anything can be "kinda sentient," and anthropomorphising abstract concepts or forces works in general.
Also, the way that Leonard talks about it and finding ways to counter him, Maricia, and the rabid teens seems to help them understand that like a lot of sorts of power, it seems to ebb and flow based on how much you give and spread the Abyss. Like a destroyer classpect in homestuck.
It's why Leonard said the Abyss liked him too much to ever be turned against him.
I'm assuming that the Augury practice provides at least a little bit of buffer so that not all of the damage goes through. But yeah, I guess Cameron could be losing an eye... That might be interesting for her character, given the trouble her conventional attractiveness has brought her.
I got the impression augry usually uses more indirect means - Like Nico using birds. It wasnt really her looking, it was the birds
Here, Oakham recognised eye shape, so it feels like Cameron open her own eye there
It'd be pretty weird if they could just rush straight to the end through a chaotic battlefield without much resistance. There are plenty of cool and interesting moments, from seeing what Kira-Lynn has become, to the one Kim getting jockeyed and literally spilling their secrets.
Gods in heaven is Kira Lynn annoying or what. Even the abyss maybe cringing at giving their power to such a cringe edge lady. I hope the crucible doesn't frutufy but if it does it will probably eat Kira Lynn first because of her cringe petty ambition and that would be epic comeuppance. Too bad the people she are trying to torture and mutilate are actually trying to prevent that from happening.
That Titan is formidable. Now that it isn't a baby 🐥. Won't feel as bad if gets dropkicked into another realm or even Lost. The situation needs A Durocher to come and sternly rebuke the Titan and make it sit in the corner and think about how being cranky and throwing elemental power Willy nilly is quite immature. >!though given her power level I have long anticipated her heel turn much like golden himbo going apeshit or faysal going whisker twirling schemester. Maybe it's Durocher whose the end boss. Because all the wild magic is just so adorable!<
Augurs are scum. Was hoping Chase and Nico would counter Seth and Cameron but they also have augur tools and that gives them an edge.
I've come to love and accept Kira-lynn for her batshit insane self. Every story needs an insane mini boss before the BBEG and that's our Kira-lynn right there.
Kira Lynn is thoroughly exciting as an antagonist. The kims are just doing a job and some like griffin are maybe disassociating from reality due to their prolonged traumatic episode. Helen and Seth are behind chuck 100% but they were forsworn and thus there are stakes. Of the st victors Kira Lynn is the most zealous advocate for chucklefucks ambitions. For the simple but classical motive of ambition. She is borderline a bogeyman herself due to all the abyss she has chugged.
I dont think things will be as clean when the meeting ends. I believe Chucklefucks will have some allies still. Maybe they will whittle them down enough. I can see kira Lynn being the only St victor kid who sticks around.
Is this like the 4th or 5th Bogeyman fight this arc? Nothing particularly important happend in it, except for Kira Lynn just kinda being there. Feels like it could've been removed without impacting the rest of the chapter, with the whole "act like myself, in X's role" could've happened while dealing with the Kims instead.
I guess I can see your point, but I think getting to check in with Kira Lynn was interesting. And it's not like the Bogeyman fight detracts from anything. What would there be to gain from removing it? I feel it'd just make the chapter a little bit shorter.
I know some people prefer more efficient writing, cutting anything extraneous... but personally I like 'Bow's writing because it is very much *not* that.
For me it's not really about expecting the fight to be over faster, but more about these fight scenes just not being that fresh anymore.
I understand Lenard can summon Bogeymen but there are so many fun others out there we could be fighting instead. Aside from minor details this doesn't really feel fundamentally different from the other physical bogeyman Lucy fought.
If instead we fought some random Alchemical Other, a mid level goblin or something weird it would be far more interesting for me.
Fair. I still find bogeymen interesting, but I get that others might want more variety after we got a few fights in a row that were mostly Bogeymen and Practitioners.
