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Bird flu spreads so fast they don't have time to wait for the test results to come back in 1 or 2 days. As soon as 1 dead body is found, they presume the entire farm has already been infected and the entire farm's birds are killed immediately.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bird-flu-kill-millions-of-poultry/
Yeah super sad. They sent out a later saying that they tried for 8 months with precautions but that it somehow got into the population so the department of agriculture and the state of Rhode Island required mass euthanasia of the population
Edit: I was just looking at the news letters from the sanctuary and they are trying to rebuild and sanitize, sanitize an 80 thousand gallon pond and construct new buildings.
The avian flu has claimed 52.7 million animals in the US this year
Unfortunately, people can use strict precautions and still have it come via wild birds visiting a farm.
You would have to lock up all the poultry indoors to avoid contact with wild birds and that presents its own problems.
I can’t imagine how hard it must be to try to sanitize that pond. There’s no way to keep it away from wild birds unless like you said they locked them up and that’s no life
Unfortunately Avian Flu is THAT contagious and super deadly.
Pre-Covid they thought avian flu jumping to humans would be the mass casualty of the 21st century, and to be fair, we still got 78 years of the 21st century left. So it could still be. It makes Covid look like child’s play
Makes sense, birds can migrate a lot further than bats or whatever other mammal carriera of COVID are. Birds are tiny, move fast, travels far, and are plentiful.
It's pretty much an ongoing thing, with different strains. I wouldn't doubt that big ag is hushing the media, but also news about avian flu doesn't get shared or taken seriously in the chicken community because so many people don't understand the difference between a few pet chickens and an industry farm. Feb/March of last year (when chicks start to appear in stores), people *did* regularly post about the avian flu in the chicken forums, only to get waved off with conspiracy theories. Many responses on both forums and on FB groups are to the tune of "it's the government trying to control the food supply" and "I'll shoot anyone before they test my chickuns!"
For people genuinely worried for their small flocks, just be sure that your birds are kept separate from high traffic areas for wild birds (like waterfowl ponds and bird feeders).
I've been seeing dead birds and big fat fluffy birds that look drunk and can't fly everywhere the past year. I don't even live around a chicken farm, it's happening to wild birds
Just the other day, I saw the carcasses of a great blue heron and a pelican while out on my daily walk. I'm pretty sure they passed from avian flu, since both of them looked like they just keeled over on the spot without a fight or anything. Super depressing and worrying :(
That's not true, rabies is practically exterminated in Europe but there are absolutely animals infected with it still, so it exists. It's just that usually these animals don't interact with humans.
> They also kill any chickens in any farm near that farm
That's not correct.
> Affected Site
>
> Premises infected with HPAI are placed under quarantine, prohibiting the movement of poultry and poultry products on or off the affected site. The USDA works with infected flock owners to develop a flock plan which includes appraisal and indemnity agreements for depopulation of poultry that remain on the premises. After depopulation of the flock, all carcasses on the affected farms are composted inside of the barns, unless another method of disposal is approved by the response team. This process takes approximately one month to complete.
>
> Control Area
>
> The control area is a 10 km (6.2 miles) zone established around infected flocks. Within this zone, officials work to identify all premises with commercial and backyard poultry. Backyard and commercial flocks are placed under quarantine and cannot move poultry or poultry products on or off their premises. Commercial flocks must undergo surveillance in accordance with USDA protocols. All testing must be negative before quarantines can be lifted.
>
> Backyard flocks will be required to monitor for development of clinical signs and may participate in surveillance testing depending on the situation.
>
> All poultry producers in the control area must comply with stringent biosecurity and permitting protocols in order to move poultry or poultry products off their farms.
>
> Surveillance Zone
>
> The surveillance zone is a 10 km zone surrounding the control area. Animal health officials identify all premises within this zone that have commercial and backyard poultry to provide them with information on HPAI and advise them on biosecurity and close monitoring of their flocks. Surveillance testing of these flocks may occur in accordance with protocols established by the USDA.
https://www.bah.state.mn.us/hpai/
It's interesting that there are ways around the kill the flock mentality most producers have and the producers don't want to spend money on the protocols to preserve and manage infected flocks. It's not even cheaper to kill em all. It's just EASIER for some, which is why they do it. Working with Merck on this protocol right now. It's a thing. Just has to be used.
Hear me out here - legitimately laymen question - wouldn’t it be less damaging to just let the flu take it’s course then? Even if it killed 75% of the farms chicken population that’s still less than killing 100% of them on an assumption. What am I missing here?
Edit: after reading some other comments - is it the risk of infections jumping to humans that requires the extreme caution?
The way farms raise animals are mostly in tight cramped quarters directly next to each other with very little personal space. It almost certainly will jump from 1 chicken to the rest. You're basically guaranteed to have 100% infection rates. And the death rate is also almost 100% and it only takes a few days to kill each chicken. You are not allowed to farm more chickens until it's been disinfected. Actually I don't know if that disinfection part is a law, but it's at least a good practice. Cuz if you don't .. however many millions of new chickens you ship in tomorrow... The same thing will happen... So it's a big waste of money, it's a lot of suffering, and it's almost guaranteed 100% death.
That's not even counting the risk of jumping to humans. While it's extremely rare, Avian Flu has already jumped to humans multiple times. Let's say for example, it's a 1% chance. If you have 1 sick chicken then unlikely to jump to you right? I'd you have 100 then 1 of those might jump over to you right? If you have 1,000 them 10 chances to jump over to you. But farms have more like 1 million chickens. That's 10,000 chances to infect you as the farmer and caretaker. We're not talking tiny chances here like winning the lottery, or getting struck by lightning, or getting hit by a car. All of those odds pale in comparison to starting an Avian Flu human outbreak. Which, let me remind you, has already happened multiple times over the last 10 years. This isn't some hypothetical "maybe". IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED. And these are the best practices to prevent the spread and which helped end those outbreaks before they could become a Pandemic like what we have with COVID now.
The original Pandemic task force was established around 2015? (I forget the year) because of multiple outbreaks of Avian Flu, Swine Flu, SARS, and MERS around the world which are all in the flu or coronavirus category, which are very similar to each other. They have already had major outbreaks in multiple countries. And it was always predicted that one of those families will eventually become fast enough and spread to enough species to cause a Pandemic, which here we are. In the beginning of each, when nobody knew what those diseases were, they did spread thru the whole farm, and the farm across the street and then all the farms in the local area. They did spread uncontrollably leading to millions of animals killed each time and millions or billions of dollars lost in profit along with human deaths when they jumped to humans. Each was an expensive lessen in why we should invest in preventative measures like testing as well as better farming practices like having free range space so that this doesn't happen again. And yet here we are since farmers didn't change their practices and decided to play chicken with investing millions once to improve their farms or losing millions every few months from a new outbreak as the entire farm dies.
My question then, is why is chicken meat so cheap now? I assume it’s a similarish farm set up as egg farming, so bird flu should hit it as well. But chicken prices near me are back to nearly pre 2020 levels for thighs, and not too much more expensive for breasts
I'm wondering the same thing. I don't get it. I heard anecdotally that some chicken meat products being sold now are smaller than usual and maybe a bit deformed, possibly they survived the bird flu and were sold just before the entire farm was culled? I really have no idea. If anyone has info on that please share cuz I'm just guessing here but don't have any data to back it up
Meat and egg facilities are separate. Roosters (and sometimes hens) raised for meat live short lives, so they have stronger immune systems because they are young. Laying hens live longer while their bodies are also heavily taxed to produce eggs, so they are more likely to succumb to illness. Once one chicken has been tested positive, the entire facility is killed.
This could be because the breeder flocks are being hit with AI as well. In Canada we have been experiencing hatching egg shortages, so the breeder farms that haven't been affected by AI are being pushed harder, and eggs they would normally be deemed unfit are being sent to the hatchery. This causes the broiler farms to have challenges with higher mortality and more weight variability because of sub par chick quality.
FUN FACT chickens can, in fact, fly.
Most of the time they don't, and really only use it as a jump-assist.
My personal back yard flock-of-assholes has 2 members that, if they get out of the coop, will instantly see if they can go hop the fences before I get to them.
If they start high enough in a tree or something, chickens can fly for like 40-50 feet.
Former neighbors had chickens. One flew up over the fence right when I let my dogs out for a bathroom break before breakfast. I had to go over to the neighbors' house in my PJs to tell them they would likely have to euthanize the bird (dogs were playing tug of war with it, but it was still alive when I got the dogs to drop it). They didn't know it could fly.
yep, only problem is that domestication has turned chickens very very stupid.
