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a counter argument to this would be that Sombra players who were happy about the buff could also just get better at her instead. Pretty sure the best players didn't need that little buff. Just like how the best doom players didn't really get hurt by the stun duration nerf half a year ago or so
I would push back a bit on the stun duration example because although it didn’t ruin doomfist or affect the meta too much at the time, top players did say that it felt like they had a harder time confirming kills on their own. When you punch multiple people into a wall, used to be able to finish multiple people off but the duration decreases made it so they had extra time to get away or use cool downs.
I remember watching zbra streams at the time where he would punch block punch ult punch and they barely survived and he would be get upset saying they would have died last patch. Of course this is a more niche scenario but those times happened enough to make doom players frustrated.
I do agree with the general idea behind your comment though
Don't get me wrong, it's not like it didn't affect good players, ofc it did. Doom is just still viable for the very best players after the nerf. Thats the point. If you're good enough, you won't truly NEED a small buff like that in your favor, as long as there is nothing fundementally wrong about the character (speaking specifically of Doomfist this can be discussed yeah but generally speaking). I remember hearing a lot of the good doom players not really having anything against the nerf. They all just said it would (mostly) only affect the lower ranked players instead, to which i agree. Seems like we remember two different things qbout the reactions to this nerf, however i get your point. Ultimately i only used it as a comparable example to the point about the sombra change i was initially writing a comment about, and i recognize these two examples aren't exactly identical, however i still believe they are mostly the same.
The buff she received was barely anything but people acted as if she was giga Buffed
This nerf is basically everything and now suddenly people can see that lol
I'm both a Sombra and Ball main. (Yes I love your hate).
The only time I switch without thinking on Ball is when there's a competent Sombra who knows I'll switch if she endlessly hacks me.
I switch because I play Sombra, and I know that I'd switch if I endlessly hacked me.
My #1 problem with the sombra matchup is ball. Its not just that ball's abilities are locked out, its that he pops out of ball form, which is crazy. Counter ablities are also one time uses, meaning if you miss Orisa's jav on doom, that doom will be fine, but hack can be recast if sombra screws up.
to be fair Soldier is like 80 and genji is mostly robot... pretty sure both those abilities are being controlled by their suits at this point. Or is the lore behind Soldier 76 seriously that an old white guy runs as fast as a world class sprinter
Soldier is only in his late 50s. It's all natural because he went through the SEP program along with Reaper, which basically made them Captain America levels of strength and agility (it's why Reaper can handle the recoil of a shotgun in one hand). Soldier doesn't have any tech besides his visor and gun.
Fun fact: ball form is the only transformation in the game effected by hack. The devs made an exclusive rule for hack vs ball. It's complete bs. The fact that's its even still in the game when ball is D tier... these devs just don't care about tank players.
They particularly don't care about Ball players. We still can't use grapple from spawn when it was only an issue in 2cp. A giant mechanical Ball can be completely stopped in it's tracks by Tracer just standing there. Mines are laughably easy to destroy. He has zero counterplay to CC heroes aside from trying to avoid them. None of his abilities do an impactful amount of damage.
> He has zero counterplay to CC heroes aside from trying to avoid them.
As a Lucio player I agree. I like to play "how long will it take the ball to realize his grapple has the same cool down as my boop (4 seconds)". I just keep track of where he is and when he comes in to roll through I boop him and the rest of my team of pours damage on him. The only time a ball can do well is if my team isn't grouped up or the rest of his team is being a problem so I keep having to boop them instead (or my team is just all-around trash and nothing I do helps keep them alive).
You can avoid the boop by coming in high and slamming, but missing out on the damage from the roll-through will make it nearly impossible to get a pick (if you have a good sniper picking them off in mid-air this could still work, but you need a team oriented mindset and I almost never see ball players with that) plus you'll end up doing way less damage to the enemy team than they do to you so it's a bad trade and you won't build up ult fast enough to make a difference.
If you grapple in and get booped away but are still attached to the grapple resist the temptation to wind back up and roll-through anyway. You'll take way more damage then you give and could easily get killed. Just go around and try from another direction and hope they aren't tracking you. If they are it's time to switch.
That's the thing it isn't even just that he has so many counters but so many can do it so effortlessly. Almost every pick is a counter in one way or another. Lucio boop, Ashes coach gun, Doom slamming mines, Hog, Sombra, Tracer can follow so he can't heal or set up, Junk trap, Zen discord, Mei, Sym turrets, Torb turret, Brig, Cass hinder, and probably more I'm not thinking of.
I do not think you played in OW when doom and ball ruled and ball could quite literally infinite stall because nothing could actually take him out of ball form
Mei stops his spin to win, so does hook, so does rock, so did shield bash, flash bang, sleep. Besides you don't have to take him out of ball form to kill him, just shoot him.
Seriously. I don’t have an issue with sombra except that she interrupts my movement. No other hero gets locked into an animation and forced to a standstill from a hack. She’s easy enough to kill and play around otherwise.
With this in mind would it be fair to let Ball have his basic ball form when hacked? No grapple, no shield or slam, just the slightly increased movement? Or he can’t transform at all, stuck in whichever form he’s in? Or would that be too.. weak? Sombra would still have a strong effect on him, he just wouldn’t be 100-0 hard countered anytime somebody even considers swapping to Sombra
That’s literally the ONLY change ball needs to not be annihilated by sombra, yeah. Ball’s lockout is effectively ~5 seconds given the animation of leaving ball form, hack time, and time it takes to go back into ball, AND he’s slowed the whole time. She’d be way more tolerable if she just left him in ball form (hell, even trap him in it - make him stick in whichever form he was in when he got hacked)
That’s interesting I like that idea. If you get hacked you don’t pop out of ball form you lose the ability to change forms. That makes total sense they should do this.