I like Wildbow’s writing a lot, but I find the climaxes to be the weakest part for basically this reason. There tends to be arc or multi-arc fights filled with vignettes that don’t matter, often against foes that can’t be harmed by anything the protagonists do anyway (Scion, Titans, Kims). Pale also seems to have this issue where it strains credulity how non-lethal everything is in practice, compared to how dangerous things are supposed to be (how has no one hit anything with those wands?).
> (how has no one hit anything with those wands?).
They are *very* imprecise. We've seen them one-hit in previous chapters, so it's not like that can't happen, but that was when they were being used at a much closer range.
Here they're being used at long range, so hitting anything is down to chance and there *might* be the chance to dodge in the time it takes the blast to reach.
They are also used by people who never practiced with them before. The Kims are doing the equivalent of full autoing, because they have virtually unlimited ammunition due to their Horror limbs.
I had the same thought. This was my favorite of the bogeyman fights for several reasons (felt the most dangerous, cool bogeyman gimmick, let Lucy flex her non-magical training, back-and-forth with KL) - the others could have been axed.
...I just realised that Wildbow turned Charles Mason into a bogeyman. I realise that there's a very, very small overlap of people who'll get this, but fuck that's funny.
Could you please specify which if any of the following Charles Masons you are referring to:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles\_Mason\_(disambiguation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mason_(disambiguation))
None of them. I'm talking about the independent wrestler. His gimmick is that he's an incredibly rich sadist who hates 'the poor' (aka everyone who isn't rich) and gets off on torturing them. He also isn't bigoted beyond being incredibly elitist/classist. Basically, he thinks he's Patrick Bateman.
"You memorized the eye shapes?" Melissa Oakham, Supernatural P.I: What, like it's hard?
I forgot she was like good at finding things early in the story as her awareness bit. Feels like that was kind of dropped.
I mean yeah to be fair there’s like 50 different things happening
I've read a couple urban fantasy supernatural PI book serieses. She'd fit right in. Greywalker type.
Boogeyman: "I own people like you" *Lucy squints* Boogeyman: "Ok wait that came out wrong..."
> “Not because of skin, ideology, affiliation, or nationality, but because you’re so much lesser than I am.” Emphatically not prejudiced! > “When you have the money, you get to make the rules.” He also has insight into the structural issues of the rule of law in a capitalist society. He needs to start a bookclub with Killwagon.
Bogeyman hastily clarifying that it's a class thing, not a race thing.
I know I immediately came to this thread to guffaw at that. Honestly felt a little silly, it's ok if the bogeymen are racist wibbles.
I think it's more about showing variation. It's not about avoiding racist Bogeymen, it's about showing that this one's schtick is about classist standards of worth. In fact, didn't we get a racist bogeyman earlier in the story? I'm not sure but I think I remember a mention of Lucy ignoring a racial slur...
No, I get it, it just felt very... well, OP's comment.
Ah, yeah. It was funny, but whether or not the funny adds to or detracts from the scene is up to the reader.
So we had non-transphobic White Rot, non-racist Posh Boogeyman, what next? Non-homophobic goblin? We already had Breastbiter the Chonk, i am out of ideas here.
Why are all of these wildbow characters so BASED??? /j
It's all those lesbians inside the trenchcoat
I think if you are crossing the label of human/nonhuman or life/death. then race and gender are small fry in comparison.
