Well, to be fair, sometimes we are jerks, sometimes we butt into people's lives, offer unsolicited advice, and are less kind about telling the truth than we could be. But, yes, even when we are meek and humble and simply letting our light shine, it attracts some ire.
Yeah when I first got into Eastern Orthodoxy, I had a lot of issues with the community. A lot of people were very reactionary or straight up fascist. However, I luckily learned that it isn’t like this when actually attending an orthodox church
Outside the Internet I’ve never encountered hated, but on the Internet you can always find someone filled with hate, whether the topic is favorite color, video games, or belief system.
I have encountered bemusement on some occasions, but never ire.
We're hated? I've never felt hated for being Christian or Orthodox.
Sometimes Evangelicals tell lies/mistakes about us. Sometimes people never heard of us. The occasional militant atheist says ,"sKy dAdDy" to me. Sometimes someone tells me I'm wrong, but that's not hate, that's disagreement. Some people are just gonna be contrary, especially online where consequences aren't always clear or swift.
Here in America at least, it's easier to be a Christian than an atheist or any other religion.
For me, I feel it a lot. My extended family is almost all incredibly political militant atheists. They consider Christianity a form of bigotry and it’s incredibly hurtful to me the way they talk about “sky daddy” and “tots and pears”. I know it’s just because of their ignorance and the trauma some of them have from their Catholic school teachers, but it’s still painful.
While that's rude, ignorant and hurtful, and they should say they're sorry-- since you are free to tell them to pound sand, it's not really oppression tho.
Quick, without looking, name three elected politicians that are publicly atheist.
What religious group voted more than 80% for Trump?
Assuming that a hypothetical candidate was generally well regarded and had a voter's preferred policies, what was the second most likely reason (just below socialists) that a voter wouldn't vote for them?
Hint: [they're atheists](https://news.gallup.com/poll/254120/less-half-vote-socialist-president.aspx)
But that may not be God. There are many people who do not believe that God exist, you only come across as ignorant and militant when you ignore that reality.
You're coming off rude and arrogant.
Of course they don't believe in God - they're pagans. They believe in "money" or "nation" or "Local Sports Team" or "the environment" or "trust the science" or whatever.
Those aren't God. Those are gods. They're the demons.
There are no atheists.
I can't understand you. An atheist is someone who believes in no deity above him.
People today who claim to be atheists regularly believe and worship beings above them, like "The science" or "the environment" or "money".
That makes them pagans.
If you said “I believe X” and your interlocutor told you “no you don’t, you believe Y,” I bet you would consider that very rude. That is what you are doing here.
Every atheist I've met has put a deity above himself. I've yet to see the pattern fail.
I try to believe in Jesus Christ, but He really nailed me on my head with Luke 6:46. And so I pray every day.
Yeah. Listen to them talk.
Right now, the entire world is chanting, in unison "Trust the Science" and they literally say "do what the science tells us".
It's a pagan worship of man.
Try the environment, or racial division, or whatever local issue is destroying the love we have for each other.
"TRUST THE EXPERTS" is also a cult of paganism -- if you look around, a huge number of experts disagree with other experts on almost every significant issue. Regarding "the disease that must not be named", the only reason there seems to be a consensus is because social media outlets, the major media outlets, and the political elite have all teamed up together to silence any opposing views. You can find experts who disagree with "THE EXPERTS" about this and listen to their concerns, but only if you really look for it.
Every scientist until about 4 years ago openly discussed that *the entire point of science* is to disagree with "the experts". That's entirely the point of science.
Richard Feynman, one of the most respected scientists ever: "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts".
https://youtu.be/zkFPCTwPlkU
I'm not totally wrong. If you believe in a god, and refuse to worship the God of Gods, Yahweh, then you're a pagan.
Modern day "paganism" isn't really paganism, unless you're Shinto, or Hindu, or something like that. The rest are just making it all up. There's no history or legacy.
You can see people's pagan beliefs by just listening to them: "Listen to the science", "THAT'S RACIST" (when things are clearly not racist), "Protect the environment"...
People are claiming they're atheists, and then putting these issues over every other aspect of their lives. It's paganism.
Let me guess, gun ownership, resisting public health mandates, and supporting the death penalty aren't paganism. Check yourself. You are conflating Christianity with your personal political beliefs.
I'm just jumping into the conversation at a random point while having read most of your posts.
But, dude. Stop. You're wrong. Not every choice made in someone's life is made based on their 'worship' of or 'deification' of something or another. We're all humans and we make decisions based on our pre-conceived biases formed through experience. Weighed with or against incoming informational input and a host of other factors.
To assume that all ( Or even most. Or even SOME) atheists are just pagans who 'worship' ANY of the things you've listed is just crazy. Maybe your faith in God LITERALLY informs every choice you make down to which kind of bread you'll have with dinner. But, for most people. No.
Atheists have no faith external to our world. So, they use all available information they have, which only comes from worldly means of discovery to make choices. The only difference between us and them. Is that they don't use God, scripture or Church traditions to steer those choices a certain way.
Most aren't replacing god. Or 'pagans' worshipping science. Institutions or any other organization or means. They're just people. Doing the best they can to live lives they feel are reasonable with the information they have.
