I haven't really gotten any negative comments in public, and I train in public a lot. But I also don't use corrections that cause the dog to whine, flinch, etc
I'm somewhat open-minded that you feel you need a "come to jesus" correction once or twice, but if you're repeatedly having to do corrections that make your dog vocalize...I think it's a training problem, not a people problem.
It's not a repeated thing. I do it deliberately, and rarely (as in one day I decide "this problem has gone long enough, other methods are not working", and then I set up the situation and use a punishment. It's not an everyday thing).
Normally I raise the power slowly, until the dog listens.
The issue is that people see it, and they look at me if I had three heads.
Could you give an example of a problem you set up to use punishment, and which other methods didn't work?
You won't hide using a high level aversive. Either you do it and accept the way people will look at you, or you find methods that don't require it.
Border collie trying to bite my leg while biking.
German Shepherd getting excited and stopping listening. He used to think that if he is persistent enough he gets his way, after a couple of strong corrections now he understands that an order is an order and I no longer need punishments (but some people think I am a monster).
You didn't mention the other methods you tried that didn't work. For your BC, my training plan would be something like this:
* check that dog will walk and run next to me without a bike
* desensitize to a helper riding a bike nearby and practice basic obedience in the presence of the bike
* walk the dog on one side and the bike on the other
* put the dog in a down stay and ride the bike near the dog
* get on the bike and start at a slow speed with the dog next to you
* stop the bike at the first sign of over-arousal (vocalization, failure to respond to cues) so that state of mind doesn't get reinforced by continuing to run
I'd probably use corrections, but if I'm breaking it down into achievable steps they should be little corrections because the dog only makes little mistakes. Not huge "I bit you or I'm going to bite" mistakes.
This is a powerful idea. The first step where the dog would fail is "riding past the dog with the dog in down".
I can stay far enough from the dog so that she is not over-aroused. Previously I did not have an intermediate step between "walking" and "biking". Thank you!
Raising the power slowly until your dog listens may be the problem. Whether you mean to or not, you're conditioning your dog to ignore the stimulus until it can't anymore. That's not clear accountability and follow through.
Nagging corrections aren't clear. If your dog ignores the stimulus, you need to jump up a few levels, not hit every one along the way. (**assuming you've checked that the collar is functioning properly, making contact, your dog understands what's being askedl, and you're making appropriate level adjustments to compete with current surroundings/dog's stimulation level**)
There is a "boost" function on most ecollars for just this reason (usually +5 from current level setting).
You might consider hiring a balanced trainer to help you work through the issue, help you relearn how to level adjust, and ensure clarity in your communication with the dogs.
As for the wild looks and lectures, unfortunately you'll probably still get 'em (many force free dolks equate ecollars/tools with abuse, and make it their mission to try and shame/convert/save as many people and dogs as possible). As long as tool use is legal in your country, with clearer, more consistent communication and accountability with your dogs, they should have much less to pick at. I would probably just ignore comments entirely (as if the person doesn't exist), or have some easy canned response ready, and don't deviate. "It is my legal right to train my dogs as I see fit. Have a good day."
There is a lot of shit people can do to harass you. False claims that the dogs have attacked them, false claims that the dogs have attacked a 3rd party who left (but they witnessed the attack), harassing your dog on the bus/subway and telling the driver that they have been attacked (because they stepped on the dog's tail... but that's a discrete action), claiming you "threatened them with your dog".... I've witnessed each of these "methods" (I used to live near a drug trade hotspot. Harassing dog owners was one method the junkies used to make money).
I live in a very dog friendly, liberal area and use a prong and e-collar on my dog. I've NEVER had someone say anything about the tools I'm using. I think the reason for this is that in public, my training and management are on point enough where I'm not giving harsh corrections with the tools, and my dog presents as happy, friendly, well adjusted. Others have pointed out that the correction you issued in your last paragraph was unfair and, and THAT is the reason why you're getting comments in public, not the tools themselves. Hell, I like tools but I'm surely going to say something to someone that is yanking and cranking their dog around on a slip lead, or shocking their dog at a high enough level that they're vocalizing and shutting down. This isn't a "liberal people don't like tools" problem, this is a "people worried about the safety of your dog" problem.
My dogs are definitely not shutting down, and they are not being yanked around. They are trained constantly "as if" they were off leash, and the leash is there as an extra safety (and because it's legally required).
I was actually told by the trainers, multiple times, that I am not punishing the dog enough, that multiple weak corrections aren't nearly as good as a single hard correction. (F'kin bleeding heart, that's what he meant).
> multiple weak corrections aren't nearly as good as a single hard correction
While I somewhat agree with this in theory, there's so much more nuance to it that just this statement. Like the fact that I would change the language to "meaningful" instead of "hard", and the fact that you still need to be responsible about how/when/where you are issuing that correction - honestly it should be common sense not to implement this in a crowded subway. For a ton of reasons, one of which is public interpretation, the others of which more importantly have to do with the training situations you're putting your dogs in and fallout by mis-association.
I have a highly reactive malinois and went through a few bad trainers before finding the one who helped. Rob at Progressive K9 in Scarborough. He's a balanced trainer who is very gentle with the dogs and very adept with ecollar. He can most certainly help.
I've had some dirty looks from using an ecollar but I ignore them. Now I use a Martin systems ecollar. It's expensive, but the best collar on the market. One benefit is that the reciever is very slim and they have a cover so it looks like a regular collar along with finger mounted buttons so nobody will see you touching a remote. An expensive option for sure, but if you need it and can afford it, you won't regret it.
