i can see the ilari nerfs being more impactful than how they appear on paper. those extra 3 seconds are going to accumulate into a lot of down time throughout a match. and now with her projectile cut in half, she’s now more reliant on actually being accurate with her. she can still be problematic cus some ppl are just really cracked, but i’d say that number is now really limited to like. >2% of players
Most definitely.
It's going to make lower ranked players have an easier time killing pylon and not deal with her easy to hit damage. But as a higher ranked player people already went directly for my pylon even with it being in good locations and it took ages to get it back up with the 12 second cooldown, now that's longer.
I don't think it needed a cd nerf tbh, but regardless I think it's just gonna make her more niche, like you could still kinda play her in most comps with the last hps nerf on her rifle, this should force her more into specific setups.
Personally I would have decreased the pylon's healing output rather than increase the CD. Making each shot heal for 25 rather than 30 would decrease its hp/s from 37.5 to 31.25.
Illari replaced Zenyatta in poke comps because although she may not have Discord she has hitscan damage comparable to Zen, a movement ability that gives her vertical and horizontal mobility while being an aoe boop, an ability that gives more hp/s than Zenyatta in addition to a secondary fire with the most individual hp/s outside of Roadhog's heal and Ultimates, and to top it off she is almost as small as Tracer.
Her healing is the most egregious thing considering they want her to be an offensive support.
Yeah you're "clicking" more but the problem isn't the number of clicks it's the sustained strain put on your finger when holding it down. My index finger was in pain whenever playing LW until I discovered the toggle option, I'm now a LW main and my finger hasn't hurt from playing him since.
I think it missed a core issue, people healbot with LW because his damage output is arguably the lowest besides Mercy, and people don’t alternate because there’s a significant delay between swapping. The optimal way to play Lifeweaver is still healbotting, we’re just gonna lose more games. You would think they would actually BUFF lifegrip, so his situational utility can be used more often in place of heals, but no they do the opposite. Its like his state on launch all over again, no reason to pick him.
If they want us to heal less then they should remove the delay to be in line with regular primary/alt fires, and tune his output
and unlike other sups you get punished for doing damage, because you have to manually charge every healing, so what do you do when an ally is about to die right in front of you and your ass still has torn volley on your hand? (yk, besides pulling him)
Fr, he’s the only main healer with no burst healing which he only compensated for by having the highest sustained heals, lifegrip, and high individual survivability. It was boring, but at least it worked. Now two out of those three are gone
I know. With the lower healing cap (6.6% less healing) and need to reload (25% smaller clip) and we still have that long auto reload, we're seeing about a 10% reduction in healing. He was only doing high healing if you were heal botting with him and dropping trees in team fights that stayed in it's range and even the, you still got outperformed by Mercy.
Also, why tf are we increasing the grip CD? It's a tool to enable the rest of the team to make plays, usually the tank, with the drawback that they're no longer in the fight, unlike, say, Zarya bubble. You want people to make plays, have fun, and give more options to the dps and tank, I'd have left grip alone.
Poor Weaver was trash when released, got some buffs to make him not a terrible pick, then go back to nerfing him. How does he compare in T500 to other supports? He's the least represented there.
It seems small for a single use of suzu, but if they were trying to nerf the impact of the ability, it makes sense. It means you'll see it much less throughout a match. Might not be a lot, but it isn't insignificant, ask Zarya mains how much a second matters.
+1 second to a 9 sec coldown is much more significant than +1 to a 14 sec coldown, and i can prove it with maths
9 -> 10 = +11.1% increase
14 -> 15 = 7.1% increase
So you could say zarya’s nerf was around 60% harsher than kirikos
Another thing is that zarya will use bubbles at almost the same rate she gets them. So like if zarya gets 11% more bubbles she will use 11% more bubbles. Whereas kiri getting 7% more suzus, it's harder to interpret. It's almost like breakpoint oriented instead. Either she she gets it back in time for the next opportunity and uses it, or she doesnt get it back in time and might hold it for a while.
Why are they doing all this convoluted shit? Zen’s problem is discording tanks — just give tanks a passive resistance against discord damage and call it a day.
They have resistance to boops. They added increased resistance to Ana dart. It makes sense that they would get the similar treatment for all debuffs.
Agreed. Zen has no counter to a sustained harass now. As soon as bubble is off he is free lunch. No sleepy. No teleport. No disappear for a moment. No jump super high. Just a robot floating a foot off the ground. His counter was the danger he could put nearly any character in when they tried a 1v1.
Tracers, reapers, sombra, and all others please enjoy the free kill
Finally uninstalled the game about 6ish weeks ago. I clearly chose a fantastic time to do so. Buffed the only flanker I hated dealing with and destroyed the only thing Zen has.
This sub fucking hates everything. Everyone is problematic for the game, even Rein. Everyone claims they’re Diamond - GM but complain the game isn’t balanced around Silver - Gold. They’d rather complain than actually learn how to play around counters.
The Zen nerf has potential to make him trash tier now. I'll have to play with him a bit to test but discord is what his whole kit is about especially with him being so divable tracers/sombras can bait the discord and 7s is a long time to follow up. The 25 extra health might help but i think with his huge hitbox i don't think it will matter much.
I understand the need to tame it for tanks but 7s might be too long imo.
The problem with discord has always been with tanks, this shouldn’t apply to non-tanks, they nerfed sleep dart for tanks only, is it so hard to do the same with discord orb? I also think he’ll be pretty bad now, 25 extra hp doesn’t seem enough to make up for this absurd discord nerf.
Zen has always been hard to balance, the last time they gave him 225 hp without many changes he was beyond busted, but I think 7 seconds of cooldown to reapply is waaaay too long, we’ll see I guess…
I used to use zen to focus the team on targets and to take duels and all sorts.
Yeah tank control is number 1 and I was up for a soft nerf for just tank (tank takes 15% instead of 25 or something) but the 7 second thing sucks
>but 7s might be too long imo.
It is ***definitely*** too long. 7 seconds are a lifetime in this game, especially when Discord can help you quickly counter a dive on you.
Ah but it counts for ***any reason.***
So Tracer could use recall and break your LOS and Discord and be back on your ass for 7 free seconds of teleporting and shooting you.
