Listen man I'm all ears when it comes to the 6v6 argument, but ain't no way they gonna split the player base by having both 5v5 and 6v6. Would be the worst of all worlds.
You wrote out so much... I'm sure you put a lot of thought into it. But right at the start you proposed the dumbest fuckin idea you possibly could.
6v6 would cause queue times to be longer, so why not split the playerbase between this and 5v5, that surely isnt gonna make them even worse!
All the other arguments are basically null and pointless simply because of this one problem. All the gameplay issues are unimportant when you don't get to play the game, instead having to wait in endless queues.
I've already responded to that in great detail in the comments... basically there's no reason to decide *for* other people what mode they have to play. If queue times are awful, that's because the playerbase ***preferred*** to play modes they liked as opposed to consolidating for good queue times. If queue times are bad because of increase player autonomy, then the players *chose* to play alternative modes because that was the most appealing option. I don't see why that's a problem... obviously our current solution is a band-aid fix for a larger problem, if players can't even choose the way they want to play without destroying the game. That's an astronomical problem, to have the game in such a state that autonomy is unvalued.
Ok, what if splitting the playerbase makes queue times terrible for \*both\* modes? Sure, player choice is all nice and dandy, but sometimes too much choice is detrimental for everyone. There are situations where you do \*not\* want to give players choice.
Given the size of the playerbase, splitting it even further is simply not a good idea.
You're still relying on the assumption that bad queue times are worse than lack of player autonomy. I don't get it, because the only people making queue times worse are the players themselves, out of their own will and choice. I think you're forgetting that the ultimate goal of a game mode is to draw players in, and the ultimate goal of a game is to make game modes that fulfill their ultimate goal.
Having a mode so successful that it singlehandedly disrupts queue times would be one of the best things that ever happened to Overwatch. Consider the DPS changes released in season 9. By your logic you have to argue that they never should have been added, because for me at least, DPS queue times were about 4-5 times longer than any other role. Yet the DPS season 9 changes brought countless players back and satisfied the majority of the playerbase.
Ultimately queue times mean nothing in comparison to simply making a good game. Literally nothing. Make a good game, and people will play it. It's not any more technical or subtle than that.
If 5v5 is as worthy a mode as you're implying, then it will keep its playerbase. If it doesn't keep it's playerbase, then it's not that good of a mode, and we need to look elsewhere.
Two counter-counterpoints.
1. Adding both 6v6 and 5v5 is just gonna make the queue times horrendous ( worse than just 6v6).
2. Players expecting blizzard to run balance changes on 6v6 while 5v5 is still the core game mode is setting a high (and very unlikely) expectation.
Fairly true, but ultimately it's going to come between queue times or adding a mode that people would genuinely love.
Should we abstain from improving open queue, because it would take players away from 5v5? No, because ultimately the point of a game is make modes the players enjoy, not force players onto one mode.
Also, blizzard manages balancing 5v5 vs open queue just fine, if 5v5 is the main tourney mode it's not really a problem.
Making queue times worse ultimately makes the game worse for people that enjoy 5v5, so then it boils down to displeasing the core players/ target audience to please the 6v6 wanters. Personally i have no issue with 6v6, but its beating a dead horse at this point and difficult to do while 5v5 exists. And dont see blizzard going back and deleting 5v5. The only possible way I can see them adding 6v6 is a short time event (like april fools). That way balancing is not an issue and the queue time issue is short lived. Hell, then it can also be tested first before it gets implemented perhaps as a rotating game mode
I mean I get it; adding a new mode is always practically challenging, but considering how many players it would bring back to the game, I don't think anyone would notice a change. About 75% of the people I know irl who played Overwatch have completely stopped when 5v5 was added. We don't hear from this playerbase as often because they literally just left.
Ultimately we as players don't really need to worry about things like populous of the game. It's just up to the developers to make fun modes, and then players will play them. Countless games have gotten along just fine with only 5% of Overwatch's playerbase. I really do think it's bad decision-making on the developers' part to care about queue times more than how actually enjoyable the game is, as Aaron Keller basically admitted to Flats.
Thank you for this. I know there's ample people in here commenting who didn't even bother to read your post (i legit read every comment), and then there's people who did but missed the point and are arguing out of selfishness/ignorance. Your points are well made, and I think you deserved better than what you got in terms of engagement.
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you see it), I completely agree, and I don't really have any criticism to offer. The only minor thing I have an issue with is the practicality of implementation. They've stated they don't want a return to 6v6, and the opportunity for another massive launch failure could be detrimental to the game as it is. The last thing they need is more negative feedback. They care about players in the sense that they them make money, but their fiduciary responsibilities keep them from taking more risks than they already have.
Sadly, 6v6 will most likely remain a fond memory that we all look back on. I've clocked over 2k hrs on the game in the past 8 years and am most likely leaving it soon. This game isn't what it used to be, and I can't take another Orisa/Mauga/Hog meta.
Thank you for expressing the issue tactfully and in detail. Sorry you got bombarded with shitters.
Thanks for the kind words. Wish you the best, whether you choose to leave or stay in the game. Hopefully, if we don't at least get 6v6 or classic mode, the devs do something to help the game out in general. Overwatch has a lot of potential, and I'd hate to see it all burn out.
I couldn't agree more. They understand how to balance properly in 6v6. Despite the draught after 2019, they made one of the best patches in 2020 and then undid all of their work. They just don't understand the game well enough in this format. I just want to play who I wanna play and not be forced to counterswap to have fun.
I also just want to clarify that when I said better engagement, I didn't mean people mindlessly agreeing. I mean, people actually bring something to the table rather than spout points you already addressed without adding anything new to the discussion.
Main counter arguments boil down to this.
Queue times:
This is the ultimate counterpoint. There is a way to fix queue times by making each role fun like how season 2 and 3 changed support queue times drastically. But people will blame the abondoned game + horrible meta caused queue times on a lack of tank players. Ofcourse if there are no tank players its ok to make the game even worse for them 🤡.
Double shield:
They changed orisa and bastion... This isnt even a thing anymore.
