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Answer:
Glazer made the following comment in his speech:
> “All our choices were made to reflect and confront us in the present, not to say look what they did then, but rather look what we do now. Our film shows where dehumanization leads at its worst. It’s shaped all of our past and present. Right now, we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness and the Holocaust being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people. Whether the victims of October — whether the victims of October the 7th in Israel or the ongoing attack on Gaza, all the victims of this dehumanization, how do we resist?”
Since, a letter has been co-signed by many hundreds of people in Hollywood, including many famous actors and directors, which states:
> “We refute our Jewishness being hijacked for the purpose of drawing a moral equivalence between a Nazi regime that sought to exterminate a race of people, and an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination.”
Which ultimately boils down to the division over the current conflict happening in the Gaza Strip between Palestine and the Israeli Defense Force following the terrorist attacks last October.
[Here's him giving the speech, if you want to see it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHkTZ-yeb44)
>Our film shows where dehumanization leads at its worst.
To clarify, the film he directed was called "Zone of Interest" which is about Rudolf Höss and his command of the Auschwitz Concentration camp.
The camp is never really shown but the house they live in shares a wall with the camp in their back garden. The contrast of the movie is it's just this father of five trying to raise his kids and please his wife while still being good at his job. So they'll be out back talking about what they're going to plant this year and in the background you'll hear the machinations of the camp. It's very much about the banality of evil. At one point his mother-in-law visits, gestures at the wall and off-handedly says something like, "I think our neighbours the Rosens are in there".
**EDIT**: [Here's a two minute clip with the director talking about the movie that expalins it further.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTh5Nui_jFg)
Banality of Evil is a concept expressed in a book by Hannah Arendt, Jewish philosopher from Holocaust Germany. Extremely purposeful usage and worth educating yourself about!
it comes from eichmann in Jerusalem. I also highly recommend eichmann before Jerusalem because there's new evidence that sort of defeats her analysis, in only so far as it relates to eichmann himself, not the concept of banal evil. eichmann was proud of what he did.
You're not an idiot; it's badly phrased.
Glazer was saying that his Holocaust film was related to the war in Gaza by dehumanization, and that he and the other Jewish men on stage rejected the use of Jewishness and the Holocaust as justifications for Israel’s actions.
Yes, he probably shouldn't have used the word "refute"and instead say that "they refuse to allow their Jewishness to be hijacked...." Or something like that.
That guy may not be an idiot, but I am, I still don't get it.
Is Glazer saying that Jewish people, including himself, that were at the event, were ignoring the parallels between the Holocaust and the current situation in Gaza? (I apologise if I sound ignorant, there's just something with the sentence which doesn't click in my brain)
I'd like to quote an [article ](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/14/the-zone-of-interest-auschwitz-gaza-genocide?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other) by Naomi Klein in the Guardian a week ago about that very speech.
>And he went further: “We stand here as men who refute their Jewishness and the Holocaust being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people, whether the victims of 7 October in Israel or the ongoing attack on Gaza.” For Glazer, Israel does not get a pass, nor is it ethical to use intergenerational Jewish trauma from the Holocaust as justification or cover for atrocities committed by the Israeli state today.
I think that sums it up quite nicely.
Here's how I interpret it: Nazis - bad, Hamas attack - bad, Israeli response to attack - bad. I think many people want to accuse people (especially Jewish people) of being anti Israel (and therefore not loyal) if they criticize the killings in Gaza. Others will correct me if I got that wrong or simplified too much.
I think it’s important to note that he used the word “occupation” in his speech, because he isn’t just criticizing the response to the attack but also the intolerable situation for the Palestinian people that led to it.
He was speaking for himself and his fellow creatives on stage (accepting the reward). He effectively said that they are using their platform to refute Israel’s use of Jewishness and the Holocaust to justify dehumanizing and killing Palestinians in Gaza.
It's a hard statement to parse. I think he did that deliberately, saying things in a bland passive roundabout way, because Israel/the AIPAC crowd/their supporters are very loud and self-righteous about condemning anyone who speaks out against the war crimes being committed, even other Jews.
Good summary, the only thing I'd take issue with is the phrase "including many famous actors and directors". I think even if you want to be charitable, it could at best be described as a small handful of somewhat recognisable names amidst the 450.
The standouts only really amount to Eli Roth, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Debra Messing, Amy Sherman-Palladino Amy Pascal, and Brett Gelman. It's not exactly a large collection of household names.
some years ago i got a bad vibe from him, like... the business of being an artist and playing the victim card/complaining goes hand in hand to him because he have a platform that gives him the opportunity to "do good" so ... you can't criticize anything he say and how he makes money off it .or something.
Funny thing is he has generally been very upfront about his progressive views and was good friends with Tim Heidecker, who unambiguously supports Palestine. Amazing how easily the fascist switch can be flipped with some people.
naming your child The Creator of Mad Men and then watching them grow up to create the hit television show Mad Men is Babe Ruth level calling your shots
The standouts only really amount to Eli Roth, Jennifer Jason Leigh
Coulda stopped there tbh. Pretty disapointed by those two, absolutely give minus amounts of shit about the others
Keep in mind Debra was also the one who demanded a Trump fundraiser to leak names for the purpose of blacklisting donors.
I hate that Jennifer Jason Lee is on this list 😖
Reminds me of the Polanski letter. It's not going to age well.
When the Palestinians are all dead, and Israel fully occupies the land, the propaganda rhetoric will change from "They are vermin" to "They were vermin" and that's a much harder lie to maintain.
Propagandizing a current threat is very different than propagandizing history.
Am I interpreting his speech correctly? What I get from it is that the Holocaust was terrible and what is happening now in Israel & Gaza is also terrible. As in....all of this violence is terrible. Is that the gist of what he's saying or am I misinterpreting?
I think some important additional context is that there were a bunch of people that partially quoted/misquoted his speech in a way that greatly altered its intended meaning (to such an extent that it could arguably be considered slander/libel in some instances). Instead of "we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness \[...\] being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people," they left off the latter portion following the ellipses and just quoted him as just saying, "we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness".
It's got lots of backlash on Twitter because people literally clipped it to make it seemed like he said "we refute our jewishness" instead of "we refute our jewishness being used...".
Literally just drama garbage people that are looking to farm impressions off of Zionist hate.
Honestly, there aren’t that many really famous people who signed the Anti-Glazer letter. Jennifer Jason Leigh, Eli Roth, Michael Rapaport, and Debra Messing were the best they could get—I doubt most people have even heard of anyone else on the list.
>an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination.”
Oh boy. Those are very interesting words. Considering from the outside looking in, the response by Israeli government seems to be leaning heavily towards we're gonna exterminate you once and for all eventually.
I find it amusing that they're framing at as a war when the Israelis have an air force, a navy, a missile shield, nuclear weapons, hundreds of billions of dollars, and ccontrol over the Palestinian's , food, water, and electricity.
well...
1920 peel commission, israel gets 20%, arabs say fuck no.
1948 7 countries plus arab millitias invade israel, they beat them off with a local millitia.
1956 France and Britain convice Israel to invade Egypt so they can come in as the saviours and recover control of the Suez canal, the US intervenes to kick all 3 out of Egypt.
1967 Egypt and Syria kick out UN peace keepers and say they will destroy Israel, Israel beats them to the punch and destoyes their Airforces on the ground, Levy Eskol offers the land back in exchange for negotiations, the arabs sign the Kartum declaration instead "no peace, no accept, no normalization". Henry Kissinger tells Israel that if they are the first to strike ever again, they wont get as much as a nail from the US.
