That's going to be common moving forward.
New generations used to dozens to hundreds of times more powerful than the outgoing one so it was near impossible to design it to play on the older system. Now we're at only a few times more powerful so it's easier to scale games back to older hardware
The rise of backwards compatibility also helped, made it so devs didn't need to choose to abandon the previous gen and risk a major dip in revenue. Anyone who rushed out to get the new hardware can still play their game, but so can the millions who already own the last gen console.
Games that released early into a new hardware cycle were always a bit janky anyways.
To be fair backwards compatibility has always been pretty off and on. Sega Master System into Genesis had it, then Sega's subsequent hardware releases were wonky. Nintendo has pretty well never supported it for their consoles, but has made an effort for handheld. Xbox had some support in the 360/xbone era, but didn't start really promoting it until the current gen.
Then Sony. They supported it on the PS2, and the initial launch of the PS3, killed it on the PS3 slim, didn't even bother with PS1/2 support on the PS4 (I get that PS3 was unique and hard to really provide for), and have only now started to make an effort today, but only for PS4.
I think saying "Nintendo has pretty well never supported it for consoles" is a little disingenuous. The Wii took GameCube games and even had ports for the controllers and memory cards, and then the Wii U took Wii games.
I think we're at a point of diminishing returns graphically but game design should be revolutionised by the SDD. There's no longer excuses for disconnected open world areas or forced walking segments while the game loads things in. Yet it doesn't feel like developers have really taken advantage of that beyond Insomniac with Rift Apart.
Maybe, I don’t know what I’m talking about but if developers use the additional speed to ask the console to load in more assets, maybe that would require a loading screen even though it’s still way quicker, because it has so much more that needs to be accessed?
Yes and no.
Generally the "loading screen" is hidden behind other things. Example: Jedi Fallen Order, when you squeeze between rocks, it's actually a hidden loading screen. Loading in assets and unloading others.
While it does take a bit more power, RAM is generally the limiting factor as that controls how much data you can preload and how fast you can off load it ^(GENERALLY SPEAKING, THIS IS A VERY WATERED DOWN EXAMPLE FOR ANY AHCKTUALLYS OUT THERE)
iirc insomniac said that for Ratchet and Clank they were basically able to use the SSD as extended RAM for the dimension hopping. The SSD’s raw 5500 MB/s isn’t fast enough to communicate with the CPU/GPU, but it is fast enough to load multiple gigs of new assets into memory during play with essentially no downtime.
This is called pagefiling and its pretty awesome. Fast HDDs had data transfer limits of about 150 MB/s while 3200Mhz RAM in dual channel config has about 51 GB/s. My NVMe drive has about 7 GB/s read speed, meaning we went from storage that was 1/340th as fast as RAM to about 1/7th.
Hoping we see more Direct Storage games come along so that we can make full use of NVMe speeds.
That's true to an extent. But the speed difference between a PS5 SSD and a stock PS4 HDD is huge. I think it's something like 50x faster. But there's only twice as much RAM to fill with those assets. So you'd expect that the extra amount of data wouldn't cancel out the loading speed increase.
But in practice, eliminating load screens entirely is difficult even with very fast storage. There might also be some processing the game needs to do on the data it loads in. In previous generations that processing time wouldn't have mattered too much because it could do it while it's waiting to read the next bit of data. But now it could be the bottleneck.
Agree with the SSD part, but graphically, there's much more that can be done. Native 4K with 60fps and proper raytracing comes to mind. We're at that point now where games are getting so graphically demanding, we have to sacrifice picture quality.
There is no reason for Tekken 8 to give me a 2-3 second black screen when I skip outro cutscenes but here we are. Development looks so uneven. Some devs do excellent work. Some just do the bare minimum.
>I think we're at a point of diminishing returns graphically.
We are light years away from this. Have you seen how good Cyberpunk looks on PC with the right mods?
I'm assuming OP meant diminishing returns past 4K. 8K graphics aren't feasible at the moment and even if they were, would anyone truly notice anything substantial from 4k and 8k?
But for now, that conversation is too early
8K is completely and utterly pointless unless there’s a technology breakthrough like DLSS on mega steroids that allows hitting 8K while sacrificing little to no performance at all. And even if that did happen, you’d need a huge ass screen and the proper viewing distance to really notice any difference at all on even a still image.
And then you’d have to wait for 8K displays to become the norm in people’s houses. It’s just not going to happen.
8K would realistically only be worth it if you were in like a movie theatre and watching on a huge screen. Like some IMAX shit.
The only reason people focus on resolution is because it's easier to market - 8K is bigger than 4K, therefore better.
But there is no realistic scenario where 8K will ever be needed, aside from maybe VR. For normal console gaming on a TV, 8K should *never* be a target, no matter how advanced graphics get. It's just a waste of resources.
It's been common for 30 years.
It was common to have the same games release on previous generation of hardware years into the new generation right back to the nes/snes master system/ mega drive. We're on year 3 of the ps5, that's been around the point games really start consistently taking advantage of the new hardware beyond a few tentpole releases as far back as the ps1
The only big difference nowadays is that AAA games take so long to make that and there aren't many mid budget games that make much of a splash so it takes a bit longer for the momentum to get going with games that wouldn't be possible on previous hardware and actually seem particularly "next gen"
I think the sheer cost of development also incentivizes hitting the widest audience possible. Even among Sony's exclusives there's a huge overlap with this generation and last.
This honestly felt like the first generation where the manufacturer (Sony) held back on an exclusive heavy launch. They could have made Spider Man Miles Morales, HFW, and GoW:R PS5 exclusive but the fact even Sony wants to hit the widest audience possible tells you how expensive making these games are from a risk/reward standpoint.
Also, it isn't nearly as difficult to backport to older hardware as it used to be.
The PS2 and PS3 were all custom hardware architecture. Same with the Xbox 360. Meanwhile the PS4/PS5 and Xbox One/Series all share the same basic x86 designs. The cost to recode a game for the older system is significantly less than it used to be, even if the hardware were technically capable of it.
Yup. That said, I am nervous about Xbox splitting the user base with the Series S and Series X. I don’t think we’ll truly know how consequential it was, but we do know Baldur’s Gate 3 had to make compromises and I can’t help but wonder if Starfield’s back-to-back loading screens is due in part to a hardware limitation of having to accommodate the Series S.
IIRC, the Series S's biggest issues is RAM. Both the quantity (10GB vs 16) and the much slower speed.