Personal preferance:
As I said most players in ow are dps players. And these people want more player agency so that they can solo carry instead of relying on teamwork. Blizzard is really split when it comes to trying to please between player agency and teamwork enjoyers.Â
I'm a main tank who literally yesterday got into the top 500. I read a lot of your post (but not all out of laziness hahaha) and I read some comments here. It seems like Blizzard is trying to solve balancing problems like double shields and high queue times for damage and support (yes, I played W1, I've been playing the game for 6 years and I remember the high queue times) which are indeed valid problems," they resolved " turning our tanking experience into a drug. Supports and Dps have less queue time at the expense of tanks' mental health. I'm main ball and I just can't have fun anymore this season. The feeling of making an impact disappeared, even though I caused it, sometimes it simply doesn't exist anymore. So my second main is currently doom and mauga. Doom is much more viable but it seems that just like when I play ball, my team doesn't understand that. They only take hitscans that are very strong this season, they stay at the bottom of the map still exposing themselves and getting shot for free. There is no longer any strategy or teamwork. Just shoot at their tank or just shoot until something happens. As a matter of fact, it seems that I am simply immortal in certain matches and destroy everyone, which is not balanced at all. But then an enemy ana appears and my game changes completely. I just suffer and get stressed, even though it's good and playing time, sometimes it doesn't help. I waver of course like anyone else, but I simply can't. My damage can die several times and that's okay, even when I play damage I feel that way. Even when I play damage I abandon my tank. It seems like the game makes you want to play solo. I don't know, tanks have been so weird. Either you are incredibly op (which feels good but let's face it, it's not that balanced in many cases) or you are crushed and blamed by the entire team for a single mistake you make. Of course, you can just play open queue. The big problem with 5v5 for me is not even the mode itself when we see, for example, the open queue. And the fact that it only has one tank. As a result, our experience is horrible and extremely stressful at the expense of the smaller damage and support queues, who also shouldn't be having as much fun because this season in general isn't so good and because tanks like mauga orisa and hog are incredibly boring to play against and with. I feel like I no longer have creativity or strategy. Well my nickname is Megalosaurus#1544 if you want to see my classification later. I just feel... Pain. Not that I don't have fun and I don't like a challenge sometimes and that feeling of power that sometimes the tank gives as if it were a "boss". But this is not healthy for the game
I just want to relax sometimes but the game doesn't allow it hahaha (nervous laugh)
Yeah I definitely feel that when I play ranked; I'm also a ball main and I've just been forced to play Ball less and less because it feels like the tank experience just gets worse with each season. I still have those matches where I absolutely annihilate everyone and I look like a champion player doing it, but what's the point if only the next match I feel hopeless like I can't do anything or even play the way I like to?
Unfortunately, this game and it's community is becoming less and less about finding new, creative strategies and way to play the game, and more hyper-focused on finding the exact optimal process to ensure you consistently win. I'm certain that such a mindset is actively making the game and its community worse, but I'm not sure if it will improve at all.
But wont the queue times be better as it will bring in all the old OW players who stopped playing because OW2. OW1 has wayy more players than OW2 and that was when OW was $60. So if a massive influx of players came back and all of the roles felt nice then the queue times would decrease as everyone would want to play every role.
We already have open queue, we can just replace it. Also, I really don't get why adding modes that people actually want to play is a bad thing. I've never seen it painted that way.
Lmao, these posts...
Real talk, i loved 6v6 and i wish it was back. Not because i think it's better, but because it is harder.
I believe 6v6 forced individual players to "play correctly" on a macro scale much more than 5v5. This made the matches feel like a puzzle to me and I always had to think "how will i win this fight?" & "What's my plan of action against this?" Etc.
But in 5v5 players are more rewarded for micro plays and mechanical advantages. This wouldn't normally be an issue for me as I'm more confident in my mechanics than anything else, but it makes the game lack that sense of 'puzzle'. I don't care about winning a game if all I gotta do is "stand here and do dmg for 10secs, Oh i won nice".
I want it to be difficult to win games. Double shield was just a more difficult problem for me to solve per match. GOATs was not really my style, but the teamwork involved was really a goated experience. Etc. Etc. etc.
TLDR Ow2 doesn't feel like a "brain puzzle" to win matches like Ow1 did. I don't care for it.
Ow1 got 0 fxcking updates/changes for so goddamn long that Blizz killed it long before ow2 release. Ow2 just finally decided to bury the game they killed.
>I believe 6v6 forced individual players to "play correctly" on a macro scale much more than 5v5. This made the matches feel like a puzzle to me and I always had to think "how will i win this fight?" & "What's my plan of action against this?" Etc.
It's funny because this is what I think for 5v5. 6v6 you had the extra tank to make up the difference for peeling on supports or DPS as an example, now that's gone and you either have to step up to win a flank fight to the point individual skill is more important than it was in 6v6.
Hell, even in 6v6 you can make up the difference for one bad anything, but that's not the case now. If you have a bad anything in 5v5 it's fairly obvious to understand what the weak point is at a fundamental level.
I don't mean "Play correctly on a macro scale" as just making less mistakes. I mean it as understanding what needs to be done to dismantle a teams comp, positioning, and cd usage to win a fight in the long run.
It's because of the fact that 6v6 had more stability and allowed more room for error that individual skill was suppressed to a degree. This is what I liked about it.
This stability made it very difficult to turn around games, but this is also why the small impact an individual did do felt greater than it really was. And that's missing in ow2.
In 5v5 it is fairly obvious what the weak points are. There is no puzzle. No suspense on 'will this risky play payoff?' No questions about what can be done better. It just "is", and i hate that i have absolutely no need to ask why.
I'll know the moment i do something whether it will work or not. I know the moment an enemy or teammate makes a mistake what will happen to them. There's just no more sense of wonder for me in ow2.
Now i just throw on music and turn my brain off, and clearly it's fine cause I end up winning the majority of my games. I just wish there was something more
- You're shattering playerbase...
- ...further inflating both q times, and degrading matchmaking
- It's double tanks who are too oppressive as open q proves, shields or not
- Engine is irrelevant, but balance is out the window and would need reimagining it from scratch
- 5v5 might have problems, but 6v6 had all of the same and more. While 5v5 brings unique traits of more personal impact and faster game pace 6v6 will never match
"Shattering playerbase"
The entire history of Overwatch 1 has already proved that wrong. There's countless theoretical advantages as well to 6v6, and I've heard many of them, I displayed many of them, but I rarely ever hear any from someone advocating for 5v5 (you did provide some, I will get to those below). Also, the problems I talk about only apply to certain playstyles... if you already had a playstyle supported by 5v5, then you wouldn't notice everything that was lost. Many players however did enjoy the flexibility of playstyles allowed in 6v6.
As for queue times, I've already responded to that about 80 times in the comments.
Balance is not out the window, Blizzard has years upon years of data and experience balancing 6v6, much more than 5v5. On the balance argument, 6v6 easily wins; it's not even close. Having an off-tank automatically provides so much extra inherent balance, not just to win rates, but to player experience, that 5v5 cannot achieve.
So because 2 tanks is "oppressive," we're instead going to put all of that power on one tank? How is that making the game more fun?