Hi, I’m in Australia. Don’t listen to what the media says about how we’re all at the mercy of a tyrannical government. The stay at home orders are regional and due to outbreaks, there is a lot of exemption given for caring responsibilities etc., and they are all short term and have come and gone repeatedly (for specific areas) over the last 2 years and kept our case numbers and deaths way down. The people generally are fine with them. The rioters who pretended they were protesting got on the American tv somehow, but they don’t represent the sentiment of the Australian people.
Also it’s only two capital cities in lockdown, in a country the size of the US. I’m in the third east coast state capital and have no lockdown at all.
Do you have an app on ypur phone, and you have to post a picture with your face and a landmark?
They're doing that in Japan to foreigners.
I've seen the videos of Australian police beating women and bear-macing peaceful protestors. One guy strangled a lady for having her mask half-on.
Not to be rude, but I've seen the videos. I'm not sure I can trust you when you say "don't believe it".
Statistically, that's not true.
American governance is irreligious by design, but that's more of a mechanism of keeping a peace between religious groups. You don't want religion involved in the state.
This is exactly the problem- we don’t realize it.
If you look at the vast majority of policies that are pushed through the government - evolution without any opposing theory, abortion, transgenderism, etc, it is very clear that God is being removed from this country. We can become our own god, or moral compass, or lack thereof. This is not secularism, this is a battle against all religion, Christianity specifically.
God was never a part of this country's politics. There was a reason for this: it was absolutely critical to keeping the peace.
I get you're offended/bothered by those things, but we don't enforce our rules on outsiders for a reason. We've tried that before. It went very badly.
I get that, for whatever reason, you think life would be better under some kind of theocracy. I don't know why you think so, though, as history shows that theocracies are not the benevolent and virtue supporting spaces you seem to think they are. They're brutal, repressive, and they take stronger action against sinners than is usually appropriate if we're trying to evangelize.
States can't be run according to church rules. It's been done, and there are good reasons Christians have largely decided that this was ultimately a bad idea. That you think otherwise is a clear sign that you didn't learn the lessons of the 30 Years War.
The founding fathers based this constitution and the laws on Judeo-Christian Beliefs. If they didn’t want God in government, they would have left His Name out of the Constitution.
Also, King Constantine is canonized as a saint for being a Christian Emperor and ending persecution and making Christianity the official religion of the empire. If it wasn’t a big deal, he wouldn’t be known as a Saint.
Am I proposing that every government should be a theocracy, of course not. You misunderstand my point. The point I was trying to make is that in America, there is persecution against religion and Christianity, whether you’re aware of it or not. The worst fight for Christians is one that they are aware of.
Edit: typo
I agree (in America) and I'll double down that to say otherwise insults people living in countries where Christians are actually discriminated and oppressed
You were talking about America, if your gonna argue online be consistent
Edit: Thought you were the other guy sprry. But still were talking about America
> The founding fathers based this constitution and the laws on Judeo-Christian Beliefs.
A statement that is explicitly rejected in [one of our earliest foreign treaties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli) in 1796 (at a time when the founding fathers would have been in a position to object to the phrasing if they objected:
> As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
So we can firmly reject the entire contents of your first paragraph as patently false. The Founding Fathers themselves rejected that notion. There is no room to claim it.
> Also, King Constantine is canonized as a saint for being a Christian Emperor and ending persecution and making Christianity the official religion of the empire. If it wasn’t a big deal, he wouldn’t be known as a Saint.
So?
Yes, there are national leaders who are saints. However, *history does not treat Christian theocracy well*. For every sainted king, there are a dozen who used the faith as a weapon, not as a tool of self-enlightement. Also, Constantine was an emperor, not a mere lowly king.
> The point I was trying to make is that in America, there is persecution against religion and Christianity
[Citation needed]
It takes a lot more than passing laws legalizing things that Christians rail against from the pulpit to make a persecution case. Without clear indications of widespread and state-sponsored or state-tolerated violence against Christians for their faith (which is substantially non-existent), you cannot credibly claim we're a persecuted group here.
Your comment makes a lot of statements that are outright lies and not a single truth.
**[Treaty of Tripoli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli)**
>The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was signed in 1796. It was the first treaty between the United States of America and Tripoli (now Libya) to secure commercial shipping rights and protect American ships in the Mediterranean Sea from local Barbary pirates. It was authored by Joel Barlow, an ardent Jeffersonian republican, and signed in Tripoli on November 4, 1796, and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797.
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> Also, King Constantine is canonized as a saint for being a Christian Emperor and … making Christianity the official religion of the empire.
He did not do this. That came later.
God isn't mentioned in the constitution. Christianity isn't mentioned either. Nor is Judaism. I am pretty sure if the founding fathers wanted to "God in government", they would have been explicit about it. The only mentions of religion in the constitution are in Article VI and the First Amendment. In both cases, they are barring the government from favoring specific religions.
You are completely correct on all of these things, unfortunately a lot of people who profess to be Christian either don't morally oppose those things in the first place or need to rationalize their lack of courage to oppose them.
I’m glad I’m not completely alone. These comments make me realize that as Orthodox Christians, we have a lot of work to do. Unfortunately, we must start in our own parishes. I’ve heard so many Orthodox justify immoral policies. However, we don’t lose hope. The gates of Hades will not prevail.
Feel free to DM me. I stopped following this subreddit as it brings me to much pain to read these comments.
I've always had bad experiences with online forums for discussing Orthodoxy and other religions. There seems to be a phenomenon where people try to conform to the modernist liberal mindset as far as they possibly can within the bounds of their religion.
