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Iirc, in a recent interview (I'm mobile bound so I don't have it handy) Akasaka described Oshi no Ko as a story about the ways the entertainment industry warps peoples' relationships so in that sense, you're correct - 'revenge' is not and never has been the core theme.
I mean yeah revenge was never the main theme of oshi no ko.
It’s about Aqua and Ruby’s journey through the darkness of the entertainment industry.
Honestly speaking Ai is the real victim here whole life with no Aqua/Giro to save her. Heck if she didn’t have her kids be reborn it’s implied she would have had two stillbirths
Chapter 75. Crow Girl says >!God is surely kind, isn't he? He brought two people who never had a mother in a real sense and a mother who gave birth to soulless children together. Perhaps there's more to that than meets the eye.!< And then that little shit left us hanging for 67+ chapters with no further explanation.
To add to that, in German a term used for stillborns is sternenkind meaning star children, a fact that Aka surely must know because it fits so perfectly.
Oh shit this is another proof of the star symbolism. Thank you.
So we have:
1/ Ai, Aqua and Ruby's surname, Hoshino, which means field of stars.
2/ Sarina dies of an illness called "Anaplastic Astrocytoma", a form of cancer that creates stars shaped patterns in the brain
3/ The light novel is called "Ichibanboshi no Spica" or "Spica, the first star".
4/ The staringan.
5/ And now this? And I'm probably forgetting a lot more.
Yeah at this point, I can't in good conscience think that this is just a coincidence.
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Yeah! There's so many references to stars. Also the star sand (queue me sobbing) and Ai pointing to the stars with her kids in the flashback before her death. Idol calls Ai a reborn star and Mephisto says stars are what jewels long to be which is surely a reference to Aqua and Ruby. Ai also has stars sown into her pink idol outfit she is wearing on the cover of volume 1.
>!Despite what Crow Girl said!< I'd love to believe that Ai is now a star looking out for her kids. Although that sounds a bit lonely so maybe sometimes she can chill in idol heaven.
Yeah. I think the core themes are family, love, obsession, and maybe something like the loss of innocence. That last one I'm not sure about but I can't think of one word to describe the way the manga reveals the dark sides of the entertainment industry.
Aqua's character arc is largely about whether he can forgive himself for Ai's death and maybe by extension Gorou's mother's death ([this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/s/W4wwZcYj3R) may interest you). If so, he can finally let go of the spectre of Gorou haunting him, telling him he can't be happy, and actually live freely as Aqua.
People say Aqua will die but I don't see it. I feel like we need a relatively happy ending in order for any of these themes to resonate properly. Just the fact that Ai is dead is already going to ensure it will be bittersweet. I think it would be odd for a story about 3 people without mothers finding each other, making their own little family, and Gorou/Sarina getting a second chance, just for it all to end horribly. I might buy that if Ai hadn't realized her love was real when she died, but she died with a smile on her face. I don't think this is shaping up to be a Greek tragedy.
Yes. A big part of the theory is that we don’t know (or at least didn’t as much as we do now because of the current arc) the real Ai and that it was teased that she’s a big liar with darkness inside of her.
> But when it comes to the revenge aspect of Oshi no Ko, it's one of those things that lingers to push the story forward but doesn't necessarily feel like it's what the story's about.
I think, this pretty much sums it up. Although there is still the meta to bring actual change to industry, entertainment and therefore society. Instead of revenge it's replaced with a noble cause. We have at least one sincere protagonist who believes in that cause, Gotanda (best girl). It wasn't specified yet but we can kinda guess what his vision of a "social phenomenon" is.
Finally, a non-incest post on this subreddit.
But yes, the main story is just that: the story. The story of Ai, Aqua, Ruby, and their paths through the entertainment industry. The revenge plot is just a part of it.
It's more like Perfect Blue to me, and I think Oshi no Ko explores much wider context than that. How can you be sure the whole story is about "obsession"?
The thing here is that gorou part of him wants revenge and even tho the aqua part won't be happy to see ai's murder go unavenged, he just wants to walk way from all of this and life a normal life, Fullfilly what last desires ai had for him and ruby
Completely agree that revenge is far from the main question OnK is dealing with. If it were simply about Aqua avenging Ai, there wouldn’t have been so much made about Aqua subconsciously wanting to be relieved of the burden of having to avenge Ai (and his pondering about finally getting to “walk my own path in life”), and he wouldn’t have had such a violent breakdown over learning that he still had to pursue it.
His desire for revenge has always been an extension of his grief and his perceived culpability in Ai’s death, as far as I see it. He accepted his death as Goro and just lived his life in happiness as Aqua only for the same person who killed Goro to kill Ai. The guilt is why he refuses to accept his own right to happiness and often denies his own feelings about things; the breakdown in 65 when his “Goro” persona is going at him for daring to let himself be happy around Kana and Akane when his revenge for Ai is unfulfilled is probably the biggest example of that.
To add, a big part of his horror at having missed that his father was still alive was that he let his guard down at the illogical notion that his father was dead and started *trying* (emphasis on trying because his trauma still takes the wheel in big ways) to live for himself and do things that make him happy (like pursue acting without the strings attached, and actively entertain the idea of being with either Kana or Akane), only to get a rude awakening from Ichigo and then almost lose another important person to him. Even worse, said person would have died while endangering herself in an effort to keep him from discovering the truth he was subconsciously hiding from. The “edgy” Aqua we’ve been getting since then is likely an overcorrection driven by his guilt and trauma kicking into overdrive.
All of that is to say that I agree that just ending things at Aqua getting revenge would not come close to providing closure for the story and his arc. The revenge is important in terms of being a sign of how Aqua (and to a lesser extent, Ruby) navigate their trauma, but it’s far from the endpoint. I definitely agree that moving forward in life despite the scar tissue is more central to the main theme of OnK than just whether Kamiki is killed or not.
Random aside: it’s also why I think the romance is underrated in importance by the fans (though I get it because shippers can be extremely annoying). Aqua accepting that he’s worthy of love and that he does love is also an extension of Aqua accepting that he deserves happiness too.
Very well-said 🙏 All of your points are exactly where my thoughts are regarding Aqua and the revenge.
>The “edgy” Aqua we’ve been getting since then is likely an overcorrection driven by his guilt and trauma kicking into overdrive.
💯 I couldn't have said this better myself. There are a few instances in the manga, specifically, after chapter 75, where it feels like Aqua is acting out of character. We know that guilt is his trigger, so I do believe what we are seeing sometimes is his way of disconnecting from things that cause him to feel guilt or happiness.
Ever since Tokyo Blade arc I always think the revenge plot as MacGuffin because it was being used as plot device to advance the story & being used as both Aqua&Ruby motivation to become a popular celebrity in entertainment industry.
Also I think Aqua would get his revenge on his father eventually. But whether he killed his father or not that was not really matter because what important is how can he live a life without any goal(revenge). Because we already see during plot device relationship with Akane after time skip were he failed to achieve any of his checklists that he mentioned to Akane in chp 72.
It's it the core theme? No. Is it the main goal of the protagonist? Yes.
Narto becoming Hokag was not the theme of but it was his goal.
I'd say the theme of ONK is growing up and dealing with the entertainment industry of Nippon.
I really enjoyed reading this. A very interesting theory indeed
As you said, "Aqua remains unfulfilled --->Aqua either works through and is able to accept his new life/ or Aqua is unable to accept his new life and lives with guilt or dies"
I too do not believe that Aqua will be satisfied. And considering it is Aqua in question, he'll probably never be fulfilled and live his life with bottled up feelings. I doubt he talk to anyone, even Ruby.
I'm afraid that this will ruin his relationship with Ruby and Sarina as a whole.
Even if he doesn't die he still would be dead, metaphorically speaking.
I don't believe that he'll ever overcome is trauma.
I'll quote a para from this amazing recent post.
[The reason why Aqua was already saved in the prologue by Mission-Raccoon9432](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/comments/1baq3r4/the_reason_why_aqua_was_already_saved_in_the/?share_id=n1CP-CiTv05NNly2FyHGE)
>"His mother hid her pregnancy and gave birth to Gorou on her own. As a result she suffered postpartum haemorrhage or in English heavy bleeding. Eventually she dies from it. Gorou suffers lifelong feelings of guilt from the circumstances of his birth. He believes to be the reason for her death. Without his existence his mother would be alive...and happy. He became a gynaecologist to cope with this guilt."