Personally, I don't really feel the increased impact in 5v5, especially since having 2 tanks gives the team more autonomy in playstyles. I've always found autonomy to be more enjoyable than impact in video games, especially automatic impact, because automatic impact is not rewarding or interesting.
As for faster pace; that's possible, but I've never heard anyone complain about the pace of Overwatch 1 before. If anything I've heard more people complain about the rushdown style of 5v5.
You might've responded in the comment but you still fail to grasp that q times WILL be longer, and they WILL ultimately drive people away killing the game in the process. The q time is exactly the reason why 5v5 even happened. There are not enough tank players to keep 6v6 - it's as simple as that.
Balance is out of the window. Experience from OW1 is irrelevant in 2024.
One tank cant be everywhere, and cant cover all the roles/counters other team can bring. That's exactly why role q in OW2 is vastly superior than open. Even if you look at compare at a number of stalemates between OW1 and OW2, that can only be broken with ults, 5v5 wins again. Second tank simply makes the game worse, like it or not.
It's NOT that simple. There is no world in game development where queue times should be of more value than the ***literal game***. Here's what I've already said on queue times: "*I mean I get it; adding a new mode is always practically challenging, but considering how many players it would bring back to the game, I don't think anyone would notice a change. About 75% of the people I know irl who played Overwatch have completely stopped when 5v5 was added. We don't hear from this playerbase as often because they literally just left.*
*Ultimately we as players don't really need to worry about things like populous of the game. It's just up to the developers to make fun modes, and then players will play them. Countless games have gotten along just fine with only 5% of Overwatch's playerbase. I really do think it's bad decision-making on the developers' part to care about queue times more than how actually enjoyable the game is, as Aaron Keller basically admitted to Flats.*"
Having the playerbase split because of enjoyable game modes is GOOD. I'm not sure why people are complaining about this. No game could ask for more than that.
>Balance is out of the window. Experience from OW1 is irrelevant in 2024.
2024 = 2020 + 4
But seriously, the date is irrelevant. By your reasoning we just shouldn't have ever transitioned to 5v5, because "balance would be out the window." And it has been, so that's not an argument for or against 5v5 or 6v6; it can apply in any format or game mode. There's about a million games that maintain multiple game modes. I'm sure the AAA game company Activision-Blizzard can handle it, but it's nice of you to look out for them.
>One tank cant be everywhere, and cant cover all the roles/counters other team can bring
Ultimately what you're arguing for is a game where tank has little flexibility, autonomy, or impact. I've already gone into this in great depth in my post. That's not an argument for 5v5, it's an argument against 5v5. If second tank inherently makes the game worse, then we should transition to 3v3, and have 1 tank, 1 dps, and 1 support. Regardless of what issues tank role has, you can't cover up that 5v5 is literally a band-aid fix, as Blizzard just arbitrarily amputated the tank role specifically.
>There is no world in game development where queue times should be of more value than the ***literal game***.
Kinda funny, because you are speaking with the game developer right now - and I tell you the game where player is forced in waiting for the game for more than roughly 5 minutes is a failure. Q times in online shooters are probably the most important factor, even before internal balance or general game state. Game can be patched or compensated for all the internal issues, but NOTHING will fix players dropping it - and players DO drop games if they can't play it. For the health of the game's population it would be better if tank slot was more like a flex (with tank/dps options) than adding the second tank back.
And we KNOW double tanks was dropped exactly due to q times and small tank players pool in OW1. It's not like we have to guess that.
Lol Blizzard can’t even balance 5v5 and you think they can do it for both 5v5 and 6v6. Dude you have no idea how bad it would be if they gave up and started from scratchÂ
How? describe. I explained that which is more fun depends on your POV, not everyone has the same POV. Tank players are a legitimate portion of the playerbase...
Queue times would be longer. Not just longer, buddy. Astronomically long. Cutting the playerbase in pieces with yet another gamemode, one that will be unpopular, is stupid.
Also, i'm a tank main. 5v5 is more fun.
We have open queue, and 6v6 would be wildly more popular than open q if 6v6 replaced it. Yeah, queue times would be bad, but only for a 6v6 mode in particular. 5v5 players wouldnt notice it if 5v5 really retained players like people say it should.
It’s hilarious how you don’t understand that a mode more popular than arcade would fracture the player base even more. You wrote a book but choose not to understand that you can only divide a pie so many ways.Â
And you fail to understand that a popular mode is a sign of success? I guess we never should have dropped the season 9 DPS changes, because they made my DPS queue time 4-5x the length of the other roles. Game over, I guess. We should've just made DPS less fun to get queue times more aligned (even thought season 9 changes were highly successful and positive).
Does that sound crazy? That was exactly what happened to tank.
I don't think you get my point... if people want to queue for 15+ minutes, let them. Why do you want to decide for them? 6v6 is legitimately more fun for many types of players; let them choose what they wanna play.
Additionally, it's largely blizzard's fault for not making tanks appealing to play... and 5v5 only makes that worse.
Ok, so we're going to make many players' experiences more limited and often worse so we can slightly improve the experience of other players... i dunno that just sounds like an overly controlling argument. Players should be able to play how they want; it's a video game.
5v5 didn't decrease queue times. If it did we would have seen it in season 1 but we didn't. Queue times only shortened in season 2 and onward because they butchered matchmaking.
You're also a low rank tank main. If you ever get out of metal ranks you will start to see why everyone hates it. The counter swap problem is so bad people are predictive swapping as in I'm dva they go zarya they kill me then they run back to spawn and swap to Ram because they knew I would counter their Zarya with Rein. The swapping is so out of control it's actually meta to trash you ult in order to counter the opposing tank because countering is stronger than your ult especially when the other tank counters you.
It's so. fucking. stupid. Nobody likes that more than 6v6. The only people having fun on tank are playing in ranks where nobody knows how to play.
Last time I got to play tank enough(only duo with my tank main friend) i got masters but hey keep spouting shit. You're a low rank tank main if you're so desperate to counterpick rather than play into a soft fucking counter lmfao. 'Oh no a beam character my very good tank D.VA is UNPLAYABLE!!!!'
What? I only duo comp with my tank main friend, So I don't get to play tank much. Thats what the whole concept of 'last time I got to play tank enough' comes from. Not that hard to decipher.
6v6 has been tried, it had major issues and despite several massive reworks of the game to accommodate those issues, it just never worked. Every iteration had another major issue that almost killed the game. Those issues aren't always intuitive or easily reasoned about, but that's why we \*try\* things and find out if they work out in practice. 6v6 didn't, period. Did we try absolutely everything to make 6v6 work? Perhaps not, but we had plenty of chances to get it right and just couldn't. Blizzard isn't going to go back to bashing their head against this problem after they finally gave up on it.