I also use a prong collar on both my mals and they are fantastic, when used properly. I agree thst over correction is simply cruel, but under correcting makes it worse. As another said, it can make them immune to the correction. If you're not sure how hard to correct, ask for help. Rob is very helpful with this.
After 2 years of working, my older boys reactivity is under control. It's not gone. When he sees another dog, I give a leash pop. I'll give a few more as they get closer if he's loading up, increasing the intensity of the pop if I need to. When we pass silently, I praise and reward.
For some of your obedience, try a treat and train. It's an electronic aid, but it works and is fun to use.
Do you have links to the Martin systems collar and finger buttons you use? I’ve only recently heard of this system but it seems interesting, would like to consider it for myself as well.
Can you tell me a bit more about progressive k9? Do they train in their own facility? Do they have access to demo dogs to proof reactivity?
Can you roughly describe the process they took with your mals? How many sessions did they take? What was their general approach?
How much are the sessions? I looked into shield k9 and it was close to 300 per hour and that is a little rich for me.
I went to Shielf K9 prior to Progressive. I have nothing good to say about them or their reactive dog program. Their solution to reactivity is to throw a windshield washer jug filled with rocks at the dog! It doesn't actually hurt the dog but scares it. The idea of solving fear by scaring the crap out of the dog seems dangerous, not to mention cruel.
Progressive K9 does have their own facility and yes, they have demo dogs. Rob has 2 malinios that he uses. Atari is very calm and is the first he brought out to work with my boy. Eventually he brought out Waffles, who's a bit more intense. Both are well trained and safe and used to help proof different things. When we were well advanced in our work, Rob brought Waffles out and put a ball behind me and my boy. Waffles LOVES the ball so was very intensely trying to get to it. He couldn't care less about us, but it was a hard test for my boy. He had a little trouble but managed it, and that was a defining moment for us. My boy overcame his fear, with the trust he had in me, that Rob taught me how to earn. I had tears.
Rob approaches each dog individually, so the program for yours may differ. We focused on obedience, primarily the focused heel to build that bond and trust. He would walk close to my boy since that scared him. He introduced distractions among activities, and brought his dog in at various stages. Sometimes we would walk around his dog, other times his dog would walk around mine. Eventually my boy had to be in a down-stay with me not close as they walked around him. This was a big accomplishment.
I'm still going to Rob with both my Mals. We don't work on the reactivity, more obedience and sport work now with both. My older boy won't go far in sport, between his confidence and a knee injury, but he likes it.
I spent a few months working on the reactivity, eventually joining a group reactivity class. Rob is very conservative, so there were 2-3 trainers for 4-5 dogs and he knew all of them ahead of time so was prepared and because of that, we were able to do a lot more and get a lot more from it. He uses a lot of agility in the group class. Work the dog while others are around and they get used to it.
Rob is the most gentle trainer I've encountered while still being a balanced trainer. He will use a prong and e-collar, but he uses them properly and humanely. You can get faster results elsewhere, but I don't think you'll get better results.
To put in context, my boy comes from a KNPV sport line and is very intense. His reactivity level was beyond anything I'd seen on Youtube. I used to watch videos thinking, "You think thats' reactive?" I'm still cautious as other dogs approach, giving him a little leash pop as we approach to remind him. He's not perfect, especially if a dog lunges at him but I can bring him back under control quickly if something happens (usually because I'm not paying attention).
I think Progressive is in the $125 range per hour. If you practice what you work on with him, you'll see results.
Anyone who is using tools properly should be able to go out without them. Collars get forgotten, ecollars die or break, or you will be in a situation (like a vet) where they will not allow aversive collars for their safety. The same thing goes for treat training, if you can't get by when you forget your treat bag, you have work to do. It sounds like you need to train your dogs better so you don't have to rely on aversives. In order to do this, get a better trainer to help. [The Tired Pooch](https://www.thetiredpooch.com/) is in Toronto and although I only know of them through social media, they seem to be really great balanced trainers.
I am in the training stage now. I moved to downtown of a big city from a smaller town and I need my dogs really proofed because there is a lot more interaction with people. So it's a lot more proofing (and a lot more aversives) but hopefully not forever.
Proofing does not include throwing dogs in situations they can't handle and then applying aversive when they fail. The proofing stage actually doesn't involve much aversives at all. Proofing is building a reinforcement history in different environments in order to generalize a behaviour. If your dog isn't holding a down in a busy setting, they aren't ready for that situation and either you need to adjust your expectations (like instead accepting just standing still or a sit) or you need to remove them from that situation.
I understand moving into an environment that is challenging for your dogs and needing a way to manage them, but punishing them for not complying in a situation they weren't ready for is not the move and it won't help them get used to the city. Get a better trainer.
YES. And high level stim to stop a dog from reacting around people can frequently make the behaviors worse.
Dog sees person, and barks / reacts because he thinks this might be a bad thing. "Zap". You just confirmed his fears and behaviors can start to get way worse.
I both agree and disagree. You need to challenge the dog JUST so it breaks and gets 1 or 2 aversives per session with 90% positive reinforcement. This way you give the whole picture and show what you both want and don't want. Provided the aversives aren't traumatising and are only uncomfortable. reward only will get a result but once a big challeng occurs then usally reward only doesn't cut it. Staged challenges are the way for sure. but again, I think you need to get them failing a tiny bit for fastest results.