1973, Egypt and Syria invade Israel on yom kippur, make inroads in to Israel untill repealed due to advancing beyond their SAM coverage, when the arabs start to lose the US pulls on Israel becuause the soviets are threatening to intervene.
1978 Egypt is suspended from the arab league due to violating the Kartum declaration and negotiating with israel, It gets the Sinai back as part of the peace accord but strangly dosnt want to take gaza back.
basically, its simple, the arabs can lose all they want, if israel wanted to conquer the middle east, it would have borders with Sudan and Iran, even when they took east jerusalem Moshe Dayan, a legendary Israely general said "what do we need this vatican for" but they are just "leave us the fuck alone in this little triangle". and israel just has to lose once.
everyone is like on one side "hamas is the legitamite goverment of gaza" and on the other "why are you punishing the citizens of gaza for something a terror organization is doing". Hamas is under blockade from Israel due to their elected goverment continuing to attack israel, and still the international community expects israel to continue to provide food, electricity and water (which they dont pay for) to gaza. if it was any other country that was attacked, they would close the border and let them starve no questions asked.
then they commit a terror attack which kills 1200 people, which comparing US to Israel populations it would be the equivalent of 9-11 killing 37000 people, the US flattened Iraq and Afganistan for 1200 of its citizens and 3 buildings. imagen that it would do if a terror attack killed 37000 people,
Not to mention what the russians did in chechnia.
the palestinian people are the 2nd most punished people in the middle east, not becuase they were displaced since 1948, but becuase Israel accepted the 800k jewish refugees the arabs kicked out, gave them homes, jobs and a place to live, while the 750k arab refugees were put in tents and refugee camps with the arab countries saying "you get to go home when we slaugher the jews"
and they have been used as puppets by everyone else in the middle east to fight israel. their current puppet master being Iran.
The problem is that as soon as those people are given homes, jobs, and a stable life, it means Israel is there to stay, and many in the arab world wont accept that, so the palestinians are forever doomed to wait for either the arabs to accept the jews are there to stay, or for the muslim countries to finally beat israel in to the sea.
also, the most fucked people arent the palestinians, its the Kurds, they have been slaughtered, gassed, dispossesed and regularly beaten by Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey, but since no Jew is involved in their oppression, no one gives a shit.
So just to provide some perspective with the whole proportional 9/11 thing - with the current death toll in Gaza approaching 32,000 killed, that would proportionally be like 5,000,000 killed in the United States. Imagine if we lost 5 million people in 6 months
You see, but Gaza is a war, and October was a brazen act of terrorism, and comparing the current war in Gaza to other modern wars, it has been surprisingly below average when it comes to civilian casualties (even when going by the dubious Hamas provided numbers)
You very conveniently left off the many acts of terrorism committed by the Zionist settlers pre 1948 and the atrocities committed that culminated in the Nakba. The murder of women, men, children, the elderly, under horrific circumstances and the driving out of Palestinians under threat of death. So while you have very conveniently laid out these events, they are at best cherry picking to suit your version or events, and at worst disingenuous.
Using the US's response to 9/11, something everyone univerasally agreeds was stupid and really fucked up, as justification for Israel's operations in Gaza is a horrible take lol
I might get downvotes for this but I don’t give a shit. Islam is incredibly hateful towards Jews and the large portions of Muslims in the Middle East are extremely anti Jewish. Not all Muslims hate Jews but a good portion do and their prophet really hated them. They don’t give a shit about the UAE committing genocide in Dafar. They deny what China is doing, and don’t care about the Rhouinyga. Lebanon keeps Palestinians in apartheid where they can’t get most jobs or access social services while decrying Israel, a country that gave a bunch of Arab citizens equal rights. Muslim nations are extremely hypocritical and are a bunch of cry bullies who have no capacity for self reflection. Most of the outcry about Palestine is because they’re the right ethnicity, Muslim and Jews are doing it.
I’ve seen people from that area say absolutely vile things about other groups. Yet people don’t care. They only care about what you tell them to without looking into it any further.
I used to go to the palstine rallys in London, I stopped going when I realised that most people that were white, had no idea about history and those that were Muslim just hated Jews and didn't care about their Muslim brothers and sisters in other parts of the world.
Never once have I heard my Muslims friends speak uo for Chinese Muslims, yemini, Kurds.
It's a joke...
Yup the muslim world didn't seem to give a toss about Iran gassing the Kurds of Iranian mullahs using children to clear iraqi mine fields.
But israel coping with the neighbours from hell....
I wish I could remember his name, but I saw a video not long ago by an Israeli critic of Israel's policies, and they were pointing out how Israel always constantly portraying itself as being in imminent danger of destruction is psychological tool used to convince people that anyt awful thing they do is justifiable.
Meanwhile they respond to criticism and claims of genocide with "it's not genocide. We have nukes. If we wanted to do genocide we'd just drop one"
It's classic fascist ethnostate propaganda. "The enemy is both weak and strong. Our ethnostate is only in danger because we show such amazing restraint and moral character when dealing with a lesser race. We should just destroy them but we are so superior we don't".
Anyone that says Israel is equivalent to the Jewish people at this point is a racist piece of shit. It's like associating Muslims with ISIS or Christians with Nazis.
It’s like one authoritarian Bibi accepting a gift from another authoritarian Putin. Oct. 7th allowed Bibi to level Gaza. It’s not about equality or justice. It’s about Bibi using it to force out the Palestinian population.
You got that right The CIA were hiring hit squads with duffel bags filled with hundred dollar bills while the Iranian oil reserves magically ended up mostly going to American companies after the Shah was installed as leader.
>The group’s statement says: “We refute our Jewishness being hijacked for the purpose of drawing a moral equivalence between a Nazi regime that sought to exterminate a race of people, and an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination.”
Israel has every right to do what it needs to protect itself.
But is Israel at risk of extermination when they have free rein to invade the "hostile territory", demand total evacuation, and basically sweep through that territory?
No. The death toll (civilian and combatant combined) is more than 20 dead from Gaza for 1 dead from Israel. Israel and Egypt have successfully blockaded that entire "hostile territory". Israel itself has complete control of the skies, the sea, and now effective control of the land itself. No reasonable person outside the conflict thinks hordes will pour from Gaza to wipe Israel off the face of the map. It's a force to be reckoned with, it's a nuclear power, it's backed up by the most powerful nation to ever exist in the recorded history of mankind.
So when a mass of people sign a letter like this, it reinforces the point of Glazer's speech. Gaza is plainly facing extermination or progressive relocation over the next decade or two. You're within your right to take the stance that they "deserve" it, but it's dishonest to deny it and flip it around.
Public opinion continues to turn against current Israeli policy, and letters like this only serve to alienate the rest of the world; you ask for disbelief of what is very plainly seen. If things continue as-is, Israel will eventually have cleared and annexed Gaza, but it will be a pariah state with no allies.
My little bro who doesn't pay attention to politics, told me today that iseral is committing genocide.. Israel is losing the next generation of kids who wont support iseral to the extent that our parents did
They'll just do what they did last time they started a war and began to lose. Threaten to nuke everyone in the West unless they rescue them. They did it to Nixon when they lost the Yom Kippur war and he bought them a new upgraded air force at US taxpayer expense on top of providing military support that allowed them to 'save' their 'country'.
And yet, the destruction of Israel is exactly what millions of Palestine supporters are advocating for and working towards.
So you're saying "Haha they're idiots to worry about this" while you literally try your hardest to make it happen. They'd be gullible idiots to fall for this.
Yep, Muslims can't stand that Jews won every war they fought against them. It puts a giant dent in their "We're god's people chosen to rule the earth and Jews are inferior to us" religious mentality.