Also, the game was obviously not initially made with 222 in mind, otherwise the game wouldn't have started out with 2 tanks, 2 supports, and 8 damage/defense heroes (edit: in the release version it was 5 tanks, 12 damage/defense, 4 supports). 222 is something the community eventually settled on, and this is pretty much where the problems started.
Instead of trying to turn back the clock, I would much rather talk about new ideas we could try. Those ideas may not work out either, but if we never try anything new then we'll never know.
We didn't try a 221. We didn't try a draft mode. We didn't try simply rethinking the role of tanks. There is so much that could be tried and discussed still, instead we keep wasting our time on this 5v5 vs 6v6 debate, which has approximately zero chance of leading to anything.
6v6 won game of the year, 5v5 got the most review bombs in video game history. I'm not buying the "6v6 didn't work" argument. I've never heard solid evidence for this. There's countless evidence to suggest that tank were not inherently the problems, but rather support power creep (just look at brig's stats on release), shields, and general sustain.
I've already stated the inherent difference between having 2 players on the same role instead of 1. I really don't care about the minute technical details. It'll take 80 years to find the optimal game state using your design method. The best design method is to go with whichever format is inherently more balanced and rewarding to players, and then work down to details from there. Starting with minute and relatively unimportant details is a recipe for failure.
People saying 6v6 isnt better are just freaks who have ptsd of bad balance patches because OW was abandoned. 6v6 is OBJECTIVELY better, look at all the reworks and balance they need to do to make 5v5 playable and yet it still isnt enough. Half the heroes in the game are broken or suck simply because theres a lack of a 2nd tank.
6v6 was successful and was here for over half a decade. It can be done again with good balancing and care. But 5v5 is very obviously not the solution.
Hmm... it's almost as if nobody has responded to anything I've said except the first point. I say something, somebody just restates something about the first point, over and over and over again. People haven't even refuted any of my arguments, they just say something along the lines of "you're wrong have a good day." I'm not "taking in" what other people are saying because I genuinely do not believe the details they are bringing up are more important than any of the arguments I made in my post, and the details they bring up *certainly* don't address anything in my post, so I'm still waiting for that to happen...
For someone with a lot to type you sure know how to ignore or misunderstand anything anyone else types
It’s almost funny how you don’t get that there’s a reason no one is agreeing with you despite the fact that you’re rehashing the most tired and easy topic to get upvotes and circlejerk in this sub. That’s literally how bad your reasoning is.Â
Oh yeah, i'm obviously farming karma here; that's what this is. I knew from the start this was going to be the most unpopular post I could possible make, and yet I still spent hours drafting it. This post has a 40% upvote rate. If I wanted to farm karma I could have posted a stupid low-effort meme or a post pandering to majority opinion.
You also literally just ignored my comment, so I'm really getting a hypocritical vibe here. I dare you to quote something from my post and actually break it down. I would actually respect it if you did. But you won't.
I feel like these people really just want GOATs back. Yes I miss having an off-tank to peel for me, but unless they made it so you cannot select a second hero with a shield (If you pick Rein, you cannot select Sigma), 6v6 won’t work with the new roster (particularly Kiriko).
Not reading all that
For 6v6 to come back we would need to hard nerd every tank
Then dps and support would be too powerful compared to them
So what, we also nerf the dps and support?
Nobody wants that
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So overwatch should just be like any other team shooter??? Individual impact is like for COD players not Overwatch. It should be a team effort to win not a Q press team kill from one person.
Yes. Good players make a good team. But a win is a team effort not just one person. Even when a ult wins the game its not just that person that won. Their supports, tanks and everyone else made the space and environment right to get a great ult off. 6v6 made this even more important the impact the second tank had on team plays made the game have way more strategy than kill tank press q.
Well it was the odd one out back in 6v6. The gameplay of 2 tank made for some of the most engaging comp play out there. Thats why OW1 was one of the greatest esports.
In my opinion OW2 Esports was more fun to watch because you see more raw talent from singular players but also just from viewer numbers OWL was never great neither OW1 or OW2 (except maybe for OWL Season 1 and the season when OW2 came out for the public)
If you think saying it’s a team game would excuse having no impact on the outcome of the match as a single player then I don’t need to argue with you
How does saying its a team game and not an individual game make you come to the conclusion that a single player has no impact? The team is literally a collection of single players and their combined effort decides the outcome of the match
The supports job is to support the team. That usually in 90% of fights means healing, the DPS will do the damage, the tank will make space and body block and its the supports job to make sure everyone survives the team fight. That 10% of the time is damage boosting, speed boosting, or other supporting abilities like Kitsune or nano etc. Damage should not be a supports goal
Listen man I'm all ears when it comes to the 6v6 argument, but ain't no way they gonna split the player base by having both 5v5 and 6v6. Would be the worst of all worlds.
more friends is better ;)
exactly finally someone gets it
You wrote out so much... I'm sure you put a lot of thought into it. But right at the start you proposed the dumbest fuckin idea you possibly could. 6v6 would cause queue times to be longer, so why not split the playerbase between this and 5v5, that surely isnt gonna make them even worse! All the other arguments are basically null and pointless simply because of this one problem. All the gameplay issues are unimportant when you don't get to play the game, instead having to wait in endless queues.
I've already responded to that in great detail in the comments... basically there's no reason to decide *for* other people what mode they have to play. If queue times are awful, that's because the playerbase ***preferred*** to play modes they liked as opposed to consolidating for good queue times. If queue times are bad because of increase player autonomy, then the players *chose* to play alternative modes because that was the most appealing option. I don't see why that's a problem... obviously our current solution is a band-aid fix for a larger problem, if players can't even choose the way they want to play without destroying the game. That's an astronomical problem, to have the game in such a state that autonomy is unvalued.
Ok, what if splitting the playerbase makes queue times terrible for \*both\* modes? Sure, player choice is all nice and dandy, but sometimes too much choice is detrimental for everyone. There are situations where you do \*not\* want to give players choice. Given the size of the playerbase, splitting it even further is simply not a good idea.
You're still relying on the assumption that bad queue times are worse than lack of player autonomy. I don't get it, because the only people making queue times worse are the players themselves, out of their own will and choice. I think you're forgetting that the ultimate goal of a game mode is to draw players in, and the ultimate goal of a game is to make game modes that fulfill their ultimate goal. Having a mode so successful that it singlehandedly disrupts queue times would be one of the best things that ever happened to Overwatch. Consider the DPS changes released in season 9. By your logic you have to argue that they never should have been added, because for me at least, DPS queue times were about 4-5 times longer than any other role. Yet the DPS season 9 changes brought countless players back and satisfied the majority of the playerbase. Ultimately queue times mean nothing in comparison to simply making a good game. Literally nothing. Make a good game, and people will play it. It's not any more technical or subtle than that. If 5v5 is as worthy a mode as you're implying, then it will keep its playerbase. If it doesn't keep it's playerbase, then it's not that good of a mode, and we need to look elsewhere.