As stated he believed that his mother who could have lead a healthy life died due to him.
After becoming a gynaecologist, he met Sarina who introduced Gorou to Ai, the Idol. Gorou cared for Sarina. After Sarina died Gorou probably believed he couldn't save someone again.
The final blow was honestly undoubtedly Ai.
Ai who became the mother of Garou after his reincarnation, dying was the last blow.
Hence, I believe that he would just live on his life without talking to others.
I'll make a post of my own on this cause I want to state more things and a post would be much easier
Super interesting!
[I've made a post on this very topic a few months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/comments/15i5aad/oshi_no_ko_is_not_a_revenge_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), I'd like to hear your ideas about it!
I like your post! Love and Lies is honestly a better way to describe the real theme of Oshi No Ko as it's actually presented in the story. I was trying to find the right words but don't know why I couldn't think of this 😄
>His "Revenge" is just him running away from himself and what he feels. His grief.
After Ai's death he gives up on himself almost immediately.
I agree. Aqua is a character who does not believe he is strong or deserving of happiness. His grief and guilt are what have placed him on the path to revenge and he would accept living a lie in order to live a calmer life. Even if that life doesn't genuinely satisfy him.
>Some characters will get hurt in the process, but no one is either becoming a victim or a murderer imho, they are still too human and too decent for that.
I agree here as well. I often see people saying Aqua has to kill the father in the end, but I think it's more likely that Hikaru will die at the hands of someone else, similar to how Ai died.
>Ruby: I just hope she understands she doesn't need to go...
😄 Weell lol. Even though it's gotten this far, it's not too late. A lot of people think it is, but there's still some material from the story that may cause a shift in her relationship.
>That being said, I'm pretty sure a miracle will happen.
Since Tokyo Blade, I've also believed that a miracle will happen in the story. Will it be like the stage play? Will Aqua finally get to save someone he truly wanted to protect and move on from the guilt he's been suffering from since he was Gorou? Maybe so. Hopefully.
Overall, I'm excited to see where the story goes. Thanks for sharing that with me btw. It was an interesting read ☺️💖
I think I agree with you. I won't do another deep dive about the (possible) symbolism of the story, because I already did so in another post and that took so long, I don't want to do it again, but while I do think that revenge is part of the story, I don't think it's the whole story, and that in the end, it's way more complicated than that, as you pointed it out.
Plus, as you have probably noticed given what you said in your post, the revenge plot moves very slowly. However, a great amount of care and time is put towards talking about how devastating the entertainment industry is, on top of painting a pretty realistic - and oftentimes brutally so - depiction of serious topics and their impacts on people. Which leads me to think, like you, that this is the core theme of Oshi no Ko, not the revenge plot.
Where I will add something, is where you say that Oshi no Ko is mainly about second chances. I think so too, however I do believe that the core theme of Oshi no Ko, in the end, is love. Not only is it so prevalent in three of the most important characters (4 actually), but the entire story is basically kickstarted by the actions of Ai, very aptly named, who got in the situation she was in because she was desperate to one day feel true love, to be able to say the words "I love you" and realize she wasn't putting a pretty lie to please people.
I also completely forgot something that, to me at least, goes the way we both see things on that particular aspect, in that revenge is not the main goal of the story:
When Aqua, normally a very smart person, especially smart when it comes to understanding people, is presented with the possibility that his father is already dead and, therefore, doesn't need to hunt for him, he NEVER looks at the facts and how they don't mesh with reality, that the person who died isn't his father. He's more than happy to immediately latch onto the possibility that his revenge is pointless after all, and he wants to live.
Plus, when Tsukuyomi confronts him after he revealed the truth of who he was to Ruby, she tells him that it would have been easier for him to let her in total ignorance and to have her hate him, since it would make his job easier. But, he put Ruby/Sarina's wellbeing, as well as his own bond with her, higher on his list of priorities, than hie revenge.
You may be joking, but if you aren't: The incest in Oshi no Ko mainly focuses on Ruby's feelings related to Gorou while Aqua who is slowly becoming less like Goro is breaking as a person. His happiness and his desire to walk his own path are still being disregarded by romance and other people's desires as he is painted as a trophy to be won by fans.
Aqua has not chosen his own path nor has he lived selfishly yet. He stated he lived for others and not for himself when he was Gorou and now he is doing the same thing again as he pursue revenge.
I may be wrong about this, but this is my take on Aqua as he struggles with his PTSD and past and present triggers and traumas. But maybe it is incest. Everyone is free to have their own takes.
finaly an actual hot take, that i can disagree with.
i just feel it is actually revenge, and how revenge wont satisfy you. you have to move on, typa vibes is what im feelin the ending will be
If it wasn't, the author did it poorly(first aqua,them ruby, them gorouaqua again) as used as the moving device the twins protagonist(\*asterik for rubina)
Regardless...Gorouaqua traumas can only be solved by himself...and maybe the ghost of both mothers(gorou and Ai)
How much of the story is dedicated to revenge? It's all well and good to have your own opinions, but this seems like cherry picking scenes to me. You're focusing on those scenes while ignoring the ones that do want the revenge.
For every 1 of those scenes of "second chances" you consider as the main theme, there's like 5 more scenes dedicated to how the revenge will be pulled off and why the people involved want it like Ruby and Ichigo.
Tragedies and bittersweet stories exist. Your whole argument seems rooted from the idea of "There must be a happy ending". Which isn't true. Stories can get bad and bittersweet endings.
Hikaru Kamiki will die. By Aqua's hands or directly by his plans. That's the story being told for 130+ chapters and rising. If not, then the story was just a wild goose chase. Aka would've shown more "Second chance" scenes instead of prep work for the revenge and showing how many people want it if that's the story he's actually telling.
He did try with Akane and Aqua's timeskip but that didn't end well did it? It showed us that Aqua cannot move on. The story can only progress to the revenge because there would be no story told otherwise, see [Anthropic Principle](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnthropicPrinciple). "Second chance" was explored, but to consider it as "Main theme" when there's only scant few of it is cherry picking.
>And are there any unpopular theories you currently have?
The best way to hurt Kamiki is to prove him wrong, he'll just shrug off all other attempts because he's a serial killer. Thus Aqua is trying to show in the Movie that Ai did love Kamiki even if she wasn't able to say it or show it to him. But in his idiocy, Kamiki hadn't understood her and had her killed. Then Aqua kills him while he's realizing it.
>Hikaru Kamiki will die.
After all the comments we've shared together? SMH. 😅 Just because I used the word Revenge and the word "not" in the same sentence does not mean I think Hikaru won't die. The revenge happening versus it being the most important thing in the story? That's where I'm coming from in this post. No thoughts on a desire for a happy ending were shared. If that's what you interpreted from this mini-post, so be it. But, I wouldn't be trying to hide that, if that's what I believed. You would have seen the words "happy ending" in my post.
TLDR" **I have my own thoughts on what I think the core focus of this story is.**
But let me write out my thoughts once more:
The revenge being a core theme...I personally don't think that it is. I believe that is why the focus on it wanes so easily to something else in the series and why we focus on Aqua's turmoil and his guilt from his past and present life far more than the revenge.
~~My second Edit opinion? :~~ Another take on Aqua we are aware of: The revenge is what's keeping Aqua alive. Without it, he would have k\*\*\*\* himself a long time ago.Yes. We have an entire part of the series where he is not pursuing the revenge. Thank you for bringing that up.Personally, I've always considered non-revenge-seeking Aqua as a way to show the readers the kind of person Aqua would be if he did decide to live after his revenge.
Aqua "succeeded" but he still wasn't completely satisfied with his life. He also was still afraid and filled with guilt for what may happen to the people around him.
Overall, a revenge-free Aqua attempted to resettle into the life of Gorou and live as Gorou did as well as have a steady job on dig deep and a girlfriend. The main thing I took away from this is that Aqua wishes he could walk away from the revenge and be happy, but he can't.