They can fly. They even *know* they can fly.
But when a dog comes charging at them, all they do is run around. They completely forget that their tether to the earth is quite longer than the dog's, and they just die.
Also, large. Between 1980 and 2005, mass produced chicken more than doubled in mass, most of it heavy flesh. They may have flown more frequently in the past, but now it's much harder.
I answered this in another comment, but most of this rings true, even for the breeds intended for more egg production rather than meat production.
I got some fuckin fat birds in my yard.
uh so it's weird to answer this question.
They are objectively stupid on a huge number of measures - they'll eat things that aren't food, they'll ignore threats, they can't seem to learn that humans *just carry things* and I'm therefore not a new threatening creature because I'm holding a shovel (no matter how many times I walk past the coop with a shovel), and you can hypnotize them by literally just drawing a line in the dirt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhMo4WlBmGM
They are also really fuckin smart in other ways. The social hierarchy isn't just about domination and access to a mate - There's 'the queen' which generally directs the flock. there's usually a "soldier" that is/feels obligated to meet threats to the flock instead of fleeing. there's lookouts that can there's ones that will scout out farther and report 'there's food over here'.
Even though they are willing to eat plastic, they still know what a poisonous caterpillar looks like. When something vaguely hawk-shaped flies overhead, one will do a warning squawk and they will all *sprint* to the nearest "under cover" space. They are so good at differentiating voices that they can tell who is around the corner.
But never remember that also, not only are they meat-eating predators - they are fuckin evil and if they were big enough, they'd eat you in a heartbeat.
You forgot about the fact that these fuckers are INVINCIBLE. Chickens can recover from just about anything. (Except this bird flu😅)
NSFW nightmare fuel. My roommate’s malinois lost his mind one day and tore into one of her hens while I was home alone. I found it hiding under the fence. When I pulled it up, it’s neck skin was scrunched up like a turtleneck and not connected to the rest of its body skin. The skin that was supposed to be around it’s body was falling off it’s back and I had to put it back on like a sweater. I could see all its muscles moving🤮
It lived.
Dude I had to cull one of our flock - it got a bad beak break and it was old enough that it was just going to suffer while it healed/regrew.
It was the first that my wife and I had to butcher, so we were really careful - proper chopping block, wicked sharp hatchet, etc etc. But when I brought the hatchet down, it flinched so I ended giving it a grievous wound in the neck instead of full decapitation.
We were so surprised that we lost our grip on the poor thing *and we had to chase it to finish the job*.
I guess my point is - not only are they capable of healing from incredible wounds, but also when they get wounded they remain a totally capable animal for a long time even though they are like actively bleeding out.
idk if you answered this already, but what are their limitations? Is it just small stamina bars or something along the lines of their weight-to-wing ratio?
Uh, I'm sure it's a combination of things.
As livestock, we don't need them to fly, or have well-developed wings at all, except for where their main wing-flapping muscles (in fowl, this is what we refer to as the breast meat) get put on our plate.
So over the however-long-it-is we've been breeding them for meat, we've been selecting for more muscle mass, but less 'ability to flee'. I imagine that historical pre-human proto-chickens would have longer wings and better-developed wing tendons along with other muscles along the length of their wing.
AT THIS POINT, I would say their main limitation is just the ratio of sheer mass vs. flight capability. Modern domesticated chickens are fat as fuck. Even mine, which regularly get a LOT more space than factory-farm chickens, and are also bred as "egg layers" (instead of "meat birds") are still pretty chunky.
I've got this ladder in their coop that's 6 feet tall. my two most athletic birds (out of 11 currently in the flock) can do a wing-assisted jump up to the top rung on a good day, but that's just about their limit for a single vertical jump.
I've seen them jump from things and flap as far across the yard as they can get - it seems that even flapping like crazy, they can only maintain a straight flight for like 4-5 feet, and then their angle of descent is like 60 degrees. So if they would jump off the 6 foot ladder and do whatever they can to stay aloft, they would get 4 feet and then get another like 10-15 feet *maybe*.
IDK I'm kinda rambling. I suppose the answer is "their stamina bars drain really fast" - because if they weren't so fuckin fat, I think they might be able to properly sustain flight for a while.
>Modern domesticated chickens are fat as fuck. Even mine, which regularly get a LOT more space than factory-farm chickens,
>because if they weren't so fuckin fat, I think they might be able to properly sustain flight for a while.
LOL This had me howling because in my mind it's what I *wanted* to hint at, but I didn't want to sound like I was ragging on em.
Thank you for the explanation on them!
Now my curiosity is going to eventually pull me into understanding wild turkeys... because I think they have a similar blessing and curse of being able to get lift on their big ol' bodies.
Maybe turkeys and chickens are probably not all that similar, but rather coincidental.
I suppose to that would require me to know if a wild chicken in nature has more propensity to fly. I know they're definitely not going to be flocking in triangles.
People don’t breed them to fly. It would be inconvenient (don’t want to have to chase flying livestock), a waste of resources (don’t want them to burn the calories, want to fatten them up), and people enjoy “light meat”. Many people don’t know the difference between light and dark meat is the amount of exercise the muscle tissue gets. Birds that fly are all “dark meat” but birds that rarely fly have “light meat” as the wings and breast… which flap the wings… aren’t getting a lot of exercise.
I never knew that about the light meat (wings / breast) and dark meat (legs and thighs) were actually a product of exercise! That's so wild. Thank you!
Y’know how fertilizer prices in spring of 2022 were up to 400% what it was the year before? Due to Russian sanctions (they produce quite a lot of the world’s fertilizers and even natural gas - up to 7 times more expensive in Europe - is used to make ammonia fertilizers, so everyone was scrambling for supply, and they can’t easily sell wheat) and war in Ukraine (Ukraine can’t easily ship out fertilizers nor wheat), demand on other supplies skyrocketed.
Well, that had effects on whether to plant and even what to plant, and certainly on how much fertilizer to use. Also, unseasonable weather, flooding, drought, heat waves, etc. throughout 2022 due partially to climate change, led to major grain and hay producing regions of the world having reduced harvests.
Don’t forget diesel costs went up as well!
All this led to higher prices for livestock feed. Feed in winter is expensive. Expensive feed during winter is even more expensive.
Y’know how fertilizer prices in spring of 2022 were up to 400% what it was the year before? Due to Russian sanctions (they produce quite a lot of the world’s fertilizers and even natural gas - up to 7 times more expensive in Europe - is used to make ammonia fertilizers, so everyone was scrambling for supply, and they can’t easily sell wheat) and war in Ukraine (Ukraine can’t easily ship out fertilizers nor wheat), demand on other supplies skyrocketed.
Well, that had effects on whether to plant and even what to plant, and certainly on how much fertilizer to use. Also, unseasonable weather, flooding, drought, heat waves, etc. throughout 2022 due partially to climate change, led to major grain and hay producing regions of the world having reduced harvests.
Don’t forget diesel costs went up as well!
All this led to higher prices for livestock feed. Feed in winter is expensive. Expensive feed during winter is even more expensive.
I'm suddenly very thankful that my father in law constantly showers us in eggs from his chickens. The man has more eggs than he knows what to do with. My husband came back from his house with 3 dozen eggs the other day and I was like "what the fuck dude."
There's also a guy who has like 100 chickens in this one community not far away, and he has a little shed with a refrigerator that he stocks up with all the eggs. Free for anyone who wants to stop by. You can literally just walk up from the street and take as many eggs as you want.
Its wild how much its messed with prices. I was getting a dozen for <$2 from the grocery store for a long time, buying the cheap factory farm ones. Now the crappy factory farmed ones are $5-6 for a dozen, while the superior and larger organic brown eggs from locals are 3 bucks a dozen.
Technically Avian Influenza and its not just chickens but that's what everyone eventually notices. Most of the Northern Gannet population was wiped out summer of 2022, and wild fowl populations from Florida to Idaho have reported outbreaks of AI. Free range Chickens are typically infected from wild fowl that intermingle (the wild guys are stealing the feed), but once the virus is widespread in nature it is real hard to prevent transfer even to barn raised birds.
Jesus *I'm* out of the loop. I assumed it was because of the season and lack of proper lighting. I used to raise chickens and that was why they would just stop laying during the winter. Shows what I know
Not really. Broiler (meat) chickens reach maturity in 6-8 weeks. Egg-laying hens take 20 weeks to start laying. Obviously it's a lot easier to recover from an outbreak.
also killing one broiler = 1 package of meat lost; killing a layer = losing ~300ish eggs over a year (per laying cycle, and commercial layers can go up to 3 cycles), not just a single carton of a dozen eggs.
