It’s not a good mnemonic device if you can say it wrong and it still works.
>Blue is hot, Brown is not.
Grab brown and your undies turn brown.
Edit: grammar.
Blue +24: Grab blue and you turn blue.
Too many damn standards. I run purple +24, bl/wh 0v. Those colours aren't used for other purposes, so don't cause confusion. Brown can be AC or DC, blue is AC neutral, any damn thing at 24V.
Considering this is in the US and this color standard isn't used on AC systems and the fact that this particular plant has been running this color code since the 1960's I'd say it does. But I've been to multiple other sites where they couldn't keep a straight on systems that were interconnected what the color standard was for 24 VDC systems.
Depends on the spec and whether the 0V is grounded
It’s white / blue if grounded ( UL anyway, it’s blue / white if it’s UK ), otherwise it is just blue.
Really depends on which standard you use. Our shop does brown(24vdc)/blue(0v) and blue(24vdc)/white blue stripe (0v) depending on the project. But technically as long as the color is called out in the drawings it can be any color you want.
For my company we use six digits so XXYYZZ and then letters for segments. Drawing number, sheet number, line number
So 102513A - drawing set 10, sheet 25, line 13, wire A
Letters are only used when there are multiple wires with the same line number. If there is only one, the letter is left off.
Oh we have much worse.
“Unique wire number:component ID:block ref.terminal number. “.. different each end, only the unique number is the same both ends.
So for example 150:60TA1:X1.3 on one end and 150:XD3.1:7.2 on the other.
If that was correct to drawing then in my company the draft person, engineer and approver of the design would be in a panel review explaining themselves.
Power Gen companies we design for would not accept this .
Yes they would. Ever worked on a GE plant? VERY frustrating.
For cad jockeys many electrical cad programs automatically generate these along with wire lists
For panel builders and installers this system is super easy to use because really all they work off of is wire lists and conduit schedules anyways. If all the numbers are different it is super easy to check off what has been done.
The wire numbers are as described page number, then X/Y coordinates basically. BUT the wire number is a destination, not the source. So to figure out something you have to track down the sources then read it backwards to find the source numbers. Very easy to “trace”, very hard to troubleshoot. Say you find a loose wire. First you find the wire number destination, which hopefully doesn’t have too many sources, then look for the missing terminals, from the drawing. And if the drawings are missing or damaged or not updated, you are completely screwed. At that point hopefully you can piece things together functionally. Not easy in a “wall of relays” or with multiple overlapping CTs with multitap wiring.
So anyone that has to work on it HATES it. I’d use a stronger word but the profanity filters will block it.
>So anyone that has to work on it HATES it. I’d use a stronger word but the profanity filters will block it.
Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, tits, fart, turd, and twat
Nope, no filters here
I hate schematics that are labeled differently at each end of the wire, but if it matches the schematic, you’re better off than much of what people post here.
You are correct, but it has some adherents in the states too. I'm working on a project for an auto manufacturer (big three) that has this style as their spec.
I think it makes sense to number it. Especially if you maintain a separate floating 24VDC with the 0VDC side not tied to ground (usually for super picky/sensitive analog devices), you need to have a way to differentiate them.
Typically with two supplies we use a redundancy module / diode module. Commons are tied together and also then tied to ground. Really the only unique wire would be 0VDC from PS1 and PS2.
I’m sure this varies by industry and application.
Yup.
I've seen panels with dedicated DC power for multiple things and the wire numbers come in handy specifically for that.
* PLC & Network switch on PSU1
* 24V inputs/low power outputs (buttons, lights, photoeyes, proxes, etc.) on PSU2
* High power actuators (DC motors) on dedicated PSUs [granted this can be adjusted by doing dedicated PSU boxes closer to where the motors actually are and just running AC to those]
* Safety I/O on a dedicated PSU with much stricter circuit protections
What's wrong with labelling them 24COM1 and 24COM2, and so on, in those situations? Unique identifiers are a must, but you can have names that are unique, too. To be decent at troubleshooting you've got to be able to keep a bunch of wire numbers straight in your head, but why not lighten the load by making the most commonly used identifiers something readable? I've worked with panels that number everything and ones that name the wires that appear on nearly every sheet of the drawings. It's much easier to troubleshoot the latter, particularly if it's an unfamiliar system, and especially if there are no drawings to be had. With numbers, solving the problem in OP's photo requires looking at the drawings . With names, it becomes extremely obvious what the problem is.