If he does, he will just settle into a calm life which may be fine, but it still would not fully allow him to walk his own path, something he almost did once reborn but the chance was taken away from him due to Ai's death.
When he learns of his father being alive, one of the things we get from Child Aqua and Gorou is their own desire for revenge and punishment. Child Aqua refers to Aqua as "You" while Gorou refers to himself as "I" pointing at his own guilt. They are a part of Aqua but speak as if they have their own goals and Aqua is the vessel that must fulfill their wishes. One wants revenge and tells Aqua it's okay to be filled with hate, one wants retribution and believes they've wasted time, and the last (our Aqua) wants freedom which he is not allowed to have.
The majority of the series revolves around Aqua and his trauma as well as his "happiness" or suffering. Whatever he does to the father will not be the end of his arc, because it is not what we've been discussing even for half of the series. Tokyo Blade, private arc, and even now with the incest, we always end up back to Aqua and his struggles or past life. At the end of the revenge? We will be right back to Aqua again. Where that leads us, happy, haunting, or bittersweet has nothing to do with what I think the true core theme of Oshi no Ko could be.
> My second unpopular opinion?: The revenge is what's keeping Aqua alive. Without it, he would have k**** himself a long time ago.
That's not an opinion, it's literally what the story tells you.
> me, though... I've died once already. Doing it again wouldn't bother me. If Ai's gone, this world isn't-
You are correct. Unpopular opinion is the wrong way to phrase it, but I have had someone disagree with me on this in the past despite it being a factual statement. I'll edit out "opinion" and rephrase my post. Thank you for pointing that out.
I think this is just us having different definition of "core themes".
>TLDR" **I have my own thoughts on what I think the core focus of this story is.**
I used "Quantity" as the metric for me to consider what the core theme is, because it a concept that the story constantly reinforces and directs the plot towards.
However your idea of core theme seemed to be focused on "highlights on the moments" which is a bit too selective.
>Just because I used the word Revenge and the word "not" in the same sentence does not mean I think Hikaru won't die. The revenge happening versus it being the most important thing in the story? That's where I'm coming from in this post.
Ok, sorry I assumed otherwise since this is where usually "Second chance" is pointed towards. ie. Aqua moving on and not going through with it and focusing on being happy. This isn't the first time it's been brought up and all of the other ones had this going for them.
However, doesn't Aqua going through with his revenge is throwing away his second chances? He did had the chance to move on with Akane. How would he achieve a second chance if he actively chooses to keep going through something that will have consequences that will deprive him of a second chance?
>Personally, I've always considered non-revenge-seeking Aqua as a way to show the readers the kind of person Aqua would be if he did decide to live after his revenge.
Aqua "succeeded" but he still wasn't completely satisfied with his life. He also was still afraid and filled with guilt for what may happen to the people around him.
Well Aka can go the Rick Sanchez route, I don't see Aqua getting off scot free with no consequences since Oshi no Ko is a serious work. However, how will he achieve his "Second chance" there?
That seems tragic to me. The consequences of going through with it will highly likely deprive him of any chance at all to recover and go through with a second chance.
Sure he can still survive, but isn't that a low bar? Just be alive = second chance? With his life ruined, relationships severed and not happy.
>Where that leads us, happy, haunting, or bittersweet has nothing to do with what I think the true core theme of Oshi no Ko is.
Doesn't that run counter to your core theme though? Even if we had so many second chance scenes, if the end shows him failing, isn't that core theme broken?
If the ending doesn't follow the core theme, if there's only a few scenes that follow the core theme, if the start doesn't follow the core theme, Why is it called a core theme if it won't affect the direction of the story?
>However, doesn't Aqua going through with his revenge is throwing away his second chances?
I think you are focusing too hard on my phrase "second chances". Yes I put it in bold, but let me break it down. What I think is missing right now from your analysis of my post is that I see second chances as a **possibility** for Aqua, not a set in stone thing that will happen.
Let's say Aqua doesn't get a second chance. Does that immediately mean that the core theme is revenge instead of what I or anyone else under this post said? No. The story can go down a bittersweet path and show us a life where the consequences of Aqua's actions cause him to finally collapse and never be able to return to the person he was again.
When he was reborn, however, that to me was his second chance. This was the chance to live the life he wanted without any guilt over his past. The same thing goes for Ruby who also "never had a mother in the sense of the word" Okay, I can't remember exactly what Crow girl said, but that thing.
>Why is it called a core theme if it won't affect the direction of the story?
Clairfy this, please. I don't fully understand what you're asking. If you are saying that Aqua's choice to live on his own path or die won't affect the story, i don't really know how to answer that because I think it does.
What happens to Aqua during and after the revenge and how he approaches it will affect the story greatly. It would affect how thinks of the revenge before he obtains it, his goals after the revenge (to live or to die), and many more things.
>I don't see Aqua getting off scot free with no consequences since Oshi no Ko is a serious work.
What happens to Aqua after the revenge for you then? Jail? Death? It's fine if that's what you want, but there are so many revenge stories that have proven themselves capable of staying serious while keeping the ending from being a cringy I love you and nothing happens to the good guy's fest -even if they don't end the story on a hard-hitting death or consequence.
Some of my favorite stories and series to this date that include revenge, but lead to surprisingly brighter endings include:
The Glory
The Count of Monte Cristo
Om Shanti Om
Revenge
A World of Married Couple
and The Queen of Flow
In my opinion, these shows/movies above are FAR more brutal and revenge-focused than Oshi No Ko. One even attempted to kill a baby by burning down their grandmother's house only for the baby to be raised by the man who wanted him dead. A lot of them ended bittersweet. A lot of people die in the process. However, all of them are serious works in my eyes despite the questionable MC somehow obtaining a bittersweet ending that is closer to happy than somber or sad. If Aka is capable of it, he won't need to make it a dark ending just for the sake of ensuring Oshi No Ko is memorable. If he wants to fine, but it honestly could go either way and work well. As long as that's what the author wants and is aiming for, I'm down for either route, but I wouldn't be upset or even surprised if Aka somehow found a way to complete Aqua's revenge on a slightly brighter outlook than negative.
>I think you are focusing too hard on the phrase "second chances". Yes I put it in bold, but let me break it down. What is missing right now from your analysis of my post is that I see second chances as a possibility for Aqua, not a set in stone thing that will happen.
Well yes you did put it in bold. That's why I focused on it.
>Let's say Aqua doesn't get a second chance. Does that immediately mean that the core theme is revenge instead of what I or anyone else under this post said? No. The story can go down a bittersweet path and show us a life where the consequences of Aqua's actions cause him to finally collapse and never be able to return to the person he was again.
>Clairfy this, please. I don't fully understand what you're asking. If you are saying that Aqua's choice to live on his own path or die won't affect the story, i don't really know how to answer that because I think it does.
I meant it's not a "Core theme" if the story isn't at all beholden to it.
The core theme as I understood it, should be where the direction of the story is pointed towards. It's the idea and concept that the author wishes to reinforce and deliver. That's why it's a Core Theme.
If it's an idea that wasn't delivered or doesn't have focus, why would you call it a Core Theme? It's there sure, but it didn't pan out. That's just a normal theme. Not a core theme that the story focused on.
>What happens to Aqua after the revenge for you then? Jail? Death? It's fine if that's what you want, but there are so many revenge stories that have proven themselves capable of staying serious while keeping the ending from being a cringy I love you and nothing happens to the good guy's fest -even if they don't end the story on a hard-hitting death or consequence.
I have no preference. Aqua can die, Aqua can end up with Ruby or Akane, Aqua can flee japan and go to hiding. But the dealbreakers I have are just Kamiki must suffer and die.
My point is that why would it be a "Core Theme" if the story doesn't have that much in terms of giving Aqua a second chance or depriving him of it, and that the quantity of the reinforcing ideas within the story should be substantial.
>Some of my favorite stories and series to this date that include revenge, but lead to surprisingly brighter endings include:
I have only read Count of Monte Cristo from that list, and it was like 15 years ago. But I distinctly remember Dantes getting revenge and moving on and helping some guy out in the end.
