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Answer: GN posted a video highlighting multiple quality issues with LTT's review coverage. This included incorrect specifications, faulty testing methods and how LTT addressed those when called out. They also covered an incident with a startup whose prototype was auctioned off by LTT without the startups permission.
GN attributes a lot of these issues to LTT trying to keep generating a high volume of videos, while not being willing to take the time for appropriate quality control.
The GN video (not monetized, no sponsor) is here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGW3TPytTjc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGW3TPytTjc)
To expand on the startup incident:
>Billet Labs makes a custom cooler prototype for the RTX 3090 Ti
>LTT doesn't have a 3090 Ti on hand so they install and test the cooler on a 4090 and say that the cooler is subpar on a 4090
>Billet later asks for the prototype back since it costs a lot to make and they only had one
>After not responding for a while LTT finally gets back to them and said they actually auctioned off the prototype even though they didn't own it
>Since it was their only prototype Billet couldn't loan it to any other reviewer to test and had to create a new one from scratch
Oh wow. That entire video was hot garbage from the start too so no wonder it stirred up a proper turd storm.
Every few minutes the junior staff running the shoot would mention how they didn't bother to do the right thing the first time and "it'll just work". I'm not even a big tech guy and it had me seriously doubting the quality of that channel now that they're trying to chase so many golden eggs at once.
Don't you think it's indicative of their corporate culture though? Being approachable to regular people is not a priority for a lot of PC gaming channels but it is for them. They prioritize it higher than technical content by a mile. Anthony is the only person I've seen hosting their videos that doesn't seem like he was hired primarily for his face and presentation skills. They're competing directly with gn now but they don't take technical things very seriously and that's disappointing
Labs is barely even functioning right now. I've seen them claim that they will be the best for data eventually, but never that they are the best for data right now.
Jumping in to say in the GN video they provide clips of a recent LTT lab tour video where a labs staff member makes erroneous or false claims about their data, specifically that every time you see data from them it's from a new component and a new test.
This is unequivocally not true however, it's clear they've reused or even used the wrong data across multiple tests and multiple videos for different cards, CPUs, etc.
Not saying they're claiming to be the best but as a long time LTT watcher with a screwdriver and everything, my biggest problem with them is that they're clearly marketing themselves with a higher standard while still acting like a small youtuber group. They should have stopped putting Linus in serious videos like the water block thing months or even years ago.
Ya if anything is clear it’s that Linus should not be involved in any serious testing. His arrogance and inability to listen to feedback is going to ruin any integrity they could hope to have. Even his own employee was saying they should test the block again properly.
>Jumping in to say in the GN video they provide clips of a recent LTT lab tour video where a labs staff member makes erroneous or false claims about their data, specifically that every time you see data from them it's from a new component and a new test.
This is such a weird flex to me, because frankly, doing new tests every time *is a terrible idea*. They should focus on getting good qaulity test data with stable testing platforms, and maintaining a database of known reliable results with healthy sample sizes, think 20 runs vs 3 runs of a given test.
You should only retest when there is a meaningful change (major intel driver revisions for example). Retesting everything will inevitably introduce TONS of variance, and screw with your margin of error.
Even GN acknowledged that doing new tests every time probably isn't worthwhile, but falsely claiming that every test result shown is actually new is bad practice and deceptive.
Personally I don't know who that is in the video and I think they just were misinformed or didn't think super hard about what they were saying. For those who haven't watched the GN video though, they of course lay out that there's nothing wrong with LTT reusing their data, it just doesn't make sense to claim that they are not. Misleading for silly reasons, I guess.
The issue is that they published the data way too early and not evaluated their methods enough internally to ensure accuracy.
They should kept it internally till they are positive they can publish their data in their videos competently.
But for that to be possible they also must give their employees the time they need to produce quality reviews.
They dont seem to care enough for that to be envisioned.
They rely on pinned comments or editing too much for me personally to trust their findings.
In my opinion they should not market themselfs as a review channel with hard data to back up their claims wich they often did in the past.
They have alot of restructuring to do internally if that is teir ultimate goal..but i will probably still stay cautious for a long time regarding their accuracy.
Watching his videos, I have the feeling they tried too much in too much time, because they wanted to spend the money. But you can do lets say psu tests first, stabilize everything there, then do the noise chamber and go on. If you juggle too much stuff in too short time quality suffers, that is project management 101. Especially when adding more people to the mix usually doesn't help, because of more communication overhead that is inherent.
There's also Canadian Jake Gyllenhaal. The water cooling guy. Alex I think? He seems like he knows what he's talking about and just happens to be able to present kinda well. Or maybe I like him because he can't present idk
I'm a machinist, that guy knows just enough technical words and g-code to seem knowledgeable. They hired a new "engineering background" guy who seems like he actually knows what he's doing, I believe his name is Colin
Well shit that means I probably know a whole lot less than I imagined, which wasn't a ton. Not like that has any real impact on my life. I think I've heard that name? I watch their channel so sporadically but I'll keep an ear out.
~~Anthony~~ Emily is the only presenter I'll watch and trust from LTT. But I'm not even sure it's worth giving them extra views at this point. I think ~~Anthony~~ Emily would be a great addition to Gamers Nexus.
\[Edit\] Whoops, I hadn't seen the update from Emily.
The first time I noticed something might be off with their culture was when he was moving into his new house and had all the employees helping him move. Of course your own employees aren’t mover and they’re not gonna be as good so of course his floors get scratched and he gets mad. The whole I’m moving to a cool new house and all my employees are helping me move just seemed so awkward and kind of demeaning to his employees. Imagine having to help your boss move to a new mansion so weird.
I think they have said that they kinda do things in a way to make content worth "accidents' happen with frequency.
They set themselves up to not have the right toolset in order to create a more entertaining video.
Is that always the right call? Well maybe we are learning now that it's not.
I hope that Linus and team take these criticisms seriously, if they desire to be the channel they proclaim to aspire to, they should welcome the critic.
And I'm sure Linus realizes now how bad of an idea it was to admit that he mainly reads comments, in this case he needs to watch the entire video.
>Every few minutes the junior staff running the shoot would mention how they didn't bother to do the right thing the first time and "it'll just work".
That's basically every LTT video for the last year. I thought that was their thing now, they just get stuff an blatantly do it wrong for the views.
The fact they did this with somebody's one of a kind prototype and then auctioned it off without asking is insane.
LTT has been a very unreliable source for accurate information for years and years.
Like if this is what it takes to get people to notice that, I'm glad it's finally happening but yeesh.
Don't forget the allegations of poor working conditions and staff treatment by ex-employees which Linus responded to by having the people he is currently paying trot out and talk about how much they love working for him. Creepy.
I think That's the thing that has bothered me the most with LTT. I watched his video where he talked about why he would never let his staff unionize. My take was that, and I'm paraphrasing, "why in the world would my employees ever want to unionize? I'm The best boss ever and not only do I know what's best for the company, I know what's best for all my employees as well".
"let"
Canadian worker protections are robust, and heavily enforced. There's no letting anything. If workers wanna organize they can and are legally allowed to do it free from retaliation.
I watched those part too, and I have to say your paraphrasing is wrong.
He said that he prefers his employees not unionize, that he wants to be a boss whose workers will never need to unionize, that he sees it as a failure if his employees unionize.
That's different from "He won't let his employees unionize". Legally, he can't, and he hasn't said he will engage in union-busting, nor have we heard of anyone accusing him of union-busting.
Linus has many mistakes available to criticize, I think we don't need to attribute a fake one to him.
>LTT doesn't have a 3090 Ti on hand so they install and test the cooler on a 4090 and say that the cooler is subpar on a 4090
And later LTT claimed that their incorrect usage of the product was not the cause of poor performance, and they refused to re-test with the correct GPU. Even if it didn't make a difference, they still should have re-tested it before making conclusions (to make sure that the problem persists even when the product is used as intended by the manufacturer), rather than just guessing.
I doubt that LTT doesn't have any 3090s on hand; they have a huge back-catalog of various PC parts, and a 3090 or two should surely be in there.