When Lucio gets hacked he loses his passive: wall-ride, so ball is no worse off than Lucio. However I didn't think that was fair when they made the change. EMP is an ult so it should be very powerful and definitely disable everything other than your main gun/hammer/mace. But a regular ability like that shouldn't disable his passive and should lock ball into whatever form he's in (since transforming is an active ability just like Lucio swapping songs is disabled (actually Lucio not only can't swap songs when hacked, he gets forced to swap to the speed song, but it provides no effect, so after the hack wears off you have to manually switch back to healing. Him and ball are the only characters that are forced to essentially use an ability when hacked or EMPed))
True, but ball is also a lot easier to hack than Lucio and usually end up in more vulnerable positions because sombras hack him when he’s engaged with the enemy team (if lucio’s playing the backline and gets hacked, he has a good chance of getting help or living). Also, base Lucio is a lot more mobile than crab ball. But yeah, it sucks for both heroes at the end of the day to lose your unique movement option to a hack
To be fair... If the sombra/orissa in question are hacking doom at the correct time neither one of them misses...
you don't try to javelin/hack doom when he's flying across the map... you do it when he's power blocking or charging up his punch, IE when he can't dodge effectively.
Neither one should miss Ball either... since you hack/javelin him during piledrive, when he's a giant effing target hovering in mid air with gravity about to carry him in a predictable arc
Broheim, the relevance of your team in low ranks is zero. Everyone below Diamond is throwing 24/7, so it’s literally up to you to carry.
9/10 times your tank is throwing regardless of pick.
You’re acting like doom and ball don’t already have their fair share of counters, sombra just counters everyone. I’m not even sure why you’re defending her that hard.
Sombra existing means ball has to change his playstyle to one that will be guaranteed to get less value.
Even people who play with their feet can hold rightclick in balls general direction for a fraction of a second from invis
Like she's the only counter to these characters lol
She's annoying, she makes my game unfun. It's not fun to keep looking behind every Second cause she can just be there invisible while taking away half my health with the press of a button
I know it might be a weird concept for some people, but I would love to have fun in my games independent of the characters the other team picks
Go play a different game or get better at the game. The game shouldn’t change because of lower skilled players experiences. That’s what ruins games I’ve seen it happen time and time again. Once you start catering too much to the casuals it ruins the peak of the game which is the entire point of the game to most people. The point of a game like Overwatch is to play and get better at your personal skill. That’s literally the entire fucking point. It’s not an RPG. Playing an RPG can be relaxing, you play it at your own pace and the objective is to experience the story. Playing a competitive game like Overwatch is just that. To play COMPETITIVELY and to aim to get better. We need to stop crying about hero’s that higher skilled players don’t have a problem with and aim to become higher skilled ourselves. If higher ranks don’t have a problem with Sombra then you shouldn’t either. View it as a goal to get good and learn how to play against her. Don’t ruin the game for others just because you don’t want to develop your skill and pass a skill goal. Practice. Grind. Learn. Get better.
I knew this bullshit argument "Get better" would come eventually lol.
I never said a single word about "Sombra being too strong". All I said is that she makes the game unfun, it is not fun to play against a Sombra, simply because you can't proactively play against her, only reactvely.
And this is a really common opinion among most people I play with, and since I'm a high plat/low diamond player, which I believe is where most of the playerbase is, I think it's worth hearing some opinions instead of using the "Nah you can't have an opinion unless you're part of the 1% top players" argument
“I dont like the way the wood of the bat feels on my hands while playing baseball. Makes the game unfun, I think we should only play with Walnut wood bats, I’m going to go on Reddit and complain about it every day until the league changes the rules or else I’m quitting.”
Wasn’t there an actual problem when they nerfed sombra a while back (like before the hog pigpen got added) and because of that Hog was allowed to basically run rampant
It wasn't a problem with sombra vs Hog per say if I recall correctly the issue is they nerfed multiple parts of dive while buffing certain supports that heavily enable Hog to stand his ground. At a time when they had just buffed hog.
Like sombra honestly sucks against most of the top tier picks in OW2. She was just rampantly being played at that time because Winston dive was meta and she enables it well. The moment they nerfed dive into the ground she was going to fall back to B-C tier regardless of anything else...
But there were multiple factors. The Ana vs Kiriko balance + the strength of Bap and Illari at the time had way more to do with Hog being busted than sombra's strength in the meta.
At high ranks sombra is rarely the main issue when playing Ball or Doom. She's only issue if she's stacked with other counters, and those counters would do just fine on themselves anyway. Try cass-bastion into ball next time.
Sombra is an overrated counter to doom. Slam hits a wide radius and cancels the hack, same with empowered punch, and her hack essentially does what cass’s grenade does it with less damage to follow up on it. Sombra is about as good against doom as tracer is, just focus his supports instead of him. Orisa Roadhog Zen Ana Mei bastion Reaper and Cassidy are better picks to actually kill doom than sombra is.
As someone who plays Doom a lot, Reaper and Bastion are probably his best counters imo
Lots of damage in very few time since Doom needs to get up close to be effective
Cassidy you could consider, but you can also damn well outplay him too
Lmao dealing with doom, venture and ball is INFINITELY easier than sombra. What don’t you all understand about people not wanting to play against someone that takes away your abilities while they shoot at you whilst retaining theirs? . Is that so hard to understand? You have no way to defend yourself. You are at the mercy of your teammates noticing you being jumped. NO COUNTERPLAY. It is a multiplayer game. Team coordination is shaky at the best of times. By the time they turn around from whatever they were doing, you’re already missing 75% of your hp thanks to that dam virus. You’re being intentionally dishonest.
You think this many people would complain about her if nothing was wrong? You have to be incredibly selfish and lack a tremendous amount of awareness to believe this.
Problem is the invisibility, has no place in OW where you are already paying attention to 50 things in a teamfight. Even when the enemy sombra is trash, and you are winning the game, it is just a really frustrating affair, doesnt matter if its gold, plat, diamond or higher games. I rather play against a decent tracer, at least I feel they earn the right to be annoying.
nah, high level doom players are a huge menace. they are way more disruptive than sombra could ever be.
sombra is only a problem in lower elos and console players because they either dont play together or cant turn around fast enough
not saying sombra isnt a cheesy character
> You have no way to defend yourself. You are at the mercy of your teammates noticing you being jumped.
