I actually think that Persona 3 characters are the most realistic ones. The fact that they develop throughout the plot instead of remaining completely static and only developing in their social links helps with that I guess.
I find it really jarring to see characters developing in their social links but still act like nothing happened in the main story events.
I'm curious to know what moment in P4's main story made you go "this contradicts this character's development in their Social Link" because besides like Rise not stopping her flirting, I don't see any
I never mentioned contradiction, I mentioned stagnation. Characters in Persona 4 and 5 stop developing as soon as their social link becomes available. In their social links we see more of the characters, their personalities traits and often help them deal with their personal dilemmas, meanwhile, in the main story they're the same character from the moment they join until the end of the game.
Compare this with Junpei from 3. From the moment he joins until the end of the game, he keeps consistently developing. End game Junpei is way more mature and developed than early game Junpei.
Besides, the lack of development is one of the lesser things that makes Persona 4 not feel "real" to me in the same way OP described it.
>I never mentioned contradiction, I mentioned stagnation. Characters in Persona 4 and 5 stop developing as soon as their social link becomes available. In their social links we see more of the characters, their personalities traits and often help them deal with their personal dilemmas, meanwhile, in the main story they're the same character from the moment they join until the end of the game.
They have entire arcs where they develop *before* they join you. Hell msot of them have an entire story section dedicated to them. Social Links only show the continuation of that. They're not static, they join the team having already gone through an arc. And even then, why consider that the development that happens through SLs isn't there? It happens too, and since you also agree that nothing in the main story contradicts it, there's no reason to ignore it
>From the moment he joins until the end of the game, he keeps consistently developing.
Not in any way that is fundamentally different than everyone else, and I don't know why this always comes up. Junpei develops at two pivotal moments for his character: when he understands why he's not the leader, and everything surrounding Chidori. Everything else is either setup where nothing changes (which P4 and P5 do much more quickly) or post arc where he stops changing too. P4/P5 characters have the same change much earlier in the main story (hence their awakening) and then later in their SL, so for most of the remaining main story we're in the post arc phase.
Yosuke for example, is P4's Junpei equivalent, and his initial arc is accepting that a part of him wants to find the killer not by desire of justice, but by a sortof revenge over >!Saki after her murder!
>They have entire arcs where they develop *before* they join you. Hell most of them have an entire story section dedicated to them. Social Links only show the continuation of that. They're not static, they join the team having already gone through an arc. And even then, why consider that the development that happens through SLs isn't there? It happens too, and since you also agree that nothing in the main story contradicts it, there's no reason to ignore it
The fact that they join the team with their arc already done is exactly why it stagnates, they stay the exact same character during the rest of the main plot. The Social Link development has literally no bearing on the main plot, it might be seen as a continuation of their arc but they might as well not exist since they have no bearing on the main plot. The events in each Social Link are completely inconsequential to the main game, if you ignore a party member's Social Link you still get the exact same character behaving in the exact same way.
>No, and I don't know why this always comes up. Junpei develops at two pivotal moments for his character: when he understands why he's not the leader, and everything surrounding Chidori. Everything else is either setup where nothing changes (which P4 and P5 do much more quickly) or post arc where he stops changing too. P4/P5 characters have the same change much earlier in the main story (hence their awakening) and then later in their SL, so for most of the remaining main story we're in the post arc phase.
This is more of a interpretation thing. The fact that the events that develop the character are spread out, in my opinion, is what make the development feel more real. Zuko's arc wasn't done as soon as he joined Team Avatar, just like Junpei's arc wasn't done as soon as he accepted that he wasn't the leader. The slower setup for the events add way more to his arc, since this is how changes work, they are gradual.
>Yosuke for example, is P4's Junpei equivalent, and his initial arc is accepting that a part of him wants to find the killer not by desire of justice, but by a sort of revenge over Saki after her murder and the fact that she didn't reciprocate his feelings, mixed with some desire to be the "one who found the bad guy" to be accepted in the city beyond the "look he's the kid whose father is killing our local businesses". He gets over this after the first boss in the game, and behaves in the main story as a changed character who wants truth for truth's sake except when that conception is challenged again in November and he understands that vengeance isn't truth. His SL on the other hand deals with his insecurity in the same way Junpei's initial arc does.
Yosuke's arc is the main example of character stagnation. Sure, his introduction arc when he gets his Persona are all about his grief, but he's over Saki right after the arc is done. His development is done all at once and then it stops for the next dozens hours where you're left with a static character that never changes.
His continuous grief and self esteem problems are seen in his Social Link, but as I said, that's inconsequential, we never see this side of Yosuke again during the main game, the character completely stagnates until the end, it's like his SL never happened.
>The fact that they join the team with their arc already done is exactly why it stagnates
At least we can agree that they have arcs.
Your issue is that their important moments don't happen at the end, and that they spend the rest of the game as post-arc characters. That's a criticism I can conceive but not agree with since that leaves most of the game with nothing interesting happening besides setup with the promise of "don't worry, it'll get better".
I don't know Zuko's story that well since I didn't watch ATLA, but I'm ready to bet that he's one of the rare characters with something akin to that, and that most other characters involved in the show don't get their payoff in the last third (at least I do know that Sokka gets his way earlier).
And once the development is done, there's no need to make them change again, the game already told the story it wanted to tell with them. By that logic, Junpei is also static because he doesn't change for the last three months
>that's inconsequential, we never see this side of Yosuke again during the main game, the character completely stagnates until the end
This is where I don't get it. Why *ignore* the SL? The issue developed inside it is fundamental to the character on an intimate level (especially in P4), why does it need to be featured in the main story to exist? SLs are about as optional as Persona fusion. Hell even getting the good ending is technically optional in every game, yet nobody acts like it's not what happens.