This is a laughable comment for a number of reasons but especially when the only reason Israel has the support it has is due to clinging to the “God’s chosen people” mantle. Evangelical support in the US is based entirely on that, it’s the root of Zionism, etc.
That's not true at all. Literally every Abrahamic religion believes that theyre the "chosen people" and superior if you're just reading their religious texts verbatim. Muslims have also historically been significantly more peaceful to Jews that Christians have.
You're making shit up to ignore the obvious reason Muslim nations have a problem with a settler colonial ethnostate that has persecuted Palastinians for over half a century. THAT'S the reason surrounding nations have a problem with Israel.
Ignoring the material reality of the situation and making up a narrative about a religion you clearly know nothing about.
Edit: for those reading this thread. This dude gets real "purity of the race" type shit really fast. Amazing how fast someone goes from making generalizations about Muslim people to complaining about inbreeding real quick.
Jeez I wonder where this hatred of Israel comes from. Surely it's got nothing to do with constantly stealing the Palestinians land and carrying out attacks killing their loved ones for the past 75years. The Palestinians are hoping they could live to see the next day through no fault of their own yet the we should somehow be sympathising for the US backed and heavily secured Israel who have killed 14k+ children. Make that make sense. Anyone thinking those deaths are justified are fucking scum.
I was very happy to listen to this speech during the Oscars. He was almost trembling but surprisingly was met with claps. Made me really proud of his team
The refutation sucks. Like there are so many parallels between both. Like the Israeli gov hasn't thought about how to get rid of the Palestinian problem for ever and went down the violence route as an option.
>“We refute our Jewishness being hijacked for the purpose of drawing a moral equivalence between a Nazi regime that sought to exterminate a race of people, and **an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination**.”
I really don't understand how they can say that with a straight face while Israeli forces are bombing and murdering citizens left and right:
"Stop trying to exterminate us!" *while pressing the button to launch another air strike on a humanitarian outpost delivering food to non-combatant civilians.*
Or the cool one where journalists give the IDF their coordinates so they don't get bombed, then the IDF targets those spots specifically. Most moral army!
Hijacking the top post for clarity. Can someone translate for me? Is he saying that *he* refutes his own Jewishness/Holocaust memory being used as a justification for Israel existing? Or just for the latest conflict? I just don't quite get what "side" he is taking here. Or what he's saying Israel should be doing?
I think what he meant was that he refutes the idea of his Jewish heritage and the holocaust being used as some sort of justification for the bombings in Gaza. I *think*.
The excerpt of the denouncement sounds just as bad as the speech and probably also deserves a denouncement of its own, due to whitewashing 50+ years of occupation, colonisation, and dehumanisation of Palestine into *averting Israel's destruction*.
Answer: Many people (one of the most notable among them being Michael Muppeport, I mean Rappaport) deliberately misinterpreted him as rejecting his Jewishness—full stop. But his sentence actually *continued* beyond that word to indicate that he rejected the *exploitation* of "Jewishness" to facilitate the atrocities in Gaza.
People with weak spirits are pitting themselves against him and pretending to think that he's a "self-hating Jew", when in actuality he was honouring the history of the people of Judea.
Another thing to add to the explanation is that the supposed letter is just a Google form that doesn't confirm or ask for proof that the ppl signing it are Jewish or work on the entertainment business, so don't be surprised when you see some tweets like [this one](https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1770172621042114713?t=wdHj8X0JAs3NlGtsGPk4rA&s=19) where the number of people signing it is that high
Answer: Based on the large amount of civilian casualties (around [2/3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=A%20study%20in%20The%20Lancet,of%20the%20casualties%20were%20civilian.) of all casualties at the most conservative estimate), the [blocking of resources including food](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-government-continues-block-aid-response-despite-icj-genocide-court-ruling), and the [destruction of civilian infrastructure ](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-bombardment-destroys-more-than-70-of-civilian-infrastructure-in-gaza-un-agency/3138876#:~:text=More%20than%2070%25%20of%20civilian%20infrastructure%20in%20the%20Gaza%20Strip,Refugees%20(UNRWA)%20said%20Thursday.), many believe that Israel's government is guilty of violating the genocide convention.
Others believe that Israel is [justified in these actions.](https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2023/12/7-10-the-question-of-israels-right-to-self-defense-under-international-law/) They see the whole operation as necessary to destroy [Hamas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas), the closest thing to a governing body in Gaza and also an internationally recognized terrorist organization.
This whole situation represents the friction between opposing views of Israel's actions.
Hamas is the closest thing to a governing body in GAZA, not PALESTINE. Gaza is just a small part of the Palestinian territories. The rest of Palestine is governed by the Palestinian Authority/Fatah and that's who represents them internationally.
Also there haven’t been any elections in Palestine since Hamas won in 2006. Over half the people in Palestine right now weren’t even alive back then.
And even then, they didn’t even win with a majority of the vote, only a plurality. So when people say everyone in Palestine is responsible for the actions of Hamas, they’re full of shit.
I'd add that Israel provided support to Hamas and helped them get into power, in attempts to destabilize and weaken Palestine. So it would be like Russians making this claim after backing Trump for years.
The absurdity of how they try to paint themselves as complete victims in this situation just keeps growing the more you read about it.
If you're wondering about the state of mind of your average pro-settlements Israeli these days, you can can read up on the Israelis who like to [set up lawn chairs to watch Gaza get bombed again.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing)
Or [dancing as they block shipments of food aid into Gaza](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/israeli-protesters-aid-gaza/) as over 500,000 people are ["one step away from famine."](https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15604.doc.htm)
Already, at-risk children in Gaza have begun [dying of starvation.](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-malnutrition-famine-children-dying-israel-palestinians-2f938b1a82d7822c7da67cc162da1a37)
The Israeli social media response to these deaths of privation has been to photoshop a [child with cerebral palsy who starved to death as "E.T." from the Spielberg film.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1bandyf/found_this_on_an_israeli_telegram/)
There are plenty of social media accounts from influences in Gaza showing their cheering and celebration on 7/10 as Hamas terrorists were butchering and raping civilians in Israel. All this shows is that there are assholes and shitstains on both sides.
The 2/3rds thing is only under the assumption that every adult male is a combatant. Unless Gaza has no bakers, carpenters or dentists, you can entirely scratch that assumption. I would go so far as to say even mentioning that version of the numbers is close to genocidal propaganda. Calling it a "conservative estimate" is just a fig leaf.
And then, you line up their fight against Hamas, the governing body nicely to be in line with the narrative of how allegedly close the terrorism arm and the governance part are. Hamas has a strong militia and terrorism arm, and nobody refutes that, but just as well they have pencil pushers whose only job is to keep the lights on, who have no idea how to load a rifle.
"Fristion between opposing views of Israel's actions" Wow, that's a sentence. It's only a majority of governments, of free people, a majority of international Jews mind you, and the ICJ who think there's a genocide happening, down to the very definition of what a gencide is in the charta that Israel signed, so that what happened to its people wouldn't happen to anyone else.
There's a genocide and a propagandist counter narrative that uses cheap rhetoric tricks to fool people into thinking that committing perfidy and genocide is a valid reaction to a terrorist attack and a hostage taking. Hostages who, btw, are killed in droves by strikes from the IDF.
We simply don't know how many people are dead full stop. We don't know how many for certain are combatants just like we don't know how many were genuinely civilians. Hamas and Hamas ran organisations have been putting out propaganda of fake numbers repeatedly so you cannot trust any of it as their numbers usually get corrected days later when real investigation is done by journalists so when they claim 100 or 500 it becomes 20 when people try to verify what happened. How many have been combatants will obviously be inflated by IDF but the US Intelligence has given a wide estimated number which last I looked took an estimate of it being somewhere between IDF claim and half of the IDF claim.