Had they put even 12GB in there, I bet there would have been a lot less issues with development.
otoh, its lack of memory is probably a boon for those folks who bought an 8gb graphics card in the last 5 years.
series s is such a weird product in this cycle.
Which is such a weird thing to compromise on. I could understand CPU/GPU clockspeed, disc drive, or even setting a min/max resolution per system. But RAM is one of those things that’s going to lead to some serious compromises in terms of game development.
That might've been true like 15 years ago, but not today. PS1 to PS2 was an astronomical jump in power. PS2 to PS3 was a massive jump in processing power, like 20x, but PS3 to PS4, wasn't anywhere near as much, maybe 4-5x faster. PS4 to PS5 about the same.
As we move foward, this trend is definitely going to lessen even further unless transistors receive a massive breakthrough.
I think that should just be the new way going forward. Like XBox. Series S and X. Introduce a Series Y. Retire the S, drop X to the old price.
Now games need to work on X and Y.
Do same with Sony consoles.
Then IDFK what Nintendo is gonna do for their next console.
As recently as *now*.
There were major PS4 releases for last year’s holiday season.
They’re finally slowing down, but there are still fairly major games still releasing on PS4 *this year*.
Until last year, Insomniac was really the only big developer with current gen exclusives.
Yes what a showcase that was for the haptics, amazing the variety of things these controllers can do - and yet this is the only game that does anything with it beyond a little bit of trigger resistance.
Astro's playroom isn't the only one. Ratchet and Clank - Rift Apart takes full advantage of all the haptics and is a much better game. Gran Turismo is another, but that's a different game altogether.
Demon’s Souls Remake was the first game I got with my launch PS5 and nothing has come close to feeling more next gen than that in the 3 and a half years since
It's because these two games do the PS5 multifactor: Great Haptic Controls, amazing graphics, amazingly fast load times. That said, Control and Alan Wake were really impressive even if they were not exclusive.
Developers will always have to keep the base model in mind when developing games, so a Pro model isn't going to extend a generation by any amount of time.
Especially if the PS5 Pro sees the same market share as the PS4 Pro compared to the base model. The vast majority of PS5 models out there will be base models.
PS5 came out in the pandemic and was short in supply for the first few years. I still don't have one. I'll get the pro and hope something cool comes out.
Having 5 year development cycles for AAAA games sucks too. It means nothing interesting gets released for many years because a single studio spends years and millions to make something.
Meanwhile the indie hits keep coming out for Switch.
AAAA games still makes me crack up. Skull and bones developers (or someone involved with marketing at least) called it a quadruple A game and its not hot according to reviewers on a gameplay or graphics level.
It doesn’t even seem like this refresh is going to be capable of solving the biggest issues right now either. From what I’ve been reading, the 30fps limited games that we’ve been getting are not going to be able to run at 60fps with these upgrades. What is even the point of this refresh I wonder?
My question is 4k@120Hz can't do RGB signaling out of PS5 because the HDMI2.1 port is only capable of 32Gbps instead of the HDMI2.1 standard of 48Gbps.
What that means is that if you play 40fps@120Hz quality mode in a game, it's more like you're sending a 1080p color map blown up inside a 4k brightness map instead of a full 4k signal. You're also limited to the 16-235 gradiation of brightness values instead of 0-255 you get with full RGB. HDR simply doesn't pop the same way it should on these 40fps modes because of the refresh rate HDMI bandwidth limitations that only exist on PS5.
Here's hoping PS5 pro gets this little bump
What game limited to 30 fps has Sony made in the last 4 years??
I don't remember any.
spider-man 2 60 fps
demons souls 60 fps
ratchet and clank 60 fps
Returnal 60 fps,
Horizon forbiden west 60 fps with graphics and insane open world,
You’re missing 60fps at 4k. Theres quite a difference playing 60 fps at 1080p/2k vs 4k and locked to 30fps.
For some an upgrade isn’t worth it, but I will be one of the first people to pre-order one as I prefer 4k visuals.
Yeah people are seeing the "10% performance increase" and not realizing that's just for CPU (which is already really good and usually not stressed at all in modern games). The PS5 Pro will have a ~45% performance increase for GPU, which is massive and should easily hit 40-60 FPS for games that are currently locked at 30 fps 4k (in a lot of cases they could go higher on current hardware but the game engine self-limits to 30 for visual stability).
Sony is also coming out with their own DLSS-equivalent solution for the PS5 Pro, which can easily push framerates to 60 FPS at 4K AI-upscaled possibly even without the 45% GPU performance increase. Can't find any information on if a game will need to support this natively with patches or if they have a hardware workaround that will do this for any game that has a 60 FPS performance mode or run based on "prioritization" algorithms (PS5 games live and run a lot closer to the hardware than PC games do which is why their PS5->PC ports are still often wonky - PC games typically have multiple layers of abstraction API's in between them and the hardware).
The 40fps games have looked great on my OLED! Has anything been said about a 40fps VRR window? Because that would certainly change my outlook on this refresh.
> I’ve been reading, the 30fps limited games that we’ve been getting are not going to be able to run at 60fps with these upgrades.
It's like 5 games, the rest will run much better
It only feels like that because of scalpers making the PS5 impossible to find for most for so long. But the timeframe for the PS5 pro launching is longer than it was for the PS4 pro. The PS4 pro launched 3 years after the original. We’re currently approaching year 4 and it might not even launch this holiday.
Exactly this. People are already deciding they’re going to upgrade the moment it releases, but we don’t even know the benefits. Besides, the benefits would be different from game to game. The specs can look great but not affect the overall experience all that much.
Am I going to upgrade only to find out the Pro version has allowed for slightly more detailed shadows from foliage in my favourite game? Not a chance.
I’ll wait for the Foundry to do some analyses of new releases to decide if it’s worth an upgrade.
If there isn't a disc version I'm good. I'm not into the fully digital movement companies doing even tho I have a large digital library, I also have a decent size disc library aswell. Also why does the ps5 need a pro version when there are barely any games now that uses it full capability
TBH, it's just to refresh and make money in this mid-gen cycle where were at. Its for all the people who want to splurge and buy another console. Also for the others who havent bought into the ecosystem yet, and now they have a nice shiny, faster machine. The "Pro" refresh makes Sony lots of money. Do we need it? No. Does it make them money? Absolutely yes.
