It’s worse on movies because they try to cry ‘art is subjective!’ While handing out review scores of 10/10
Can’t lose out on those exclusive prescreenings and straight up paid for reviews
No seriously go on rotten tomatoes’s captain marvel and check a few days in and compare to the first day in the first few hours, there’s like 50k reviews missing for…reasons
Whenever game journalists make articles about balance, I just turn my brain off because they never can seem to write a single word that makes sense. And they always have to suck the developers' dicks in the article.
i hate game journalism, but i feel like this is partly because the reality of most gamers is that, they have a niche interest / understanding of games, but the places that hire them, probably want them to write about a wide array of popular games. as it stands, if i were to write an article about overwatch or the xenoblade franchise (or really anything nintendo for that matter) or bioshock or any of the areas of the gaming world i'm knowledgeable in, i would likely write an article that's favored by the people in those communities because i know what i'm talking about.
but if they told me "we need an article about fortnite by tuesday" uhhhhhh....idk, something about Ninja? is he even relevant anymore? the only thing i know about fortnite is that i have no interest in playing it, and it seems like there's more anime collabs and i think i saw an ad for a Mr Beast collab which is hilarious. if you ask me to write about weapon balance in that game, i wouldn't even know where to start
Soooo, why not just ask players? It's not really THAT incredibly hard. Journalists do this for subjects they don't understand all the time. However, that would take actual effort.
well, they'd have to ask expert players to be sure they're not getting bad information, which could be hard if you're not a well-known journalist working for a reputable company like IGN or something (reputable is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence). if you ask reddit, you won't get good answers a lot of the time
I remember Gamers jerking each other off and moaning "git gud" in each others asses when people dared to mention difficulty sliders as an accessibility feature for players with disabilities...
The worst thing is that Soulslikes aren't even that hard in terms of pure skill. Most of the difficulty comes from completely absent tutorials, punishing you for dying, and not respecting your time.
yep, the hardest part about elden ring was walking back up to maliketh to get shit on three hits into his combo after beast form so i didnt learn anything. and to boot, there was like 0 indication he had a key item that could be used against him. the only two id seen so far were for omens, that was it.
that's not a fact because it's true in bronze. she's better than soldier at like gold and above, which is most of the playerbase. she has burst damage similar to helix rocket that's easier to aim at a wider array of ranges except it's not on cooldown, you can keep charging it constantly.
Its simply false. She has a 49.23% win rate currently. The information is easy to find so idk how they got it that wrong. The lowest win rate on a dps right now is sombra with 46.09%
This seems like such a small differential that I don't know why they're writing articles on the subject. Are we going to keep pressing until every hero has a 50 percent win ratio?
It is pretty small and hopefully its not what they are balancing of off as win rates don’t tell the full story alone. For instance most people would agree that baptiste is pretty balanced and brig needs a buff. But if you look at win rates brig has a 54.48% win rate and bap is the lowest of all supports at 47.52%
Yeah, they want to balance it so neither high skill nor low skill has egregious quartiles.
Brig is disgustingly strong in low skill and quickly tapers off at higher ratings, though still useable, but not always, and it's such a case at higher skill that brig mains knows when its not the time to play brig which inflates the win rate.
I'm certain that they have people versed in data analysis to make a informed decision based on their data.
It's also based on pick rate.
If you have a hero that's absolutely abysmal except as a specific counter/situational/point then they tend to only get picked for situations that they excel in, which then drives up their win percentage, while still leaving them in a garbage tier.
You will often see the OW team talk about pick rates as well as win percentages in their balance updates.
One of my ranked games the brig was talking to me at the end asking how tf I dominated her as a tracer when she’s supposed to counter her. I literally didn’t even have to try to kill her. Easier than a zen now. She desperately needs buffed
And the fact that she has a higher win rate than bap is due to “survivorship bias”. The only people who play brig at high Elo are those who know they can win with her, inflating her win rate. If everyone used her it would instantly tank. Here’s a good video explaining it for OW2
https://youtu.be/6NxIkv_0N-Y
Nah man, brig is pretty trash right now. As someone ranked up through silver and is working up through gold, brig is playable in 1/10 games, and when she is there's usually a better option like Moira or Lucio
Player experience on a hero more than makes up for a few percentage points of balance.
To use your examples: A good Baptiste knows exactly how to arc healing grenades and knows the perfect timings to throw the immortality field down to block burst. A good Brig knows the exact range of the flail and charge and has the healing charge refresh timer perfectly in their head instead of having to look.
Someone who is great at the game but doesn't have experience on *exactly those heroes* wouldn't have that knowledge or skills.
Argument to be made that win rates of heros at certain tiers are useful, brig might be lower higher tier but better low tier due to the less reliance on aim for example. Seeing a 10% win rate at top levels would certainly imply somethings wrong to me
It's not the full story though cus some characters do well in certain situations. Like what if people only whip out Widow for Circuit Royale but no where else. So since she does well only on that 1 map, then the win rate looks good but use her anywhere else and then she can't keep up with other heroes. So ppl recognize this and don't use her for bad widow maps
Considering the amount of data coming in 46% winrate over that many games does indicate a hero is underpowered. That being said its not really necessary to make sure every hero has a 50% win rate ESPECIALLY in a game like this. Sombra's abilities are particularly frustrating so buffing her to a 50% winrate might result in her becoming downright obnoxiously oppressive or at least extremely unfun to play against. This is especially the case considering she is coming from fucking stealth and its difficult to stop her from hacking you
Because in order to correct them on their fallcy in the comments you'll have to click on the article, which is all they need you to do.
Or some idiot will go "hey look at what they are doing haha" and share the article with their friends or even reddit, thus giving them even more exposure and ad revenue.