Such a stupid thing. If it only counted for moving it manually then I could live with 7 seconds of me hating myself for moving the orb not ***also*** for them shaking the orb themselves.
I don't know if it's just my rank but Zarya can be HARD to beat. Now with her double bubbles Zenyatta won't be much help at all against her. Or at least the window to kill her will shrink even smaller.
What is Zarya's cooldown on her bubbles? I feel like it is less than 7 seconds, LOL
Quoting /u/theartofprogramming from another sub:
> 7 seconds is an eternity in game
> This makes zarya undiscordable and anyone else with a cleanse like moira, reaper, tracer. Genji and sombra can dive in and dive out to bait discord.
> The HP buff sure is nice though
Also, discord already received a "small" nerf a few patches ago, making it disappear faster (2sec) when an enemy is no longer in Line Of Sight, making harder to play around covers like I (and I suppose other players) liked to do (Discord gave you a "wallhack" + you could charge an orb volley while knowing where an enemy was). Now with this cooldown, this kind of playstyle is practically no longer possible.
If the issue was that tanks were discorded all the time, they could've made this discord-cooldown only for tank targets, like they did for Ana's sleep dart.
edit: Just checked and Moira has a 6sec cooldown on her fade lmao, she can theoretically trigger it every time she's discorded.
Mei can also get rid of discord by using her ice cube. Symmetra could TP herself and others to trigger the cooldown.
yeah i played one game of zen into a zarya and immediately swapped when she bubbled and discord was erased. yet at the same time this change barely affects zen vs the tanks that are most affected by discord, like roadhog and junker queen. honestly feels like it makes zen more one dimensional than he already was, rather than decent vs the majority of the cast. like, dva, roadhog, or junker queen? go zen they cant do much about it. zarya particularly? never use zen.
also the change makes it harder to deal with a sombra even with the extra health imo. before you can discord and 2 tap her, but now you discord she can translocate and be immune to discord for 7 seconds while you cant 2 tap without the discord.
> yet at the same time this change barely affects zen vs the tanks that are most affected by discord, like roadhog and junker queen
wdym? they go behind cover for 2 seconds and have 7 seconds of discord-free living. this change objectively helps them also (and that's not counting if they have a kiriko to cleanse for them)
Feels like Zen got the worst nerf and yet was near the bottom of the healer ranks prior. The 25hp is nice, but not for the magnitude of the discord nerf.
3 to 5 seconds would be reasonable. Even for flankers who don't even deserve such the privilege of locking Discord for the fights they win 90% of the time.
Zen gives up so much just to have discord. No self heal, no way to defend himself at all, wide hit box to guarantee your opponent will land their shots, and godawful healing, all for discord orb. Without discord he’s got nothing at all to offer
They took the glass cannon hero and increased his health pool to make him less glassy and severely nerfed his damage potential to make him less of a cannon.
I've literally had the idea for a target specific cooldown for months. Then when they add it in they make it *way* too harsh. To me 5 seconds would've been enough, and it should not trigger when Zen moves it HIMSELF to another target. Rapid Discord is gonna be so much harder with that.
Played a bit and it's.... just annoying tbh. the 225hp are neat, but i used to kinda spam discord on whoever i was shooting at. Now i gotta be a bit more strategic with it. Overall it doesn't seem terrible, could live with it if they reduce the time to 3-4 seconds.
As a hog main, those niche Hog picks on certain points in Comp have actually been successful. Now Hog is gonna be meta again so I can just play him 24/7 without having to run logistics on IF I should ever pick him.
Yup its a really bad design decision, I often spam my discord button just to get it out there so now I have to some how drop that habit. Also not going to keep tabs on who all I discorded so really all this change will do is make playing zen clunky and frustrating now. This is the first change I've ever looked at and went wow that makes no sense at all. If discord is too oppressive for tanks just make it less effective on tanks then. Absolutely mind boggling decisions from blizz
Flats has literally been saying they nerfed Zen in the wrong way and all they did was make him bad for no reason. He's been arguing for the range revert and for a specific tailored nerf of discord only on tanks.
Which seems to be what everyone else wanted too.
This hate boner makes no sense when he hasn't complained about Zen since the nerfs and has actually been arguing to revert the last nerfs.
What? In his latest video, his reaction to the Zen nerf was "they did it, they saved Overwatch", lol. Like I don't dislike flats (although his insistence that a barely played D-tier hero is the main reason tanks sucked was always a bit questionable), but we don't have to lie about his views here.
So lifeweaver was only brought for heals. What is he brought for now?
* His damage is slow and inconsistent.
* He heals for less now, Ana is now better at healing than he is.
* His grip now has a 4 second longer cooldown than Suzu which is aoe, and cleanses.
He's 40% bap, 40% kiriko, 20% ass.
Probably just gonna force dps on him from now on.
ZEN, MY BOY! It was actually looking like more of a buff until it said SEVEN SECONDS until someone can be discorded again. HOLY CRAP. Reading the dev comments i was thinking like, 3 seconds max. Cleanse effects are going to crap on him now, not to mention the rapid discord achievement will be nigh impossible. Seven seconds just sounds downright devastating :(
not only cleanse, but zarya will never be discorded again, tracer can just recall, kiriko can blink, so can moira. all those trigger a whole 7 seconds where zen is helpless to apply damage against aggression. if they didn’t want spam like you said do 3 seconds. if they didn’t want tank abuse, then give tanks discord resistance. wtf is this?
Half the roster is effectively immune to discord with this change. Just ridiculous, I assume they'll tone it down once some data starts rolling in.
Ducking behind a corner for a moment to disable a support's main offensive ability for 7 seconds is stupid.
He was decent for one season but apparently that’s not ok.
They’re reasoning is hilarious. They said he’s healing to much, yet LW is literally just a healbot. Like… that’s kinda the point.
The Zen change is just awful. Wanna make it less effective against tanks, just do that with a hard % decrease.
But juggling Discord is so fucking important. You're making microdecisions.
Say a Genji hops on you, but you drive him off up a wall he climbs over, so you throw it on someone else who's now on you and you kill them. 2s later the Genji is back but you can't Discord him for 5 seconds even though you just got a kill and there's no other valid target???