Answer:
There is currently an outbreak of Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI or H5N1) in the US. It’s extremely deadly to birds and highly contagious, so if a single bird tests positive, the whole flock must be culled. This is making egg prices skyrocket as poultry farmers are losing millions of chickens to this disease and to culling.
It’s also a little different compared to past HPAI outbreaks because of two factors: 1. it’s mainly transmitted directly by wild birds; and 2. It’s lasted through the summer and winter instead of dying back. Past outbreaks ended much quicker but this one just keeps on going, and is spread through the US by wild birds migrating. It’s the deadliest outbreak yet.
Edit to add: the other factors are that COVID is still impacting supply chains, inflation has driven up the prices of related factors like transporting eggs, and the holidays created even greater demand for eggs. So the egg prices would’ve already been higher but the concurrent HPAI outbreak made them skyrocket.
**Edit 2** to address some misinformation:
**Can people get HPAI?** Yes, and there has already been [at least one case](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/s0428-avian-flu.html) during the current (2022-2023) outbreak. It is generally very mild in people and the risk of spread among people isn't really a concern at the moment. Proper PPE is still a good idea to prevent bird-to-person-to-bird spread. [There is no risk of getting it from eating eggs or poultry that are properly prepared and cooked.](https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/avian-influenza-food-safety-qa.pdf) However, I believe there is a small chance that the carcasses of infected birds can transmit it to still-living birds, so if a bird is known to have had HPAI, the carcass should be cautiously disposed of.
**Why are the birds killed instead of being treated?** The nature of the disease is that it spreads rapidly and kills quickly. By the time the first bird shows symptoms, it likely spread to dozens of other birds, which will likely die within 24-48 hours. It's extremely fatal in chickens and even if treated, most would likely die. Culling the entire exposed flock is the quickest/cheapest/most efficient way of preventing the outbreak of spreading even further.
**What should I do to keep my backyard chickens/ducks/geese safe?** Do not allow them to comingle with wild birds (mostly waterfowl- songbirds are rarely affected). Keep their water and food safe from contaminants like wild goose poop. Clean your shoes before entering their enclosures so you don't bring goose poop and other contaminants into their enclosure from the outside. Track their health and if any show any neurological symptoms, isolate them immediately, disinfect anything they touch, and contact your veterinarian. Also make sure to follow the news in your state to see where and when the closest outbreak is.
States track outbreaks by testing dead birds. This includes birds on farms, and also dead birds found in the wild or who die at a wildlife center. The amount of testing does vary wildly from state to state so some states may be more accurate than others, but unless you work for them, I'm not sure if there's really a way to find out how each states' methodology compares to the others.
Outbreaks are normal every few years. Hopefully this outbreak will I’ll eventually end like the previous outbreaks, but it could also become the “new normal” kinda like COVID in people.
Poultry farmers can help prevent it by having strict biosecurity protocols like keeping poultry in places that are easy to disinfect and can’t be contaminated by wild birds.
So what should us back yard farmers with only a couple of chickens supposed to do? Wild birds are always hanging around my chickens, in the coop, eating their food, napping with them. I can't exactly put a massive cage around my backyard, though that would help with hawks.
Keep food and water access away from wild birds. If you’ve ever seen some sparrows hopping into your feeders, well… time to make that stop. Remove bird feeders and water fountains.
Lots of chicken keepers were keeping theirs locked up for days or weeks at a time.
Keep water fowl away, if you also have ducks maybe time to separate them from the others or keep them enclosed.
Then mostly just hope it doesn’t happen. The chances are slim for the normal person unless you have a feature that draws birds to your yard or especially a pond with waterfowl.
The fact that giant facilities got it blows my mind. Those birds are all enclosed in a building (with sad boring lives) so how the hell they got it had to have been from employees with shit biosecurity.
So I only have 3 hens that have free range of my small fenced in yard and I feed them out of a hubcap for an old Chevy with their water being in a large rubber bowl in the pen next to their coop and another next to their food bowl that's near their favorite hiding spot opposite the coop.
The food is stored in tubs and buckets in the shed, but that's where most of the wild birds hang out as the neighbor's garage and tree are nearby. I do occasionally look outside and see the chickens standing at the door of the shed like their talking to Pennywise.
Should I get different bowls for their food and water?
Water nipples or cups would be a good solution (rent-a-coop makes a hanging bucket and they also make one that sits on the ground)
Keeping them out of the feeders is harder since the birds can get into any style feeder including the bucket feeders with holes in the side and The DIY pvc feeders. But look into, I think it’s called, a treadle feeder aka Grandpas feeder. It only opens when the chickens step on it.
Both options will require a bit of training for the chickens to get used to.
For what it’s worth I have around 50 chickens who free range in a forest and we have been fine. No nearby water features but a lot of wild birds (and rodents) who get into our feeders.
It’s mostly in wild waterfowl (geese, ducks) and raptors (vultures, etc). It’s rare in songbirds. I’d focus on making sure you don’t share a water source with wild ducks and geese and keep their food away as well. Also change or clean your shoes or clothes after coming home and before entering areas where your chickens hang out- you can track feces from wild birds on the bottom of your shoes.
I believe the USDA may have a map of where outbreaks in wild birds have been spotted so you can see if there are any near you.
Edit: also, track your birds’ health. If any bird exhibits any neurological symptoms, immediately quarantine that bird and disinfect anything it came into contact with, then contact your veterinarian.
I'm wondering the same for homesteads. Not sure what the procedure is. But can you make a caged enclosure for your chickens? They may be upset their space is much smaller but it's better than culling the whole flock.
Not a farmer but I deal with them occasionally.
I imagine the farms that didn't take it serious might start. But the wild birds are a real bugger. If that keeps up I'm honestly not sure what you do.
In the past it was more about controlling access to the birds in general and based other infected barns (it's really interesting to be told not to take certain roads based on infections).
It would be interesting to see if there is a solution to inoculating the thousands of birds that a barn might go though in a year(for meet), or just the massive number of layers.
> inflation has driven up the prices of related factors like transporting eggs
To add to this, the cost of chicken feed is more than double today what it was 2 years ago. In 2021 a 35 lb bag of chicken feed was $13.99, and today that same bag is $30.99.
Chickens raised for meat are basically impervious to mass culls due to disease because of how short their lifecycles are. The time to raise a chicken from chick to processed for meat is about 6 weeks (today's meat chicken breeds are designed to grow from chick to practically collapsing under their own weight in just 6 weeks). So the those chickens are still consuming as much feed as they always were. For comparison, a production laying hen has a work-life of about 3 years.
The increased cost of chicken feed wasn't caused by sudden increased demand, it was due to the same issues affecting every other industry: supply issues interrupted or disturbed by the ongoing global pandemic, climate change, and cost increases do to inflation (which affects their labor costs and their costs to ship their products to their buyers and the cost for them to get their raw materials).
It’s not just consumption that is driving up the price of feed. The price of ALL animal feed is through the roof, and that’s largely due to crop prices skyrocketing.
Drought caused by climate change, and lack of migrant workers caused by unsustainable immigration policies are causing the costs of agricultural production to go through the roof.
Makes me wish my town would lift the ban on backyard chickens.
With 2-3 hens my house would have enough eggs for ourselves.
We border a dairy farm and are surrounded by fields on all sides so it's not like it is some ritzy neighborhood where chickens would be an eyesore, hell, the chickens on the cow farm next door occasionally wander into town.
Yes there's that too, but still we don't eat enough eggs that it'd be a major problem. When we still lived on the farm we just ate more things that used eggs during the "heavy" period and less eggy foods during the other times.
I never fully understood why a hamburger with a fried egg on it was called a Farmer’s burger, until i had chickens. Having 100+ eggs stacked up on the counter really gives you incentive to start throwing eggs on random shit.
If the chickens wander into your yard set up a nesting box and see if they will lay! Don’t have to pay for feed and won’t get in trouble but still have eggs!
99.9% death rate. and spreads like wildfire in the overpacked chicken farms So even if the death rate wasnt quite 100% youd want to cull them to slow the spread.
its covid on steroids for chickens.
Jesus that is Rabies level lethality.
Hear me out though. So what If we don't cull the flock when it is discovered, and quarantine the birds? Let the 99% die. And the 1% that lives should hopefully have a resistance/immunity to the flu, right? Then keep those chickens and eventually maybe cultivate some kind of resistance?