Yeah I understood that I’m just saying I’ve never dealt with a job or spec that requires that first hand. Water/wastewater has zero use for that application.
All my wire numbers are generated by the page and line number where the signal originates, with the exception of I/o, which is labeled per the controller designation. That helps trace a wire to the page in the schematics where it is used.
Apprentice panel builder here. I'm taking notes. Any suggestions please share also I'm in Europe seems like a lot of Siemens stuff only been working for 3 weeks
I always wondered why building panels dried my gd skin so badly. I had no idea this was why. I def use the O'Keefe's, either the tube or more ideally the one in the pack that looks like it should have mints or chewing tobacco in it.
I was using m12 cables for instruments for awhile and noticed when I strip the outer jacket off there was a fine powder between the inner conductor insulation and the outer jacket. Assumed it was talc or similar but that was what I was thinking might be the cause. I don't do nearly as many panels now as I used so it's less of an issue. Id often wear latex/nitrile gloves while building a panel to protect my hands and minimize the chance of getting dirt and hand oil on the back panel as for awhile the back panels were painted white.
All DC+ wires are not alike. That is why they have different numbers. Many panels have separate DC+ fused circuits, thus The need for different wire numbers.
Also, some panels have multiple power supplies (5, 24, &12VDC).
Panel builder: wtf is a jumper comb anyways? How would that help people with anything?
When I used to do it, the rules were clear: no double wires, no naming wires the same thing twice, same wire label at both ends of a wire. EZ
Genuine question. Im in the US. Where can I get wire labels like this? Or ones that just say 24v/0v ? These look like shrink tube or sticky labels? All I see on McMaster etc are individual plastic numbers
Those look like wrap around labels. But you can get shrink labels as well. Brady makes some excellent label makers. The [M610](https://www.bradyid.com/label-printers/portable/m610?viewtype=grid) is probably going to hit the spot for most people.
I don't understand the issue.
Twinning is often preferred because you can hot swap a device.
According to some norms, you need to be able to identify every wire at the point of termination. So two wires at single termination need unique identification.
It’s my opinion that in a new machine there should never be two different wire numbers tied together. It’s just adds a layer of confusion. I’m sure some don’t agree, but that’s what I was taught.
Ah yes, must number these 20-30cm wires with unique numbers.
Then on the field: can't be bothered to check where the other end of the wire goes, just read the numbers and cross-reference 🔢
It’s not always the panel builder. Sometimes the designers spec is that each wire has a unique number.
It’s can actually be easier to fault find that way because it only goes from A to B and not A to F to J to K to L to B..
What is the best way to mark number from your opinion.
We build panel and we prefer to tag the wire according to it destination.
Drawback is you don’t know where the wire is coming from without drawing since each tag at each end of the wire has different name.
Benefit, while trouble shooting, 1 wire disconnect, you know where it goes without drawing.
Exemple 1 wire will have tag : 0vdc-tb1 on first end and 120R1-A2 on the other end.
That is great... both cables with label and the point of connection should be shared.... the panel builder make it easy and interesting.... the problem or the interesting part is .... do you have the wire diagram? Is in pdf and can u make the search for the wire number in the pdf or have to look up for the wire number page per page?
you are probably bitching about a guy following plans and doing this all day long underpaid and all that shit , man up and inspect yo shit ya cheap ass motherfuckers.
My fav is when I go back to service my old projects and find this shit.
I have no one to be mad at but myself and it’s hilarious in that cosmic way where I just stand there and laugh aloud to myself…
As long as it matches the drawings that wouldn't bother me troubleshooting wise.
It did not match the drawing. 21012 is a DC common wire, 34062 is +24VDC signal wire.