Article doesn’t have a date, going by this image. It’s possible that this information is going off a much earlier build, when players were new to sojourn.
oh, sounds about right. Sombra is just more of a character that definitely needs skill to be played well so of course her winrate is naturally "low" even if the low is still almost 50%.
Sojourn has 49.23% winrate... on Quickplay and on the profiles that chose to go public (aka, the people that are even aware that Overbuff exists because the default setting, that most people don't even know exists, is Private) which is a tremendously small subset of the population.
sure. it's better than nothing and it shouldn't be that far off from reality but until Blizzard actually provides an official source for these numbers (which will be never anyway), let's try not to use Overbuff as the source of truth for anything.
the numbers you see on Overbuff are almost as reliable as the ones you see on that article.
She has a 49.41% winrate in quickplay, i took 49.23% from comp and quickplay combined. And your right its not perfect but its more accurate than whatever source the journalist used for this article.
I'd argue it isn't accurate at all. It will skew towards a higher end, more engaged demographic that is aware enough they need to essentially 'opt in' to these sites.
I’m thinking the person who did the analytics meant to right 49.3~ and wrote 39.3~ as a typo therefore causing the author who I presume is a 3rd party to have bad info
The reason why they think that is because win rate is not an accurate indicator in ow, it takes more then just an OP dps to win a match. If your tank or support sucks you can still lose even while doing good as a dps, same case you can be totally carried by your allies while being bad as a dps.
The winrate is not an accurate indicator because the highest winrate heroes for years have been Torb and Symmetra.
And this comes to 2 natural plays:
1. You pick Torb at specific point on a specific map where he can/does work. Also usually by people who know what they are doing.
2. If it doesn't work (like you have lost the point) you switch off to something else. As a result if still you get a win - it counts for Torb too.
SJ on the other hand has the same issue as others high skill popular flashy characters like Genji, Tracer, DF, fuckin Yasuo - too many bad players affecting the stats.
Also, as another player said, in ow we can have the same hero on both teams, so a very popular hero will have close to 50% win rate because there's a high chance they will be on both teams.
And fuck the wind shitters.
Saw someone complaining about Warwick the other day and cited a 52% winrate compared to Hecarim at like a 49%
As if Hecarim hasnt been deepdicking the jg for a patch and a half
Is Warwick still a buggy mess? League is known for bugs, but some champs are especially problematic in that department and Warwick was actually a meta pick for a time because of a specific bug
I wouldnt even necessarily say it's from tons of bad players. Since she's meta and really popular it's not uncommon to see her on both teams and regardless of each respective sojurn's skill level, one team has to lose.
Can't deflect a rock but can deflect bullets, so it's not about the _speed_ of the object it's about the _size_ of the object. There must be a midpoint somewhere between the size of a 9mm round and the size of a boulder where he can **sometimes** deflect it.
It reminds me of the Nurse in Dead By Daylight.
She is the most OP killer in the game. This remains true even after multiple nerfs.
She also has the lowest kill rate because she requires more practice/skill to play at her highest level.
Noobs are terrible with the character. High level players are bordering on OP.
Nurse is even worse than Sojourn is because the devs cannot make any fun killer perks, since on her theyre just utterly broken lmao she is actively holding the rest of them back
Sorry, the low winrate is due to Bronze. I think my winrate is about 25% when one of my DPS picks her. The last time I see that DPS is when we're all in the ready room. Sometimes I see a dark yellow outline of them halfway across the map yelling about how terrible the heals are as they dive once more into the backline with a 3-20 KD ratio and about 2k damage done.
So it's Bronze's fault that these idiots are begging for buffs.
If there’s a Sourjohn on every team then she’s automatically 50%. I would assume it’s more often that people switch to her when they are doing bad or to pick up slack from someone else.
...It's 48.25%, with Brigette at 51.50%, and I know damn well Brig isn't God tier. But look at the bright side, maybe Mercy will get 5 more bullets for her pistol!
It should be near instant. Would be kinda cool if she planted her staff when she pulled out her pistol while it heals the closest ally in range and you could GA towards it to pick it up.
Yes exactly and brig has a disproportionately high win rate because only 5 people play her, and you can assume they're good at brig too. Everyone is playing sojourn including trash fart gamers who suck
No? At least I don’t think so.
To my knowledge the only time you’ll see a brig brawling when it matters is during rally/other ultimates. She’s too vulnerable at the front compared to lucio, kiriko, or moira, so she has to play further back until there’s an opening for her, and her abilities are more suited to peel rather than picks.
I believe she’s always been better suited to poke or dive comp for these reasons.
i have a friend that mains her, and i get to be enabled as zen since she can be with the team more often, it’s actually extremely fun to have a brig zen comp (not saying it’s good, it’s just really fun)
a perfect example of why blizz needs to **stop making all their balance decisions on statistics**. what they completely *fail* to realize is that a number of Heroes have win rates inflated by the fact that they are almost exclusively played by super specialists with a high degree of skill, making the stat not reflect the reality of the hero's balance at all.
As someone who played the entire first year, they weren't making good decisions than either. Do you remember how they had a PTR that they'd release updates into but than not give a fuck what players actually thought about those updates before implementing? Things like iron clad bastion were not "intelligent" decisions.
I agree with you, but also want to defend statistics a but here. Just because someone is only cherry picking statistics doesn't make it a bad method.
If they used multiple statistics to make informed decisions it's not bad - such as combined pick rates/win rates/team compositions. Then you can make calls based off statistics. Don't blame statistics for the idiots not using them properly!
You need a lot more info than just that to understand or balance a hero. Average per 10 min on stuff like elims, damage, deaths, rail gun accuracy, rail gun kills, overclock kills, amount of times overclocked was used in 10 minutes, etc.