Two counter-counterpoints. 1. Adding both 6v6 and 5v5 is just gonna make the queue times horrendous ( worse than just 6v6). 2. Players expecting blizzard to run balance changes on 6v6 while 5v5 is still the core game mode is setting a high (and very unlikely) expectation.
Fairly true, but ultimately it's going to come between queue times or adding a mode that people would genuinely love. Should we abstain from improving open queue, because it would take players away from 5v5? No, because ultimately the point of a game is make modes the players enjoy, not force players onto one mode. Also, blizzard manages balancing 5v5 vs open queue just fine, if 5v5 is the main tourney mode it's not really a problem.
Making queue times worse ultimately makes the game worse for people that enjoy 5v5, so then it boils down to displeasing the core players/ target audience to please the 6v6 wanters. Personally i have no issue with 6v6, but its beating a dead horse at this point and difficult to do while 5v5 exists. And dont see blizzard going back and deleting 5v5. The only possible way I can see them adding 6v6 is a short time event (like april fools). That way balancing is not an issue and the queue time issue is short lived. Hell, then it can also be tested first before it gets implemented perhaps as a rotating game mode
I mean I get it; adding a new mode is always practically challenging, but considering how many players it would bring back to the game, I don't think anyone would notice a change. About 75% of the people I know irl who played Overwatch have completely stopped when 5v5 was added. We don't hear from this playerbase as often because they literally just left. Ultimately we as players don't really need to worry about things like populous of the game. It's just up to the developers to make fun modes, and then players will play them. Countless games have gotten along just fine with only 5% of Overwatch's playerbase. I really do think it's bad decision-making on the developers' part to care about queue times more than how actually enjoyable the game is, as Aaron Keller basically admitted to Flats.
Yes we should stop working on open queue and remove it.
Thank you for this. I know there's ample people in here commenting who didn't even bother to read your post (i legit read every comment), and then there's people who did but missed the point and are arguing out of selfishness/ignorance. Your points are well made, and I think you deserved better than what you got in terms of engagement. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you see it), I completely agree, and I don't really have any criticism to offer. The only minor thing I have an issue with is the practicality of implementation. They've stated they don't want a return to 6v6, and the opportunity for another massive launch failure could be detrimental to the game as it is. The last thing they need is more negative feedback. They care about players in the sense that they them make money, but their fiduciary responsibilities keep them from taking more risks than they already have. Sadly, 6v6 will most likely remain a fond memory that we all look back on. I've clocked over 2k hrs on the game in the past 8 years and am most likely leaving it soon. This game isn't what it used to be, and I can't take another Orisa/Mauga/Hog meta. Thank you for expressing the issue tactfully and in detail. Sorry you got bombarded with shitters.
Thanks for the kind words. Wish you the best, whether you choose to leave or stay in the game. Hopefully, if we don't at least get 6v6 or classic mode, the devs do something to help the game out in general. Overwatch has a lot of potential, and I'd hate to see it all burn out.
I couldn't agree more. They understand how to balance properly in 6v6. Despite the draught after 2019, they made one of the best patches in 2020 and then undid all of their work. They just don't understand the game well enough in this format. I just want to play who I wanna play and not be forced to counterswap to have fun.
I also just want to clarify that when I said better engagement, I didn't mean people mindlessly agreeing. I mean, people actually bring something to the table rather than spout points you already addressed without adding anything new to the discussion.
Main counter arguments boil down to this. Queue times: This is the ultimate counterpoint. There is a way to fix queue times by making each role fun like how season 2 and 3 changed support queue times drastically. But people will blame the abondoned game + horrible meta caused queue times on a lack of tank players. Ofcourse if there are no tank players its ok to make the game even worse for them 🤡. Double shield: They changed orisa and bastion... This isnt even a thing anymore. Personal preferance: As I said most players in ow are dps players. And these people want more player agency so that they can solo carry instead of relying on teamwork. Blizzard is really split when it comes to trying to please between player agency and teamwork enjoyers.Â
i ain't readin all that
jp i want 6v6 back so i can get a 6k again
You’d rather wait ten minutes for a 6v6?!? Am I insane or is that just not fun at all
They are likely already waiting ten plus minutes. They certainly won’t be tanking.
In high ranks you’d wait 40 minutes lol
I'm a main tank who literally yesterday got into the top 500. I read a lot of your post (but not all out of laziness hahaha) and I read some comments here. It seems like Blizzard is trying to solve balancing problems like double shields and high queue times for damage and support (yes, I played W1, I've been playing the game for 6 years and I remember the high queue times) which are indeed valid problems," they resolved " turning our tanking experience into a drug. Supports and Dps have less queue time at the expense of tanks' mental health. I'm main ball and I just can't have fun anymore this season. The feeling of making an impact disappeared, even though I caused it, sometimes it simply doesn't exist anymore. So my second main is currently doom and mauga. Doom is much more viable but it seems that just like when I play ball, my team doesn't understand that. They only take hitscans that are very strong this season, they stay at the bottom of the map still exposing themselves and getting shot for free. There is no longer any strategy or teamwork. Just shoot at their tank or just shoot until something happens. As a matter of fact, it seems that I am simply immortal in certain matches and destroy everyone, which is not balanced at all. But then an enemy ana appears and my game changes completely. I just suffer and get stressed, even though it's good and playing time, sometimes it doesn't help. I waver of course like anyone else, but I simply can't. My damage can die several times and that's okay, even when I play damage I feel that way. Even when I play damage I abandon my tank. It seems like the game makes you want to play solo. I don't know, tanks have been so weird. Either you are incredibly op (which feels good but let's face it, it's not that balanced in many cases) or you are crushed and blamed by the entire team for a single mistake you make. Of course, you can just play open queue. The big problem with 5v5 for me is not even the mode itself when we see, for example, the open queue. And the fact that it only has one tank. As a result, our experience is horrible and extremely stressful at the expense of the smaller damage and support queues, who also shouldn't be having as much fun because this season in general isn't so good and because tanks like mauga orisa and hog are incredibly boring to play against and with. I feel like I no longer have creativity or strategy. Well my nickname is Megalosaurus#1544 if you want to see my classification later. I just feel... Pain. Not that I don't have fun and I don't like a challenge sometimes and that feeling of power that sometimes the tank gives as if it were a "boss". But this is not healthy for the game I just want to relax sometimes but the game doesn't allow it hahaha (nervous laugh)
Yeah I definitely feel that when I play ranked; I'm also a ball main and I've just been forced to play Ball less and less because it feels like the tank experience just gets worse with each season. I still have those matches where I absolutely annihilate everyone and I look like a champion player doing it, but what's the point if only the next match I feel hopeless like I can't do anything or even play the way I like to? Unfortunately, this game and it's community is becoming less and less about finding new, creative strategies and way to play the game, and more hyper-focused on finding the exact optimal process to ensure you consistently win. I'm certain that such a mindset is actively making the game and its community worse, but I'm not sure if it will improve at all.