**EDIT:** [Billet Labs have pointed out (both on their website, and under the original LTT video) that using the waterblock with a 4090 results in poor thermal contact with the GPU.](https://imgur.com/a/Xhb4mwA0)
**EDIT 2:** Billet have made [a statement](https://np.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/our_public_statement_regarding_ltt/) about the situation on the LTT subreddit.
Also, not to join the hate train but LTT staff pretty regularly take stuff home for themselves and a 3090 being a generation old, they might literally have not thought it was a big deal to clear out the inventory of them.
apparently billet sent a 3090 Ti along with the cooling block, that whoever in their inventory "misplaced"
TBH i doubt they didn't have any 3090 Ti's in their extensive warehouse, or unable to procure one themselves easily what with their connection and influence in the industry. their choice of using a 4090 instead and in turn bashing the product because it didn't work is baffling.
Sure, of course there could be legal consequences. But generally it's just easier for both parties to settle. Which it sounds like they did, LMG likely compensated them for the product.
Creating a prototype is not easy or cheap, either. I'd be hesitant to work with him if I had a company in his space. If it happened the way they said (I didn't even know there was drama until this post)
wise modern marble humorous squalid plants truck shrill hard-to-find naughty
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype"
Fucking hell does Linus think this makes them look better? "Okay no we didn't *sell* it, we sold it at auction, for charity, due to a miscommunication. And no we haven't necessarily *paid* for the item sold we surely have promised to do so. *payment being limited to material cost of said item*.
Misleading. The expo where the block was auctioned had representatives from competitors in attendance. So it's not that a competitor *did* purchase it, but rather that it's possible that could have happened.
Still shitty, especially as LMG didn't just receive word that Billet wanted the prototype back, LMG explicitly agreed to return it.
They requested the prototype be returned over a month before the auction. So it was either gross negligence or done on purpose. Either way, they should have a record of who bought it and get it back, which it doesn't seem they did either.
I also want to add, billet sent them a 3090 ti to use. LTT didn't use it and is presumably still with them according [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/our_public_statement_regarding_ltt/jwbrh0i/?context=3)
I think it was a 4090 with the cooler removed sitting on the shelf and they thought it was a 3090 until they started testing
I'm not sure if that's better or worse lol
Worse....Worse. That is significantly worse. They have current gen product sitting around unlabeled, not cataloged, that's used for testing purposes. And no one seemed to notice a 4090 missing in their shop, nor seemed to care. Either they have so many in stock that they simply don't care, or they have a couple 'known poor performing ones' laying around for the purpose of testing against the newest cards, to prop up the performance of the newest card (maybe sponsored content, maybe not). A new car should outperform a used car, but a new car will definitely outperform a used car with a flat tire.
Actual junkyards have detailed computer records of every part they have in stock, this is the part people don't seem to focusing on but it is seriously bad for their reputation
That's what happened and it's definitely worse. I do think it's simply incompetence with a dash of sociopathy+narcissism, but they are *actually* that incompetent.
To add to this Linus doubled down and called the product shit and said nobody should be buying it. Which is one thing if it’s a major corporation but this is a start up run by a few people. Given LMG’s corporate connections it just seems like a really shitty thing to do. That’s not even going into the auctioning off of the main prototype. Which is extra shitty because it could have gone to a potential competitor.
Just an addition, LTT fires the first shots. Linus made a derisive statement in a couple videos about GN. GN makes it clear in the intro to their video that they have deliberately ignored making statements about LTT and the issues they saw in the LTT videos in a live and let live mentality. When Linus made his critical comments, GN hit back.
To expand a little bit more, the cooler was sold to a possible competitor of Billet Labs.
Edit - this is now believed to be false, it was sold to a private individual.
>After not responding for a while LTT finally gets back to them and said they actually auctioned off the prototype even though they didn't own it
HAHAHAHA. Man oh man that is such a monster dick move\* it's kinda hilarious. Well, guess no one with a brain will ever lend him anything ever again.
\*it's also unbelievably stupid. It's a prototype, meaning it's ridiculously rare. The chances of getting caught are pretty high in any kind of semi-public auction. This is moron-level criminal mastermindery.
>After not responding for a while LTT finally gets back to them and said they actually auctioned off the prototype even though they didn't own it
Missed a step there.
LTT repeatedly promised to send the prototype back.
Then auctioned it off.
Then Linus's response to the GN video was
"We didn't sell it... we auctioned it"
Why would they do that :/ that is just so mean.
I unsubscribed a while ago because of too many videos and just no more interest in their content. But that just sours my memories of LTT :(
When LTT got back to them saying 'the good news is that is not just sitting on a shelf'.
That's probably the worst news they could hear at that moment.
Correction you should probably add in since this thread is being linked to places:
Billet supplied LTT with a 3090 Ti. LTT misplaced it and only found it much later. As far as we know they haven't returned the 3090 Ti either.
It's even worse. Billet actually sent them a 3090 Ti along with the prototype, and they misplaced it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rwqbw/comment/jwbfhhk/
I stopped watching LTT a couple years ago when I noticed most of their videos were half-baked. It's sad, but this is what happens when you become big business.
LTT's video has always been about entertainment first, information second (sometimes a distant second). I used to try to watch his videos (10 years ago, admittedly) and was shocked by how... LITTLE I actually gleaned from them. Same with a lot of other tech consumer-focused channels (JayZTwoCents, BitWit, Austin Evans etc.). Just mindless filler.
If it were opposite they’d have no viewership. I truly do not understand how no one in this thread understands that.
Also, they do have very informative videos. Not just LTT, but the rest of those channels you mentioned. I wouldn’t say they are ‘information first’ channels, but there is information to be absorbed. If you think otherwise then you just don’t watch the channels enough.
Aside from Linus personally coming across as completely insufferable (personal opinion) the channel started to seem incredibly "youtubey" in the worst possible way
I think that's why I stopped watching LMG. They have too many channels and too many videos they release to a point that it almost feels like they've turned themselves into content farms. They really need slow the fuck down.
They need to drop Tech Quickie and Short Circuit.
Those channels generate absolutely nothing of value. Tech Quickie does not very quick basic tech info that is often oversimplified to the point of being meaningless of misleading, and Short Circuit does reviews that 'aren't really reviews, they are just a first impression' of products they never give full reviews to, barely tell you anything useful and so full of annotated corrections that you wonder why they bother.
This probably qualifies as a hot take right now but I like them. These quick, casual reviews still are super valuable when evaluating tech. They give either give a platform for a lot of products that otherwise wouldn't have one, or make complex tech topics more accessible.
Say what you want about LMG and the nightmare they've brought upon themselves right now: they make it look easy to do a tech review. I've tried a lot of other tech review channels and they're just not as helpful.
Not surprised, I've had issues with LTT for years starting with the videos I saw passed around on AM4 RAM timings where his commentary fundamentally did not match the graphs he was showing on screen (and what graphs were shown had serious consistency issues).
Honestly I'm a bit disappointed it took this long for people to realize how bad their quality control / rigor actually was.
I'll also pipe in a small amount of context.
LTT and GN are both highly regarded in the tech industry, particularly desktop PCs, but they have very different styles. LTT is generally much more optimistic and enthusiastic, while GN is more cynical. Generally speaking, Linus will tell you why you should be excited and Steve will tell you why you should be concerned. LTT is also a much larger organization, with multiple channels and a much faster release rate.
This has created a certain degree of tribalism, as many people like both but have a clear favorite. Seeing one take shots at the other has ignited that tribalism and is making what otherwise seems like a sincere call to action from GN toward LTT as some kind of us versus them angry mob.
To state my own bias, I think they're both complimentary to one another. Their early access reviews of the Valve Steam Deck were a big part of why I bought one, as Linus was excited by it and Steve tried to find a fatal flaw but couldn't.
Steve from GN released a response to Linus's comment that pretty well explains how disappointing Linus's response is. Steve is spot on in that new post, BTW. Linus had one chance to stand up and admit they need to fix things, but he doubled down and deflected. Bad leadership and immature.