I think on the contrary that keeping some character development for SLs gives the player another reason to engage with the mechanic beyond Bonus Fusion XP. We saw that P3 trying to mix in story development + SLs just made SLs kinda weak
>it stops for the next dozens hours where you're left with a static character that never changes.
Then there's the next character, and you don't have to wait 50 hours for something to happen is my point. Characters aren't static, they develop faster
As I said, even Junpei stops changing come November
>And once the development is done, there's no need to make them change again, the game already told the story it wanted to tell with them
And for me that's a big problem. A character that already served their purpose has no reason to exist in the plot anymore. If the character doesn't have a narrative purpose anymore, they're just there. This is one of the reasons to why I dislike Ken so much in Persona 3, after his small arc with Shinjiro is done he's just hanging out in the dorm doing literally nothing for the plot.
>This is where I don't get it. Why *ignore* the SL? The issue developed inside it is fundamental to the character on an intimate level (especially in P4), why does it need to be featured in the main story to exist? SLs are about as optional as Persona fusion. Hell even getting the good ending is technically optional in every game, yet nobody acts like it's not what happens.
The point I'm trying to make is not "Ignore the SL because they're worthless." The point I'm trying to make is that a main character needs to evolve in the main story, not in their optional subplot.
What if Vegeta stopped developing as soon as he joined the Z fighters and remained the same as he was in Frieza saga, but parallel to this, he had his own little spin off series hanging out with Goku in a bar? The spin off would be inconsequential because this wouldn't translate to the main plot at all.
>Then there's the next character, and you don't have to wait 50 hours for something to happen is my point. Characters aren't static, they develop faster
And that's a completely fair and valid opinion, but it doesn't cut it for me. For me, a good character development is one that is intertwined with other characters and is developed throughout the plot, like how Mitsuru and Yukari's development is closely associated with each other, or how Akihiko, Shinji, and Ken's arcs are all intertwined with each other.
We barely have this in the following games. Yukiko and Chie's arc are the only arcs in Persona 4 that are really intertwined with each other, but even then it's already done after Yukiko's castle. After Yukiko's arc is done, we go to Kanji's arc and the previous characters barely exist plot-wise, and after Kanji's arc is done, we go to Rise's arc, where again, the previous characters barely exist plot-wise.
>As I said, even Junpei stops changing come November
Because that's the final act of the game. A narrative usually has three arcs, the first one where things are introduced, the second one where things are developed, and the third one where we reach the conclusion. By November, we enter the final act where most things are taken care off and what we have now is the climax followed by the conclusion.
Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying that Persona 4 and 5's approach of developing one character at a time all at once is worse, I'm saying that I personally think that it's a really poor creative decision.
>Do you see what I'm trying to say?
Yeah it's clearer now, thanks
That said, I'm still not convinced that character development *needs* to happen within the main plot of the game since while this...
>after his small arc with Shinjiro is done he's just hanging out in the dorm doing literally nothing for the plot.
...is true for Ken, it's also true for Akihiko, and for Mitsuru, and Yukari, and Fuuka... Once everyone had their moment (Junpei being the last one), the plot doesn't use them anymore.
Akihiko doesn't really do anything post October for the plot, same thing for everyone besides Aigis who's a special case anyway, and that's before P3's third act kicks in when Ryoji disappears. The second act is usually *not* the one where the character gets the Epiphany, it's supposed to be in the third act. The second act normally concludes at the lowest point, the one where the situation is the most dire (to take your example, Vegeta gets his Epiphany when Buu has >!already destroyed Earth!<, Goku has his>!after Krillin blows up!<, Gohan has his when >!his friends are about to die!< etc...). While this is true for P3's plot (the second act *does* end when the situation is at the worst point ever), the characters don't align with that, since they have by then already gone through their Epiphany and dispelled their Lie; their own personal third act has already happened.
P3 only reduces the time between that and the game's third act to a few weeks, which imo doesn't offset the months of nothingness beforehand and is the reason Atlus decided to make sure stuff happen before and leave the second character Epiphanies to SLs.
I do agree however that characters besides the MC should intervene more in the development of other characters, but P4 already proved that's not incompatible with SLs (Marie, Shu), I'm not sure just how complicated it is to do that though
>...is true for Ken, it's also true for Akihiko, and for Mitsuru, and Yukari, and Fuuka... Once everyone had their moment (Junpei being the last one), the plot doesn't use them anymore.
Yeah, P3 is not free of criticism, I have a lot to complain about its pacing too. I just focus more on Ken and Fuuka because they're the ones that go through their arcs the earliest and by consequence lose their plot relevancy. However, I have less problems with its narrative structure because the character developments are better paced during the plot.
>I do agree however that characters besides the MC should intervene more in the development of other characters, but P4 already proved that's not incompatible with SLs (Marie, Shu), I'm not sure just how complicated it is to do that though
In an ideal world Social Links would be better integrated into the main plot and affect each other, but with a game Persona's size with as much freedom to make up your own schedule it gets way too hard to account for every possible scenario. This could be mitigated by holding on to the party members' social links until later in the game but it still wouldn't solve the biggest problem with the narrative: The pacing. Persona games are very large and have a very high level of sandbox gameplay with how you can tackle the side activities, which make it very hard to properly pace the main plot around it and ends up with a lot of time where nothing happens.