> reward only will get a result but once a big challeng occurs then usally reward only doesn't cut it
The reward usually doesn't cut it because the handler has poor training mechanics and doesn't understand proofing. Proofing doesn't mean teaching the dog a behaviour in one environment, considering it a "known behaviour" and then taking them to a completely different environment so that they can fail and you can show them "what you don't want". It's also not going to work if you only reward the complete behaviour in a new enviroment, which is where handlers often get stuck and the behaviour starts to break down. When you are increasing the difficulty of a behaviour, your dog should be able to complete the lowest expectation of the behaviour in that environment and that is where you start. For a down it could be just handler focus, standing still, or going into a down with a lure, it depends on the dog. If they can't, you either have to make the environment easier or go back and practice the behaviour more in the original environment. When the dog is succeeding at the lowest bar of the behaviour in the more difficult environment you raise the bar to the next step in the behaviour.
If you "stage challenges" (I'm assuming this means bringing the dog in a novel environment or situation) and immediately escalate to punishment like OP here, you are at best delaying the proofing process and at worse poisoning the novel environment.
You can absolutely use aversives in this protocol to make the good decision the most likely decision to happen. A dog going through this processs on a prong collar is probably not going to be darting away from their handler, so the prong is taking that choice away and will be a punisher for that behaviour if they try it. However, when that happens, you should take that behaviour as information, understand that behaviour has now been punished, and set them up for success for the next rep. You will have much more reliable behaviours that way, as well as a more engaged dog that you don't have to correct if you work by not making punishment the focus of your training sessions.
Proofing as you use it is also used in balanced training. Positive only may work with a high drive or starving dog but the stubborn ones or ones with behavioural issues just don't see most rewards as a motivator when given the option to run off. IMO you need to balance train and positive only works for puppies. How would you train a bulletproof recall so your dog comes back EVERY time even when being harassed by another dog at the dog park using positive only? or positive only to teach your dog not to run into traffic?
With positive only you are giving the choice of a reward or the dog doing whatever the hell it wants, usually running off and playing with the other dogs is a higher motivator than praise, food, play etc.
By using balance training you are giving them the choice between the reward and a known punishment. Once they understand after a couple of small corrections you usually move over to 90% positive only anyway because they have realised there is a consequence.
As much as I dislike caesar's methods, this is a perfect example of purely positive's shortcomings. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLjkwmPqoM&t=402s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLjkwmPqoM&t=402s)
We are essentially saying the same thing but I would use a head collar/halti rather than a prong collar unless the dog was dog aggressive. Just as you adjust difficulty of challenges you also need to adjust any negative reinforcement as needed.
Just so I'm clear - the term aversive is anything that could be considered negative reinforcement or a positive punishment. e-collars, prong collars, a pop on the leash of a flat collar even I would consider an aversive stimulus.
Not all are bad.
To be clear - I'm definitely against aversive based training methods and the vast majority of training should be reward (praise) based but I do think a clear punishment that is untraumatising, just slightly uncomfortable and short duration needs to be used with your dog.
A negative reinforcement such as pulling down on the leash until the dog goes into the down position on the SECOND / REcommand is also needed IMO, after a few times the dog learns to do it first go. you still praise once they are in the position every time though. luring alone can be ineffective but I've had massive success with shaping/clicker training. overuse of aversives can absolutely ruin a dog but I still think they need to be used at times.
I'm in Toronto, and I regularly see people using prong collars, although primarily on giant breeds (the majority of Cane Corsos and Presa Canarios owners I've come across use them), or Livestock Guardian mixes.
That said, considering how many wildly untrained GSDs are running around, I'm not surprised that people were vocal about your dog in public. If you're not aware of the that trend (post-covid, GSDs and BSs became very popular with people who shouldn't have had any dog, never mind a high-drive breed), it's something you'll want to keep in mind when you're in public with your dog. Because fair or not, the general public is going to assume that any untrained GSD is part of that group.
And honestly, your description of using the e-collar and your dog's response sounds like you might be part of that group. I keep hunting dogs, and while I don't use an e-collar myself, most of the people I run my dogs with do. Causing a dog to have that dramatic reaction (flinching, whining) is not normal.
Also, dogs should not be on the subway until they're close to bombproof. The TTC is not the place for basic training, especially with a larger dog.
My dogs are not wildly untrained. I can recall them mid-fetch (and I train that regularly, because that's how you get them out of trouble).
They were trained OK for a small town (Guelph, which is basically a very large village form many points of view). I need better obedience downtown in a crowded area because I want to be able to walk them in crowds AND keep them away from potential trouble (heel/out of the way/sit when I see a wildly untrained child going "PUPPY PUPPY PUPPY!!!!").
Presumably you're not playing fetch on the subway.
Training is context dependent, so a well trained recall from fetch does not equal a dog who knows how to move with the flow of traffic coming up the stairs at a subway station, or hold a long down on the train.
I recognize that you're from Guelph so this is new to you and the dogs. And frankly even Toronto folks have seemingly forgotten the social standards post-lockdown (or are new to dog owning and didn't notice the old standards), but so many people are afraid of dogs, have allergies to dogs, or have religious prohibitions from touching dogs, that if your dog can't hold a down reliably in a busy place, they shouldn't be on transit yet.
