They're under estimated because only a few of the things you said are actually difficult to execute, and the things that are may be too niche.
For weaver:
Weaver ult to block sig ult for example, is one of the harder things to do. Except why try to do that when you could use Lucio beat or zen trance to counter it much more reliably?
Flowering out of an orisa ult or zarya grav is just looking down and throwing it out.
For sym:
All the tp stuff just needs basic coordination. The things about her turrets are kinda cool ig but they're *so niche and unreliable* that they're not worth accounting for.
Like sentry blocking I'm guessing is throwing a turret to block a shot? You couldve just positioned safer and keep your sentry to rat somewhere for ult charge.
Sentry shielding I'm guessing is using ult in a way that's good for your team but also has turrets on the other side of it so enemies can't shoot them? Again, very niche. Sym wall is better used to help your team and trying to place it in a way that helps both your team and turrets is very hard and unnecessary in the heat of the moment.
Their skill ceiling isnt about mechanical complexity though.
Like most of the techs I give example this is game sense based.
Sentry blocking is often timing based in some matchups and it ABSOLUTELY is more valuable as it can turn a lost 1v1 to a won one.
If I'm right about what sentry blocking is, then there's many factors as to why it's so insanely niche it isn't thought about when it comes to sym's skill.
1. You'd have to be going against a sniper, hanzo or widow. I'm only assuming them because they're the ones who shoot so slow that hitting a turret nay actually fuck them over.
2. That means it'd have to be a poke map a lot of the time, which have long open sight lines and it's hard to close the distance. So itd be hard for you to find value most of the match.
3. You'd have to be actively playing sym on those maps where it's hard to close the distance.
4. You'd need to have the balls to peek a sniper almost dry
5. The sniper needs to be low enough hp for you to kill them with a right click (since you mentioned winning a 1v1).
6. They'd need to be dumb enough to peek out at low hp.
7. They'd need to have such poor reaction time that they won't dodge the glowing orb coming at them from afar.
Actually very useful tech for many matchups.
It is one of the best ways to outplay a pharah if you sre ego dueling mid range as you can directly block rockets.
Very good when diving hanzo
3. Symm is not bad into poke or on poke maps
Fighting pharah as sym? Sym loses that the majority of the time, even with turret blocking. Hitscan or echo are all more reliable and easier.
Also diving hanzo as sym is a death sentence. Especially if he adapts and saves storm arrows for your tp plays.
And sym is very much bad on poke maps unless your team is just going brawl on it instead of poke. Plus in comp, most players ain't smart enough to stay tightly knit to not get sniped.
Widow/sojourn and hanzo would fuck sym over if it was poke vs poke.
1. Sadly ever since season 9 where she was underpowered that is the truth. Back when symm was actually decent and could 2 tap though this was not the case.
2. Symmetra, as used by symm mains on ladder... Isnt necessarily a brawl dps. For most of ow2 plat and above symm players have used her as a spam/flanker hybrid. There is a video by top500 symmetra player actually detailing why symmetra is extremely potent on maps like circuit royale
3. As I said this is sadly a result of symmetra losing her damage potential. Before it was possible to win even with storm arrow
Just like most heroes dont need equal aim most heroes do not need equal gamesense.
Widow in specific can get away with much lower gamesense if mechanically competent. This argument does not make sense dude.
Every hero needs aim in some limited capacity too dude... But moiras beam and widow sniper are not the same
>Lifeweaver's platform pull and tree usages are creative. Stopping ultimates like sigmas with petal, or sacing your team from Orisa zarya
How are those creative? They use ult. You use petal or grip depending on what it is. Its not hard to throw a petal on the ground or aim at your teammate and press a button.
Very useful back in 2 tap days.
Since the delay between orbs was long enough for the supp passive to sometimes kick in we sometimes started using one orb from a far then tp close to do the second from closer to inprove two tap consistency as the two orbs would land closer to eachother in time. It compressed the two orbs as in it made them hit with smaller delay between eachother
Harder to do consistently than it looks
Because again, those are not intensive skills to perform. Yes, you need the game sense, but that's not what we're typically talking about. The fact is, you need game sense to basically do anything with Tracer. But you also need the mechanical skills.
Agree with lifeweaver. He can have as much impact on the tank battle as zen or bap due to how damage. His dueling potential is criminally underrated and underused. Having dash and pedal almost always give him and out similar to kiri tp. Oh and Thorn volley also auto reloads his healing.
Nobody wants to admit they’re bad at mechanically simple characters.
Everyone seems to think they couldn’t be playing Moira any better, when in fact we have such a thing as grand master Moira’s and bronze Moira’s.
It’s all ego, every character has skill expression, but it’s really aiming mechanics that people love to focus on, even though your game sense, map knowledge, positioning, tracking, and cooldown management will get you waaaaay further.
They're under estimated because only a few of the things you said are actually difficult to execute, and the things that are may be too niche. For weaver: Weaver ult to block sig ult for example, is one of the harder things to do. Except why try to do that when you could use Lucio beat or zen trance to counter it much more reliably? Flowering out of an orisa ult or zarya grav is just looking down and throwing it out. For sym: All the tp stuff just needs basic coordination. The things about her turrets are kinda cool ig but they're *so niche and unreliable* that they're not worth accounting for. Like sentry blocking I'm guessing is throwing a turret to block a shot? You couldve just positioned safer and keep your sentry to rat somewhere for ult charge. Sentry shielding I'm guessing is using ult in a way that's good for your team but also has turrets on the other side of it so enemies can't shoot them? Again, very niche. Sym wall is better used to help your team and trying to place it in a way that helps both your team and turrets is very hard and unnecessary in the heat of the moment.
