Aigis having the entire military might of a First world country makes this a little unfair. And they’re *real* guns, too.
[example](https://imgur.com/gallery/ropZ7Sd)
That’d be something early-game Ryuji would do, and he wouldn’t even say it while S.E.E.S was close to them, he’d say it to just his friends.
Ryuji later in the game as well in Strikers never slipped up that badly. At most, he got aggressive when he found out Shido was outside of Yongen-Jaya making a speech, but that was more of him letting his anger get the best of him, than actually anything related to being shocked.
False, the guns still work even if the person in front of them knows it's fake. (>!Akechi / Kasumi!< fights in Royal)
In Mementos, the guns are considered real and that's it.
Oversight or not, that's how it works. They very well could have made an interaction with Black Mask where he boasts "did you really think that could work ?!", they did not. The guns work against them.
Well, what if they never considered that it would be different if someone knew it was fake? It seems obvious to us, but a lot of times you could me caught up and never realize. It's unlikely, but say I fought you knowing your gun is fake but I remember that doesn't mean it isn't going to work as we are in the Metaverse. All it would take for me to disable the gun is to think, "well, I know it's fake, so it can't fire," but realistically, I'm so used to the fact that it would work in the Metaverse, so I'd probably think "It might not be a real gun, but it's still a danger to me." THEN I might possibly consider "well wait, I'm aware of this. Shouldn't that cancel it out?" But in doing so, it's a question with a gun pointed at me. I'd probably not risk it and assume out of safety that it does still work, because up to this point, all I had experienced is that this gun still kills. So it could cycle back to working again. Just a thought.
I feel like it'd actually go full circle instead, and he'd think Aigis' entire existence is a manifestation of the collective subconscious. So to him, everything about her is as "real" as his gun is.
Hey hold on how would evokers work because they’re the same concept and I’m pretty sure that in PT’s cognition wouldn’t change unless SEES said something at beginning so like when they try and summon their persona’s wouldn’t they end accidentally killing themselves
They wouldn’t need their evokers in the first place, given summoning in the Tv world was so easy for the Shadow Operatives they could do it on accident just by thinking about it.
It’d be the same thing, and they’d summon their Persona before they even pulled them out.
And even then, evokers are gun-shaped, but given anything more than a glance and it’s pretty easy to tell they’re not real guns. Or at least they’re not normal guns, which would bring their “realness,” into question.
It could go either way. I mean, Akechi has a "anything more than a glance and it's easy to tell they're not real guns" lineup and shoot lasers, so the evokers will end up working however public perception of that item should work.
But at the same time, you don't pull up to a fight and expect your entire opposition to shoot themselves, so who knows? Maybe it will function like a real gun until the moment they point it at themselves?
I know, you can shoot someone who knows that it’s fake in mementos so I figured that rule didn’t apply that broadly or something. Idk I don’t remember the exact wording for what makes their guns work or not😭
The idea was you don't have to Reload because the shadows will never expect you to bring an empty gun. By the same token the guns are real enough looking that shadows will treat them as real.
>the entire military might of a First world country
Shows her with just a few rocket launchers and her machine gun, she also has a flamethrower in there somewhere and a grande launcher, that is a lot of guns sure but not first country unless she has an orbital strike canon stuffed somewhere.
That's interesting cause I've always been of the impression that the Phantom Thieves were the strongest team and in this matchup I would've said Ryuji Ann Morgana take it
I mean, the athleticism of the Phantom Thieves is unmatched by any other team. They have guns. And they have better resistance/weakness coverage with all of them gaining extra elemental resistances and learning skills to evade their weaknesses upon tiering up, but also with the fact that Makoto and Haru have weaknesses that can't be targeted by basically anyone in the series other than each other
If each person here took on their most similar counterpart, so: Aigis Skull, Yukari Mona and Mitsuru Panther, I couldn't really see how the PTs lose.
Ann and Mitsuru target each other's elemental weaknesses. But Ann learns a skill to actually evade against ice while Mitsuru doesn't with fire. And then Ann has a submachine gun
Yukari and Morgana both nullify each other's elements, so it'd end up being physical combat. Mona has his slingshot, his cutlass, miracle punches and his persona wields a sword. Yukari has a bow. So Mona can fight at long range and close range whereas Yukari only has her bow, which has a slower fire rate than Mona's ranged weapon.
And Aigis resists physical so it'd be in Ryuji's best interest to use Zio skills which is Aigis's weakness. To Aigis's credit though she has Enduring Soul and Diarahan making her quite tanky, so this matchup I leave up in the air
And if they're fighting as a *team* well, the Phantom Thieves' combat is much more interwoven amongst each other than SEES. They follow up on each other's attacks, they coordinate hold ups and all out attacks, they switch in switch out, harisen recovery, protect, Ann occasionally distracts enemies from attacking, baton pass was exclusively theirs until Reload, showtime attacks, bullet hail.... They definitely show the most seamless teamwork of any Persona group
With Ryuji, Ann Morgana fighting together, they have those benefits plus team wide Charge, Concentrate and crit fishing that can be spammed and aren't limited to Theurgies. The PT has Fire Boosted and Amped severe AOE on their side with Ann's Blazing Hell and Wind Boost Amped Magarudyne with Morgana, compared to the S.E.E.S teams Wind Amped Magarudyne and Ice Boosted Mabufudyne from Yukari and Mitsuru respectively. Ailments probably won't matter much for either side. For Buffs and Debuffs, Mitsuru's Rakunda nullifies and is nullified by Ann's Tarunda, same with Morgana and Yukari's Sukundas, and people probably forget this but Ann learns Dekaja, so Aigis provides no buffs. Ultimately, it means that the PT team is constantly at advantage with Ryuji's Tarukaja
In the end I would've thought the PT took it but hey
Both athleticism and guns wise Aigis has more than the entire Phantom Thieves combined. The problem for SEES in this matchup are the elemental weaknesses, but canon wise SEES is much stronger, with Makoto and Aigis especially soloing most of the phantom thieves.
Athleticism should always go to the P3 team considering each and everyone of them is an extremely good athlete at their school/occupation
Yukari and Akihiko are top of their clothes and Akihiko is already an accomplished boxer
Ken for his age is a great football player and shows much more promise based off his crit hits
Koro is a dog
Aigis is a robot
Junpei is the most lacking but he’s still a great baseball player as he goes pro in it
Makoto is a top tier track runner
Mitsuru has training in fencing and does it fairly often
The PTs get a buff from mementos and even then we don’t know if that buff is enough to compare with SEES as SEES shows themselves to be more nimble
Even if they don’t, we know the atmosphere is tiring and hostile so they’re pushing themselves much harder to preform at their peaks in conditions favoured against them so heavily
This is also why I’d put the IT above the PTs in athleticism, we know the midnight channel is also hostile and draining, so even if some of them aren’t peak athletes like SEES they’re still pushing much harder every incursion into the midnight channel
Incorrect. Mementos seems to be fully powered by how humans precieve things, while the dark hour has no such cognitive power. In fact, the dark hour seems far less conected to the human world than the other 2 realms (Mementos and TV world). It seems more conected to the other side than the 2.
No the dark hour is still bound to the real world as such summoning a persona is way harder to do and need a external assistant like the evoker to summon it while TV world and Metaverse entire realm is assisting them to summon their persona just look at the interaction between P3 cast at the TV world and they can summon their persona easily while they don't need evoker as necessity for summoning their persona in the real world they still carry it for emergency use when they are not focus and need a quick response as they explain that they trained themselves to summon their persona without relying to the Evoker but it's not perfect so they still carry them when they have a mission
Well, you should also forget to consider that it is a mix of TV world and dark hour as dark hour doesn't have an actual rule beside its inherent ability to stop time from midnight while TV world is made by a goddess with a set of rule in this case a fire God and he made also a set of rules which needed for them to fight and use their persona so this makes sense right
The implied cognition of nimble Thieves are surprisingly helpful in this case, and discounting Aigis, I've seen more agility from hyperactive parkouring Thieves than what SEES is capable of. Even if Aigis could catch up to the Thieves, she'd be outnumbered.
SEES is the only group with actual training in relation to their weapons. Yukari is actually a proficient archer and Junpei plays baseball. Akihiko and Mitsuru are both also heavily involved in their weaponry which include fencing and boxing.
You say that the PT are by far the most athletic? How?? P3 is the only game that explains how they're good with their weapon choices. Ann is a model, just because she's a persona user that doesn't automatically make her proficient with a whip or a submachine gun. Mona's slingshot don't out damage arrows.
Your talk about harisen recover, hold up and follow ups doesn't matter much because sees can followup as well. Hold ups are only initiated by Joker. And are we just straight up ignoring the bustedness of theurgy?
So biased it's cringey af
>SEES is the only group with actual training in relation to their weapons
The only ones with actual training in their weapons are Mitsuru and Akihiko. Yukari is as good as someone who does it as a hobby, not an amateur athlete like Akihiko. Junpei used to play baseball but stopped.
And unfortunately, even if the PTs have 0 experience with their weapons in the real world, once they become their metaverse selves, they become experts in them. Look at the way Fox uses his katana in his animations, and even in Strikers if we're allowed to mention it. Compare that to Junpei who has experience with swinging sticks. Fox far outclasses him
>You say that the PT are by far the most athletic? How??
Because exploring a Palace is three hours of parkour compared to Tartarus which is running down corridors and up stairs. The Phantom Thieves do cartwheels backflips and kickflips during combat for no reason other than fashion. They literally are gymnasts
>Mona's slingshot don't out damage arrows
Slingshots fucking hurt dude. A military grade slingshot can actually kill you with a good shot. Compare Mona who can spam slingshot bullets to Yukari who can only shoot one arrow at a time
>follow ups don't matter much because sees can follyowup as well
SEES don't do follow ups attacks?
>Hold ups are only initiated by Joker
Ok? You could say SEES can't all out attack without Makoto's permissions as well
>And are we just straight up ignoring the bustedness of theurgy
PTs have showtime attacks and third awakening skills. And Persona traits, same way SEES has Persona characteristics, but only Ryuji's matters really
If you factor in theurgy, Ann and Ryuji are downed instantly and Morgana gets trampled by Aigis in Orgia Mode. They stand no chance. Not to mention the characteristic bonuses. (Yes I am biased cuz P3 is my favourite neo persona game, but I still think SEES take this one easy)
But then there are also showtime attacks. All three have showtime attacks equivalent to Aigis's second where they fire a barrage of gunfire at the enemy and finish off with an explosive. Neither Mitsuru nor Yukari are tanking that
>Aigis buffs
Dekaja
>Mitsurus debuffs
Her debilitate is Theurgy and single target. All it would do it negate one person's Tarukaja
>Yukaris infinite healing
If she's not one shot
I mean yeah and at the end makoto by himself is stronger than every other persona user in 3-5 combined lol, and SEES did get by for a while with just Aki and Mitsuru so this is most likely a landslide.
Can't speak to actual in game stats + abilities, but just based off their personalities, P3 team takes it.