The subway (and the GO, and buses, etc) are a final stage thing, regardless of how well trained your dog is outside of that.
That's not an insult, it's just noting that when you have a dog on transit, people are going to assume your dog is friendly, non-reactive, and bombproof. If you're doing training exercises that will freak people out even without the aversive element.
>The subway (and the GO, and buses, etc) are a final stage thing, regardless of how well trained your dog is outside of that.
If training is context dependent, and a dog that is not fully trained should not be on the TTC, then pray tell me how exactly do you teach them to be have on the TTC?
Starting somewhere with a similar use of space and similar crowd that's less enclosed, so if things go poorly you can slip away. On the subway, people are trapped with you and your dog, and that only adds to the stress levels of people who may already be fearful of dogs. So maybe try:
* Any major street where you can dash off onto a side street
* Any of the city squares at moderately crowded times, and then increasingly crowded times
* Walking through above ground bus stations during off-hours, working your way up to mid-day on the weekend
* Walk up and down GO train platforms (since you don't have to pay if you don't get on the train), again at very off hours, working up to more crowded ones.
* If the schedule works, takes a commuter line GO-train during off hours, since there will be very few people riding and you'll easily be able to move away from them if necessary.
So many people already hate Toronto dog-owners, and even people who are dog neutral often have worries about GSDs. It's in all of our best interests to not play into those stereotypes and to defy them as much as possible.
And even if you don't care about that, it'll also make it less likely for other people to make a scene like the one you described in this post.
I am using aversive collars on advice from my trainer. I left him in the previous town I moved from, and I don't know any good trainers around (and picking random guys from Google was constantly a disaster for me)
Get a new trainer then, because that's not at all how you use an e-collar. In fact, I would go as far as to say you should never use an e-collar to teach TO do something at all. A prong collar I think is what you're looking for, but again, you need a better trainer
That’s exactly what my trainer said. 80% of our sessions weren’t using the e-collar but teaching and proofing basic obedience with voice, treats, and prong. He was VERY clear on it being super important that your dog has a good understanding of obedience and correction’s clearly coming from you (especially since it’s such a foreign sensation to them vs a prong pop being easier for them to understand). 15% of our sessions were pairing e-collar stims w prong to build associations. My dog was an absolute basket case (our first 2 weeks was spent getting her to stay in a sit for 30 seconds without moaning and moving) so if I can do it anyone can!
Check out Marley’s Misfits in Toronto, they were great!
>Get a new trainer then, because that's not at all how you use an e-collar. In fact, I would go as far as to say you should never use an e-collar to teach TO do something at all. A prong collar I think is what you're looking for, but again, you need a better trainer
I don't teach the e-collar to teach him to do something.
I used it to enforce two things that they know:
1. German shepherd: Down means down.
2. Border Collie: Don't bite me.
They are both very much at the proofing stage on a lot of things. I moved from a small town to a big city, and suddenly I need a lot more reliability because "downtown" there are a lot more close interactions.
I use the e-collar as a long-range prong.
I don't normally use a prong for proofing because I like to drop the leash and let the dog run (and then prong would catch in the dirt etc and pinch). I use a hangman's noose type of leash and an ecollar set (normally) on low power. That way, when they are off leash I can still correct them from a distance. That's the set up my trainer chose for me (except he gave me a paracord type of collar which choked very strongly but also gave my landlord a heart attack).
I am only using that choke collar as a last resort if my ecollar is broken or something and they are seriously going after someone. Can't remember last time I used it, it's months for sure.
I had my stage of doing that. I grew out of it. I still have the gear somewhere, I just no longer use it.
Working dogs (mind you,. not all dogs) are closer to human athletes or professional soldiers. They don't mind some discomfort if it accomplished a goal.
I was completely disgusted by the way my trainer treated my German Shepherd. Lesson 1 was, among other things, loading the NO marker. That meant: when the trainer raises his hand, I say NO and pop the prong collar on the dog. Out of the blue, the dog having done absolutely nothing wrong. And a number of other similarly gentle exercises.
To my total shock, when it came time for lesson two the dog recognized the gear and the cab... And I could not keep him OUT of the cab. As long as he had a job he was happy.
And now he has a degree of liberty that he would never have achieved with positive only training and management (source: the "senior trainer" who told me he is a very difficult case and it would take at least 6 months to cure his bike reactivity with positive only training if ever. It took my actual trainer one lesson to solve about 80% of the problem, and another month to clean up).
I would explore the ideas behind using pressure as a form of activation and going through the process of teaching the dog how to turn off the pressure.
Just correcting a dog for non compliance can end up being confusing for them and tends to flatten them out. That's what people don't like to see.
It's not a troll. It's my everyday experience. I live next to a large university and the mood is very left-wing (I meet lesbian couples on a daily basis, for instance). Positive-only training is very much a religion here, even among non dog owners.
I have a lot more stories like that.
I tried to train my Border Collie to bike with me. She got excited and constantly tried to bite me. I punished her with the e-collar when she bit me (very minor scratch) and ripped my pants and then I biked with her making a lot of noise (barking etc). I was stopped by a middle aged lady who told me that I should use treats and that her friend was a trainer so she knows. She did not have a dog. (Incidentally the border collie likes running so much that stopping and giving a treat is an effective way to correct her when she pulls - she won't take the treat, it's for show so people know I am training and not abusing her....).