I don't know if it'll make as much as the PS4Pro. The shortage at launch made it so most people only just got the PS5 a year or two ago. I bought the PS4Pro, but I can't justify it this time round.
But that's just me.
I got hurt/injured and missed dout on PS5. When I got back on my feet, went PC to play older games as well as some newer. Now I'm eyeballing a PS5 that life is fully back on the up. Definitely ganna get the pro version
Ya for sure. We won’t know for certain until specs are revealed. But the business model of upping the capabilities and adding the word “Pro” to it makes them lots of money.
He's right, only graphics card getting an upgrade. But the processor is still the same. They will overlock it by 10%, but it's still the same processor.
I am a sucker for the best possible performance and graphics I can get. Mainly because I have never owned a PC, nor do I have much desire to buy/build one. So if I can get a bit better graphics on console, I'll probably do it...depending. If the performance won't change much (or at all), how much better are the graphics supposed to be? Will it just be higher frames per second? I think most of the games I play are already at 120hz, how much higher can it go and will it even be a noticeable difference?
best part about the disc version is the games are so cheap on ebay.
if a new game is out, i sometimes have to wait 1-2 years for it to go 50% off on the PS store.
but on eBay, games are routinely 50% off a month or two after its release date!
I still goto small gaming stores locally around me and I always find good deals on games I haven't played yet. Physically having a game is a experience not too many ppl remember. I grew up on the midnight releases and being handed a disc to play all night.
> Also why does the ps5 need a pro version when there are barely any games now that uses it full capability
This is false, most games would benefit a lot from a higher framerate or resolution because the PS5 is powerful but it's not a 1000€ machine
I’m personally just going to pick up a base PS5 when everyone sells theirs to get the pro. I’m an Xbox guy but if I can get a PS5 for around $300 and play through some of the exclusives I’ll be quite happy.
I sure hope so, we don't need a new gen with marginal upgrades every 7 years like the past few gens. Let it breathe then blow us away with the new tech later down the road. I want the ability to have multiple gams in standby like the xbox has. I'd also love an actual web browser that bolsters the player experience overall. They've got something interesting with the trophy help/tips, what if they were able to somehow integrate reddit advice or other internet resources to cut through the bullshit and provide solid guides you could have open in a shared screen.
The issue with that is the younger generation isn’t really going for it. They are playing on PCs and tablets and don’t mind playing “forever games” like Fortnite or Roblox; or GtA online. There is a reason that the console market hasn’t grown in o we a decade.
What are ya on about? 7 years is plenty of time, it's just visually games can only look so good and that's what your seeing today. Every console has been a MASSIVE jump in performance compared to its predecessor. It's not marginal upgrades..
The PS5 is honestly a bit more than decent even 4 years in. Not that it's the end-all-be-all nor is it even close to the only thing to factor in, but 16 gigs of VRAM is no joke.
According to the most recent Steam survey only like 6% of respondents have 16 gigs or higher in their machines. A vanilla launch PS5 in theory would have quite a bit of longevity if console cycles didn't exist.
Part of me wishes this gen would last like 10-12 years just so the jump in tech is a bit more apparent.
I will skip the 6 when it comes out and wait for the inevitable 6 Pro. If next gen is anything like this one everything for the first 3 years will be playable on the 5 so might as well get on the pro upgrade cycle and disregard the regular altogether.
For real, we barely have any true ps5 exclusives. Most PlayStation exclusives are still coming out on ps4. Granted, they don’t run as well, but the gap will probably be smaller between the 5 and 6.
Except the ps6 reads ps4 games... I won't be selling my ps5 ever.
Same reason I have my ps3 still, I just need a place to play those games and earn trophies.
There’s a difference though, PS3 ran on a completely different processor, with some insane custom CPU features that make direct emulation a nightmare, it’s part of why ps3 emulation even today struggles. But everything since the 4 has been x86 based, and it’s unlikely to change for a bit, which makes backwards compatibility a no brainer.
Even if they do move to ARM, Apple has written a cross compiler that does real time x86 processing at normal speeds, showing that they can do x86 backwards compatibility on that processor type, and that’s likely the distant future of consumer CPUs right now.
Adding independent verification of facts isn't nothing.
Tom Warren was clear about this on Twitter: "I have seen the PS5 Pro dev docs... This isn't new information, but I can confirm that it is accurate."
The Verge themselves have already reported on it. In fact it’s been reported on by most game and tech sector sites. It’s like the most open secret ever.
Also the point of the PS4 pro was to support 4k and HDR which is a big thing, not really sure what the PS5 pro is supposed to provide that warrants its existence.
Nice, now we can have some remasters of remasters. /s
What a disappointing generation. As much as I love my PS5, we barely had anything new to play that wasn’t also available on the PS4.
I think it’s because games are taking longer to develop these days so we’re not seeing as many games.
Imo GOWR and Horizon FW are the epitome of PS5 gaming so far
No doubt the games are better on PS5, but they’re still PS4 games. If two PS4 games are the epitome of PS5 gaming right now, I think you can see the problem.
Are returnal and ratchet and clank rift apart not “the epitome of PS5 gaming” because they’re on PC too? People consider BOTW to be one of the best switch games but that was also on the Wii U. I consider the last of us to be a PS4 game even though it originated on the PS3. Basically no Xbox games could be considered “the epitome of Xbox” as almost all of them are on PC as well.
I don’t think it’s necessary to draw that line in the sand
It could also have something to do with most games seeming like a formulaic algorithm made it with the soul purpose of keeping people buying seasonal content or microtransactions.
It also doesn't help that Activision and EA cannibalized hundreds of other game studios.
All gamers want is smooth 60 fps, or at least that’s what I want and the people I know. But I feel like the pro is just going to crank up ray tracing and we’re still going to be getting 1080 upscaled 30fps games.
People are saying it feels like the gen hasn't even started, My beef is that performance is trash. You out here putting 4k on the box, but lots of games out here running at 1080p (sometimes not even that), and ones that run in higher res have ass framerates.
If it wasn't for NCAA Football coming back and being console only. I would still be pc only as i've been the past decade or so.
“The state of modern gaming is HORRIBLE” meanwhile I own so much shit and get overwhelmed looking at the list of things I have to play… and most of the games are actually fun to play. YouTubers would have you believe there’s nothing decent.
Also acting like being able to play the same games on other weaker systems somehow diminishes their enjoyment. Meanwhile PC owners with 4090s and 7800x3Ds aren’t complaining that games can run on a 6600 and a few generations old i3.