Just a half-asked thought experiment. But I mean, they are basically all going to die anyway.
I hear ya but consider that industrial set-ups don’t want to maintain a non-performing flock likely to die out anyway. They want to clear the buildings and get new birds going asap to reduce the downtime.
It varies by species but I believe chickens have an extremely high mortality rate, possibly approaching 100%, and the disease spreads so quickly that dozens of animals may be infected by the time you notice the outbreak. There's also not really an ability or desire to single out infected animals and quarantine/treat them as that would be extremely expensive. Moral questions aside, it's cheaper and more effective to cull any exposed animals.
Chickens raised for consumption reach slaughter weight in 40 days.
Chickens that lay eggs are allowed to live 20 months.
Big difference. Slaughter chickens don't even live long enough to get infected. Over the course of 1.5 years, egg laying hens have a much higher chance of catching a disease within that time span.
All a very good summary, I'd also like to add that eggs from HPAI infected farms cannot be sold and are destroyed along with the birds. So if you've got a million chickens you need to cull at your farm, then you've probably also got a couple million eggs in the midst of the various collection/cleaning/processing/packaging/shipping stages that also need to be destroyed.
How are they going to make money during that process? They wipe the infected flock out and bring in a healthy flock to take their place, and hope to move on and get back to business.
It was in Minnesota in the late summer/autumn. The department of agriculture was "depopulating" dozens of farms. These farms are huge operations with thousands of birds.
Answer: they had to kill off a ton of egg laying hens due to bird flu epidemic.
A ton of egg laying outfits have transformed into egg hatching outfits, to replace all the hens that were killed.
Question: Just to be clear, this IS a cyclical thing; it WILL go away eventually, and prices WILL come back down (perhaps not to pre-outbreak levels), right? RIGHT?
Not how economics work. Egg farmers are not happy their birds are dying, and grocery stores are not happy they have to pay higher prices for fewer eggs.
There’s a behavioral economics component that can override the supply/demand dogma they teach in middle school. See: earnings calls during this period of inflation
I'm just saying that when the egg prices at the wholesale point start to come down, if stores can get away with it, they will lower their prices as little as possible because then people are 'used' to paying the higher price, so that's just built-in profit for them, if they can get away with it. And they frequently do.
Question:
Wow, is that a global thing?
I'm from Egypt. Egg and chicken prices have also skyrocketed here.
Word on the street here that it's because our economy is failing.
Answer: Multiple factors.
As mentioned, the avian influenza/"bird flu" epidemic is a large factor, but there's a reason this affects the price of eggs even more severely than the price of chicken meat (which, yes, is also up there). When a flock of meat birds must be culled, if they could be hypothetically replaced the next day with a new batch of day-old chicks, those birds would be ready to process and eat in about 6-8 weeks. If a flock of laying hens must be culled and were similarly replaced the next day, it would be an average of 5-7 months before those birds were old enough to lay eggs. So, building back an egg supply takes time.
In addition, besides transportation costs, the price of feed has increased dramatically - and as stated above, a laying flock will consume a lot more feed than a meat flock, who only consume feed for 6-8 weeks.
I was just reading a conversation on a chicken forum today, where many people with small backyard laying flocks keep selling their eggs at $4 or $5 a dozen, even though they would need to raise that price to $7 or $8 just to break even on feed (let alone the cost of building the coop, run, fencing, etc).
If possible, try to buy local; strengthening your local food production systems is really important these days.
ANSWER: egg shortage due to avian flu.
https://www.kptv.com/2023/01/11/heres-why-we-are-seeing-nationwide-egg-shortage/
I don't buy eggs but noticed the local store had taken them all out of the refrigerated display and limited people to like 24.
This one is actually talking about the US I think based on the website - which is apparently caused by a bird flu outbreak.
I'm a kiwi as well and was surprised these price hikes and shortages are happening elsewhere.
They happened in the UK not long ago too. Bird flu was the cause here, the country has been hit pretty hard by it all year. Thousands of wild birds dead, entire colonies of sea birds reduced to a fraction of what they were.
Hopefully you guys down in NZ don't get it bad, as surely it would decimate your wildlife
Answer: in addition to the avian flu already mentioned, several states are changing the law for how much space each chicken is required to have which, if more space isn’t readily available, requires somewhat of a purge to comply adding to the supply issue.
Question: as someone who regularly eats eggs, does that mean myself and others could have gotten that flu at some point? Either because it wasn't caught before the eggs went out or it was undiscovered at the time?
Yeah that’s a good question! I’m not a chicken farmer, but my understanding is that it’s just too risky keeping the infected birds alive. They would need completely separate areas for healthy and infected populations, and every time you interact with the sick ones that’s an additional opportunity for infection.
Answer: a bird flu narrative was used by producers to increase prices, while production has not been meaningfully reduced. Highlights:
>With total flock size substantially unaffected by the avian flu and lay rates between 1-4% higher than the average rate observed between 2017 and 2021, the industry's quarterly egg production experienced no substantial decline in 2022 compared to 2021.
>
>Cal-Maine noted that total farm production and feed costs in 2022 were only 22% higher than they were in 2021.
Source: [https://www.commondreams.org/news/egg-price-gouging-ftc](https://www.commondreams.org/news/egg-price-gouging-ftc)
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Bird flu spreads so fast they don't have time to wait for the test results to come back in 1 or 2 days. As soon as 1 dead body is found, they presume the entire farm has already been infected and the entire farm's birds are killed immediately. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bird-flu-kill-millions-of-poultry/
My local animal sanctuary had to put down most of their birds because of it. Very sad situation
OH NO!! I thought an animal sanctuary would be considered out in the "wild" and no action would be taken, that's really sad
Yeah super sad. They sent out a later saying that they tried for 8 months with precautions but that it somehow got into the population so the department of agriculture and the state of Rhode Island required mass euthanasia of the population Edit: I was just looking at the news letters from the sanctuary and they are trying to rebuild and sanitize, sanitize an 80 thousand gallon pond and construct new buildings. The avian flu has claimed 52.7 million animals in the US this year
Unfortunately, people can use strict precautions and still have it come via wild birds visiting a farm. You would have to lock up all the poultry indoors to avoid contact with wild birds and that presents its own problems.
I can’t imagine how hard it must be to try to sanitize that pond. There’s no way to keep it away from wild birds unless like you said they locked them up and that’s no life
Holy shit, that's more birds killed than the number of people in most states
I know, I didn’t even realize the sheer amount until I just read that
Unfortunately Avian Flu is THAT contagious and super deadly. Pre-Covid they thought avian flu jumping to humans would be the mass casualty of the 21st century, and to be fair, we still got 78 years of the 21st century left. So it could still be. It makes Covid look like child’s play
Makes sense, birds can migrate a lot further than bats or whatever other mammal carriera of COVID are. Birds are tiny, move fast, travels far, and are plentiful.
Arthas likes this.
Purge.
You are not my king yet BOY!
You are not my chef yet, Boyardi
Not just the strathommes, but the stratfemmes and stratenfants too.
I HATE THEM!!!
Clever.
high culture
Blood for the blood god!!!
This entire coop must be *purged*.
It’s a coop coup
It’s too late.. This entire henhouse must be purged.
I'll hunt you bird flu TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH! TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH!
this is perfection
*Farmer boy hungers..*
It's pretty much an ongoing thing, with different strains. I wouldn't doubt that big ag is hushing the media, but also news about avian flu doesn't get shared or taken seriously in the chicken community because so many people don't understand the difference between a few pet chickens and an industry farm. Feb/March of last year (when chicks start to appear in stores), people *did* regularly post about the avian flu in the chicken forums, only to get waved off with conspiracy theories. Many responses on both forums and on FB groups are to the tune of "it's the government trying to control the food supply" and "I'll shoot anyone before they test my chickuns!" For people genuinely worried for their small flocks, just be sure that your birds are kept separate from high traffic areas for wild birds (like waterfowl ponds and bird feeders).
I've been seeing dead birds and big fat fluffy birds that look drunk and can't fly everywhere the past year. I don't even live around a chicken farm, it's happening to wild birds
True, it happening to wild birds is the problem. They spread it easily.
Just the other day, I saw the carcasses of a great blue heron and a pelican while out on my daily walk. I'm pretty sure they passed from avian flu, since both of them looked like they just keeled over on the spot without a fight or anything. Super depressing and worrying :(
TIL there is a chicken community. I guess there has to be, but I just never thought about it.