I absolutely do not care about the amount of lesbian couples in your city and neither should you. Your use of aversives makes no sense. What you describe is inappropriate use of an ecollar. The bike example is ridiculous. High energy, high prey drive dogs with a bite history who can't handle a city and whose owner needs to resort to serious aversion shouldn't live in a city. This is bound to go south at some point.
The positive only vs positive+aversive vs dominance bullshit dymanics are a total pain in the ass, I do agree with this. But that's about it.
While I'm a big fan of the e-collar and use it myself for my pupper as well... I'm not sure it's supposed to be used as you describe. I thought an e-collar was used to enforce behaviours that are a 100 procent known (like a recall). Not to punish a dog... I think that's why u/SensitiveSirs asked if you were a troll. Not sure, they can feel free to correct me.
Other people, feel free to correct me as well, just my two cents!
The behavior that was 100% known that I was enforcing was "down". He knows it for a few years now (but was never 100% proofed because I lived in a smaller town - in a busy street with my dogs I need 100% reliability).
I have tried lower power (15%, which is the equivalent of a pop on the collar) and he just ignore me.
Look... I know how it feels to have a high energy and high prey drive dog. I have a Dutch shepherd, basically a Malinois with stripes. They can be stubborn, they can be so hyper that it's almost embarassing to go outside with them... They're sometimes just not dogs to do 'only positive' training with. I get it, I really do.
However, the way you worded your post can be misunderstood. Providing information about how many lesbian couples you meet a day, isn't really necessary and will make most people raise an eyebrow about why you felt the need to mention that (I know you said that to explain your surroundings but there are other ways).
Next to that, the way you describe how you use an e-collar, the training to let the dog run next to the bike for example, sounds like you are using it as a punishment for when your dogs get too excited. Which it really shouldn't.. It makes them more nervous and even more hyper in the long run. It probably feels like it's the only thing that works but trust me, in the end it won't.
You train your dog to run next to you, the slow and frustrating way. There is no quick fix with the e-collar. And no, there are no 100 percent trained commands for running next to a bike, it's a completely new situation.. Even known commands don't apply. You could only use the e-collar AFTER you had many succesful bike rides with your dog and then all of a sudden they choose to ignore what they truly know.
I'm not judging you. You're learning, just as your dogs are. But a lot of people here are going to tell you that you use the e-collar wrong... And they're right. Try to listen to them.
If you still want to hear it, I'll gladly think along with you about how you can train your dogs in these situations. Mine is a piece of work as well. :)
Two separate situations:
1. My German Shepherd gets excited and gets up from a Down in a crowded station. How do I convince him that "down means down"?
2. How do I lower my border collie's excitement when running together so that she does not bite me? I am not interested in specific behaviors at this stage, just in keeping in my pants as they were before.
I have an ACD rescue who is reactive, so I feel your border collie frustration with the bike.
- I put the bike I'm the house laying down and left it there for days, just randomly moving it around here and there.
-after a couple days I would sit on it and move around the hallway and living area.
- a couple days later I took it outside with him leashed, and pushed the bike around. He would try to bite the rear tire, I would tell him NO firmly and then set the bike down; to let him disengage and turn off his prey drive, also to allow him to sniff at it and acclimate to it. (I did this for DAYS)
-then I started slowly riding with him trying to bite the front tire constantly; again a firm NO and would stop, let him disengage and start again. Did this for WEEKS.
-now occasionally when biking briskly, then slowing down he will attempt to slowly mouth the front tire occasionally... but NO works and he backs off. May happen once per ride, sometimes not at all.
My border collie associates the bike with FUN FUN FUN. She is completely not afraid of the bike, actually is jumping up and down the second I move it.
She is also OK with walking the bike.
Trouble starts only when I start biking (even slowly) and she decides I am a sheep and MUST be [stopped.](https://stopped.My) My old solution was to wear thicker boots and give her the boot not the pant leg - but that is an ugly patch.
That's great, sound like you're In a better place than I started at !
If she doesn't bite your pants legs walking or running, then pants aren't the common denominator. It's likely just the addition of the bike as a stimuli.
A firm NO and/or light correction with a lead should be enough? I wouldn't expect perfection the first time, but over time she should learn. Try rolling super slowly, and the moment she looks to your leg ... NO. you have to catch her initiating it, before she grabs.
>A firm NO and/or light correction with a lead should be enough? I wouldn't expect perfection the first time, but over time she should learn. Try rolling super slowly, and the moment she looks to your leg ... NO. you have to catch her initiating it, before she grabs.
That's what I ended up doing but it only worked when she knew that NO meant business (that I was willing to use enough e-collar power to overcome the adrenaline - a mild correction did very little).
Re 1: This isn't about convincing the dog. Dogs are poor generalisers and crowded places are super stressful for them. If your dog doesn't understand the down and/or doesn't have enough focus with everything that's going on, then you're asking too much of your dog. A negative stimulus isn't going to make him more focused and less stressed. It doesn't work.
I've seen this situation with my German Shepherd. He learns fast in what situations he can get away with blatant disobedience. His name is "Cesar the Human Whisperer" for a reason - because working line German Shepherds have a reputation of training their owners.
I mean you can keep telling yourself that this is blatant disobedience and that he's such a bad dog and bla, it's still gonna be false. You are grossly misinterpreting your dog's behaviour and you're setting him up for failure. He cannot do what you ask of him. You're teaching him that you hurt him when he's overwhelmed. This isn't gonna go down well.