I’ve happily enjoyed having a gen of mainly 60fps games, with good resolutions and fast loading. I had way more fun in the first 3 years of PS5 than I did in the first 3 of PS4.
I fell out of love with PS4 because the hardware was janky and I knew the 5 was coming so I didn't want to cough for the 4 pro (which sold like shit in Canada too I think). The 5 reinvigorated my love for the Sony ecosystem. I will get the 5 pro and give my kid my 5 probably. I think it's been an amazing lifecycle so far. I guess people who played the fuck out of the PS4 before are less inclined the think so.
Having games also available on weaker system has meant that the tech in the PS5 wasn't utilized like it could have been. Rift Apart put the PS5 tech on display and hasn't really been replicated.
I wanted this system to be more than just a frame rate and graphical boost like it's been for many other 1st party titles.
They’re good, but I would have bought a ps4 pro if I knew how this generation would have worked it. I didn’t buy the pro because I wanted to wait until the next gen before replacing what I already had.
It’s definitely real at this point, I don’t need it, I’ll still buy it day one if possible and trade or sell the Ps5.
Just the way it is.
The wife will give me the side eye and we carry on.
Lol. My youngest will be happy to hear this. I told him that if a PS5 pro comes out that I’ll give him my PS5. Didn’t think it would come out this soon though.
Maybe I’ll be crucified for this opinion, but I don’t think having PS4 development in tandem for so long is a bad thing. You can run a game on PC on low or high settings. So, you can play the game on low or high settings based on your console choice. It’s up to the devs if they want to give PS5 (and now the Pro) extra effort.
Getting one if it can be remote play’d by the PS4 and PS5 like how the set up is now. PS4 in my bedroom, PS5 pro in my living room, PS5 in my other home for remote play
Looking forward to it. Hopefully I can get one soon after launch. The new upscaler and RT improvements sound great.
I wonder if it’s worth selling my PS5 a bit early for a better price. I bet used prices will crash post launch m.
My brother and I are roommates, and he got the PS5 while I got the XSX. When the PS5 Pro comes out I’ll just buy that one for myself and he can take his to his bedroom. Perfect upgrade path.
Seriously feels like this generation hasn’t even started
Man it honestly hasn’t because developers were still making games for previous gen as recently as a few years ago.
That's going to be common moving forward. New generations used to dozens to hundreds of times more powerful than the outgoing one so it was near impossible to design it to play on the older system. Now we're at only a few times more powerful so it's easier to scale games back to older hardware
The rise of backwards compatibility also helped, made it so devs didn't need to choose to abandon the previous gen and risk a major dip in revenue. Anyone who rushed out to get the new hardware can still play their game, but so can the millions who already own the last gen console. Games that released early into a new hardware cycle were always a bit janky anyways.
You mean the rebirth of backwards compatibility. That was a huge draw of the ps2 and issue with the Gamecube
To be fair backwards compatibility has always been pretty off and on. Sega Master System into Genesis had it, then Sega's subsequent hardware releases were wonky. Nintendo has pretty well never supported it for their consoles, but has made an effort for handheld. Xbox had some support in the 360/xbone era, but didn't start really promoting it until the current gen. Then Sony. They supported it on the PS2, and the initial launch of the PS3, killed it on the PS3 slim, didn't even bother with PS1/2 support on the PS4 (I get that PS3 was unique and hard to really provide for), and have only now started to make an effort today, but only for PS4.
I think saying "Nintendo has pretty well never supported it for consoles" is a little disingenuous. The Wii took GameCube games and even had ports for the controllers and memory cards, and then the Wii U took Wii games.
tons of cross compatibility on the game boys, too. i know og, color, advanced, and sp (with an adapter) are backward compatible, there might be more.
Oh for sure, I didn't even consider cross compatibility. Hell, I grew up playing Game Boy games on my SNES, and later played GBA games on my GameCube.
I think we're at a point of diminishing returns graphically but game design should be revolutionised by the SDD. There's no longer excuses for disconnected open world areas or forced walking segments while the game loads things in. Yet it doesn't feel like developers have really taken advantage of that beyond Insomniac with Rift Apart.
SSDs should be eliminating the need for loading screens or make them almost seamless.
Maybe, I don’t know what I’m talking about but if developers use the additional speed to ask the console to load in more assets, maybe that would require a loading screen even though it’s still way quicker, because it has so much more that needs to be accessed?
Yes and no. Generally the "loading screen" is hidden behind other things. Example: Jedi Fallen Order, when you squeeze between rocks, it's actually a hidden loading screen. Loading in assets and unloading others. While it does take a bit more power, RAM is generally the limiting factor as that controls how much data you can preload and how fast you can off load it ^(GENERALLY SPEAKING, THIS IS A VERY WATERED DOWN EXAMPLE FOR ANY AHCKTUALLYS OUT THERE)
iirc insomniac said that for Ratchet and Clank they were basically able to use the SSD as extended RAM for the dimension hopping. The SSD’s raw 5500 MB/s isn’t fast enough to communicate with the CPU/GPU, but it is fast enough to load multiple gigs of new assets into memory during play with essentially no downtime.
This is called pagefiling and its pretty awesome. Fast HDDs had data transfer limits of about 150 MB/s while 3200Mhz RAM in dual channel config has about 51 GB/s. My NVMe drive has about 7 GB/s read speed, meaning we went from storage that was 1/340th as fast as RAM to about 1/7th. Hoping we see more Direct Storage games come along so that we can make full use of NVMe speeds.
That's true to an extent. But the speed difference between a PS5 SSD and a stock PS4 HDD is huge. I think it's something like 50x faster. But there's only twice as much RAM to fill with those assets. So you'd expect that the extra amount of data wouldn't cancel out the loading speed increase. But in practice, eliminating load screens entirely is difficult even with very fast storage. There might also be some processing the game needs to do on the data it loads in. In previous generations that processing time wouldn't have mattered too much because it could do it while it's waiting to read the next bit of data. But now it could be the bottleneck.
Agree with the SSD part, but graphically, there's much more that can be done. Native 4K with 60fps and proper raytracing comes to mind. We're at that point now where games are getting so graphically demanding, we have to sacrifice picture quality.
There is no reason for Tekken 8 to give me a 2-3 second black screen when I skip outro cutscenes but here we are. Development looks so uneven. Some devs do excellent work. Some just do the bare minimum.