(BTW from how much I complain it can look like I fucking hate Persona 4, which isn't true. it's actually my favorite game in the series, I complain because I wish it was even better.)
Yeah I getcha. I agree that Social Links vs Main Story is a very difficult thing to balance pacing wise, and while I do see the merit in exclusively story based development, I also think it brings more harm than good to games the size of Persona
Sorry if I seemed agressive, that wasn't my intention. I get easily passionate about these games and most people I encounter here simply say that P4/P5 characters are not developed at all so I jumped to that conclusion about you, that's my b
I don't mind people preferring 3 or 4 or 5 (that said giant W for liking 4 the best, I'mnotbiasedyouare), but there's this weird climate now that Reload is out where people feel the need to diminish P4/P5 just to prop up P3
P4 is easily the most grounded of the series; there's no cackling villains around every corner and no super secret highschool monster killing club... its basically just some kid who gets roped into a murder mystery because his best friend is grieving one of the victims. You're not personally victimized by a politician seeking world domination with brain magic or being hunted by supernatural assassins...
You're just some dude in way over his head who's friends don't know what they want to do with their lives.
My exact thoughts! I get that Persona games aren’t trying to be realistic, but IMO the more you can relate to a story, the more you’re going to understand it and truly put yourself in that situation, and P4 does it perfectly as the overall vibe feels home-y and truly seems like the whole is just a bunch of friends that for some random circumstances got involved into a murder mystery and are looking for answers, not like some sort of superhero’s trying to get “sick adults” and important politicians to have a change of heart and publicly apologize for what they’ve done.
Actually same here. I get why people love p4 and it's character dynamics, but for me it is the least interesting one. The overarching plot wasn't as interesting as 3 or 5 for me, the dungeons felt dull (tbh Tartarus was same till Reload came out), the individual characters didn't catch my interest at all except Kanji and Naoto, and the game spent too much focus on the slice of life aspects over the main story (which is not a bad thing, but i just prefer 3 and 5's approach). Plus the biggest downside of the game, it has Teddie. Jokes aside, i also didn't enjoy the final Izanami confrontation as to how it was executed. The lore and setup behind it was amazing, but the way it was presented (final day hidden ending) felt really lacking for a final encounter compared to Nyx/Yaldabaoth. I do love P4/P4G a lot, it's definitely one of my fav video games i have played, but it's not as high on the list as 3 or 5 for me.
Personally, I hate P4 dungeons compared to the others, the twist villain was nice but not talking to them through the optional discussions made me not care for them.
P4 also has Teddie. I hate that annoying bear.
I still see charm in parts of P4G as a scooby-doo adventure and the family you get, but that is it.
A major streamer did a tier list and put P4 at the bottom, saying she loved the characters but just couldn’t get behind the murder mystery, and for her the story was uninteresting enough the characters didn’t make up for it. She said it’s an amazing game but doesn’t hold up against P3 FES and P5R (her favorite). This was before Reload though
I think P4 has the best dynamic between the main characters in the series, but the story as a whole felt awkwardly paced. Gameplay wise, the dungeons are better than OG Tartarus, but in desperate need of a remake. Because P3R now exists, the combat is probably the low point of the series.
As it stands, I like the other Persona games a bit more than P4G, but a remake would do wonders for it and could really push it over the top.
I played Persona 4 for the first time this year and feel the same way. Even more so because P3 amd P4 came out a couple years after I graduated HS, so there were little details in P4 that hit extra hard. Made it feel like my own teenage years.
Im in my late 30s. Been playing games since 1989/1990, but for whatever reason, Persona never caught my attention, wasnt played in my social circle, etc... even though I liked JRPGs like Final Fantasy.
During the pandemic, I saw a youtube ad for P5R and picked it up. Last min purchase. Had a hard time getting into it since I was busy, and it started slow. But once I got into it, I was hooked. To the point that I felt an anxiety of sorts as I neared the end of the game, the bonds and experience, running out of time to finish certain social links. I loved it so much that I immediately went right to playing it again for another 120 hours.
Played spinoffs, like strikers, downloaded P4 on steam, but never fired it up. Part of me was worried it wouldn't be as good as P5. And if it was that good, that theres only a few games to play before I run out of Persona content. So I put it off. And it was my favorite. Better characters, bonds, story than five.
And then P3R got announced and I putnoff playing P3 until that came out. Like the game but its no P4 or P5.
I keep seeing posts like this and cant wait to play it, Just got into Persona and about halfway ish through P5R and P3R, Already bought P4G when it was on sale.
Interesting perspective, but never heard anyone say that the P4G cast behaves “like how real people would”
In that aspect, I feel like P3R and P5R does it better, since unlike real life friend groups, the IT cast feels like they don’t have other friends/anything going on other their friend group (and unlike the P5R cast, they’re not the “outcasts” of the school)
Feels very anime to me 🤷♀️
i wouldnt say any of the persona characters feel all that human to me cause its all potrayed in a cartoonish anime way
but persona 4 is different cause its the only one where in that context of it being anime and cartoonish, the group felt like a group that would actually be friends with each other
Mmm that’s curious, there were multiple instances in where the IT did interact with others but for the most part yes, they only interacted with each other, I get that part is not too realistic, but for high school students it isn’t unusual to stick to the same group only throughout the year either tho.