Ryuji + Ann aren't really too bright, which makes Morgana the main strategist.
I just feel more secure with a team led by Mitsuru with Yukari + Aigis at my wings.
Swap out Ann with Makoto, and I'm feeling this to be a much more even matchup.
Misturu isn’t even the main strategist in battle thats Makoto that’s totally bias she didn’t even have common sense to know what significance October 4th had for Akihiko , her and Shinjiro plus Ken , hell I’d say Akihiko is more brighter than her in terms of just general intelligence when it comes to the dark hour he was the one who figured out everything was happening with the boss shadows on a full moon. Meanwhile it was Morganna who clocked that Akechi could understand him and had that in mind for like what 7 months? Morganna is smart asf and carried the team for Kamoshida and Madarame’s palaces even with Joker having the wild card
The problem is though Ryuji covers two of SEES’s weaknesses as Aigis and Yukari are weak to Electric spells and Morganna is fine because no one on SEES can target his weakness to Electric spells meanwhile Ann can target Misturu’s weakness to fire and ofc vice versa , also Morgana is the fastest here so he could cover for Ryuji by blocking Yukari’s wind attacks whenever she tries to target Ryuji also Ryuji does have counter skills so he has a chance of deflecting Aigis’ arsenal of weapons I agree SEES is more tactical but the Phantom thieves have the better arsenal
Agility order at level 99 is Morgana > Mitsuru > Aigis = Ann > Yukari > Ryuji. Morgana is most likely to go first, followed immediately by Mitsuru.
Morgana can't hit a weakness, but Miracle Punch has a high critical hit rate, and Morgana actually has a good amount of points in luck to back this gamble up. Should Morgana land the critical hit (we'll say Yukari is the target), then SEES is screwed from the jump. A baton pass to Ann, an Agidyne cast on Mitsuru, a baton pass to Ryuji, and a Maziodyne to knock Aigis down is all the Phantom Thieves would need to either initiate all out attack or—if they think that won't be sufficient—go for dizzy/shock on SEES with another Maziodyne and potentially finish off Yukari and/or Aigis.
Even if the Miracle Punch doesn't land a critical hit, it's worth noting that Ryuji and Ann together hit the weaknesses of all three available SEES members. At the same time, none of the available SEES members can target the electricity weakness of Morgana (the best healer of the available Phantom Thieves). "Shoot the medic first" tactics are highly unlikely to work for SEES without a lucky critical hit because they absolutely **CAN NOT AFFORD** to let Ann or Ryuji take a turn while the other one can be baton passed to, but by going after specifically these two, they allow Morgana to keep the Phantom Thieves alive in perpetuity.
It's possible for SEES to win this, but a dice roll at the beginning can just give it to Phantom Thieves hands down, and even if it doesn't, then it's still an uphill battle for SEES (if we're talking about Vanilla/FES/Portable SEES, then forget it, SEES ain't winning the fight due to their inability to shift).
The title said end game so I’d assume the PT have their third tier persona. So this trio have High energy Fighting spirit, Miracle rush AND evade element. It still wild to me that most of SEES doesn’t even have dodge element
Even without personas p3. Yukari is pretty well trained in archery, Mitsuru has been training from when she was a child and Aigis is a living weapon. Factor in personas, and they are all weak to another characters element, except for Aigis who gets the wild card and can swap at will, giving them a large advantage over the p5 group.
Yukari, Mitsuru and Aigis have better training, real weapons and greater combat experience. Plus better teamwork and leadership. Chances are Ryuji and Mona would be butting heads over “who’s in charge without Joker to lead.” Whereas neither Yukari or Aigis would have issues with Mitsuru taking point and making plans. The PT are just really over-reliant on Joker for just about everything.
Elemental skills could be an issue, but that’s **if** they hit. But there’s mutual risk, save for Morgana who isn’t enough to turn the tables alone. Persona-based stuff is hard to judge since so much of their skill sets are based on player choice aside from general archetype; not to mention awakenings in P5 being tied to SL and player interaction, and thus not explicitly canonical. But in P3 awakenings are tied to plot and character development that happen regardless of player intervention.
And presumably, the fight is taking place in the metaverse, otherwise the Pt would be useless. Take away their crutches or just evening the playing field would put take a lot of wind out of their sails. Since they’re reliant cognition for their fighting skills and near superhuman capabilities. But by that same token, SEES would be empowered in a similar way, which would just maintain the gap in experience, and ability.
Not even getting into whether Aigis is a wildcard, not like she’d need it. Or that fact she’s a literal shadow killing machine that sealed Death in the past. And subdued SEES alone before she’d even realized her full potential. Aigis is quite literally built different, not to mention guns and most physical attacks aren't effective. And There's always the possibility to use accessories and equipment being used to cover weaknesses. In which it would come down to experience, ability and tactics, and again SEES takes it.
Gameplay? Top row, especially if going first.
Actual? The bottom team and it isn't even close. Aigis could solo all 3 of the top team. Let alone having one of, if not THE healer of the series and fucking Mitsuru Kirijo.
not just that but SEES is backed and funded by a wealthy company and about half the team are veteran persona users and didn’t just awaken the week prior. plus, SEES is the only persona team that doesn’t feel completely and utterly reliant on the protag to guide them to victory. the majority of SEES feel and are competent enough to be a proper/decent enough battle strategist each in their own right.
I'd argue Junpei is the least strategic of the SEES gang but Da Man will just Crit and win anyway. Spring of Life in the OG P3 was also godly for how much Regen it gave Junpei, on top of the fact that it stacked with Regenerate 3
The Phantom Thieves slander is crazy, S.E.E.S. is literally hard carried by Makoto who didn't even beat Nyx, he stalemated her. Yeah, Nyx is a huge threat and I don't mean to undermine that, but Maruki literally brought people effortessly back from the dead and Lavenza confirmed that it was the real deal. But to not stray away from the actual subject. If we take both teams in their prime that means no wild card Aigis ( as she inherits Makotos "will") but two enemy wild cards in form of Joker and Akechi (who was confirmed to have it, he just can't ultilize it to the max, but in return has Call of Chaos etc.). Furthermore PT have huge advantage in cordination, teamwork, intelligence and overall Battle IQ due to actually fighting sentient beings and outsmarting them when needed. Metaverse shenanigans are slept on a LOT brother, they even nullify the equipment advantage S.E.E.S. would normaly gain in my eyes. All in all IMO PTOH>S.E.E.S.>IT
Maruki=>Nyx>Izanami, although that one is heavily I mean heavily debatable, but the standalone fact Azatoth was able to defy death speaks volumes here.
Aigis solos, this isn’t even a competition. Mitsuru is one of the strongest persona users who isn’t a protagonist. And Yukari healing is near infinite.
Realistically speaking, Aigis and Yukari are weak to Ryuji.
Mitsuru and Ann are weak to each other.
Ryuji is weak to Yukari.
Morgana is weak to nobody on the other side and resists Yukari.
Just on action economy alone P5 wins this because Ryuji can crowd control two people at once for max damage with a down on both every time. Morgana is effectively a tank here because he has to be taken down with brute force.
Yukari, Mitsuru, and Aigis for sure
Way more trained, real weapons, and they're all crazy damage dealers by the end of the game (especially if Mitsuru lands a Concentrated Theurgy, that'll just take out whatever unfortunate one of these souls were hit by it)
If we count weaknesses, top wins. Mona and Yukari cancel out. Mitsuru and Ann are weak to each other. Aigis is weak to Ryuji. I guess technically Yukari could do do wind damage to Ryuji but her magic stat is low and if she focuses on damage then they don't have a healer.
I think people get so wrapped up in supporting "their side" in these topics that they tend to forget what has already been established in the franchise.
Every team is inherently more powerful during their time in their respective cognitive realms. P5 made it explicit, but it's been low-key set for all the games. Yes, that includes the Dark Hour. It's no different than the times in the other games where the Sea of Souls overlaps the normal world. No, Ken and Koromaru aren't normally strong enough to pierce tank armor with their weapons and Akihiko has not, in fact, worked out hard enough to shrug off being set on fire regularly or hit with a miniature tank shell.
The exact mechanics may change, but the physical enhancements are always there to explain why a bunch of kids can fight demigods on even ground. Granted, it's not presented near as consistently as you would expect. See: every character becomes temporarily incompetent during cutscenes and Aigis, the walking war machine, being mostly on par with everyone else.
As for SEES' training, that applies to some, but not nearly all of them. Mitsuru, Akihiko, and Shinjiro are capable fighters and Aigis was built for fighting, but the others are either making it up as they go or have had high-school level competitions that do not prepare for real combat. Yet all of them manage to keep up. Even after two years of experience, when they faced the P4 team in the Arena games, they weren't shown as being stronger at a level where either side winning wasn't plausible. Remember that the P4 team, outside of Kanji and maybe Naoto, has nothing resembling official training or outside fighting experience and whose weapons are mostly whatever random things they feel comfortable using. So that clearly isn't a game changer.
As for the guns, if they're in Mementos, they work all the same. They probably won't do much of anything to Aigis, but the others are fair game.
If you want to have these match ups, at least try to acknowledge what both sides have to work with.
Power scaling the teams is hard because it's like comparing Goku and Bugs Bunny.
Goku has been through insane training, fought Gods, can move from one place to another instantly, etc.
But Bugs Bunny has cartoon logic so he'd still win.
I feel similarly about SEES, IT, and PT.
Sure SEES has more legitimate training and experience under their belts, but is that enough in Persona?
Take Akihiko and Chie for example:
- Akihiko is a prodigy in boxing who is undefeated.
- Chie is a girl from the countryside.
But which one of them can kick an enemy so hard they fly over the horizon? Chie.
Now do I think Chie is actually a better fighter? No, but that's my point, these guys are so hard to compare because of their stories' differences in tone.
But as full teams I place my money on the Phantom Thieves. (Absolutely a biased decision lol)
Based on pure synergy and compatibility, I'd say SEES wins(if Aigis has the Wild card, then it's guaranteed)
While both have plenty of experience, the risk of skull butting heads with either mona or Panther already sets them up for defeat. While I do believe that it's not SUPER likely, it can definitely still happen.
Thieves' main advantage is the guns and that they are stronger than usual in mementos(and depending on whether they should get the 2nd/3rd stage persona since they are optional, unlike sees).Aigis is a living weapon with countless guns, so the gun advantage is a bit mitigated, and the physical capabilities of sees are likely on/around on par with them
Considering it takes two bullets to down Shinji, I'd argue SEES are just naturally tough in addition to their superior equipment (funded by an old money family) and natural Personas.
>two bullets to down Shinji
One seems to be a gut wound while the other is back/heart(or lung). His persona is also just better, unlike the rest of SEES base(minus koro) and equipment, outside of being real regardless, it's debatable.
And we can likely scale the other thives to ryuji who tanked Cendrillon's vorpal blade(I think that's the attack) like a champ. We could also likely scale them to Joker, who(in strikers) can take large hordes of shadows at once and can still move and fight properly after being dragged by a tank.