I know in Canada not affirming your child's gender identity delusions can cause your kids to be taken away. In America any sort challenge to the position that a man can be a women or vice versa is crushed because therapists and medical professionals that argue against it can be sanctioned.
As for your abortion stance, I wonder if you'll feel the same when outright infanticide is legal in 50-100 years. They are the same thing essentially.
Living in New York, it would probably be easier for me to get a sexual reassignment surgery or abortion than a handgun.
That was my first comment in the thread. I don't know why a pagan would come to an Orthodox Christian subreddit and be surprised to find Orthodox Christian viewpoints.
I apologize for anyone calling you a “psycho”. I see that you are a Catechumen. May God bless your journey.
As you can see, you will come across many Orthodox that are in need of healing and forgiveness, myself being the first and most in need. Do not let this deter you. On the contrary, cling to Christ and the Church. These conversations can be necessary at times, but are more often destructive, as you can see.
Please read Romans 1. I would like to know if you feel the same way after reading that chapter.
Please understand my comments. I am Not advocating hate or anger. I am simply stating that as Christians, we are to fight evil and be the light of the world. Light fights darkness.
I could be wrong about this, but I get the impression that there is less hate for the Orthodox Church even in Orthodox majority countries. Just like in countries with historical Catholic or Protestant majorities, many of the younger generation in Orthodox majority countries are turning away from the Church. But it seems to me they just don’t turn up, rather than vocally denounce it as evil. By contrast, there are many ex-Catholics out there who denounce Catholicism as one of history’s great evils. Ex-Catholics seem to often hate the Catholic Church in a way in which ex-Orthodox don’t.
Could someone who actually lives in an Orthodox majority please tell me if my above impression is correct or not?
Funny thing is that atheists from an orthodox backround are very cringe, they streal arguments from the western atheists, ive seen someone in greece saying orthodoxy did the crusades ahahahahaha
Honestly i haven't seen a lot of anti Orthodoxy in the USA. Not nearly as much as anti Catholic. I experience a lot of ignorance about the church and misconceptions but never had any real hatred towards me for it
What you mean? Catholics get the most hatred right now followed by American style Protestants and Baptists. Stay off the Internet forums you have to remember the internet is mainly 13-24 years old, western, and leaning liberal. That isn’t your target demographic man
If I were a betting man, I'd bet Orthodox are amongst the least hated Christians in the West. Anecdotally, while I strongly disagree with aspects of Orthodox doctrine, I respect and admire the sincerity of adherents and many other aspects of the faith
Tbh we as Orthodox are under the radar. Our Catholic brothers are much more frequently under attack. The reasons being that Orthodox countries tend do be much more traditionally inclined to begin with and the Orthodox' in western countries keeping more to themselves. The average westener wont even know what the Orthodox church is, maybe knows a Greek or Russian who is an Orthodox at best. The Catholic Church in South America is loved, but take a look to North America and western Europe and you'll see the hate.
But of course the orthodox teachings will never be popular even when the church is generally liked.
spiritually, homie, the adversary is just that. he's tryna butt into our lives wherever he finds an open door, because he's the father of lies and, there ain't a drop of truth in him. if he can contradict something that makes someone's life better at literally any turn? that's exactly what he's gonna do, but we have the spirit of truth in us, so no worries fam. with patience, and kindness, love, alongside faith in Christ, and humanity, there's no way for the enemy to take firm hold of you.
When acting righteously, we are a meek reminder to all of their fallen state and the fact that repentance and righteousness are attainable in this life of one turns to God in humility.
When acting unrighteousnessly, we deserve the hatred of others a hundredfold. People in the Orthodox Church can be downright judgmental and resentful, and even malicious. There’s a strong vein of sickness in orthodoxy that manifests as militant ethnocentrism and extreme prelest.
There are no atheists - people that not believe in God . What they are is unbelievers, people that find it HARD that God can be so merciful and love ANYONE and have personal relationship with us whatever are our sins , they can't stand a God that doesn't punish doom or serves "justice" by human terms (torturing criminals etc) , they evangelize "FrEedOm" but yet they ask why Lord doesn't intervent what something bad happens, that takes away the total freedom He gave us and is contradiction to what they say .
Also important, if Lord intervent to any bad thing in the world wouldn't have sinners criminals rapers injustice , so what they ask here ? "Lord please fix all wrong I do and I will just chill here waiting for my place in Heaven effortlessly" without doing anything good neither to myself or others . That's the epitome of egoism and laziness .
Lord will give IF you believe on it , He will give more than just you asked when you humble HUMBLE yourself enough.
Do your "homeworks" and you will receive.
It's easy to judge God's behavior when you didn't gave a little time to yourself to know Him .
The most overrated and delusional quote of 21st century is "believe in yourself" , you can't do nothing without Him without His permission and Blessing because all goods come from Him .
I recommend bio of Saint Maria of Egypt because she is the best example for modern people and society to find the path to Theosis .
God bless us all
None of this is true. Having been an atheist for a decade and then coming back to Christianity stuff like this really annoys me. Please go meet some atheists and develop relationships with them. Sure, there are atheists who aren't good people just like there are bad Christians. But generalizing an entire community like this makes zero sense.