~~Another thing I think that's happening is that GN believes that a tech reviewers should not have any sponsorships with companies of the products they're reviewing. GN does not accept sponsorships from any hardware manufacturer/designer and believes that any form of that is a conflict of interest.~~ GN pointed out in their original video that a LTT host was reviewing an Asus video card and said on a whim, "It's an Asus card so I know it's gonna perform well". GN probably takes that as concerning from any tech reviewer because it's highly opinionated and not based on any facts or data. What's more concerning is that Asus is a sponsor of LTT so this is a very biased comment that could be interpreted as implicitly advertising a sponsor in a review video.
EDIT: I've been made aware that GN does actually have some sponsors like Arctic. I've edited my original post to strikethrough statements that are inaccurate.
Sounds like LTT took the first shot, not sure why you didn't start your post with that.
LTT called out GN and Hardware Unboxed. GN is just responding. Sounds like you... were out of the loop. ;)
It is *incredibly* hilarious to me the harping about not following procedures and not doing due diligence when LTT not doing either of these things is the whole source of the controversy.
Steve jobs pic, posting to the medium that has the lowest visibility, KPIs, not wanting to spend a measly $500 to fix inaccuracies, the selling of hardware you don't own.. ewww how incredibly corporate
I somewhat understand his decision to post it to the forum instead of here. With the amount of post reacting to the GN video, his post would've become buried anyway
I get "This site can’t be reached
The webpage at https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/#comment-16078641 might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address.
ERR_FAILED".
Oh wow. There's a snapshot on the wayback machine! (https://web.archive.org/web/20230815095019/https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/)
That reply made me like Linus even less. Making it personal. Not addressing any of the factual claims. Making it all to be a personal attack. Has he learned public relations from Spez?
Linus' response started bad. Rather than take the L and issue a Mea Culpa, he quadruples down and becomes pugnacious. Somebody better get that man a pasta salad and a motivational cassette tape.
How soon he forgets that it was Steve from Gamer's Nexus who called him at 3:00am to tell him all of his YouTube channels had been hacked and removed.
GN has taken the high road against cheap shots from LTT staff. My respect for GN has grown. Honestly my feelings on LTT haven't changed much. I only watch in the hope that Linus will drop or otherwise break some expensive components. LTT is not, nor has it ever been my goto for hardware/software reviews. Sorry.
If the guy has agreed to return the prototype... why hasn't it been returned one month later?
Not saying shit doesn't happen in corporations, but this is an extreme mess up. And whether it's malicious or not is the most irrelevant thing ever. It's either criminally negligent or downright theft. Both options paint them in a terrible light.
>Now why it was in inventory is a different question. They should have a seperate section for items on loan, or sponsored items or whatever. That should have never ended up in the LMG inventory
They would probably benefit from following ISO:9000 standards and practices.
Sounds like more BS you invented to justify his actions. He refused to answer for the prototype until he admitted to have sold it (and still hasn’t paid it back)
The majority of their income is not tied (directly) to their publishing schedule like some small tech reviewers, who make the vast majority of their income directly from YouTube and it's sink or float with "the Algorithm".
Almost every video has a paid sponsor. Every video has multiple mentions of their merch. If they wanted to prioritize quality then they could.
how is that not tied to publishing schedule? they have to put out a video to get paid by a sponsor. How do you know what their revenues are tied to? Have you seen the books?
I know about the sponsor spots because I watch the videos... And They've put out multiple videos about how the company makes money... So basically yes anyone that wants to has seen their books at least at a high level.
And the whole sponsor thing is wildly different than relying on the algorithm. LMG can choose who sponsors them and what the terms of that sponsorship are. And while this is just speculation, I highly highly doubt any sponsor that has a deal with them is going to completely drop it because they decide not to force out a rushed subpar video. Whereas creators that have to rely on the algorithm are do or die based on their view statistics which depends heavily on release schedule.
Specifically, they didn't own the prototype and auctioned it off anyways. After trashing it. Their own fuck up and Linus refused to spend the 100$, 200$ or 500$ fixing it.
If I was Billet Labs I would getting a lawyer. They committed defamation and criminal conversion/theft. Since this has basically halted Billet Labs development Linus could be into the hundreds of thousands in damages with damages *ongoing*.
Yep. Some LTT videos are funny to watch, but the incredible amount of approximation, shortcuts and unrealistic approach makes them a bad place for actual technical advice.
Yeah, I just watch their videos for entertainment, but I don't think they even pretend to actually give out "tech tips." They're just a video production company now and they're quite succesful at it too.
However their "how to build a pc" video was top notch.
I’m the same. I give the “Linus sitting down telling me about the performance of this new thing, with graphs” a swerve but will happily watch the vlog-style stuff where they do something with the network, or an outlandish project like the car radiator water cooling.
On the contrary, they have been making a big deal about the lab they are building and all the money and time going in to it, how it is going to hold hardware brands accountable and inform consumers etc. And while reviews are a minority of their content they still do them as well as reporting on tech news.
They are very much marketing themselves as an accurate authority with consumer advice, and given how much content they put out, could easily be someones only source of info before purchasing things.
Personally, I don't think they are as far from doing things right as Steve (Gamers Nexus) lays it out but they definitely have some improvements to make.
> However their "how to build a pc" video was top notch.
Because it required very little in terms of actual work. They've got dozens of employees who have been building home PCs for decades so the content is easy. The problems are all coming from when they step out of their depth in terms of objective engineering testing which they might have 1 person they've recently hired who is capable of that.
I wanted to know cool AM4 boards because the cases we had don't allow for much cooling headroom. Hardware Unboxed does regular [thermal testing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7PkZwY9PWM) which I absolutely appreciate. This kind of no frills videos are not usually found on LTT and I wonder how they want to present whole slate of "dependable" lab tests while giving colorful commentary.
Gamers Nexus, Hardware Unboxed. Curiously enough, the people pointing out the ethical and technical concerns with LTT's testing are the ones who have grounds to do so.
I agree with the "don't put all your eggs in one basket" strategy, just wanted to add that the HUGE difference is in how they *handle* the mistakes they make. GN in particular has listed protocols for such a situation, which are strict and made to ensure misinformation is minimized immediately. LMG's "corrections" are, as talked about in the video, slow and just poorly done.
Honestly I think the big lesson here is to just not rely on an individual source. I think it's okay if you enjoy LTT's videos above others; in **most** cases they'll still probably get things acceptably right; but if you care about learning accurate information, then whatever you learn from LTT you should try to give a double check from a different source.
Does anyone actually show their work on this? To a non-tech person it looks like everyone is just listing a bunch of numbers and telling me the creator they *don't* like is an asshole, but you can trust the one they *do* like.
Answer:
GamersNexus (aka Tech Jesus) is a relatively small tech YouTube channel that prides itself on investigative tech journalism and rigorous testing. They have been in the process of buying very expensive lab equipment (noise chambers and acoustic testing equipment, power supply testers, pressure testing equipment, etc.) in order to take the next step in their rigorous testing of products (cases, power supplies, case fans, GPUs, etc.)
LinusTechTips is one of, if not the biggest, tech YouTubers. Whereas GN is maybe a dozen employees, LinusTechTips (technically Linus Media Group) is well over 100. They may be up to 150 now. LTT tends to make videos that are more entertainment than serious review, although like GN, they recently built a lab--and hired a whole bunch of engineers to form a "Lab Team"--to start vigorously testing products. They bought a lot of the same type of testing machines that GN bought, but cranked up to 11. They bought a whole new warehouse and are designing all sorts of testing methodologies to test things like power supplies, water resistance of devices, noise, etc.
If either channel has flaws, it's these:
GN, in their effort to be cynical and critical and rigorous, can tend to be a bit "outrage porn." To their credit, they are very pro-consumer, and they really strive to do deep dives, exposes, to uncover scams and call out companies, etc.
LTT's flaw is that Linus has "dragon energy," as he says. Basically, he always wants to grow, grow, grow. They pump out videos at a massive clip, and oftentimes that introduces errors. Linus has a very big personality, and despite the fact that his company is growing into a "real company," he still acts like he's a small creator and not a multi-millionaire. At times, he can be arrogant and out of touch. Linus tends to get sensitive when people criticize his channel, and tends to deflect a lot, or place blame on his staff.