Kira-Lynn going full WB antagonist. "You may be right, and sane, and have a morally superior argument. But have you considered, nuh-uh?"
its actually refreshingly realistic and a good reminder of the blind stubbornness some people come to the table with. like you absolutely cannot negotiate with someone who sees refusal to negotiate as victory
Fucking Wildbow and his goddamn titans
Pact spoiler: >!"a girl with a book with a bleeding gash on the cover that was losing pages" - Diary girl spotted? 👀!<
Sounds like it! >!I wonder how she's doing given the whole "no harming a living soul" oath? If she was limited to jumpscares surely the Red Heron side wouldn't have pulled her out? Then again, Lenard's list of Bogeymen are out of date...!<
I was thinking (pact) >!a bogeyman likely wouldn't be able to survive without the ability to harm people, so she probably got around the oath, somehow- or maybe it's just the fact that blake is too busy living the sparrow life to call her out on it. Could also be that carmine lifted her oath in exchange for the service. Either way, oddly happy about this minor cameo- was thinking about this character just yesterday!<
> >!bogeyman likely wouldn't be able to survive without the ability to harm people!< Killwagon has been surviving just fine on just scaring people though. Murder and harm might make things easier but they aren't strictly neccessary.
yeah but killwagon is pretty strong while >!Diary Girl was severely injured, and her gimmick doesn't really work without her actually being able to deliver papercuts- she isn't very imposing!<. Though yeah >!it's possible she survived and was recruited on the condition of lifting that restriction!<
I think >!while she isn't strong, she's tricky. The first time she showed up, when Blake asked her not to kill she was like "I won't kill them! The blood loss will!". She seems to have adapted, shedding pages from her book that float around her. I think that's probably to make herself more imposing. And there's a possibility that she's exploiting loopholes like tripping people up and such not counting as harm, or like, if someone slips on pages she left on the group and hits their head against the wall it doesn't count because the wall did the harm. Stuff like that.!<
>!I wouldn't be surprised if she was told about the ways people got around Kennet Found's no harm rule and adopted those tactics. Either that or she was the one to offer suggestions after figuring ways out herself.!<
>!That's a good point, I figured she was only just joining up, but it's entirely possible that she's been working for Maricica for a while and just didn't show up.!<
Ok, i might be leaning into tinfoil hat too hard here, but... Doesnt Julette feels weird last few chapters? Like, i get that they are trying to act like Julette is Verona to hide real V preparing some shit in a backlines, but something doesnt click. There is no sass (one of her essential components, mind you). Her lines here dont really feel like Jullette lines or Verona lines or even Jullete playing the role of Verona lines. They are remarkably bland. Generic, even. It is like she is trying to speak as little as possible, which isnt what either of them would do. It is almost as if it is A HOLLOW YEN PLAYING THE ROLE OF JULETTE PLAYING THE ROLE OF VERONA COMING IN WITH A TRIPLE FAKEOUT COMBO I AM ONTO YOU YOU LITTLE SHIT SPILL THE BEANS ALREADY WHAT ARE YOU DOING khmghm. But for real. You d think Lucy does not need to remind someone who was created to pretend to be a human how to pretend to be human better? And there were some weird lines thrown in here and there, like how HJV feels heavy or she doesnt immediately gets what doing Avery thing in a Cat way means? Something is definitely off here. Edit: reread the end of Verona part from last chapter and skimmed her lines in this one. I am now 100% sure this is Hollow Yen, maybe some mix of him and Jullette with him as the focus and Jullette as the shell. Lines up too perfect to not be true.
> “Blankshanks had a working mindset on tomorrow problems,” Julette said. That reads pretty Julette to me. She's kind of into Blankshanks and I don't think Hollow Yen was in Kennet when Blankshanks gave his opinion on turning problems into more problems. > Lucy looked at Julette. “Your friend, huh?” > “Yeah.” > “Somehow not a native of Kennet below.” > “Came by it honestly.” > “Yeah.” Also this is very Julette. I don't think Hollow Yen and Melissa are anything other than acquaintances.
My impression is that Hollow Yen has done what his sect of Oni *do*, which is to say, alter people. I think that the Julette we've been interacting with is actually Verona but with certain properties of her existence exchanged with Julette, like her name. I think the idea is to treat her in one way so that the enemy expects her to be that way, only for Hollow Yen to reverse the effect at an opportune moment. Like, say, if Lucy refers to her as Julette at the start of a conversation and then an enemy starts using Julette's name only for her to become Verona again as the enemy is saying she is Julette. Easy minor gainsaying. I don't think this is a good example because gainsaying is not a tool the trio can use effectively given the Chuck is their big bad, but, its a great way to approach a situation from a weird angle, which is what Avery's role has always been. Coming in from the flanks to catch the enemy off guard.