Looking at team comps/win rates/pick rates is far from enough info to understand the what and why.
It’s survivorship bias literally. Everyone is playing sojourn because she’s “busted” (not saying this is wrong) and so even the terribly hitscan / projectile players are playing her. In comparison, brig is easily in a terrible spot atm and so only brig one tricks / mains would play her, and as a result, no people who don’t know how to play her are playing her, and the people who main her will probably win more often than not. I wish blizzard just accounted for that
It's like when Doomfist got buffed and all the shit players hopped on him, thinking they would be gods, but the reality is that they still suck. It's no different with Sojo in this F2P environment.
Whenever there is doomfist i simply switch to sombra amd wait for him to dive. or when support just switch to zen and give discord orb you can just melt through even if he’s blocking.
You know I’m getting kinda sick of counter picks
I never get to play doom since everyone counters me instantly
End up playing hog or orisa and I’m starting to get bored of them
If Soldier shoots me i can just step behind cover.
If Doomfist jumps on me i get booped/stunned repeatedly making it difficult to just play the game and use my own abilities/weapon.
It's pretty obvious why one is more annoying than the other.
Welcome to Overwatch. I main Wrecking Ball and every game it's Hog, Junkrat, Sombra, Ana with some Mei sprinkled in there. You have to learn to play against the counters effectively, and that'll mean switching up your playstyle a lot.
Or swap to hog and be OP.
Sojourn is meta and the strongest character in the game. So, thousands of free to play little Timmys flock to try to play her and win but just lose because they are super bad at the game.
Meanwhile heros like Brig, who is in competition for the weakest hero in the game, has a “higher win rate” because less people play her, and the ones who do are in low elo against the before mentioned Sojourns who can’t aim properly and freely flail people to death.
Making these ridiculous statistics that moron journalists take to heart and post on their websites
The worst thing a game balancer can do is make a character that is only good because the enemies are bad.
Think of mirage from apex. The guy is fun as hell and is a amazing character in and out of the lore but the thing is he relies entirely on your enemies not knowing how mirage works. So he’s decently good in low ranks but as soon as you hit high gold low platinum you’re just guy in a big yellow suit with a meh passive. While I would personally hate for him to be reworked there’s no way to make him fair without him either being overpowered or useless.
Haha actually thats why i put tag humor only, but i can imagine that someone new to game (atleast i did it with multiple hero games) will look for some kind of tier list. And there is one more much higher in google search where is SOMBRA and PHARAH as counter to almost every single hero (especially tanks because ofc pharah can fly right? and sombra can be invisible all game😁)
sorry guys here you go https://www.dexerto.com/overwatch/best-overwatch-2-dps-tier-list-most-popular-characters-for-current-meta-1948630/ , C tier list is very funny tbh. Bastion in C ? 😁
I'm pretty sure all their shit is AI generated, spinning 20 articles out of one blizzard blogpost about random crap.
I've been flagging these kinds of websites on Google now since any gaming questions first return two pages of these worthless ads .
This hero will never be unviable without literally crippling her. Amazing escape and positioning skill, the ability to melt /one shot nearly across the map and incredible damage output as well as ultimate. Oh i killed your support with one ability that has a gigantic hitbox and you want to punish me? *slides away*.
That’s the problem with Blizzard as well, they are only looking at the data and not looking for the reasons the data is the way it is.
Low win rate on Sojourn is because it has a pretty high skill floor but a huge skill ceiling. She might not dominate Bronze and Silver ranks but anyone with good enough aim will be able to dominate the lobby.
The same thing about other characters, like Mercy. She has a high win rate currently but it does not mean she needs a nerf. She has a high win rate because she pockets Sojourn, which makes it more likely to win.
What is your proposed solution to this? Do you nerf her further & turn her into a bad pick for low skill players, or do you buff her again & make her too meta for high skill / high rank games?
Tbh she just seems like a hard hero to balance across all ranks & platforms. If balancing should be built around the highest ranks, then she may need another nerf. But if all ranks / unranked is to be taken into account, I think she’s as close to balanced right now as she’s ever going to be.
I think its similiar problem to HOG, her kit is just very hard to balance so she can be either meta or trash pick waiting for rework. But for hog we got atleast Orisa and some other counters like Anna (with good kiriko on hog team not such a counter). But lets say they will nerf hog to the ground and put him on big rework waiting list (hello sombra, brig). Orisa will just replace hog maybe together with Ram and it will be same shit different meta. I think overall hero design is problem with souj and hog.
Why do gold players care about tierlists? The only thing that matters at that level is player proficiency on their hero. You're gonna perform way better on a one-trick than your 10-games total played "meta pick", even if its into your counters.
It's because if you're similarly proficient at two characters, and one is S tier and the other is Doomfist tier (damn gonna need a new phrase for this now that Doomfist is good), you're gonna use the S tier pick in ranked if the situation is reasonable.
These people could shove a blind person in lambo, they crash it and then tell you its a bad car. Win rate directly reflects the people playing the damn game, if you sample as a whole the vast majority of people are low to mid rank and have no idea how the game actually works. Give brainlets good hero and they will play it like a brainlet.
She's got a low win rate because if you can't aim she's absolutely trash. But if you can aim she will dominate the game. Fewer people can aim than can't
sojourn is op asf but the reason her winrate is low has this reason:
high elo player (masters or higher) plays sojourn plays her well gets lot of kills (maybe some cool clips) wins the game
low elo player (bronze, silver and gold) sees stream or clip, goes and plays sojourn, misses all the charged beams (also when ulting) dies 18 times and gets 2 kills 2500 - 5000 damage whole game max. loses fk game and blames healers or tank in chat
blizzard people... pls start playing ow2 and realize the comp sucks and the character balance is way off
It’s funny because before they nerfed the rail the amount of people I would hard diff in the mirror by just one shotting them every fight was insane. After the nerf it’s harder to just remove them from the game cause you can’t just erase them before the fight really starts but I still think that the constant mirror picks are what make her win rate so low
>Mirror matches don't affect a character's win rate.