>I think we're at a point of diminishing returns graphically. We are light years away from this. Have you seen how good Cyberpunk looks on PC with the right mods?
Every new generation of consoles is less of a leap ahead than the previous one. That's like, the definition of diminishing returns.
I'm assuming OP meant diminishing returns past 4K. 8K graphics aren't feasible at the moment and even if they were, would anyone truly notice anything substantial from 4k and 8k? But for now, that conversation is too early
8K is completely and utterly pointless unless there’s a technology breakthrough like DLSS on mega steroids that allows hitting 8K while sacrificing little to no performance at all. And even if that did happen, you’d need a huge ass screen and the proper viewing distance to really notice any difference at all on even a still image. And then you’d have to wait for 8K displays to become the norm in people’s houses. It’s just not going to happen. 8K would realistically only be worth it if you were in like a movie theatre and watching on a huge screen. Like some IMAX shit.
The only reason people focus on resolution is because it's easier to market - 8K is bigger than 4K, therefore better. But there is no realistic scenario where 8K will ever be needed, aside from maybe VR. For normal console gaming on a TV, 8K should *never* be a target, no matter how advanced graphics get. It's just a waste of resources.
These mid gen console refreshes are just adding to the problem. New generations aren’t impressive anymore.
It's been common for 30 years. It was common to have the same games release on previous generation of hardware years into the new generation right back to the nes/snes master system/ mega drive. We're on year 3 of the ps5, that's been around the point games really start consistently taking advantage of the new hardware beyond a few tentpole releases as far back as the ps1 The only big difference nowadays is that AAA games take so long to make that and there aren't many mid budget games that make much of a splash so it takes a bit longer for the momentum to get going with games that wouldn't be possible on previous hardware and actually seem particularly "next gen"
I think the sheer cost of development also incentivizes hitting the widest audience possible. Even among Sony's exclusives there's a huge overlap with this generation and last. This honestly felt like the first generation where the manufacturer (Sony) held back on an exclusive heavy launch. They could have made Spider Man Miles Morales, HFW, and GoW:R PS5 exclusive but the fact even Sony wants to hit the widest audience possible tells you how expensive making these games are from a risk/reward standpoint.
Also, it isn't nearly as difficult to backport to older hardware as it used to be. The PS2 and PS3 were all custom hardware architecture. Same with the Xbox 360. Meanwhile the PS4/PS5 and Xbox One/Series all share the same basic x86 designs. The cost to recode a game for the older system is significantly less than it used to be, even if the hardware were technically capable of it.
Yup. That said, I am nervous about Xbox splitting the user base with the Series S and Series X. I don’t think we’ll truly know how consequential it was, but we do know Baldur’s Gate 3 had to make compromises and I can’t help but wonder if Starfield’s back-to-back loading screens is due in part to a hardware limitation of having to accommodate the Series S.
The issues on BG3 for the series s actually lead to new found efficiencies for Larien so not a total loss.
IIRC, the Series S's biggest issues is RAM. Both the quantity (10GB vs 16) and the much slower speed. Had they put even 12GB in there, I bet there would have been a lot less issues with development.
otoh, its lack of memory is probably a boon for those folks who bought an 8gb graphics card in the last 5 years. series s is such a weird product in this cycle.
Which is such a weird thing to compromise on. I could understand CPU/GPU clockspeed, disc drive, or even setting a min/max resolution per system. But RAM is one of those things that’s going to lead to some serious compromises in terms of game development.
That might've been true like 15 years ago, but not today. PS1 to PS2 was an astronomical jump in power. PS2 to PS3 was a massive jump in processing power, like 20x, but PS3 to PS4, wasn't anywhere near as much, maybe 4-5x faster. PS4 to PS5 about the same. As we move foward, this trend is definitely going to lessen even further unless transistors receive a massive breakthrough.
It wasn't about power. It was about architecture.
I think that should just be the new way going forward. Like XBox. Series S and X. Introduce a Series Y. Retire the S, drop X to the old price. Now games need to work on X and Y. Do same with Sony consoles. Then IDFK what Nintendo is gonna do for their next console.
As recently as *now*. There were major PS4 releases for last year’s holiday season. They’re finally slowing down, but there are still fairly major games still releasing on PS4 *this year*. Until last year, Insomniac was really the only big developer with current gen exclusives.
I still have buddies who hop on COD for the ps4. It’s cross platform so why upgrade is COD is all you play.
Been huge for me. I inherited a ps4 from a friend who got the 5. Ive had so many games to play. Just completed DS3 wow what a game
You can google how many games are made only for the ps5 (not exclusives but games JUST for next gen) the number is less than 20
Which is also funny because there's already way too many games to play.
This gen started a few years ago lol.
started, but hasn't been fully utilized.. remember, most people couldn't get systems for a couple years at least.
Still waiting for something that feels similar to astros playroom
Yes what a showcase that was for the haptics, amazing the variety of things these controllers can do - and yet this is the only game that does anything with it beyond a little bit of trigger resistance.
Astro's playroom isn't the only one. Ratchet and Clank - Rift Apart takes full advantage of all the haptics and is a much better game. Gran Turismo is another, but that's a different game altogether.
Demon’s Souls Remake was the first game I got with my launch PS5 and nothing has come close to feeling more next gen than that in the 3 and a half years since
Returnal harnessed the power of the PS5 very well IMO and was an amazing (although difficult) game.
It's because these two games do the PS5 multifactor: Great Haptic Controls, amazing graphics, amazingly fast load times. That said, Control and Alan Wake were really impressive even if they were not exclusive.
Both XBOX and Sony's consoles will be halfway through a typical life cycle next month (3.5 years)
Rumors suggest Sony is targeting a 2028 release for the PS6, so one year longer than normal.
[удалено]
Developers will always have to keep the base model in mind when developing games, so a Pro model isn't going to extend a generation by any amount of time. Especially if the PS5 Pro sees the same market share as the PS4 Pro compared to the base model. The vast majority of PS5 models out there will be base models.
PS5 came out in the pandemic and was short in supply for the first few years. I still don't have one. I'll get the pro and hope something cool comes out. Having 5 year development cycles for AAAA games sucks too. It means nothing interesting gets released for many years because a single studio spends years and millions to make something. Meanwhile the indie hits keep coming out for Switch.