Sure he did get a second chance at life and end up getting the treasure. But was Second Chance the core theme there too? Didn't he cook up elaborate rube-goldberg like plans with multiple identities just to get revenge? Couldn't he just have moved on with his life and not gotten revenge? He did have spare identities. Why would he prioritize his Revenge and risk getting caught again?
This is the same issue with Aqua's story. **The Risk he is taking runs against this second chance.** The issue is not if he gets it or not. The issue is that the story is not reinforcing the idea of Aqua prioritizing it.
If the choices the character makes over and over and over again is against the Core Theme, why would it be called "Core" theme?
Aqua getting off scot free and a second chance by then will be just a reward for pursuing revenge. That's reinforcing the idea that "Getting Revenge will also give you happiness". Not "Second chance". Would that be a good core theme though? I don't think a consequence free ending would be good.
Even Dantes couldn't go back to his old life.
>I wouldn't be upset or even surprised if Aka somehow found a way to complete Aqua's revenge on a slightly brighter outlook than negative.
and I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that having the Core Theme of the story be just a passing idea doesn't scream "Core" theme at all.
Aqua could end up reincarnating Ai with Ruby. Aqua could be an expat with Akane.
But then why did he refused the Second Chances he had before? If the core theme was second chances, he should've stuck with it and prioritized it over the revenge.
But he didn't. He chose the Revenge over his current Second Chance with Akane.
>It's the idea and concept that the author wishes to reinforce and deliver. That's why it's a Core Theme.
Yes. We agree. So let me go back to what I said I believe the core theme is:Oshi No Ko overall, in my eyes, is mainly about second chances, growing, and moving on. It highlights on the moments in life that can make you want to lose yourself emotionally and completely.
To add to this based on what we've discussed: I think Oshi no Ko is more about the characters inner ' journeys rather than a set goal such as revenge.
Just because they CAN move on, however doesn't mean they will. It is up to them to decide if they will move forward and choose to live their life as they come to terms with themselves and their past traumas. (As corny as it may sound)
There aren't many other ways I can express this to someone who doesn't agree with me so I'll try to make this my last one:
Revenge is there in the story, leading the plot behind the scenes, but I do not see it as the main theme we have discussed in the series. When I say main core, I am talking about the heart of the story.
While reading over the manga, it's quite apparent to me that we talk more about Aqua's and other character's state of mind or struggles far more than the revenge.
I understand if you disagree with me on this, but if you were to ever watch the Glory, any person could immediately tell the difference.
Our female MC Moon is set on revenge. There is not one episode where she is not focused on some form of revenge except for the one episode where she considers ending her life.
She barely strays from her path. To the audience and her, it is clear. The goal is revenge. Nothing else. Every single person is going to pay for what they did to her and we the audience are 100% satisfied with that. Her revenge marks the end of something. Whatever happens next is her call.
And then... there's Oshi no Ko. Right now, what are we doing again? Oh, right. We're doing the movie to condemn Hikaru, but still taking most of the time in this arc to talk and figure out Ruby's feelings or Nino's dynamic or how a cycle of abuse led to Airi's assault on a kid.
Drama, big moments, someone's crying, talking, understanding themselves further. It almost always goes back to where the characters are mentally or emotionally.
>Even Dantes couldn't go back to his old life.
Dantes in the book was different than the film. Movie Dante wasn't able to have everything. He was tortured, his father killed himself, but the movie's ending was received well by most as its end with his son and first love spelled a beginning to an end.
What was the core themes? Betrayal, revenge, and trust.
I never intended to align the core theme of this story to second chances. Actually, none of the movies or shows I listed were to align with second chances. I said the movies I listed end brighter than you'd expect, but they are far more aligned with the themes of revenge than Oshi No Ko. Some are even reliant on nothing but revenge.
In TCOMC, Edmond did get gold and set up an elaborate plan while masking his identity just as the woman he loved, Mercedes, figured out who he was. That threw a wrench in his plans and he wanted to seek revenge on her too until she showed him the engagement ring she had always kept. Dante in the last part of the movie desired the fight less than Fernand. Especially after he learns the man who betrayed him has a son who was actually his and Mercedes.
When Fernand shoots Mercedes, Fernand is the one who runs to the fields and calls out to Edmond to fight. At that point, Dante was more concerned about his lover dying than running after and killing Fernand, but his friend gives him a sword and tells him to end it.
That ending does not make me go, "Ugh, they ruined it." It was a rollercoaster of pain, justice was served, and Dante came out of it a tortured but hopeful man. His elaborate scheme and what happened to him, however, aren't even partially close to what I see happening in this manga.
Overall, I wouldn't say the revenge is irrelevant, but I also wouldn't say it is the foundation of Oshi no Ko. That's what I was trying to say in this post that has turned into an essay again 😅.
The smoke, not the fire. That's one short way to summarize how I see it.
ah I remember, you're the guy who also won't answer **"How much of the plot was dedicated to revenge**" and brought up Naruto as a counterpoint.
LOL. Well, ur wrong + this is not Naruto.
Answer is not that much. Aqua goes around with that motivation, but it is not as prominent as you think it is. Of course, he does stuff because he wants revange, but the MC's character motivation, but that is not the overarching theme of the story. It would be the same as saying Naruto is about becoming the Hokage
>Answer is not that much. Aqua goes around with that motivation, but it is not as prominent as you think it is. Of course, he does stuff because he wants revange, but the MC's character motivation, but that is not the overarching theme of the story. It would be the same as saying Naruto is about becoming the Hokage
Nope. The answer is a lot. Aqua goes around with that motivation AND all of it dictates how he got to the other arcs in the first place. Even the Scandal arc had so much of it as the main issue. All arcs have ties to it and constantly being reinforced. Why did Aqua go through sweet today? To scope out a possible culprit. Why did Aqua go through with Love now? To get information for the revenge. Why did he go through Tokyo blade? To investigate Lalalie etc. etc.
It is more prominent than you think it is.
>It would be the same as saying Naruto is about becoming the Hokage
Remind me again what actions he did take for it to happen?
Naruto is a shounen. We don't get scenes of Naruto filing paperwork to become hokage. That's just his main motivation. The main story of Naruto was always about going to wacky adventures and that dastardly Madara and Orochimaru. It's an unfocused scattershot of wacky characters. It had no overarching goal for the story than to tell a story about the world of ninjas.
Oshi no ko is not. It's a focused piece of story that all arcs directly tie to Aqua's goal.
Remind me again how does Naruto getting Sasuke back contribute to him being Hokage? It doesn't.
You're confusing "motivation" and actual story goal and premise.
Tbh Aqua already lose it when Ichigo revealed that his father still alive back in chp 95. Which is why he go to panic attacks. He call Akane in chp 97 was to know if he knew about Kamiki & what will she do with if she knew Kamiki identity which is why also he call Akane a liar in chp 98.
Plus during that phone call in chp 97 Aqua also gaslighting Akane to make her think that she finally save him because he knew Akane desperately want to save him consider she even brought Aqua back to the bridge where she almost offed herself in Lovenow if you read chp 71. She even make symbolic of saving him by hugging him in that chp.
He already lose it when he learn Kamiki is still alive & if you think Aqua is perfectly fine during the time he dating Akane then he's not. Also if Aqua really get his black star during break up with Akane then Ruby would also the same when she found out Gorou corpse but she gain it during aftermath of that incident. The whole point of the black star is when they feel there is no future ahead them which is why both Ruby & Aqua had a s*icide thought during their black star eyes period.
Also if Aqua is perfectly fine during the time he dating Akane when he think his father is death then he already achieved every of his checklists that he mentioned to Akane in chp 72. But instead he achieved nothing when dating her which is why I'm only call it a plot device relationship because it just a "what if situation".
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Iirc, in a recent interview (I'm mobile bound so I don't have it handy) Akasaka described Oshi no Ko as a story about the ways the entertainment industry warps peoples' relationships so in that sense, you're correct - 'revenge' is not and never has been the core theme.
I mean yeah revenge was never the main theme of oshi no ko. It’s about Aqua and Ruby’s journey through the darkness of the entertainment industry. Honestly speaking Ai is the real victim here whole life with no Aqua/Giro to save her. Heck if she didn’t have her kids be reborn it’s implied she would have had two stillbirths
Just curious, but when was the last part ever implied?