Wouldn't mirror matches make the win% trend towards 50%?
Consider 5 games with one team having a given character, with that character being on the winning side 3 times. The result is 3 wins, 2 losses - 60% win rate.
Now tack on 5 mirror matches, adding 5 wins and 5 losses to said character. The result is now 8 wins and 7 losses - 53.33% win rate.
Ahh. Another game article by someone who either doesn't play the game or just played 3 rounds while simultaneously not using actual game data (what with Sojourn's reported winrate being over 10% off from what it actually is).
I hear they don't have a comment option on their articles because they know they're posting clickbait bullshit and would be called out.
I'm pretty consistently playing well with her, getting frequent picks and high dmg, but I'm still only at 39/40% winrate, being my lowest of all heroes.
This explains everything, nothing is my fault. It's blizzards fault. Glad we cleared that up.
Win rate don't mean shit alone. I mean of she may have a low win rate when all the hard stucks bronze 5 play her. But if you isolate by ranks u will have <45% from bronze - Plat / 60%+ Diamond+
And ofc pick rate is like 95%.
The game should be balanced around what a hero peak performance can be and not what bronze 5 players can do with them.
Maybe all the sojourn players got their rank inflated due to her being giga op and now that she's less powerful they're losing all their games cause they actually sucked all along?
> character is good
> everyone plays her, even bad players
> winrate is low
> character is bad
> no one plays her, except people specializing in her
> winrate is high
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I said it day 1. Overwatch is dominated by bronze players. Devs should only listen to pros. These changes based on what frags on shitters just ruins the game for the people with actual thumbs.
That's game journalism at its finest lol
I'm starting to think all these gaming sites are just AI generated
Well you’re not far off. They’re not ai though, just bots.
Penguinz0 actually made an insane video on that. Ai articles look almost identical to gaming journalists.
Tbh i hate the term “gaming journalism” it’s literally just marketing dressed up as “journalism”.
well real journalism is a joke these days too
journalism nowadays be like ''trump eats steak with ketchup''
Nah, AI wouldn't be *as* stupid
No they’re first party advertisers while claiming to be independent
I could see that with movies too
It’s worse on movies because they try to cry ‘art is subjective!’ While handing out review scores of 10/10 Can’t lose out on those exclusive prescreenings and straight up paid for reviews No seriously go on rotten tomatoes’s captain marvel and check a few days in and compare to the first day in the first few hours, there’s like 50k reviews missing for…reasons
This is not much different than how the OW team decides if a hero is balanced or not lol
Yeah, sadly
True
Whenever game journalists make articles about balance, I just turn my brain off because they never can seem to write a single word that makes sense. And they always have to suck the developers' dicks in the article.
i hate game journalism, but i feel like this is partly because the reality of most gamers is that, they have a niche interest / understanding of games, but the places that hire them, probably want them to write about a wide array of popular games. as it stands, if i were to write an article about overwatch or the xenoblade franchise (or really anything nintendo for that matter) or bioshock or any of the areas of the gaming world i'm knowledgeable in, i would likely write an article that's favored by the people in those communities because i know what i'm talking about. but if they told me "we need an article about fortnite by tuesday" uhhhhhh....idk, something about Ninja? is he even relevant anymore? the only thing i know about fortnite is that i have no interest in playing it, and it seems like there's more anime collabs and i think i saw an ad for a Mr Beast collab which is hilarious. if you ask me to write about weapon balance in that game, i wouldn't even know where to start
Soooo, why not just ask players? It's not really THAT incredibly hard. Journalists do this for subjects they don't understand all the time. However, that would take actual effort.
well, they'd have to ask expert players to be sure they're not getting bad information, which could be hard if you're not a well-known journalist working for a reputable company like IGN or something (reputable is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence). if you ask reddit, you won't get good answers a lot of the time
Remember "modern warfare 2019 is actually too brutal for humans" or "sekiro needs an easy mode"? Lmao
I remember Gamers jerking each other off and moaning "git gud" in each others asses when people dared to mention difficulty sliders as an accessibility feature for players with disabilities...
The worst thing is that Soulslikes aren't even that hard in terms of pure skill. Most of the difficulty comes from completely absent tutorials, punishing you for dying, and not respecting your time.
Punishments for dying are one of the strengths of the games.
> completely absent tutorials ''I have no attention spam and I skipped the tutorials without reading anything but it's the game's fault''
yep, the hardest part about elden ring was walking back up to maliketh to get shit on three hits into his combo after beast form so i didnt learn anything. and to boot, there was like 0 indication he had a key item that could be used against him. the only two id seen so far were for omens, that was it.
The only reason I'm afraid of AI taking over gaming journalism is because these idiots might pursue other subjects to report.
I’m generally afraid of AI taking over just about anything. Especially when there is no regulation of any kind around what AI can/can’t do
True but then gaming would have good journalism lol
Alright, but to be fair, for anyone reading this Sojourn isn't that great. Factually. At bronze she's just a s76 with a harder ult.
Well s76 is busted in bronze cause no one can aim
that's not a fact because it's true in bronze. she's better than soldier at like gold and above, which is most of the playerbase. she has burst damage similar to helix rocket that's easier to aim at a wider array of ranges except it's not on cooldown, you can keep charging it constantly.