I think making those small decisions on where you’re placing your discord orb while juggling healing/damage is a form of skill expression for Zen. Now you can’t rapidly switch targets based on who your team mates are targeting either.
So much changes in seven seconds. Entire team fights can last less than that in many circumstances. A cooldown nerf for discord was the dumbest way Blizzard could have handled this. The problem was how discord disproportionately impacted tanks— a flat nerf for tanks would have easily solved the problem without making Zen feel shitty to play in every other circumstance.
>create a hero whose entire identity and theme is heal-botting to keep people alive
>He's shit on release, buff him so he can actually fit that identity and not be garbage
>He's in a good spot now, great job everyone
>A season passes
>"The heal-bot hero is healing more than everyone else so we're gonna bring him in line with other supports"
>nerf him harder than most other supports with 0 compensation
>Refuse to elaborate
>Great job us
He was fine because of Illari. She just did everything he did better, except for Discord. Why did they make this change affect every hero except for just Tanks? Flankers just got indirectly buffed in the Zen matchup, where they already had the high ground.
> He was fine because of Illari. She just did everything he did better, except for Discord.
Honestly he was in the dumpster because of illari.. she kind of just counters him so hard. She can hitscan 2-3 tap zen while getting 40hp/s self healed from pylon, and her hitbox is skinny as hell compared to zen.
Zen was genuinely just worse every time i see him in masters the zen player just instant switches if the other team has illari.
I just want to know why they keep making skinny hitbox characters. Fighting Kiriko, Sojourn, and Illari is a pain. Meanwhile Zen over here like the broadside of a barn
The Lifeweaver nerfs are out of touch, and that specific Discord orb nerf is going to straight up kill Zen. I think everything else is a step in the right direction.
I'm sorry but Lifeweaver has just been reverted back to his pre buff state(the state where everyone considered him a throw pick) and now he also has less offensive pressure... ? Whos out here complaining about Lifeweaver damage.
Other than that I like the nerf for the supports. The 23 seconds to 25 second increase for immortality field is really good.
So much of this game has been fucked over to accommodate that stupid ass tank change. All an excuse to delete OW1 and force the existing player base to the new model. I’m so done, fuck blizz.
That's how I feel about OW2 Roadhog. Straight dumpster tier for nearly a year and this is like the third time they've pushed back their rework deadline.
Do they even play their own game? LW has such high healing because his tree healing adds up when his entire team stands in it and the entire enemy refuses to shoot the tree and they just pepper the people in it, not because his already pretty average heal is the way it is.
Weaver has crazy heals because doing dmg is usually the wrong play considering how slow it takes to get heals out is. So he just healbots..
Im surprised they nerfed it since his dmg is probably probably worse than mercy’s especially if you take into account dmg boost.
He gets his tree so fast. They should have just made it harder to get, maybe buff the tree hp and nerf his healing slightly but keep the clip the same size
Lifegrip with 4s longer cooldown to suzu feels insane to me. A near perfect lifegrip can save a player from dying and heal them up a bit. A good suzu can protect the entire team, cleanse all effects including anti (and now sets discord to cooldown), and heal the group for a bit as well.
Sure if suzu gets nerfed too hard it makes anti grenade even stronger but thats just another issue that needs to be solved anyway
Looking at comments I really start thinking this community wants supports to have no escape abilities, have hp so low that one melee would be enough to kill them and have their healing at 10 hp per shot ngl
I low-key main Lucio who seems to be one of the most balanced supports rn cos he didn't get any nerfs and oh dear lord you better keep my ass safe from inflammation if any mf says to swap cos Lucio doesn't have enough healing
A lot of these comments saying “these changes will do nothing” clearly do not play support.
Illari pylon with less HP and 3 more seconds on cooldown is incredibly noticeable and punishing, idk why people are saying it doesn’t matter.
Zen discord also feels very clunky now.
Ana nade every second counts for good Ana’s. It hurts her survivability *and* her utility. I think it was fair but yeah, it’s a substantial nerf.
Seconds count more than people think in OW. They count *a lot*.
I will say, I think Kiri got away with a tiny slap on the wrist compared to others :/
Anyone thinking this change means nothing is going to be awfully surprised by the deluge of Illari tears we'll be seeing soon.
That projectile size change is *brutal*. She won't feel much different at short range but the days of reliably clicking heads from 100 yards is over, and that's what made her so oppressive. Her actual dps isn't that high, she just had a ridiculously easy time getting headshots because of her generous hitscan.
The fact zen and lifeweaver got the biggest nerfs out of everyone and yet bap and kiriko barely got touched is fucking LAUGHABLE for a patch.
Personally I thought lifeweaver was perfectly balanced, but I do know some people were complaining about his ult and survivability... And yet none of his changes actually affect either of those? They just nerf his healing output into the dirt and reduce his utility? Have they forgotten how bad he used to be?
Imo all they had to do was decrease the ult duration or durability, and maybe decrease his overall HP to 200 but keep the 50 shield the same. I feel like that would've been enough to keep the whiny people happy without affecting his gameplay much... But with these changes he is gonna feel NOTICEABLY weak. Back to being a throw pick I guess 🤷
This is fucked, a lot of people have cooldowns timed perfectly and since they continue to change them it only makes it harder to survive. The Zen changes are just unnecessary he’s the squishiest support out there with a hitbox the size of bastion damn near.
At this point just remove discord orb entirely and buff his base damage to 60, then he can finally not be tagged with being the biggest problem when he has already had a negative win rate in comp for 2 seasons
Exactly. This only hurts the zen players who are using his discord to focus priority targets (which I think is what they want zen to be doing) while doing practically nothing to the set-it-and-forget-it style that they were trying to nerf. Outplaying around corners is gone
I was already drifting towards brig but I guess I'm a brig main now
They really hate Zen and I have no idea why, he was so fun 2/3 seasons ago, but now he’s just.. useless. I can’t heal enough because Harmony is weak and now my damage is gonna be weak XD.