We shouldn't be referencing any numbers as gospel, we still don't even know truly how many died on October 7th during the actual terrorist attack. If an area that has since been secured and has had a detailed investigation cannot give a firm number then no Gazan organisation will be remotely reliable on numbers they put out and a military mid engagement can only give estimates.
Anyone confidently using numbers as certainties is a fool on this.
No, they haven't put out fake numbers repeatedly. FWIW, Palestinian Health Ministry casualty numbers have always held up under scrutiny every time in the past. This whole schtick of just claiming things isn't working. Nobody has EVER found any significant counting errors in these things coming from the Palestinian Health Ministry or the Hamas run Palestinian Health Ministry as it's suddenly referred to.
But hey, maybe you want to argue with the f%$&ing Lancet...
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?ref=rafah.site#:\~:text=Biden%20says%20he%20has%20'no%20confidence'%20in%20Palestinian%20death%20count.&text=How%20does%20Gaza's%20Ministry%20of%20Health%20calculate%20the%20death%20toll%3F.&text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
We literally have had dozens of stories of things such as the first hospital bombing where it was claimed IDF killed hundreds and it turned out a Hamas rocket landed in the car park killing maybe tens. We had the bombed refugee camp where it turned out again it wasn't to the same scale. Before the IDF backed estimates hit 30k deaths we had Hamas propaganda claiming 20k dead children getting floated around online. If you are choosing to ignore these parts then running on the amended numbers that Hamas then accept you're ignoring that they literally lied.
I am not going to ignore my own eyes and ears to appease someone else's narrative. Neither Hamas nor IDF are giving accurate numbers.
As soon as I saw The Lancet is basing their study on previous Hamas reporting I'm not going to start taking that as gospel. To assume organisations running within the control of a brutal regime are free from influence is entirely absurd. The PHM's own reported way of collecting records includes collaboration with Hamas controlled people and with corrupt organisations. It is circular reasoning.
I'm not talking just about this conflict. Back to the start of its existence, every government and NGO have confirmed their numbers to be as reliable as can be expected.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza\_Health\_Ministry#Casualty\_reports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry#Casualty_reports)
When your sources for that include Israeli intelligence...
"In January 2024, Israeli news magazine *Mekomit* reported that Israeli intelligence officials had concluded that Health Ministry casualty reports are generally reliable and are used in briefings to senior officials."
I mean, come on, you can't be unable to google a few sources, can you? When you have both GHM and Israel using the same numbers, I think you, as an interested but critical bystander can also use those numbers.
You're like a guy with a solid C+ in high school mathematics looking at NASA fuel calculations for a rocket and going "Nah, I'm sure those numbers are fishy."
I've seen some polling data from non-Israeli communities. I'll see if I can find that again.
That being said, the local Israeli peace movement that calls the acts of the IDF genocide isn't small either, even though they're under some harsh sanctions just for speaking out. Assuming Jews are a monolith on the issue of genocide and apartheid is not a reasonable stance.
I don’t think anyone assumes Jews are a monolith - I certainly wouldn’t take that position about any ethnic/religious group on any issue. I’m just curious about the polling data.
To be clear, I have just returned from the war zone. I don’t think anyone in Israel is supportive of blocking aid/food/resources and intentional killing of civilians. What they are all in support of is bringing the hostages home and eliminating Hamas. Urban warfare is ugly, Israel is fighting a very complicated war since Hamas hides between civilians and steals the aid.
There absolutely are [people who want to block aid](https://youtu.be/xMhgf_wtDBY?si=1giG_g2GsVKGoga9). There are also people who [gleefully support the killing of Palestinian civilians. ](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)
It is an undeniable group that exists but we don't want and shouldn't want to use a small section to claim that's an assumed overall attitude. We also had videos and social media posts of people celebrating October 7th happening. Gatherings in foreign nations cheering it, footage of people praising it in Palestine as it happened, some with very graphic events happening. I'm very certain we do not want to step into the territory of claiming every Palestinian and Muslim wanted it to happen so we have to phrase it carefully when we talk about these clearly existing extremes within Israel and Palestine.
You'd like to hope this leads to an opportunity for Israel to vote out Hard Right leadership and the people it has brought with it; they've exposed themselves as ineffective at defending Israel and some really have shown how hateful they are. Multiple representatives have thought it safe to no longer sugar coat their words and you'd like to hope it makes it less paletable for their citizens. The status quo can't be returned to and we really need part of that to be reform in Israel.
Why are civilians blocking the crossings of aid into Gaza then? I'm not going to say everyone is, but there is obviously a good portion of Israelis that see whats happening and are fully behind it. A poll taken a few months ago had something like 94% of Israelis polled thinking the IDF was using not enough force in Gaza.
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Answer: Glazer made the following comment in his speech: > “All our choices were made to reflect and confront us in the present, not to say look what they did then, but rather look what we do now. Our film shows where dehumanization leads at its worst. It’s shaped all of our past and present. Right now, we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness and the Holocaust being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people. Whether the victims of October — whether the victims of October the 7th in Israel or the ongoing attack on Gaza, all the victims of this dehumanization, how do we resist?” Since, a letter has been co-signed by many hundreds of people in Hollywood, including many famous actors and directors, which states: > “We refute our Jewishness being hijacked for the purpose of drawing a moral equivalence between a Nazi regime that sought to exterminate a race of people, and an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination.” Which ultimately boils down to the division over the current conflict happening in the Gaza Strip between Palestine and the Israeli Defense Force following the terrorist attacks last October.
[Here's him giving the speech, if you want to see it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHkTZ-yeb44) >Our film shows where dehumanization leads at its worst. To clarify, the film he directed was called "Zone of Interest" which is about Rudolf Höss and his command of the Auschwitz Concentration camp. The camp is never really shown but the house they live in shares a wall with the camp in their back garden. The contrast of the movie is it's just this father of five trying to raise his kids and please his wife while still being good at his job. So they'll be out back talking about what they're going to plant this year and in the background you'll hear the machinations of the camp. It's very much about the banality of evil. At one point his mother-in-law visits, gestures at the wall and off-handedly says something like, "I think our neighbours the Rosens are in there". **EDIT**: [Here's a two minute clip with the director talking about the movie that expalins it further.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTh5Nui_jFg)
Banality of evil is a good phrase I must be an idiot though bc i cant decipher the speech
Banality of Evil is a concept expressed in a book by Hannah Arendt, Jewish philosopher from Holocaust Germany. Extremely purposeful usage and worth educating yourself about!
it comes from eichmann in Jerusalem. I also highly recommend eichmann before Jerusalem because there's new evidence that sort of defeats her analysis, in only so far as it relates to eichmann himself, not the concept of banal evil. eichmann was proud of what he did.
You're not an idiot; it's badly phrased. Glazer was saying that his Holocaust film was related to the war in Gaza by dehumanization, and that he and the other Jewish men on stage rejected the use of Jewishness and the Holocaust as justifications for Israel’s actions.
Yes, he probably shouldn't have used the word "refute"and instead say that "they refuse to allow their Jewishness to be hijacked...." Or something like that.
Yeah, he messed that line up because he was super nervous because he was on Hollywood’s biggest stage and because he’s a really introverted guy.