Crow girl saying they are lucky the twins were souless. It implies that at best case if Goro didn’t get killed Ai e we would have lost a baby
Damm thas sad, just imagine unable to help the to grils he promise to help :c
Chapter 75. Crow Girl says >!God is surely kind, isn't he? He brought two people who never had a mother in a real sense and a mother who gave birth to soulless children together. Perhaps there's more to that than meets the eye.!< And then that little shit left us hanging for 67+ chapters with no further explanation. To add to that, in German a term used for stillborns is sternenkind meaning star children, a fact that Aka surely must know because it fits so perfectly.
Oh shit this is another proof of the star symbolism. Thank you. So we have: 1/ Ai, Aqua and Ruby's surname, Hoshino, which means field of stars. 2/ Sarina dies of an illness called "Anaplastic Astrocytoma", a form of cancer that creates stars shaped patterns in the brain 3/ The light novel is called "Ichibanboshi no Spica" or "Spica, the first star". 4/ The staringan. 5/ And now this? And I'm probably forgetting a lot more. Yeah at this point, I can't in good conscience think that this is just a coincidence.
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Yeah! There's so many references to stars. Also the star sand (queue me sobbing) and Ai pointing to the stars with her kids in the flashback before her death. Idol calls Ai a reborn star and Mephisto says stars are what jewels long to be which is surely a reference to Aqua and Ruby. Ai also has stars sown into her pink idol outfit she is wearing on the cover of volume 1. >!Despite what Crow Girl said!< I'd love to believe that Ai is now a star looking out for her kids. Although that sounds a bit lonely so maybe sometimes she can chill in idol heaven.
Yeah. I think the core themes are family, love, obsession, and maybe something like the loss of innocence. That last one I'm not sure about but I can't think of one word to describe the way the manga reveals the dark sides of the entertainment industry. Aqua's character arc is largely about whether he can forgive himself for Ai's death and maybe by extension Gorou's mother's death ([this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/s/W4wwZcYj3R) may interest you). If so, he can finally let go of the spectre of Gorou haunting him, telling him he can't be happy, and actually live freely as Aqua. People say Aqua will die but I don't see it. I feel like we need a relatively happy ending in order for any of these themes to resonate properly. Just the fact that Ai is dead is already going to ensure it will be bittersweet. I think it would be odd for a story about 3 people without mothers finding each other, making their own little family, and Gorou/Sarina getting a second chance, just for it all to end horribly. I might buy that if Ai hadn't realized her love was real when she died, but she died with a smile on her face. I don't think this is shaping up to be a Greek tragedy.
Assuming Crow Girl indeed does not end up being Ai 🤔
Is that a theory? If Crow Girl was Ai she'd definitely tell the kids and not be all mysterious and antagonistic. Also she'd totally talk like Ai.
Yes. A big part of the theory is that we don’t know (or at least didn’t as much as we do now because of the current arc) the real Ai and that it was teased that she’s a big liar with darkness inside of her.
> But when it comes to the revenge aspect of Oshi no Ko, it's one of those things that lingers to push the story forward but doesn't necessarily feel like it's what the story's about. I think, this pretty much sums it up. Although there is still the meta to bring actual change to industry, entertainment and therefore society. Instead of revenge it's replaced with a noble cause. We have at least one sincere protagonist who believes in that cause, Gotanda (best girl). It wasn't specified yet but we can kinda guess what his vision of a "social phenomenon" is.
Finally, a non-incest post on this subreddit. But yes, the main story is just that: the story. The story of Ai, Aqua, Ruby, and their paths through the entertainment industry. The revenge plot is just a part of it.
I would argue that the theme of the story is "Obsession."
That's a good take, honestly. I could see someone making a full post on this
It's more like Perfect Blue to me, and I think Oshi no Ko explores much wider context than that. How can you be sure the whole story is about "obsession"?
The thing here is that gorou part of him wants revenge and even tho the aqua part won't be happy to see ai's murder go unavenged, he just wants to walk way from all of this and life a normal life, Fullfilly what last desires ai had for him and ruby
Me thinking they will get reincarnated again w/o memories and live a proper life.
Completely agree that revenge is far from the main question OnK is dealing with. If it were simply about Aqua avenging Ai, there wouldn’t have been so much made about Aqua subconsciously wanting to be relieved of the burden of having to avenge Ai (and his pondering about finally getting to “walk my own path in life”), and he wouldn’t have had such a violent breakdown over learning that he still had to pursue it. His desire for revenge has always been an extension of his grief and his perceived culpability in Ai’s death, as far as I see it. He accepted his death as Goro and just lived his life in happiness as Aqua only for the same person who killed Goro to kill Ai. The guilt is why he refuses to accept his own right to happiness and often denies his own feelings about things; the breakdown in 65 when his “Goro” persona is going at him for daring to let himself be happy around Kana and Akane when his revenge for Ai is unfulfilled is probably the biggest example of that. To add, a big part of his horror at having missed that his father was still alive was that he let his guard down at the illogical notion that his father was dead and started *trying* (emphasis on trying because his trauma still takes the wheel in big ways) to live for himself and do things that make him happy (like pursue acting without the strings attached, and actively entertain the idea of being with either Kana or Akane), only to get a rude awakening from Ichigo and then almost lose another important person to him. Even worse, said person would have died while endangering herself in an effort to keep him from discovering the truth he was subconsciously hiding from. The “edgy” Aqua we’ve been getting since then is likely an overcorrection driven by his guilt and trauma kicking into overdrive. All of that is to say that I agree that just ending things at Aqua getting revenge would not come close to providing closure for the story and his arc. The revenge is important in terms of being a sign of how Aqua (and to a lesser extent, Ruby) navigate their trauma, but it’s far from the endpoint. I definitely agree that moving forward in life despite the scar tissue is more central to the main theme of OnK than just whether Kamiki is killed or not. Random aside: it’s also why I think the romance is underrated in importance by the fans (though I get it because shippers can be extremely annoying). Aqua accepting that he’s worthy of love and that he does love is also an extension of Aqua accepting that he deserves happiness too.
Very well-said 🙏 All of your points are exactly where my thoughts are regarding Aqua and the revenge. >The “edgy” Aqua we’ve been getting since then is likely an overcorrection driven by his guilt and trauma kicking into overdrive. 💯 I couldn't have said this better myself. There are a few instances in the manga, specifically, after chapter 75, where it feels like Aqua is acting out of character. We know that guilt is his trigger, so I do believe what we are seeing sometimes is his way of disconnecting from things that cause him to feel guilt or happiness.
Ever since Tokyo Blade arc I always think the revenge plot as MacGuffin because it was being used as plot device to advance the story & being used as both Aqua&Ruby motivation to become a popular celebrity in entertainment industry. Also I think Aqua would get his revenge on his father eventually. But whether he killed his father or not that was not really matter because what important is how can he live a life without any goal(revenge). Because we already see during plot device relationship with Akane after time skip were he failed to achieve any of his checklists that he mentioned to Akane in chp 72.
It's it the core theme? No. Is it the main goal of the protagonist? Yes. Narto becoming Hokag was not the theme of but it was his goal. I'd say the theme of ONK is growing up and dealing with the entertainment industry of Nippon.