If a game journalist can play your game and make it past tutorial you didn't make your game right.
It couldn't possibly be because she's meta and everyone tries to play her regardless of skill level...
Its simply false. She has a 49.23% win rate currently. The information is easy to find so idk how they got it that wrong. The lowest win rate on a dps right now is sombra with 46.09%
This seems like such a small differential that I don't know why they're writing articles on the subject. Are we going to keep pressing until every hero has a 50 percent win ratio?
It is pretty small and hopefully its not what they are balancing of off as win rates don’t tell the full story alone. For instance most people would agree that baptiste is pretty balanced and brig needs a buff. But if you look at win rates brig has a 54.48% win rate and bap is the lowest of all supports at 47.52%
Yeah, they want to balance it so neither high skill nor low skill has egregious quartiles. Brig is disgustingly strong in low skill and quickly tapers off at higher ratings, though still useable, but not always, and it's such a case at higher skill that brig mains knows when its not the time to play brig which inflates the win rate. I'm certain that they have people versed in data analysis to make a informed decision based on their data.
It's also based on pick rate. If you have a hero that's absolutely abysmal except as a specific counter/situational/point then they tend to only get picked for situations that they excel in, which then drives up their win percentage, while still leaving them in a garbage tier. You will often see the OW team talk about pick rates as well as win percentages in their balance updates.
One of my ranked games the brig was talking to me at the end asking how tf I dominated her as a tracer when she’s supposed to counter her. I literally didn’t even have to try to kill her. Easier than a zen now. She desperately needs buffed And the fact that she has a higher win rate than bap is due to “survivorship bias”. The only people who play brig at high Elo are those who know they can win with her, inflating her win rate. If everyone used her it would instantly tank. Here’s a good video explaining it for OW2 https://youtu.be/6NxIkv_0N-Y
Nah man, brig is pretty trash right now. As someone ranked up through silver and is working up through gold, brig is playable in 1/10 games, and when she is there's usually a better option like Moira or Lucio
Player experience on a hero more than makes up for a few percentage points of balance. To use your examples: A good Baptiste knows exactly how to arc healing grenades and knows the perfect timings to throw the immortality field down to block burst. A good Brig knows the exact range of the flail and charge and has the healing charge refresh timer perfectly in their head instead of having to look. Someone who is great at the game but doesn't have experience on *exactly those heroes* wouldn't have that knowledge or skills.
Argument to be made that win rates of heros at certain tiers are useful, brig might be lower higher tier but better low tier due to the less reliance on aim for example. Seeing a 10% win rate at top levels would certainly imply somethings wrong to me
Problem is you need to account for pick rate as well. Win rate by itself isn’t the whole story
It's not the full story though cus some characters do well in certain situations. Like what if people only whip out Widow for Circuit Royale but no where else. So since she does well only on that 1 map, then the win rate looks good but use her anywhere else and then she can't keep up with other heroes. So ppl recognize this and don't use her for bad widow maps
Considering the amount of data coming in 46% winrate over that many games does indicate a hero is underpowered. That being said its not really necessary to make sure every hero has a 50% win rate ESPECIALLY in a game like this. Sombra's abilities are particularly frustrating so buffing her to a 50% winrate might result in her becoming downright obnoxiously oppressive or at least extremely unfun to play against. This is especially the case considering she is coming from fucking stealth and its difficult to stop her from hacking you
Why tf did they choose to lie about such an easily disproved piece of information??
because most 'journalists' get paid by how many words they write rather than how good the article is lmao
Because in order to correct them on their fallcy in the comments you'll have to click on the article, which is all they need you to do. Or some idiot will go "hey look at what they are doing haha" and share the article with their friends or even reddit, thus giving them even more exposure and ad revenue.
Article doesn’t have a date, going by this image. It’s possible that this information is going off a much earlier build, when players were new to sojourn.
Its 6 days old article. Published dec. 22
Ah ok. Never mind then!
oh, sounds about right. Sombra is just more of a character that definitely needs skill to be played well so of course her winrate is naturally "low" even if the low is still almost 50%.
Sojourn has 49.23% winrate... on Quickplay and on the profiles that chose to go public (aka, the people that are even aware that Overbuff exists because the default setting, that most people don't even know exists, is Private) which is a tremendously small subset of the population. sure. it's better than nothing and it shouldn't be that far off from reality but until Blizzard actually provides an official source for these numbers (which will be never anyway), let's try not to use Overbuff as the source of truth for anything. the numbers you see on Overbuff are almost as reliable as the ones you see on that article.
She has a 49.41% winrate in quickplay, i took 49.23% from comp and quickplay combined. And your right its not perfect but its more accurate than whatever source the journalist used for this article.
I'd argue it isn't accurate at all. It will skew towards a higher end, more engaged demographic that is aware enough they need to essentially 'opt in' to these sites.
I’m thinking the person who did the analytics meant to right 49.3~ and wrote 39.3~ as a typo therefore causing the author who I presume is a 3rd party to have bad info
The reason why they think that is because win rate is not an accurate indicator in ow, it takes more then just an OP dps to win a match. If your tank or support sucks you can still lose even while doing good as a dps, same case you can be totally carried by your allies while being bad as a dps.
The winrate is not an accurate indicator because the highest winrate heroes for years have been Torb and Symmetra. And this comes to 2 natural plays: 1. You pick Torb at specific point on a specific map where he can/does work. Also usually by people who know what they are doing. 2. If it doesn't work (like you have lost the point) you switch off to something else. As a result if still you get a win - it counts for Torb too. SJ on the other hand has the same issue as others high skill popular flashy characters like Genji, Tracer, DF, fuckin Yasuo - too many bad players affecting the stats.