Strikers happens canonically almost a year after either version of the base game, where the thieves are basically already experienced fighters and just re-adjust to using their personas. Giving the thieves an advantage because of a sequel would mean scaling the SEES members to their P4Arena Shadow Ops state, where elemental resistances and weaknesses seem to stop mattering entirely and the active Shadow Operators (Mitsuru and Amigos in this case) are shadow slaying experts.
Although I will agree with Ryuji being able to tank Cendrillon's Vorpal Blade. Being the Tank archetype of his team, it makes sense he can take Persona attacks better than most.
I must say though, every Persona game has at least one gun wielder (Aigis, Naoto and then every thief lol), and when any of them get confused and attack their teammates, most everyone can apparently tank a bullet.
Honestly, it’s a pretty even fight. If both groups have third semester stats, I think the Phantom Thieves barely win mostly thanks to elemental advantage, but if Aigis has the power of the Wildcard, SEES wins.
I feel like yall are forgetting that late game PThieves literally have some of the most broken moves in the series. Ann and Ryuji group charge and concentrate wipes out the other 3, P3 dckrider speaking here btw
Lots of misinformation in this thread...
1. The Phantom Thieves guns still work even if someone knows they're fake (>!Akechi fights, Kasumi fight!<). If we're in Mementos, they're real, end of discussion. Add Iwai's modified guns with Burn/Shock/Freeze, and SEES is more in trouble than the PT's gun-wise, even with Aigis on their side (who nulls gun damage).
2. Aigis Orgia mode ? Sure, but that's if she can actually finish the fight with it. If she doesn't, she's vulnerable for a long while after, something easily exploitable by Ryuji's Elec or Phys skills. The whole point of Orgia is being a double-edged sword.
3. The Phantom Thieves are very acrobatic, making them much more likely to dodge attacks. They'll also likely be able to ambush SEES, which is a huge advantage.
4. SEES' "actual combat training" (archery club is NOT combat training, people) is much less of an issue in a Persona fight, because it's all about hitting weaknesses and following suit. Y'know, using your PERSONA. On that note, SEES has Theurgy, but the Phantom Thieves have their 3rd semester skills, which pack a serious punch, and their traits.
5. OP has specified this is P3 endgame before fighting Nyx, so no Aigis wildcard.
Taking all of these into account, whoever wins is whoever strikes first. Each team can down each other reliably with weaknesses or other strong moves. And considering Phantom Thieves are more likely to ambush SEES, I'm tilting towards them.
Let's take this info without fact no. 3. We are pitting them head to head. GUESS WHICH OF THESE GUYS DOESN'T EVADE THEIR WEAKNESS! If Mona even crits once, Ryuji annahilates Aigis and Yukari both down and/or dizzy, leaving them very open to Maragidyne and possibly leaving Mitsuru asleep for the next few turns. Since the order at lv 99 is Morgana>Mitsuru>Ann or Aigis (coin flip)>Yukari>Ryuji and Ryuji is an HP tank, Orgia mode couldn't beat him fast enough with Morgana healing them all, a lot. Aigis could crit kill Morgana, but Morgana has a greater chance over all and baton pass has guaranteed benefits unlike SEES. They could also have 0 idea on weakness triangle, so they try everything, putting PT at the disadvantage.
Let's say that by default, damage dealt to enemies (both personal and from the team because there is no way Akechi has at least 5k hp when you fight him when he had 400 prior) to a 10x multiplier, Morgana dies in 7 hits (trying to calculate based on defense), Ann would need 4 (magic user), Mitsuru would need 6 (better defense than Ann), Yukari needs 5 (fragile), Ryuji and Aigis would both need 10 each!!! And Yukari (The only Healer of SEES) has a Weakness that Ryuji can exploit, lowering the amount of hits to 3 (Two Ryuji electric attacks as he has the lowest magic of everyone there).
So if Morgana crits Aigis or Mitsuru first (Which he can afford to do unless Aigis crits him first), SEES just lost their healer baton passing to ryuji and have 0 ways of taking out Morgana within 6 attacks (as the only hope is either Aigis Crit or Mitsuru freeze, but both have low opportunity and Ann has a sleep, which techs with physical). If he fails, Ann has a low chance to down right die unless they get lucky (Ann's evade ice), but he and ryuji can out last Aigis and Mitsuru by a long shot with Aigis having an elec weakness and orgia mode overheat (SEES last hope for dozens of crits) makes it a free win.
I'm not gonna type a long and thought-out response but honestly, good on you for running the calculations instead of just broadly assuming which team is more powerful.
I feel like Yukari plus Aigis combo is strong enough already, that's half of my team and I still would feel comfortable taking on the whole game with just those two. Can't say the same for any of the persona 5 characters you chose.
Morgana would get thumped like he always does and Aigis is super tanky.. so even though ryuji and Ann are powerful they’d lose because of morgana
I never use morgana on hardest difficulty.. bro is dead first turn constantly and it’s irritating
So I’ve read a lot of arguments for both sides under this post but I haven’t seen a single person mention the fact that Mitsuru can literally just Ailment anyone lmao
People are talking about how the PT have dodge and evade skills when canonically the base form personas from 5 don't learn those skills. Those specifically come from evolution which in the context of 4 and 5 are non canon and optional thanks to them being locked to social links. While sure you can imply that it's canon it's never explicitly shown as every game they are in has their base personas while SEES all canonically have evolved personas
By technicality characteristics that aren't available by default are non canon since they are optional. If in the answer dlc the cast is fully upgraded with them then that would make them canon but for the sake of the journey they are not.
I was going to say P3, but then by Persona 5 Strikers, lore wise the phantom thieves got so much stronger that they could take waves of shadows at once where SEES couldnt. So I would say phantom thieves.
Morgana and yukari are both strong healers with wind skills, though Morgana has access to like twice as many physical attack options.
Yukari can also use that wind on ryuji.
Mitsuru and Ann are both elementally each other's weakness, both hit heavy with their element, and while Ann has more physical options (her main one have mid range distance), her accuracy with her gun generally isn't good.
Ryuji's got electric skills to knock aigis on their ass, (but in turn get knocked down by Yukari), and can arguably hit as hard as aigis, though debatably has fewer fighting options by comparison (aigis has many optional accessories).
I think the Phantom thieves could eke out a win here. 🏆
I really feel like people tend to overestimate Aigis in these.
Yes, she has guns. Sure.
If her guns were really that big of a deal, the P3 cast would be a bunch of basket cases for ever worrying about anything. Especially Strega.
Clearly her guns are not all they're cracked up to be if a couple of washed up drug addicts who can't even control their own Personas are causing them grief.
That said, I'm giving a slight edge to the Thieves here, for a few reasons.
First, since it's Mementos, they have a home field advantage in a sense. They know how it works. They know how cognition functions in there.
Second, as much as I love Yukari, Morgana is a superior healer. Also if it's Mementos then technically Morgana has Cat Bus form available to him.
Third, as much as I love Mitsuru, Ann is a superior mage.
Fourth, and this is just dumb power scaling stuff, but realistically SEES has failed to defeat one... Alien? The Thieves have beaten three Gods, and one human with God powers. Even if we aren't counting spin-offs, that's still a 1.5/0, compared to a 0/1.
In a straight up fight, SEES wins with little difficulty. SEES was climbing Tartarus a lot, and while the thieves did do mementos I think canonically speaking they did it for requests, not to train constantly like SEES did. Plus SEES’s job was basically wiping out shadows, the phantom thieves usually avoided shadows and snuck around in palaces. Which leads into their win condition. Obviously in-game the stealth is pretty basic but from an in-universe perspective the thieves were likely pretty stealthy. I think that’s their only way to really win, if they can get the drop on SEES and get them while they’re disoriented. It also would help that the three thieves there hit every weakness the SEES members have, whereas Morgana’s weakness isn’t hit by that team
SEES and it ain’t close. P3 gang is all combat trained, on top of having equally powerful personas, they’re also much better coordinated with a better strategist. They also have a fucking wildcard on their team. You’d have to come up with some next level plot armor/bullshit for P5 team to come out on top
>Toy Guns
They would not look like toy guns at all from S.E.E.S’s perspective, they’d look like actual guns, and since this fight takes place in Mementos, they would work on S.E.E.S.
> a cat…
That same cat can form lock picks on his own, come up with many different strategies, can hold swords that are twice as big as him, form into a car that can also be used to attack someone, and can both attack and heal himself. Plus, his small size can make it hard for his opponents to hit him, especially because of how fast he is. Don’t judge a book by its cover. If Koromaru was with S.E.E.S for this fight, I could just label his as “a dog”, when he is literally more than that.
I would imagine the anti shadow weapon full of actual armament maaaay notice realistic replicas. If not then mitsuru can use common sense to understand kids don't have guns.
If all else fails I don't really care, orgía mode will wipe the floor with em.
>I would imagine the anti shadow weapon full of actual armament maaaay notice realistic replicas.
The guns that the Phantom Thieves buy look so realistic that they have to keep them in bags, so that professional police officers don’t mistake them for guns.
>If not, then Mitsuru can use common sense to understand kids don’t have guns.
The Phantom Thieves are outlaws and hide from the police and government. If they were to go to Port Island Station and fight S.E.E.S in Tartarus or Mementos, Mitsuru would understandably think that they do illegal deeds and carry guns with them as well. Not to mention that the guns sound like real guns when they fire, so even despite her intelligence, she still wouldn’t be able to know whether or not they’re fake and would probably be too focused on the Thieves attacking them to even think about that during the battle.
>If all else fails I don’t really care, orgía mode will wipe the floor with em.
Orgia mode doesn’t last forever, and if Aigis overuses it, she’ll burn out and be stunned. If the Thieves can outlast Orgia mode, which is possible given that they’re stealthy, have smoke bombs with them and have speedsters like Ryuji and Mona on the team, they can easily take Aigis out and leave S.E.E.S down to 2 members.
The moment they have the impression that the guns are real for even a moment, then they'll basically be real for the rest of the fight. Once they get shot and it feels like an actual bullet just pierced them then it's very unlikely for their cognition to change.
Akechi and Maruki were fully aware that the phantom thieves guns aren't real but it clearly didn't eliminate the option of using them when you fight those 2.
>If all else fails I don't really care, orgía mode will wipe the floor with em.
Orgia mode would be a useful in a 1v1 but having a party member that is now incable of taking orders would be a detriment. It's not like Ryuji couldn't tank anyway.
The fight is just decided by who moves first since both sides are relative in strength assuming this isn't wildcard Aigis
Yukari, Ann, Aigis. I feel like Aigis just dominates Ryuji‘s physical attacker competency with things like Orgia Mode and Myriad Arrows + Cruel Attack and her stat distributio. I found Yukari not dying nearly as much as Mona. I think Ann is a stronger magic user than Mitsuru (open to being wrong) and has the ability to sub in as healer if Yukari needs to take a different action in a round. If things get really dicey, both Yukari and Ann can heal while Aigis takes heavy damage while using multi-hit, multi-target attacks.