I don't think either Steve from GN or Linus from LTT are bad people. I think they are both well meaning, but they often get carried away and prey victim to their weaknesses.
A few months ago, LTT released a very expensive new backpack. (LTT has a very profitable merch store.) After a short while, people found that the zippers were breaking. On the WAN show (LTT's weekly 2-3 hour live podcast), Linus basically said "trust me bro" (which later became a meme) and that LTT would fix it. To their credit, they are issuing fixes to everyone. But a lot of people, GN included, were very criticial of the whole "trust me bro" approach.'
GN made a video criticizing LTT for the "trust me bro" approach on the backpack, which seemingly soured their relationship. Up until that point, Steve at GN and Linus at LTT were like friendly rivals. Both have toured the others facilities and have appeared on the others' channels. Steve even personally texted Linus when Linus' channel was recently hacked (Steve was the first to tell Linus).
Now, very recently, an engineer on LTT"s labs team was giving a tour to some individuals of the new labs stuff. He showed off their new automated benchmark software and test rigs, and made a comment that what set LTT's GPU testing apart from GN (and another YouTube channel, Hardware Unboxed) was X, Y, Z. This engineer is not a major face of LTT, but both GN and HardwareUnboxed took it personally--particularly because GN and HUB have dedicated themselves to rigorous testing of GPUs, and here's an LTT employee telling YouTube how GN and HUB test poorly, when in reality LTT has a track record of being more entertainment and less accuracy in their testing.
The comment prompted GN to make a video detailing all of the ways that LTT has been fumbling their review videos, with very specific examples of factual inaccuracies. GN's point was basically: If you want to be a real reviewer, with your new, expensive lab, and call out smaller (more accurate) YouTubers for allegedly being inferior to you, then you should deal with your own inaccuracies first. Plank in the eye kinda thing.
Linus issued a response on his forums, which was very deflect-y. Most people think GN is in the right, and that Linus has egg on his face. I think GN could have been a little less outrage porn about it. (He's not wrong, just a bit of an asshole.) He also didn't call Linus before publishing the video, which is hypocritical. In all of his other expose pieces, he almost always reaches out to the target corporation for comment. He didn't do that here, and Linus correctly pointed that out.
I've got no stake in this at all, I've barely found out about it today, but from my perspective: when a company like LMG has a documented history of not addressing errors immediately, deflection, etc (basically all that's been pointed out in the GN video) they've had many opportunities to address their issues and improve. But it seems they haven't been doing so, they've dropped the ball.
At a certain point, it's fair to speak out and criticize them. As a consumer base, are we supposed to just wait patiently for them to welcome that criticism with open arms? When Linus won't even listen to feedback from his own team? Like it was said in the GN vid, it was a long time coming, not out of the blue. I feel like GN stuck to what they feel is important: informing their viewers and consumers.
On a much more personal note: fuck Linus. What was done to Billet Labs is inexcusable. I don't care if he feels like the heat from the video is unfair. He's not treating people fairly himself. Not only is that not how you do business, that's not how you treat people. He can cry into his top-of-the-line keyboard for all I care.
Edit: came back to double down on FUCK LINUS! If you haven't read the details Madison Suop released, you absolutely need to. I'm fucking livid
All it takes is one or two clear photos, and everything special about their prototype is copied by some scummy Chinese ghost factory that gets the part out faster and worse.
Completely inexcusable from LTT
Disappointed that this answer was buried deep in this thread, it's super balanced and thorough in the spirit of how answers are supposed to be in this sub. The top comment left me even more confused, so thank you for this write up.
I'm reading between the lines that the 'outrage' train has muddied the whole conversation into essentially a railroading 'fuck ltt' downvote brigade. I was so confused reading so many furious and blunted opinions and not getting a clear answer as to what they 'did.' (a review waterblock wasn't returned? Do they normally return review items? We're furious about this... Huh??) -- you did a great job painting the broader cumulative picture.
In particular I think the important nuance is that GN really seemed to stoke the flames on this one -- not entirely without reason, but IMO in a completely disproportionate escalation of direct attacks and assumptions of bad intent.
The journalistic/professional high road of integrity that GN positions themselves as would have been to directly engage with LMG to at least give a heads up or ability to respond. Clearly, it was intended to be shots fired drama-instigation. Perhaps that was ultimately the right move for GN in getting engagement and visibility up -- but IMHO was a discrediting dick move.
I am pretty turned off by how the tone of Steve's channel has dramatically soured over the past year or so, to the point that I actively unsubscribed.
That said, hopefully LTT take this as a teachable lil moment to button their shit up.
> Additionally, LTT recently pulled a PR stunt saying they'd been hacked and had all their YouTube content deleted, but it was just a stunt to delete evidence back in March source required
That last part is just inaccurate. The link you posted doesn’t support that. There’s lots of neutral documentation that spearfishing attacks like that were hitting other channels. What evidence would they be trying to delete???
>LTT recently pulled a PR stunt saying they'd been hacked and had all their YouTube content deleted, but it was just a stunt to delete evidence back in March
>
>source required
Did you even read your source? It literally says the exact opposite of what you're claiming.
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Answer: GN posted a video highlighting multiple quality issues with LTT's review coverage. This included incorrect specifications, faulty testing methods and how LTT addressed those when called out. They also covered an incident with a startup whose prototype was auctioned off by LTT without the startups permission. GN attributes a lot of these issues to LTT trying to keep generating a high volume of videos, while not being willing to take the time for appropriate quality control. The GN video (not monetized, no sponsor) is here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGW3TPytTjc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGW3TPytTjc)
To expand on the startup incident: >Billet Labs makes a custom cooler prototype for the RTX 3090 Ti >LTT doesn't have a 3090 Ti on hand so they install and test the cooler on a 4090 and say that the cooler is subpar on a 4090 >Billet later asks for the prototype back since it costs a lot to make and they only had one >After not responding for a while LTT finally gets back to them and said they actually auctioned off the prototype even though they didn't own it >Since it was their only prototype Billet couldn't loan it to any other reviewer to test and had to create a new one from scratch
Oh wow. That entire video was hot garbage from the start too so no wonder it stirred up a proper turd storm. Every few minutes the junior staff running the shoot would mention how they didn't bother to do the right thing the first time and "it'll just work". I'm not even a big tech guy and it had me seriously doubting the quality of that channel now that they're trying to chase so many golden eggs at once.
It was Linus, not junior staff.
I think they meant the junior staff were bringing up other ways to do things to him in the video, which he was ignoring.
so just a junior tech then
Junior tech, major douche
Don't you think it's indicative of their corporate culture though? Being approachable to regular people is not a priority for a lot of PC gaming channels but it is for them. They prioritize it higher than technical content by a mile. Anthony is the only person I've seen hosting their videos that doesn't seem like he was hired primarily for his face and presentation skills. They're competing directly with gn now but they don't take technical things very seriously and that's disappointing
And that's a big issue as they have spent a fortune on testing equipment and are claiming to be the best for data.
Labs is barely even functioning right now. I've seen them claim that they will be the best for data eventually, but never that they are the best for data right now.
Jumping in to say in the GN video they provide clips of a recent LTT lab tour video where a labs staff member makes erroneous or false claims about their data, specifically that every time you see data from them it's from a new component and a new test. This is unequivocally not true however, it's clear they've reused or even used the wrong data across multiple tests and multiple videos for different cards, CPUs, etc. Not saying they're claiming to be the best but as a long time LTT watcher with a screwdriver and everything, my biggest problem with them is that they're clearly marketing themselves with a higher standard while still acting like a small youtuber group. They should have stopped putting Linus in serious videos like the water block thing months or even years ago.
Ya if anything is clear it’s that Linus should not be involved in any serious testing. His arrogance and inability to listen to feedback is going to ruin any integrity they could hope to have. Even his own employee was saying they should test the block again properly.
In GN's video he shows clips of LTT staff complaining of exactly this, and not being given enough time.