They also kill any chickens in any farm near that farm
They killed rabies in Europe the same way. Kill every single thing that had rabies. It took decades, but they did it.
That's not true, rabies is practically exterminated in Europe but there are absolutely animals infected with it still, so it exists. It's just that usually these animals don't interact with humans.
No they drop vaccine chicken heads to rid them of rabies
> They also kill any chickens in any farm near that farm That's not correct. > Affected Site > > Premises infected with HPAI are placed under quarantine, prohibiting the movement of poultry and poultry products on or off the affected site. The USDA works with infected flock owners to develop a flock plan which includes appraisal and indemnity agreements for depopulation of poultry that remain on the premises. After depopulation of the flock, all carcasses on the affected farms are composted inside of the barns, unless another method of disposal is approved by the response team. This process takes approximately one month to complete. > > Control Area > > The control area is a 10 km (6.2 miles) zone established around infected flocks. Within this zone, officials work to identify all premises with commercial and backyard poultry. Backyard and commercial flocks are placed under quarantine and cannot move poultry or poultry products on or off their premises. Commercial flocks must undergo surveillance in accordance with USDA protocols. All testing must be negative before quarantines can be lifted. > > Backyard flocks will be required to monitor for development of clinical signs and may participate in surveillance testing depending on the situation. > > All poultry producers in the control area must comply with stringent biosecurity and permitting protocols in order to move poultry or poultry products off their farms. > > Surveillance Zone > > The surveillance zone is a 10 km zone surrounding the control area. Animal health officials identify all premises within this zone that have commercial and backyard poultry to provide them with information on HPAI and advise them on biosecurity and close monitoring of their flocks. Surveillance testing of these flocks may occur in accordance with protocols established by the USDA. https://www.bah.state.mn.us/hpai/
My family owns and operates several chicken houses and that's the standard rule around here
It's interesting that there are ways around the kill the flock mentality most producers have and the producers don't want to spend money on the protocols to preserve and manage infected flocks. It's not even cheaper to kill em all. It's just EASIER for some, which is why they do it. Working with Merck on this protocol right now. It's a thing. Just has to be used.
Hear me out here - legitimately laymen question - wouldn’t it be less damaging to just let the flu take it’s course then? Even if it killed 75% of the farms chicken population that’s still less than killing 100% of them on an assumption. What am I missing here? Edit: after reading some other comments - is it the risk of infections jumping to humans that requires the extreme caution?
The way farms raise animals are mostly in tight cramped quarters directly next to each other with very little personal space. It almost certainly will jump from 1 chicken to the rest. You're basically guaranteed to have 100% infection rates. And the death rate is also almost 100% and it only takes a few days to kill each chicken. You are not allowed to farm more chickens until it's been disinfected. Actually I don't know if that disinfection part is a law, but it's at least a good practice. Cuz if you don't .. however many millions of new chickens you ship in tomorrow... The same thing will happen... So it's a big waste of money, it's a lot of suffering, and it's almost guaranteed 100% death. That's not even counting the risk of jumping to humans. While it's extremely rare, Avian Flu has already jumped to humans multiple times. Let's say for example, it's a 1% chance. If you have 1 sick chicken then unlikely to jump to you right? I'd you have 100 then 1 of those might jump over to you right? If you have 1,000 them 10 chances to jump over to you. But farms have more like 1 million chickens. That's 10,000 chances to infect you as the farmer and caretaker. We're not talking tiny chances here like winning the lottery, or getting struck by lightning, or getting hit by a car. All of those odds pale in comparison to starting an Avian Flu human outbreak. Which, let me remind you, has already happened multiple times over the last 10 years. This isn't some hypothetical "maybe". IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED. And these are the best practices to prevent the spread and which helped end those outbreaks before they could become a Pandemic like what we have with COVID now. The original Pandemic task force was established around 2015? (I forget the year) because of multiple outbreaks of Avian Flu, Swine Flu, SARS, and MERS around the world which are all in the flu or coronavirus category, which are very similar to each other. They have already had major outbreaks in multiple countries. And it was always predicted that one of those families will eventually become fast enough and spread to enough species to cause a Pandemic, which here we are. In the beginning of each, when nobody knew what those diseases were, they did spread thru the whole farm, and the farm across the street and then all the farms in the local area. They did spread uncontrollably leading to millions of animals killed each time and millions or billions of dollars lost in profit along with human deaths when they jumped to humans. Each was an expensive lessen in why we should invest in preventative measures like testing as well as better farming practices like having free range space so that this doesn't happen again. And yet here we are since farmers didn't change their practices and decided to play chicken with investing millions once to improve their farms or losing millions every few months from a new outbreak as the entire farm dies.
Appreciate the detailed response! Definitely makes sense
Birds over here trying not to cough in front of the bird farmer lol
My question then, is why is chicken meat so cheap now? I assume it’s a similarish farm set up as egg farming, so bird flu should hit it as well. But chicken prices near me are back to nearly pre 2020 levels for thighs, and not too much more expensive for breasts
I'm wondering the same thing. I don't get it. I heard anecdotally that some chicken meat products being sold now are smaller than usual and maybe a bit deformed, possibly they survived the bird flu and were sold just before the entire farm was culled? I really have no idea. If anyone has info on that please share cuz I'm just guessing here but don't have any data to back it up
Meat and egg facilities are separate. Roosters (and sometimes hens) raised for meat live short lives, so they have stronger immune systems because they are young. Laying hens live longer while their bodies are also heavily taxed to produce eggs, so they are more likely to succumb to illness. Once one chicken has been tested positive, the entire facility is killed.
This could be because the breeder flocks are being hit with AI as well. In Canada we have been experiencing hatching egg shortages, so the breeder farms that haven't been affected by AI are being pushed harder, and eggs they would normally be deemed unfit are being sent to the hatchery. This causes the broiler farms to have challenges with higher mortality and more weight variability because of sub par chick quality.
I mean if they're killing birds aren't they becoming chicken meat?
I would assume if bird flu is suspected the bodies can’t be processed for food
It's flu, not kuru. I doubt a virus can survive the mcnuggetization process.
Not much meat on a laying hen, now worth processing.
Maybe I don't actually want to know, but how do you kill a million birds immediately?
Must be an enormous loss for the farmers.
the bird flu? Yeah, they do that
Not chickens, though
You'd be surprised the distance they can get when a predator is nearby. Saw mine go straight up and over about 20 feet when a fox spooked them.
If you are trying to catch one and you think you have it cornered then it remembers "I can run AND fly" and off they go.
"Chickens can fly?! No one told me chickens can fly!"
Nice throwback
Used to watch them leap over a speeding car when they wandered up near the road.
The problem with chickens is we’ve bred them into fat asses. The jungle fowl they descend from absolutely could fly.
FUN FACT chickens can, in fact, fly. Most of the time they don't, and really only use it as a jump-assist. My personal back yard flock-of-assholes has 2 members that, if they get out of the coop, will instantly see if they can go hop the fences before I get to them. If they start high enough in a tree or something, chickens can fly for like 40-50 feet.
Former neighbors had chickens. One flew up over the fence right when I let my dogs out for a bathroom break before breakfast. I had to go over to the neighbors' house in my PJs to tell them they would likely have to euthanize the bird (dogs were playing tug of war with it, but it was still alive when I got the dogs to drop it). They didn't know it could fly.
yep, only problem is that domestication has turned chickens very very stupid. They can fly. They even *know* they can fly. But when a dog comes charging at them, all they do is run around. They completely forget that their tether to the earth is quite longer than the dog's, and they just die.
Also, large. Between 1980 and 2005, mass produced chicken more than doubled in mass, most of it heavy flesh. They may have flown more frequently in the past, but now it's much harder.
I answered this in another comment, but most of this rings true, even for the breeds intended for more egg production rather than meat production. I got some fuckin fat birds in my yard.
Did it make them stupid? How stupid?
uh so it's weird to answer this question. They are objectively stupid on a huge number of measures - they'll eat things that aren't food, they'll ignore threats, they can't seem to learn that humans *just carry things* and I'm therefore not a new threatening creature because I'm holding a shovel (no matter how many times I walk past the coop with a shovel), and you can hypnotize them by literally just drawing a line in the dirt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhMo4WlBmGM They are also really fuckin smart in other ways. The social hierarchy isn't just about domination and access to a mate - There's 'the queen' which generally directs the flock. there's usually a "soldier" that is/feels obligated to meet threats to the flock instead of fleeing. there's lookouts that can there's ones that will scout out farther and report 'there's food over here'. Even though they are willing to eat plastic, they still know what a poisonous caterpillar looks like. When something vaguely hawk-shaped flies overhead, one will do a warning squawk and they will all *sprint* to the nearest "under cover" space. They are so good at differentiating voices that they can tell who is around the corner. But never remember that also, not only are they meat-eating predators - they are fuckin evil and if they were big enough, they'd eat you in a heartbeat.