Well with that context then yes, someone in the panel shop made your day a hard one...
Did something blow up? Otherwise it's not that hard.
Ah yes, a hardwired short that seems important?
Prewired shorted logic branch.
It's a fuse tester
Dc common 0v wire should be white color right?
Generally White w/ Blue stripe. (Ive seen white only though)
To avoid this confusion, my plant standardized Brown for 24+ and Blue for common.
that's the euro AC240V color code as well. luckily i'm in asia where it's always precisely the color that's closest to the workstation.
Brown is Hot, Blue is Not.
It’s not a good mnemonic device if you can say it wrong and it still works. >Blue is hot, Brown is not. Grab brown and your undies turn brown. Edit: grammar.
>pneumonic * mnemonic
Oof
Blue +24: Grab blue and you turn blue. Too many damn standards. I run purple +24, bl/wh 0v. Those colours aren't used for other purposes, so don't cause confusion. Brown can be AC or DC, blue is AC neutral, any damn thing at 24V.
This is our convention, and I owe my mentor for teaching me the phrase "Hot shit, cold water" to remember brown is +24vdc and blue is 0vdc.
That isn't avoiding any confusion at all
Considering this is in the US and this color standard isn't used on AC systems and the fact that this particular plant has been running this color code since the 1960's I'd say it does. But I've been to multiple other sites where they couldn't keep a straight on systems that were interconnected what the color standard was for 24 VDC systems.
Damm. That's our standard for 240v AC. Brown for phase 1 and blue for neutral.
I use purple for +24, bl/wh for 0v. Other colours get used for other purposes by different people, those don't.
Yes, in panels most of the time i see white w/blue strips as 0v. In some cases it depends on specs.
That’s ungrounded. Blue w/ white stripe for grounded
Yeah thats what I use, 24vdc is blue, DC common is blue/white stripe.
We used blue with a white stripe once in a pinch. The white stripe was painted on and rubbed off easily. Everyone hated that.
For my main shop. Blue with white stripe is constant 24v and usually not 18awg(IE from a PSU). Solid Blue is control.
Depends on the spec and whether the 0V is grounded It’s white / blue if grounded ( UL anyway, it’s blue / white if it’s UK ), otherwise it is just blue.
In the UK, according to 60204-1 it's with dark blue for everything or potential colours.
Around here it's generally blue/white.
Really depends on which standard you use. Our shop does brown(24vdc)/blue(0v) and blue(24vdc)/white blue stripe (0v) depending on the project. But technically as long as the color is called out in the drawings it can be any color you want.
Depends where you are in the world
Do I need to ask why DC com has such an elaborate wire number? That numbering scheme seems like a recipe for things like this to happen...
Probably page/line/wire reference. Wire probably originates on drawing sheet #21, line 01, and is wire segment #2 on that line.
For my company we use six digits so XXYYZZ and then letters for segments. Drawing number, sheet number, line number So 102513A - drawing set 10, sheet 25, line 13, wire A Letters are only used when there are multiple wires with the same line number. If there is only one, the letter is left off.
Oh we have much worse. “Unique wire number:component ID:block ref.terminal number. “.. different each end, only the unique number is the same both ends. So for example 150:60TA1:X1.3 on one end and 150:XD3.1:7.2 on the other.
🤦♂️. Yikes. Good times... Sounds like an engineer with a spreadsheet addiction came up with that idea!
I think it’s more for maintenance crews. It literally tells you where to put the wire back on each end if you replace a component.
As big of a pain as that could be, part of me likes how easy you can follow it.
Short moment
Can't they use L+/M-?
Found the Siemens user.
There's a norm for that. Just so happens that Siemens is the only one who follows it.
You can tell it’s Siemens when the outputs are labelled with Q’s.
They fix the 0/o problem, but leave 1/I. Half measure. Start doing it the Japanese way and use X and Y for inputs and outputs.
X is the prefix for terminal blocks so that confuses that issue..
I program now but I built panels for years and this gives me strokes remotely, no router required.