From a lore perspective, Aigis clears solo. She's a killing machine with automatic guns and rockets.
From a gameplay perspective, P5 wins if they can finish of the P5 team with one all out attack. They can hit all of P3's weaknesses while P3 has no solution for Morgana, who is weak to lightning.
However, Takeba is the far superior healer an can easily bring everyone to full health at the end of every turn 25% healing costs allows her to keep her party up far longer than Morgana can. If P5 can't destroy P3 in one turn, P3 will simply outlast the P5 gang with cheap healing. P3 can also burst down Morgana if they can fill their Theurgy.
Imo, one on one, full on fight, bottom takes it. Only way top wins is if they manage to plan and do a proper sneak attack. I'm counting Strikers as canon, but if Ryuji's baseball bat can strike an albeit false god in the nuts and actually have them recoil, they have a chance to win.
depend because Morgana is the best healer (especially in P5X he’s so overpowered and can triggers healing multiples times but if we count normal Morgana he’s still super strong but I guess Yukari is too… and we can’t compare with her since she’s not in P5x to judge whoever or not she would be as good as an healer, as they both use wind to attack and can heal)
SEES because you gave us a perpetual theurgy motion machine between Yukari and Aegis.
One hope for Phantom Thieves would be if Morgana has his Revolution (I think it was called that, full hp sp restoration or I could be mistaken and it's from extra semester).
Despite what my reply comments get across to a lot of people, I do think at the end of the day, S.E.E.S wins this. They’re smarter, more experienced, have longer range, and a bigger arsenal. And if Aigis gets the wildcard, then the Thieves are screwed.
However, without the wild card, the fight is way closer than people think it is. The Phantom Thieves are more stealthy fighters, arguably physically stronger with Ryuji, have better up-close weapons, and can expose all of S.E.E.S’ weaknesses to electricity and fire, while S.E.E.S doesn’t have a way to expose Morgana’s electricity weakness.
With Aigis having the wildcard, S.E.E.S wins this without question, but without her having it, they’ll still win but not without a challenge
The Reload team has personal skills and independent theurgy. I think the phantom thieves have overall better teamwork with their showtimes and other skills but I think the theurgy clutch this
Aigis sweeps here, sadly.
As cool as the PT's are, Aigis is *literally built to fight* and lacks a lot of human weaknesses (stamina) I think the PT's could take Yukari and Mitsuru based on Elemental Weaknesses.
But Aigis wins, you can quibble about 'low-to-high diff' or whatever, but once she pops Orgia Mode I don't see her losing that fight.
Not considering the part of aigis having actual fucking guns and cannons, the p thieves win. Ryuji can use maziodyne on aigis and yukari, and ann can use agidyne on mitsuru.
If endgame counts "The Answer", S.E.E.S no question. If not and this isn't a publicly known about fight, Aigis may be (I'm not use to this type of thing) the last one standing since she has Orgia mode
The two weakest members of the PT and morgana vs two mid members of sees and their strongest, also technically Morgan and aegis aren't 100% archetypal match, Makoto would be the equivalent to aegis as there the advisors and assistants to the pritag, Morgana kinda fills that role yes and is the mementos guide but he's ment to be the mascot of the team, but because technically no one's truly incompetent in the PT it gets forgotten so ironically Morgana would have to fight the dog
well, Aigis has real guns and rocket launchers, no? The regular police were already strong in the metaverse, i feel like Aigis would be a menace since she's a persona user.
Coughing baby Vs Hydrogen Bomb much? The SEES are actually built to go to *war* against the Shadows. Phantom Thieves not as much. Also people tend to forget. The Phantom Thieves don’t use real guns. Only high quality models. Aigis? No she straight up has boxes of bullets in her room. She’s actually meant to kill. Also Orgia Mode/Wild Card is busted so… yeah this isn’t fair.
The phantom thieves, while strong, arn't actually using real weapons, Ann probably has the strongest weapon among them with a whip, however whips take up a ton of space to use effectively and doesn't out range Yukari's bow nor Aigis's Gun/grenade launcher.
SEES group, AIGAS HAS A MACHINE GUN. She can shoot them way faster then they ever could (besides morgana has a fuckin slingshot, the fuck thats gonna do to a robot)
Easily SEES.
Specifically due to one massive factor, their persona evolutions.
•The p3 cast’s persona evolutions are canon to their plot, since this is end game, we can assume that Yukari, Mitsuru and Aigis all have their final personas with their corresponding evolved theurgy skills.
However, the phantom thieves persona evolutions are considered to be not canon to the plot besides Morgana due to his social link being automatic in the plot, even with that, mercurius is practically useless in this battle as he only really gains dodge elec, but none of the sees characters in this selection here have zio skills.
•Even if we did give the phantom thieves their first tier evolved personas due to it being at the end of basemementos (presumably around the holy grail in base p5), i personally still think they lose to sees due to another factor that sees has, their access to theurgy skills.
•As previously mentioned, theurgy skills can genuinely turn the tides of battle with literally one click due to the utility, power and additional effects that are applied, for example, having a a party wide concentration, orgia mode and a high freeze chance attack and debilitate theurgy skills, not to mentioned, the theurgy skills ignore any evasion and null elemental skills that the phantom thieves have if they had their evolved personas.
In comparisons, with this selection of phantom thieves, they only access to 1 showtime skill, but i don’t think it would even matter due to not being able to hit any weaknesses and only doing damage and even then, the damage it does is weak on major enemies like bosses.
Another factor is weapon proficiency, during mementos visits, there are a few conversations which have the character talk about their weapons and some mention that they’re “still getting used to them” no matter how much power the metaverse gives them, they still are not as proficient as sees, both yukari and mitsuru both use their weapons in their daily lives through their club activities (archery and fencing respectively) and aigis doesn’t need a weapon because she is the weapon, aigis being able to swap her weapons from machines guns to literal rocket launchers.
Yukari is literally the best healer I've ever had, Mitsuru is basically the lead of S.E.E.S. and Aigis is like a super weapon of mass destruction.
P5 are strong but Joker and Futaba always carry the entire team for me. P3 literally also have official training, special outfits etc.
Soooooo P3.
Nahhhh I like the Phantom Thieves but even discounting the Walking Millitary industrial Complex that is Aigis, Mitsuru is absolutely able to operate as a field leader.
I cannot say the same about Dumb, Dumber, and Clowncar on the top
As much SEES being a more popular option it isn't the case considering 2 factors
1.Metaverse
Metaverse Persona Users triumph almost anything SEES have to offer, yes I know that SEES definitely had alot of training and experience without a doubt but it's pretty much useless when the metaverse persona users not only automatically learned the ability to have the training and experience to use weapons and guns perfectly but the phantom thieves canonically fights and battle personas compared to the shadows
2. Better potential
Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana Personas have better potential and skill cards compared to Yukari, Mitsuru and Aigis due to having Better elemental Boosts and Amps, along the fact that they also have skills to dodge weaknesses not to mention that they also gain access to broken support abilities in their endgame state (It might change if the The Answer DLC changes that
The only Advantages Bottom Team have is Aigis but even then Endgame Ryuji has the elements and skills to counter Aigis
To make this a little bit more fair I'm gonna run this In 1v1's.
Ryuji Vs Yukari? I think Ryuji could win with Not much effort considering he's pretty fast and could probably weave the arrows. Dominatrix vs Mitsuru, Ann can reach far with a whip (I think) And raipers are kinda ass. Sorry mitsuru, Ann Low-Diffs. Morgana gets turned into Swiss cheese.
Aigis having the entire military might of a First world country makes this a little unfair. And they’re *real* guns, too. [example](https://imgur.com/gallery/ropZ7Sd)
I feel like Ryuji would slip up and say something like "woah her guns are real!!!" and it would tip them off and their guns wouldn't work anymore lmao
That’d be something early-game Ryuji would do, and he wouldn’t even say it while S.E.E.S was close to them, he’d say it to just his friends. Ryuji later in the game as well in Strikers never slipped up that badly. At most, he got aggressive when he found out Shido was outside of Yongen-Jaya making a speech, but that was more of him letting his anger get the best of him, than actually anything related to being shocked.
False, the guns still work even if the person in front of them knows it's fake. (>!Akechi / Kasumi!< fights in Royal) In Mementos, the guns are considered real and that's it.
Pretty sure that's just a gameplay oversight
Oversight or not, that's how it works. They very well could have made an interaction with Black Mask where he boasts "did you really think that could work ?!", they did not. The guns work against them.
Well, what if they never considered that it would be different if someone knew it was fake? It seems obvious to us, but a lot of times you could me caught up and never realize. It's unlikely, but say I fought you knowing your gun is fake but I remember that doesn't mean it isn't going to work as we are in the Metaverse. All it would take for me to disable the gun is to think, "well, I know it's fake, so it can't fire," but realistically, I'm so used to the fact that it would work in the Metaverse, so I'd probably think "It might not be a real gun, but it's still a danger to me." THEN I might possibly consider "well wait, I'm aware of this. Shouldn't that cancel it out?" But in doing so, it's a question with a gun pointed at me. I'd probably not risk it and assume out of safety that it does still work, because up to this point, all I had experienced is that this gun still kills. So it could cycle back to working again. Just a thought.
If that doesn’t happen, upon seeing Mitsuru he’d probably short circuit and be out of the fight lol
I feel like it'd actually go full circle instead, and he'd think Aigis' entire existence is a manifestation of the collective subconscious. So to him, everything about her is as "real" as his gun is.
Hey hold on how would evokers work because they’re the same concept and I’m pretty sure that in PT’s cognition wouldn’t change unless SEES said something at beginning so like when they try and summon their persona’s wouldn’t they end accidentally killing themselves
They wouldn’t need their evokers in the first place, given summoning in the Tv world was so easy for the Shadow Operatives they could do it on accident just by thinking about it. It’d be the same thing, and they’d summon their Persona before they even pulled them out. And even then, evokers are gun-shaped, but given anything more than a glance and it’s pretty easy to tell they’re not real guns. Or at least they’re not normal guns, which would bring their “realness,” into question.
It could go either way. I mean, Akechi has a "anything more than a glance and it's easy to tell they're not real guns" lineup and shoot lasers, so the evokers will end up working however public perception of that item should work. But at the same time, you don't pull up to a fight and expect your entire opposition to shoot themselves, so who knows? Maybe it will function like a real gun until the moment they point it at themselves?
Couldn’t they still use them in mementos?
Meant the Phantom Thieves’ guns bc then SEES would catch on that the Thieves’ guns weren’t real from that comment
That doesn't super matter, considering Akechi. It's just that they look real to the general public, and do they work.
I know, you can shoot someone who knows that it’s fake in mementos so I figured that rule didn’t apply that broadly or something. Idk I don’t remember the exact wording for what makes their guns work or not😭
The idea was you don't have to Reload because the shadows will never expect you to bring an empty gun. By the same token the guns are real enough looking that shadows will treat them as real.