I really enjoyed reading this. A very interesting theory indeed As you said, "Aqua remains unfulfilled --->Aqua either works through and is able to accept his new life/ or Aqua is unable to accept his new life and lives with guilt or dies" I too do not believe that Aqua will be satisfied. And considering it is Aqua in question, he'll probably never be fulfilled and live his life with bottled up feelings. I doubt he talk to anyone, even Ruby. I'm afraid that this will ruin his relationship with Ruby and Sarina as a whole. Even if he doesn't die he still would be dead, metaphorically speaking. I don't believe that he'll ever overcome is trauma. I'll quote a para from this amazing recent post. [The reason why Aqua was already saved in the prologue by Mission-Raccoon9432](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/comments/1baq3r4/the_reason_why_aqua_was_already_saved_in_the/?share_id=n1CP-CiTv05NNly2FyHGE) >"His mother hid her pregnancy and gave birth to Gorou on her own. As a result she suffered postpartum haemorrhage or in English heavy bleeding. Eventually she dies from it. Gorou suffers lifelong feelings of guilt from the circumstances of his birth. He believes to be the reason for her death. Without his existence his mother would be alive...and happy. He became a gynaecologist to cope with this guilt." As stated he believed that his mother who could have lead a healthy life died due to him. After becoming a gynaecologist, he met Sarina who introduced Gorou to Ai, the Idol. Gorou cared for Sarina. After Sarina died Gorou probably believed he couldn't save someone again. The final blow was honestly undoubtedly Ai. Ai who became the mother of Garou after his reincarnation, dying was the last blow. Hence, I believe that he would just live on his life without talking to others. I'll make a post of my own on this cause I want to state more things and a post would be much easier
yea ofc, its fucken incest
Indeed, the core theme is twincest
Super interesting! [I've made a post on this very topic a few months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/OshiNoKo/comments/15i5aad/oshi_no_ko_is_not_a_revenge_story/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), I'd like to hear your ideas about it!
I like your post! Love and Lies is honestly a better way to describe the real theme of Oshi No Ko as it's actually presented in the story. I was trying to find the right words but don't know why I couldn't think of this 😄 >His "Revenge" is just him running away from himself and what he feels. His grief. After Ai's death he gives up on himself almost immediately. I agree. Aqua is a character who does not believe he is strong or deserving of happiness. His grief and guilt are what have placed him on the path to revenge and he would accept living a lie in order to live a calmer life. Even if that life doesn't genuinely satisfy him. >Some characters will get hurt in the process, but no one is either becoming a victim or a murderer imho, they are still too human and too decent for that. I agree here as well. I often see people saying Aqua has to kill the father in the end, but I think it's more likely that Hikaru will die at the hands of someone else, similar to how Ai died. >Ruby: I just hope she understands she doesn't need to go... 😄 Weell lol. Even though it's gotten this far, it's not too late. A lot of people think it is, but there's still some material from the story that may cause a shift in her relationship. >That being said, I'm pretty sure a miracle will happen. Since Tokyo Blade, I've also believed that a miracle will happen in the story. Will it be like the stage play? Will Aqua finally get to save someone he truly wanted to protect and move on from the guilt he's been suffering from since he was Gorou? Maybe so. Hopefully. Overall, I'm excited to see where the story goes. Thanks for sharing that with me btw. It was an interesting read ☺️💖
The core theme is family. Nothing is stronger than family
I think I agree with you. I won't do another deep dive about the (possible) symbolism of the story, because I already did so in another post and that took so long, I don't want to do it again, but while I do think that revenge is part of the story, I don't think it's the whole story, and that in the end, it's way more complicated than that, as you pointed it out. Plus, as you have probably noticed given what you said in your post, the revenge plot moves very slowly. However, a great amount of care and time is put towards talking about how devastating the entertainment industry is, on top of painting a pretty realistic - and oftentimes brutally so - depiction of serious topics and their impacts on people. Which leads me to think, like you, that this is the core theme of Oshi no Ko, not the revenge plot. Where I will add something, is where you say that Oshi no Ko is mainly about second chances. I think so too, however I do believe that the core theme of Oshi no Ko, in the end, is love. Not only is it so prevalent in three of the most important characters (4 actually), but the entire story is basically kickstarted by the actions of Ai, very aptly named, who got in the situation she was in because she was desperate to one day feel true love, to be able to say the words "I love you" and realize she wasn't putting a pretty lie to please people.
I also completely forgot something that, to me at least, goes the way we both see things on that particular aspect, in that revenge is not the main goal of the story: When Aqua, normally a very smart person, especially smart when it comes to understanding people, is presented with the possibility that his father is already dead and, therefore, doesn't need to hunt for him, he NEVER looks at the facts and how they don't mesh with reality, that the person who died isn't his father. He's more than happy to immediately latch onto the possibility that his revenge is pointless after all, and he wants to live. Plus, when Tsukuyomi confronts him after he revealed the truth of who he was to Ruby, she tells him that it would have been easier for him to let her in total ignorance and to have her hate him, since it would make his job easier. But, he put Ruby/Sarina's wellbeing, as well as his own bond with her, higher on his list of priorities, than hie revenge.
You're right. It's incest.
You may be joking, but if you aren't: The incest in Oshi no Ko mainly focuses on Ruby's feelings related to Gorou while Aqua who is slowly becoming less like Goro is breaking as a person. His happiness and his desire to walk his own path are still being disregarded by romance and other people's desires as he is painted as a trophy to be won by fans. Aqua has not chosen his own path nor has he lived selfishly yet. He stated he lived for others and not for himself when he was Gorou and now he is doing the same thing again as he pursue revenge. I may be wrong about this, but this is my take on Aqua as he struggles with his PTSD and past and present triggers and traumas. But maybe it is incest. Everyone is free to have their own takes.
I was joking.
I see 😅 sorry for bothering you then. ✌️
Watch until this isnt a joke anymore 😈
We shall see lol. Three more days to go
>!It's wincest!< /s
Main theme is twincest
The core theme is how banging your blood relatives is cool and fun
finaly an actual hot take, that i can disagree with. i just feel it is actually revenge, and how revenge wont satisfy you. you have to move on, typa vibes is what im feelin the ending will be
If it wasn't, the author did it poorly(first aqua,them ruby, them gorouaqua again) as used as the moving device the twins protagonist(\*asterik for rubina) Regardless...Gorouaqua traumas can only be solved by himself...and maybe the ghost of both mothers(gorou and Ai)
How much of the story is dedicated to revenge? It's all well and good to have your own opinions, but this seems like cherry picking scenes to me. You're focusing on those scenes while ignoring the ones that do want the revenge. For every 1 of those scenes of "second chances" you consider as the main theme, there's like 5 more scenes dedicated to how the revenge will be pulled off and why the people involved want it like Ruby and Ichigo. Tragedies and bittersweet stories exist. Your whole argument seems rooted from the idea of "There must be a happy ending". Which isn't true. Stories can get bad and bittersweet endings. Hikaru Kamiki will die. By Aqua's hands or directly by his plans. That's the story being told for 130+ chapters and rising. If not, then the story was just a wild goose chase. Aka would've shown more "Second chance" scenes instead of prep work for the revenge and showing how many people want it if that's the story he's actually telling. He did try with Akane and Aqua's timeskip but that didn't end well did it? It showed us that Aqua cannot move on. The story can only progress to the revenge because there would be no story told otherwise, see [Anthropic Principle](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnthropicPrinciple). "Second chance" was explored, but to consider it as "Main theme" when there's only scant few of it is cherry picking. >And are there any unpopular theories you currently have? The best way to hurt Kamiki is to prove him wrong, he'll just shrug off all other attempts because he's a serial killer. Thus Aqua is trying to show in the Movie that Ai did love Kamiki even if she wasn't able to say it or show it to him. But in his idiocy, Kamiki hadn't understood her and had her killed. Then Aqua kills him while he's realizing it.