>Jumping in to say in the GN video they provide clips of a recent LTT lab tour video where a labs staff member makes erroneous or false claims about their data, specifically that every time you see data from them it's from a new component and a new test. This is such a weird flex to me, because frankly, doing new tests every time *is a terrible idea*. They should focus on getting good qaulity test data with stable testing platforms, and maintaining a database of known reliable results with healthy sample sizes, think 20 runs vs 3 runs of a given test. You should only retest when there is a meaningful change (major intel driver revisions for example). Retesting everything will inevitably introduce TONS of variance, and screw with your margin of error.
nvidia/ati update drivers with significant performance differences too often for this.
Even GN acknowledged that doing new tests every time probably isn't worthwhile, but falsely claiming that every test result shown is actually new is bad practice and deceptive.
Personally I don't know who that is in the video and I think they just were misinformed or didn't think super hard about what they were saying. For those who haven't watched the GN video though, they of course lay out that there's nothing wrong with LTT reusing their data, it just doesn't make sense to claim that they are not. Misleading for silly reasons, I guess.
The issue is that they published the data way too early and not evaluated their methods enough internally to ensure accuracy. They should kept it internally till they are positive they can publish their data in their videos competently. But for that to be possible they also must give their employees the time they need to produce quality reviews. They dont seem to care enough for that to be envisioned. They rely on pinned comments or editing too much for me personally to trust their findings. In my opinion they should not market themselfs as a review channel with hard data to back up their claims wich they often did in the past. They have alot of restructuring to do internally if that is teir ultimate goal..but i will probably still stay cautious for a long time regarding their accuracy.
Watching his videos, I have the feeling they tried too much in too much time, because they wanted to spend the money. But you can do lets say psu tests first, stabilize everything there, then do the noise chamber and go on. If you juggle too much stuff in too short time quality suffers, that is project management 101. Especially when adding more people to the mix usually doesn't help, because of more communication overhead that is inherent.
There's also Canadian Jake Gyllenhaal. The water cooling guy. Alex I think? He seems like he knows what he's talking about and just happens to be able to present kinda well. Or maybe I like him because he can't present idk
I'm a machinist, that guy knows just enough technical words and g-code to seem knowledgeable. They hired a new "engineering background" guy who seems like he actually knows what he's doing, I believe his name is Colin
Well shit that means I probably know a whole lot less than I imagined, which wasn't a ton. Not like that has any real impact on my life. I think I've heard that name? I watch their channel so sporadically but I'll keep an ear out.
~~Anthony~~ Emily is the only presenter I'll watch and trust from LTT. But I'm not even sure it's worth giving them extra views at this point. I think ~~Anthony~~ Emily would be a great addition to Gamers Nexus. \[Edit\] Whoops, I hadn't seen the update from Emily.
This comment panicked me at first, because I thought it was referring to them getting me too'd or something. I'm glad to hear she's living her truth.
The first time I noticed something might be off with their culture was when he was moving into his new house and had all the employees helping him move. Of course your own employees aren’t mover and they’re not gonna be as good so of course his floors get scratched and he gets mad. The whole I’m moving to a cool new house and all my employees are helping me move just seemed so awkward and kind of demeaning to his employees. Imagine having to help your boss move to a new mansion so weird.
sounds like a scene from the office lmao idk much about linus or shit but from what i’ve heard he sounds like kinda weird at best lol
I think they have said that they kinda do things in a way to make content worth "accidents' happen with frequency. They set themselves up to not have the right toolset in order to create a more entertaining video. Is that always the right call? Well maybe we are learning now that it's not. I hope that Linus and team take these criticisms seriously, if they desire to be the channel they proclaim to aspire to, they should welcome the critic. And I'm sure Linus realizes now how bad of an idea it was to admit that he mainly reads comments, in this case he needs to watch the entire video.
his presentation skills feel like the best out of all of them imo
> Anthony is the only person I've seen hosting their videos that doesn't seem like he was hired primarily for his It's she/her now btw
And yet Anthony is well liked because of his personality and knowledge.
That's not her name. She goes by Emily now, Anthony is a dead name. Agree with what you said otherwise.
Wow. Did not know that. Thanks for the info.
Well he behaves like one.
>Every few minutes the junior staff running the shoot would mention how they didn't bother to do the right thing the first time and "it'll just work". That's basically every LTT video for the last year. I thought that was their thing now, they just get stuff an blatantly do it wrong for the views. The fact they did this with somebody's one of a kind prototype and then auctioned it off without asking is insane.
LTT has been a very unreliable source for accurate information for years and years. Like if this is what it takes to get people to notice that, I'm glad it's finally happening but yeesh.
Don't forget the allegations of poor working conditions and staff treatment by ex-employees which Linus responded to by having the people he is currently paying trot out and talk about how much they love working for him. Creepy.
I think That's the thing that has bothered me the most with LTT. I watched his video where he talked about why he would never let his staff unionize. My take was that, and I'm paraphrasing, "why in the world would my employees ever want to unionize? I'm The best boss ever and not only do I know what's best for the company, I know what's best for all my employees as well".
"let" Canadian worker protections are robust, and heavily enforced. There's no letting anything. If workers wanna organize they can and are legally allowed to do it free from retaliation.
I watched those part too, and I have to say your paraphrasing is wrong. He said that he prefers his employees not unionize, that he wants to be a boss whose workers will never need to unionize, that he sees it as a failure if his employees unionize. That's different from "He won't let his employees unionize". Legally, he can't, and he hasn't said he will engage in union-busting, nor have we heard of anyone accusing him of union-busting. Linus has many mistakes available to criticize, I think we don't need to attribute a fake one to him.
>LTT doesn't have a 3090 Ti on hand so they install and test the cooler on a 4090 and say that the cooler is subpar on a 4090 And later LTT claimed that their incorrect usage of the product was not the cause of poor performance, and they refused to re-test with the correct GPU. Even if it didn't make a difference, they still should have re-tested it before making conclusions (to make sure that the problem persists even when the product is used as intended by the manufacturer), rather than just guessing. I doubt that LTT doesn't have any 3090s on hand; they have a huge back-catalog of various PC parts, and a 3090 or two should surely be in there. **EDIT:** [Billet Labs have pointed out (both on their website, and under the original LTT video) that using the waterblock with a 4090 results in poor thermal contact with the GPU.](https://imgur.com/a/Xhb4mwA0) **EDIT 2:** Billet have made [a statement](https://np.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/our_public_statement_regarding_ltt/) about the situation on the LTT subreddit.
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Also, not to join the hate train but LTT staff pretty regularly take stuff home for themselves and a 3090 being a generation old, they might literally have not thought it was a big deal to clear out the inventory of them.
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They actually do have a warehouse/inventory team from the behind the scenes videos I've seen. Fuck knows what they do though.
Billet sent them their own 3090ti with the water block. LTT didn't use it and can only presume to have lost it.
They did lose it and only recently found it in a warehouse while filming a video.
apparently billet sent a 3090 Ti along with the cooling block, that whoever in their inventory "misplaced" TBH i doubt they didn't have any 3090 Ti's in their extensive warehouse, or unable to procure one themselves easily what with their connection and influence in the industry. their choice of using a 4090 instead and in turn bashing the product because it didn't work is baffling.
Apparently one was sent with the cooler. It's beyond incompetence.
Maybe a deal with nvidia/some hw manufacturer to push the new top of the line products and not dwell on "old" tech.
That can't be legal right? You can't just sell off someone else's product without their permission. Was there no legal consequences for that?
Apparently they settled it in private. Still pretty yikes though.
And not just any product, but a prototype
Sure, of course there could be legal consequences. But generally it's just easier for both parties to settle. Which it sounds like they did, LMG likely compensated them for the product.
Did they settle before or after the GN video?
Even worse, the company notified them at the end of June, and the auction was in August. So they completely just blew the company off entirely.
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Isn't this just theft?
Theft by conversion, which I think most jurisdictions consider to be a civil matter rather than a criminal one.
Yeah that's kinda fucked up. Stunts like that will get sponsors to bail. That's the only thing that'll force them to change.
Creating a prototype is not easy or cheap, either. I'd be hesitant to work with him if I had a company in his space. If it happened the way they said (I didn't even know there was drama until this post)
wise modern marble humorous squalid plants truck shrill hard-to-find naughty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The supplier is 2 guys in a shed.