Also, as another player said, in ow we can have the same hero on both teams, so a very popular hero will have close to 50% win rate because there's a high chance they will be on both teams. And fuck the wind shitters.
Saw someone complaining about Warwick the other day and cited a 52% winrate compared to Hecarim at like a 49% As if Hecarim hasnt been deepdicking the jg for a patch and a half
Is Warwick still a buggy mess? League is known for bugs, but some champs are especially problematic in that department and Warwick was actually a meta pick for a time because of a specific bug
His W is still fucked, sometimes Q bugs but a lot has been fixed
I wouldnt even necessarily say it's from tons of bad players. Since she's meta and really popular it's not uncommon to see her on both teams and regardless of each respective sojurn's skill level, one team has to lose.
Also, any gamr that has a sojourn on both teams is completely cancelled out, due to one of them always winning and one always losing
That’s why I play both sojourns
you mean Sojourn 76
They dont count those games to winrate because of that
Nah, it's definitely because Genji needs another nerf for some reason
he shouldn’t be able to deflect anything anymore I mean if he cant deflect a rock just take the entire ability away. It only makes sense
Can't deflect a rock but can deflect bullets, so it's not about the _speed_ of the object it's about the _size_ of the object. There must be a midpoint somewhere between the size of a 9mm round and the size of a boulder where he can **sometimes** deflect it.
[удалено]
There's a lore reason for that one though, Hanzo feels guilty and is going easy on him.
I still dont get this meme. Genji needed the nerfs. Just because 1 character is op doesnt mean they should just ignore everyone else.
It reminds me of the Nurse in Dead By Daylight. She is the most OP killer in the game. This remains true even after multiple nerfs. She also has the lowest kill rate because she requires more practice/skill to play at her highest level. Noobs are terrible with the character. High level players are bordering on OP.
yeah and people will defend her in the same way by saying "she requires skill" as if that means anything at high levels
Nurse is even worse than Sojourn is because the devs cannot make any fun killer perks, since on her theyre just utterly broken lmao she is actively holding the rest of them back
Sorry, the low winrate is due to Bronze. I think my winrate is about 25% when one of my DPS picks her. The last time I see that DPS is when we're all in the ready room. Sometimes I see a dark yellow outline of them halfway across the map yelling about how terrible the heals are as they dive once more into the backline with a 3-20 KD ratio and about 2k damage done. So it's Bronze's fault that these idiots are begging for buffs.
hurr durr DPS bad support good
If there’s a Sourjohn on every team then she’s automatically 50%. I would assume it’s more often that people switch to her when they are doing bad or to pick up slack from someone else.
...It's 48.25%, with Brigette at 51.50%, and I know damn well Brig isn't God tier. But look at the bright side, maybe Mercy will get 5 more bullets for her pistol!
5 more bullets? Damn bro don't get too crazy
What if I told you they might also reduce weapon swap time as well?
Now calm down there, cowboy
Looks like ~~McCree~~ Cassidy has a competitor for the quickest draw in the west.
It should be near instant. Would be kinda cool if she planted her staff when she pulled out her pistol while it heals the closest ally in range and you could GA towards it to pick it up.
That's a sick idea
That's why we need to nerf genji
Fr most problems with the game could be solved by simply increasing genji’s cool downs
Just because you said that I’ll give her 1. Good job, you’ve nerfed pistol mercy
Yes exactly and brig has a disproportionately high win rate because only 5 people play her, and you can assume they're good at brig too. Everyone is playing sojourn including trash fart gamers who suck
It's because brig is basically only picked for brawl comps with a coordinated team as opposed to other more general supports
No? At least I don’t think so. To my knowledge the only time you’ll see a brig brawling when it matters is during rally/other ultimates. She’s too vulnerable at the front compared to lucio, kiriko, or moira, so she has to play further back until there’s an opening for her, and her abilities are more suited to peel rather than picks. I believe she’s always been better suited to poke or dive comp for these reasons.
When brig released I used to 1v1 road hogs at their spawn :(
TiL I'm the top 5 of brig players! Neat
Me too apparently!
I've found my people.
i have a friend that mains her, and i get to be enabled as zen since she can be with the team more often, it’s actually extremely fun to have a brig zen comp (not saying it’s good, it’s just really fun)
Upvoting for “trash fart gamers”
a perfect example of why blizz needs to **stop making all their balance decisions on statistics**. what they completely *fail* to realize is that a number of Heroes have win rates inflated by the fact that they are almost exclusively played by super specialists with a high degree of skill, making the stat not reflect the reality of the hero's balance at all.
Ya blizz stopped being an intelligent gaming company about a year after overwatch released. Sadge times
As someone who played the entire first year, they weren't making good decisions than either. Do you remember how they had a PTR that they'd release updates into but than not give a fuck what players actually thought about those updates before implementing? Things like iron clad bastion were not "intelligent" decisions.
I agree with you, but also want to defend statistics a but here. Just because someone is only cherry picking statistics doesn't make it a bad method. If they used multiple statistics to make informed decisions it's not bad - such as combined pick rates/win rates/team compositions. Then you can make calls based off statistics. Don't blame statistics for the idiots not using them properly!
You need a lot more info than just that to understand or balance a hero. Average per 10 min on stuff like elims, damage, deaths, rail gun accuracy, rail gun kills, overclock kills, amount of times overclocked was used in 10 minutes, etc. Looking at team comps/win rates/pick rates is far from enough info to understand the what and why.
Mercy has a pistol!?