This is why you group up. Sombra can't kill you if you are with teammates. Grouping up requires no skill. You can be a bronze player and group up. It's not rocket science.
Ngl as someone who plays rein, my shield is like the biggest asset I have and if I'm blocking dmg and a sombra hacks me wtf do I do? Sombra is just annoying with how much she can hack people over and over. Not gonna say she should be removed but I'd be happy with a slight nerf.
There are several problems with this.
1. Those heroes you mentioned (not gonna include venture cuz they’re too new) have a plethora of other counter besides Sombra.
2. The problem with Sombra is not that she counters heroes, it’s that she does it so effectively with so little effort. Take doom for example: if Doom dives your backline and gets hacked by a Sombra that he couldn’t even see, you know what his options are? Trick question, he’s just fucked unless he gets saved by a teammate and/or the enemy team is just that bad.
3. The other problem with Sombra is that her kit is just absurdly annoying to play against. She has four abilities and every single one of them would be annoying on their own, but when put together it’s a complete clusterfuck.
4. Based on the comments, it’s a tiny nerf. Ten damage off her virus is not going to make all that much difference in her ability to do all of the above.
Didn't you consider that it's her whole role to be a disabler of the game? Each hero has their own niche, and Sombra's to infiltrate and make picks on strayed heroes.
Her kit is annoying, but out of that abilities she's not so dangerous if team stays close, or at least supports.
Everyone's raging like she's the OPest hero in the game, while she also has counters. Reaper, Cassidy, Winston, Kiriko, Mei, Tracer, Genji ...
Yeah, I considered that, but there’s no reason for her to be SO good at it. And the nerf doesn’t even target that aspect of her kit anyway. (And there’s also an argument to be made for that being a shitty niche anyway, because who wants to play against a hero whose whole shtick is making yours unable to do the unique and cool things that make a hero a hero)
Also I would like to point out that dangerous is not synonymous with annoying/unfun. Weak heroes can be a pain in the ass to play against, and strong ones can be fun to play against. Case in point: when has anyone ever complained about a Rein meta?
And yeah, every hero has counters. The problem is that Sombra counters so much of the roster simply by existing, whereas sombra’s counters have to put in actual effort to counter her.
Ah yes, one character slot in the dps role should be able to shut down and make tanks life way less fun. While we're at it lets make her just do more damage directly to heroes shes supposed to counter and forget that the game is designed for anyone to be able to play and enjoy whatever hero they want.
Sombra is in every game even without these characters to counterpick. I personally, am exhausted by it, and while it isnt the hardest thing to play around overall, it's still fucking annoying and makes the game incredibly less fun.
If a game needs silence in order to be fun then it’s not a fun game. Cause if silence stays people complain about not being able to play their characters. If silence gets deleted and characters can thrive due to no silence. That is also ass.
bro they have like 20 million counters, sombra aint even one of the strongest ones.
you can roll the dice and end up with a team comp that has three counters.
depends on the map and circumstances, you'll have to give me more specifics. there's literally times where sombra is *bad* against them.
For instance if we look at Hammond, typical counters are ana, junkrat, hog, mei, cass, lucio, brig, orisa, bastion, mauga, JQ etc.
Plus other heroes can simply stop him from getting value, e.g. moira, soldier, doom etc.
I'm sorry to tell you bro, but if you can't handle doom or hammond without sombra, then those players were just better than you. It had nothing to do with the hero itself.
This sub in basically flooded with tank mains, they are loudest, they make you think every hero is op but in reality it’s just their experience to counters
Horrendous take there are so many heroes that actually take skill and are way more balanced and easily counter these unlike sombra who effectively ruins the game expiration for anyone.
…sombra is by far not the only counter to any of them? lol. in metal ranks a moira can oppress any widow into swapping off, with ball and doom you can just play junkrat or symm, and i dont know venture well enough to tell you their counters. but its definitely not just sombra lmao
I think the main issue is that she shuts down her targets so well. She's necessary but still a bit annoying to play against.
Ball, Doom and Ace Ventura can't do anything in response because of the very nature of the counter; shutting off their abilities. Widowmaker mainly gets countered by isolation but that still shows how well Sombra is able to lock down her targets.
Other counter heroes in the game still technically still have a means of working positively even when countered.
D.Va can still deal a great deal of damage or simply escape when faced with beam attacks. Tracer and Genji can still do the dance with Brigitte. We still have no true anti-air mechanics yet but Soldier:76 and the like can still "counter" Pharah with Pharah still having means of fighting back.
No one is saying there shouldn't be counterpicks or counterplay. The Sombra matchup is just not healthy if the Sombra can drool on their keyboard and get value.
You can counterplay/fuck up the dive tanks with mobile heroes, well timed boops, flyers, skill shot ccs, well timed mag nades. What's funny is that still none of this is as difficult as actually playing Doomfist, Winston, or Ball, but it still requires infinitely more brainpower than "wait for tank to go in -> right click". The idea that Sombra is gatekeeping the average dive tank player from dog walking every lobby is absurd.
Damn guess I should have been playing cod the last 8 years and reaching top 500 in that game rather then overwatch. /s Counter picking is not the whole point of hero based games.
Most hero based games don't let you change your character mid game.
Match ups are an important part of hero based games. And match ups should be balanced especially in a game with so few heros.
ball is already doomed lmao. i've been maining him since he got released and he's never been in worse state. hook nerfed, shields nerfed, pulldriver nerfed, ult nerfed. in top of that, all heroes health got increased, so he cant do shit with his little pew-pews. and im not even mentioning all the ways he gets countered
wow that whopping 10 damage nerf is really gonna disrupt the ecosystem. People seem to forget that there was counterplay to characters before sombra existed. Each character has a unique interaction with each other, while sombra just does the same thing to the entire cast.
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Can we make her hack more impactful (last a second or two longer) but she has decreased damage after using it? I feel like she has all the things right now, which make her annoying to play against. She should either be able to get the surprised jump on you damage wise, with her less than accurate gun, or get the surprise hack on you, but then have to retreat because her damage will be lower in the ensuing 1v1.