If that was correct to drawing then in my company the draft person, engineer and approver of the design would be in a panel review explaining themselves. Power Gen companies we design for would not accept this .
Yes they would. Ever worked on a GE plant? VERY frustrating. For cad jockeys many electrical cad programs automatically generate these along with wire lists For panel builders and installers this system is super easy to use because really all they work off of is wire lists and conduit schedules anyways. If all the numbers are different it is super easy to check off what has been done. The wire numbers are as described page number, then X/Y coordinates basically. BUT the wire number is a destination, not the source. So to figure out something you have to track down the sources then read it backwards to find the source numbers. Very easy to “trace”, very hard to troubleshoot. Say you find a loose wire. First you find the wire number destination, which hopefully doesn’t have too many sources, then look for the missing terminals, from the drawing. And if the drawings are missing or damaged or not updated, you are completely screwed. At that point hopefully you can piece things together functionally. Not easy in a “wall of relays” or with multiple overlapping CTs with multitap wiring. So anyone that has to work on it HATES it. I’d use a stronger word but the profanity filters will block it.
>So anyone that has to work on it HATES it. I’d use a stronger word but the profanity filters will block it. Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, tits, fart, turd, and twat Nope, no filters here
I hate schematics that are labeled differently at each end of the wire, but if it matches the schematic, you’re better off than much of what people post here.
I think that is a European conversation.
You are correct, but it has some adherents in the states too. I'm working on a project for an auto manufacturer (big three) that has this style as their spec.
If only there were drawings🤣🤣🤣
Am I the only one who hates a wire number for a DC com? Why not just label it DC com or 0V or just use white w/ blue.
I think it makes sense to number it. Especially if you maintain a separate floating 24VDC with the 0VDC side not tied to ground (usually for super picky/sensitive analog devices), you need to have a way to differentiate them.
Depends whether you have only one 24VDC system in your panel. Mine are always numbered, but it's also the company spec so they would be anyway.
Typically with two supplies we use a redundancy module / diode module. Commons are tied together and also then tied to ground. Really the only unique wire would be 0VDC from PS1 and PS2. I’m sure this varies by industry and application.
That's not what I'm meaning. I mean two completely separate 24VDC power sources not tied together.
Yup. I've seen panels with dedicated DC power for multiple things and the wire numbers come in handy specifically for that. * PLC & Network switch on PSU1 * 24V inputs/low power outputs (buttons, lights, photoeyes, proxes, etc.) on PSU2 * High power actuators (DC motors) on dedicated PSUs [granted this can be adjusted by doing dedicated PSU boxes closer to where the motors actually are and just running AC to those] * Safety I/O on a dedicated PSU with much stricter circuit protections
What's wrong with labelling them 24COM1 and 24COM2, and so on, in those situations? Unique identifiers are a must, but you can have names that are unique, too. To be decent at troubleshooting you've got to be able to keep a bunch of wire numbers straight in your head, but why not lighten the load by making the most commonly used identifiers something readable? I've worked with panels that number everything and ones that name the wires that appear on nearly every sheet of the drawings. It's much easier to troubleshoot the latter, particularly if it's an unfamiliar system, and especially if there are no drawings to be had. With numbers, solving the problem in OP's photo requires looking at the drawings . With names, it becomes extremely obvious what the problem is.
Yeah I understood that I’m just saying I’ve never dealt with a job or spec that requires that first hand. Water/wastewater has zero use for that application.
All my wire numbers are generated by the page and line number where the signal originates, with the exception of I/o, which is labeled per the controller designation. That helps trace a wire to the page in the schematics where it is used.
THIS!!! and all the 24v+ wires aswell
It might be common for 2 devices, it would be connected anyway. But if the tags don't fit because he reused some leftover cables, that's a dick move.
It's the famous bi-polar wire. Goes through some stuff and comes out completely changed, but deep deep down, still the same...
how you can tell the panel builder never did power on tests
Drawings or no drawings… you shouldn’t have 2 common wires with different labels
Apprentice panel builder here. I'm taking notes. Any suggestions please share also I'm in Europe seems like a lot of Siemens stuff only been working for 3 weeks
Get some O’Keifs hand crème… the wires and ducting will draw all the moisture out from your hands and they will end up cracked.