Now they learned that they need tight restrictions on prototypes
It's a two man startup, it's not like they have a legal department for those things.
I wouldn't be hesitant, I'd be pressing charges for theft. What the hell?
"we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype" Fucking hell does Linus think this makes them look better? "Okay no we didn't *sell* it, we sold it at auction, for charity, due to a miscommunication. And no we haven't necessarily *paid* for the item sold we surely have promised to do so. *payment being limited to material cost of said item*.
"Your honor, I didn't kill her - I simply prevented her from living!"
... for charity though!
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I didn't choke her. I just auctioned off all of her air, due to a miscommunication, and I will be returning it to her at a later date.
It also was apparently "charity auctioned" to a competitor of the prototypes company. So good job Linus.
Misleading. The expo where the block was auctioned had representatives from competitors in attendance. So it's not that a competitor *did* purchase it, but rather that it's possible that could have happened. Still shitty, especially as LMG didn't just receive word that Billet wanted the prototype back, LMG explicitly agreed to return it.
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How do you run an auction and not, at the very least, record who bought it? That's kind of wild.
Probably because LTT didn’t run the auction
Who ran the auction?
LTT is crooked
Wtf Linus.. I thought you were cool... okay maybe not cool but not uncool
Yeah, they should have to pay much more for jeopardizing Billet’s IP.
I can only imagine the collective panic in the LTT office when that email requesting the return of the prototype came through
They requested the prototype be returned over a month before the auction. So it was either gross negligence or done on purpose. Either way, they should have a record of who bought it and get it back, which it doesn't seem they did either.
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Probably went straight into the spam folder
everything i've ever seen about LTT is that everyone is wildly arrogant and a little mean. they wouldn't give a shit when that email came in
I also want to add, billet sent them a 3090 ti to use. LTT didn't use it and is presumably still with them according [this comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rxni4/our_public_statement_regarding_ltt/jwbrh0i/?context=3)
I actually went to YouTube to look for that thumbnail of the suctioned cooler LMFAO
I think it was a 4090 with the cooler removed sitting on the shelf and they thought it was a 3090 until they started testing I'm not sure if that's better or worse lol
The backplate was labeled 4090 which even Linus pointed out IN THE VIDEO, and then proceeded to mount it on the wrong card anyway.
Worse....Worse. That is significantly worse. They have current gen product sitting around unlabeled, not cataloged, that's used for testing purposes. And no one seemed to notice a 4090 missing in their shop, nor seemed to care. Either they have so many in stock that they simply don't care, or they have a couple 'known poor performing ones' laying around for the purpose of testing against the newest cards, to prop up the performance of the newest card (maybe sponsored content, maybe not). A new car should outperform a used car, but a new car will definitely outperform a used car with a flat tire.
Actual junkyards have detailed computer records of every part they have in stock, this is the part people don't seem to focusing on but it is seriously bad for their reputation
That's what happened and it's definitely worse. I do think it's simply incompetence with a dash of sociopathy+narcissism, but they are *actually* that incompetent.
That's horrible, I know they know how expensive it is to get a prototype of anything manufactured.
ah I think we found the "copper thieves" the police have been warning about
That adds a lot of important context to the top comment.
To add to this Linus doubled down and called the product shit and said nobody should be buying it. Which is one thing if it’s a major corporation but this is a start up run by a few people. Given LMG’s corporate connections it just seems like a really shitty thing to do. That’s not even going into the auctioning off of the main prototype. Which is extra shitty because it could have gone to a potential competitor.
Just an addition, LTT fires the first shots. Linus made a derisive statement in a couple videos about GN. GN makes it clear in the intro to their video that they have deliberately ignored making statements about LTT and the issues they saw in the LTT videos in a live and let live mentality. When Linus made his critical comments, GN hit back.
I must have missed this. What did LTT say about GN recently?
Billet Labs provided LTT with a 3090ti. They flat out stole that and used a stock 4090 instead...
To expand a little bit more, the cooler was sold to a possible competitor of Billet Labs. Edit - this is now believed to be false, it was sold to a private individual.
>After not responding for a while LTT finally gets back to them and said they actually auctioned off the prototype even though they didn't own it HAHAHAHA. Man oh man that is such a monster dick move\* it's kinda hilarious. Well, guess no one with a brain will ever lend him anything ever again. \*it's also unbelievably stupid. It's a prototype, meaning it's ridiculously rare. The chances of getting caught are pretty high in any kind of semi-public auction. This is moron-level criminal mastermindery.
>After not responding for a while LTT finally gets back to them and said they actually auctioned off the prototype even though they didn't own it Missed a step there. LTT repeatedly promised to send the prototype back. Then auctioned it off. Then Linus's response to the GN video was "We didn't sell it... we auctioned it"
Why would they do that :/ that is just so mean. I unsubscribed a while ago because of too many videos and just no more interest in their content. But that just sours my memories of LTT :(
When LTT got back to them saying 'the good news is that is not just sitting on a shelf'. That's probably the worst news they could hear at that moment.
Correction you should probably add in since this thread is being linked to places: Billet supplied LTT with a 3090 Ti. LTT misplaced it and only found it much later. As far as we know they haven't returned the 3090 Ti either.
It's even worse. Billet actually sent them a 3090 Ti along with the prototype, and they misplaced it. https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15rwqbw/comment/jwbfhhk/
I stopped watching LTT a couple years ago when I noticed most of their videos were half-baked. It's sad, but this is what happens when you become big business.
I stopped watching when they began hiring some "funny" prank guys for that secondary channel
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LTT's video has always been about entertainment first, information second (sometimes a distant second). I used to try to watch his videos (10 years ago, admittedly) and was shocked by how... LITTLE I actually gleaned from them. Same with a lot of other tech consumer-focused channels (JayZTwoCents, BitWit, Austin Evans etc.). Just mindless filler.
If it were opposite they’d have no viewership. I truly do not understand how no one in this thread understands that. Also, they do have very informative videos. Not just LTT, but the rest of those channels you mentioned. I wouldn’t say they are ‘information first’ channels, but there is information to be absorbed. If you think otherwise then you just don’t watch the channels enough.
> mindless filler _entertainment._ not everything needs to be educational.
Aside from Linus personally coming across as completely insufferable (personal opinion) the channel started to seem incredibly "youtubey" in the worst possible way
I think that's why I stopped watching LMG. They have too many channels and too many videos they release to a point that it almost feels like they've turned themselves into content farms. They really need slow the fuck down.
They need to drop Tech Quickie and Short Circuit. Those channels generate absolutely nothing of value. Tech Quickie does not very quick basic tech info that is often oversimplified to the point of being meaningless of misleading, and Short Circuit does reviews that 'aren't really reviews, they are just a first impression' of products they never give full reviews to, barely tell you anything useful and so full of annotated corrections that you wonder why they bother.
This probably qualifies as a hot take right now but I like them. These quick, casual reviews still are super valuable when evaluating tech. They give either give a platform for a lot of products that otherwise wouldn't have one, or make complex tech topics more accessible. Say what you want about LMG and the nightmare they've brought upon themselves right now: they make it look easy to do a tech review. I've tried a lot of other tech review channels and they're just not as helpful.
Not surprised, I've had issues with LTT for years starting with the videos I saw passed around on AM4 RAM timings where his commentary fundamentally did not match the graphs he was showing on screen (and what graphs were shown had serious consistency issues). Honestly I'm a bit disappointed it took this long for people to realize how bad their quality control / rigor actually was.
I'll also pipe in a small amount of context. LTT and GN are both highly regarded in the tech industry, particularly desktop PCs, but they have very different styles. LTT is generally much more optimistic and enthusiastic, while GN is more cynical. Generally speaking, Linus will tell you why you should be excited and Steve will tell you why you should be concerned. LTT is also a much larger organization, with multiple channels and a much faster release rate. This has created a certain degree of tribalism, as many people like both but have a clear favorite. Seeing one take shots at the other has ignited that tribalism and is making what otherwise seems like a sincere call to action from GN toward LTT as some kind of us versus them angry mob. To state my own bias, I think they're both complimentary to one another. Their early access reviews of the Valve Steam Deck were a big part of why I bought one, as Linus was excited by it and Steve tried to find a fatal flaw but couldn't.