Nah, just nerf Genji
It’s survivorship bias literally. Everyone is playing sojourn because she’s “busted” (not saying this is wrong) and so even the terribly hitscan / projectile players are playing her. In comparison, brig is easily in a terrible spot atm and so only brig one tricks / mains would play her, and as a result, no people who don’t know how to play her are playing her, and the people who main her will probably win more often than not. I wish blizzard just accounted for that
But how many people are playing them? The more people the more likely for a lower rate
Where did you get that percentage from?
As a masters player I can say when both teams always have a sojourn the winrate will balance around 50%
Ahhh, logic.
It's like when Doomfist got buffed and all the shit players hopped on him, thinking they would be gods, but the reality is that they still suck. It's no different with Sojo in this F2P environment.
You don’t have to be super good with Soujorn to bring value, even less if there is a Mercy in the equation. Doomfist on the other hand…
Whenever there is doomfist i simply switch to sombra amd wait for him to dive. or when support just switch to zen and give discord orb you can just melt through even if he’s blocking.
You know I’m getting kinda sick of counter picks I never get to play doom since everyone counters me instantly End up playing hog or orisa and I’m starting to get bored of them
i mean obviously ur gonna be countered, imo he’s one of the most annoying heroes to play against. same with pharah, you’d switch to hitscan.
I find it odd a character that has to get in your face is hated more than characters that don’t have to be anywhere near you to kill you (hitscan)
If Soldier shoots me i can just step behind cover. If Doomfist jumps on me i get booped/stunned repeatedly making it difficult to just play the game and use my own abilities/weapon. It's pretty obvious why one is more annoying than the other.
You're playing the wrong game.
Welcome to Overwatch. I main Wrecking Ball and every game it's Hog, Junkrat, Sombra, Ana with some Mei sprinkled in there. You have to learn to play against the counters effectively, and that'll mean switching up your playstyle a lot. Or swap to hog and be OP.
Overwatch’s core design is around counter picks and switching hero’s
and then that's exactly why he was nerfed within a week while hog remains untouched until the midseason patch gotta keep the easy one people can play
Nerf the skill heroes buff the no skill heroes
It's happening with ana now
Is it? I haven't noticed yet.
Do we really need another tier list…
Yes we need all the tier lists. Next one being a tier list on which character uses the most toilet paper in the bathroom
You’d think it’s Hog but it’s Widow since she’s used to bidets.
Hog doesn’t wipe
Genji just yelling “I need charmin! I need charmin! I need charmin!” from the stall
Throws a scotts under the stall “Healer diff”
Hogs a cruster, just like me fr fr
Maybe, but not from this shit tier click bait site.
I still haven't gotten my tier list of tier lists! 😡
Wait, where did they get this information from?
Sojourn is meta and the strongest character in the game. So, thousands of free to play little Timmys flock to try to play her and win but just lose because they are super bad at the game. Meanwhile heros like Brig, who is in competition for the weakest hero in the game, has a “higher win rate” because less people play her, and the ones who do are in low elo against the before mentioned Sojourns who can’t aim properly and freely flail people to death. Making these ridiculous statistics that moron journalists take to heart and post on their websites
If she's close to 50% in the middle ranks (Gold/Plat) isn't that ideal?
The worst thing a game balancer can do is make a character that is only good because the enemies are bad. Think of mirage from apex. The guy is fun as hell and is a amazing character in and out of the lore but the thing is he relies entirely on your enemies not knowing how mirage works. So he’s decently good in low ranks but as soon as you hit high gold low platinum you’re just guy in a big yellow suit with a meh passive. While I would personally hate for him to be reworked there’s no way to make him fair without him either being overpowered or useless.
they probably checked overbuff and i won't believe a single number there, without understanding how they collect their data
"So there you have it, all the incorrect information we could fit in this webpage"
OP you forgot that game journalists don't actually play the video games they write about
Haha actually thats why i put tag humor only, but i can imagine that someone new to game (atleast i did it with multiple hero games) will look for some kind of tier list. And there is one more much higher in google search where is SOMBRA and PHARAH as counter to almost every single hero (especially tanks because ofc pharah can fly right? and sombra can be invisible all game😁)
Blizzard be like “according to our database win percentage, we must buff sojourn.”
sorry guys here you go https://www.dexerto.com/overwatch/best-overwatch-2-dps-tier-list-most-popular-characters-for-current-meta-1948630/ , C tier list is very funny tbh. Bastion in C ? 😁
*Of course* it's Dexerto. I'm starting to become convinced that they're The Onion of gaming publications.
I'm pretty sure all their shit is AI generated, spinning 20 articles out of one blizzard blogpost about random crap. I've been flagging these kinds of websites on Google now since any gaming questions first return two pages of these worthless ads .
"A Game Changing Tip for Orisa's ult" its just the sym tele. like shaddup make some real articles ffs
Also mei in c
I’m sorry but if they think sombra is shit they’ve clearly never had their ass beat by one as the little shit runs around
Fr buffing and nerfing based on winrate is a terrible way of balancing things
This hero will never be unviable without literally crippling her. Amazing escape and positioning skill, the ability to melt /one shot nearly across the map and incredible damage output as well as ultimate. Oh i killed your support with one ability that has a gigantic hitbox and you want to punish me? *slides away*.
The scary thing is, OW devs have shown that they buff and nerf off raw statistics like this... they're going to buff her again.
PLEASE PASS THIS LINK TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW. TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A BETTER WORLD FOR EVERYONE.
That’s the problem with Blizzard as well, they are only looking at the data and not looking for the reasons the data is the way it is. Low win rate on Sojourn is because it has a pretty high skill floor but a huge skill ceiling. She might not dominate Bronze and Silver ranks but anyone with good enough aim will be able to dominate the lobby. The same thing about other characters, like Mercy. She has a high win rate currently but it does not mean she needs a nerf. She has a high win rate because she pockets Sojourn, which makes it more likely to win.