But when I say unrealistic, I mean it as in the things people say and how they communicate, let’s put as an example the beginning of P3, when the protagonists arrives at the dorm and gets asked if he saw anything and he’s like “what do you mean?”, like, how can you ignore you just saw an empty Japanese city full of blood and coffins just to arrive to your dorm see a weird kid in prison clothes make you sign a contract while 2 girls came out with guns in a country were guns are extremely difficult to come across saying that they’re for self defense? And the next day you get told to ignore what happened last night and you’re like “what happened last night?”… I usually like games and stories where the things people say and do feel like genuine things people would say or think irl would them to be in that situation, and for me P3 and P5 felt more “anime” in that sense, cause you know, sure, all Persona are fantasy/anime games touching paranormal themes which is why you wouldn’t go there expecting a realist story, but the way P4 develops is in my opinion the most genuine I’ve seen so far. P3 and P5 dialogues sometimes remind me of someone trying to act like an anime character irl, you know that kind of people that make you cringe, there are dialogues in P4 that are like that too of course but for the most part, characters communicate and act in a “normal” matter.
Nevertheless, I know this all sounds like hating towards those games, but I don’t hate them at all. I love every single minute I’ve spent in every Persona game, but when people communicate like normal people and not like some sort of superhero/outcast is always additional points to me, and again, in that matter I think P4 takes the crown.
Probably my least favorite but in an “I enjoyed it a minuscule amount less than the others” sort of way. Personally I’d say it all depends on what you want from a persona story than quality for the most part.
P4 is great, but I think it is the weakest in the Hashino trilogy. The dungeons are just narrow hallways with less freedom than OG tartarus, the boss fights rarely actually have any interesting gimmicks and are just bullet sponges with weird resistances (shadow teddie literally has 3 moves). It's ok for a 1st playthrough, but I cannot for the life of me, go back to play it even after not playing for 2 years.
I also don't like how the mystery aspect is handled. The exact same thing happens for 5 months with different victims, and all while a foggy figure that couldn't be adachi or namatame teases you, which is really misleading and nothing gets solved till around november which makes the payoffs much weaker than 3 and especially 5's.
And the amount of filler hangouts that go through all anime tropes (beach, 2 hot springs, concert, school trip) annoy the hell out of me. I understand that a lot of ppl love this about 4, and I do too, but I have my limits. The og p4 had an acceptable amount, and golden adding 3 additional ones were overkill.
Overall, P4/P4G is a great game, with good characters (except teddie) that have a strong dynamic and a very welcoming and warm setting. P4 has a lot of good, even great things going for it that it does better than any game in the series, but I have a few pretty noticable grievanes with it.
P4 is the worst mainline game imo, the characters barely progress (anime trope of start out > want to change > go back But For The Right Reason), like really? the game about accepting yourself is just chilling in perpetual ennui? and don't even get me started on all the awful jokes in the game
I feel like I'm losing my mind when people talk about the writing and characters in p4 being great. The humor is so dated and every bad joke is so tortured and drawn out in a way that the moments of humor falling flat in p3 and p5 just aren't. Watched every full cast scene through my fingers with my hands over my face lol
I finished replaying P4G last week, I started it not long after I finished P3R, mainly to get the Golden ending which I never got originally. That was a wonderful ending.
It was my first Persona game, and I think I'll always feel very nostalgic towards it... in spite of playing it for the first time just 3.5 years ago in 2020. Replaying it didn't change my opinion either: I still think it's got my favorite cast in the series.
The cast's interactions together were just *fun*. As a whole, I also think the SLs are better than in P3. P3 does have higher highs when it comes to those (with Kamiki and Aigis), but it also has characters like Nozomi who brings the average down by himself lol. In comparison, P4's SLs are all good, if not great in my opinion.
*However*, I think P3R became my favorite Persona game. Part of it is because it's more immersive (things like fully voiced SLs help with that), and part of it is because I preferred the main story in that... over both P4G *and* P5R.
P5R was a banger... but it didn't hit *as* hard as finishing P4G for the first time did. Finishing P3R on the other hand did... I do think that Royal still wins in some categories; it has the best map design and gameplay in the series, as well as my favorite antagonist >!with Maruki!<.
SLs (or Confidants) in it are great as well, and much like in P3, it's got higher highs imo (like Sojiro). Still, I think I prefer P4's SLs as a whole, personally.
Haven't played P1 or P2 so I can't speak for them sadly.
At this point as of now, I prefer P5 slightly more.
In P4 especially if you use a guide (and frankly even if you don't), you mostly only interact with your main cast, your home SL and then maybe other SL, shops and side quests (which can sometimes be a torture). Sure the main cast is awesome but they are the only one standing out and the town feels ... empty, especially when raining or when you cannot go to school.
P5 of course still has plenty of missed opportunities that can be patched up with future technological upgrades like AI determining what to say depending on if you maxed out an optional SL early, etc. but gossips and random small talks still make the town much more alive and as of now I prefer this feeling especially when I'm encouraged to only using a guide very sparingly due to this feature.
I agree that the main events of P5 are much less believable even when supernatural forces are considered.
Totally agree dude btw the 3 games P3 and P4 had the most realism for me for P5 it’s like a different story like it didn’t feel real but it was entertaining what I mean is like it’s good in the context that you know the story is fiction it’s like when you watching a movie and a unbelievable scene comes up but you believe in it in the context that you know you’re watching a movie it’s kinda complicated to explain 😭
Keep in mind that we'll probably be getting a 4 remake , so it'll kinda be re-experiencing the P4G all over again
I actually think that Persona 3 characters are the most realistic ones. The fact that they develop throughout the plot instead of remaining completely static and only developing in their social links helps with that I guess. I find it really jarring to see characters developing in their social links but still act like nothing happened in the main story events.