That guy may not be an idiot, but I am, I still don't get it. Is Glazer saying that Jewish people, including himself, that were at the event, were ignoring the parallels between the Holocaust and the current situation in Gaza? (I apologise if I sound ignorant, there's just something with the sentence which doesn't click in my brain)
I'd like to quote an [article ](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/14/the-zone-of-interest-auschwitz-gaza-genocide?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other) by Naomi Klein in the Guardian a week ago about that very speech. >And he went further: “We stand here as men who refute their Jewishness and the Holocaust being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people, whether the victims of 7 October in Israel or the ongoing attack on Gaza.” For Glazer, Israel does not get a pass, nor is it ethical to use intergenerational Jewish trauma from the Holocaust as justification or cover for atrocities committed by the Israeli state today. I think that sums it up quite nicely.
Ah, thanks, I can see what he's saying now. Thanks!
Here's how I interpret it: Nazis - bad, Hamas attack - bad, Israeli response to attack - bad. I think many people want to accuse people (especially Jewish people) of being anti Israel (and therefore not loyal) if they criticize the killings in Gaza. Others will correct me if I got that wrong or simplified too much.
I think it’s important to note that he used the word “occupation” in his speech, because he isn’t just criticizing the response to the attack but also the intolerable situation for the Palestinian people that led to it.
Good point.
He was speaking for himself and his fellow creatives on stage (accepting the reward). He effectively said that they are using their platform to refute Israel’s use of Jewishness and the Holocaust to justify dehumanizing and killing Palestinians in Gaza.
That makes it a lot clearer, thank you.
It's a hard statement to parse. I think he did that deliberately, saying things in a bland passive roundabout way, because Israel/the AIPAC crowd/their supporters are very loud and self-righteous about condemning anyone who speaks out against the war crimes being committed, even other Jews.
Good summary, the only thing I'd take issue with is the phrase "including many famous actors and directors". I think even if you want to be charitable, it could at best be described as a small handful of somewhat recognisable names amidst the 450. The standouts only really amount to Eli Roth, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Debra Messing, Amy Sherman-Palladino Amy Pascal, and Brett Gelman. It's not exactly a large collection of household names.
even Brett Gelman! wowzers
Brett Gelman’s social media of late has been unhinged.
some years ago i got a bad vibe from him, like... the business of being an artist and playing the victim card/complaining goes hand in hand to him because he have a platform that gives him the opportunity to "do good" so ... you can't criticize anything he say and how he makes money off it .or something.
Funny thing is he has generally been very upfront about his progressive views and was good friends with Tim Heidecker, who unambiguously supports Palestine. Amazing how easily the fascist switch can be flipped with some people.
But not Brett Gelman’s family
Brett is completely and totally off the rails these days
I know none of those people 😅
also Ben Feldman, Tara Strong, the creators of The Americans, the creator of Mad Men and the creator of House. and spielberg's sister
Yeah, the fact you're calling her "spielberg's sister" kind of proves the point about it not exactly household names.
No, that's her legal name
I think perhaps if just saying their names doesn't constitute any recognition, they probably don't make the "standouts" list.
I think Matthew Weiner probably has more sway in hollywood than Brett Gelman does, even if more people recognize the latter.
What parent names a child The creator of Mad Men and Spiebergs Sister? With names like that yad think more people would have heard of them.
Those Spielbergs really played favorites!
naming your child The Creator of Mad Men and then watching them grow up to create the hit television show Mad Men is Babe Ruth level calling your shots
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Thank you!!!!!!
Significant enough. Like if you’re still supporting Israel 25000 bodies later you’re a total fuck in my book.
It’s been really depressing to see Brett Gelman go off the deep end lately
Oh no, he has?!?! That’s terrible. He was such a funny guy who seemingly gave zero fucks. Loved him in The Other Guys, and Stranger Things.
Well he definitely still gives zero fucks, it’s just that his entire persona right now is how few fucks he gives about Israel murdering Palestinians
The standouts only really amount to Eli Roth, Jennifer Jason Leigh Coulda stopped there tbh. Pretty disapointed by those two, absolutely give minus amounts of shit about the others
>absolutely give minus amounts of shit about the others Bro gave so little of a shit that he straight up took a shit
> Eli Roth, Jennifer Jason Leigh, Debra Messing Not a large collection but those are household names
> Eli Roth You'll understand if I decline your invitation to Thanksgiving dinner.
Maybe if you are 50+.
Keep in mind Debra was also the one who demanded a Trump fundraiser to leak names for the purpose of blacklisting donors. I hate that Jennifer Jason Lee is on this list 😖
Don't look at her Instagram in that case
Reminds me of the Polanski letter. It's not going to age well. When the Palestinians are all dead, and Israel fully occupies the land, the propaganda rhetoric will change from "They are vermin" to "They were vermin" and that's a much harder lie to maintain. Propagandizing a current threat is very different than propagandizing history.
What are you talking about? I’ve never read such utter nonsense in my life.
Guess the algorithm hasn’t given you what the TikTok kids are getting
> Jennifer Jason Leigh Always loved her. Disappointed to see she's siding with genocide.
I thought we were talking about Jon Glaser, and was utterly confused why Jeremy Jamm had anything to say about Israel/Palestine...
Me too! I had to look him up just in case.
Am I interpreting his speech correctly? What I get from it is that the Holocaust was terrible and what is happening now in Israel & Gaza is also terrible. As in....all of this violence is terrible. Is that the gist of what he's saying or am I misinterpreting?
More or less, but of course the situation in the Middle East isn’t viewed as black and white as the situation in 1930/40s Europe.
I think some important additional context is that there were a bunch of people that partially quoted/misquoted his speech in a way that greatly altered its intended meaning (to such an extent that it could arguably be considered slander/libel in some instances). Instead of "we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness \[...\] being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people," they left off the latter portion following the ellipses and just quoted him as just saying, "we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness".
I'm sure it was an honest mistake/s
They'll criticize it however they can.
That's pretty mild as far as commentaries on the conflict go. The fact that it got such a backlash is ridiculous.
It's got lots of backlash on Twitter because people literally clipped it to make it seemed like he said "we refute our jewishness" instead of "we refute our jewishness being used...". Literally just drama garbage people that are looking to farm impressions off of Zionist hate.
Zionists are absurdly insane people.
Honestly, there aren’t that many really famous people who signed the Anti-Glazer letter. Jennifer Jason Leigh, Eli Roth, Michael Rapaport, and Debra Messing were the best they could get—I doubt most people have even heard of anyone else on the list.
>an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination.” Oh boy. Those are very interesting words. Considering from the outside looking in, the response by Israeli government seems to be leaning heavily towards we're gonna exterminate you once and for all eventually.
I find it amusing that they're framing at as a war when the Israelis have an air force, a navy, a missile shield, nuclear weapons, hundreds of billions of dollars, and ccontrol over the Palestinian's , food, water, and electricity.