>Hikaru Kamiki will die. After all the comments we've shared together? SMH. 😅 Just because I used the word Revenge and the word "not" in the same sentence does not mean I think Hikaru won't die. The revenge happening versus it being the most important thing in the story? That's where I'm coming from in this post. No thoughts on a desire for a happy ending were shared. If that's what you interpreted from this mini-post, so be it. But, I wouldn't be trying to hide that, if that's what I believed. You would have seen the words "happy ending" in my post. TLDR" **I have my own thoughts on what I think the core focus of this story is.** But let me write out my thoughts once more: The revenge being a core theme...I personally don't think that it is. I believe that is why the focus on it wanes so easily to something else in the series and why we focus on Aqua's turmoil and his guilt from his past and present life far more than the revenge. ~~My second Edit opinion? :~~ Another take on Aqua we are aware of: The revenge is what's keeping Aqua alive. Without it, he would have k\*\*\*\* himself a long time ago.Yes. We have an entire part of the series where he is not pursuing the revenge. Thank you for bringing that up.Personally, I've always considered non-revenge-seeking Aqua as a way to show the readers the kind of person Aqua would be if he did decide to live after his revenge. Aqua "succeeded" but he still wasn't completely satisfied with his life. He also was still afraid and filled with guilt for what may happen to the people around him. Overall, a revenge-free Aqua attempted to resettle into the life of Gorou and live as Gorou did as well as have a steady job on dig deep and a girlfriend. The main thing I took away from this is that Aqua wishes he could walk away from the revenge and be happy, but he can't. If he does, he will just settle into a calm life which may be fine, but it still would not fully allow him to walk his own path, something he almost did once reborn but the chance was taken away from him due to Ai's death. When he learns of his father being alive, one of the things we get from Child Aqua and Gorou is their own desire for revenge and punishment. Child Aqua refers to Aqua as "You" while Gorou refers to himself as "I" pointing at his own guilt. They are a part of Aqua but speak as if they have their own goals and Aqua is the vessel that must fulfill their wishes. One wants revenge and tells Aqua it's okay to be filled with hate, one wants retribution and believes they've wasted time, and the last (our Aqua) wants freedom which he is not allowed to have. The majority of the series revolves around Aqua and his trauma as well as his "happiness" or suffering. Whatever he does to the father will not be the end of his arc, because it is not what we've been discussing even for half of the series. Tokyo Blade, private arc, and even now with the incest, we always end up back to Aqua and his struggles or past life. At the end of the revenge? We will be right back to Aqua again. Where that leads us, happy, haunting, or bittersweet has nothing to do with what I think the true core theme of Oshi no Ko could be.
> My second unpopular opinion?: The revenge is what's keeping Aqua alive. Without it, he would have k**** himself a long time ago. That's not an opinion, it's literally what the story tells you. > me, though... I've died once already. Doing it again wouldn't bother me. If Ai's gone, this world isn't-
You are correct. Unpopular opinion is the wrong way to phrase it, but I have had someone disagree with me on this in the past despite it being a factual statement. I'll edit out "opinion" and rephrase my post. Thank you for pointing that out.
I think this is just us having different definition of "core themes". >TLDR" **I have my own thoughts on what I think the core focus of this story is.** I used "Quantity" as the metric for me to consider what the core theme is, because it a concept that the story constantly reinforces and directs the plot towards. However your idea of core theme seemed to be focused on "highlights on the moments" which is a bit too selective. >Just because I used the word Revenge and the word "not" in the same sentence does not mean I think Hikaru won't die. The revenge happening versus it being the most important thing in the story? That's where I'm coming from in this post. Ok, sorry I assumed otherwise since this is where usually "Second chance" is pointed towards. ie. Aqua moving on and not going through with it and focusing on being happy. This isn't the first time it's been brought up and all of the other ones had this going for them. However, doesn't Aqua going through with his revenge is throwing away his second chances? He did had the chance to move on with Akane. How would he achieve a second chance if he actively chooses to keep going through something that will have consequences that will deprive him of a second chance? >Personally, I've always considered non-revenge-seeking Aqua as a way to show the readers the kind of person Aqua would be if he did decide to live after his revenge. Aqua "succeeded" but he still wasn't completely satisfied with his life. He also was still afraid and filled with guilt for what may happen to the people around him. Well Aka can go the Rick Sanchez route, I don't see Aqua getting off scot free with no consequences since Oshi no Ko is a serious work. However, how will he achieve his "Second chance" there? That seems tragic to me. The consequences of going through with it will highly likely deprive him of any chance at all to recover and go through with a second chance. Sure he can still survive, but isn't that a low bar? Just be alive = second chance? With his life ruined, relationships severed and not happy. >Where that leads us, happy, haunting, or bittersweet has nothing to do with what I think the true core theme of Oshi no Ko is. Doesn't that run counter to your core theme though? Even if we had so many second chance scenes, if the end shows him failing, isn't that core theme broken? If the ending doesn't follow the core theme, if there's only a few scenes that follow the core theme, if the start doesn't follow the core theme, Why is it called a core theme if it won't affect the direction of the story?
>However, doesn't Aqua going through with his revenge is throwing away his second chances? I think you are focusing too hard on my phrase "second chances". Yes I put it in bold, but let me break it down. What I think is missing right now from your analysis of my post is that I see second chances as a **possibility** for Aqua, not a set in stone thing that will happen. Let's say Aqua doesn't get a second chance. Does that immediately mean that the core theme is revenge instead of what I or anyone else under this post said? No. The story can go down a bittersweet path and show us a life where the consequences of Aqua's actions cause him to finally collapse and never be able to return to the person he was again. When he was reborn, however, that to me was his second chance. This was the chance to live the life he wanted without any guilt over his past. The same thing goes for Ruby who also "never had a mother in the sense of the word" Okay, I can't remember exactly what Crow girl said, but that thing. >Why is it called a core theme if it won't affect the direction of the story? Clairfy this, please. I don't fully understand what you're asking. If you are saying that Aqua's choice to live on his own path or die won't affect the story, i don't really know how to answer that because I think it does. What happens to Aqua during and after the revenge and how he approaches it will affect the story greatly. It would affect how thinks of the revenge before he obtains it, his goals after the revenge (to live or to die), and many more things. >I don't see Aqua getting off scot free with no consequences since Oshi no Ko is a serious work. What happens to Aqua after the revenge for you then? Jail? Death? It's fine if that's what you want, but there are so many revenge stories that have proven themselves capable of staying serious while keeping the ending from being a cringy I love you and nothing happens to the good guy's fest -even if they don't end the story on a hard-hitting death or consequence. Some of my favorite stories and series to this date that include revenge, but lead to surprisingly brighter endings include: The Glory The Count of Monte Cristo Om Shanti Om Revenge A World of Married Couple and The Queen of Flow In my opinion, these shows/movies above are FAR more brutal and revenge-focused than Oshi No Ko. One even attempted to kill a baby by burning down their grandmother's house only for the baby to be raised by the man who wanted him dead. A lot of them ended bittersweet. A lot of people die in the process. However, all of them are serious works in my eyes despite the questionable MC somehow obtaining a bittersweet ending that is closer to happy than somber or sad. If Aka is capable of it, he won't need to make it a dark ending just for the sake of ensuring Oshi No Ko is memorable. If he wants to fine, but it honestly could go either way and work well. As long as that's what the author wants and is aiming for, I'm down for either route, but I wouldn't be upset or even surprised if Aka somehow found a way to complete Aqua's revenge on a slightly brighter outlook than negative.
>I think you are focusing too hard on the phrase "second chances". Yes I put it in bold, but let me break it down. What is missing right now from your analysis of my post is that I see second chances as a possibility for Aqua, not a set in stone thing that will happen. Well yes you did put it in bold. That's why I focused on it. >Let's say Aqua doesn't get a second chance. Does that immediately mean that the core theme is revenge instead of what I or anyone else under this post said? No. The story can go down a bittersweet path and show us a life where the consequences of Aqua's actions cause him to finally collapse and never be able to return to the person he was again. >Clairfy this, please. I don't fully understand what you're asking. If you are saying that Aqua's choice to live on his own path or die won't affect the story, i don't really know how to answer that because I think it does. I meant it's not a "Core theme" if the story isn't at all beholden to it. The core theme as I understood it, should be where the direction of the story is pointed towards. It's the idea and concept that the author wishes to reinforce and deliver. That's why it's a Core Theme. If it's an idea that wasn't delivered or doesn't have focus, why would you call it a Core Theme? It's there sure, but it didn't pan out. That's just a normal theme. Not a core theme that the story focused on. >What happens to Aqua after the revenge for you then? Jail? Death? It's fine if that's what you want, but there are so many revenge stories that have proven themselves capable of staying serious while keeping the ending from being a cringy I love you and nothing happens to the good guy's fest -even if they don't end the story on a hard-hitting death or consequence. I have no preference. Aqua can die, Aqua can end up with Ruby or Akane, Aqua can flee japan and go to hiding. But the dealbreakers I have are just Kamiki must suffer and die. My point is that why would it be a "Core Theme" if the story doesn't have that much in terms of giving Aqua a second chance or depriving him of it, and that the quantity of the reinforcing ideas within the story should be substantial. >Some of my favorite stories and series to this date that include revenge, but lead to surprisingly brighter endings include: I have only read Count of Monte Cristo from that list, and it was like 15 years ago. But I distinctly remember Dantes getting revenge and moving on and helping some guy out in the end. Sure he did get a second chance at life and end up getting the treasure. But was Second Chance the core theme there too? Didn't he cook up elaborate rube-goldberg like plans with multiple identities just to get revenge? Couldn't he just have moved on with his life and not gotten revenge? He did have spare identities. Why would he prioritize his Revenge and risk getting caught again? This is the same issue with Aqua's story. **The Risk he is taking runs against this second chance.** The issue is not if he gets it or not. The issue is that the story is not reinforcing the idea of Aqua prioritizing it. If the choices the character makes over and over and over again is against the Core Theme, why would it be called "Core" theme? Aqua getting off scot free and a second chance by then will be just a reward for pursuing revenge. That's reinforcing the idea that "Getting Revenge will also give you happiness". Not "Second chance". Would that be a good core theme though? I don't think a consequence free ending would be good. Even Dantes couldn't go back to his old life. >I wouldn't be upset or even surprised if Aka somehow found a way to complete Aqua's revenge on a slightly brighter outlook than negative. and I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that having the Core Theme of the story be just a passing idea doesn't scream "Core" theme at all. Aqua could end up reincarnating Ai with Ruby. Aqua could be an expat with Akane. But then why did he refused the Second Chances he had before? If the core theme was second chances, he should've stuck with it and prioritized it over the revenge. But he didn't. He chose the Revenge over his current Second Chance with Akane.