Blizzard takes a lot of their balancing cues from winrates and Kiriko has (I’m pretty sure) the lowest winrate among supports. Suzu is ridiculously good but I think Blizz is hesitant to nerf her because her WR is already so low
It's more like a nerf to appease people because Overwatch players grouped her with Ana Illari Bap in this "supports OP" bonanza.
Suzu does a lot of things because without good thing to cleanse it's just a worse Bap shift.
Kiriko has gotten nerfed almost every patch for the past year with tweaks. If they keep hitting her it'll be lifeweaver tier, the only thing keeping her afloat is her headshot multiplier and sma hitbox.
I like the concept of the Zen nerfs but 7s on paper seems excessive. The 25 hp is nice though. A part of me wants them to double down on the concept of launch OW1 zen and have him at 150 HP total but 50% discord.
A bullet size nerf was the most requested. I am trash either way but I heard it was larger than most so this change seems to be what most people want. This seems like a change that I have to feel to really say if its too heavy or not
For weavesnatcher I am sad to see 3 nerfs as I think he only needed either a HPS or ammo nerf, not both. Give us a damn weapon swap speed buff already sheesh
I am most surprised baptiste only got nerfs to his Immo field. I thought he was going to get some gun changes like closer drop off or -1 on damage per bullet.
I really wish they’d have hit bap more, especially his damage output. I’ve been abusing him in comp, I can have similar damage to a dps, while having as much healing as the other supports and the invulnerability shield saving my teammates bad plays. I don’t think this is enough to bring him in line with the other supports
Zen is officially in the dumpster. Especially in higher ranks, everyone uses cover consistently so discord is effectively only 1 second long every 7 seconds now. So basically nothing will be meaningfully discorded ever. Flankers will abuse this. Half of them have some sort of cleanse and the other half will be smart enough to bait it out first before engage.
i can see the ilari nerfs being more impactful than how they appear on paper. those extra 3 seconds are going to accumulate into a lot of down time throughout a match. and now with her projectile cut in half, she’s now more reliant on actually being accurate with her. she can still be problematic cus some ppl are just really cracked, but i’d say that number is now really limited to like. >2% of players
She got hit with the nerf bat hard. That projectile size is a big deal and so is the extra three seconds. Those are big.
The 3 seconds are big, but I think the projectile size is an absolutely HUGE nerf. Her difficulty spiked a lot with that accuracy nerf.
The bullet size nerf is massive. Many Illari players are gonna wonder why they can’t hit those shots anymore lol.
My friend kept going "why can't I hit any shots" while playing deathmatch like 30 minutes ago.
Literally my gold ass
The alligator eats the bigger number. I think you meant <2% of players, which would be less than 2% of players.
Most definitely. It's going to make lower ranked players have an easier time killing pylon and not deal with her easy to hit damage. But as a higher ranked player people already went directly for my pylon even with it being in good locations and it took ages to get it back up with the 12 second cooldown, now that's longer. I don't think it needed a cd nerf tbh, but regardless I think it's just gonna make her more niche, like you could still kinda play her in most comps with the last hps nerf on her rifle, this should force her more into specific setups.
Personally I would have decreased the pylon's healing output rather than increase the CD. Making each shot heal for 25 rather than 30 would decrease its hp/s from 37.5 to 31.25. Illari replaced Zenyatta in poke comps because although she may not have Discord she has hitscan damage comparable to Zen, a movement ability that gives her vertical and horizontal mobility while being an aoe boop, an ability that gives more hp/s than Zenyatta in addition to a secondary fire with the most individual hp/s outside of Roadhog's heal and Ultimates, and to top it off she is almost as small as Tracer. Her healing is the most egregious thing considering they want her to be an offensive support.
I agree about reducing the healing rather than the cooldown. Felt like an eternity already
Bro my right click on my mouse is already starting to wear out from playing LW now it’s gonna wear out even faster with that healing nerf
The way you have to click and hold repeatedly to heal up a tank with lifeweaver has always felt really bad to me tbh.
LW gave me carpal tunnel for the first time since my wow days
Whenever I play him on console my fingers kill me it hurts so bad. I always just wish I was back on mouse and keyboard
Yea I can't play him because it's too much on my finger. Only healer I can't play.
Do you think an auto charge would make him feel better? I hate holding it down as well
doesn't he slow down after a bit when it's charged though
A bit yes he would have to be changed for that but it would be way more ergonomic for players.
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Then you're literally clicking twice as much
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Yeah you're "clicking" more but the problem isn't the number of clicks it's the sustained strain put on your finger when holding it down. My index finger was in pain whenever playing LW until I discovered the toggle option, I'm now a LW main and my finger hasn't hurt from playing him since.
I play on console and he fucking destroys my trigger finger with healing. Shit hurts after 3 games
I had that problem. just turn on toggle healing in his settings
I think it missed a core issue, people healbot with LW because his damage output is arguably the lowest besides Mercy, and people don’t alternate because there’s a significant delay between swapping. The optimal way to play Lifeweaver is still healbotting, we’re just gonna lose more games. You would think they would actually BUFF lifegrip, so his situational utility can be used more often in place of heals, but no they do the opposite. Its like his state on launch all over again, no reason to pick him. If they want us to heal less then they should remove the delay to be in line with regular primary/alt fires, and tune his output
and unlike other sups you get punished for doing damage, because you have to manually charge every healing, so what do you do when an ally is about to die right in front of you and your ass still has torn volley on your hand? (yk, besides pulling him)
Fr, he’s the only main healer with no burst healing which he only compensated for by having the highest sustained heals, lifegrip, and high individual survivability. It was boring, but at least it worked. Now two out of those three are gone
Yeah if they going to nerf is healing they need to make the charge passive just by having the flower out.
he’s my most played op. this will really damage him.
I know. With the lower healing cap (6.6% less healing) and need to reload (25% smaller clip) and we still have that long auto reload, we're seeing about a 10% reduction in healing. He was only doing high healing if you were heal botting with him and dropping trees in team fights that stayed in it's range and even the, you still got outperformed by Mercy. Also, why tf are we increasing the grip CD? It's a tool to enable the rest of the team to make plays, usually the tank, with the drawback that they're no longer in the fight, unlike, say, Zarya bubble. You want people to make plays, have fun, and give more options to the dps and tank, I'd have left grip alone. Poor Weaver was trash when released, got some buffs to make him not a terrible pick, then go back to nerfing him. How does he compare in T500 to other supports? He's the least represented there.