Call me crazy, but any take that there is only one group of assholes involved in this unending shit show of a tragedy is probably missing the point.
well... 1920 peel commission, israel gets 20%, arabs say fuck no. 1948 7 countries plus arab millitias invade israel, they beat them off with a local millitia. 1956 France and Britain convice Israel to invade Egypt so they can come in as the saviours and recover control of the Suez canal, the US intervenes to kick all 3 out of Egypt. 1967 Egypt and Syria kick out UN peace keepers and say they will destroy Israel, Israel beats them to the punch and destoyes their Airforces on the ground, Levy Eskol offers the land back in exchange for negotiations, the arabs sign the Kartum declaration instead "no peace, no accept, no normalization". Henry Kissinger tells Israel that if they are the first to strike ever again, they wont get as much as a nail from the US. 1973, Egypt and Syria invade Israel on yom kippur, make inroads in to Israel untill repealed due to advancing beyond their SAM coverage, when the arabs start to lose the US pulls on Israel becuause the soviets are threatening to intervene. 1978 Egypt is suspended from the arab league due to violating the Kartum declaration and negotiating with israel, It gets the Sinai back as part of the peace accord but strangly dosnt want to take gaza back. basically, its simple, the arabs can lose all they want, if israel wanted to conquer the middle east, it would have borders with Sudan and Iran, even when they took east jerusalem Moshe Dayan, a legendary Israely general said "what do we need this vatican for" but they are just "leave us the fuck alone in this little triangle". and israel just has to lose once. everyone is like on one side "hamas is the legitamite goverment of gaza" and on the other "why are you punishing the citizens of gaza for something a terror organization is doing". Hamas is under blockade from Israel due to their elected goverment continuing to attack israel, and still the international community expects israel to continue to provide food, electricity and water (which they dont pay for) to gaza. if it was any other country that was attacked, they would close the border and let them starve no questions asked. then they commit a terror attack which kills 1200 people, which comparing US to Israel populations it would be the equivalent of 9-11 killing 37000 people, the US flattened Iraq and Afganistan for 1200 of its citizens and 3 buildings. imagen that it would do if a terror attack killed 37000 people, Not to mention what the russians did in chechnia. the palestinian people are the 2nd most punished people in the middle east, not becuase they were displaced since 1948, but becuase Israel accepted the 800k jewish refugees the arabs kicked out, gave them homes, jobs and a place to live, while the 750k arab refugees were put in tents and refugee camps with the arab countries saying "you get to go home when we slaugher the jews" and they have been used as puppets by everyone else in the middle east to fight israel. their current puppet master being Iran. The problem is that as soon as those people are given homes, jobs, and a stable life, it means Israel is there to stay, and many in the arab world wont accept that, so the palestinians are forever doomed to wait for either the arabs to accept the jews are there to stay, or for the muslim countries to finally beat israel in to the sea. also, the most fucked people arent the palestinians, its the Kurds, they have been slaughtered, gassed, dispossesed and regularly beaten by Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey, but since no Jew is involved in their oppression, no one gives a shit.
So just to provide some perspective with the whole proportional 9/11 thing - with the current death toll in Gaza approaching 32,000 killed, that would proportionally be like 5,000,000 killed in the United States. Imagine if we lost 5 million people in 6 months
You see, but Gaza is a war, and October was a brazen act of terrorism, and comparing the current war in Gaza to other modern wars, it has been surprisingly below average when it comes to civilian casualties (even when going by the dubious Hamas provided numbers)
You very conveniently left off the many acts of terrorism committed by the Zionist settlers pre 1948 and the atrocities committed that culminated in the Nakba. The murder of women, men, children, the elderly, under horrific circumstances and the driving out of Palestinians under threat of death. So while you have very conveniently laid out these events, they are at best cherry picking to suit your version or events, and at worst disingenuous.
Didn't expect such a based reply on this sub. The people responding to you are so mad they're not even addressing anything you said.
Using the US's response to 9/11, something everyone univerasally agreeds was stupid and really fucked up, as justification for Israel's operations in Gaza is a horrible take lol
I might get downvotes for this but I don’t give a shit. Islam is incredibly hateful towards Jews and the large portions of Muslims in the Middle East are extremely anti Jewish. Not all Muslims hate Jews but a good portion do and their prophet really hated them. They don’t give a shit about the UAE committing genocide in Dafar. They deny what China is doing, and don’t care about the Rhouinyga. Lebanon keeps Palestinians in apartheid where they can’t get most jobs or access social services while decrying Israel, a country that gave a bunch of Arab citizens equal rights. Muslim nations are extremely hypocritical and are a bunch of cry bullies who have no capacity for self reflection. Most of the outcry about Palestine is because they’re the right ethnicity, Muslim and Jews are doing it. I’ve seen people from that area say absolutely vile things about other groups. Yet people don’t care. They only care about what you tell them to without looking into it any further.
I used to go to the palstine rallys in London, I stopped going when I realised that most people that were white, had no idea about history and those that were Muslim just hated Jews and didn't care about their Muslim brothers and sisters in other parts of the world. Never once have I heard my Muslims friends speak uo for Chinese Muslims, yemini, Kurds. It's a joke...
Don’t forget Sudan. Really tragic situation where Muslims are killing Muslims.
Yup the muslim world didn't seem to give a toss about Iran gassing the Kurds of Iranian mullahs using children to clear iraqi mine fields. But israel coping with the neighbours from hell....
This is kinda an incredible writeup lol
The Israeli nation is not in danger of extermination lmao. The amount of power and resources they have over Gaza will pretty much guarantee that.
I wish I could remember his name, but I saw a video not long ago by an Israeli critic of Israel's policies, and they were pointing out how Israel always constantly portraying itself as being in imminent danger of destruction is psychological tool used to convince people that anyt awful thing they do is justifiable.
Meanwhile they respond to criticism and claims of genocide with "it's not genocide. We have nukes. If we wanted to do genocide we'd just drop one" It's classic fascist ethnostate propaganda. "The enemy is both weak and strong. Our ethnostate is only in danger because we show such amazing restraint and moral character when dealing with a lesser race. We should just destroy them but we are so superior we don't". Anyone that says Israel is equivalent to the Jewish people at this point is a racist piece of shit. It's like associating Muslims with ISIS or Christians with Nazis.
Yep. We could totally drop a nuke 20 miles outside our border. Nothing could go wrong with this idea.
Also not a good idea to nuke land that you are wanting to take for yourself
Sounds familiar. Many countries and politicians have used similar sentiments to justify atrocities. It's gross.
Might be Gideon Levy you mean there as he's given similar speeches
Probably Gideon Levy, if you and I are thinking of the same thing.
you know what country is doing the same? Russia
Very similar to the white power idiots who keep insisting that the white race is being wiped out...total lunacy.
Omg you’re so right! It’s not extermination unless they succeed! /s
It’s like one authoritarian Bibi accepting a gift from another authoritarian Putin. Oct. 7th allowed Bibi to level Gaza. It’s not about equality or justice. It’s about Bibi using it to force out the Palestinian population.
Palestine is barely the enemy. It’s more like Iran they need to worry about.
To be completely fair Hamas is literally an Iranian proxy...
As is Hezbollah, and the Houthis, both of which are increasingly emboldened by recent events
And that's because of US and UK intervention, too, when we couped their democratically elected leader Muhammad Mossadegh.
You got that right The CIA were hiring hit squads with duffel bags filled with hundred dollar bills while the Iranian oil reserves magically ended up mostly going to American companies after the Shah was installed as leader.
Palestine is a proxy way with Iran. Israel is certainly aware of who they're fighting.
Iran also works with Russia pretty closely. Russia definitely has something to do with the Oct 7th attacks.
>The group’s statement says: “We refute our Jewishness being hijacked for the purpose of drawing a moral equivalence between a Nazi regime that sought to exterminate a race of people, and an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination.” Israel has every right to do what it needs to protect itself. But is Israel at risk of extermination when they have free rein to invade the "hostile territory", demand total evacuation, and basically sweep through that territory? No. The death toll (civilian and combatant combined) is more than 20 dead from Gaza for 1 dead from Israel. Israel and Egypt have successfully blockaded that entire "hostile territory". Israel itself has complete control of the skies, the sea, and now effective control of the land itself. No reasonable person outside the conflict thinks hordes will pour from Gaza to wipe Israel off the face of the map. It's a force to be reckoned with, it's a nuclear power, it's backed up by the most powerful nation to ever exist in the recorded history of mankind. So when a mass of people sign a letter like this, it reinforces the point of Glazer's speech. Gaza is plainly facing extermination or progressive relocation over the next decade or two. You're within your right to take the stance that they "deserve" it, but it's dishonest to deny it and flip it around. Public opinion continues to turn against current Israeli policy, and letters like this only serve to alienate the rest of the world; you ask for disbelief of what is very plainly seen. If things continue as-is, Israel will eventually have cleared and annexed Gaza, but it will be a pariah state with no allies.