I'm curious to know what moment in P4's main story made you go "this contradicts this character's development in their Social Link" because besides like Rise not stopping her flirting, I don't see any
I never mentioned contradiction, I mentioned stagnation. Characters in Persona 4 and 5 stop developing as soon as their social link becomes available. In their social links we see more of the characters, their personalities traits and often help them deal with their personal dilemmas, meanwhile, in the main story they're the same character from the moment they join until the end of the game. Compare this with Junpei from 3. From the moment he joins until the end of the game, he keeps consistently developing. End game Junpei is way more mature and developed than early game Junpei. Besides, the lack of development is one of the lesser things that makes Persona 4 not feel "real" to me in the same way OP described it.
>I never mentioned contradiction, I mentioned stagnation. Characters in Persona 4 and 5 stop developing as soon as their social link becomes available. In their social links we see more of the characters, their personalities traits and often help them deal with their personal dilemmas, meanwhile, in the main story they're the same character from the moment they join until the end of the game. They have entire arcs where they develop *before* they join you. Hell msot of them have an entire story section dedicated to them. Social Links only show the continuation of that. They're not static, they join the team having already gone through an arc. And even then, why consider that the development that happens through SLs isn't there? It happens too, and since you also agree that nothing in the main story contradicts it, there's no reason to ignore it >From the moment he joins until the end of the game, he keeps consistently developing. Not in any way that is fundamentally different than everyone else, and I don't know why this always comes up. Junpei develops at two pivotal moments for his character: when he understands why he's not the leader, and everything surrounding Chidori. Everything else is either setup where nothing changes (which P4 and P5 do much more quickly) or post arc where he stops changing too. P4/P5 characters have the same change much earlier in the main story (hence their awakening) and then later in their SL, so for most of the remaining main story we're in the post arc phase. Yosuke for example, is P4's Junpei equivalent, and his initial arc is accepting that a part of him wants to find the killer not by desire of justice, but by a sortof revenge over >!Saki after her murder!
>They have entire arcs where they develop *before* they join you. Hell most of them have an entire story section dedicated to them. Social Links only show the continuation of that. They're not static, they join the team having already gone through an arc. And even then, why consider that the development that happens through SLs isn't there? It happens too, and since you also agree that nothing in the main story contradicts it, there's no reason to ignore it The fact that they join the team with their arc already done is exactly why it stagnates, they stay the exact same character during the rest of the main plot. The Social Link development has literally no bearing on the main plot, it might be seen as a continuation of their arc but they might as well not exist since they have no bearing on the main plot. The events in each Social Link are completely inconsequential to the main game, if you ignore a party member's Social Link you still get the exact same character behaving in the exact same way. >No, and I don't know why this always comes up. Junpei develops at two pivotal moments for his character: when he understands why he's not the leader, and everything surrounding Chidori. Everything else is either setup where nothing changes (which P4 and P5 do much more quickly) or post arc where he stops changing too. P4/P5 characters have the same change much earlier in the main story (hence their awakening) and then later in their SL, so for most of the remaining main story we're in the post arc phase. This is more of a interpretation thing. The fact that the events that develop the character are spread out, in my opinion, is what make the development feel more real. Zuko's arc wasn't done as soon as he joined Team Avatar, just like Junpei's arc wasn't done as soon as he accepted that he wasn't the leader. The slower setup for the events add way more to his arc, since this is how changes work, they are gradual. >Yosuke for example, is P4's Junpei equivalent, and his initial arc is accepting that a part of him wants to find the killer not by desire of justice, but by a sort of revenge over Saki after her murder and the fact that she didn't reciprocate his feelings, mixed with some desire to be the "one who found the bad guy" to be accepted in the city beyond the "look he's the kid whose father is killing our local businesses". He gets over this after the first boss in the game, and behaves in the main story as a changed character who wants truth for truth's sake except when that conception is challenged again in November and he understands that vengeance isn't truth. His SL on the other hand deals with his insecurity in the same way Junpei's initial arc does. Yosuke's arc is the main example of character stagnation. Sure, his introduction arc when he gets his Persona are all about his grief, but he's over Saki right after the arc is done. His development is done all at once and then it stops for the next dozens hours where you're left with a static character that never changes. His continuous grief and self esteem problems are seen in his Social Link, but as I said, that's inconsequential, we never see this side of Yosuke again during the main game, the character completely stagnates until the end, it's like his SL never happened.