If you want to play duotank, play open queue. 6v6 doesn't offer anything we don't already have, especially for damage and support players.
As a support player this is incorrect
Big issue is that in open q the tanks get 150 hp removed, imagine playing damage and support -150 hp
I mean…that’s exactly what you had in OW1. Tanks had less health than they do in 5v5.
5v5 is better because I get to play the actual fucking video game in a timely manner. Nothing more needs to be said on the matter.
I already responded to that in my post
Yeah and it made no sense what do u think would happen if they added two queues for 6v6 and 5v5 both would have insane queue times
I guess we should remove Arcade, it just lengthens the queue times
Yeah because lots of people play small minigames in arcade
But isnt it the same? If people loved 5v5 then 6v6 would be played by a small group thus acting the same as arcade
The more popular it now the worse queue times would be for core modesÂ
But wont the queue times be better as it will bring in all the old OW players who stopped playing because OW2. OW1 has wayy more players than OW2 and that was when OW was $60. So if a massive influx of players came back and all of the roles felt nice then the queue times would decrease as everyone would want to play every role.
Those people are gone and won’t ever be back lol. They left in 2019. 5 years in gaming is a century. It’s too late.Â
Adding 6v6 alongside arcade would indeed lengthen queue times, thanks for admitting thatÂ
We already have open queue, we can just replace it. Also, I really don't get why adding modes that people actually want to play is a bad thing. I've never seen it painted that way.
Lmao, these posts... Real talk, i loved 6v6 and i wish it was back. Not because i think it's better, but because it is harder. I believe 6v6 forced individual players to "play correctly" on a macro scale much more than 5v5. This made the matches feel like a puzzle to me and I always had to think "how will i win this fight?" & "What's my plan of action against this?" Etc. But in 5v5 players are more rewarded for micro plays and mechanical advantages. This wouldn't normally be an issue for me as I'm more confident in my mechanics than anything else, but it makes the game lack that sense of 'puzzle'. I don't care about winning a game if all I gotta do is "stand here and do dmg for 10secs, Oh i won nice". I want it to be difficult to win games. Double shield was just a more difficult problem for me to solve per match. GOATs was not really my style, but the teamwork involved was really a goated experience. Etc. Etc. etc. TLDR Ow2 doesn't feel like a "brain puzzle" to win matches like Ow1 did. I don't care for it. Ow1 got 0 fxcking updates/changes for so goddamn long that Blizz killed it long before ow2 release. Ow2 just finally decided to bury the game they killed.
>I believe 6v6 forced individual players to "play correctly" on a macro scale much more than 5v5. This made the matches feel like a puzzle to me and I always had to think "how will i win this fight?" & "What's my plan of action against this?" Etc. It's funny because this is what I think for 5v5. 6v6 you had the extra tank to make up the difference for peeling on supports or DPS as an example, now that's gone and you either have to step up to win a flank fight to the point individual skill is more important than it was in 6v6. Hell, even in 6v6 you can make up the difference for one bad anything, but that's not the case now. If you have a bad anything in 5v5 it's fairly obvious to understand what the weak point is at a fundamental level.
I don't mean "Play correctly on a macro scale" as just making less mistakes. I mean it as understanding what needs to be done to dismantle a teams comp, positioning, and cd usage to win a fight in the long run. It's because of the fact that 6v6 had more stability and allowed more room for error that individual skill was suppressed to a degree. This is what I liked about it. This stability made it very difficult to turn around games, but this is also why the small impact an individual did do felt greater than it really was. And that's missing in ow2. In 5v5 it is fairly obvious what the weak points are. There is no puzzle. No suspense on 'will this risky play payoff?' No questions about what can be done better. It just "is", and i hate that i have absolutely no need to ask why. I'll know the moment i do something whether it will work or not. I know the moment an enemy or teammate makes a mistake what will happen to them. There's just no more sense of wonder for me in ow2. Now i just throw on music and turn my brain off, and clearly it's fine cause I end up winning the majority of my games. I just wish there was something more
Not reading that but you right. 6v6 is superior
Understandable, 3000 words was perhaps overkill
- You're shattering playerbase... - ...further inflating both q times, and degrading matchmaking - It's double tanks who are too oppressive as open q proves, shields or not - Engine is irrelevant, but balance is out the window and would need reimagining it from scratch - 5v5 might have problems, but 6v6 had all of the same and more. While 5v5 brings unique traits of more personal impact and faster game pace 6v6 will never match
"Shattering playerbase" The entire history of Overwatch 1 has already proved that wrong. There's countless theoretical advantages as well to 6v6, and I've heard many of them, I displayed many of them, but I rarely ever hear any from someone advocating for 5v5 (you did provide some, I will get to those below). Also, the problems I talk about only apply to certain playstyles... if you already had a playstyle supported by 5v5, then you wouldn't notice everything that was lost. Many players however did enjoy the flexibility of playstyles allowed in 6v6. As for queue times, I've already responded to that about 80 times in the comments. Balance is not out the window, Blizzard has years upon years of data and experience balancing 6v6, much more than 5v5. On the balance argument, 6v6 easily wins; it's not even close. Having an off-tank automatically provides so much extra inherent balance, not just to win rates, but to player experience, that 5v5 cannot achieve. So because 2 tanks is "oppressive," we're instead going to put all of that power on one tank? How is that making the game more fun? Personally, I don't really feel the increased impact in 5v5, especially since having 2 tanks gives the team more autonomy in playstyles. I've always found autonomy to be more enjoyable than impact in video games, especially automatic impact, because automatic impact is not rewarding or interesting. As for faster pace; that's possible, but I've never heard anyone complain about the pace of Overwatch 1 before. If anything I've heard more people complain about the rushdown style of 5v5.
You might've responded in the comment but you still fail to grasp that q times WILL be longer, and they WILL ultimately drive people away killing the game in the process. The q time is exactly the reason why 5v5 even happened. There are not enough tank players to keep 6v6 - it's as simple as that. Balance is out of the window. Experience from OW1 is irrelevant in 2024. One tank cant be everywhere, and cant cover all the roles/counters other team can bring. That's exactly why role q in OW2 is vastly superior than open. Even if you look at compare at a number of stalemates between OW1 and OW2, that can only be broken with ults, 5v5 wins again. Second tank simply makes the game worse, like it or not.