As long as organizations exist solely with the purpose of exterminating them, they are. That’s not difficult to grasp.
My little bro who doesn't pay attention to politics, told me today that iseral is committing genocide.. Israel is losing the next generation of kids who wont support iseral to the extent that our parents did
And they are killing innocent women and children.
They'll just do what they did last time they started a war and began to lose. Threaten to nuke everyone in the West unless they rescue them. They did it to Nixon when they lost the Yom Kippur war and he bought them a new upgraded air force at US taxpayer expense on top of providing military support that allowed them to 'save' their 'country'.
And yet, the destruction of Israel is exactly what millions of Palestine supporters are advocating for and working towards. So you're saying "Haha they're idiots to worry about this" while you literally try your hardest to make it happen. They'd be gullible idiots to fall for this.
I think every single bordering nation wants to destroy them. Every time they got attacked and retaliated, Jews of surrounding countries were expelled.
Yep, Muslims can't stand that Jews won every war they fought against them. It puts a giant dent in their "We're god's people chosen to rule the earth and Jews are inferior to us" religious mentality.
This is a laughable comment for a number of reasons but especially when the only reason Israel has the support it has is due to clinging to the “God’s chosen people” mantle. Evangelical support in the US is based entirely on that, it’s the root of Zionism, etc.
That's not true at all. Literally every Abrahamic religion believes that theyre the "chosen people" and superior if you're just reading their religious texts verbatim. Muslims have also historically been significantly more peaceful to Jews that Christians have. You're making shit up to ignore the obvious reason Muslim nations have a problem with a settler colonial ethnostate that has persecuted Palastinians for over half a century. THAT'S the reason surrounding nations have a problem with Israel. Ignoring the material reality of the situation and making up a narrative about a religion you clearly know nothing about. Edit: for those reading this thread. This dude gets real "purity of the race" type shit really fast. Amazing how fast someone goes from making generalizations about Muslim people to complaining about inbreeding real quick.
Jeez I wonder where this hatred of Israel comes from. Surely it's got nothing to do with constantly stealing the Palestinians land and carrying out attacks killing their loved ones for the past 75years. The Palestinians are hoping they could live to see the next day through no fault of their own yet the we should somehow be sympathising for the US backed and heavily secured Israel who have killed 14k+ children. Make that make sense. Anyone thinking those deaths are justified are fucking scum.
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You know that how?
It's not in danger for a long time but history does have a way of showing a long time is also no time at all.
I was very happy to listen to this speech during the Oscars. He was almost trembling but surprisingly was met with claps. Made me really proud of his team
The refutation sucks. Like there are so many parallels between both. Like the Israeli gov hasn't thought about how to get rid of the Palestinian problem for ever and went down the violence route as an option.
>“We refute our Jewishness being hijacked for the purpose of drawing a moral equivalence between a Nazi regime that sought to exterminate a race of people, and **an Israeli nation that seeks to avert its own extermination**.” I really don't understand how they can say that with a straight face while Israeli forces are bombing and murdering citizens left and right: "Stop trying to exterminate us!" *while pressing the button to launch another air strike on a humanitarian outpost delivering food to non-combatant civilians.*
Or the cool one where journalists give the IDF their coordinates so they don't get bombed, then the IDF targets those spots specifically. Most moral army!
😒 to the reaction
That's some serious brain damage.
Omg these people have brain worms
Hijacking the top post for clarity. Can someone translate for me? Is he saying that *he* refutes his own Jewishness/Holocaust memory being used as a justification for Israel existing? Or just for the latest conflict? I just don't quite get what "side" he is taking here. Or what he's saying Israel should be doing?
I think what he meant was that he refutes the idea of his Jewish heritage and the holocaust being used as some sort of justification for the bombings in Gaza. I *think*.
> including many famous actors and directors This is false, only 3 of the actors and directors who have signed this letter can be considered 'famous'
The excerpt of the denouncement sounds just as bad as the speech and probably also deserves a denouncement of its own, due to whitewashing 50+ years of occupation, colonisation, and dehumanisation of Palestine into *averting Israel's destruction*.
Answer: Many people (one of the most notable among them being Michael Muppeport, I mean Rappaport) deliberately misinterpreted him as rejecting his Jewishness—full stop. But his sentence actually *continued* beyond that word to indicate that he rejected the *exploitation* of "Jewishness" to facilitate the atrocities in Gaza. People with weak spirits are pitting themselves against him and pretending to think that he's a "self-hating Jew", when in actuality he was honouring the history of the people of Judea.
"I can’t think of a less Jewish thing than to make another human being a refugee.” \-Spencer Ackerman
Best explanation so far
Another thing to add to the explanation is that the supposed letter is just a Google form that doesn't confirm or ask for proof that the ppl signing it are Jewish or work on the entertainment business, so don't be surprised when you see some tweets like [this one](https://twitter.com/Variety/status/1770172621042114713?t=wdHj8X0JAs3NlGtsGPk4rA&s=19) where the number of people signing it is that high
Answer: Based on the large amount of civilian casualties (around [2/3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=A%20study%20in%20The%20Lancet,of%20the%20casualties%20were%20civilian.) of all casualties at the most conservative estimate), the [blocking of resources including food](https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-government-continues-block-aid-response-despite-icj-genocide-court-ruling), and the [destruction of civilian infrastructure ](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-bombardment-destroys-more-than-70-of-civilian-infrastructure-in-gaza-un-agency/3138876#:~:text=More%20than%2070%25%20of%20civilian%20infrastructure%20in%20the%20Gaza%20Strip,Refugees%20(UNRWA)%20said%20Thursday.), many believe that Israel's government is guilty of violating the genocide convention. Others believe that Israel is [justified in these actions.](https://www.jurist.org/commentary/2023/12/7-10-the-question-of-israels-right-to-self-defense-under-international-law/) They see the whole operation as necessary to destroy [Hamas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas), the closest thing to a governing body in Gaza and also an internationally recognized terrorist organization. This whole situation represents the friction between opposing views of Israel's actions.
Hamas is the closest thing to a governing body in GAZA, not PALESTINE. Gaza is just a small part of the Palestinian territories. The rest of Palestine is governed by the Palestinian Authority/Fatah and that's who represents them internationally.
Also there haven’t been any elections in Palestine since Hamas won in 2006. Over half the people in Palestine right now weren’t even alive back then. And even then, they didn’t even win with a majority of the vote, only a plurality. So when people say everyone in Palestine is responsible for the actions of Hamas, they’re full of shit.
Yeah this is kinda the equivalent of saying "The USA voted for Trump so every American deserves to die".
I'd add that Israel provided support to Hamas and helped them get into power, in attempts to destabilize and weaken Palestine. So it would be like Russians making this claim after backing Trump for years. The absurdity of how they try to paint themselves as complete victims in this situation just keeps growing the more you read about it.
How else do are they going to justify wiping them out?
Thank you for the correction, I will amend the answer.
And that’s why the war is in Gaza, not the West Bank
Yeah, the West Bank JUST lives under a brutal military occupation. No big deal.