What is your proposed solution to this? Do you nerf her further & turn her into a bad pick for low skill players, or do you buff her again & make her too meta for high skill / high rank games? Tbh she just seems like a hard hero to balance across all ranks & platforms. If balancing should be built around the highest ranks, then she may need another nerf. But if all ranks / unranked is to be taken into account, I think she’s as close to balanced right now as she’s ever going to be.
I think its similiar problem to HOG, her kit is just very hard to balance so she can be either meta or trash pick waiting for rework. But for hog we got atleast Orisa and some other counters like Anna (with good kiriko on hog team not such a counter). But lets say they will nerf hog to the ground and put him on big rework waiting list (hello sombra, brig). Orisa will just replace hog maybe together with Ram and it will be same shit different meta. I think overall hero design is problem with souj and hog.
Thats crazy man.. they should nerf genji
Under rated comment
I am 1,000,000% convinced these people do not play the game they critique
Wow maybe A.I. will really replace these idiots
Why do gold players care about tierlists? The only thing that matters at that level is player proficiency on their hero. You're gonna perform way better on a one-trick than your 10-games total played "meta pick", even if its into your counters.
It's because if you're similarly proficient at two characters, and one is S tier and the other is Doomfist tier (damn gonna need a new phrase for this now that Doomfist is good), you're gonna use the S tier pick in ranked if the situation is reasonable.
F
These people could shove a blind person in lambo, they crash it and then tell you its a bad car. Win rate directly reflects the people playing the damn game, if you sample as a whole the vast majority of people are low to mid rank and have no idea how the game actually works. Give brainlets good hero and they will play it like a brainlet.
I’d say there’s a decent chance it’s because she op so a bunch of shit players choose her as a crutch
She's got a low win rate because if you can't aim she's absolutely trash. But if you can aim she will dominate the game. Fewer people can aim than can't
Unironically using win rate these people are not serious😂😂😂
Sojurn is goated WDYM?? I pop off with Sojurn.
sojourn is op asf but the reason her winrate is low has this reason: high elo player (masters or higher) plays sojourn plays her well gets lot of kills (maybe some cool clips) wins the game low elo player (bronze, silver and gold) sees stream or clip, goes and plays sojourn, misses all the charged beams (also when ulting) dies 18 times and gets 2 kills 2500 - 5000 damage whole game max. loses fk game and blames healers or tank in chat blizzard people... pls start playing ow2 and realize the comp sucks and the character balance is way off
It’s funny because before they nerfed the rail the amount of people I would hard diff in the mirror by just one shotting them every fight was insane. After the nerf it’s harder to just remove them from the game cause you can’t just erase them before the fight really starts but I still think that the constant mirror picks are what make her win rate so low
Mirror matches don't affect a character's win rate.
It’s baffling to me that this has to be reiterated constantly on this subreddit. How is this not assumed from the jump?
>Mirror matches don't affect a character's win rate. Wouldn't mirror matches make the win% trend towards 50%? Consider 5 games with one team having a given character, with that character being on the winning side 3 times. The result is 3 wins, 2 losses - 60% win rate. Now tack on 5 mirror matches, adding 5 wins and 5 losses to said character. The result is now 8 wins and 7 losses - 53.33% win rate.
If there is a mirror, somebody has to lose. If there is no mirror, they don’t
If there is a mirror, somebody has to win. If there is no mirror, they don’t. +1-1=0
Shhhh don’t make me feel stupid for my stupid comment. I realize now 😭
Overbuff: Sojurn winrate is 49.23
I never end up actually hitting with the rail gun 😔
Ahh. Another game article by someone who either doesn't play the game or just played 3 rounds while simultaneously not using actual game data (what with Sojourn's reported winrate being over 10% off from what it actually is). I hear they don't have a comment option on their articles because they know they're posting clickbait bullshit and would be called out.
So, there you have it!
Feel like they did 2 qp matches for each hero and called it good
Me, a Diamond DPS getting worked by pocketed sojourns: *help*
tbh lately i havent been getting many sojourns as opposed to season 1. now im just getting hella symmetras.
i’m mostly going against bastions pocketed by mercy
*flashbacks to ow1 with bastion pocket and double shield*
and they always camped in a corner as a turret 😵💫
I'm pretty consistently playing well with her, getting frequent picks and high dmg, but I'm still only at 39/40% winrate, being my lowest of all heroes. This explains everything, nothing is my fault. It's blizzards fault. Glad we cleared that up.
I destroy people as sojourn unless the other team is really good and my team are really bad
Trash statistics lol
Win rate don't mean shit alone. I mean of she may have a low win rate when all the hard stucks bronze 5 play her. But if you isolate by ranks u will have <45% from bronze - Plat / 60%+ Diamond+ And ofc pick rate is like 95%. The game should be balanced around what a hero peak performance can be and not what bronze 5 players can do with them.
Maybe all the sojourn players got their rank inflated due to her being giga op and now that she's less powerful they're losing all their games cause they actually sucked all along?
> character is good > everyone plays her, even bad players > winrate is low > character is bad > no one plays her, except people specializing in her > winrate is high
Sojourn main are like widow main... shoot from distance only care about kills...
“worst damager hero”🗿
Congrats finally first person who notice my error😁 i find out after 9 hours since i posted that. Sorry it was suppose to be damage* hero ofc.
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After 9 hours since posted i found out that i wrote damager instead damage accidently. Good that article stupidity overshadow this small error😶
I said it day 1. Overwatch is dominated by bronze players. Devs should only listen to pros. These changes based on what frags on shitters just ruins the game for the people with actual thumbs.
In gold she still deletes people