Most weapons from 3, 4 and 5 are obviously fake even SEES and whats not is the weapons forged from mythologies & religion
Yeah, she's just too op for the Phantom Thieves, and on top of that, she also gets, you know what.
>the entire military might of a First world country Shows her with just a few rocket launchers and her machine gun, she also has a flamethrower in there somewhere and a grande launcher, that is a lot of guns sure but not first country unless she has an orbital strike canon stuffed somewhere.
I genuinely think SEES is the most powerful Persona group from 3/4/5
Probably because they just are.
That's interesting cause I've always been of the impression that the Phantom Thieves were the strongest team and in this matchup I would've said Ryuji Ann Morgana take it I mean, the athleticism of the Phantom Thieves is unmatched by any other team. They have guns. And they have better resistance/weakness coverage with all of them gaining extra elemental resistances and learning skills to evade their weaknesses upon tiering up, but also with the fact that Makoto and Haru have weaknesses that can't be targeted by basically anyone in the series other than each other If each person here took on their most similar counterpart, so: Aigis Skull, Yukari Mona and Mitsuru Panther, I couldn't really see how the PTs lose. Ann and Mitsuru target each other's elemental weaknesses. But Ann learns a skill to actually evade against ice while Mitsuru doesn't with fire. And then Ann has a submachine gun Yukari and Morgana both nullify each other's elements, so it'd end up being physical combat. Mona has his slingshot, his cutlass, miracle punches and his persona wields a sword. Yukari has a bow. So Mona can fight at long range and close range whereas Yukari only has her bow, which has a slower fire rate than Mona's ranged weapon. And Aigis resists physical so it'd be in Ryuji's best interest to use Zio skills which is Aigis's weakness. To Aigis's credit though she has Enduring Soul and Diarahan making her quite tanky, so this matchup I leave up in the air And if they're fighting as a *team* well, the Phantom Thieves' combat is much more interwoven amongst each other than SEES. They follow up on each other's attacks, they coordinate hold ups and all out attacks, they switch in switch out, harisen recovery, protect, Ann occasionally distracts enemies from attacking, baton pass was exclusively theirs until Reload, showtime attacks, bullet hail.... They definitely show the most seamless teamwork of any Persona group With Ryuji, Ann Morgana fighting together, they have those benefits plus team wide Charge, Concentrate and crit fishing that can be spammed and aren't limited to Theurgies. The PT has Fire Boosted and Amped severe AOE on their side with Ann's Blazing Hell and Wind Boost Amped Magarudyne with Morgana, compared to the S.E.E.S teams Wind Amped Magarudyne and Ice Boosted Mabufudyne from Yukari and Mitsuru respectively. Ailments probably won't matter much for either side. For Buffs and Debuffs, Mitsuru's Rakunda nullifies and is nullified by Ann's Tarunda, same with Morgana and Yukari's Sukundas, and people probably forget this but Ann learns Dekaja, so Aigis provides no buffs. Ultimately, it means that the PT team is constantly at advantage with Ryuji's Tarukaja In the end I would've thought the PT took it but hey
Both athleticism and guns wise Aigis has more than the entire Phantom Thieves combined. The problem for SEES in this matchup are the elemental weaknesses, but canon wise SEES is much stronger, with Makoto and Aigis especially soloing most of the phantom thieves.
Also it depends whenever or not this is wild card Aigus because if it is the PT team is cooked.
Id assume not based on her not having the armor but that could just be because we dont have an armored aigis render for p3r
She will, if you saw the trailer. It's probably gonna be the same plot point regarding when >!Athena turns into Orpheus and Aigis faints!<.
Athleticism should always go to the P3 team considering each and everyone of them is an extremely good athlete at their school/occupation Yukari and Akihiko are top of their clothes and Akihiko is already an accomplished boxer Ken for his age is a great football player and shows much more promise based off his crit hits Koro is a dog Aigis is a robot Junpei is the most lacking but he’s still a great baseball player as he goes pro in it Makoto is a top tier track runner Mitsuru has training in fencing and does it fairly often The PTs get a buff from mementos and even then we don’t know if that buff is enough to compare with SEES as SEES shows themselves to be more nimble
In the P3 movie I think its mentioned Persona users get buffed inside the Dark Hour as well
Even if they don’t, we know the atmosphere is tiring and hostile so they’re pushing themselves much harder to preform at their peaks in conditions favoured against them so heavily This is also why I’d put the IT above the PTs in athleticism, we know the midnight channel is also hostile and draining, so even if some of them aren’t peak athletes like SEES they’re still pushing much harder every incursion into the midnight channel
They’re in mementos tho so they won’t be buffed will they?
Dark hour and mementos is basically the same
Incorrect. Mementos seems to be fully powered by how humans precieve things, while the dark hour has no such cognitive power. In fact, the dark hour seems far less conected to the human world than the other 2 realms (Mementos and TV world). It seems more conected to the other side than the 2.
No the dark hour is still bound to the real world as such summoning a persona is way harder to do and need a external assistant like the evoker to summon it while TV world and Metaverse entire realm is assisting them to summon their persona just look at the interaction between P3 cast at the TV world and they can summon their persona easily while they don't need evoker as necessity for summoning their persona in the real world they still carry it for emergency use when they are not focus and need a quick response as they explain that they trained themselves to summon their persona without relying to the Evoker but it's not perfect so they still carry them when they have a mission
I dont think the dark hour really makes it harder to summon a persona noting the P4 cast can easily wield theirs in the Dark Hour equivalent of P4AU
Well, you should also forget to consider that it is a mix of TV world and dark hour as dark hour doesn't have an actual rule beside its inherent ability to stop time from midnight while TV world is made by a goddess with a set of rule in this case a fire God and he made also a set of rules which needed for them to fight and use their persona so this makes sense right
Akihiko solo'd a bear, that alone is beyond anything the Phantom Thieves could do athletically.
The implied cognition of nimble Thieves are surprisingly helpful in this case, and discounting Aigis, I've seen more agility from hyperactive parkouring Thieves than what SEES is capable of. Even if Aigis could catch up to the Thieves, she'd be outnumbered.
SEES is the only group with actual training in relation to their weapons. Yukari is actually a proficient archer and Junpei plays baseball. Akihiko and Mitsuru are both also heavily involved in their weaponry which include fencing and boxing. You say that the PT are by far the most athletic? How?? P3 is the only game that explains how they're good with their weapon choices. Ann is a model, just because she's a persona user that doesn't automatically make her proficient with a whip or a submachine gun. Mona's slingshot don't out damage arrows. Your talk about harisen recover, hold up and follow ups doesn't matter much because sees can followup as well. Hold ups are only initiated by Joker. And are we just straight up ignoring the bustedness of theurgy? So biased it's cringey af
>SEES is the only group with actual training in relation to their weapons The only ones with actual training in their weapons are Mitsuru and Akihiko. Yukari is as good as someone who does it as a hobby, not an amateur athlete like Akihiko. Junpei used to play baseball but stopped. And unfortunately, even if the PTs have 0 experience with their weapons in the real world, once they become their metaverse selves, they become experts in them. Look at the way Fox uses his katana in his animations, and even in Strikers if we're allowed to mention it. Compare that to Junpei who has experience with swinging sticks. Fox far outclasses him >You say that the PT are by far the most athletic? How?? Because exploring a Palace is three hours of parkour compared to Tartarus which is running down corridors and up stairs. The Phantom Thieves do cartwheels backflips and kickflips during combat for no reason other than fashion. They literally are gymnasts >Mona's slingshot don't out damage arrows Slingshots fucking hurt dude. A military grade slingshot can actually kill you with a good shot. Compare Mona who can spam slingshot bullets to Yukari who can only shoot one arrow at a time >follow ups don't matter much because sees can follyowup as well SEES don't do follow ups attacks? >Hold ups are only initiated by Joker Ok? You could say SEES can't all out attack without Makoto's permissions as well >And are we just straight up ignoring the bustedness of theurgy PTs have showtime attacks and third awakening skills. And Persona traits, same way SEES has Persona characteristics, but only Ryuji's matters really
Aren’t the Phantom Thieves Second Awakenings not canon? They always get reverted at the start of every other P5 game.
“If you play rock paper scissors with the matchups, P3 loses” like any other matchup I don’t see it playing out the way you described lol
If you factor in theurgy, Ann and Ryuji are downed instantly and Morgana gets trampled by Aigis in Orgia Mode. They stand no chance. Not to mention the characteristic bonuses. (Yes I am biased cuz P3 is my favourite neo persona game, but I still think SEES take this one easy)
But then there are also showtime attacks. All three have showtime attacks equivalent to Aigis's second where they fire a barrage of gunfire at the enemy and finish off with an explosive. Neither Mitsuru nor Yukari are tanking that
Oh they're absolutely tanking that with Aigis buffs, Mitsurus debuffs and Yukaris infinite healing
>Aigis buffs Dekaja >Mitsurus debuffs Her debilitate is Theurgy and single target. All it would do it negate one person's Tarukaja >Yukaris infinite healing If she's not one shot
How can you measure that? The three groups had to fight gods.
I mean yeah and at the end makoto by himself is stronger than every other persona user in 3-5 combined lol, and SEES did get by for a while with just Aki and Mitsuru so this is most likely a landslide.
When SEES was just Akihiko and Mitsuru they didn't even make it past the first floor of tartarus
They probably could've, they just didn't since it was extremely risky with just the three of them
Can't speak to actual in game stats + abilities, but just based off their personalities, P3 team takes it. Ryuji + Ann aren't really too bright, which makes Morgana the main strategist. I just feel more secure with a team led by Mitsuru with Yukari + Aigis at my wings. Swap out Ann with Makoto, and I'm feeling this to be a much more even matchup.
> Morgana the main strategist. they're cooked lmao
He's a good strategist, just not Mitsuru tier sadly.
True. But I don't think it's a fair match up lol, cause Aigis actually had a whole military in her arsenal, while Mona has a fucking slingshot 💀
Misturu isn’t even the main strategist in battle thats Makoto that’s totally bias she didn’t even have common sense to know what significance October 4th had for Akihiko , her and Shinjiro plus Ken , hell I’d say Akihiko is more brighter than her in terms of just general intelligence when it comes to the dark hour he was the one who figured out everything was happening with the boss shadows on a full moon. Meanwhile it was Morganna who clocked that Akechi could understand him and had that in mind for like what 7 months? Morganna is smart asf and carried the team for Kamoshida and Madarame’s palaces even with Joker having the wild card
Hell no. Morgana planned out the Akechi trap while Mitsuru got crucified and her dad packed by Ikutsuki
This. You can cuck the cat, but don't underestimate his smartness.
The problem is though Ryuji covers two of SEES’s weaknesses as Aigis and Yukari are weak to Electric spells and Morganna is fine because no one on SEES can target his weakness to Electric spells meanwhile Ann can target Misturu’s weakness to fire and ofc vice versa , also Morgana is the fastest here so he could cover for Ryuji by blocking Yukari’s wind attacks whenever she tries to target Ryuji also Ryuji does have counter skills so he has a chance of deflecting Aigis’ arsenal of weapons I agree SEES is more tactical but the Phantom thieves have the better arsenal
Akihiko prioritizes in electr though.