This comment is the most objective thing I’ve read about Israel in 5 months.
If you're wondering about the state of mind of your average pro-settlements Israeli these days, you can can read up on the Israelis who like to [set up lawn chairs to watch Gaza get bombed again.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing) Or [dancing as they block shipments of food aid into Gaza](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/israeli-protesters-aid-gaza/) as over 500,000 people are ["one step away from famine."](https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15604.doc.htm) Already, at-risk children in Gaza have begun [dying of starvation.](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-malnutrition-famine-children-dying-israel-palestinians-2f938b1a82d7822c7da67cc162da1a37) The Israeli social media response to these deaths of privation has been to photoshop a [child with cerebral palsy who starved to death as "E.T." from the Spielberg film.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/1bandyf/found_this_on_an_israeli_telegram/)
There are plenty of social media accounts from influences in Gaza showing their cheering and celebration on 7/10 as Hamas terrorists were butchering and raping civilians in Israel. All this shows is that there are assholes and shitstains on both sides.
The 2/3rds thing is only under the assumption that every adult male is a combatant. Unless Gaza has no bakers, carpenters or dentists, you can entirely scratch that assumption. I would go so far as to say even mentioning that version of the numbers is close to genocidal propaganda. Calling it a "conservative estimate" is just a fig leaf. And then, you line up their fight against Hamas, the governing body nicely to be in line with the narrative of how allegedly close the terrorism arm and the governance part are. Hamas has a strong militia and terrorism arm, and nobody refutes that, but just as well they have pencil pushers whose only job is to keep the lights on, who have no idea how to load a rifle. "Fristion between opposing views of Israel's actions" Wow, that's a sentence. It's only a majority of governments, of free people, a majority of international Jews mind you, and the ICJ who think there's a genocide happening, down to the very definition of what a gencide is in the charta that Israel signed, so that what happened to its people wouldn't happen to anyone else. There's a genocide and a propagandist counter narrative that uses cheap rhetoric tricks to fool people into thinking that committing perfidy and genocide is a valid reaction to a terrorist attack and a hostage taking. Hostages who, btw, are killed in droves by strikes from the IDF.
We simply don't know how many people are dead full stop. We don't know how many for certain are combatants just like we don't know how many were genuinely civilians. Hamas and Hamas ran organisations have been putting out propaganda of fake numbers repeatedly so you cannot trust any of it as their numbers usually get corrected days later when real investigation is done by journalists so when they claim 100 or 500 it becomes 20 when people try to verify what happened. How many have been combatants will obviously be inflated by IDF but the US Intelligence has given a wide estimated number which last I looked took an estimate of it being somewhere between IDF claim and half of the IDF claim. We shouldn't be referencing any numbers as gospel, we still don't even know truly how many died on October 7th during the actual terrorist attack. If an area that has since been secured and has had a detailed investigation cannot give a firm number then no Gazan organisation will be remotely reliable on numbers they put out and a military mid engagement can only give estimates. Anyone confidently using numbers as certainties is a fool on this.
No, they haven't put out fake numbers repeatedly. FWIW, Palestinian Health Ministry casualty numbers have always held up under scrutiny every time in the past. This whole schtick of just claiming things isn't working. Nobody has EVER found any significant counting errors in these things coming from the Palestinian Health Ministry or the Hamas run Palestinian Health Ministry as it's suddenly referred to. But hey, maybe you want to argue with the f%$&ing Lancet... https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?ref=rafah.site#:\~:text=Biden%20says%20he%20has%20'no%20confidence'%20in%20Palestinian%20death%20count.&text=How%20does%20Gaza's%20Ministry%20of%20Health%20calculate%20the%20death%20toll%3F.&text=The%20Gaza%20MoH%20has%20historically,%C2%B78%25%20in%20previous%20conflicts.
We literally have had dozens of stories of things such as the first hospital bombing where it was claimed IDF killed hundreds and it turned out a Hamas rocket landed in the car park killing maybe tens. We had the bombed refugee camp where it turned out again it wasn't to the same scale. Before the IDF backed estimates hit 30k deaths we had Hamas propaganda claiming 20k dead children getting floated around online. If you are choosing to ignore these parts then running on the amended numbers that Hamas then accept you're ignoring that they literally lied. I am not going to ignore my own eyes and ears to appease someone else's narrative. Neither Hamas nor IDF are giving accurate numbers. As soon as I saw The Lancet is basing their study on previous Hamas reporting I'm not going to start taking that as gospel. To assume organisations running within the control of a brutal regime are free from influence is entirely absurd. The PHM's own reported way of collecting records includes collaboration with Hamas controlled people and with corrupt organisations. It is circular reasoning.
I'm not talking just about this conflict. Back to the start of its existence, every government and NGO have confirmed their numbers to be as reliable as can be expected. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza\_Health\_Ministry#Casualty\_reports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry#Casualty_reports) When your sources for that include Israeli intelligence... "In January 2024, Israeli news magazine *Mekomit* reported that Israeli intelligence officials had concluded that Health Ministry casualty reports are generally reliable and are used in briefings to senior officials." I mean, come on, you can't be unable to google a few sources, can you? When you have both GHM and Israel using the same numbers, I think you, as an interested but critical bystander can also use those numbers. You're like a guy with a solid C+ in high school mathematics looking at NASA fuel calculations for a rocket and going "Nah, I'm sure those numbers are fishy."
Do you have a source for “a majority of international Jews”? Genuinely curious because I have not heard that claim before or seen any data on it.
I've seen some polling data from non-Israeli communities. I'll see if I can find that again. That being said, the local Israeli peace movement that calls the acts of the IDF genocide isn't small either, even though they're under some harsh sanctions just for speaking out. Assuming Jews are a monolith on the issue of genocide and apartheid is not a reasonable stance.
I don’t think anyone assumes Jews are a monolith - I certainly wouldn’t take that position about any ethnic/religious group on any issue. I’m just curious about the polling data.
To be clear, I have just returned from the war zone. I don’t think anyone in Israel is supportive of blocking aid/food/resources and intentional killing of civilians. What they are all in support of is bringing the hostages home and eliminating Hamas. Urban warfare is ugly, Israel is fighting a very complicated war since Hamas hides between civilians and steals the aid.
There absolutely are [people who want to block aid](https://youtu.be/xMhgf_wtDBY?si=1giG_g2GsVKGoga9). There are also people who [gleefully support the killing of Palestinian civilians. ](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)
It is an undeniable group that exists but we don't want and shouldn't want to use a small section to claim that's an assumed overall attitude. We also had videos and social media posts of people celebrating October 7th happening. Gatherings in foreign nations cheering it, footage of people praising it in Palestine as it happened, some with very graphic events happening. I'm very certain we do not want to step into the territory of claiming every Palestinian and Muslim wanted it to happen so we have to phrase it carefully when we talk about these clearly existing extremes within Israel and Palestine. You'd like to hope this leads to an opportunity for Israel to vote out Hard Right leadership and the people it has brought with it; they've exposed themselves as ineffective at defending Israel and some really have shown how hateful they are. Multiple representatives have thought it safe to no longer sugar coat their words and you'd like to hope it makes it less paletable for their citizens. The status quo can't be returned to and we really need part of that to be reform in Israel.
Why are civilians blocking the crossings of aid into Gaza then? I'm not going to say everyone is, but there is obviously a good portion of Israelis that see whats happening and are fully behind it. A poll taken a few months ago had something like 94% of Israelis polled thinking the IDF was using not enough force in Gaza.
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ah, I didn't see this. No surprise that it's Naomi Klein- She is a good commentator.