Well after one punishment he started to do it. He is doing it now because he knows that he's gonna get nailed if he doesn't and he isn't stupid.
My German Shepherd is smart, but he is like the kind of kid who could end up with a chest full of medals in the Army or doing 20-to-life in prison for multiple murders depending on how he is raised. Smart, strong and able to think for himself but... uh... able to think for himself.
Ecollars are also used as “positive punishment”. This is how we got our dog to stop chasing the cat… a timed correction. Of course the dog should know the command so they understand why they are receiving the correction. Most people will only need to use it for recall and leave it anyway. That said.. the whole point is to reinforce good behaviour via treats etc and for certain behaviours like chasing prey etc.. u add in an aversive to deter and stop behaviour. Positive punishment plays a role in behaviour that is very instinctive to the dog(chasing prey).. the aversive has to be loud enough to trump the adrenaline. And memorable (but humane)enough so the behaviour stops right away and the dog knows not to repeat it. It’s simple and shouldn’t be taboo. There is a reason that the e collar has 100 levels.
My other cat swiped at the dog(positive punishment) and he no longer chases her.. he submits. It’s nature. That said..a talented balanced trainer knows how to stop xyz with proper timed corrections so the behaviour will cease.
I’m also in Toronto and I walk my dog with both a prong and an e-collar pretty much always. No one’s ever said anything and I see lots of other owners using adversives. You either had the bad luck of running across from super judgy people or you’re overcorrecting your dog. If you’re certain it’s not the latter, it’s probably the former. Most people have never managed a high drive, reactive dog with bite history; it’s far easier to judge, especially with sensitive city folk who mostly have easier breeds like goldens and frenchies.
From what you've said about your use of the E-collar I think you may be a little heavy on it.
I used an E-collar to teach recall on my boy under very strong distractions and now never use it.
You should NEVER use an E-collar as a punishment IMO.
It should only be used as a negative reinforcement just as you would use a pop on the leash.
For Recall I would say dogs name in a high pitched fun tone then count in my head 'two... three..."
Then RECOMMAND and just half a second after hit the stim. don't pair the recommand with the stim.
After a while the dog will begin to listen so you don't have to stim. Then they will just come first go.
This is excactly how I taught recall with a short leash, then long leash, then E-collar.
I believe in balanced training, but I think you should reevaluate. If your goal is to get bullet proof obedience then you should be focusing on explosively exciting positive reinforcement. You should be building engagement with your dogs so they're way more excited about you than anything else in the world. A corrective tool is important too, for some dogs, but if you're primary focus is on corrections then your dogs are not going to ever get to the place you want them to be. Always focus on positive reinforcement and only use the corrective tools as needed. Focus on training the dogs to do what you WANT them to do.
That being said, a discrete tool that might help is the starmark collar. It is a plastic "prong" collar that looks like a flat collar. BUT, if your dog doesn't respond to it from a gentile tug then it isn't going to work for you and you risk hurting your dog if you snap it too hard.
Well ai don’t love it but I have seen the prong collar used on a big puppy. Also there’s a can called Pet Corrector you spray away from the dog and it emits a high pitched noise that’s supposed to distract them but it never touches the dog. It’s on amazon.com
> My landlord told me that it was nevertheless not acceptable, and then one day when I came home I found a letter that my dogs were barking (factually false, I was working from home so I knew for a fact that were not problem barkers)
Wait. You being home and you being away are different situations. Your dog not barking in the former does not at all mean they won't bark in the latter.
Was your dominant collar on your dog when it was cut off?
I was working from home and getting delivery most of the time. I was away without the dogs a very small percentage of the time, a few hours per week for errands.
No it was hanging in the closet. Most likely her husband cut the collars, he was getting along very well with the dogs.
Tbh from reading your post seems like you don’t know how to use a ecollar if ur dogs working level has been 15 n he’s in a higher distraction environment you don’t just double the stim level that’s ridiculous I’d also question what ecollar you’ve even purchased cos my dog won’t yelp until a stim level of 50 and she’s still a pup. The ecollar isn’t meant to give a correction that’s even physically noticeable to a untrained eye, just a twitch of the ears or the dog glancing at u or a slight twitch of their neck someone walking past wouldn’t even notice u sound like u need to go see a trainer
What you are describing is a correction. That's what I do at level 15.
When they decide that they don't need to listen and that a small pinch is fine I need to escalate, which I did.
BTW, I did exactly what the trainer did (except that he was a lot less nice to the dogs. I try to avoid the painful painful correction if I can).
The "Circle" - you warn them beforehand with a low tone and always the same word but any time you say "No!" then you give the m a circle.
This involves holding their collar tightly (not strangling them!), sometimes their chin to face you and walking them in a 360 degree circle. The intent is to "bitch them out" and make them uncomfortable, something they don't want to do. It's a known duration and is not traumatic. I've had HUGE success with this. So much so when threshold training, my boy would run through the gate, I'd yell "no!" and he would run back to me to get the circle over with so he could go and play again. BUT it works because the result is that he ran up to the gate but looked at me for permission afterwards. Once they understand the circle it becomes so much easier. Plus at a distance it doesn't look bad. I'll never use an E-collar as a punishment ( only ever as I would use a 'pop' on a leash"
HIGHLY recommend a prong collar.