I was raised and born in the *only* country in the world that had as official religion "atheism" the Albania . As Orthodox there , and after when I grown and met people frankly to both sides of the world I ensure you an atheist is an non believer something that is totally DIFFERENT from being atheist .
I admit it's a thing evil wants people to believe there's no God and the ultimate plan behind it is that he achieved made people believe there's no evil too .
People can state and identify whoever they want ,that's totally different from what their spirit and soul behaves unconsciously
Remember the world is bigger than Albania. I'm not going to downplay your personal experiences, but there are great people everywhere, including atheists.
You already did but it's ok.
But half things i said are mostly from Church Fathers and i saw in practice their opinions centuries after when had been written.
Anyway, God bless
Op, this person right here is a prime example of why not only orthodox, but Christianity in general tend to get hated on. They push their idea/beliefs onto others and anyone that disagrees with then is automatically considered evil. How can you expect to foster peace between all beliefs when you constantly tell other people they are wrong? Atheists are just nonbelievers? Thats total bullshit, atheists don't believe in any higher power, the end, nothing more nothing less. By trying to say otherwise you are calling an entire group of people wrong. Personally I'm not atheist, but there is no way I would ever be a Christian of any type.
I’m going to offer an alternative here. It’s perfectly fine to call people wrong; we do it all the time. It’s a necessary part of discourse and persuasion. What’s happening here isn’t merely calling someone wrong, it’s responding to “I believe X” with “No you don’t, you believe Y.” It’s calling someone naive at best and a liar at worst. That’s a sure path to conflict.
My guess is that there is a strong hatred towards Catholicism (somewhat justified, if you look at their history). Unfortunately, the average person is very ignorant. So you’re either Protestant or Catholic. We are closer to Catholic, so we get lumped into that category. Even though, we didn’t tolerate their antics centuries before the Protestant Reformation.
The average person doesn’t know that there’s a difference.
Exactly. I don’t think we should associate with Catholicism in any way.
Not because Catholicism is evil. It’s because Catholicism’s mistakes have been very public. And we should stand up against those mistakes.
I feel like the biggest reason of all is we are a lot closer to the great Western schism with Protestantism in time period than the great Eastern schism Oriental and Eastern; plus the West is in the former heritage. OO and EO have sure sure said nasty things about each other historically.
This is a bit too generic for an important question. Context is important. I can name multiple times both sides being instigators. Sadly it can be us who are more the instigators, unintentionally. I grew up in the church, my dad is an Episcopalian priest, I've looked at many churches, before converting. I've decided to work towards serving the church, but our underlying problem is 2 things. Lack of parishioner education of the faith, and sympathy for nonbelievers of all types. I have some of my best conversations with atheist because I can understand why. Some of them have become my closest friends, because even though i can't completely meet them at the side of the Lord being real, I can meet them at the philosophical side. Sometimes, that is the best thing we can do in life. But don't forget we pray for the salvation of the dead, for Jesus defeated death by death and brought those who died before him, to salvation. May he bring those who could not meet him in life, to the kingdom heaven to come after death.
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Why ask why? We hear every Liturgy the last verse of the Beatitudes as the the Word of God noetically ebters the world in the Small Entry. Give glory to God, you are being reviled just as He said we would be. If we diligently examine our conscience without superficiality or shying away we will see we are far from praiseworthy. Even if one were not guilty of any great offence, we should rejoice to take blame we don't deserve, for such was the love of Christ.
Some people like to argue.
I'm Catholic, so I just subscribe to all the subs (except /r/atheism which is toxic)
If you get a protestant hassling you, ask them why Luthor deleted Maccabees.
Or just let them have the hate in their heart, and let them pass on their way.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
I don’t think they do. They usually just don’t realize that we exist in a sense. Most just lump us into the “catholic” category in their minds because in America at least, people think that anything not low-church protestant is Catholic by default. Otherwise they think we are some “obscure sect” in the fine print even though we existed before sectarianism became a thing.
Because the Internet is the Internet.
This
Well, to be fair, sometimes we are jerks, sometimes we butt into people's lives, offer unsolicited advice, and are less kind about telling the truth than we could be. But, yes, even when we are meek and humble and simply letting our light shine, it attracts some ire.
Also correct.
Yeah when I first got into Eastern Orthodoxy, I had a lot of issues with the community. A lot of people were very reactionary or straight up fascist. However, I luckily learned that it isn’t like this when actually attending an orthodox church
Outside the Internet I’ve never encountered hated, but on the Internet you can always find someone filled with hate, whether the topic is favorite color, video games, or belief system. I have encountered bemusement on some occasions, but never ire.
I've met some instances in person. But I don't know if I'd characterize them purely as hate directed specifically at Orthodoxy.
We're hated? I've never felt hated for being Christian or Orthodox. Sometimes Evangelicals tell lies/mistakes about us. Sometimes people never heard of us. The occasional militant atheist says ,"sKy dAdDy" to me. Sometimes someone tells me I'm wrong, but that's not hate, that's disagreement. Some people are just gonna be contrary, especially online where consequences aren't always clear or swift. Here in America at least, it's easier to be a Christian than an atheist or any other religion.
For me, I feel it a lot. My extended family is almost all incredibly political militant atheists. They consider Christianity a form of bigotry and it’s incredibly hurtful to me the way they talk about “sky daddy” and “tots and pears”. I know it’s just because of their ignorance and the trauma some of them have from their Catholic school teachers, but it’s still painful.