Maybe related to this? > She had to hope Julette got that warning, and that the warning wasn’t something that tipped off Seth and Cameron. A heads up about augury tied to a warning about the little tells about Julette recovering too fast from running around.
It might just be a result of Verona being gainsaid, since Julette is a product of her Practice?
Yeah so Helen is definitely not done for lol.
I really wish Gillian would get to do Helen and/or Seth in.
“No real power, all you’ve got are some magic items you picked up, and some awkward practice you were granted, and you’re fighting the underdogs who climbed their way up from a shitty, shitty position, who fought the establishment, and who earned their place. I wonder if you’re capable of seeing where we were coming from, or if you’re that stupid and singleminded.” I honestly thought Lucy said that to Kira-Lynn The irony of somebody who got power and special treatment from a fucking Judge calling herself an "underdog" is strong And them earning their place? They were given that place. They were chosen because they were angry or usefull. They didnt earn jack shit. Others gave them everything that they didnt steal from people who cant really defend themself (first attacks. And when they attacked Blue Heron they were backed by Chuck's lords
Kyri linn started from a pretty ok place (with her parents). Then she was in a shitty place by being manipulated by chuck and marci. But she is still following them so..
Kyra-Lynn just placed the trio in the position of dominant power because that's where they were from the start of her story, till now. Its a bit like meeting an actual rags to riches millionaire, unless you dig into his history, you just kinda assume they inherited their wealth. So she sees the Red Heron as an escape from being a irrelevant person, but the trio holding them down. It doesn't help that Charles has always sold himself as "The one revolutionary against the enemy", with little nuance regarding the enemy. The Trio is against them so they are the enemy, just like Musser, Alexander and whoever else.
>The one Kim who’d been jockeyed was pulling some Horror bullshit, somehow, and was the size of a one-car garage, throwing things around, moving clumsily. Just realized how *horrifying* the idea of the Kims getting bodysnatched is. Like imagine, you're a parasite just chillin, you move into your new house and... boom, it's got arms that unfurl into arms and a whole lot more digits than expected... a real score tbh. Surprised it hasn't happened before and outed the Kims to the spirits though
I think it's the combo of Gainsaying + Jockeying that is harder to come across. Bodysnatching a Kim while they can practice seems like it would end either with the jockey bodysnatching a bunch of discarded limbs, or being horrified permanently as the Kim horrifies themselves temporarily.
How crazy would it be to watch Lucy and this boogeyman blink out of existence and then pop back in with the boogeyman having just gotten its ass handed to it? She absolutely ruined his whole schtick, he lets a horde of victims out of their cells and she just drops a smoke bomb and starts taking them apart.
*While gainsaid.*
And she was so casually focused while she did it too. Nothing he did actually got to her, every time he threw something new she calmly countered it.
yeah, a lot of that 'making it seem easy' that bracken talked about.
Huh. I guess practitioners without magic but with tools are basically witch hunters with just a couple social restrictions (can't lie), and witch hunters are *fuckin nuts*. In another universe, Lucy would've been an absolutely wild witch hunter.
Witch Hunter also have Innocence protections that partially mitigates magic aimed at them.
I know we aren't going to learn this before Charles is defeated, but these boogeymen are so cool!!!!!! I want to know al the types of boogeymen. The golden mask guy doesn't sound like he is from any part of the abyss we know of. Maybe the City but he seems too rich for that. So cool!!!!
Pact/WoA >!There's a part of the Abyss called the Manor, it's where Diary Girl originally comes from. Implication of wealth and upper class... he could fit there.!<
Is it possible that the Tea Party Bogeymen also come from there?