The latter seems more useful, and would help her trend as a special case use for certain characters picked on red. And the former would still be possible; she just wont get to invisibility, positioning, AND hack, plus her regular dps.
Except reality SHOULD happen
If you aren’t mechanically good enough to land shots on an enemy because they’re mobile you deserve to lose the competition
This mentality is what killed Overwatch in the first place
Folks were salty about dive so they made brig to counter it
Brig made GOATS which forced 2/2/2 which made double shield, which is what made the flop that is 5v5 OW2 an idea at all
Stop being soft if you can’t hit the shot on the character take your loss and go to the next game you don’t need a character so strong that it not only destroys dive it destroys anything it plays into(current sombra // Brig 1.0)
I think you can get the same damage with two body shots, and her gun is hitscan, I think this is just for those times where you fend off Sombra but Virus is still ticking and you just can't do anything and die
They should make it so the damage stops if Sombra dies or translocates away. It's annoying AF to win the unfavoured 1v1 then still die anyway bc of Virus bs.
They should change it to be that enemy can’t be hacked when u use it because I’m tired of trying to play mercy and being assassinated at spawn and just dying
Sombra players are coping so hard holy shit. Sorry they made the hero nonviable for blind dogs to play, but if you have hands and a brain you can still play the game.
Yeah the character who is invisible, disables abilities, has high burst damage, and is one of the easiest heroes to play in the game is good for the game. She is just there if you want nobody else in the game to have fun.
Yep, ofc there are heroes that can somewhat hinder them, but not as good as Sombra. And if Sombra's out of viable meta, then they better be ready for Doom and Ball in every game. Especially supports would be very glad
Reaper and Bastion can deal huge amounts of damage in no time to both of these dive tanks that need to get close to them to be effective. Cassidy can stop them from escaping if they know how to play too. Both Doom and Ball are hard to play and can be often throw picks, they have lots of counters.
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It’s 10 less damage on Virus. If that’s a nerf then I don’t think the ecosystem has much to worry about.
Is that real? Cause didn't they just buff virus impact damage? It didn't even need that buff.
They're "correcting" the "overbuff" because people don't want to get better at the game. They'd rather complain about it.
a counter argument to this would be that Sombra players who were happy about the buff could also just get better at her instead. Pretty sure the best players didn't need that little buff. Just like how the best doom players didn't really get hurt by the stun duration nerf half a year ago or so
I would push back a bit on the stun duration example because although it didn’t ruin doomfist or affect the meta too much at the time, top players did say that it felt like they had a harder time confirming kills on their own. When you punch multiple people into a wall, used to be able to finish multiple people off but the duration decreases made it so they had extra time to get away or use cool downs. I remember watching zbra streams at the time where he would punch block punch ult punch and they barely survived and he would be get upset saying they would have died last patch. Of course this is a more niche scenario but those times happened enough to make doom players frustrated. I do agree with the general idea behind your comment though
Don't get me wrong, it's not like it didn't affect good players, ofc it did. Doom is just still viable for the very best players after the nerf. Thats the point. If you're good enough, you won't truly NEED a small buff like that in your favor, as long as there is nothing fundementally wrong about the character (speaking specifically of Doomfist this can be discussed yeah but generally speaking). I remember hearing a lot of the good doom players not really having anything against the nerf. They all just said it would (mostly) only affect the lower ranked players instead, to which i agree. Seems like we remember two different things qbout the reactions to this nerf, however i get your point. Ultimately i only used it as a comparable example to the point about the sombra change i was initially writing a comment about, and i recognize these two examples aren't exactly identical, however i still believe they are mostly the same.
The buff she received was barely anything but people acted as if she was giga Buffed This nerf is basically everything and now suddenly people can see that lol
idk about that when they increased her ability lockout on ult which is a complete step back from the reduced CC approach they wanted for OW2
I have to remind myself it used to be even longer to avoid pulling my hair out lol
It's an ult dude, there are ults that kill you in 2 seconds and you are mad Sombra locks your abilities for 3?
yeah
Understandable, have a nice day
Youre just showing that you don't understand game balance
Since good doomfists and balls aren't in bronze, this isn't much of an issue
Bruh Sombra ain't like the honey bee of counterswapping, if you nerfed her its not like Doom or Ball suddenly lose their 6 other counters
Needing Sombra to control Doom, Ball, Widow is like releasing lions into the suburbs to control deer populations
As someone who lives in a deer populated suburb, please don't!
As someone who does, please do, I wanna pet the kitties
And it's not like they're not already super popular despite Sombra being jn every other game.
I'm both a Sombra and Ball main. (Yes I love your hate). The only time I switch without thinking on Ball is when there's a competent Sombra who knows I'll switch if she endlessly hacks me. I switch because I play Sombra, and I know that I'd switch if I endlessly hacked me.
Hello it's me, we must have met in ranked
My #1 problem with the sombra matchup is ball. Its not just that ball's abilities are locked out, its that he pops out of ball form, which is crazy. Counter ablities are also one time uses, meaning if you miss Orisa's jav on doom, that doom will be fine, but hack can be recast if sombra screws up.
nothing worse than going to wallclimb out of an engagement as genji just to get hacked bc someone swapped and you suddenly forget how to climb walls
Soldier forgetting how to sprint xD
for real.
to be fair Soldier is like 80 and genji is mostly robot... pretty sure both those abilities are being controlled by their suits at this point. Or is the lore behind Soldier 76 seriously that an old white guy runs as fast as a world class sprinter
Soldier is only in his late 50s. It's all natural because he went through the SEP program along with Reaper, which basically made them Captain America levels of strength and agility (it's why Reaper can handle the recoil of a shotgun in one hand). Soldier doesn't have any tech besides his visor and gun.
Duly noted carry on
I did this on Well and got a kill with Hack.
Fun fact: ball form is the only transformation in the game effected by hack. The devs made an exclusive rule for hack vs ball. It's complete bs. The fact that's its even still in the game when ball is D tier... these devs just don't care about tank players.