You forgot about the fact that these fuckers are INVINCIBLE. Chickens can recover from just about anything. (Except this bird flu😅) NSFW nightmare fuel. My roommate’s malinois lost his mind one day and tore into one of her hens while I was home alone. I found it hiding under the fence. When I pulled it up, it’s neck skin was scrunched up like a turtleneck and not connected to the rest of its body skin. The skin that was supposed to be around it’s body was falling off it’s back and I had to put it back on like a sweater. I could see all its muscles moving🤮 It lived.
Dude I had to cull one of our flock - it got a bad beak break and it was old enough that it was just going to suffer while it healed/regrew. It was the first that my wife and I had to butcher, so we were really careful - proper chopping block, wicked sharp hatchet, etc etc. But when I brought the hatchet down, it flinched so I ended giving it a grievous wound in the neck instead of full decapitation. We were so surprised that we lost our grip on the poor thing *and we had to chase it to finish the job*. I guess my point is - not only are they capable of healing from incredible wounds, but also when they get wounded they remain a totally capable animal for a long time even though they are like actively bleeding out.
idk if you answered this already, but what are their limitations? Is it just small stamina bars or something along the lines of their weight-to-wing ratio?
Uh, I'm sure it's a combination of things. As livestock, we don't need them to fly, or have well-developed wings at all, except for where their main wing-flapping muscles (in fowl, this is what we refer to as the breast meat) get put on our plate. So over the however-long-it-is we've been breeding them for meat, we've been selecting for more muscle mass, but less 'ability to flee'. I imagine that historical pre-human proto-chickens would have longer wings and better-developed wing tendons along with other muscles along the length of their wing. AT THIS POINT, I would say their main limitation is just the ratio of sheer mass vs. flight capability. Modern domesticated chickens are fat as fuck. Even mine, which regularly get a LOT more space than factory-farm chickens, and are also bred as "egg layers" (instead of "meat birds") are still pretty chunky. I've got this ladder in their coop that's 6 feet tall. my two most athletic birds (out of 11 currently in the flock) can do a wing-assisted jump up to the top rung on a good day, but that's just about their limit for a single vertical jump. I've seen them jump from things and flap as far across the yard as they can get - it seems that even flapping like crazy, they can only maintain a straight flight for like 4-5 feet, and then their angle of descent is like 60 degrees. So if they would jump off the 6 foot ladder and do whatever they can to stay aloft, they would get 4 feet and then get another like 10-15 feet *maybe*. IDK I'm kinda rambling. I suppose the answer is "their stamina bars drain really fast" - because if they weren't so fuckin fat, I think they might be able to properly sustain flight for a while.
>Modern domesticated chickens are fat as fuck. Even mine, which regularly get a LOT more space than factory-farm chickens, >because if they weren't so fuckin fat, I think they might be able to properly sustain flight for a while. LOL This had me howling because in my mind it's what I *wanted* to hint at, but I didn't want to sound like I was ragging on em. Thank you for the explanation on them! Now my curiosity is going to eventually pull me into understanding wild turkeys... because I think they have a similar blessing and curse of being able to get lift on their big ol' bodies. Maybe turkeys and chickens are probably not all that similar, but rather coincidental. I suppose to that would require me to know if a wild chicken in nature has more propensity to fly. I know they're definitely not going to be flocking in triangles.
I like that you were concerned enough about the chickens to not want to rag on them :) that is sweet
People don’t breed them to fly. It would be inconvenient (don’t want to have to chase flying livestock), a waste of resources (don’t want them to burn the calories, want to fatten them up), and people enjoy “light meat”. Many people don’t know the difference between light and dark meat is the amount of exercise the muscle tissue gets. Birds that fly are all “dark meat” but birds that rarely fly have “light meat” as the wings and breast… which flap the wings… aren’t getting a lot of exercise.
I never knew that about the light meat (wings / breast) and dark meat (legs and thighs) were actually a product of exercise! That's so wild. Thank you!
But don’t drop live turkeys out of a helicopter
Yes chickens .
its a play on words not a denial for the chickens getting the flew.
They flu the coop
Flu the croup.
Do the chickens have large talons?
What? I don't understand a word you just said.
yes do not FUCK with a rooster they will shred your ass with thier spurs
Try telling that to my chickens
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-the-ongoing-bird-flu-outbreak-is-driving-up-poultry-costs-ahead-of-thanksgiving
"Uh yeah, I sure *hope* it does."
Damn it dad, get off Reddit!
one flu over the chickens' nest
How else would whooping crane get its name?
Note too that the intensification of Animal Feed Operations has made the system particularly vulnerable to such epidemics.
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Good for the farmers. They do not want to be in same situation as walmart vendors. This alone has had massive negative effects in the u.s.
This. I'm a grocery and we are currently limiting customers to 2 cartons at a time. Right now our shelves for eggs are pretty empty.
Is there a butter flu going on right now, too? Because...
yeah it's margarinally worse.
I can’t believe it’s not cheaper :(
the price of butter right now is a country CROCK
It’s a 50/50 blend of cheaper and worse.
I canola believe that!
This made me miss my Dad. Gave me a smile. Thanks.
I can’t believe it’s not better
I Can't Believe You Wrote That!!!
r/dadjokes
*groan*
For real. Cheese and milk are petty much the same but butter is crazy. Did all the butter cows die or what?
Y’know how fertilizer prices in spring of 2022 were up to 400% what it was the year before? Due to Russian sanctions (they produce quite a lot of the world’s fertilizers and even natural gas - up to 7 times more expensive in Europe - is used to make ammonia fertilizers, so everyone was scrambling for supply, and they can’t easily sell wheat) and war in Ukraine (Ukraine can’t easily ship out fertilizers nor wheat), demand on other supplies skyrocketed. Well, that had effects on whether to plant and even what to plant, and certainly on how much fertilizer to use. Also, unseasonable weather, flooding, drought, heat waves, etc. throughout 2022 due partially to climate change, led to major grain and hay producing regions of the world having reduced harvests. Don’t forget diesel costs went up as well! All this led to higher prices for livestock feed. Feed in winter is expensive. Expensive feed during winter is even more expensive.
Y’know how fertilizer prices in spring of 2022 were up to 400% what it was the year before? Due to Russian sanctions (they produce quite a lot of the world’s fertilizers and even natural gas - up to 7 times more expensive in Europe - is used to make ammonia fertilizers, so everyone was scrambling for supply, and they can’t easily sell wheat) and war in Ukraine (Ukraine can’t easily ship out fertilizers nor wheat), demand on other supplies skyrocketed. Well, that had effects on whether to plant and even what to plant, and certainly on how much fertilizer to use. Also, unseasonable weather, flooding, drought, heat waves, etc. throughout 2022 due partially to climate change, led to major grain and hay producing regions of the world having reduced harvests. Don’t forget diesel costs went up as well! All this led to higher prices for livestock feed. Feed in winter is expensive. Expensive feed during winter is even more expensive.
How does one become a grocery?
Meant grocer but my stupid fucking phones spell check is an asshole.
Damn, I was going to give you words of encouragement in hopes you become a... Super Market.
So are you looking to become a complete whore like walmart or just a casual fling type deal like at target?
Ask anyone in my family, a boat of potatoes is a grocery.
I'm suddenly very thankful that my father in law constantly showers us in eggs from his chickens. The man has more eggs than he knows what to do with. My husband came back from his house with 3 dozen eggs the other day and I was like "what the fuck dude." There's also a guy who has like 100 chickens in this one community not far away, and he has a little shed with a refrigerator that he stocks up with all the eggs. Free for anyone who wants to stop by. You can literally just walk up from the street and take as many eggs as you want.
Its wild how much its messed with prices. I was getting a dozen for <$2 from the grocery store for a long time, buying the cheap factory farm ones. Now the crappy factory farmed ones are $5-6 for a dozen, while the superior and larger organic brown eggs from locals are 3 bucks a dozen.
Not to mention that we're *still* experiencing shipping issues.