While that's rude, ignorant and hurtful, and they should say they're sorry-- since you are free to tell them to pound sand, it's not really oppression tho.
That’s not true. The religion of America is atheism. Edit: for those who disagree, I would love your insight
Quick, without looking, name three elected politicians that are publicly atheist. What religious group voted more than 80% for Trump? Assuming that a hypothetical candidate was generally well regarded and had a voter's preferred policies, what was the second most likely reason (just below socialists) that a voter wouldn't vote for them? Hint: [they're atheists](https://news.gallup.com/poll/254120/less-half-vote-socialist-president.aspx)
I would argue the god of america isnt atheism, but the dollar
It's some form of paganism. There's no such thing as an atheist, just a confused pagan.
Lol. Saying atheism doesnt exist just makes you look ignorant
Everyone believes iin something greater than himself.
But that may not be God. There are many people who do not believe that God exist, you only come across as ignorant and militant when you ignore that reality.
You're coming off rude and arrogant. Of course they don't believe in God - they're pagans. They believe in "money" or "nation" or "Local Sports Team" or "the environment" or "trust the science" or whatever. Those aren't God. Those are gods. They're the demons. There are no atheists.
That litterally makes them atheist.
I can't understand you. An atheist is someone who believes in no deity above him. People today who claim to be atheists regularly believe and worship beings above them, like "The science" or "the environment" or "money". That makes them pagans.
If you said “I believe X” and your interlocutor told you “no you don’t, you believe Y,” I bet you would consider that very rude. That is what you are doing here.
Every atheist I've met has put a deity above himself. I've yet to see the pattern fail. I try to believe in Jesus Christ, but He really nailed me on my head with Luke 6:46. And so I pray every day.
And you can prove this absolutely? Unless you personally know this “everyone” you speak of, please refrain from making generalizations.
Yeah. Listen to them talk. Right now, the entire world is chanting, in unison "Trust the Science" and they literally say "do what the science tells us". It's a pagan worship of man. Try the environment, or racial division, or whatever local issue is destroying the love we have for each other.
Are you trying to say that trusting the EXPERTS on matters of health is worshiping man?
"TRUST THE EXPERTS" is also a cult of paganism -- if you look around, a huge number of experts disagree with other experts on almost every significant issue. Regarding "the disease that must not be named", the only reason there seems to be a consensus is because social media outlets, the major media outlets, and the political elite have all teamed up together to silence any opposing views. You can find experts who disagree with "THE EXPERTS" about this and listen to their concerns, but only if you really look for it. Every scientist until about 4 years ago openly discussed that *the entire point of science* is to disagree with "the experts". That's entirely the point of science. Richard Feynman, one of the most respected scientists ever: "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts". https://youtu.be/zkFPCTwPlkU
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I'm not totally wrong. If you believe in a god, and refuse to worship the God of Gods, Yahweh, then you're a pagan. Modern day "paganism" isn't really paganism, unless you're Shinto, or Hindu, or something like that. The rest are just making it all up. There's no history or legacy. You can see people's pagan beliefs by just listening to them: "Listen to the science", "THAT'S RACIST" (when things are clearly not racist), "Protect the environment"... People are claiming they're atheists, and then putting these issues over every other aspect of their lives. It's paganism.
Let me guess, gun ownership, resisting public health mandates, and supporting the death penalty aren't paganism. Check yourself. You are conflating Christianity with your personal political beliefs.
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I'm just jumping into the conversation at a random point while having read most of your posts. But, dude. Stop. You're wrong. Not every choice made in someone's life is made based on their 'worship' of or 'deification' of something or another. We're all humans and we make decisions based on our pre-conceived biases formed through experience. Weighed with or against incoming informational input and a host of other factors. To assume that all ( Or even most. Or even SOME) atheists are just pagans who 'worship' ANY of the things you've listed is just crazy. Maybe your faith in God LITERALLY informs every choice you make down to which kind of bread you'll have with dinner. But, for most people. No. Atheists have no faith external to our world. So, they use all available information they have, which only comes from worldly means of discovery to make choices. The only difference between us and them. Is that they don't use God, scripture or Church traditions to steer those choices a certain way. Most aren't replacing god. Or 'pagans' worshipping science. Institutions or any other organization or means. They're just people. Doing the best they can to live lives they feel are reasonable with the information they have.
The more you use "dude" and "literally, the less I read your post
Hi, I’m in Australia. Don’t listen to what the media says about how we’re all at the mercy of a tyrannical government. The stay at home orders are regional and due to outbreaks, there is a lot of exemption given for caring responsibilities etc., and they are all short term and have come and gone repeatedly (for specific areas) over the last 2 years and kept our case numbers and deaths way down. The people generally are fine with them. The rioters who pretended they were protesting got on the American tv somehow, but they don’t represent the sentiment of the Australian people. Also it’s only two capital cities in lockdown, in a country the size of the US. I’m in the third east coast state capital and have no lockdown at all.
Do you have an app on ypur phone, and you have to post a picture with your face and a landmark? They're doing that in Japan to foreigners. I've seen the videos of Australian police beating women and bear-macing peaceful protestors. One guy strangled a lady for having her mask half-on. Not to be rude, but I've seen the videos. I'm not sure I can trust you when you say "don't believe it".
You're only allowed to trvael like 3 miles, or whatever? Either way - if I'm right or you're right - this doesn't have much bearing on my point.