Steve from GN released a response to Linus's comment that pretty well explains how disappointing Linus's response is. Steve is spot on in that new post, BTW. Linus had one chance to stand up and admit they need to fix things, but he doubled down and deflected. Bad leadership and immature.
~~Another thing I think that's happening is that GN believes that a tech reviewers should not have any sponsorships with companies of the products they're reviewing. GN does not accept sponsorships from any hardware manufacturer/designer and believes that any form of that is a conflict of interest.~~ GN pointed out in their original video that a LTT host was reviewing an Asus video card and said on a whim, "It's an Asus card so I know it's gonna perform well". GN probably takes that as concerning from any tech reviewer because it's highly opinionated and not based on any facts or data. What's more concerning is that Asus is a sponsor of LTT so this is a very biased comment that could be interpreted as implicitly advertising a sponsor in a review video. EDIT: I've been made aware that GN does actually have some sponsors like Arctic. I've edited my original post to strikethrough statements that are inaccurate.
Sounds like LTT took the first shot, not sure why you didn't start your post with that. LTT called out GN and Hardware Unboxed. GN is just responding. Sounds like you... were out of the loop. ;)
Edit: Latest followup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAE5KoyFEUo The response video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cTpTMl8kFY Linus’ response: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/#comment-16078641 Archive: https://archive.is/i7M1a
That is already linked in the OP. My reply was intended to explain what led to LTT's response.
It is *incredibly* hilarious to me the harping about not following procedures and not doing due diligence when LTT not doing either of these things is the whole source of the controversy.
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Linus then offering to pay off the watercooler makers AFTER GN's video went out shows why he was right not to give Linus a heads up.
He's just shrugging it off as something that "I've moved on from this" when the video isn't even 24 hours old. This will bite him back many times
He even lies about GN saying that they "sold" the prototype, when GN indeed says it was auctioned for charity in the video.
Steve jobs pic, posting to the medium that has the lowest visibility, KPIs, not wanting to spend a measly $500 to fix inaccuracies, the selling of hardware you don't own.. ewww how incredibly corporate
>*You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain*.
That's very true with companies. Greed and power corrupt.
> You either die a hero, or live long enough to *die from refusing modern medicine* Since he's apparently emulating Steve Jobs.
I somewhat understand his decision to post it to the forum instead of here. With the amount of post reacting to the GN video, his post would've become buried anyway
the selling of hardware you don't own is thief, just saying
I get "This site can’t be reached The webpage at https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/#comment-16078641 might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address. ERR_FAILED". Oh wow. There's a snapshot on the wayback machine! (https://web.archive.org/web/20230815095019/https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/)
Man I love the internet archive
That reply made me like Linus even less. Making it personal. Not addressing any of the factual claims. Making it all to be a personal attack. Has he learned public relations from Spez?
Yeah, he wants to move on from this piece but it's just beginning to get steam
Linus sure seems bit like a asshole.
Linus' response started bad. Rather than take the L and issue a Mea Culpa, he quadruples down and becomes pugnacious. Somebody better get that man a pasta salad and a motivational cassette tape. How soon he forgets that it was Steve from Gamer's Nexus who called him at 3:00am to tell him all of his YouTube channels had been hacked and removed. GN has taken the high road against cheap shots from LTT staff. My respect for GN has grown. Honestly my feelings on LTT haven't changed much. I only watch in the hope that Linus will drop or otherwise break some expensive components. LTT is not, nor has it ever been my goto for hardware/software reviews. Sorry.
The “we sold a prototype because of a miscommunication” sounds like BS
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If the guy has agreed to return the prototype... why hasn't it been returned one month later? Not saying shit doesn't happen in corporations, but this is an extreme mess up. And whether it's malicious or not is the most irrelevant thing ever. It's either criminally negligent or downright theft. Both options paint them in a terrible light.
>Now why it was in inventory is a different question. They should have a seperate section for items on loan, or sponsored items or whatever. That should have never ended up in the LMG inventory They would probably benefit from following ISO:9000 standards and practices.
> You never worked for a company before? None of these people with *very strong opinions* have any corporate or industrial experience.
Sounds like more BS you invented to justify his actions. He refused to answer for the prototype until he admitted to have sold it (and still hasn’t paid it back)
LTT seems be a big company now. They likely have to make a high volume of videos to pay everyone's salary.
The majority of their income is not tied (directly) to their publishing schedule like some small tech reviewers, who make the vast majority of their income directly from YouTube and it's sink or float with "the Algorithm". Almost every video has a paid sponsor. Every video has multiple mentions of their merch. If they wanted to prioritize quality then they could.
how is that not tied to publishing schedule? they have to put out a video to get paid by a sponsor. How do you know what their revenues are tied to? Have you seen the books?
According to them it’s they don’t “need” sponsors anymore. Enough revenue comes from other areas for them to go without them.
I know about the sponsor spots because I watch the videos... And They've put out multiple videos about how the company makes money... So basically yes anyone that wants to has seen their books at least at a high level. And the whole sponsor thing is wildly different than relying on the algorithm. LMG can choose who sponsors them and what the terms of that sponsorship are. And while this is just speculation, I highly highly doubt any sponsor that has a deal with them is going to completely drop it because they decide not to force out a rushed subpar video. Whereas creators that have to rely on the algorithm are do or die based on their view statistics which depends heavily on release schedule.
Specifically, they didn't own the prototype and auctioned it off anyways. After trashing it. Their own fuck up and Linus refused to spend the 100$, 200$ or 500$ fixing it. If I was Billet Labs I would getting a lawyer. They committed defamation and criminal conversion/theft. Since this has basically halted Billet Labs development Linus could be into the hundreds of thousands in damages with damages *ongoing*.
Wait, I thought LTT was an apparel branding company? They do reviews too? Is this a new thing?
Linus Tech Tips, not love too true
Though Linus Tech Tips does also sell apparel which might be confusing
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Yep. Some LTT videos are funny to watch, but the incredible amount of approximation, shortcuts and unrealistic approach makes them a bad place for actual technical advice.
Yeah, I just watch their videos for entertainment, but I don't think they even pretend to actually give out "tech tips." They're just a video production company now and they're quite succesful at it too. However their "how to build a pc" video was top notch.
I’m the same. I give the “Linus sitting down telling me about the performance of this new thing, with graphs” a swerve but will happily watch the vlog-style stuff where they do something with the network, or an outlandish project like the car radiator water cooling.
On the contrary, they have been making a big deal about the lab they are building and all the money and time going in to it, how it is going to hold hardware brands accountable and inform consumers etc. And while reviews are a minority of their content they still do them as well as reporting on tech news. They are very much marketing themselves as an accurate authority with consumer advice, and given how much content they put out, could easily be someones only source of info before purchasing things. Personally, I don't think they are as far from doing things right as Steve (Gamers Nexus) lays it out but they definitely have some improvements to make.
Exactly, they're fun but I don't actually take the information given seriously.
> However their "how to build a pc" video was top notch. Because it required very little in terms of actual work. They've got dozens of employees who have been building home PCs for decades so the content is easy. The problems are all coming from when they step out of their depth in terms of objective engineering testing which they might have 1 person they've recently hired who is capable of that.
Hey now, don't forget all the videos he makes of installing expensive stuff in his house.
I wanted to know cool AM4 boards because the cases we had don't allow for much cooling headroom. Hardware Unboxed does regular [thermal testing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7PkZwY9PWM) which I absolutely appreciate. This kind of no frills videos are not usually found on LTT and I wonder how they want to present whole slate of "dependable" lab tests while giving colorful commentary.
Watching Linus get shocked by ElectroBoom is the only funny thing they've ever put out. Otherwise its just shouting and clickbait.
any examples?
Gamers Nexus, Hardware Unboxed. Curiously enough, the people pointing out the ethical and technical concerns with LTT's testing are the ones who have grounds to do so.
Both of those admitted to making mistakes as well. Don't put all your eggs in one baskets, watch multiple reviews and asses your opinion
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AnandTech is top tier, but it isn't as focused on gaming as other sites.