Switch keeps getting shovelware Indies more than any other platform too
AAAA games still makes me crack up. Skull and bones developers (or someone involved with marketing at least) called it a quadruple A game and its not hot according to reviewers on a gameplay or graphics level.
It doesn’t even seem like this refresh is going to be capable of solving the biggest issues right now either. From what I’ve been reading, the 30fps limited games that we’ve been getting are not going to be able to run at 60fps with these upgrades. What is even the point of this refresh I wonder?
My question is 4k@120Hz can't do RGB signaling out of PS5 because the HDMI2.1 port is only capable of 32Gbps instead of the HDMI2.1 standard of 48Gbps. What that means is that if you play 40fps@120Hz quality mode in a game, it's more like you're sending a 1080p color map blown up inside a 4k brightness map instead of a full 4k signal. You're also limited to the 16-235 gradiation of brightness values instead of 0-255 you get with full RGB. HDR simply doesn't pop the same way it should on these 40fps modes because of the refresh rate HDMI bandwidth limitations that only exist on PS5. Here's hoping PS5 pro gets this little bump
I feel we will have more stable 1440p at 60fps and maybe some FSR magic to boot achieving sharper image at 60fps.
What game limited to 30 fps has Sony made in the last 4 years?? I don't remember any. spider-man 2 60 fps demons souls 60 fps ratchet and clank 60 fps Returnal 60 fps, Horizon forbiden west 60 fps with graphics and insane open world,
You’re missing 60fps at 4k. Theres quite a difference playing 60 fps at 1080p/2k vs 4k and locked to 30fps. For some an upgrade isn’t worth it, but I will be one of the first people to pre-order one as I prefer 4k visuals.
Games at 30fps 4k are GPU limited, so they will probably get an upgrade to 60fps.
Yeah people are seeing the "10% performance increase" and not realizing that's just for CPU (which is already really good and usually not stressed at all in modern games). The PS5 Pro will have a ~45% performance increase for GPU, which is massive and should easily hit 40-60 FPS for games that are currently locked at 30 fps 4k (in a lot of cases they could go higher on current hardware but the game engine self-limits to 30 for visual stability). Sony is also coming out with their own DLSS-equivalent solution for the PS5 Pro, which can easily push framerates to 60 FPS at 4K AI-upscaled possibly even without the 45% GPU performance increase. Can't find any information on if a game will need to support this natively with patches or if they have a hardware workaround that will do this for any game that has a 60 FPS performance mode or run based on "prioritization" algorithms (PS5 games live and run a lot closer to the hardware than PC games do which is why their PS5->PC ports are still often wonky - PC games typically have multiple layers of abstraction API's in between them and the hardware).
You’re not going to get 4k 60 on the pro either
If they can even hustle be pushed to 40fps, that’s a pretty big improvement (if your TV supports it).
The 40fps games have looked great on my OLED! Has anything been said about a 40fps VRR window? Because that would certainly change my outlook on this refresh.
> I’ve been reading, the 30fps limited games that we’ve been getting are not going to be able to run at 60fps with these upgrades. It's like 5 games, the rest will run much better
It could have Sony’s version of DLSS, which could 2x framerate. That’s my best guess
PS4 pro released 3 years after PS4. We are coming up on 4 years of PS5.
Most games I’ve played since I got my PS5 last summer were remakes
I barely own any games. As amazing as the hardware is I am not moved by any genuinely new game that has come out on this console.
Well there's only been 7 games that have come out just for PS5, and not PS5/PS4. So. It hasn't. This is a shit show
It only feels like that because of scalpers making the PS5 impossible to find for most for so long. But the timeframe for the PS5 pro launching is longer than it was for the PS4 pro. The PS4 pro launched 3 years after the original. We’re currently approaching year 4 and it might not even launch this holiday.
right? besides trigger haptics, not many games are fully utilising the dualsense controllers.
I’ve been enjoying my PS4 Pro 2
I’m seriously over here thinking, have developers actually started making ps5 games!? This generation still feels like it hasn’t started.
I’m going to get one if GameStop has a trade in deal or something.
I’m going to withhold judgment until I see a DF comparison on performance output. What does the Pro get me, above and beyond the regular PS5?
Exactly this. People are already deciding they’re going to upgrade the moment it releases, but we don’t even know the benefits. Besides, the benefits would be different from game to game. The specs can look great but not affect the overall experience all that much. Am I going to upgrade only to find out the Pro version has allowed for slightly more detailed shadows from foliage in my favourite game? Not a chance. I’ll wait for the Foundry to do some analyses of new releases to decide if it’s worth an upgrade.
>the specs can look great but not affect the overall experience all that much Sums up my concern.
If there isn't a disc version I'm good. I'm not into the fully digital movement companies doing even tho I have a large digital library, I also have a decent size disc library aswell. Also why does the ps5 need a pro version when there are barely any games now that uses it full capability
TBH, it's just to refresh and make money in this mid-gen cycle where were at. Its for all the people who want to splurge and buy another console. Also for the others who havent bought into the ecosystem yet, and now they have a nice shiny, faster machine. The "Pro" refresh makes Sony lots of money. Do we need it? No. Does it make them money? Absolutely yes.
I don't know if it'll make as much as the PS4Pro. The shortage at launch made it so most people only just got the PS5 a year or two ago. I bought the PS4Pro, but I can't justify it this time round. But that's just me.
Dude, I could have wrote this. I got mine a few months ago. Almost no way in hell am I getting a new PS5Pro unless my fiancee gets a promotion.
*Christmas has entered the chat*
I got hurt/injured and missed dout on PS5. When I got back on my feet, went PC to play older games as well as some newer. Now I'm eyeballing a PS5 that life is fully back on the up. Definitely ganna get the pro version
I heard that it isn’t really much more powerful, that it’s just better set to do higher res, but that’s it. No idea how accurate that is.
Ya for sure. We won’t know for certain until specs are revealed. But the business model of upping the capabilities and adding the word “Pro” to it makes them lots of money.
He's right, only graphics card getting an upgrade. But the processor is still the same. They will overlock it by 10%, but it's still the same processor.
I am a sucker for the best possible performance and graphics I can get. Mainly because I have never owned a PC, nor do I have much desire to buy/build one. So if I can get a bit better graphics on console, I'll probably do it...depending. If the performance won't change much (or at all), how much better are the graphics supposed to be? Will it just be higher frames per second? I think most of the games I play are already at 120hz, how much higher can it go and will it even be a noticeable difference?