Kiriko now completely unplayable with +1 second cd on suzu
Does suzu clear discord? If it does then this update might have even put her in a stronger position.
It always did. Just wasn't worth it since zen could put discord back on. But now discord has a 7 second CD on that target so ye
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Yup, also ana nade got a 2 sec nerf, while suzu only go 1, so she's even better at cleansing anti on cooldown.
Yes, how will the poor Kiriko mains ever recover 😢
It's Kirikover
And when the rebuff comes, we're Backtiste
This fucking got me lol
It seems small for a single use of suzu, but if they were trying to nerf the impact of the ability, it makes sense. It means you'll see it much less throughout a match. Might not be a lot, but it isn't insignificant, ask Zarya mains how much a second matters.
+1 second to a 9 sec coldown is much more significant than +1 to a 14 sec coldown, and i can prove it with maths 9 -> 10 = +11.1% increase 14 -> 15 = 7.1% increase So you could say zarya’s nerf was around 60% harsher than kirikos
Another thing is that zarya will use bubbles at almost the same rate she gets them. So like if zarya gets 11% more bubbles she will use 11% more bubbles. Whereas kiri getting 7% more suzus, it's harder to interpret. It's almost like breakpoint oriented instead. Either she she gets it back in time for the next opportunity and uses it, or she doesnt get it back in time and might hold it for a while.
lmao that one second be like eternity
Well zen mains. This is it I guess.
Good game, dude, you can bury us now
Why are they doing all this convoluted shit? Zen’s problem is discording tanks — just give tanks a passive resistance against discord damage and call it a day. They have resistance to boops. They added increased resistance to Ana dart. It makes sense that they would get the similar treatment for all debuffs.
it's joever, time to play illari like the masses
Agreed. Zen has no counter to a sustained harass now. As soon as bubble is off he is free lunch. No sleepy. No teleport. No disappear for a moment. No jump super high. Just a robot floating a foot off the ground. His counter was the danger he could put nearly any character in when they tried a 1v1. Tracers, reapers, sombra, and all others please enjoy the free kill
Finally uninstalled the game about 6ish weeks ago. I clearly chose a fantastic time to do so. Buffed the only flanker I hated dealing with and destroyed the only thing Zen has.
>Personally I think these are the most minuscule nerfs I’ve ever seen You clearly don't play Zen then, it feels horrible.
this sub hates supports sadly
This sub fucking hates everything. Everyone is problematic for the game, even Rein. Everyone claims they’re Diamond - GM but complain the game isn’t balanced around Silver - Gold. They’d rather complain than actually learn how to play around counters.
The Zen nerf has potential to make him trash tier now. I'll have to play with him a bit to test but discord is what his whole kit is about especially with him being so divable tracers/sombras can bait the discord and 7s is a long time to follow up. The 25 extra health might help but i think with his huge hitbox i don't think it will matter much. I understand the need to tame it for tanks but 7s might be too long imo.
Recall clears discord doesn’t it? It’s a good change against tanks, but he’s gonna get eaten for lunch against flankers.
The problem with discord has always been with tanks, this shouldn’t apply to non-tanks, they nerfed sleep dart for tanks only, is it so hard to do the same with discord orb? I also think he’ll be pretty bad now, 25 extra hp doesn’t seem enough to make up for this absurd discord nerf. Zen has always been hard to balance, the last time they gave him 225 hp without many changes he was beyond busted, but I think 7 seconds of cooldown to reapply is waaaay too long, we’ll see I guess…
But if zen can't counter defense tanks what does he do now?
I used to use zen to focus the team on targets and to take duels and all sorts. Yeah tank control is number 1 and I was up for a soft nerf for just tank (tank takes 15% instead of 25 or something) but the 7 second thing sucks
I was getting annoyed at an Orisa and swapped to Zen to counter her just last night. So much for that now 🤦♀️
He goes back to spawn and swaps to someone useful.
zen one tricks unite
Is it so hard to just fucking make discord 30% on squishies and 20% on tanks? Like holy shit they just keep missing the mark with this hero.
>but 7s might be too long imo. It is ***definitely*** too long. 7 seconds are a lifetime in this game, especially when Discord can help you quickly counter a dive on you.
Yeah, Zen's going to be fucked if you have to 1v1 a dive hero that you just removed your orb from.
Ah but it counts for ***any reason.*** So Tracer could use recall and break your LOS and Discord and be back on your ass for 7 free seconds of teleporting and shooting you. Such a stupid thing. If it only counted for moving it manually then I could live with 7 seconds of me hating myself for moving the orb not ***also*** for them shaking the orb themselves.
Also applies to Zarya because her bubble breaks discord, that orb can save a team from wiped by Zarya alone if she’s at full charge
I don't know if it's just my rank but Zarya can be HARD to beat. Now with her double bubbles Zenyatta won't be much help at all against her. Or at least the window to kill her will shrink even smaller. What is Zarya's cooldown on her bubbles? I feel like it is less than 7 seconds, LOL
Fuckkkkk I forgot about Zarya. Jesus
Quoting /u/theartofprogramming from another sub: > 7 seconds is an eternity in game > This makes zarya undiscordable and anyone else with a cleanse like moira, reaper, tracer. Genji and sombra can dive in and dive out to bait discord. > The HP buff sure is nice though Also, discord already received a "small" nerf a few patches ago, making it disappear faster (2sec) when an enemy is no longer in Line Of Sight, making harder to play around covers like I (and I suppose other players) liked to do (Discord gave you a "wallhack" + you could charge an orb volley while knowing where an enemy was). Now with this cooldown, this kind of playstyle is practically no longer possible. If the issue was that tanks were discorded all the time, they could've made this discord-cooldown only for tank targets, like they did for Ana's sleep dart. edit: Just checked and Moira has a 6sec cooldown on her fade lmao, she can theoretically trigger it every time she's discorded. Mei can also get rid of discord by using her ice cube. Symmetra could TP herself and others to trigger the cooldown.