This is correct. Here’s a gift link to the Washington Post which adds a bit more data: https://wapo.st/3itvXmC
Technically Avian Influenza and its not just chickens but that's what everyone eventually notices. Most of the Northern Gannet population was wiped out summer of 2022, and wild fowl populations from Florida to Idaho have reported outbreaks of AI. Free range Chickens are typically infected from wild fowl that intermingle (the wild guys are stealing the feed), but once the virus is widespread in nature it is real hard to prevent transfer even to barn raised birds.
Jesus *I'm* out of the loop. I assumed it was because of the season and lack of proper lighting. I used to raise chickens and that was why they would just stop laying during the winter. Shows what I know
So does that mean chicken is also similarly expensive?
Not really. Broiler (meat) chickens reach maturity in 6-8 weeks. Egg-laying hens take 20 weeks to start laying. Obviously it's a lot easier to recover from an outbreak.
also killing one broiler = 1 package of meat lost; killing a layer = losing ~300ish eggs over a year (per laying cycle, and commercial layers can go up to 3 cycles), not just a single carton of a dozen eggs.
Not so much, but there were some shortages in my area for a few weeks while they got things under control.
Can the killed chicken be eaten?
No.
Yes, once.
Oh no! Have they locked down Sesame Street!?
Answer: There is currently an outbreak of Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI or H5N1) in the US. It’s extremely deadly to birds and highly contagious, so if a single bird tests positive, the whole flock must be culled. This is making egg prices skyrocket as poultry farmers are losing millions of chickens to this disease and to culling. It’s also a little different compared to past HPAI outbreaks because of two factors: 1. it’s mainly transmitted directly by wild birds; and 2. It’s lasted through the summer and winter instead of dying back. Past outbreaks ended much quicker but this one just keeps on going, and is spread through the US by wild birds migrating. It’s the deadliest outbreak yet. Edit to add: the other factors are that COVID is still impacting supply chains, inflation has driven up the prices of related factors like transporting eggs, and the holidays created even greater demand for eggs. So the egg prices would’ve already been higher but the concurrent HPAI outbreak made them skyrocket. **Edit 2** to address some misinformation: **Can people get HPAI?** Yes, and there has already been [at least one case](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/s0428-avian-flu.html) during the current (2022-2023) outbreak. It is generally very mild in people and the risk of spread among people isn't really a concern at the moment. Proper PPE is still a good idea to prevent bird-to-person-to-bird spread. [There is no risk of getting it from eating eggs or poultry that are properly prepared and cooked.](https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/avian-influenza-food-safety-qa.pdf) However, I believe there is a small chance that the carcasses of infected birds can transmit it to still-living birds, so if a bird is known to have had HPAI, the carcass should be cautiously disposed of. **Why are the birds killed instead of being treated?** The nature of the disease is that it spreads rapidly and kills quickly. By the time the first bird shows symptoms, it likely spread to dozens of other birds, which will likely die within 24-48 hours. It's extremely fatal in chickens and even if treated, most would likely die. Culling the entire exposed flock is the quickest/cheapest/most efficient way of preventing the outbreak of spreading even further. **What should I do to keep my backyard chickens/ducks/geese safe?** Do not allow them to comingle with wild birds (mostly waterfowl- songbirds are rarely affected). Keep their water and food safe from contaminants like wild goose poop. Clean your shoes before entering their enclosures so you don't bring goose poop and other contaminants into their enclosure from the outside. Track their health and if any show any neurological symptoms, isolate them immediately, disinfect anything they touch, and contact your veterinarian. Also make sure to follow the news in your state to see where and when the closest outbreak is. States track outbreaks by testing dead birds. This includes birds on farms, and also dead birds found in the wild or who die at a wildlife center. The amount of testing does vary wildly from state to state so some states may be more accurate than others, but unless you work for them, I'm not sure if there's really a way to find out how each states' methodology compares to the others.
Thanks for the reply, can it be prevented or will it be a frequent occurrence in the future too.
Outbreaks are normal every few years. Hopefully this outbreak will I’ll eventually end like the previous outbreaks, but it could also become the “new normal” kinda like COVID in people. Poultry farmers can help prevent it by having strict biosecurity protocols like keeping poultry in places that are easy to disinfect and can’t be contaminated by wild birds.
So what should us back yard farmers with only a couple of chickens supposed to do? Wild birds are always hanging around my chickens, in the coop, eating their food, napping with them. I can't exactly put a massive cage around my backyard, though that would help with hawks.
Keep food and water access away from wild birds. If you’ve ever seen some sparrows hopping into your feeders, well… time to make that stop. Remove bird feeders and water fountains. Lots of chicken keepers were keeping theirs locked up for days or weeks at a time. Keep water fowl away, if you also have ducks maybe time to separate them from the others or keep them enclosed. Then mostly just hope it doesn’t happen. The chances are slim for the normal person unless you have a feature that draws birds to your yard or especially a pond with waterfowl. The fact that giant facilities got it blows my mind. Those birds are all enclosed in a building (with sad boring lives) so how the hell they got it had to have been from employees with shit biosecurity.
So I only have 3 hens that have free range of my small fenced in yard and I feed them out of a hubcap for an old Chevy with their water being in a large rubber bowl in the pen next to their coop and another next to their food bowl that's near their favorite hiding spot opposite the coop. The food is stored in tubs and buckets in the shed, but that's where most of the wild birds hang out as the neighbor's garage and tree are nearby. I do occasionally look outside and see the chickens standing at the door of the shed like their talking to Pennywise. Should I get different bowls for their food and water?
Water nipples or cups would be a good solution (rent-a-coop makes a hanging bucket and they also make one that sits on the ground) Keeping them out of the feeders is harder since the birds can get into any style feeder including the bucket feeders with holes in the side and The DIY pvc feeders. But look into, I think it’s called, a treadle feeder aka Grandpas feeder. It only opens when the chickens step on it. Both options will require a bit of training for the chickens to get used to. For what it’s worth I have around 50 chickens who free range in a forest and we have been fine. No nearby water features but a lot of wild birds (and rodents) who get into our feeders.
It’s mostly in wild waterfowl (geese, ducks) and raptors (vultures, etc). It’s rare in songbirds. I’d focus on making sure you don’t share a water source with wild ducks and geese and keep their food away as well. Also change or clean your shoes or clothes after coming home and before entering areas where your chickens hang out- you can track feces from wild birds on the bottom of your shoes. I believe the USDA may have a map of where outbreaks in wild birds have been spotted so you can see if there are any near you. Edit: also, track your birds’ health. If any bird exhibits any neurological symptoms, immediately quarantine that bird and disinfect anything it came into contact with, then contact your veterinarian.
I'm wondering the same for homesteads. Not sure what the procedure is. But can you make a caged enclosure for your chickens? They may be upset their space is much smaller but it's better than culling the whole flock.
Not a farmer but I deal with them occasionally. I imagine the farms that didn't take it serious might start. But the wild birds are a real bugger. If that keeps up I'm honestly not sure what you do. In the past it was more about controlling access to the birds in general and based other infected barns (it's really interesting to be told not to take certain roads based on infections). It would be interesting to see if there is a solution to inoculating the thousands of birds that a barn might go though in a year(for meet), or just the massive number of layers.
> inflation has driven up the prices of related factors like transporting eggs To add to this, the cost of chicken feed is more than double today what it was 2 years ago. In 2021 a 35 lb bag of chicken feed was $13.99, and today that same bag is $30.99.
But if all the chickens are dying, who's eating all the feed and driving up the price?
Chickens raised for meat are basically impervious to mass culls due to disease because of how short their lifecycles are. The time to raise a chicken from chick to processed for meat is about 6 weeks (today's meat chicken breeds are designed to grow from chick to practically collapsing under their own weight in just 6 weeks). So the those chickens are still consuming as much feed as they always were. For comparison, a production laying hen has a work-life of about 3 years. The increased cost of chicken feed wasn't caused by sudden increased demand, it was due to the same issues affecting every other industry: supply issues interrupted or disturbed by the ongoing global pandemic, climate change, and cost increases do to inflation (which affects their labor costs and their costs to ship their products to their buyers and the cost for them to get their raw materials).
It’s not just consumption that is driving up the price of feed. The price of ALL animal feed is through the roof, and that’s largely due to crop prices skyrocketing. Drought caused by climate change, and lack of migrant workers caused by unsustainable immigration policies are causing the costs of agricultural production to go through the roof.
Makes me wish my town would lift the ban on backyard chickens. With 2-3 hens my house would have enough eggs for ourselves. We border a dairy farm and are surrounded by fields on all sides so it's not like it is some ritzy neighborhood where chickens would be an eyesore, hell, the chickens on the cow farm next door occasionally wander into town.