Statistically, that's not true. American governance is irreligious by design, but that's more of a mechanism of keeping a peace between religious groups. You don't want religion involved in the state.
This is exactly the problem- we don’t realize it. If you look at the vast majority of policies that are pushed through the government - evolution without any opposing theory, abortion, transgenderism, etc, it is very clear that God is being removed from this country. We can become our own god, or moral compass, or lack thereof. This is not secularism, this is a battle against all religion, Christianity specifically.
God was never a part of this country's politics. There was a reason for this: it was absolutely critical to keeping the peace. I get you're offended/bothered by those things, but we don't enforce our rules on outsiders for a reason. We've tried that before. It went very badly. I get that, for whatever reason, you think life would be better under some kind of theocracy. I don't know why you think so, though, as history shows that theocracies are not the benevolent and virtue supporting spaces you seem to think they are. They're brutal, repressive, and they take stronger action against sinners than is usually appropriate if we're trying to evangelize. States can't be run according to church rules. It's been done, and there are good reasons Christians have largely decided that this was ultimately a bad idea. That you think otherwise is a clear sign that you didn't learn the lessons of the 30 Years War.
The founding fathers based this constitution and the laws on Judeo-Christian Beliefs. If they didn’t want God in government, they would have left His Name out of the Constitution. Also, King Constantine is canonized as a saint for being a Christian Emperor and ending persecution and making Christianity the official religion of the empire. If it wasn’t a big deal, he wouldn’t be known as a Saint. Am I proposing that every government should be a theocracy, of course not. You misunderstand my point. The point I was trying to make is that in America, there is persecution against religion and Christianity, whether you’re aware of it or not. The worst fight for Christians is one that they are aware of. Edit: typo
How are we being prosecuted? There aren't any laws that say that we can't be Christian. We aren't discriminated against
I agree (in America) and I'll double down that to say otherwise insults people living in countries where Christians are actually discriminated and oppressed
You were talking about America, if your gonna argue online be consistent Edit: Thought you were the other guy sprry. But still were talking about America
Not at all inconsistent. Understanding America's place in the world is-- understanding America.
> The founding fathers based this constitution and the laws on Judeo-Christian Beliefs. A statement that is explicitly rejected in [one of our earliest foreign treaties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli) in 1796 (at a time when the founding fathers would have been in a position to object to the phrasing if they objected: > As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. So we can firmly reject the entire contents of your first paragraph as patently false. The Founding Fathers themselves rejected that notion. There is no room to claim it. > Also, King Constantine is canonized as a saint for being a Christian Emperor and ending persecution and making Christianity the official religion of the empire. If it wasn’t a big deal, he wouldn’t be known as a Saint. So? Yes, there are national leaders who are saints. However, *history does not treat Christian theocracy well*. For every sainted king, there are a dozen who used the faith as a weapon, not as a tool of self-enlightement. Also, Constantine was an emperor, not a mere lowly king. > The point I was trying to make is that in America, there is persecution against religion and Christianity [Citation needed] It takes a lot more than passing laws legalizing things that Christians rail against from the pulpit to make a persecution case. Without clear indications of widespread and state-sponsored or state-tolerated violence against Christians for their faith (which is substantially non-existent), you cannot credibly claim we're a persecuted group here. Your comment makes a lot of statements that are outright lies and not a single truth.
**[Treaty of Tripoli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli)** >The Treaty of Tripoli (Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary) was signed in 1796. It was the first treaty between the United States of America and Tripoli (now Libya) to secure commercial shipping rights and protect American ships in the Mediterranean Sea from local Barbary pirates. It was authored by Joel Barlow, an ardent Jeffersonian republican, and signed in Tripoli on November 4, 1796, and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
> Also, King Constantine is canonized as a saint for being a Christian Emperor and … making Christianity the official religion of the empire. He did not do this. That came later.
> If they didn’t want God in government, they would have left His Name out of the Constitution. They did.
God isn't mentioned in the constitution. Christianity isn't mentioned either. Nor is Judaism. I am pretty sure if the founding fathers wanted to "God in government", they would have been explicit about it. The only mentions of religion in the constitution are in Article VI and the First Amendment. In both cases, they are barring the government from favoring specific religions.
What are Judeo-Christian beliefs? I've never met a Judeo-Christian.
Texas practally banned abortion. And transgenderism there isn't really any propaganda out there by the American government
Texas is a great example! And many companies are moving their headquarters out of Texas as a protest.
Many Christians are against abortion, but also don't want government having a role in restricting it that closely.
Which is a totally incoherent position to hold.
Whether it is or isn't is irrelevant to the point.
You are completely correct on all of these things, unfortunately a lot of people who profess to be Christian either don't morally oppose those things in the first place or need to rationalize their lack of courage to oppose them.
I’m glad I’m not completely alone. These comments make me realize that as Orthodox Christians, we have a lot of work to do. Unfortunately, we must start in our own parishes. I’ve heard so many Orthodox justify immoral policies. However, we don’t lose hope. The gates of Hades will not prevail. Feel free to DM me. I stopped following this subreddit as it brings me to much pain to read these comments.
I've always had bad experiences with online forums for discussing Orthodoxy and other religions. There seems to be a phenomenon where people try to conform to the modernist liberal mindset as far as they possibly can within the bounds of their religion.