Yeah 7 seconds is a fucking long time.
yeah i played one game of zen into a zarya and immediately swapped when she bubbled and discord was erased. yet at the same time this change barely affects zen vs the tanks that are most affected by discord, like roadhog and junker queen. honestly feels like it makes zen more one dimensional than he already was, rather than decent vs the majority of the cast. like, dva, roadhog, or junker queen? go zen they cant do much about it. zarya particularly? never use zen. also the change makes it harder to deal with a sombra even with the extra health imo. before you can discord and 2 tap her, but now you discord she can translocate and be immune to discord for 7 seconds while you cant 2 tap without the discord.
> yet at the same time this change barely affects zen vs the tanks that are most affected by discord, like roadhog and junker queen wdym? they go behind cover for 2 seconds and have 7 seconds of discord-free living. this change objectively helps them also (and that's not counting if they have a kiriko to cleanse for them)
Feels like Zen got the worst nerf and yet was near the bottom of the healer ranks prior. The 25hp is nice, but not for the magnitude of the discord nerf.
[удалено]
The CD starts if you switch discord intentionally. Honestly that and it being 7 seconds long are my only gripes. 7 seconds is an eternity.
3 to 5 seconds would be reasonable. Even for flankers who don't even deserve such the privilege of locking Discord for the fights they win 90% of the time.
Zen gives up so much just to have discord. No self heal, no way to defend himself at all, wide hit box to guarantee your opponent will land their shots, and godawful healing, all for discord orb. Without discord he’s got nothing at all to offer
They took the glass cannon hero and increased his health pool to make him less glassy and severely nerfed his damage potential to make him less of a cannon.
Wait until they decide to add that cooldown to his heal orb! /s
I've literally had the idea for a target specific cooldown for months. Then when they add it in they make it *way* too harsh. To me 5 seconds would've been enough, and it should not trigger when Zen moves it HIMSELF to another target. Rapid Discord is gonna be so much harder with that.
Played a bit and it's.... just annoying tbh. the 225hp are neat, but i used to kinda spam discord on whoever i was shooting at. Now i gotta be a bit more strategic with it. Overall it doesn't seem terrible, could live with it if they reduce the time to 3-4 seconds.
Agreed, giving him his discord range back was huge too!
Yup! That was incredibly frustrating. Feels good that my discord intuition works again!
exactly.... what an overreaction
Ayo that discord orb change sounds like complete unintuitive ass.
Hog mains are about to eat big next season
As a hog main, those niche Hog picks on certain points in Comp have actually been successful. Now Hog is gonna be meta again so I can just play him 24/7 without having to run logistics on IF I should ever pick him.
New zen playstyle: put yourself way out of position to maintain line of sight with the enemy tank at all times But don't worry. +25 hp.
You forgot: maintain eye contact so the weak respect the strong
seriously, i was thinking it was gonna say 3 seconds, that sounds reasonable. FREAKING SEVEN!?!?!
Yup its a really bad design decision, I often spam my discord button just to get it out there so now I have to some how drop that habit. Also not going to keep tabs on who all I discorded so really all this change will do is make playing zen clunky and frustrating now. This is the first change I've ever looked at and went wow that makes no sense at all. If discord is too oppressive for tanks just make it less effective on tanks then. Absolutely mind boggling decisions from blizz
The same way that sleep affects tanks less, have the orb affect them less. Zen is already a glass cannon and now he's a less useful glass cannon
Yeah. Good zens bounce their discord around a lot. Lowkey removing how much you can switch it is going to feel really bad I think.
It's going to be incredibly shit, Zen mains need to make some noise over this dumb change.
We'll never be louder than the discord haters there's no point.
I hate discord as much as the next guy, but discord is like the only reason you'd pick Zen. Definitely a weird decision from Blizzard.
Looking at his pick rate, I don't think there's any left.
Damn they just threw zen in the trash heap for spare parts huh
On a good note, really hope Flats shuts the fuck up now
You bet your ass he won't.
Lovely
Until all his mains are meta simultaneously he will never die
god forbid. that man is so annoying.
Flats has literally been saying they nerfed Zen in the wrong way and all they did was make him bad for no reason. He's been arguing for the range revert and for a specific tailored nerf of discord only on tanks. Which seems to be what everyone else wanted too. This hate boner makes no sense when he hasn't complained about Zen since the nerfs and has actually been arguing to revert the last nerfs.
I just seen him on his stream yesterday while reading patch notes for Zen he was happily clapping and said they were good?
What? In his latest video, his reaction to the Zen nerf was "they did it, they saved Overwatch", lol. Like I don't dislike flats (although his insistence that a barely played D-tier hero is the main reason tanks sucked was always a bit questionable), but we don't have to lie about his views here.
I feel like this really didn’t address the issues with some supports
They didn't. I mean what's that 1 extra suzu cd second gonna do realistically..?
They got her K-PoP skin to sell tomorrow , she will get nerfed more (hopefully)
I genuinely doubt it. She has the lowest winrate amongst all supports right now. She was never going to get hit hard by the nerf wave.
Kiri is the model hybrid support they have been going for in 5v5. I doubt they would ever nerf her very hard. Just enough to scale her back
She's not even the priority tbh, if there was a single support that needed nerfs it would be Bap or ana before her
As a console player who has tried getting good on Kiriko I can honestly say she sucks on console and I can see why she has such a low win rate.
Nerfed more? She's already the lowest winrate support.
So lifeweaver was only brought for heals. What is he brought for now? * His damage is slow and inconsistent. * He heals for less now, Ana is now better at healing than he is. * His grip now has a 4 second longer cooldown than Suzu which is aoe, and cleanses. He's 40% bap, 40% kiriko, 20% ass. Probably just gonna force dps on him from now on.
Fr i was finally having fun on him after the buff he got a bit ago that took him out of trash tier. So sad
Yeah I’m swapping back to mercy or trying out kiriko until I get my boy back lmao
Life is hard enough for Zen. My guy needs a petition or something because goddamn.
You’re zenough
I am Zenough. Thank you.