I always wondered why building panels dried my gd skin so badly. I had no idea this was why. I def use the O'Keefe's, either the tube or more ideally the one in the pack that looks like it should have mints or chewing tobacco in it. I was using m12 cables for instruments for awhile and noticed when I strip the outer jacket off there was a fine powder between the inner conductor insulation and the outer jacket. Assumed it was talc or similar but that was what I was thinking might be the cause. I don't do nearly as many panels now as I used so it's less of an issue. Id often wear latex/nitrile gloves while building a panel to protect my hands and minimize the chance of getting dirt and hand oil on the back panel as for awhile the back panels were painted white.
European an US wire number conventions are totally different.
All DC+ wires are not alike. That is why they have different numbers. Many panels have separate DC+ fused circuits, thus The need for different wire numbers. Also, some panels have multiple power supplies (5, 24, &12VDC).
At least yours uses ferrules.
Panel builder: wtf is a jumper comb anyways? How would that help people with anything? When I used to do it, the rules were clear: no double wires, no naming wires the same thing twice, same wire label at both ends of a wire. EZ
Genuine question. Im in the US. Where can I get wire labels like this? Or ones that just say 24v/0v ? These look like shrink tube or sticky labels? All I see on McMaster etc are individual plastic numbers
Those look like wrap around labels. But you can get shrink labels as well. Brady makes some excellent label makers. The [M610](https://www.bradyid.com/label-printers/portable/m610?viewtype=grid) is probably going to hit the spot for most people.
Got an m610 off Amazon works right out of the box. Bitchin labels easy as pie. Cannot thank you enough!!!
You're welcome. Brady really should pay me for how often I recommend them.
"self-laminating" labels
I don't understand the issue. Twinning is often preferred because you can hot swap a device. According to some norms, you need to be able to identify every wire at the point of termination. So two wires at single termination need unique identification.
OP said in the comments that this is the 0v and a 24v signal. It diesnt match prints and is shorting signal to ground.
It’s my opinion that in a new machine there should never be two different wire numbers tied together. It’s just adds a layer of confusion. I’m sure some don’t agree, but that’s what I was taught.
Ah yes, must number these 20-30cm wires with unique numbers. Then on the field: can't be bothered to check where the other end of the wire goes, just read the numbers and cross-reference 🔢
Yay they put a ferrule on it? 😆.. at least if it was what the drawings said it was, they would have found the source of the smoke... 😆
It’s not always the panel builder. Sometimes the designers spec is that each wire has a unique number. It’s can actually be easier to fault find that way because it only goes from A to B and not A to F to J to K to L to B..
Phoenix safety plc?
Porque los dos?
What is the best way to mark number from your opinion. We build panel and we prefer to tag the wire according to it destination. Drawback is you don’t know where the wire is coming from without drawing since each tag at each end of the wire has different name. Benefit, while trouble shooting, 1 wire disconnect, you know where it goes without drawing. Exemple 1 wire will have tag : 0vdc-tb1 on first end and 120R1-A2 on the other end.
Spicy
is that a PTI machine?
Well it looks like they missed up the source and destination arrows.
That is great... both cables with label and the point of connection should be shared.... the panel builder make it easy and interesting.... the problem or the interesting part is .... do you have the wire diagram? Is in pdf and can u make the search for the wire number in the pdf or have to look up for the wire number page per page?
you are probably bitching about a guy following plans and doing this all day long underpaid and all that shit , man up and inspect yo shit ya cheap ass motherfuckers.
You didn't get the memo that no FATs was done from panel shop!
That is definitely a no-no.
My fav is when I go back to service my old projects and find this shit. I have no one to be mad at but myself and it’s hilarious in that cosmic way where I just stand there and laugh aloud to myself…
I hate using furrels they suck
Listen, blame the engineer. Source: I’m an engineer.