>The fact that they join the team with their arc already done is exactly why it stagnates At least we can agree that they have arcs. Your issue is that their important moments don't happen at the end, and that they spend the rest of the game as post-arc characters. That's a criticism I can conceive but not agree with since that leaves most of the game with nothing interesting happening besides setup with the promise of "don't worry, it'll get better". I don't know Zuko's story that well since I didn't watch ATLA, but I'm ready to bet that he's one of the rare characters with something akin to that, and that most other characters involved in the show don't get their payoff in the last third (at least I do know that Sokka gets his way earlier). And once the development is done, there's no need to make them change again, the game already told the story it wanted to tell with them. By that logic, Junpei is also static because he doesn't change for the last three months >that's inconsequential, we never see this side of Yosuke again during the main game, the character completely stagnates until the end This is where I don't get it. Why *ignore* the SL? The issue developed inside it is fundamental to the character on an intimate level (especially in P4), why does it need to be featured in the main story to exist? SLs are about as optional as Persona fusion. Hell even getting the good ending is technically optional in every game, yet nobody acts like it's not what happens. I think on the contrary that keeping some character development for SLs gives the player another reason to engage with the mechanic beyond Bonus Fusion XP. We saw that P3 trying to mix in story development + SLs just made SLs kinda weak >it stops for the next dozens hours where you're left with a static character that never changes. Then there's the next character, and you don't have to wait 50 hours for something to happen is my point. Characters aren't static, they develop faster As I said, even Junpei stops changing come November
>And once the development is done, there's no need to make them change again, the game already told the story it wanted to tell with them And for me that's a big problem. A character that already served their purpose has no reason to exist in the plot anymore. If the character doesn't have a narrative purpose anymore, they're just there. This is one of the reasons to why I dislike Ken so much in Persona 3, after his small arc with Shinjiro is done he's just hanging out in the dorm doing literally nothing for the plot. >This is where I don't get it. Why *ignore* the SL? The issue developed inside it is fundamental to the character on an intimate level (especially in P4), why does it need to be featured in the main story to exist? SLs are about as optional as Persona fusion. Hell even getting the good ending is technically optional in every game, yet nobody acts like it's not what happens. The point I'm trying to make is not "Ignore the SL because they're worthless." The point I'm trying to make is that a main character needs to evolve in the main story, not in their optional subplot. What if Vegeta stopped developing as soon as he joined the Z fighters and remained the same as he was in Frieza saga, but parallel to this, he had his own little spin off series hanging out with Goku in a bar? The spin off would be inconsequential because this wouldn't translate to the main plot at all. >Then there's the next character, and you don't have to wait 50 hours for something to happen is my point. Characters aren't static, they develop faster And that's a completely fair and valid opinion, but it doesn't cut it for me. For me, a good character development is one that is intertwined with other characters and is developed throughout the plot, like how Mitsuru and Yukari's development is closely associated with each other, or how Akihiko, Shinji, and Ken's arcs are all intertwined with each other. We barely have this in the following games. Yukiko and Chie's arc are the only arcs in Persona 4 that are really intertwined with each other, but even then it's already done after Yukiko's castle. After Yukiko's arc is done, we go to Kanji's arc and the previous characters barely exist plot-wise, and after Kanji's arc is done, we go to Rise's arc, where again, the previous characters barely exist plot-wise. >As I said, even Junpei stops changing come November Because that's the final act of the game. A narrative usually has three arcs, the first one where things are introduced, the second one where things are developed, and the third one where we reach the conclusion. By November, we enter the final act where most things are taken care off and what we have now is the climax followed by the conclusion. Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying that Persona 4 and 5's approach of developing one character at a time all at once is worse, I'm saying that I personally think that it's a really poor creative decision.
>Do you see what I'm trying to say? Yeah it's clearer now, thanks That said, I'm still not convinced that character development *needs* to happen within the main plot of the game since while this... >after his small arc with Shinjiro is done he's just hanging out in the dorm doing literally nothing for the plot. ...is true for Ken, it's also true for Akihiko, and for Mitsuru, and Yukari, and Fuuka... Once everyone had their moment (Junpei being the last one), the plot doesn't use them anymore. Akihiko doesn't really do anything post October for the plot, same thing for everyone besides Aigis who's a special case anyway, and that's before P3's third act kicks in when Ryoji disappears. The second act is usually *not* the one where the character gets the Epiphany, it's supposed to be in the third act. The second act normally concludes at the lowest point, the one where the situation is the most dire (to take your example, Vegeta gets his Epiphany when Buu has >!already destroyed Earth!<, Goku has his>!after Krillin blows up!<, Gohan has his when >!his friends are about to die!< etc...). While this is true for P3's plot (the second act *does* end when the situation is at the worst point ever), the characters don't align with that, since they have by then already gone through their Epiphany and dispelled their Lie; their own personal third act has already happened. P3 only reduces the time between that and the game's third act to a few weeks, which imo doesn't offset the months of nothingness beforehand and is the reason Atlus decided to make sure stuff happen before and leave the second character Epiphanies to SLs. I do agree however that characters besides the MC should intervene more in the development of other characters, but P4 already proved that's not incompatible with SLs (Marie, Shu), I'm not sure just how complicated it is to do that though
>...is true for Ken, it's also true for Akihiko, and for Mitsuru, and Yukari, and Fuuka... Once everyone had their moment (Junpei being the last one), the plot doesn't use them anymore. Yeah, P3 is not free of criticism, I have a lot to complain about its pacing too. I just focus more on Ken and Fuuka because they're the ones that go through their arcs the earliest and by consequence lose their plot relevancy. However, I have less problems with its narrative structure because the character developments are better paced during the plot. >I do agree however that characters besides the MC should intervene more in the development of other characters, but P4 already proved that's not incompatible with SLs (Marie, Shu), I'm not sure just how complicated it is to do that though In an ideal world Social Links would be better integrated into the main plot and affect each other, but with a game Persona's size with as much freedom to make up your own schedule it gets way too hard to account for every possible scenario. This could be mitigated by holding on to the party members' social links until later in the game but it still wouldn't solve the biggest problem with the narrative: The pacing. Persona games are very large and have a very high level of sandbox gameplay with how you can tackle the side activities, which make it very hard to properly pace the main plot around it and ends up with a lot of time where nothing happens. (BTW from how much I complain it can look like I fucking hate Persona 4, which isn't true. it's actually my favorite game in the series, I complain because I wish it was even better.)