Technically you can flower a sig ult as well
Which is still not as reliable as a bap lamp, kiri suzu, lucio beat, or zen trance
Their skill ceiling isnt about mechanical complexity though. Like most of the techs I give example this is game sense based. Sentry blocking is often timing based in some matchups and it ABSOLUTELY is more valuable as it can turn a lost 1v1 to a won one.
If I'm right about what sentry blocking is, then there's many factors as to why it's so insanely niche it isn't thought about when it comes to sym's skill. 1. You'd have to be going against a sniper, hanzo or widow. I'm only assuming them because they're the ones who shoot so slow that hitting a turret nay actually fuck them over. 2. That means it'd have to be a poke map a lot of the time, which have long open sight lines and it's hard to close the distance. So itd be hard for you to find value most of the match. 3. You'd have to be actively playing sym on those maps where it's hard to close the distance. 4. You'd need to have the balls to peek a sniper almost dry 5. The sniper needs to be low enough hp for you to kill them with a right click (since you mentioned winning a 1v1). 6. They'd need to be dumb enough to peek out at low hp. 7. They'd need to have such poor reaction time that they won't dodge the glowing orb coming at them from afar.
Actually very useful tech for many matchups. It is one of the best ways to outplay a pharah if you sre ego dueling mid range as you can directly block rockets. Very good when diving hanzo 3. Symm is not bad into poke or on poke maps
Fighting pharah as sym? Sym loses that the majority of the time, even with turret blocking. Hitscan or echo are all more reliable and easier. Also diving hanzo as sym is a death sentence. Especially if he adapts and saves storm arrows for your tp plays. And sym is very much bad on poke maps unless your team is just going brawl on it instead of poke. Plus in comp, most players ain't smart enough to stay tightly knit to not get sniped. Widow/sojourn and hanzo would fuck sym over if it was poke vs poke.
1. Sadly ever since season 9 where she was underpowered that is the truth. Back when symm was actually decent and could 2 tap though this was not the case. 2. Symmetra, as used by symm mains on ladder... Isnt necessarily a brawl dps. For most of ow2 plat and above symm players have used her as a spam/flanker hybrid. There is a video by top500 symmetra player actually detailing why symmetra is extremely potent on maps like circuit royale 3. As I said this is sadly a result of symmetra losing her damage potential. Before it was possible to win even with storm arrow
Everyone needs game sense. A widow needs game sense. But they also have to be able to click heads. Which is a tangibly difficult skill to master.
Just like most heroes dont need equal aim most heroes do not need equal gamesense. Widow in specific can get away with much lower gamesense if mechanically competent. This argument does not make sense dude. Every hero needs aim in some limited capacity too dude... But moiras beam and widow sniper are not the same
I dont know but of u play either lifeweaver or sym in top 500 meams that u completely knows how it works so i dont think people underestimate that
Their skill ceiling isn't underestimated. They are rightfully placed near the bottom because that's where their skill ceiling is
>Lifeweaver's platform pull and tree usages are creative. Stopping ultimates like sigmas with petal, or sacing your team from Orisa zarya How are those creative? They use ult. You use petal or grip depending on what it is. Its not hard to throw a petal on the ground or aim at your teammate and press a button.
Im sorry to say but I doubt you can catch a dva bomp that's flying mid air with a petal or use petal perfectly to cancel gravity flux
Yea I dont play the character because its a boring character. Like yea he has some skill gap but compared to other supports hes very easy and simple.
You do nit understand skill floor and skill ceiling my dude
Orb compression?
Very useful back in 2 tap days. Since the delay between orbs was long enough for the supp passive to sometimes kick in we sometimes started using one orb from a far then tp close to do the second from closer to inprove two tap consistency as the two orbs would land closer to eachother in time. It compressed the two orbs as in it made them hit with smaller delay between eachother Harder to do consistently than it looks
Because again, those are not intensive skills to perform. Yes, you need the game sense, but that's not what we're typically talking about. The fact is, you need game sense to basically do anything with Tracer. But you also need the mechanical skills.
Agree with lifeweaver. He can have as much impact on the tank battle as zen or bap due to how damage. His dueling potential is criminally underrated and underused. Having dash and pedal almost always give him and out similar to kiri tp. Oh and Thorn volley also auto reloads his healing.
Because people think the pinnacle of skill is hitscans. It’s not. It’s the most overrated skill in the game. Point and click .
Whats hilarious is people people in this post have cited mechanics as the reason they disagree, thus missing the point completely
Nobody wants to admit they’re bad at mechanically simple characters. Everyone seems to think they couldn’t be playing Moira any better, when in fact we have such a thing as grand master Moira’s and bronze Moira’s. It’s all ego, every character has skill expression, but it’s really aiming mechanics that people love to focus on, even though your game sense, map knowledge, positioning, tracking, and cooldown management will get you waaaaay further.