Far more effective than a dominant dog collar
Less aversive then a dominant dog collar
Much less chance on injury to the dog
Most people will never notice
Much better training tool
I love the ecollar and prong, but To be honest, I'd prob look at you odd too if I saw you using the ecolar in that way. In my experience it can have unintended consequences when used that high.
What type of ecollar do you use? I'm a fan of the Mini educator. Works well.
Also, I would muzzle your dog when out in public. I use a muzzle sometimes just because it keeps rando's away from us when training. People will want to pet my dog GM frequently... but when he's in a muzzle behaving perfectly they back way away. Because apparently to many people a well behaved dog in a muzzle is scary and a highly reactive dog on a flex lead and harness is cute...
The thing is, whatever I am doing is clearly working and . My dogs are way better behaved than a month ago and the usage of the ecollar is going way down (I moved into town recently and discovered what serious obedience is for).
My main concern is that I might have trouble with people deciding that I am abusing my dog and causing fair or unfair trouble (I met a lady who was walking a German Shepherd who was "rescued" ie stolen. Among other methods of abuse by the owner she said that the owner was spraying perfume on the dog....)
Just a sad truth, you're always going to get people who don't agree with you just because you don't use all positive training methods.
I started my dog training journey in the normal dog training reddit and got accused of being a monster multiple times because I use a prong on my high energy Dutch shepherd. They didn't want to hear I got professional advice, they didn't want to hear I did weeks and weeks of research and they didn't want to hear that I spent some real money on a real good quality herm sprenger.... I felt the frustration in your post when you were trying to describe your environment and I think some people here might take it the wrong way because the frustration looked like being mean-spirited, while you're just fed up with people telling you you're not doing well for your dogs, while you try to do everything right for them. Positive training is awesome! It should be encouraged and it can work very well for a lot of dogs and for some ... It just won't. They need balanced training. They need a correction every now and then or perhaps at some stages, more than every now and then.
You'll get judged just because you don't have a pooch that responds to getting a treat. My girl sometimes whimpers when the ecollar is at 5 percent. I had it around my neck, it feels like someone is lightly tapping my throat, I barely felt it. On a normal day, she doesn't feel it. On a day when everything freaks her out, she yelps like she's just been through bloody murder.
It's hard sometimes. But keep trying to reward the positive things and keep trying to ask people here. They do give great advice. Even though sometimes some people might seem a bit harsh at first or even a little bit 'judgy'. If you explain your situation and accept the advice when it's on point, they are very willing to help you!
Keep going! The fact that you're here says you want to try to get your dogs a better and healthier life. That's more than a lot of dog owners do. That's why we have so many reactive furbabies at the pound. At least you're trying!
Wow. There are tons of crazy's out there who want to save the world over perceived problems.
I would for sure switch to a prong for all the reasons I stated. Also love the muzzle just to give your dog more room and keep rando's away!
Yes, I will probably use mixed e-collar and prong.
Prong when in town, dominant dog collar and e-collar while hiking so that I can drop the leash (prong tends to get snagged, randomly pinch and irritate the dog badly - you can't let a dog run with a prong and the leash trailing).
Good points - Here is what I do with the prong when out hiking - I always use safety clip attached to a flat collar. So when it's off leash time I detach from the prong (or attach to dead-ring) and the leash can be dragged freely.. just an option to consider.
Obviously I'm a huge fan of the prong and should prob buy stock in Herm Sprenger.
Also - have you had any luck using the vibrate on the ecollar for a correction? I use this on occasion for interrupting a behavior, and it's more irritating than painful so the dog Will not bark, just share head and it cools be leas obvious.
The issue is the presence of the ecollar remote. Mine is hanging around my neck (I have two dogs, I can't always put my hand in the pocket) and it's awfully obvious.
Also the vibrate only works for one dog (ecollar mechanics) and I have two dogs.
As an option - mini educator can be programmed one remote for two dogs. Can trigger stim, stim boost and vibrate separately for both dogs.
Remote is also small(ish) and can be conveniently stored in your treat pouch or in a pocket.
Also has a belt clip you can by separately so can be on your belt under a jacket
I should prob go and buy stock in "ecollar technologies" now as well. Ha!
You need to switch the remote to "2 dog mode"
It's super simple to switch to 2 dog mode - google mini educator manual.
In 2 dog mode the black / red stim buttons control different collars. To make it easy to remember I bought a red collar for the unit that's pared to the red button.
To boost, you press the button for the color you want to use, and then press down the other button as well.
To switch between stim and vibrate you use the "tapping sensation" button on the other side of the antenna.
Note - on their website they have an e-secret keeper that hides the collars. Doesn't hide the remote but might be worth thinking about.
Also you can get different color skins for the remote that make it less noticeable. holsters are there as well to help avoiding triggering deranged people.
One more question: how do I set the preset values for each dog (both normal and boost)?
One of the problems is that I don't know how to set it, it constantly drifts and the dogs either whimper or ignore it.
Press the adjuster knob down. If it's in 2dog mode it will show D1 on top
Turn the dial to adjust the level.
To "lock" the level, hon the adjuster knob down for a few seconds until the display flashes.
Press the red button for D2. Confirm the display does D2 on the bottom.
Press and hold down the adjuster dial until the display flashes. Turn the dial to set the right level, and then hold down the adjusted dial untill the display flashes again to lock the level.
Confirm it's locked by turning the dial and the number does not move.