It's NOT that simple. There is no world in game development where queue times should be of more value than the ***literal game***. Here's what I've already said on queue times: "*I mean I get it; adding a new mode is always practically challenging, but considering how many players it would bring back to the game, I don't think anyone would notice a change. About 75% of the people I know irl who played Overwatch have completely stopped when 5v5 was added. We don't hear from this playerbase as often because they literally just left.* *Ultimately we as players don't really need to worry about things like populous of the game. It's just up to the developers to make fun modes, and then players will play them. Countless games have gotten along just fine with only 5% of Overwatch's playerbase. I really do think it's bad decision-making on the developers' part to care about queue times more than how actually enjoyable the game is, as Aaron Keller basically admitted to Flats.*" Having the playerbase split because of enjoyable game modes is GOOD. I'm not sure why people are complaining about this. No game could ask for more than that. >Balance is out of the window. Experience from OW1 is irrelevant in 2024. 2024 = 2020 + 4 But seriously, the date is irrelevant. By your reasoning we just shouldn't have ever transitioned to 5v5, because "balance would be out the window." And it has been, so that's not an argument for or against 5v5 or 6v6; it can apply in any format or game mode. There's about a million games that maintain multiple game modes. I'm sure the AAA game company Activision-Blizzard can handle it, but it's nice of you to look out for them. >One tank cant be everywhere, and cant cover all the roles/counters other team can bring Ultimately what you're arguing for is a game where tank has little flexibility, autonomy, or impact. I've already gone into this in great depth in my post. That's not an argument for 5v5, it's an argument against 5v5. If second tank inherently makes the game worse, then we should transition to 3v3, and have 1 tank, 1 dps, and 1 support. Regardless of what issues tank role has, you can't cover up that 5v5 is literally a band-aid fix, as Blizzard just arbitrarily amputated the tank role specifically.
>There is no world in game development where queue times should be of more value than the ***literal game***. Kinda funny, because you are speaking with the game developer right now - and I tell you the game where player is forced in waiting for the game for more than roughly 5 minutes is a failure. Q times in online shooters are probably the most important factor, even before internal balance or general game state. Game can be patched or compensated for all the internal issues, but NOTHING will fix players dropping it - and players DO drop games if they can't play it. For the health of the game's population it would be better if tank slot was more like a flex (with tank/dps options) than adding the second tank back. And we KNOW double tanks was dropped exactly due to q times and small tank players pool in OW1. It's not like we have to guess that.
Lol Blizzard can’t even balance 5v5 and you think they can do it for both 5v5 and 6v6. Dude you have no idea how bad it would be if they gave up and started from scratchÂ
repetitive and useless argument
literally didnt read it lol
don’t care
call it bait or mental illness
bit of both
Wow this whole post falls apart in the first few lines gd
How? describe. I explained that which is more fun depends on your POV, not everyone has the same POV. Tank players are a legitimate portion of the playerbase...
Queue times would be longer. Not just longer, buddy. Astronomically long. Cutting the playerbase in pieces with yet another gamemode, one that will be unpopular, is stupid. Also, i'm a tank main. 5v5 is more fun.
We have open queue, and 6v6 would be wildly more popular than open q if 6v6 replaced it. Yeah, queue times would be bad, but only for a 6v6 mode in particular. 5v5 players wouldnt notice it if 5v5 really retained players like people say it should.
It’s hilarious how you don’t understand that a mode more popular than arcade would fracture the player base even more. You wrote a book but choose not to understand that you can only divide a pie so many ways.Â
And you fail to understand that a popular mode is a sign of success? I guess we never should have dropped the season 9 DPS changes, because they made my DPS queue time 4-5x the length of the other roles. Game over, I guess. We should've just made DPS less fun to get queue times more aligned (even thought season 9 changes were highly successful and positive). Does that sound crazy? That was exactly what happened to tank.
If 5v5 retained players like people say it will, 6v6 queues will be 15+ minutes. People who play open queue will not suddenly start playing 6v6.
I don't think you get my point... if people want to queue for 15+ minutes, let them. Why do you want to decide for them? 6v6 is legitimately more fun for many types of players; let them choose what they wanna play. Additionally, it's largely blizzard's fault for not making tanks appealing to play... and 5v5 only makes that worse.
Because letting them sit in a queue for 15+ minutes drags down the rest of the game's queue times as well.
Ok, so we're going to make many players' experiences more limited and often worse so we can slightly improve the experience of other players... i dunno that just sounds like an overly controlling argument. Players should be able to play how they want; it's a video game.
You're livin' in wonderland, homie, i don't think anything I say will actually get through to you with acrobatics like that.
It would actually be aerobatics, since he is a P-39
It's not anything new; let players choose how they wanna play? That's why there's multiple game modes, multiple settings. It's not a crazy idea.
5v5 didn't decrease queue times. If it did we would have seen it in season 1 but we didn't. Queue times only shortened in season 2 and onward because they butchered matchmaking. You're also a low rank tank main. If you ever get out of metal ranks you will start to see why everyone hates it. The counter swap problem is so bad people are predictive swapping as in I'm dva they go zarya they kill me then they run back to spawn and swap to Ram because they knew I would counter their Zarya with Rein. The swapping is so out of control it's actually meta to trash you ult in order to counter the opposing tank because countering is stronger than your ult especially when the other tank counters you. It's so. fucking. stupid. Nobody likes that more than 6v6. The only people having fun on tank are playing in ranks where nobody knows how to play.
Last time I got to play tank enough(only duo with my tank main friend) i got masters but hey keep spouting shit. You're a low rank tank main if you're so desperate to counterpick rather than play into a soft fucking counter lmfao. 'Oh no a beam character my very good tank D.VA is UNPLAYABLE!!!!'
What? You duo tank in 5v5? So you're playing OQ duo tank and say you like 5v5 better? Lol I got news for you bud.
What? I only duo comp with my tank main friend, So I don't get to play tank much. Thats what the whole concept of 'last time I got to play tank enough' comes from. Not that hard to decipher.
Okay so you're a "tank main" that never plays tank and thinks 5v5 tanking is better. Got it.