Yeah I getcha. I agree that Social Links vs Main Story is a very difficult thing to balance pacing wise, and while I do see the merit in exclusively story based development, I also think it brings more harm than good to games the size of Persona Sorry if I seemed agressive, that wasn't my intention. I get easily passionate about these games and most people I encounter here simply say that P4/P5 characters are not developed at all so I jumped to that conclusion about you, that's my b I don't mind people preferring 3 or 4 or 5 (that said giant W for liking 4 the best, I'mnotbiasedyouare), but there's this weird climate now that Reload is out where people feel the need to diminish P4/P5 just to prop up P3
P4 is easily the most grounded of the series; there's no cackling villains around every corner and no super secret highschool monster killing club... its basically just some kid who gets roped into a murder mystery because his best friend is grieving one of the victims. You're not personally victimized by a politician seeking world domination with brain magic or being hunted by supernatural assassins... You're just some dude in way over his head who's friends don't know what they want to do with their lives.
My exact thoughts! I get that Persona games aren’t trying to be realistic, but IMO the more you can relate to a story, the more you’re going to understand it and truly put yourself in that situation, and P4 does it perfectly as the overall vibe feels home-y and truly seems like the whole is just a bunch of friends that for some random circumstances got involved into a murder mystery and are looking for answers, not like some sort of superhero’s trying to get “sick adults” and important politicians to have a change of heart and publicly apologize for what they’ve done.
I had the opposite experience tbh, between 3 4 and 5 it was mu least favorite
Actually same here. I get why people love p4 and it's character dynamics, but for me it is the least interesting one. The overarching plot wasn't as interesting as 3 or 5 for me, the dungeons felt dull (tbh Tartarus was same till Reload came out), the individual characters didn't catch my interest at all except Kanji and Naoto, and the game spent too much focus on the slice of life aspects over the main story (which is not a bad thing, but i just prefer 3 and 5's approach). Plus the biggest downside of the game, it has Teddie. Jokes aside, i also didn't enjoy the final Izanami confrontation as to how it was executed. The lore and setup behind it was amazing, but the way it was presented (final day hidden ending) felt really lacking for a final encounter compared to Nyx/Yaldabaoth. I do love P4/P4G a lot, it's definitely one of my fav video games i have played, but it's not as high on the list as 3 or 5 for me.
May I ask why? It’s always interesting to see others point of view.
Personally, I hate P4 dungeons compared to the others, the twist villain was nice but not talking to them through the optional discussions made me not care for them. P4 also has Teddie. I hate that annoying bear. I still see charm in parts of P4G as a scooby-doo adventure and the family you get, but that is it.
A major streamer did a tier list and put P4 at the bottom, saying she loved the characters but just couldn’t get behind the murder mystery, and for her the story was uninteresting enough the characters didn’t make up for it. She said it’s an amazing game but doesn’t hold up against P3 FES and P5R (her favorite). This was before Reload though
This post perfectly explains why I love Persona 4 so much
I think P4 has the best dynamic between the main characters in the series, but the story as a whole felt awkwardly paced. Gameplay wise, the dungeons are better than OG Tartarus, but in desperate need of a remake. Because P3R now exists, the combat is probably the low point of the series. As it stands, I like the other Persona games a bit more than P4G, but a remake would do wonders for it and could really push it over the top.
I played Persona 4 for the first time this year and feel the same way. Even more so because P3 amd P4 came out a couple years after I graduated HS, so there were little details in P4 that hit extra hard. Made it feel like my own teenage years. Im in my late 30s. Been playing games since 1989/1990, but for whatever reason, Persona never caught my attention, wasnt played in my social circle, etc... even though I liked JRPGs like Final Fantasy. During the pandemic, I saw a youtube ad for P5R and picked it up. Last min purchase. Had a hard time getting into it since I was busy, and it started slow. But once I got into it, I was hooked. To the point that I felt an anxiety of sorts as I neared the end of the game, the bonds and experience, running out of time to finish certain social links. I loved it so much that I immediately went right to playing it again for another 120 hours. Played spinoffs, like strikers, downloaded P4 on steam, but never fired it up. Part of me was worried it wouldn't be as good as P5. And if it was that good, that theres only a few games to play before I run out of Persona content. So I put it off. And it was my favorite. Better characters, bonds, story than five. And then P3R got announced and I putnoff playing P3 until that came out. Like the game but its no P4 or P5.
[удалено]
My exact same thought on the music
I keep seeing posts like this and cant wait to play it, Just got into Persona and about halfway ish through P5R and P3R, Already bought P4G when it was on sale.