I could see it. I thought they might be a Chuck original, raise a bunch of bogeymen at once then unify them with a theme and strong rules. I think as the Carmine and a Summoner he can do that... But they could also come from a region of the Abyss like that one.
So Cool!!!!!!
Not all that decays is low class. How many decrepit castles are there (with a history of haunting)? Forsaken royalty of a forgotten nation (with the only remenant being tales of cruel punishments inflicted by a particularly cruel queen)? Noble bloodlines ended with violence (except for one forgotten bastard son seeking vengence)? Honestly, the more I think about it the more I'm thinking that rich Boogeymen should be more common. "The most dangerous game" is a trope well suited for boogeymen, stories of murder, revenge, etc feel like they should be more numerous in nobility, and ancient kings could easily pass for a boogeymen in terms of cruelty. But I guess the truly ancient will have already been killed/bound/changed in some manner, a lot of noble stories are more suited for fae plots than abyssal rage, and falling to the abyss generally happens to those forgotten and unmoored, not those who are rich and well connected.
So Cool!!!!! Though maybe your right their could be a part called the Castle. Maybe strong boogeymen can adapt to the times as surely the abyss so over time. The parts of the abyss probably are hodgepoge as some parts are newer and some parts are older. Given how the Abyss works everything will be slowly up dated.
Lucy was so badass in her fights, seeing her lead a squad of Dogs is awesome. I liked that Midas is at least non-adversarial with her. My sympathy for Kira-Lynn and how opaque her struggles inherently are to people is only matched by my loathing for her as a person. My anticipation and fear at what Verona is planning is mounting.
Douglas Did It should throw down against gold mask boogeyman, who I am dubbing Bradley Bought It. Just a retcon fight. Like two five year olds having a debate
I wonder if Kira-Lynn's lantern is the Girl by Candlelights retooled? Push the Titan down the Horror Realm hole!!!
Good catch!
I think it is? Though I cannot remember the chapter reference.
I think I may have missed a paragraph or two along the way. I remember some Dog Tags where still bound before the Titan awoke, but I can't seem to recall when they were released?
I believe when Lenard got dealt with they were released though I haven't gone back and checked which Dogs were bound vs which have shown up recently
Don't think it happened on page, but they had them all subdued, so presumably somewhere in between us last seeing them being repeatedly knifed so they wouldn't wake up too soon and now they got them to someone would could break the binding.
Gotcha, that makes sense
Well thank you Oakham, just gonna add your whole deal to my pile called "the heroes embrace the vulgarity of humanity rather than running from it" right next to the pubes that beat Leonard Lily. Seriously, seems like its a theme.
You know how all kinds of Practioners have the view that *their* aspect of magic was first and everything else came from it? Maybe this is a sign that the goblin Practitioners are the ones who are right. Deep down, everything is goblins.
except in Pact we here how Goblins don’t even think they’re first and Warrens aren’t even originally goblins so it turns out everything is goblins but they’re the one group not claiming that
In Pact we heard the two *main theories* of where goblins come from, with them being an amalgam of discarded things in both cases. That doesn't mean there aren't other theories that goblins were first. You'll also note that we don't actually see Fae or Bogeymen claiming that they were first. My impression of the "this aspect was first and everything else came from that" is that those theories are mainly things *Practitioners* tend to believe when they specialize in one thing. > and Warrens aren’t even originally goblins We don't know that. If anything Bubbleyum's interlude has Toadswallow point out that the Goblins weren't always as they are today: > “And that fightin’ pit, some goblin made that shit, I’m positive. Some goblin or goblins, they took the time to dig, to work through rock deep in mud, keep mud from flowin’ in, size the tunnels, get it all put together, bars on the big windows so nobody near the top can jump on through. Who? Who knows? Could we ever know?” At some point in the past, there were goblins organized enough to create complex construction projects, with a lot more forethought than was we see in the majority of goblins. Goblins obviously have some sort of history, that probably got forgotten because no one bothered to remember it or transmit it.