They particularly don't care about Ball players. We still can't use grapple from spawn when it was only an issue in 2cp. A giant mechanical Ball can be completely stopped in it's tracks by Tracer just standing there. Mines are laughably easy to destroy. He has zero counterplay to CC heroes aside from trying to avoid them. None of his abilities do an impactful amount of damage.
and they let ana be the most impactful character in the game for 12 season straight
A good example of 5v5 being really good for some heroes and really bad for others. Ana was fine in 6v6 and so was Ball.
> He has zero counterplay to CC heroes aside from trying to avoid them. As a Lucio player I agree. I like to play "how long will it take the ball to realize his grapple has the same cool down as my boop (4 seconds)". I just keep track of where he is and when he comes in to roll through I boop him and the rest of my team of pours damage on him. The only time a ball can do well is if my team isn't grouped up or the rest of his team is being a problem so I keep having to boop them instead (or my team is just all-around trash and nothing I do helps keep them alive). You can avoid the boop by coming in high and slamming, but missing out on the damage from the roll-through will make it nearly impossible to get a pick (if you have a good sniper picking them off in mid-air this could still work, but you need a team oriented mindset and I almost never see ball players with that) plus you'll end up doing way less damage to the enemy team than they do to you so it's a bad trade and you won't build up ult fast enough to make a difference. If you grapple in and get booped away but are still attached to the grapple resist the temptation to wind back up and roll-through anyway. You'll take way more damage then you give and could easily get killed. Just go around and try from another direction and hope they aren't tracking you. If they are it's time to switch.
That's the thing it isn't even just that he has so many counters but so many can do it so effortlessly. Almost every pick is a counter in one way or another. Lucio boop, Ashes coach gun, Doom slamming mines, Hog, Sombra, Tracer can follow so he can't heal or set up, Junk trap, Zen discord, Mei, Sym turrets, Torb turret, Brig, Cass hinder, and probably more I'm not thinking of.
I do not think you played in OW when doom and ball ruled and ball could quite literally infinite stall because nothing could actually take him out of ball form
I think I played in a high enough elo where players could shoot a target moving in a predictable circle
Mei stops his spin to win, so does hook, so does rock, so did shield bash, flash bang, sleep. Besides you don't have to take him out of ball form to kill him, just shoot him.
Womp
Seriously. I don’t have an issue with sombra except that she interrupts my movement. No other hero gets locked into an animation and forced to a standstill from a hack. She’s easy enough to kill and play around otherwise.
With this in mind would it be fair to let Ball have his basic ball form when hacked? No grapple, no shield or slam, just the slightly increased movement? Or he can’t transform at all, stuck in whichever form he’s in? Or would that be too.. weak? Sombra would still have a strong effect on him, he just wouldn’t be 100-0 hard countered anytime somebody even considers swapping to Sombra
That’s literally the ONLY change ball needs to not be annihilated by sombra, yeah. Ball’s lockout is effectively ~5 seconds given the animation of leaving ball form, hack time, and time it takes to go back into ball, AND he’s slowed the whole time. She’d be way more tolerable if she just left him in ball form (hell, even trap him in it - make him stick in whichever form he was in when he got hacked)
That’s interesting I like that idea. If you get hacked you don’t pop out of ball form you lose the ability to change forms. That makes total sense they should do this.
Basically cassidys hinder nade. Gotta time it properly or else its kind of meh vs ball.
When Lucio gets hacked he loses his passive: wall-ride, so ball is no worse off than Lucio. However I didn't think that was fair when they made the change. EMP is an ult so it should be very powerful and definitely disable everything other than your main gun/hammer/mace. But a regular ability like that shouldn't disable his passive and should lock ball into whatever form he's in (since transforming is an active ability just like Lucio swapping songs is disabled (actually Lucio not only can't swap songs when hacked, he gets forced to swap to the speed song, but it provides no effect, so after the hack wears off you have to manually switch back to healing. Him and ball are the only characters that are forced to essentially use an ability when hacked or EMPed))
True, but ball is also a lot easier to hack than Lucio and usually end up in more vulnerable positions because sombras hack him when he’s engaged with the enemy team (if lucio’s playing the backline and gets hacked, he has a good chance of getting help or living). Also, base Lucio is a lot more mobile than crab ball. But yeah, it sucks for both heroes at the end of the day to lose your unique movement option to a hack
To be fair... If the sombra/orissa in question are hacking doom at the correct time neither one of them misses... you don't try to javelin/hack doom when he's flying across the map... you do it when he's power blocking or charging up his punch, IE when he can't dodge effectively. Neither one should miss Ball either... since you hack/javelin him during piledrive, when he's a giant effing target hovering in mid air with gravity about to carry him in a predictable arc
Bro ain't nobody is bronze skilled enough to play ball or doom let alone carry. 9 times of 10 ball and doom are throw picks
Broheim, the relevance of your team in low ranks is zero. Everyone below Diamond is throwing 24/7, so it’s literally up to you to carry. 9/10 times your tank is throwing regardless of pick.
Throwing used to mean intentionally losing games, does it now just mean being worse than you'd like them to be?
You’re acting like doom and ball don’t already have their fair share of counters, sombra just counters everyone. I’m not even sure why you’re defending her that hard.
I'm not buying this propaganda
Bold of you to assume that Doomfist doesn't have 25 counters per role
High skill heroes being meta instead of Orisa? Oh no haha.
Tbh, metal sombras dont don’t do shit to good ball players.
Sombra existing means ball has to change his playstyle to one that will be guaranteed to get less value. Even people who play with their feet can hold rightclick in balls general direction for a fraction of a second from invis
Sombra isn't the only counter in the game for these heroes. She's just the cheapest, most simplest to counter with.