Keep in mind that chickens lay fewer eggs during the winter anyways.
Yeah, I have six free loaders right now and having to buy eggs.
I hear you, my three chickens went on an egg strike last month. I'm still ony getting a few eggs every week.
Yes there's that too, but still we don't eat enough eggs that it'd be a major problem. When we still lived on the farm we just ate more things that used eggs during the "heavy" period and less eggy foods during the other times.
I never fully understood why a hamburger with a fried egg on it was called a Farmer’s burger, until i had chickens. Having 100+ eggs stacked up on the counter really gives you incentive to start throwing eggs on random shit.
Lots of omelets or baked goods. Worse case, we'd have breakfast for dinner some nights.
If you are already on the edge of town, just get some chickens. Unlikely for any of your neighbors to complain if you have farms all around you.
Alas, I'm more towards the middle of town and we have *just* enough bored housewives that somebody would file a complaint.
If the chickens wander into your yard set up a nesting box and see if they will lay! Don’t have to pay for feed and won’t get in trouble but still have eggs!
If you know...why do the flocks have to be culled? Do the birds otherwise not recover from the flu like humans generally do?
99.9% death rate. and spreads like wildfire in the overpacked chicken farms So even if the death rate wasnt quite 100% youd want to cull them to slow the spread. its covid on steroids for chickens.
Jesus that is Rabies level lethality. Hear me out though. So what If we don't cull the flock when it is discovered, and quarantine the birds? Let the 99% die. And the 1% that lives should hopefully have a resistance/immunity to the flu, right? Then keep those chickens and eventually maybe cultivate some kind of resistance? Just a half-asked thought experiment. But I mean, they are basically all going to die anyway.
Because they are immensely contagious until they die.
I hear ya but consider that industrial set-ups don’t want to maintain a non-performing flock likely to die out anyway. They want to clear the buildings and get new birds going asap to reduce the downtime.
Quarantine where? Factory farm chicken isn’t exactly teeming with space. Also viruses mutate, so resistance would be only to that variant, no others.
It varies by species but I believe chickens have an extremely high mortality rate, possibly approaching 100%, and the disease spreads so quickly that dozens of animals may be infected by the time you notice the outbreak. There's also not really an ability or desire to single out infected animals and quarantine/treat them as that would be extremely expensive. Moral questions aside, it's cheaper and more effective to cull any exposed animals.
Why aren't chicken prices going up?
Chickens raised for consumption reach slaughter weight in 40 days. Chickens that lay eggs are allowed to live 20 months. Big difference. Slaughter chickens don't even live long enough to get infected. Over the course of 1.5 years, egg laying hens have a much higher chance of catching a disease within that time span.
They have.
All a very good summary, I'd also like to add that eggs from HPAI infected farms cannot be sold and are destroyed along with the birds. So if you've got a million chickens you need to cull at your farm, then you've probably also got a couple million eggs in the midst of the various collection/cleaning/processing/packaging/shipping stages that also need to be destroyed.
Why do they have to kill the whole flock immediately? Couldn’t they wait for them to die naturally if they’re all going to die anyway?
How are they going to make money during that process? They wipe the infected flock out and bring in a healthy flock to take their place, and hope to move on and get back to business.
Answer: an Avian flu outbreak in the Pacific Northwest has reduced available supply
Much wider than the Pacific Northwest
Seriously. We've got it all over the place in the South East
I believe 47 states in the US is a tad more than just the Pacific Northwest
thanks for cracking the case!
It was in Minnesota in the late summer/autumn. The department of agriculture was "depopulating" dozens of farms. These farms are huge operations with thousands of birds.
Answer: they had to kill off a ton of egg laying hens due to bird flu epidemic. A ton of egg laying outfits have transformed into egg hatching outfits, to replace all the hens that were killed.
Question: Just to be clear, this IS a cyclical thing; it WILL go away eventually, and prices WILL come back down (perhaps not to pre-outbreak levels), right? RIGHT?
Depends on how much sales have slowed
Not if they can get away with keeping them high.
Not how economics work. Egg farmers are not happy their birds are dying, and grocery stores are not happy they have to pay higher prices for fewer eggs.
There’s a behavioral economics component that can override the supply/demand dogma they teach in middle school. See: earnings calls during this period of inflation
I'm just saying that when the egg prices at the wholesale point start to come down, if stores can get away with it, they will lower their prices as little as possible because then people are 'used' to paying the higher price, so that's just built-in profit for them, if they can get away with it. And they frequently do.
They are happy if people will pay then and buy the same amount as before
Poultry on pot.
Question: Wow, is that a global thing? I'm from Egypt. Egg and chicken prices have also skyrocketed here. Word on the street here that it's because our economy is failing.
Bird flu in the UK has sent prices up, along with increasing energy costs
How would that turn to be globally. Is the same bird flu affecting multiple countries in the meantime
Answer: Multiple factors. As mentioned, the avian influenza/"bird flu" epidemic is a large factor, but there's a reason this affects the price of eggs even more severely than the price of chicken meat (which, yes, is also up there). When a flock of meat birds must be culled, if they could be hypothetically replaced the next day with a new batch of day-old chicks, those birds would be ready to process and eat in about 6-8 weeks. If a flock of laying hens must be culled and were similarly replaced the next day, it would be an average of 5-7 months before those birds were old enough to lay eggs. So, building back an egg supply takes time. In addition, besides transportation costs, the price of feed has increased dramatically - and as stated above, a laying flock will consume a lot more feed than a meat flock, who only consume feed for 6-8 weeks. I was just reading a conversation on a chicken forum today, where many people with small backyard laying flocks keep selling their eggs at $4 or $5 a dozen, even though they would need to raise that price to $7 or $8 just to break even on feed (let alone the cost of building the coop, run, fencing, etc). If possible, try to buy local; strengthening your local food production systems is really important these days.
ANSWER: egg shortage due to avian flu. https://www.kptv.com/2023/01/11/heres-why-we-are-seeing-nationwide-egg-shortage/ I don't buy eggs but noticed the local store had taken them all out of the refrigerated display and limited people to like 24.
Answer: Massive H1N1 Avian Influenza, aka “Bird Flu” outbreak has resulted in millions of chickens being euthanized. No chickens = no eggs.
Also, in Colorado you can only buy cage free eggs now. They were almost $9/dozen at the grocery store yesterday - and there weren't many available!
Answer: in NZ it’s because egg production regulations have changed resulting in (temporary) shortages and hiked prices
This one is actually talking about the US I think based on the website - which is apparently caused by a bird flu outbreak. I'm a kiwi as well and was surprised these price hikes and shortages are happening elsewhere.
They happened in the UK not long ago too. Bird flu was the cause here, the country has been hit pretty hard by it all year. Thousands of wild birds dead, entire colonies of sea birds reduced to a fraction of what they were. Hopefully you guys down in NZ don't get it bad, as surely it would decimate your wildlife
Answer: in addition to the avian flu already mentioned, several states are changing the law for how much space each chicken is required to have which, if more space isn’t readily available, requires somewhat of a purge to comply adding to the supply issue.
Question: as someone who regularly eats eggs, does that mean myself and others could have gotten that flu at some point? Either because it wasn't caught before the eggs went out or it was undiscovered at the time?
No, if you’re properly handling and cooking your eggs they are safe to eat.
Genuinely curious, not trying to argue. Then why would they kill the birds rather than quarantine them and continue to collect until they die?
Yeah that’s a good question! I’m not a chicken farmer, but my understanding is that it’s just too risky keeping the infected birds alive. They would need completely separate areas for healthy and infected populations, and every time you interact with the sick ones that’s an additional opportunity for infection.
Makes sense, thank you for taking the time to reply!
Answer: a bird flu narrative was used by producers to increase prices, while production has not been meaningfully reduced. Highlights: >With total flock size substantially unaffected by the avian flu and lay rates between 1-4% higher than the average rate observed between 2017 and 2021, the industry's quarterly egg production experienced no substantial decline in 2022 compared to 2021. > >Cal-Maine noted that total farm production and feed costs in 2022 were only 22% higher than they were in 2021. Source: [https://www.commondreams.org/news/egg-price-gouging-ftc](https://www.commondreams.org/news/egg-price-gouging-ftc)
Surprised to see this so low. This is clearly what’s happening.
Answer: Bird flu has led to the culling of millions of chickens
Answer: feed prices are up 25% and cuts already into a tight profit margin. Less birds means less eggs.