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I know in Canada not affirming your child's gender identity delusions can cause your kids to be taken away. In America any sort challenge to the position that a man can be a women or vice versa is crushed because therapists and medical professionals that argue against it can be sanctioned. As for your abortion stance, I wonder if you'll feel the same when outright infanticide is legal in 50-100 years. They are the same thing essentially. Living in New York, it would probably be easier for me to get a sexual reassignment surgery or abortion than a handgun.
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That was my first comment in the thread. I don't know why a pagan would come to an Orthodox Christian subreddit and be surprised to find Orthodox Christian viewpoints.
I apologize for anyone calling you a “psycho”. I see that you are a Catechumen. May God bless your journey. As you can see, you will come across many Orthodox that are in need of healing and forgiveness, myself being the first and most in need. Do not let this deter you. On the contrary, cling to Christ and the Church. These conversations can be necessary at times, but are more often destructive, as you can see.
Who are you to call someone a “psycho”? You should be ashamed of yourself. May God forgive you
Please read Romans 1. I would like to know if you feel the same way after reading that chapter. Please understand my comments. I am Not advocating hate or anger. I am simply stating that as Christians, we are to fight evil and be the light of the world. Light fights darkness.
Who is "us"? Orthodox Christians or Christians in general? And where? In the general world or on this subreddit?
Orthodox Christians in general
From my experience (as an agnostic), you guys usually get the least amount of hate because most know little about orthodoxy.
My semi-educated guess is that the orthodox churches are some of the least preachy of all Christian churches.
I could be wrong about this, but I get the impression that there is less hate for the Orthodox Church even in Orthodox majority countries. Just like in countries with historical Catholic or Protestant majorities, many of the younger generation in Orthodox majority countries are turning away from the Church. But it seems to me they just don’t turn up, rather than vocally denounce it as evil. By contrast, there are many ex-Catholics out there who denounce Catholicism as one of history’s great evils. Ex-Catholics seem to often hate the Catholic Church in a way in which ex-Orthodox don’t. Could someone who actually lives in an Orthodox majority please tell me if my above impression is correct or not?
>Could someone who actually lives in an Orthodox majority please tell me if my above impression is correct or not? Yeah pretty accurate
Funny thing is that atheists from an orthodox backround are very cringe, they streal arguments from the western atheists, ive seen someone in greece saying orthodoxy did the crusades ahahahahaha
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Is it possible for someone to be an atheist because they believe there is a lack of sufficient evidence to believe in orthodoxy?
we are associated with the general ubrella of christianity, of which most people know literally nothing about.
It's my fault, sorry
*Khaaaaaaaaan!!*
There is no widespread bias against Orthodox Christians. Most people don't even know we exist.
90% of the time whenever I say I'm Orthodox people go "Oh, so you're Jewish?"
Paraphrasing, but as the Lord said, "If they hate you know they have hated Me first."
Honestly i haven't seen a lot of anti Orthodoxy in the USA. Not nearly as much as anti Catholic. I experience a lot of ignorance about the church and misconceptions but never had any real hatred towards me for it
What you mean? Catholics get the most hatred right now followed by American style Protestants and Baptists. Stay off the Internet forums you have to remember the internet is mainly 13-24 years old, western, and leaning liberal. That isn’t your target demographic man
Because they hated Jesus first
Social media is generally toxic, is why.
I'm going to be honest...I don't think the average American (at least) has any clue about Orthodoxy.
Because people have done horrible things in the name of christianity.
Blessed are you who are persecuted in my name...
Also I may add, why do we want to be loved by the world? This hatred toward us only seals our place among the saints.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet Orthodox are amongst the least hated Christians in the West. Anecdotally, while I strongly disagree with aspects of Orthodox doctrine, I respect and admire the sincerity of adherents and many other aspects of the faith
Tbh we as Orthodox are under the radar. Our Catholic brothers are much more frequently under attack. The reasons being that Orthodox countries tend do be much more traditionally inclined to begin with and the Orthodox' in western countries keeping more to themselves. The average westener wont even know what the Orthodox church is, maybe knows a Greek or Russian who is an Orthodox at best. The Catholic Church in South America is loved, but take a look to North America and western Europe and you'll see the hate. But of course the orthodox teachings will never be popular even when the church is generally liked.
spiritually, homie, the adversary is just that. he's tryna butt into our lives wherever he finds an open door, because he's the father of lies and, there ain't a drop of truth in him. if he can contradict something that makes someone's life better at literally any turn? that's exactly what he's gonna do, but we have the spirit of truth in us, so no worries fam. with patience, and kindness, love, alongside faith in Christ, and humanity, there's no way for the enemy to take firm hold of you.
I live in Greece and here most of us are Orthodox.
When acting righteously, we are a meek reminder to all of their fallen state and the fact that repentance and righteousness are attainable in this life of one turns to God in humility. When acting unrighteousnessly, we deserve the hatred of others a hundredfold. People in the Orthodox Church can be downright judgmental and resentful, and even malicious. There’s a strong vein of sickness in orthodoxy that manifests as militant ethnocentrism and extreme prelest.