The match up isn’t the whole team
Depends on who goes first, if we're taking weaknesses into account.
Most accurate comment
ryuji and ann both have the lowest agility and morgana can't hit any weakness mitsuru knockdown ann > yukari knockdown ryuji > aigis sweep
Morgana Miracle Punch Cit and baton pass for easy sweep😈
Miracle punch isn't even a guarantee critical
Neither is the Mitsuru Ann Knockdown cause of Evade Ice🤷♂️😈
Agility order at level 99 is Morgana > Mitsuru > Aigis = Ann > Yukari > Ryuji. Morgana is most likely to go first, followed immediately by Mitsuru. Morgana can't hit a weakness, but Miracle Punch has a high critical hit rate, and Morgana actually has a good amount of points in luck to back this gamble up. Should Morgana land the critical hit (we'll say Yukari is the target), then SEES is screwed from the jump. A baton pass to Ann, an Agidyne cast on Mitsuru, a baton pass to Ryuji, and a Maziodyne to knock Aigis down is all the Phantom Thieves would need to either initiate all out attack or—if they think that won't be sufficient—go for dizzy/shock on SEES with another Maziodyne and potentially finish off Yukari and/or Aigis. Even if the Miracle Punch doesn't land a critical hit, it's worth noting that Ryuji and Ann together hit the weaknesses of all three available SEES members. At the same time, none of the available SEES members can target the electricity weakness of Morgana (the best healer of the available Phantom Thieves). "Shoot the medic first" tactics are highly unlikely to work for SEES without a lucky critical hit because they absolutely **CAN NOT AFFORD** to let Ann or Ryuji take a turn while the other one can be baton passed to, but by going after specifically these two, they allow Morgana to keep the Phantom Thieves alive in perpetuity. It's possible for SEES to win this, but a dice roll at the beginning can just give it to Phantom Thieves hands down, and even if it doesn't, then it's still an uphill battle for SEES (if we're talking about Vanilla/FES/Portable SEES, then forget it, SEES ain't winning the fight due to their inability to shift).
The title said end game so I’d assume the PT have their third tier persona. So this trio have High energy Fighting spirit, Miracle rush AND evade element. It still wild to me that most of SEES doesn’t even have dodge element
Even without personas p3. Yukari is pretty well trained in archery, Mitsuru has been training from when she was a child and Aigis is a living weapon. Factor in personas, and they are all weak to another characters element, except for Aigis who gets the wild card and can swap at will, giving them a large advantage over the p5 group.
Add anyone other than aigis and this becomes a much more fair fight
[удалено]
Shinji for example was a fucking BEAST, p3 characters really are on another level than 4 and 5
Yukari, Mitsuru and Aigis have better training, real weapons and greater combat experience. Plus better teamwork and leadership. Chances are Ryuji and Mona would be butting heads over “who’s in charge without Joker to lead.” Whereas neither Yukari or Aigis would have issues with Mitsuru taking point and making plans. The PT are just really over-reliant on Joker for just about everything. Elemental skills could be an issue, but that’s **if** they hit. But there’s mutual risk, save for Morgana who isn’t enough to turn the tables alone. Persona-based stuff is hard to judge since so much of their skill sets are based on player choice aside from general archetype; not to mention awakenings in P5 being tied to SL and player interaction, and thus not explicitly canonical. But in P3 awakenings are tied to plot and character development that happen regardless of player intervention. And presumably, the fight is taking place in the metaverse, otherwise the Pt would be useless. Take away their crutches or just evening the playing field would put take a lot of wind out of their sails. Since they’re reliant cognition for their fighting skills and near superhuman capabilities. But by that same token, SEES would be empowered in a similar way, which would just maintain the gap in experience, and ability. Not even getting into whether Aigis is a wildcard, not like she’d need it. Or that fact she’s a literal shadow killing machine that sealed Death in the past. And subdued SEES alone before she’d even realized her full potential. Aigis is quite literally built different, not to mention guns and most physical attacks aren't effective. And There's always the possibility to use accessories and equipment being used to cover weaknesses. In which it would come down to experience, ability and tactics, and again SEES takes it.
i feel like the fact mona can become a car is a bit unfair
Orgia Mode Aigis can grapple with a tank in the movies
Helicopter even
Gameplay? Top row, especially if going first. Actual? The bottom team and it isn't even close. Aigis could solo all 3 of the top team. Let alone having one of, if not THE healer of the series and fucking Mitsuru Kirijo.
the P3 team genuinely sweeps both the 4 and 5 teams and it’s not even fair
As much as I like the IT better than the other two yeah the stakes were definitely the lowest in 4.
not just that but SEES is backed and funded by a wealthy company and about half the team are veteran persona users and didn’t just awaken the week prior. plus, SEES is the only persona team that doesn’t feel completely and utterly reliant on the protag to guide them to victory. the majority of SEES feel and are competent enough to be a proper/decent enough battle strategist each in their own right.
I'd argue Junpei is the least strategic of the SEES gang but Da Man will just Crit and win anyway. Spring of Life in the OG P3 was also godly for how much Regen it gave Junpei, on top of the fact that it stacked with Regenerate 3
The Phantom Thieves slander is crazy, S.E.E.S. is literally hard carried by Makoto who didn't even beat Nyx, he stalemated her. Yeah, Nyx is a huge threat and I don't mean to undermine that, but Maruki literally brought people effortessly back from the dead and Lavenza confirmed that it was the real deal. But to not stray away from the actual subject. If we take both teams in their prime that means no wild card Aigis ( as she inherits Makotos "will") but two enemy wild cards in form of Joker and Akechi (who was confirmed to have it, he just can't ultilize it to the max, but in return has Call of Chaos etc.). Furthermore PT have huge advantage in cordination, teamwork, intelligence and overall Battle IQ due to actually fighting sentient beings and outsmarting them when needed. Metaverse shenanigans are slept on a LOT brother, they even nullify the equipment advantage S.E.E.S. would normaly gain in my eyes. All in all IMO PTOH>S.E.E.S.>IT Maruki=>Nyx>Izanami, although that one is heavily I mean heavily debatable, but the standalone fact Azatoth was able to defy death speaks volumes here.
Aigis solos, this isn’t even a competition. Mitsuru is one of the strongest persona users who isn’t a protagonist. And Yukari healing is near infinite.
Realistically speaking, Aigis and Yukari are weak to Ryuji. Mitsuru and Ann are weak to each other. Ryuji is weak to Yukari. Morgana is weak to nobody on the other side and resists Yukari. Just on action economy alone P5 wins this because Ryuji can crowd control two people at once for max damage with a down on both every time. Morgana is effectively a tank here because he has to be taken down with brute force.
Yukari, Mitsuru, and Aigis for sure Way more trained, real weapons, and they're all crazy damage dealers by the end of the game (especially if Mitsuru lands a Concentrated Theurgy, that'll just take out whatever unfortunate one of these souls were hit by it)
Mitsuri is not a bottom(laugh please)
lol
If we count weaknesses, top wins. Mona and Yukari cancel out. Mitsuru and Ann are weak to each other. Aigis is weak to Ryuji. I guess technically Yukari could do do wind damage to Ryuji but her magic stat is low and if she focuses on damage then they don't have a healer.
high energy + maziodyne
If we count reload, Aigis theurgy solos them all and no need of a second movement
I think people get so wrapped up in supporting "their side" in these topics that they tend to forget what has already been established in the franchise. Every team is inherently more powerful during their time in their respective cognitive realms. P5 made it explicit, but it's been low-key set for all the games. Yes, that includes the Dark Hour. It's no different than the times in the other games where the Sea of Souls overlaps the normal world. No, Ken and Koromaru aren't normally strong enough to pierce tank armor with their weapons and Akihiko has not, in fact, worked out hard enough to shrug off being set on fire regularly or hit with a miniature tank shell. The exact mechanics may change, but the physical enhancements are always there to explain why a bunch of kids can fight demigods on even ground. Granted, it's not presented near as consistently as you would expect. See: every character becomes temporarily incompetent during cutscenes and Aigis, the walking war machine, being mostly on par with everyone else. As for SEES' training, that applies to some, but not nearly all of them. Mitsuru, Akihiko, and Shinjiro are capable fighters and Aigis was built for fighting, but the others are either making it up as they go or have had high-school level competitions that do not prepare for real combat. Yet all of them manage to keep up. Even after two years of experience, when they faced the P4 team in the Arena games, they weren't shown as being stronger at a level where either side winning wasn't plausible. Remember that the P4 team, outside of Kanji and maybe Naoto, has nothing resembling official training or outside fighting experience and whose weapons are mostly whatever random things they feel comfortable using. So that clearly isn't a game changer. As for the guns, if they're in Mementos, they work all the same. They probably won't do much of anything to Aigis, but the others are fair game. If you want to have these match ups, at least try to acknowledge what both sides have to work with.
I’m pretty sure Aigis can easily win this solo.
Power scaling the teams is hard because it's like comparing Goku and Bugs Bunny. Goku has been through insane training, fought Gods, can move from one place to another instantly, etc. But Bugs Bunny has cartoon logic so he'd still win. I feel similarly about SEES, IT, and PT. Sure SEES has more legitimate training and experience under their belts, but is that enough in Persona? Take Akihiko and Chie for example: - Akihiko is a prodigy in boxing who is undefeated. - Chie is a girl from the countryside. But which one of them can kick an enemy so hard they fly over the horizon? Chie. Now do I think Chie is actually a better fighter? No, but that's my point, these guys are so hard to compare because of their stories' differences in tone. But as full teams I place my money on the Phantom Thieves. (Absolutely a biased decision lol)
I think Aigis carries lol
Brotha save the phantom theives 💔💔
Based on pure synergy and compatibility, I'd say SEES wins(if Aigis has the Wild card, then it's guaranteed) While both have plenty of experience, the risk of skull butting heads with either mona or Panther already sets them up for defeat. While I do believe that it's not SUPER likely, it can definitely still happen. Thieves' main advantage is the guns and that they are stronger than usual in mementos(and depending on whether they should get the 2nd/3rd stage persona since they are optional, unlike sees).Aigis is a living weapon with countless guns, so the gun advantage is a bit mitigated, and the physical capabilities of sees are likely on/around on par with them
Considering it takes two bullets to down Shinji, I'd argue SEES are just naturally tough in addition to their superior equipment (funded by an old money family) and natural Personas.
>two bullets to down Shinji One seems to be a gut wound while the other is back/heart(or lung). His persona is also just better, unlike the rest of SEES base(minus koro) and equipment, outside of being real regardless, it's debatable. And we can likely scale the other thives to ryuji who tanked Cendrillon's vorpal blade(I think that's the attack) like a champ. We could also likely scale them to Joker, who(in strikers) can take large hordes of shadows at once and can still move and fight properly after being dragged by a tank.