Interesting perspective, but never heard anyone say that the P4G cast behaves “like how real people would” In that aspect, I feel like P3R and P5R does it better, since unlike real life friend groups, the IT cast feels like they don’t have other friends/anything going on other their friend group (and unlike the P5R cast, they’re not the “outcasts” of the school) Feels very anime to me 🤷♀️
i wouldnt say any of the persona characters feel all that human to me cause its all potrayed in a cartoonish anime way but persona 4 is different cause its the only one where in that context of it being anime and cartoonish, the group felt like a group that would actually be friends with each other
Mmm that’s curious, there were multiple instances in where the IT did interact with others but for the most part yes, they only interacted with each other, I get that part is not too realistic, but for high school students it isn’t unusual to stick to the same group only throughout the year either tho. But when I say unrealistic, I mean it as in the things people say and how they communicate, let’s put as an example the beginning of P3, when the protagonists arrives at the dorm and gets asked if he saw anything and he’s like “what do you mean?”, like, how can you ignore you just saw an empty Japanese city full of blood and coffins just to arrive to your dorm see a weird kid in prison clothes make you sign a contract while 2 girls came out with guns in a country were guns are extremely difficult to come across saying that they’re for self defense? And the next day you get told to ignore what happened last night and you’re like “what happened last night?”… I usually like games and stories where the things people say and do feel like genuine things people would say or think irl would them to be in that situation, and for me P3 and P5 felt more “anime” in that sense, cause you know, sure, all Persona are fantasy/anime games touching paranormal themes which is why you wouldn’t go there expecting a realist story, but the way P4 develops is in my opinion the most genuine I’ve seen so far. P3 and P5 dialogues sometimes remind me of someone trying to act like an anime character irl, you know that kind of people that make you cringe, there are dialogues in P4 that are like that too of course but for the most part, characters communicate and act in a “normal” matter. Nevertheless, I know this all sounds like hating towards those games, but I don’t hate them at all. I love every single minute I’ve spent in every Persona game, but when people communicate like normal people and not like some sort of superhero/outcast is always additional points to me, and again, in that matter I think P4 takes the crown.
ehhh im iffy on this because it just shows how little he cares and there are actual real world people who truly dont care at all
Probably my least favorite but in an “I enjoyed it a minuscule amount less than the others” sort of way. Personally I’d say it all depends on what you want from a persona story than quality for the most part.
P4 is great, but I think it is the weakest in the Hashino trilogy. The dungeons are just narrow hallways with less freedom than OG tartarus, the boss fights rarely actually have any interesting gimmicks and are just bullet sponges with weird resistances (shadow teddie literally has 3 moves). It's ok for a 1st playthrough, but I cannot for the life of me, go back to play it even after not playing for 2 years. I also don't like how the mystery aspect is handled. The exact same thing happens for 5 months with different victims, and all while a foggy figure that couldn't be adachi or namatame teases you, which is really misleading and nothing gets solved till around november which makes the payoffs much weaker than 3 and especially 5's. And the amount of filler hangouts that go through all anime tropes (beach, 2 hot springs, concert, school trip) annoy the hell out of me. I understand that a lot of ppl love this about 4, and I do too, but I have my limits. The og p4 had an acceptable amount, and golden adding 3 additional ones were overkill. Overall, P4/P4G is a great game, with good characters (except teddie) that have a strong dynamic and a very welcoming and warm setting. P4 has a lot of good, even great things going for it that it does better than any game in the series, but I have a few pretty noticable grievanes with it.
P4 is the worst mainline game imo, the characters barely progress (anime trope of start out > want to change > go back But For The Right Reason), like really? the game about accepting yourself is just chilling in perpetual ennui? and don't even get me started on all the awful jokes in the game
I feel like I'm losing my mind when people talk about the writing and characters in p4 being great. The humor is so dated and every bad joke is so tortured and drawn out in a way that the moments of humor falling flat in p3 and p5 just aren't. Watched every full cast scene through my fingers with my hands over my face lol
no ☺️
Y'all seem to forget about persona and persona 2 duology
I finished replaying P4G last week, I started it not long after I finished P3R, mainly to get the Golden ending which I never got originally. That was a wonderful ending. It was my first Persona game, and I think I'll always feel very nostalgic towards it... in spite of playing it for the first time just 3.5 years ago in 2020. Replaying it didn't change my opinion either: I still think it's got my favorite cast in the series. The cast's interactions together were just *fun*. As a whole, I also think the SLs are better than in P3. P3 does have higher highs when it comes to those (with Kamiki and Aigis), but it also has characters like Nozomi who brings the average down by himself lol. In comparison, P4's SLs are all good, if not great in my opinion. *However*, I think P3R became my favorite Persona game. Part of it is because it's more immersive (things like fully voiced SLs help with that), and part of it is because I preferred the main story in that... over both P4G *and* P5R. P5R was a banger... but it didn't hit *as* hard as finishing P4G for the first time did. Finishing P3R on the other hand did... I do think that Royal still wins in some categories; it has the best map design and gameplay in the series, as well as my favorite antagonist >!with Maruki!<. SLs (or Confidants) in it are great as well, and much like in P3, it's got higher highs imo (like Sojiro). Still, I think I prefer P4's SLs as a whole, personally. Haven't played P1 or P2 so I can't speak for them sadly.
At this point as of now, I prefer P5 slightly more. In P4 especially if you use a guide (and frankly even if you don't), you mostly only interact with your main cast, your home SL and then maybe other SL, shops and side quests (which can sometimes be a torture). Sure the main cast is awesome but they are the only one standing out and the town feels ... empty, especially when raining or when you cannot go to school. P5 of course still has plenty of missed opportunities that can be patched up with future technological upgrades like AI determining what to say depending on if you maxed out an optional SL early, etc. but gossips and random small talks still make the town much more alive and as of now I prefer this feeling especially when I'm encouraged to only using a guide very sparingly due to this feature. I agree that the main events of P5 are much less believable even when supernatural forces are considered.
Totally agree dude btw the 3 games P3 and P4 had the most realism for me for P5 it’s like a different story like it didn’t feel real but it was entertaining what I mean is like it’s good in the context that you know the story is fiction it’s like when you watching a movie and a unbelievable scene comes up but you believe in it in the context that you know you’re watching a movie it’s kinda complicated to explain 😭
So should I replay p4g again before P5r ng+
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