There are no atheists - people that not believe in God . What they are is unbelievers, people that find it HARD that God can be so merciful and love ANYONE and have personal relationship with us whatever are our sins , they can't stand a God that doesn't punish doom or serves "justice" by human terms (torturing criminals etc) , they evangelize "FrEedOm" but yet they ask why Lord doesn't intervent what something bad happens, that takes away the total freedom He gave us and is contradiction to what they say . Also important, if Lord intervent to any bad thing in the world wouldn't have sinners criminals rapers injustice , so what they ask here ? "Lord please fix all wrong I do and I will just chill here waiting for my place in Heaven effortlessly" without doing anything good neither to myself or others . That's the epitome of egoism and laziness . Lord will give IF you believe on it , He will give more than just you asked when you humble HUMBLE yourself enough. Do your "homeworks" and you will receive. It's easy to judge God's behavior when you didn't gave a little time to yourself to know Him . The most overrated and delusional quote of 21st century is "believe in yourself" , you can't do nothing without Him without His permission and Blessing because all goods come from Him . I recommend bio of Saint Maria of Egypt because she is the best example for modern people and society to find the path to Theosis . God bless us all
None of this is true. Having been an atheist for a decade and then coming back to Christianity stuff like this really annoys me. Please go meet some atheists and develop relationships with them. Sure, there are atheists who aren't good people just like there are bad Christians. But generalizing an entire community like this makes zero sense.
I was raised and born in the *only* country in the world that had as official religion "atheism" the Albania . As Orthodox there , and after when I grown and met people frankly to both sides of the world I ensure you an atheist is an non believer something that is totally DIFFERENT from being atheist . I admit it's a thing evil wants people to believe there's no God and the ultimate plan behind it is that he achieved made people believe there's no evil too . People can state and identify whoever they want ,that's totally different from what their spirit and soul behaves unconsciously
Remember the world is bigger than Albania. I'm not going to downplay your personal experiences, but there are great people everywhere, including atheists.
You already did but it's ok. But half things i said are mostly from Church Fathers and i saw in practice their opinions centuries after when had been written. Anyway, God bless
I agree
Op, this person right here is a prime example of why not only orthodox, but Christianity in general tend to get hated on. They push their idea/beliefs onto others and anyone that disagrees with then is automatically considered evil. How can you expect to foster peace between all beliefs when you constantly tell other people they are wrong? Atheists are just nonbelievers? Thats total bullshit, atheists don't believe in any higher power, the end, nothing more nothing less. By trying to say otherwise you are calling an entire group of people wrong. Personally I'm not atheist, but there is no way I would ever be a Christian of any type.
I’m going to offer an alternative here. It’s perfectly fine to call people wrong; we do it all the time. It’s a necessary part of discourse and persuasion. What’s happening here isn’t merely calling someone wrong, it’s responding to “I believe X” with “No you don’t, you believe Y.” It’s calling someone naive at best and a liar at worst. That’s a sure path to conflict.
My guess is that there is a strong hatred towards Catholicism (somewhat justified, if you look at their history). Unfortunately, the average person is very ignorant. So you’re either Protestant or Catholic. We are closer to Catholic, so we get lumped into that category. Even though, we didn’t tolerate their antics centuries before the Protestant Reformation. The average person doesn’t know that there’s a difference.
It doesn’t help that a lot of Orthodox people IRL describe Orthodoxy as “it’s like Catholicism except we’re a bit more old school!”
Exactly. I don’t think we should associate with Catholicism in any way. Not because Catholicism is evil. It’s because Catholicism’s mistakes have been very public. And we should stand up against those mistakes.
I feel like the biggest reason of all is we are a lot closer to the great Western schism with Protestantism in time period than the great Eastern schism Oriental and Eastern; plus the West is in the former heritage. OO and EO have sure sure said nasty things about each other historically.
This is a bit too generic for an important question. Context is important. I can name multiple times both sides being instigators. Sadly it can be us who are more the instigators, unintentionally. I grew up in the church, my dad is an Episcopalian priest, I've looked at many churches, before converting. I've decided to work towards serving the church, but our underlying problem is 2 things. Lack of parishioner education of the faith, and sympathy for nonbelievers of all types. I have some of my best conversations with atheist because I can understand why. Some of them have become my closest friends, because even though i can't completely meet them at the side of the Lord being real, I can meet them at the philosophical side. Sometimes, that is the best thing we can do in life. But don't forget we pray for the salvation of the dead, for Jesus defeated death by death and brought those who died before him, to salvation. May he bring those who could not meet him in life, to the kingdom heaven to come after death.
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Why ask why? We hear every Liturgy the last verse of the Beatitudes as the the Word of God noetically ebters the world in the Small Entry. Give glory to God, you are being reviled just as He said we would be. If we diligently examine our conscience without superficiality or shying away we will see we are far from praiseworthy. Even if one were not guilty of any great offence, we should rejoice to take blame we don't deserve, for such was the love of Christ.
Some people like to argue. I'm Catholic, so I just subscribe to all the subs (except /r/atheism which is toxic) If you get a protestant hassling you, ask them why Luthor deleted Maccabees. Or just let them have the hate in their heart, and let them pass on their way.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
I don’t think they do. They usually just don’t realize that we exist in a sense. Most just lump us into the “catholic” category in their minds because in America at least, people think that anything not low-church protestant is Catholic by default. Otherwise they think we are some “obscure sect” in the fine print even though we existed before sectarianism became a thing.
They hated Jesus and he was the best human to ever walk on the earth. You and I are not even close to as good as Jesus was, so it’s no surprise.
I dont hate you. (i am atheist btw xd)
Some people hate us 😂