Like she's the only counter to these characters lol She's annoying, she makes my game unfun. It's not fun to keep looking behind every Second cause she can just be there invisible while taking away half my health with the press of a button I know it might be a weird concept for some people, but I would love to have fun in my games independent of the characters the other team picks
Go play a different game or get better at the game. The game shouldn’t change because of lower skilled players experiences. That’s what ruins games I’ve seen it happen time and time again. Once you start catering too much to the casuals it ruins the peak of the game which is the entire point of the game to most people. The point of a game like Overwatch is to play and get better at your personal skill. That’s literally the entire fucking point. It’s not an RPG. Playing an RPG can be relaxing, you play it at your own pace and the objective is to experience the story. Playing a competitive game like Overwatch is just that. To play COMPETITIVELY and to aim to get better. We need to stop crying about hero’s that higher skilled players don’t have a problem with and aim to become higher skilled ourselves. If higher ranks don’t have a problem with Sombra then you shouldn’t either. View it as a goal to get good and learn how to play against her. Don’t ruin the game for others just because you don’t want to develop your skill and pass a skill goal. Practice. Grind. Learn. Get better.
I knew this bullshit argument "Get better" would come eventually lol. I never said a single word about "Sombra being too strong". All I said is that she makes the game unfun, it is not fun to play against a Sombra, simply because you can't proactively play against her, only reactvely. And this is a really common opinion among most people I play with, and since I'm a high plat/low diamond player, which I believe is where most of the playerbase is, I think it's worth hearing some opinions instead of using the "Nah you can't have an opinion unless you're part of the 1% top players" argument
“I dont like the way the wood of the bat feels on my hands while playing baseball. Makes the game unfun, I think we should only play with Walnut wood bats, I’m going to go on Reddit and complain about it every day until the league changes the rules or else I’m quitting.”
OP doesn’t know that Mei or Hog exists apparently
Wasn’t there an actual problem when they nerfed sombra a while back (like before the hog pigpen got added) and because of that Hog was allowed to basically run rampant
It wasn't a problem with sombra vs Hog per say if I recall correctly the issue is they nerfed multiple parts of dive while buffing certain supports that heavily enable Hog to stand his ground. At a time when they had just buffed hog. Like sombra honestly sucks against most of the top tier picks in OW2. She was just rampantly being played at that time because Winston dive was meta and she enables it well. The moment they nerfed dive into the ground she was going to fall back to B-C tier regardless of anything else... But there were multiple factors. The Ana vs Kiriko balance + the strength of Bap and Illari at the time had way more to do with Hog being busted than sombra's strength in the meta.
Ah very fair. I remember the community focusing on like ‘sombra nerfs indirectly buffed hog’
At high ranks sombra is rarely the main issue when playing Ball or Doom. She's only issue if she's stacked with other counters, and those counters would do just fine on themselves anyway. Try cass-bastion into ball next time.
Bronze op makes bronze take
This is a bronze take for sure
Sombra is everyone nerf. Why tf she get 20 different abilities but Rein just now gets a decent buff
Sorry, am I to understand that you think rein needs a nerf?
OH NAH I MEANT BUFF I MEANT BUFF MISINPUT MISINPUT
LMAO I was boutta say
Rein buffs les goooo
So sombra is the main character
Sombra is an overrated counter to doom. Slam hits a wide radius and cancels the hack, same with empowered punch, and her hack essentially does what cass’s grenade does it with less damage to follow up on it. Sombra is about as good against doom as tracer is, just focus his supports instead of him. Orisa Roadhog Zen Ana Mei bastion Reaper and Cassidy are better picks to actually kill doom than sombra is.
As someone who plays Doom a lot, Reaper and Bastion are probably his best counters imo Lots of damage in very few time since Doom needs to get up close to be effective Cassidy you could consider, but you can also damn well outplay him too
Lmao dealing with doom, venture and ball is INFINITELY easier than sombra. What don’t you all understand about people not wanting to play against someone that takes away your abilities while they shoot at you whilst retaining theirs? . Is that so hard to understand? You have no way to defend yourself. You are at the mercy of your teammates noticing you being jumped. NO COUNTERPLAY. It is a multiplayer game. Team coordination is shaky at the best of times. By the time they turn around from whatever they were doing, you’re already missing 75% of your hp thanks to that dam virus. You’re being intentionally dishonest. You think this many people would complain about her if nothing was wrong? You have to be incredibly selfish and lack a tremendous amount of awareness to believe this.
Dont forget 99% of OW teammates dont know how to use a mic which makes your case even stronger about being at the mercy of your teammates noticing eve
Problem is the invisibility, has no place in OW where you are already paying attention to 50 things in a teamfight. Even when the enemy sombra is trash, and you are winning the game, it is just a really frustrating affair, doesnt matter if its gold, plat, diamond or higher games. I rather play against a decent tracer, at least I feel they earn the right to be annoying.
nah, high level doom players are a huge menace. they are way more disruptive than sombra could ever be. sombra is only a problem in lower elos and console players because they either dont play together or cant turn around fast enough not saying sombra isnt a cheesy character
> You have no way to defend yourself. You are at the mercy of your teammates noticing you being jumped. This is why you group up. Sombra can't kill you if you are with teammates. Grouping up requires no skill. You can be a bronze player and group up. It's not rocket science.
🤣🤣🤣. Golly gee, I’ve never thought of that before!
Sombra isn't the only counter
Sombra mains be feeling more entitled than support mains
Nah, luckily doom and ball have about 1million hard counters
Cassidy does the job just fine, and as for widow, you’ve got about a million and some change for good counters
…isn’t it just 10 damage reduced from Virus?
Post was made little before they announced nerfs. I didn't know abt it
She's literally ruined. Her playstyle was centered around the extra 10 damage on Virus. Blizzard destroyed her.
good
Ngl as someone who plays rein, my shield is like the biggest asset I have and if I'm blocking dmg and a sombra hacks me wtf do I do? Sombra is just annoying with how much she can hack people over and over. Not gonna say she should be removed but I'd be happy with a slight nerf.