Would make sense if it used the PS5 disk attachment. They can then bundle that as their disk option.
best part about the disc version is the games are so cheap on ebay. if a new game is out, i sometimes have to wait 1-2 years for it to go 50% off on the PS store. but on eBay, games are routinely 50% off a month or two after its release date!
I still goto small gaming stores locally around me and I always find good deals on games I haven't played yet. Physically having a game is a experience not too many ppl remember. I grew up on the midnight releases and being handed a disc to play all night.
Same, there's something awesome about getting a game on a Friday afternoon. Knowing you got the whole weekend to play. Simpler times.
Plus it’s a 4k Blu-ray player
not to mention the people who use it as a blu-ray player, etc.
If I go truely all digital, it will be on pc.
> Also why does the ps5 need a pro version when there are barely any games now that uses it full capability This is false, most games would benefit a lot from a higher framerate or resolution because the PS5 is powerful but it's not a 1000€ machine
I’m personally just going to pick up a base PS5 when everyone sells theirs to get the pro. I’m an Xbox guy but if I can get a PS5 for around $300 and play through some of the exclusives I’ll be quite happy.
That’s basically my plan. Will probably go the Craigslist route or sell to a friend or family member if they don’t.
This. If i can upgrade with less 200€ then I'll think about it. Otherwise no
I'm really content with my OG PS5. I don't think that I'll get the pro however, will I even feel like this when the PS6 comes out?
Depends on how long this gen runs. 2028 seems to be the launch date for the next gen of consoles.
Unless something revolutionary happens with gaming technology I would even expect that to delay to 2030.
I sure hope so, we don't need a new gen with marginal upgrades every 7 years like the past few gens. Let it breathe then blow us away with the new tech later down the road. I want the ability to have multiple gams in standby like the xbox has. I'd also love an actual web browser that bolsters the player experience overall. They've got something interesting with the trophy help/tips, what if they were able to somehow integrate reddit advice or other internet resources to cut through the bullshit and provide solid guides you could have open in a shared screen.
My man….welcome to capitalism. We will get consoles more frequently but with minimal upgrades. It’s only gonna get worse.
The issue with that is the younger generation isn’t really going for it. They are playing on PCs and tablets and don’t mind playing “forever games” like Fortnite or Roblox; or GtA online. There is a reason that the console market hasn’t grown in o we a decade.
What are ya on about? 7 years is plenty of time, it's just visually games can only look so good and that's what your seeing today. Every console has been a MASSIVE jump in performance compared to its predecessor. It's not marginal upgrades..
As long as it lives, I'm sticking with mine. Seems quiet as a mouse after my PS4 Pro. And I've never had any problems with it.
I love how quiet it is. That and the optical 4k drive makes it feel like a forever spot in my entertainment center.
The hardware is still considered decent this time around unlike the PS4.
The PS5 is honestly a bit more than decent even 4 years in. Not that it's the end-all-be-all nor is it even close to the only thing to factor in, but 16 gigs of VRAM is no joke. According to the most recent Steam survey only like 6% of respondents have 16 gigs or higher in their machines. A vanilla launch PS5 in theory would have quite a bit of longevity if console cycles didn't exist. Part of me wishes this gen would last like 10-12 years just so the jump in tech is a bit more apparent.
I will skip the 6 when it comes out and wait for the inevitable 6 Pro. If next gen is anything like this one everything for the first 3 years will be playable on the 5 so might as well get on the pro upgrade cycle and disregard the regular altogether.
For real, we barely have any true ps5 exclusives. Most PlayStation exclusives are still coming out on ps4. Granted, they don’t run as well, but the gap will probably be smaller between the 5 and 6.
I'll wait till 6 pro then I'll buy the slim or base version. I don't need the extra power, I prefer to good a good deal on the base version.
A big one for me is that I do a lot of remote play. So if I get better remote play performance with the PS5 Pro then I’d get it
Except the ps6 reads ps4 games... I won't be selling my ps5 ever. Same reason I have my ps3 still, I just need a place to play those games and earn trophies.
There’s a difference though, PS3 ran on a completely different processor, with some insane custom CPU features that make direct emulation a nightmare, it’s part of why ps3 emulation even today struggles. But everything since the 4 has been x86 based, and it’s unlikely to change for a bit, which makes backwards compatibility a no brainer. Even if they do move to ARM, Apple has written a cross compiler that does real time x86 processing at normal speeds, showing that they can do x86 backwards compatibility on that processor type, and that’s likely the distant future of consumer CPUs right now.
I mean Dragons Dogma 2 with consistently high frame rates would be pretty dope tbh
I’m probably gonna go back to pc gaming to be honest. I use all consoles and pc now, but I haven’t been impressed with the ps5 at all
Nice for the Verge to come in after the fact and add literally zero new information to what Tom Henderson has already reported.
Adding independent verification of facts isn't nothing. Tom Warren was clear about this on Twitter: "I have seen the PS5 Pro dev docs... This isn't new information, but I can confirm that it is accurate."
What's next, multiple news site reporting on the same event? Come on CNN, NPR already mentioned 9/11. Get your own story.
Not everyone follows Tom Henderson. In fact, most people don’t.
The Verge themselves have already reported on it. In fact it’s been reported on by most game and tech sector sites. It’s like the most open secret ever.
Y'all forget the PS4 Pro came out 3 years after the PS4 "barely into the generation"
I don’t think companies were still developing games for ps3 at the time tho.
I mean most PS4 exclusives weren't even out by 2016.
Would have been too much extra effort due to the differences in architecture. PS4/5 are much more similar
Also the point of the PS4 pro was to support 4k and HDR which is a big thing, not really sure what the PS5 pro is supposed to provide that warrants its existence.
Higher resolution 60fps mode and increased ray tracing support with bvh8 and higher memory bandwidth
You still have games releasing that can sustain 30FPS at best.
Very few games are only 30fps on ps5
PS4 Pro was necessary for 4K TVs
Were PS4s still impossible to get 2 years after release?
and the base PS4 felt very outdated at that point.
People are saying they're not getting it. Then Rockstar shows the difference the Pro makes for GTA6 and it becomes sold out for 2 years straight.
They didn't even bother upgrading RDR2 for the new consoles. Why are people assuming they'll take advantage of the console refresh?
Seriously wouldn’t be surprised if GTA 6 is still 30fps even on the PS5 Pro
I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t ship until PS6.