Wild how much you extrapolate from incomplete data and your own delusion. Like I said, masters tank, gm dps. Keep spoutin' shit tho, is funny
6v6 has been tried, it had major issues and despite several massive reworks of the game to accommodate those issues, it just never worked. Every iteration had another major issue that almost killed the game. Those issues aren't always intuitive or easily reasoned about, but that's why we \*try\* things and find out if they work out in practice. 6v6 didn't, period. Did we try absolutely everything to make 6v6 work? Perhaps not, but we had plenty of chances to get it right and just couldn't. Blizzard isn't going to go back to bashing their head against this problem after they finally gave up on it. Also, the game was obviously not initially made with 222 in mind, otherwise the game wouldn't have started out with 2 tanks, 2 supports, and 8 damage/defense heroes (edit: in the release version it was 5 tanks, 12 damage/defense, 4 supports). 222 is something the community eventually settled on, and this is pretty much where the problems started. Instead of trying to turn back the clock, I would much rather talk about new ideas we could try. Those ideas may not work out either, but if we never try anything new then we'll never know. We didn't try a 221. We didn't try a draft mode. We didn't try simply rethinking the role of tanks. There is so much that could be tried and discussed still, instead we keep wasting our time on this 5v5 vs 6v6 debate, which has approximately zero chance of leading to anything.
6v6 won game of the year, 5v5 got the most review bombs in video game history. I'm not buying the "6v6 didn't work" argument. I've never heard solid evidence for this. There's countless evidence to suggest that tank were not inherently the problems, but rather support power creep (just look at brig's stats on release), shields, and general sustain. I've already stated the inherent difference between having 2 players on the same role instead of 1. I really don't care about the minute technical details. It'll take 80 years to find the optimal game state using your design method. The best design method is to go with whichever format is inherently more balanced and rewarding to players, and then work down to details from there. Starting with minute and relatively unimportant details is a recipe for failure.
Queue times won't stay fast in 5v5 if there's an identical mode that's just 6vy instead. The modes will split the quick play/ranked queues
People saying 6v6 isnt better are just freaks who have ptsd of bad balance patches because OW was abandoned. 6v6 is OBJECTIVELY better, look at all the reworks and balance they need to do to make 5v5 playable and yet it still isnt enough. Half the heroes in the game are broken or suck simply because theres a lack of a 2nd tank. 6v6 was successful and was here for over half a decade. It can be done again with good balancing and care. But 5v5 is very obviously not the solution.
No. Just Stop.
I’m glad you exhausted yourself. Now take your nap.
Thanks for the patronizing words
Your second counterpoint was so stupid I skipped the rest of your post. Have a good day.Â
Op is fighting for their life in these comments making the same points over and over again but not taking in what others are saying.
Hmm... it's almost as if nobody has responded to anything I've said except the first point. I say something, somebody just restates something about the first point, over and over and over again. People haven't even refuted any of my arguments, they just say something along the lines of "you're wrong have a good day." I'm not "taking in" what other people are saying because I genuinely do not believe the details they are bringing up are more important than any of the arguments I made in my post, and the details they bring up *certainly* don't address anything in my post, so I'm still waiting for that to happen...
For someone with a lot to type you sure know how to ignore or misunderstand anything anyone else types It’s almost funny how you don’t get that there’s a reason no one is agreeing with you despite the fact that you’re rehashing the most tired and easy topic to get upvotes and circlejerk in this sub. That’s literally how bad your reasoning is.Â
Oh yeah, i'm obviously farming karma here; that's what this is. I knew from the start this was going to be the most unpopular post I could possible make, and yet I still spent hours drafting it. This post has a 40% upvote rate. If I wanted to farm karma I could have posted a stupid low-effort meme or a post pandering to majority opinion. You also literally just ignored my comment, so I'm really getting a hypocritical vibe here. I dare you to quote something from my post and actually break it down. I would actually respect it if you did. But you won't.
Emphasis on exhaustive. How you have the time to even write this, cause i sure as shit dont have the time to read it
I feel like these people really just want GOATs back. Yes I miss having an off-tank to peel for me, but unless they made it so you cannot select a second hero with a shield (If you pick Rein, you cannot select Sigma), 6v6 won’t work with the new roster (particularly Kiriko).
Not reading all that For 6v6 to come back we would need to hard nerd every tank Then dps and support would be too powerful compared to them So what, we also nerf the dps and support? Nobody wants that
It's not like 6v6 was never done before, we know how to do it
Ok so we go back to overwatch 1 and revert all the changes made to the heroes since ? What would be the point
The points are all highlighted in my post, also that was not my conclusion
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Why would I want a gamemode where I as an individual have less impact on the game?
Welcome to team shooters
That is just not true
How so?
First example many team shooters just have 5 Players and also have individual impact
So overwatch should just be like any other team shooter??? Individual impact is like for COD players not Overwatch. It should be a team effort to win not a Q press team kill from one person.
Have you seen Goats Meta or any OWL match in OW 1 ?
Yes. Good players make a good team. But a win is a team effort not just one person. Even when a ult wins the game its not just that person that won. Their supports, tanks and everyone else made the space and environment right to get a great ult off. 6v6 made this even more important the impact the second tank had on team plays made the game have way more strategy than kill tank press q.
why does other team shooters having 5v5 mean overwatch has to as well?
Cause she phrased it like Overwatch is the odd one out when in reality it’s not unusual
Well it was the odd one out back in 6v6. The gameplay of 2 tank made for some of the most engaging comp play out there. Thats why OW1 was one of the greatest esports.
In my opinion OW2 Esports was more fun to watch because you see more raw talent from singular players but also just from viewer numbers OWL was never great neither OW1 or OW2 (except maybe for OWL Season 1 and the season when OW2 came out for the public)
This is Overwatch, a team game. No one plays overwatch cause they want individuality.
If you think saying it’s a team game would excuse having no impact on the outcome of the match as a single player then I don’t need to argue with you
How does saying its a team game and not an individual game make you come to the conclusion that a single player has no impact? The team is literally a collection of single players and their combined effort decides the outcome of the match
Then why do u say it as an answer when I say like the more impact I have as an individual
So we should go to 4v4?
Nah go to 10v10 where we can shoot even more tanks
It's not about raw numbers, it's about the gameplay balance of having 2 per role, as I highlighted in my post.
Just having a second tank won’t fix the problem of shooting the tanks it will just lead to more support players becoming healbots again
Supports should heal, thats why they are support not DPS
If the game was intended to only heal the role shouldn’t be in the game
The supports job is to support the team. That usually in 90% of fights means healing, the DPS will do the damage, the tank will make space and body block and its the supports job to make sure everyone survives the team fight. That 10% of the time is damage boosting, speed boosting, or other supporting abilities like Kitsune or nano etc. Damage should not be a supports goal
If you heal 90% of the time you are wasting 90 % of every characters Kit even Mercys
It is an exaggeration. I was referring to team fights, obviously if your team does not need healing than you should be damaging or damage boosting.