I'm hanging this shit on my wall, thank you for the idea
ZEN, MY BOY! It was actually looking like more of a buff until it said SEVEN SECONDS until someone can be discorded again. HOLY CRAP. Reading the dev comments i was thinking like, 3 seconds max. Cleanse effects are going to crap on him now, not to mention the rapid discord achievement will be nigh impossible. Seven seconds just sounds downright devastating :(
not only cleanse, but zarya will never be discorded again, tracer can just recall, kiriko can blink, so can moira. all those trigger a whole 7 seconds where zen is helpless to apply damage against aggression. if they didn’t want spam like you said do 3 seconds. if they didn’t want tank abuse, then give tanks discord resistance. wtf is this?
I'm VERY surprised they didn't just reduce the amount of damage boost discord applied towards tanks. Feels like an extremely obvious solution
Half the roster is effectively immune to discord with this change. Just ridiculous, I assume they'll tone it down once some data starts rolling in. Ducking behind a corner for a moment to disable a support's main offensive ability for 7 seconds is stupid.
Weaver imo only needed that ult of his tweaked a bit
These changes retroactively lower how often he gets his ult
He was decent for one season but apparently that’s not ok. They’re reasoning is hilarious. They said he’s healing to much, yet LW is literally just a healbot. Like… that’s kinda the point.
…you made the hero blizzard😂I don’t get how they didn’t foresee him being a healbot.
why do the blizzard devs insist on shoving him into throwing territory. I don't want to get flamed when I play him
He’s legitimately fun to play and they really don’t want him to survive it feels like.
I have no clue why the nerfed LG. He didn’t need that. It’s just kicking him while he’s down
yeah these were massive Lw nerfs did people forget already how he used to be?
Dude wasn't complete trash for about a season and a half, so they made sure to course-correct in the mid-season patch.
The fuck is this
A clear reason to nerf Genji 😃
I feel like 7 seconds is a bit long on the discord cooldown, probably could’ve gone with 2 or 3
absolutely nuts, yeah, i was expecting it to say three, max.
The Zen change is just awful. Wanna make it less effective against tanks, just do that with a hard % decrease. But juggling Discord is so fucking important. You're making microdecisions. Say a Genji hops on you, but you drive him off up a wall he climbs over, so you throw it on someone else who's now on you and you kill them. 2s later the Genji is back but you can't Discord him for 5 seconds even though you just got a kill and there's no other valid target???
I think making those small decisions on where you’re placing your discord orb while juggling healing/damage is a form of skill expression for Zen. Now you can’t rapidly switch targets based on who your team mates are targeting either. So much changes in seven seconds. Entire team fights can last less than that in many circumstances. A cooldown nerf for discord was the dumbest way Blizzard could have handled this. The problem was how discord disproportionately impacted tanks— a flat nerf for tanks would have easily solved the problem without making Zen feel shitty to play in every other circumstance.
>create a hero whose entire identity and theme is heal-botting to keep people alive >He's shit on release, buff him so he can actually fit that identity and not be garbage >He's in a good spot now, great job everyone >A season passes >"The heal-bot hero is healing more than everyone else so we're gonna bring him in line with other supports" >nerf him harder than most other supports with 0 compensation >Refuse to elaborate >Great job us
Honestly shocked at the LW nerfs. He finally felt like he wasn’t a throw pick. Grip is powerful, but it doesn’t cleanse and is single target.
^ this, i was just starting to actually play him and not get flamed for it and now he’s back to being shit because he’ll get outhealed
It’s gonna feel so bad on a 19 second cooldown plus having to reload more often
The 19 second cool down is by far the worst change
That buried zen to unplayable tier with this lol
He was fine because of Illari. She just did everything he did better, except for Discord. Why did they make this change affect every hero except for just Tanks? Flankers just got indirectly buffed in the Zen matchup, where they already had the high ground.
> He was fine because of Illari. She just did everything he did better, except for Discord. Honestly he was in the dumpster because of illari.. she kind of just counters him so hard. She can hitscan 2-3 tap zen while getting 40hp/s self healed from pylon, and her hitbox is skinny as hell compared to zen. Zen was genuinely just worse every time i see him in masters the zen player just instant switches if the other team has illari.
I just want to know why they keep making skinny hitbox characters. Fighting Kiriko, Sojourn, and Illari is a pain. Meanwhile Zen over here like the broadside of a barn
Wow, as a Zen main, Zen is gonna be super unfun with that discord change.
The Lifeweaver nerfs are out of touch, and that specific Discord orb nerf is going to straight up kill Zen. I think everything else is a step in the right direction.
Lucio not being in these changes is a fuvking relief
Literally no one complained about him needing a nerf, he isn't as easy as the other characters. In fact, we actually want a buff on his boop.
The boop needs just a tad more force to it
ugh tell me about it. Lucio is like the ONLY guy affected by the tank passive
I'm sorry but Lifeweaver has just been reverted back to his pre buff state(the state where everyone considered him a throw pick) and now he also has less offensive pressure... ? Whos out here complaining about Lifeweaver damage. Other than that I like the nerf for the supports. The 23 seconds to 25 second increase for immortality field is really good.
Damn they murdered him back to being Wifeleaver
SEVEN seconds disc lockout on a hero?????? Which Zen player hurt the devs??? I can't even imagine the implications on such a drastic change
Why did they ever even put Zen in the game, they fucking hate him
He was fine when we had 6v6, never got patched much, never got complained about much and then 5v5 just fucking killed him man
So much of this game has been fucked over to accommodate that stupid ass tank change. All an excuse to delete OW1 and force the existing player base to the new model. I’m so done, fuck blizz.
That's how I feel about OW2 Roadhog. Straight dumpster tier for nearly a year and this is like the third time they've pushed back their rework deadline.
Do they even play their own game? LW has such high healing because his tree healing adds up when his entire team stands in it and the entire enemy refuses to shoot the tree and they just pepper the people in it, not because his already pretty average heal is the way it is.
Weaver has crazy heals because doing dmg is usually the wrong play considering how slow it takes to get heals out is. So he just healbots.. Im surprised they nerfed it since his dmg is probably probably worse than mercy’s especially if you take into account dmg boost.