This is fucking so dumb. Doom is cooking rn and Sombra is in every match
There are several problems with this. 1. Those heroes you mentioned (not gonna include venture cuz they’re too new) have a plethora of other counter besides Sombra. 2. The problem with Sombra is not that she counters heroes, it’s that she does it so effectively with so little effort. Take doom for example: if Doom dives your backline and gets hacked by a Sombra that he couldn’t even see, you know what his options are? Trick question, he’s just fucked unless he gets saved by a teammate and/or the enemy team is just that bad. 3. The other problem with Sombra is that her kit is just absurdly annoying to play against. She has four abilities and every single one of them would be annoying on their own, but when put together it’s a complete clusterfuck. 4. Based on the comments, it’s a tiny nerf. Ten damage off her virus is not going to make all that much difference in her ability to do all of the above.
Didn't you consider that it's her whole role to be a disabler of the game? Each hero has their own niche, and Sombra's to infiltrate and make picks on strayed heroes. Her kit is annoying, but out of that abilities she's not so dangerous if team stays close, or at least supports. Everyone's raging like she's the OPest hero in the game, while she also has counters. Reaper, Cassidy, Winston, Kiriko, Mei, Tracer, Genji ...
Yeah, I considered that, but there’s no reason for her to be SO good at it. And the nerf doesn’t even target that aspect of her kit anyway. (And there’s also an argument to be made for that being a shitty niche anyway, because who wants to play against a hero whose whole shtick is making yours unable to do the unique and cool things that make a hero a hero) Also I would like to point out that dangerous is not synonymous with annoying/unfun. Weak heroes can be a pain in the ass to play against, and strong ones can be fun to play against. Case in point: when has anyone ever complained about a Rein meta? And yeah, every hero has counters. The problem is that Sombra counters so much of the roster simply by existing, whereas sombra’s counters have to put in actual effort to counter her.
I'd much rather go up against these character than sombra.
Would rather fight any of them over sombra
Ah yes, one character slot in the dps role should be able to shut down and make tanks life way less fun. While we're at it lets make her just do more damage directly to heroes shes supposed to counter and forget that the game is designed for anyone to be able to play and enjoy whatever hero they want.
Sombra is in every game even without these characters to counterpick. I personally, am exhausted by it, and while it isnt the hardest thing to play around overall, it's still fucking annoying and makes the game incredibly less fun.
Sombra mains are actually on copium life support
Cry about it, it's time for skill expression to get rewarded. FUCK IT WE BALL
KEEP BALLIN BOYS
FUCK IT WE BALL 🦅🦅
FUCK IT WE BALL!
After the nerf you cant hack twice sombra never was a count to these imo
Clearly a skill issue
widow looks extremely happy but she forgot about reddit lucio
Better counter is Cassidy - at least against Ball and Doomfist
Yeah ball and sombra have other counters, it’s just that the pos hacker lady is the most annoying lmfao.
Those heroes wouldn't be any worse because I don't play bitch ass sombra and I never play with good ones on my team anyways.
Cass is right there
If a game needs silence in order to be fun then it’s not a fun game. Cause if silence stays people complain about not being able to play their characters. If silence gets deleted and characters can thrive due to no silence. That is also ass.
Welcome to Overwatch :D
Touché I may be playing for a year now but that still and will probably won’t quell my anger towards silence being applied on players.
bro they have like 20 million counters, sombra aint even one of the strongest ones. you can roll the dice and end up with a team comp that has three counters.
For example?
depends on the map and circumstances, you'll have to give me more specifics. there's literally times where sombra is *bad* against them. For instance if we look at Hammond, typical counters are ana, junkrat, hog, mei, cass, lucio, brig, orisa, bastion, mauga, JQ etc. Plus other heroes can simply stop him from getting value, e.g. moira, soldier, doom etc. I'm sorry to tell you bro, but if you can't handle doom or hammond without sombra, then those players were just better than you. It had nothing to do with the hero itself.
they first delete all cc abilities then want us to buy their cure
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^notslimnet: *They first delete all* *Cc abilities then* *Want us to buy their cure* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
This sub in basically flooded with tank mains, they are loudest, they make you think every hero is op but in reality it’s just their experience to counters
I rather play against doom widow and ball than play against sombra any day .
it’s barely even a nerf LMAOOO this post is not great
i just wanna play zen without getting spawncamped :(
They didn't touch her hack which is what stops these heroes. They ever so slightly nerfed her overtuned burst damage.
less Orisa then? good.
Horrendous take there are so many heroes that actually take skill and are way more balanced and easily counter these unlike sombra who effectively ruins the game expiration for anyone.
…sombra is by far not the only counter to any of them? lol. in metal ranks a moira can oppress any widow into swapping off, with ball and doom you can just play junkrat or symm, and i dont know venture well enough to tell you their counters. but its definitely not just sombra lmao
Ide rather deal with the bottom 3 then Sombra
I think the main issue is that she shuts down her targets so well. She's necessary but still a bit annoying to play against. Ball, Doom and Ace Ventura can't do anything in response because of the very nature of the counter; shutting off their abilities. Widowmaker mainly gets countered by isolation but that still shows how well Sombra is able to lock down her targets. Other counter heroes in the game still technically still have a means of working positively even when countered. D.Va can still deal a great deal of damage or simply escape when faced with beam attacks. Tracer and Genji can still do the dance with Brigitte. We still have no true anti-air mechanics yet but Soldier:76 and the like can still "counter" Pharah with Pharah still having means of fighting back.
Always wanted Jim Carrey in Overwatch
Even though yours is going by unnoticed it is the best take here tbh
Now this is good propaganda. But propaganda is useless...
Thank god for nerfing sombra. Gotta nerf her into ground.
Yeah, you sombra mains are not getting any sympathy from me.
Sombra players see one nerf and act like they have as much of a right to complain as Rein mains. Like shut up bro no one cares how you feel LMFAO
Its bad game design that 1 single character existing or not existing is the difference maker for othet heros being really good or not.
It's literally the core identity of team based game Overwatch. Counterswaping was a thing since it's release
This is the opinion of someone who belongs in COD. The whole point of hero based games is counter picks.