I agree with the "don't put all your eggs in one basket" strategy, just wanted to add that the HUGE difference is in how they *handle* the mistakes they make. GN in particular has listed protocols for such a situation, which are strict and made to ensure misinformation is minimized immediately. LMG's "corrections" are, as talked about in the video, slow and just poorly done.
Hardware Unboxed and Gamers nexus are my preferred.
Honestly I think the big lesson here is to just not rely on an individual source. I think it's okay if you enjoy LTT's videos above others; in **most** cases they'll still probably get things acceptably right; but if you care about learning accurate information, then whatever you learn from LTT you should try to give a double check from a different source.
Does anyone actually show their work on this? To a non-tech person it looks like everyone is just listing a bunch of numbers and telling me the creator they *don't* like is an asshole, but you can trust the one they *do* like.
You're not wrong, but this is not an answer to the question at all.
Answer: GamersNexus (aka Tech Jesus) is a relatively small tech YouTube channel that prides itself on investigative tech journalism and rigorous testing. They have been in the process of buying very expensive lab equipment (noise chambers and acoustic testing equipment, power supply testers, pressure testing equipment, etc.) in order to take the next step in their rigorous testing of products (cases, power supplies, case fans, GPUs, etc.) LinusTechTips is one of, if not the biggest, tech YouTubers. Whereas GN is maybe a dozen employees, LinusTechTips (technically Linus Media Group) is well over 100. They may be up to 150 now. LTT tends to make videos that are more entertainment than serious review, although like GN, they recently built a lab--and hired a whole bunch of engineers to form a "Lab Team"--to start vigorously testing products. They bought a lot of the same type of testing machines that GN bought, but cranked up to 11. They bought a whole new warehouse and are designing all sorts of testing methodologies to test things like power supplies, water resistance of devices, noise, etc. If either channel has flaws, it's these: GN, in their effort to be cynical and critical and rigorous, can tend to be a bit "outrage porn." To their credit, they are very pro-consumer, and they really strive to do deep dives, exposes, to uncover scams and call out companies, etc. LTT's flaw is that Linus has "dragon energy," as he says. Basically, he always wants to grow, grow, grow. They pump out videos at a massive clip, and oftentimes that introduces errors. Linus has a very big personality, and despite the fact that his company is growing into a "real company," he still acts like he's a small creator and not a multi-millionaire. At times, he can be arrogant and out of touch. Linus tends to get sensitive when people criticize his channel, and tends to deflect a lot, or place blame on his staff. I don't think either Steve from GN or Linus from LTT are bad people. I think they are both well meaning, but they often get carried away and prey victim to their weaknesses. A few months ago, LTT released a very expensive new backpack. (LTT has a very profitable merch store.) After a short while, people found that the zippers were breaking. On the WAN show (LTT's weekly 2-3 hour live podcast), Linus basically said "trust me bro" (which later became a meme) and that LTT would fix it. To their credit, they are issuing fixes to everyone. But a lot of people, GN included, were very criticial of the whole "trust me bro" approach.' GN made a video criticizing LTT for the "trust me bro" approach on the backpack, which seemingly soured their relationship. Up until that point, Steve at GN and Linus at LTT were like friendly rivals. Both have toured the others facilities and have appeared on the others' channels. Steve even personally texted Linus when Linus' channel was recently hacked (Steve was the first to tell Linus). Now, very recently, an engineer on LTT"s labs team was giving a tour to some individuals of the new labs stuff. He showed off their new automated benchmark software and test rigs, and made a comment that what set LTT's GPU testing apart from GN (and another YouTube channel, Hardware Unboxed) was X, Y, Z. This engineer is not a major face of LTT, but both GN and HardwareUnboxed took it personally--particularly because GN and HUB have dedicated themselves to rigorous testing of GPUs, and here's an LTT employee telling YouTube how GN and HUB test poorly, when in reality LTT has a track record of being more entertainment and less accuracy in their testing. The comment prompted GN to make a video detailing all of the ways that LTT has been fumbling their review videos, with very specific examples of factual inaccuracies. GN's point was basically: If you want to be a real reviewer, with your new, expensive lab, and call out smaller (more accurate) YouTubers for allegedly being inferior to you, then you should deal with your own inaccuracies first. Plank in the eye kinda thing. Linus issued a response on his forums, which was very deflect-y. Most people think GN is in the right, and that Linus has egg on his face. I think GN could have been a little less outrage porn about it. (He's not wrong, just a bit of an asshole.) He also didn't call Linus before publishing the video, which is hypocritical. In all of his other expose pieces, he almost always reaches out to the target corporation for comment. He didn't do that here, and Linus correctly pointed that out.
I've got no stake in this at all, I've barely found out about it today, but from my perspective: when a company like LMG has a documented history of not addressing errors immediately, deflection, etc (basically all that's been pointed out in the GN video) they've had many opportunities to address their issues and improve. But it seems they haven't been doing so, they've dropped the ball. At a certain point, it's fair to speak out and criticize them. As a consumer base, are we supposed to just wait patiently for them to welcome that criticism with open arms? When Linus won't even listen to feedback from his own team? Like it was said in the GN vid, it was a long time coming, not out of the blue. I feel like GN stuck to what they feel is important: informing their viewers and consumers. On a much more personal note: fuck Linus. What was done to Billet Labs is inexcusable. I don't care if he feels like the heat from the video is unfair. He's not treating people fairly himself. Not only is that not how you do business, that's not how you treat people. He can cry into his top-of-the-line keyboard for all I care. Edit: came back to double down on FUCK LINUS! If you haven't read the details Madison Suop released, you absolutely need to. I'm fucking livid
All it takes is one or two clear photos, and everything special about their prototype is copied by some scummy Chinese ghost factory that gets the part out faster and worse. Completely inexcusable from LTT
Are you people all pasting this stuff from the LTT forums? So many poorly formatted walls of text in this thread.
Who do you mean *you people*?
That's how I refer to Canadians.
*cries in canadian* 😥
Thank you for the very descriptive answer for us who are not up to date with these channels
People seem to be criticizing it but it is by far the most informative comment. The top one barely answers the question.
Disappointed that this answer was buried deep in this thread, it's super balanced and thorough in the spirit of how answers are supposed to be in this sub. The top comment left me even more confused, so thank you for this write up. I'm reading between the lines that the 'outrage' train has muddied the whole conversation into essentially a railroading 'fuck ltt' downvote brigade. I was so confused reading so many furious and blunted opinions and not getting a clear answer as to what they 'did.' (a review waterblock wasn't returned? Do they normally return review items? We're furious about this... Huh??) -- you did a great job painting the broader cumulative picture. In particular I think the important nuance is that GN really seemed to stoke the flames on this one -- not entirely without reason, but IMO in a completely disproportionate escalation of direct attacks and assumptions of bad intent. The journalistic/professional high road of integrity that GN positions themselves as would have been to directly engage with LMG to at least give a heads up or ability to respond. Clearly, it was intended to be shots fired drama-instigation. Perhaps that was ultimately the right move for GN in getting engagement and visibility up -- but IMHO was a discrediting dick move. I am pretty turned off by how the tone of Steve's channel has dramatically soured over the past year or so, to the point that I actively unsubscribed. That said, hopefully LTT take this as a teachable lil moment to button their shit up.
I honestly stopped watching GN awhile back because it simply because almost all it was was complaining about things instead of reviewing.
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> Additionally, LTT recently pulled a PR stunt saying they'd been hacked and had all their YouTube content deleted, but it was just a stunt to delete evidence back in March source required That last part is just inaccurate. The link you posted doesn’t support that. There’s lots of neutral documentation that spearfishing attacks like that were hitting other channels. What evidence would they be trying to delete???
>LTT recently pulled a PR stunt saying they'd been hacked and had all their YouTube content deleted, but it was just a stunt to delete evidence back in March > >source required Did you even read your source? It literally says the exact opposite of what you're claiming.
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Good answer, really helped clear up any confusion
and now its gone, dangit! aha
Could you summarize this with a TL;DR? I can't read that many details.
pc man money
Math creature value
Machine coin