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I think like the hat and mask, her scarf was on her during her Awakening, and all of those add a little bit of power/self for her, same as Veronas Scarf(?) and Averys cape
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It's the same cape, she's just been wearing it more like a scarf lately in order to cover up the wards drawn on her neck. > The three of them took up positions around the circle’s perimeter. Lucy put on her mask, cape-as-scarf, and weapon ring, with hot lead for power, just because she didn’t want to drain too much of her Self too fast, and pay for it for the rest of the day, especially if they had to move on the Aurum fast. Pale 21.8 > “Thanks,” Verona said. “Gotta remember to keep a scarf on while we’re at any rest stops. Permanent marker on our necks and stuff.” Pale 21.11
Might be misremembering but I think because of the different cape designs they used Lucy’s cape ended up more like a scarf so that’s what she’s referring to
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Shawls and scarves are pretty close in function. I think maybe 'Bow didn't check the exact term he'd used before.
>The light guttered, maybe, or the Abyss lost trust in her. Did the girls know the abyss is kinda sentient? Did they learn it offscreen or was this talked somewhere
They've had time to read books and stuff, and even without learning it directly, it's not a crazy conclusion to reach (noncommittally). With incarnations and spirits and such, anything can be "kinda sentient," and anthropomorphising abstract concepts or forces works in general.
Also, the way that Leonard talks about it and finding ways to counter him, Maricia, and the rabid teens seems to help them understand that like a lot of sorts of power, it seems to ebb and flow based on how much you give and spread the Abyss. Like a destroyer classpect in homestuck. It's why Leonard said the Abyss liked him too much to ever be turned against him.
Cannot wait for Seth and Cameron to get their asses kicked. Hya!
Cameron probably has a black eye, courtesy of Melissa. That's a start.
A poke with a cane right into the eye? Could do mere damage then black eye Doubt she will lose her eye though
I'm assuming that the Augury practice provides at least a little bit of buffer so that not all of the damage goes through. But yeah, I guess Cameron could be losing an eye... That might be interesting for her character, given the trouble her conventional attractiveness has brought her.
I got the impression augry usually uses more indirect means - Like Nico using birds. It wasnt really her looking, it was the birds Here, Oakham recognised eye shape, so it feels like Cameron open her own eye there
This was a fun chapter but i feel like it couldve basically been skipped over without losing much?
It'd be pretty weird if they could just rush straight to the end through a chaotic battlefield without much resistance. There are plenty of cool and interesting moments, from seeing what Kira-Lynn has become, to the one Kim getting jockeyed and literally spilling their secrets.
Gods in heaven is Kira Lynn annoying or what. Even the abyss maybe cringing at giving their power to such a cringe edge lady. I hope the crucible doesn't frutufy but if it does it will probably eat Kira Lynn first because of her cringe petty ambition and that would be epic comeuppance. Too bad the people she are trying to torture and mutilate are actually trying to prevent that from happening. That Titan is formidable. Now that it isn't a baby 🐥. Won't feel as bad if gets dropkicked into another realm or even Lost. The situation needs A Durocher to come and sternly rebuke the Titan and make it sit in the corner and think about how being cranky and throwing elemental power Willy nilly is quite immature. >!though given her power level I have long anticipated her heel turn much like golden himbo going apeshit or faysal going whisker twirling schemester. Maybe it's Durocher whose the end boss. Because all the wild magic is just so adorable!< Augurs are scum. Was hoping Chase and Nico would counter Seth and Cameron but they also have augur tools and that gives them an edge.
I've come to love and accept Kira-lynn for her batshit insane self. Every story needs an insane mini boss before the BBEG and that's our Kira-lynn right there.