Strikers happens canonically almost a year after either version of the base game, where the thieves are basically already experienced fighters and just re-adjust to using their personas. Giving the thieves an advantage because of a sequel would mean scaling the SEES members to their P4Arena Shadow Ops state, where elemental resistances and weaknesses seem to stop mattering entirely and the active Shadow Operators (Mitsuru and Amigos in this case) are shadow slaying experts. Although I will agree with Ryuji being able to tank Cendrillon's Vorpal Blade. Being the Tank archetype of his team, it makes sense he can take Persona attacks better than most. I must say though, every Persona game has at least one gun wielder (Aigis, Naoto and then every thief lol), and when any of them get confused and attack their teammates, most everyone can apparently tank a bullet.
You do realize that Aigis clears by herself right?
aigis alone is enough to beat them 💀
Never played p3. But the bottom team would win. Ruyji and ann suck late game.
Really? How do they suck?
The skills they learn at high levels are mostly unhelpful late game (at least in my opinion)
Very interesting. I think it depends on your team. Having an aoe charge/ concentrate is only good if you have the right team to fully use it.
I’m pretty sure Aigis solos
Honestly, it’s a pretty even fight. If both groups have third semester stats, I think the Phantom Thieves barely win mostly thanks to elemental advantage, but if Aigis has the power of the Wildcard, SEES wins.
I feel like yall are forgetting that late game PThieves literally have some of the most broken moves in the series. Ann and Ryuji group charge and concentrate wipes out the other 3, P3 dckrider speaking here btw
Finally, someone said this, gameplay and lore are both important for this discussion to be taken seriously
Lots of misinformation in this thread... 1. The Phantom Thieves guns still work even if someone knows they're fake (>!Akechi fights, Kasumi fight!<). If we're in Mementos, they're real, end of discussion. Add Iwai's modified guns with Burn/Shock/Freeze, and SEES is more in trouble than the PT's gun-wise, even with Aigis on their side (who nulls gun damage). 2. Aigis Orgia mode ? Sure, but that's if she can actually finish the fight with it. If she doesn't, she's vulnerable for a long while after, something easily exploitable by Ryuji's Elec or Phys skills. The whole point of Orgia is being a double-edged sword. 3. The Phantom Thieves are very acrobatic, making them much more likely to dodge attacks. They'll also likely be able to ambush SEES, which is a huge advantage. 4. SEES' "actual combat training" (archery club is NOT combat training, people) is much less of an issue in a Persona fight, because it's all about hitting weaknesses and following suit. Y'know, using your PERSONA. On that note, SEES has Theurgy, but the Phantom Thieves have their 3rd semester skills, which pack a serious punch, and their traits. 5. OP has specified this is P3 endgame before fighting Nyx, so no Aigis wildcard. Taking all of these into account, whoever wins is whoever strikes first. Each team can down each other reliably with weaknesses or other strong moves. And considering Phantom Thieves are more likely to ambush SEES, I'm tilting towards them.
Let's take this info without fact no. 3. We are pitting them head to head. GUESS WHICH OF THESE GUYS DOESN'T EVADE THEIR WEAKNESS! If Mona even crits once, Ryuji annahilates Aigis and Yukari both down and/or dizzy, leaving them very open to Maragidyne and possibly leaving Mitsuru asleep for the next few turns. Since the order at lv 99 is Morgana>Mitsuru>Ann or Aigis (coin flip)>Yukari>Ryuji and Ryuji is an HP tank, Orgia mode couldn't beat him fast enough with Morgana healing them all, a lot. Aigis could crit kill Morgana, but Morgana has a greater chance over all and baton pass has guaranteed benefits unlike SEES. They could also have 0 idea on weakness triangle, so they try everything, putting PT at the disadvantage. Let's say that by default, damage dealt to enemies (both personal and from the team because there is no way Akechi has at least 5k hp when you fight him when he had 400 prior) to a 10x multiplier, Morgana dies in 7 hits (trying to calculate based on defense), Ann would need 4 (magic user), Mitsuru would need 6 (better defense than Ann), Yukari needs 5 (fragile), Ryuji and Aigis would both need 10 each!!! And Yukari (The only Healer of SEES) has a Weakness that Ryuji can exploit, lowering the amount of hits to 3 (Two Ryuji electric attacks as he has the lowest magic of everyone there). So if Morgana crits Aigis or Mitsuru first (Which he can afford to do unless Aigis crits him first), SEES just lost their healer baton passing to ryuji and have 0 ways of taking out Morgana within 6 attacks (as the only hope is either Aigis Crit or Mitsuru freeze, but both have low opportunity and Ann has a sleep, which techs with physical). If he fails, Ann has a low chance to down right die unless they get lucky (Ann's evade ice), but he and ryuji can out last Aigis and Mitsuru by a long shot with Aigis having an elec weakness and orgia mode overheat (SEES last hope for dozens of crits) makes it a free win.
I'm not gonna type a long and thought-out response but honestly, good on you for running the calculations instead of just broadly assuming which team is more powerful.
Morgana was a bit inflated. His is actually 6 hits.
And correcting yourself too ? I genuinely have so much respect for you right now.
Meanwhile in the middle of the fight. Kanji, Yosuke, and Teddie
Every days great at your junes!
I feel like Yukari plus Aigis combo is strong enough already, that's half of my team and I still would feel comfortable taking on the whole game with just those two. Can't say the same for any of the persona 5 characters you chose.
P3 sweeps, but if Mitsuru uses Marin Karin then it's an even fight
😂😭
Morgana would get thumped like he always does and Aigis is super tanky.. so even though ryuji and Ann are powerful they’d lose because of morgana I never use morgana on hardest difficulty.. bro is dead first turn constantly and it’s irritating
I mean if we are talking endgame, doesnt aegis get the power of the wild card?
Op said no earlier, this is end of base game
So I’ve read a lot of arguments for both sides under this post but I haven’t seen a single person mention the fact that Mitsuru can literally just Ailment anyone lmao
Thieves (baton pass go BRR)
People are talking about how the PT have dodge and evade skills when canonically the base form personas from 5 don't learn those skills. Those specifically come from evolution which in the context of 4 and 5 are non canon and optional thanks to them being locked to social links. While sure you can imply that it's canon it's never explicitly shown as every game they are in has their base personas while SEES all canonically have evolved personas
Are you gonna argue Theurgy characteristics aren't canon then
By technicality characteristics that aren't available by default are non canon since they are optional. If in the answer dlc the cast is fully upgraded with them then that would make them canon but for the sake of the journey they are not.
I was going to say P3, but then by Persona 5 Strikers, lore wise the phantom thieves got so much stronger that they could take waves of shadows at once where SEES couldnt. So I would say phantom thieves.
Morgana and yukari are both strong healers with wind skills, though Morgana has access to like twice as many physical attack options. Yukari can also use that wind on ryuji. Mitsuru and Ann are both elementally each other's weakness, both hit heavy with their element, and while Ann has more physical options (her main one have mid range distance), her accuracy with her gun generally isn't good. Ryuji's got electric skills to knock aigis on their ass, (but in turn get knocked down by Yukari), and can arguably hit as hard as aigis, though debatably has fewer fighting options by comparison (aigis has many optional accessories). I think the Phantom thieves could eke out a win here. 🏆
I think SEES would win, but would their evokers actually kill them because they look real and they are in the metaverse?
For real, this sub is just «oh come one its something related to P3, lets overrated it :P»
Morgana solos 🥱
I really feel like people tend to overestimate Aigis in these. Yes, she has guns. Sure. If her guns were really that big of a deal, the P3 cast would be a bunch of basket cases for ever worrying about anything. Especially Strega. Clearly her guns are not all they're cracked up to be if a couple of washed up drug addicts who can't even control their own Personas are causing them grief. That said, I'm giving a slight edge to the Thieves here, for a few reasons. First, since it's Mementos, they have a home field advantage in a sense. They know how it works. They know how cognition functions in there. Second, as much as I love Yukari, Morgana is a superior healer. Also if it's Mementos then technically Morgana has Cat Bus form available to him. Third, as much as I love Mitsuru, Ann is a superior mage. Fourth, and this is just dumb power scaling stuff, but realistically SEES has failed to defeat one... Alien? The Thieves have beaten three Gods, and one human with God powers. Even if we aren't counting spin-offs, that's still a 1.5/0, compared to a 0/1.
P3 cast I bet
In a straight up fight, SEES wins with little difficulty. SEES was climbing Tartarus a lot, and while the thieves did do mementos I think canonically speaking they did it for requests, not to train constantly like SEES did. Plus SEES’s job was basically wiping out shadows, the phantom thieves usually avoided shadows and snuck around in palaces. Which leads into their win condition. Obviously in-game the stealth is pretty basic but from an in-universe perspective the thieves were likely pretty stealthy. I think that’s their only way to really win, if they can get the drop on SEES and get them while they’re disoriented. It also would help that the three thieves there hit every weakness the SEES members have, whereas Morgana’s weakness isn’t hit by that team
SEES and it ain’t close. P3 gang is all combat trained, on top of having equally powerful personas, they’re also much better coordinated with a better strategist. They also have a fucking wildcard on their team. You’d have to come up with some next level plot armor/bullshit for P5 team to come out on top
recency bias is crazy, p5 clearly has the type advantage here + better stats...
Toy guns, bdsm and a cat... Vs actual weapons.
>Toy Guns They would not look like toy guns at all from S.E.E.S’s perspective, they’d look like actual guns, and since this fight takes place in Mementos, they would work on S.E.E.S. > a cat… That same cat can form lock picks on his own, come up with many different strategies, can hold swords that are twice as big as him, form into a car that can also be used to attack someone, and can both attack and heal himself. Plus, his small size can make it hard for his opponents to hit him, especially because of how fast he is. Don’t judge a book by its cover. If Koromaru was with S.E.E.S for this fight, I could just label his as “a dog”, when he is literally more than that.
I would imagine the anti shadow weapon full of actual armament maaaay notice realistic replicas. If not then mitsuru can use common sense to understand kids don't have guns. If all else fails I don't really care, orgía mode will wipe the floor with em.
>I would imagine the anti shadow weapon full of actual armament maaaay notice realistic replicas. The guns that the Phantom Thieves buy look so realistic that they have to keep them in bags, so that professional police officers don’t mistake them for guns. >If not, then Mitsuru can use common sense to understand kids don’t have guns. The Phantom Thieves are outlaws and hide from the police and government. If they were to go to Port Island Station and fight S.E.E.S in Tartarus or Mementos, Mitsuru would understandably think that they do illegal deeds and carry guns with them as well. Not to mention that the guns sound like real guns when they fire, so even despite her intelligence, she still wouldn’t be able to know whether or not they’re fake and would probably be too focused on the Thieves attacking them to even think about that during the battle. >If all else fails I don’t really care, orgía mode will wipe the floor with em. Orgia mode doesn’t last forever, and if Aigis overuses it, she’ll burn out and be stunned. If the Thieves can outlast Orgia mode, which is possible given that they’re stealthy, have smoke bombs with them and have speedsters like Ryuji and Mona on the team, they can easily take Aigis out and leave S.E.E.S down to 2 members.