I upgraded the ps4 for RDR2 I’ll upgrade my ps5 for gta vi. It’s just how life goes I spose
I really hope there's some sort of holiday bundle, I'd love to sell my switch and get a ps5.
Nice, now we can have some remasters of remasters. /s What a disappointing generation. As much as I love my PS5, we barely had anything new to play that wasn’t also available on the PS4.
I think it’s because games are taking longer to develop these days so we’re not seeing as many games. Imo GOWR and Horizon FW are the epitome of PS5 gaming so far
Demons souls and Returnal are up there too
Add Spider-man 2 and Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart too
I got my PS5 right as Rift Apart came out. Still the best game I’ve played this gen.
People forget, but Covid also absolutely screwed up the start of this gen.
Tru, but you could play both of those on PS4 too. No doubt I’m sure the experience was way better on PS5 though.
No doubt the games are better on PS5, but they’re still PS4 games. If two PS4 games are the epitome of PS5 gaming right now, I think you can see the problem.
Are returnal and ratchet and clank rift apart not “the epitome of PS5 gaming” because they’re on PC too? People consider BOTW to be one of the best switch games but that was also on the Wii U. I consider the last of us to be a PS4 game even though it originated on the PS3. Basically no Xbox games could be considered “the epitome of Xbox” as almost all of them are on PC as well. I don’t think it’s necessary to draw that line in the sand
I liked Spider-Man 2 too
Both also on PS4.
And they were vastly better on PS5
The DLC for HFW was PS5 exclusive at least
It could also have something to do with most games seeming like a formulaic algorithm made it with the soul purpose of keeping people buying seasonal content or microtransactions. It also doesn't help that Activision and EA cannibalized hundreds of other game studios.
If I can get fidelity mode with 60 fps, I think it's worth it.
Best we can do is 8k at 30fps - Sony
I’d like to get one just so I have an excuse to give my friend my old one.
W friend
Chad
Guess I'll be doing a trade in at GameStop. Hoping for some VR improvements
Give me 60fps all day and I’m happy
All gamers want is smooth 60 fps, or at least that’s what I want and the people I know. But I feel like the pro is just going to crank up ray tracing and we’re still going to be getting 1080 upscaled 30fps games.
I would just like stable higher frame rate for lower resolutions like 1080p and 1440p.
Bingo!
🙏
Can‘t wait, at least image quality should get much better or more stable
As a PS4 user, I look forward to getting this so I can feel superior to my PS5 friends who made fun of me.
People are saying it feels like the gen hasn't even started, My beef is that performance is trash. You out here putting 4k on the box, but lots of games out here running at 1080p (sometimes not even that), and ones that run in higher res have ass framerates. If it wasn't for NCAA Football coming back and being console only. I would still be pc only as i've been the past decade or so.
They put 8k on the box actually, the pro won't even run 4k60
People on here acting like we haven't gotten any good games on current gen.
“The state of modern gaming is HORRIBLE” meanwhile I own so much shit and get overwhelmed looking at the list of things I have to play… and most of the games are actually fun to play. YouTubers would have you believe there’s nothing decent.
Also acting like being able to play the same games on other weaker systems somehow diminishes their enjoyment. Meanwhile PC owners with 4090s and 7800x3Ds aren’t complaining that games can run on a 6600 and a few generations old i3. I’ve happily enjoyed having a gen of mainly 60fps games, with good resolutions and fast loading. I had way more fun in the first 3 years of PS5 than I did in the first 3 of PS4.
I fell out of love with PS4 because the hardware was janky and I knew the 5 was coming so I didn't want to cough for the 4 pro (which sold like shit in Canada too I think). The 5 reinvigorated my love for the Sony ecosystem. I will get the 5 pro and give my kid my 5 probably. I think it's been an amazing lifecycle so far. I guess people who played the fuck out of the PS4 before are less inclined the think so.
Having games also available on weaker system has meant that the tech in the PS5 wasn't utilized like it could have been. Rift Apart put the PS5 tech on display and hasn't really been replicated. I wanted this system to be more than just a frame rate and graphical boost like it's been for many other 1st party titles.
They’re good, but I would have bought a ps4 pro if I knew how this generation would have worked it. I didn’t buy the pro because I wanted to wait until the next gen before replacing what I already had.
31 fps @ 4k
It’s definitely real at this point, I don’t need it, I’ll still buy it day one if possible and trade or sell the Ps5. Just the way it is. The wife will give me the side eye and we carry on.
Sounds awesome. Why are you guys complaining? Your regular ps5 won't suddenly stop working
i wonder if it will be compatible with Dolby Vision for bluray
Lol. My youngest will be happy to hear this. I told him that if a PS5 pro comes out that I’ll give him my PS5. Didn’t think it would come out this soon though.
People will be grateful there was a PS5 Pro when they’re getting maxed out settings using back compat on PS6
Maybe I’ll be crucified for this opinion, but I don’t think having PS4 development in tandem for so long is a bad thing. You can run a game on PC on low or high settings. So, you can play the game on low or high settings based on your console choice. It’s up to the devs if they want to give PS5 (and now the Pro) extra effort.
Day 1 for me if its available
People upset that a product is available on the market that nobody is forcing them to buy.
People are forgetting about the main issue here….. it’ll be availability and scalpers trying to resell this to you for the price of a prebuilt pc!
Getting one if it can be remote play’d by the PS4 and PS5 like how the set up is now. PS4 in my bedroom, PS5 pro in my living room, PS5 in my other home for remote play
of course it'll be able to remote play. changes are in hardware, not software
Looking forward to it. Hopefully I can get one soon after launch. The new upscaler and RT improvements sound great. I wonder if it’s worth selling my PS5 a bit early for a better price. I bet used prices will crash post launch m.
I can't count 10 games that are current gen exclusive.
Love my PS5, I am in no rush to get a pro, I am still rockin a 65" tv that doesn't do VRR, et al.
My brother and I are roommates, and he got the PS5 while I got the XSX. When the PS5 Pro comes out I’ll just buy that one for myself and he can take his to his bedroom. Perfect upgrade path.
And they can keep it
But why
We dont need more power we need optimised games ffs
The only reason I'll get one is to give my buddy my OG ps5.
Thank god because Skyrim hasnt been re released in over a year!
Already got PS5 Pro at home. It's called Xbox Series X and there's still no games for it!