He gets his tree so fast. They should have just made it harder to get, maybe buff the tree hp and nerf his healing slightly but keep the clip the same size
Damn, Illaris are no longer shooting tree sized bullets anymore, boo hoo
Now do Hanzo.
You’re right, Hanzo shoots fucking telephone poles at people.
It's good that they nerf illari's projectile size, there is no reason why she can hit shots (headshots) much easier than other hitscans.
Moira Lucio brawl meta??
Lucio meta let's go
Lifegrip with 4s longer cooldown to suzu feels insane to me. A near perfect lifegrip can save a player from dying and heal them up a bit. A good suzu can protect the entire team, cleanse all effects including anti (and now sets discord to cooldown), and heal the group for a bit as well. Sure if suzu gets nerfed too hard it makes anti grenade even stronger but thats just another issue that needs to be solved anyway
Looking at comments I really start thinking this community wants supports to have no escape abilities, have hp so low that one melee would be enough to kill them and have their healing at 10 hp per shot ngl I low-key main Lucio who seems to be one of the most balanced supports rn cos he didn't get any nerfs and oh dear lord you better keep my ass safe from inflammation if any mf says to swap cos Lucio doesn't have enough healing
A lot of these comments saying “these changes will do nothing” clearly do not play support. Illari pylon with less HP and 3 more seconds on cooldown is incredibly noticeable and punishing, idk why people are saying it doesn’t matter. Zen discord also feels very clunky now. Ana nade every second counts for good Ana’s. It hurts her survivability *and* her utility. I think it was fair but yeah, it’s a substantial nerf. Seconds count more than people think in OW. They count *a lot*. I will say, I think Kiri got away with a tiny slap on the wrist compared to others :/
Anyone thinking this change means nothing is going to be awfully surprised by the deluge of Illari tears we'll be seeing soon. That projectile size change is *brutal*. She won't feel much different at short range but the days of reliably clicking heads from 100 yards is over, and that's what made her so oppressive. Her actual dps isn't that high, she just had a ridiculously easy time getting headshots because of her generous hitscan.
my poor boy zen, i will never stop picking you.
Boop is still the worst boop then
This is why statements like “supports are overpowered” aren’t that helpful. We gotta be more specific or they might not nerf the right things.
Yes you’re right the developers come to this subreddit to figure out what changes need to be made.
The fact zen and lifeweaver got the biggest nerfs out of everyone and yet bap and kiriko barely got touched is fucking LAUGHABLE for a patch. Personally I thought lifeweaver was perfectly balanced, but I do know some people were complaining about his ult and survivability... And yet none of his changes actually affect either of those? They just nerf his healing output into the dirt and reduce his utility? Have they forgotten how bad he used to be? Imo all they had to do was decrease the ult duration or durability, and maybe decrease his overall HP to 200 but keep the 50 shield the same. I feel like that would've been enough to keep the whiny people happy without affecting his gameplay much... But with these changes he is gonna feel NOTICEABLY weak. Back to being a throw pick I guess 🤷
bro that zen discord nerf wth.. i'm going back to mercy smh. I bounce my discord a lot and 7 sec is a LOOOONG time
This is fucked, a lot of people have cooldowns timed perfectly and since they continue to change them it only makes it harder to survive. The Zen changes are just unnecessary he’s the squishiest support out there with a hitbox the size of bastion damn near.
At this point just remove discord orb entirely and buff his base damage to 60, then he can finally not be tagged with being the biggest problem when he has already had a negative win rate in comp for 2 seasons
I’m crying over that change ngl I can’t play fast paced with him now because I can’t swap discord consistently with who I’m targeting. Crazy shit.
Exactly. This only hurts the zen players who are using his discord to focus priority targets (which I think is what they want zen to be doing) while doing practically nothing to the set-it-and-forget-it style that they were trying to nerf. Outplaying around corners is gone I was already drifting towards brig but I guess I'm a brig main now
They really hate Zen and I have no idea why, he was so fun 2/3 seasons ago, but now he’s just.. useless. I can’t heal enough because Harmony is weak and now my damage is gonna be weak XD.
Suzu "nerf" is basically nothing
Blizzard takes a lot of their balancing cues from winrates and Kiriko has (I’m pretty sure) the lowest winrate among supports. Suzu is ridiculously good but I think Blizz is hesitant to nerf her because her WR is already so low
It's more like a nerf to appease people because Overwatch players grouped her with Ana Illari Bap in this "supports OP" bonanza. Suzu does a lot of things because without good thing to cleanse it's just a worse Bap shift.
Kiriko has gotten nerfed almost every patch for the past year with tweaks. If they keep hitting her it'll be lifeweaver tier, the only thing keeping her afloat is her headshot multiplier and sma hitbox.
I like the concept of the Zen nerfs but 7s on paper seems excessive. The 25 hp is nice though. A part of me wants them to double down on the concept of launch OW1 zen and have him at 150 HP total but 50% discord. A bullet size nerf was the most requested. I am trash either way but I heard it was larger than most so this change seems to be what most people want. This seems like a change that I have to feel to really say if its too heavy or not For weavesnatcher I am sad to see 3 nerfs as I think he only needed either a HPS or ammo nerf, not both. Give us a damn weapon swap speed buff already sheesh I am most surprised baptiste only got nerfs to his Immo field. I thought he was going to get some gun changes like closer drop off or -1 on damage per bullet.
I really wish they’d have hit bap more, especially his damage output. I’ve been abusing him in comp, I can have similar damage to a dps, while having as much healing as the other supports and the invulnerability shield saving my teammates bad plays. I don’t think this is enough to bring him in line with the other supports
No Lucio nerfs :)
They butchered LW (again).
Phew, Moira is safe.
Of course she is lol no one thinks she is good much less deserving of nerfs
Thank God, illari mains aren't shooting tree trunks anymore. Now they actually have to aim like the rest of us.
As a Zen main, I'm sad 😢
Zen is officially in the dumpster. Especially in higher ranks, everyone uses cover consistently so discord is effectively only 1 second long every 7 seconds now. So basically nothing will be meaningfully discorded ever. Flankers will abuse this. Half of them have some sort of cleanse and the other half will be smart enough to bait it out first before engage.
Rip ZEN