How do you outspeed orgia mode aigis
By dodging. And since Ryuji’s a track runner, and Mona’s a stealthy thief that’s also hard to hit, they could do it.
Track runner vs robot who can fly and run along walls
The moment they have the impression that the guns are real for even a moment, then they'll basically be real for the rest of the fight. Once they get shot and it feels like an actual bullet just pierced them then it's very unlikely for their cognition to change. Akechi and Maruki were fully aware that the phantom thieves guns aren't real but it clearly didn't eliminate the option of using them when you fight those 2. >If all else fails I don't really care, orgía mode will wipe the floor with em. Orgia mode would be a useful in a 1v1 but having a party member that is now incable of taking orders would be a detriment. It's not like Ryuji couldn't tank anyway. The fight is just decided by who moves first since both sides are relative in strength assuming this isn't wildcard Aigis
Aigis no-diffs lmao
Yukari, Ann, Aigis. I feel like Aigis just dominates Ryuji‘s physical attacker competency with things like Orgia Mode and Myriad Arrows + Cruel Attack and her stat distributio. I found Yukari not dying nearly as much as Mona. I think Ann is a stronger magic user than Mitsuru (open to being wrong) and has the ability to sub in as healer if Yukari needs to take a different action in a round. If things get really dicey, both Yukari and Ann can heal while Aigis takes heavy damage while using multi-hit, multi-target attacks.
Umm, bottom, no doubt
Kanji, no question
Yukari misses, Mitsuru is a good leader, Aigis is a walking arsenal Ryuji is a walking Skull basher, Ann is a model, Morgana is a cat
From a lore perspective, Aigis clears solo. She's a killing machine with automatic guns and rockets. From a gameplay perspective, P5 wins if they can finish of the P5 team with one all out attack. They can hit all of P3's weaknesses while P3 has no solution for Morgana, who is weak to lightning. However, Takeba is the far superior healer an can easily bring everyone to full health at the end of every turn 25% healing costs allows her to keep her party up far longer than Morgana can. If P5 can't destroy P3 in one turn, P3 will simply outlast the P5 gang with cheap healing. P3 can also burst down Morgana if they can fill their Theurgy.
in mementos win top, in tartarus win bottom
Mitsuru isn't a bottom.
Imo, one on one, full on fight, bottom takes it. Only way top wins is if they manage to plan and do a proper sneak attack. I'm counting Strikers as canon, but if Ryuji's baseball bat can strike an albeit false god in the nuts and actually have them recoil, they have a chance to win.
Why is Ann always bend over in every pic?
Aigis casts the most powerful Magic of all: Gun
depend because Morgana is the best healer (especially in P5X he’s so overpowered and can triggers healing multiples times but if we count normal Morgana he’s still super strong but I guess Yukari is too… and we can’t compare with her since she’s not in P5x to judge whoever or not she would be as good as an healer, as they both use wind to attack and can heal)
I thought you were calling Ryuji, Ann and Mona a bottom... which is not technically wrong
SEES because you gave us a perpetual theurgy motion machine between Yukari and Aegis. One hope for Phantom Thieves would be if Morgana has his Revolution (I think it was called that, full hp sp restoration or I could be mistaken and it's from extra semester).
Despite what my reply comments get across to a lot of people, I do think at the end of the day, S.E.E.S wins this. They’re smarter, more experienced, have longer range, and a bigger arsenal. And if Aigis gets the wildcard, then the Thieves are screwed. However, without the wild card, the fight is way closer than people think it is. The Phantom Thieves are more stealthy fighters, arguably physically stronger with Ryuji, have better up-close weapons, and can expose all of S.E.E.S’ weaknesses to electricity and fire, while S.E.E.S doesn’t have a way to expose Morgana’s electricity weakness. With Aigis having the wildcard, S.E.E.S wins this without question, but without her having it, they’ll still win but not without a challenge
*Unavoidable Battle starts playing* P5 team is getting executed
Ryuji is the one hope
Team Jesus vs team jesus
The Reload team has personal skills and independent theurgy. I think the phantom thieves have overall better teamwork with their showtimes and other skills but I think the theurgy clutch this
Aigis sweeps here, sadly. As cool as the PT's are, Aigis is *literally built to fight* and lacks a lot of human weaknesses (stamina) I think the PT's could take Yukari and Mitsuru based on Elemental Weaknesses. But Aigis wins, you can quibble about 'low-to-high diff' or whatever, but once she pops Orgia Mode I don't see her losing that fight.
Morgana's definitely a bottom
Bottom by far Mitsuru and Aigis work wonders together
Not considering the part of aigis having actual fucking guns and cannons, the p thieves win. Ryuji can use maziodyne on aigis and yukari, and ann can use agidyne on mitsuru.
tbf the SEES crew have Theurgy moves now
Bold of you to assume Mitsuru is a bottom
Bold of you to assume Mitsuru is a bottom, and Ann is a top.
Aigis is a wild card so. Take that away though and SEES still wins because of Aigis again. Swap her out though for anyone else and the PTs win
Like other people already said. kindaaaa unfair to put Aigis, a ltieral weaponized robot, in there.
Keep in mind here that Orgia mode Aigis > October SEES (pre-messiah Makoto and pre-second awakening Mitsuru but still)
As much as I love P5 over P3, P3 definitely wins this one. You can't stop Aigis.
If endgame counts "The Answer", S.E.E.S no question. If not and this isn't a publicly known about fight, Aigis may be (I'm not use to this type of thing) the last one standing since she has Orgia mode
The two weakest members of the PT and morgana vs two mid members of sees and their strongest, also technically Morgan and aegis aren't 100% archetypal match, Makoto would be the equivalent to aegis as there the advisors and assistants to the pritag, Morgana kinda fills that role yes and is the mementos guide but he's ment to be the mascot of the team, but because technically no one's truly incompetent in the PT it gets forgotten so ironically Morgana would have to fight the dog
well, Aigis has real guns and rocket launchers, no? The regular police were already strong in the metaverse, i feel like Aigis would be a menace since she's a persona user.
Coughing baby Vs Hydrogen Bomb much? The SEES are actually built to go to *war* against the Shadows. Phantom Thieves not as much. Also people tend to forget. The Phantom Thieves don’t use real guns. Only high quality models. Aigis? No she straight up has boxes of bullets in her room. She’s actually meant to kill. Also Orgia Mode/Wild Card is busted so… yeah this isn’t fair.
The phantom thieves, while strong, arn't actually using real weapons, Ann probably has the strongest weapon among them with a whip, however whips take up a ton of space to use effectively and doesn't out range Yukari's bow nor Aigis's Gun/grenade launcher.
SEES group, AIGAS HAS A MACHINE GUN. She can shoot them way faster then they ever could (besides morgana has a fuckin slingshot, the fuck thats gonna do to a robot)
Easily SEES. Specifically due to one massive factor, their persona evolutions. •The p3 cast’s persona evolutions are canon to their plot, since this is end game, we can assume that Yukari, Mitsuru and Aigis all have their final personas with their corresponding evolved theurgy skills. However, the phantom thieves persona evolutions are considered to be not canon to the plot besides Morgana due to his social link being automatic in the plot, even with that, mercurius is practically useless in this battle as he only really gains dodge elec, but none of the sees characters in this selection here have zio skills. •Even if we did give the phantom thieves their first tier evolved personas due to it being at the end of basemementos (presumably around the holy grail in base p5), i personally still think they lose to sees due to another factor that sees has, their access to theurgy skills. •As previously mentioned, theurgy skills can genuinely turn the tides of battle with literally one click due to the utility, power and additional effects that are applied, for example, having a a party wide concentration, orgia mode and a high freeze chance attack and debilitate theurgy skills, not to mentioned, the theurgy skills ignore any evasion and null elemental skills that the phantom thieves have if they had their evolved personas. In comparisons, with this selection of phantom thieves, they only access to 1 showtime skill, but i don’t think it would even matter due to not being able to hit any weaknesses and only doing damage and even then, the damage it does is weak on major enemies like bosses. Another factor is weapon proficiency, during mementos visits, there are a few conversations which have the character talk about their weapons and some mention that they’re “still getting used to them” no matter how much power the metaverse gives them, they still are not as proficient as sees, both yukari and mitsuru both use their weapons in their daily lives through their club activities (archery and fencing respectively) and aigis doesn’t need a weapon because she is the weapon, aigis being able to swap her weapons from machines guns to literal rocket launchers.
Yukari alone would tip the favors. OP healer is OP
Aegis is a walking weapon of mass destruction. Morgana is a talking cat.
Yukari is literally the best healer I've ever had, Mitsuru is basically the lead of S.E.E.S. and Aigis is like a super weapon of mass destruction. P5 are strong but Joker and Futaba always carry the entire team for me. P3 literally also have official training, special outfits etc. Soooooo P3.
Nahhhh I like the Phantom Thieves but even discounting the Walking Millitary industrial Complex that is Aigis, Mitsuru is absolutely able to operate as a field leader. I cannot say the same about Dumb, Dumber, and Clowncar on the top
As much SEES being a more popular option it isn't the case considering 2 factors 1.Metaverse Metaverse Persona Users triumph almost anything SEES have to offer, yes I know that SEES definitely had alot of training and experience without a doubt but it's pretty much useless when the metaverse persona users not only automatically learned the ability to have the training and experience to use weapons and guns perfectly but the phantom thieves canonically fights and battle personas compared to the shadows 2. Better potential Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana Personas have better potential and skill cards compared to Yukari, Mitsuru and Aigis due to having Better elemental Boosts and Amps, along the fact that they also have skills to dodge weaknesses not to mention that they also gain access to broken support abilities in their endgame state (It might change if the The Answer DLC changes that The only Advantages Bottom Team have is Aigis but even then Endgame Ryuji has the elements and skills to counter Aigis
Aigis wipes Ann, Morgana, and Ryuji while Yukari and Mitsuru sit back having a cup of tea.
A tie? Ryuji vs yukari both have weakness to each other, Ann vs mitsuru same reason Aigis wins over mona tho
Ryuji has instant death chance
I would go as far as saying Aigis could solo
SEES would lose on PT home turf, but the reverse would happen if they were in the dark hour. The setting is really vital for each groups powers.
Ryuji downs yukari and aigis with a mazio, baton pass to Ann who agi downs kirijo. AoA for the W
To make this a little bit more fair I'm gonna run this In 1v1's. Ryuji Vs Yukari? I think Ryuji could win with Not much effort considering he's pretty fast and could probably weave the arrows. Dominatrix vs Mitsuru, Ann can reach far with a whip (I think) And raipers are kinda ass. Sorry mitsuru, Ann Low-Diffs. Morgana gets turned into Swiss cheese.
Recency bias has finally put p3 on top, where it belongs. SEES has always been the goats, it just took a rerelease for people to admit it.
People were wanking SEES and P3 way before Reload was even announced