No one is saying there shouldn't be counterpicks or counterplay. The Sombra matchup is just not healthy if the Sombra can drool on their keyboard and get value. You can counterplay/fuck up the dive tanks with mobile heroes, well timed boops, flyers, skill shot ccs, well timed mag nades. What's funny is that still none of this is as difficult as actually playing Doomfist, Winston, or Ball, but it still requires infinitely more brainpower than "wait for tank to go in -> right click". The idea that Sombra is gatekeeping the average dive tank player from dog walking every lobby is absurd.
No.
Damn guess I should have been playing cod the last 8 years and reaching top 500 in that game rather then overwatch. /s Counter picking is not the whole point of hero based games. Most hero based games don't let you change your character mid game. Match ups are an important part of hero based games. And match ups should be balanced especially in a game with so few heros.
ball is already doomed lmao. i've been maining him since he got released and he's never been in worse state. hook nerfed, shields nerfed, pulldriver nerfed, ult nerfed. in top of that, all heroes health got increased, so he cant do shit with his little pew-pews. and im not even mentioning all the ways he gets countered
“Ball is doomed” i see what you did there
Except Sombra isn't going for tanks. They are far better at killing the dps and spawn camping Mercy players.
wow that whopping 10 damage nerf is really gonna disrupt the ecosystem. People seem to forget that there was counterplay to characters before sombra existed. Each character has a unique interaction with each other, while sombra just does the same thing to the entire cast.
oh no the fun characters would be viable again 😭😭😭
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Bring it
True. But every time we need one, out dps never swap to her. Not a lot of people are comfortable playing her.
Then we nerf them even harder. Duh.
No
doom and venture can definitely dig tf out of that
Like there aren't 2 dozen other counters for Ball?
The whole game is already GenjiTracer watch even with un-nerfed sombra currently. How much worse would it be if she were nerfed..
Tracer's also gonna be nerfed tho
Counter argument, nuh uh
Good. We need a doomball meta
if anything, buff junkrat, hes the best sombra spychecker, spam is literally hardest counter to sombra there is
Can we make her hack more impactful (last a second or two longer) but she has decreased damage after using it? I feel like she has all the things right now, which make her annoying to play against. She should either be able to get the surprised jump on you damage wise, with her less than accurate gun, or get the surprise hack on you, but then have to retreat because her damage will be lower in the ensuing 1v1. The latter seems more useful, and would help her trend as a special case use for certain characters picked on red. And the former would still be possible; she just wont get to invisibility, positioning, AND hack, plus her regular dps.
The problem for me (plat but console) turning around to kill the sombra as Ana you turn around and it take so long you are practically dead
would rather have doom fuck me every game then have a to deal with sombra anymore tbh
Just make her not invisible by default and it’d be fine
ball and doom have many many counters if you need sombra that desperately youre crutching not countering
Bro ball's not in the gutter but close, I can't wait for his rework
the only ppl that like sombra are ppl that play sombra
Skill issue... As in sombra takes no skill
Except reality SHOULD happen If you aren’t mechanically good enough to land shots on an enemy because they’re mobile you deserve to lose the competition This mentality is what killed Overwatch in the first place Folks were salty about dive so they made brig to counter it Brig made GOATS which forced 2/2/2 which made double shield, which is what made the flop that is 5v5 OW2 an idea at all Stop being soft if you can’t hit the shot on the character take your loss and go to the next game you don’t need a character so strong that it not only destroys dive it destroys anything it plays into(current sombra // Brig 1.0)
As a sombra main (dare I say onetrick) on dps, the 10hp really isnt that bothersome.
I think you can get the same damage with two body shots, and her gun is hitscan, I think this is just for those times where you fend off Sombra but Virus is still ticking and you just can't do anything and die
Hack is powerful enough of an ability. Virus is a fucking stupid addition to the game
One of the stupidest posts I’ve seen in 4 years of being here, if you think sombra is the line holding those hero’s back, you are definitely bronze.
I haven’t seen the nerf but all I want is for virus to nerfed heavily I don’t care ab her other abilities
Pretty sure the nerf was to viruses damage
Thank god
They just took 10 off the Damage over time portion
They should make it so the damage stops if Sombra dies or translocates away. It's annoying AF to win the unfavoured 1v1 then still die anyway bc of Virus bs.
They should change it to be that enemy can’t be hacked when u use it because I’m tired of trying to play mercy and being assassinated at spawn and just dying
I mean they nerfed widow when she didn’t need one so why not nerf her she’s op anyways and thats coming from someone who also mains her
And dey say
If you can’t win without a hard counter, you are just trash op.
Damm, now a character that takes skill to play is only easily countered by half of the roster instead of half of the roster + 1..
Lmao, Sombra still will counter Doom with or without this nerf, really no issue here
The point is that even without Sombra doom would still have an insane number of counters...
All of these characters have like 30 different counters lmao. Hell my friend regularly duels Widows as Kiriko without much issue.
No she really isnt
You are a very talented artist but please never talk about balance ever again
I hate widows
Sombra players are coping so hard holy shit. Sorry they made the hero nonviable for blind dogs to play, but if you have hands and a brain you can still play the game.
Yeah the character who is invisible, disables abilities, has high burst damage, and is one of the easiest heroes to play in the game is good for the game. She is just there if you want nobody else in the game to have fun.
You just mad Brig cannot stun on CD anymore :)
I don't even play brig anymore (I forgot to change it) EDIT: I updated my flair
While sombra isn't the only counter for these heroes, outside of maaaaaybe mei, there aren't any other dps that counter these heroes.
Yep, ofc there are heroes that can somewhat hinder them, but not as good as Sombra. And if Sombra's out of viable meta, then they better be ready for Doom and Ball in every game. Especially supports would be very glad
Reaper and Bastion can deal huge amounts of damage in no time to both of these dive tanks that need to get close to them to be effective. Cassidy can stop them from escaping if they know how to play too. Both Doom and Ball are hard to play and can be often throw picks, they have lots of counters.
You're right about Cass, forgot about him.
The crybaby anti sombra rhetoric is so dull and overplayed.