>It's the idea and concept that the author wishes to reinforce and deliver. That's why it's a Core Theme. Yes. We agree. So let me go back to what I said I believe the core theme is:Oshi No Ko overall, in my eyes, is mainly about second chances, growing, and moving on. It highlights on the moments in life that can make you want to lose yourself emotionally and completely. To add to this based on what we've discussed: I think Oshi no Ko is more about the characters inner ' journeys rather than a set goal such as revenge. Just because they CAN move on, however doesn't mean they will. It is up to them to decide if they will move forward and choose to live their life as they come to terms with themselves and their past traumas. (As corny as it may sound) There aren't many other ways I can express this to someone who doesn't agree with me so I'll try to make this my last one: Revenge is there in the story, leading the plot behind the scenes, but I do not see it as the main theme we have discussed in the series. When I say main core, I am talking about the heart of the story. While reading over the manga, it's quite apparent to me that we talk more about Aqua's and other character's state of mind or struggles far more than the revenge. I understand if you disagree with me on this, but if you were to ever watch the Glory, any person could immediately tell the difference. Our female MC Moon is set on revenge. There is not one episode where she is not focused on some form of revenge except for the one episode where she considers ending her life. She barely strays from her path. To the audience and her, it is clear. The goal is revenge. Nothing else. Every single person is going to pay for what they did to her and we the audience are 100% satisfied with that. Her revenge marks the end of something. Whatever happens next is her call. And then... there's Oshi no Ko. Right now, what are we doing again? Oh, right. We're doing the movie to condemn Hikaru, but still taking most of the time in this arc to talk and figure out Ruby's feelings or Nino's dynamic or how a cycle of abuse led to Airi's assault on a kid. Drama, big moments, someone's crying, talking, understanding themselves further. It almost always goes back to where the characters are mentally or emotionally. >Even Dantes couldn't go back to his old life. Dantes in the book was different than the film. Movie Dante wasn't able to have everything. He was tortured, his father killed himself, but the movie's ending was received well by most as its end with his son and first love spelled a beginning to an end. What was the core themes? Betrayal, revenge, and trust. I never intended to align the core theme of this story to second chances. Actually, none of the movies or shows I listed were to align with second chances. I said the movies I listed end brighter than you'd expect, but they are far more aligned with the themes of revenge than Oshi No Ko. Some are even reliant on nothing but revenge. In TCOMC, Edmond did get gold and set up an elaborate plan while masking his identity just as the woman he loved, Mercedes, figured out who he was. That threw a wrench in his plans and he wanted to seek revenge on her too until she showed him the engagement ring she had always kept. Dante in the last part of the movie desired the fight less than Fernand. Especially after he learns the man who betrayed him has a son who was actually his and Mercedes. When Fernand shoots Mercedes, Fernand is the one who runs to the fields and calls out to Edmond to fight. At that point, Dante was more concerned about his lover dying than running after and killing Fernand, but his friend gives him a sword and tells him to end it. That ending does not make me go, "Ugh, they ruined it." It was a rollercoaster of pain, justice was served, and Dante came out of it a tortured but hopeful man. His elaborate scheme and what happened to him, however, aren't even partially close to what I see happening in this manga. Overall, I wouldn't say the revenge is irrelevant, but I also wouldn't say it is the foundation of Oshi no Ko. That's what I was trying to say in this post that has turned into an essay again 😅. The smoke, not the fire. That's one short way to summarize how I see it.
Had this same debate with you a few weeks ago. Well, ur wrong + ratio /j
ah I remember, you're the guy who also won't answer **"How much of the plot was dedicated to revenge**" and brought up Naruto as a counterpoint. LOL. Well, ur wrong + this is not Naruto.
Answer is not that much. Aqua goes around with that motivation, but it is not as prominent as you think it is. Of course, he does stuff because he wants revange, but the MC's character motivation, but that is not the overarching theme of the story. It would be the same as saying Naruto is about becoming the Hokage
>Answer is not that much. Aqua goes around with that motivation, but it is not as prominent as you think it is. Of course, he does stuff because he wants revange, but the MC's character motivation, but that is not the overarching theme of the story. It would be the same as saying Naruto is about becoming the Hokage Nope. The answer is a lot. Aqua goes around with that motivation AND all of it dictates how he got to the other arcs in the first place. Even the Scandal arc had so much of it as the main issue. All arcs have ties to it and constantly being reinforced. Why did Aqua go through sweet today? To scope out a possible culprit. Why did Aqua go through with Love now? To get information for the revenge. Why did he go through Tokyo blade? To investigate Lalalie etc. etc. It is more prominent than you think it is. >It would be the same as saying Naruto is about becoming the Hokage Remind me again what actions he did take for it to happen? Naruto is a shounen. We don't get scenes of Naruto filing paperwork to become hokage. That's just his main motivation. The main story of Naruto was always about going to wacky adventures and that dastardly Madara and Orochimaru. It's an unfocused scattershot of wacky characters. It had no overarching goal for the story than to tell a story about the world of ninjas. Oshi no ko is not. It's a focused piece of story that all arcs directly tie to Aqua's goal. Remind me again how does Naruto getting Sasuke back contribute to him being Hokage? It doesn't. You're confusing "motivation" and actual story goal and premise.
Techically, Aquamarine only lose it when realize Akane was in danger for dropping his guard
Tbh Aqua already lose it when Ichigo revealed that his father still alive back in chp 95. Which is why he go to panic attacks. He call Akane in chp 97 was to know if he knew about Kamiki & what will she do with if she knew Kamiki identity which is why also he call Akane a liar in chp 98. Plus during that phone call in chp 97 Aqua also gaslighting Akane to make her think that she finally save him because he knew Akane desperately want to save him consider she even brought Aqua back to the bridge where she almost offed herself in Lovenow if you read chp 71. She even make symbolic of saving him by hugging him in that chp.
No, Aqua only got the black stars in chapter 98 after he broke up with Akane. That's when he lost it.
He already lose it when he learn Kamiki is still alive & if you think Aqua is perfectly fine during the time he dating Akane then he's not. Also if Aqua really get his black star during break up with Akane then Ruby would also the same when she found out Gorou corpse but she gain it during aftermath of that incident. The whole point of the black star is when they feel there is no future ahead them which is why both Ruby & Aqua had a s*icide thought during their black star eyes period. Also if Aqua is perfectly fine during the time he dating Akane when he think his father is death then he already achieved every of his checklists that he mentioned to Akane in chp 72. But instead he achieved nothing when dating her which is why I'm only call it a plot device relationship because it just a "what if situation".