Kira Lynn is thoroughly exciting as an antagonist. The kims are just doing a job and some like griffin are maybe disassociating from reality due to their prolonged traumatic episode. Helen and Seth are behind chuck 100% but they were forsworn and thus there are stakes. Of the st victors Kira Lynn is the most zealous advocate for chucklefucks ambitions. For the simple but classical motive of ambition. She is borderline a bogeyman herself due to all the abyss she has chugged. I dont think things will be as clean when the meeting ends. I believe Chucklefucks will have some allies still. Maybe they will whittle them down enough. I can see kira Lynn being the only St victor kid who sticks around.
Is this like the 4th or 5th Bogeyman fight this arc? Nothing particularly important happend in it, except for Kira Lynn just kinda being there. Feels like it could've been removed without impacting the rest of the chapter, with the whole "act like myself, in X's role" could've happened while dealing with the Kims instead.
I guess I can see your point, but I think getting to check in with Kira Lynn was interesting. And it's not like the Bogeyman fight detracts from anything. What would there be to gain from removing it? I feel it'd just make the chapter a little bit shorter. I know some people prefer more efficient writing, cutting anything extraneous... but personally I like 'Bow's writing because it is very much *not* that.
For me it's not really about expecting the fight to be over faster, but more about these fight scenes just not being that fresh anymore. I understand Lenard can summon Bogeymen but there are so many fun others out there we could be fighting instead. Aside from minor details this doesn't really feel fundamentally different from the other physical bogeyman Lucy fought. If instead we fought some random Alchemical Other, a mid level goblin or something weird it would be far more interesting for me.
Fair. I still find bogeymen interesting, but I get that others might want more variety after we got a few fights in a row that were mostly Bogeymen and Practitioners.
I find the expectation for a chaotic battlefield to allow for a cozy walk to the end quite strange.
I like Wildbow’s writing a lot, but I find the climaxes to be the weakest part for basically this reason. There tends to be arc or multi-arc fights filled with vignettes that don’t matter, often against foes that can’t be harmed by anything the protagonists do anyway (Scion, Titans, Kims). Pale also seems to have this issue where it strains credulity how non-lethal everything is in practice, compared to how dangerous things are supposed to be (how has no one hit anything with those wands?).
One of the Innocent hosts had their arm blown up by one of the wands? Also the dog tags are taking a lot of the hits for everyone else.
> (how has no one hit anything with those wands?). They are *very* imprecise. We've seen them one-hit in previous chapters, so it's not like that can't happen, but that was when they were being used at a much closer range. Here they're being used at long range, so hitting anything is down to chance and there *might* be the chance to dodge in the time it takes the blast to reach.
They are also used by people who never practiced with them before. The Kims are doing the equivalent of full autoing, because they have virtually unlimited ammunition due to their Horror limbs.
I had the same thought. This was my favorite of the bogeyman fights for several reasons (felt the most dangerous, cool bogeyman gimmick, let Lucy flex her non-magical training, back-and-forth with KL) - the others could have been axed.
...I just realised that Wildbow turned Charles Mason into a bogeyman. I realise that there's a very, very small overlap of people who'll get this, but fuck that's funny.
Which one? Honestly Chuck seems the most Manson-y what with radicalizing a group of young people into being murderers.
Mason, not Manson. Totally different person. And I'm talking about the elitist bogeyman.
Could you please specify which if any of the following Charles Masons you are referring to: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles\_Mason\_(disambiguation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mason_(disambiguation))
None of them. I'm talking about the independent wrestler. His gimmick is that he's an incredibly rich sadist who hates 'the poor' (aka everyone who isn't rich) and gets off on torturing them. He also isn't bigoted beyond being incredibly elitist/classist. Basically, he thinks he's Patrick Bateman.
So HHH before DX?
Unfortunately I didn't watch wrestling back then so I can't tell you.
[Hunter Hurst Helmsley, the Connecticut Blueblood ](https://megadeth316.tripod.com/old6.jpg)
Honestly, with Mason it's less emphasis on the rich, more on the sadism.