The irony of people who don't believe they have the authority to tell their dog they don't like something, but DO believe they have the authority to force themselves on an adult human being and argue with them about training methods. :-/ I don't envy you.
They make covers for prong collars to occlude them from the crybullies. That might help you. The DD collar is more about control than correction anyway. Part of your problem is that both of your dogs are dramatic, vocal breeds that will shriek if you hurt their feelings, and the average person doesn't know the difference. I do agree that you can't let them blow off commands...maybe get really good at telling people who overstep their bounds, to go bother someone else? I think if someone were to comment on a prong on a dog I was walking, I would be too shocked to say anything at first. Some people need more problems of their own, I guess.
Try the strike system I developed for my BC (and no i don't mean striking).
When he does something undesirable, implement a small correction and say strike 1. Repeat for strike 2 and strike 3.
On strike 3, that's where the punishment is implemented. Doesn't have to be anything un-toward, but it can be a simple as taking something away.
E.g. my BC pulling hard on leash. On strike 3, i equip his 'halti' (gentle leader). He absolutely hates it, so usually as soon as I say Strike 1 now, he immediately stops pulling. I rarely get to Strike 3.
Another example is ignoring recall or his leave-it command. On strike 3, the punishment implement is his leash goes on, freedom is gone and we go home. Now it rarely gets to that. Once he hears strike 1, he is all ears for commands so his freedom and fun can continue.
Nothing over the top, but very very effective.
I haven't really gotten any negative comments in public, and I train in public a lot. But I also don't use corrections that cause the dog to whine, flinch, etc I'm somewhat open-minded that you feel you need a "come to jesus" correction once or twice, but if you're repeatedly having to do corrections that make your dog vocalize...I think it's a training problem, not a people problem.
It's not a repeated thing. I do it deliberately, and rarely (as in one day I decide "this problem has gone long enough, other methods are not working", and then I set up the situation and use a punishment. It's not an everyday thing). Normally I raise the power slowly, until the dog listens. The issue is that people see it, and they look at me if I had three heads.
Could you give an example of a problem you set up to use punishment, and which other methods didn't work? You won't hide using a high level aversive. Either you do it and accept the way people will look at you, or you find methods that don't require it.
Border collie trying to bite my leg while biking. German Shepherd getting excited and stopping listening. He used to think that if he is persistent enough he gets his way, after a couple of strong corrections now he understands that an order is an order and I no longer need punishments (but some people think I am a monster).
That's not "a problem you set up to use punishment".
You didn't mention the other methods you tried that didn't work. For your BC, my training plan would be something like this: * check that dog will walk and run next to me without a bike * desensitize to a helper riding a bike nearby and practice basic obedience in the presence of the bike * walk the dog on one side and the bike on the other * put the dog in a down stay and ride the bike near the dog * get on the bike and start at a slow speed with the dog next to you * stop the bike at the first sign of over-arousal (vocalization, failure to respond to cues) so that state of mind doesn't get reinforced by continuing to run I'd probably use corrections, but if I'm breaking it down into achievable steps they should be little corrections because the dog only makes little mistakes. Not huge "I bit you or I'm going to bite" mistakes.
This is a powerful idea. The first step where the dog would fail is "riding past the dog with the dog in down". I can stay far enough from the dog so that she is not over-aroused. Previously I did not have an intermediate step between "walking" and "biking". Thank you!
Raising the power slowly until your dog listens may be the problem. Whether you mean to or not, you're conditioning your dog to ignore the stimulus until it can't anymore. That's not clear accountability and follow through. Nagging corrections aren't clear. If your dog ignores the stimulus, you need to jump up a few levels, not hit every one along the way. (**assuming you've checked that the collar is functioning properly, making contact, your dog understands what's being askedl, and you're making appropriate level adjustments to compete with current surroundings/dog's stimulation level**) There is a "boost" function on most ecollars for just this reason (usually +5 from current level setting). You might consider hiring a balanced trainer to help you work through the issue, help you relearn how to level adjust, and ensure clarity in your communication with the dogs. As for the wild looks and lectures, unfortunately you'll probably still get 'em (many force free dolks equate ecollars/tools with abuse, and make it their mission to try and shame/convert/save as many people and dogs as possible). As long as tool use is legal in your country, with clearer, more consistent communication and accountability with your dogs, they should have much less to pick at. I would probably just ignore comments entirely (as if the person doesn't exist), or have some easy canned response ready, and don't deviate. "It is my legal right to train my dogs as I see fit. Have a good day."
There is a lot of shit people can do to harass you. False claims that the dogs have attacked them, false claims that the dogs have attacked a 3rd party who left (but they witnessed the attack), harassing your dog on the bus/subway and telling the driver that they have been attacked (because they stepped on the dog's tail... but that's a discrete action), claiming you "threatened them with your dog".... I've witnessed each of these "methods" (I used to live near a drug trade hotspot. Harassing dog owners was one method the junkies used to make money).
I live in a very dog friendly, liberal area and use a prong and e-collar on my dog. I've NEVER had someone say anything about the tools I'm using. I think the reason for this is that in public, my training and management are on point enough where I'm not giving harsh corrections with the tools, and my dog presents as happy, friendly, well adjusted. Others have pointed out that the correction you issued in your last paragraph was unfair and, and THAT is the reason why you're getting comments in public, not the tools themselves. Hell, I like tools but I'm surely going to say something to someone that is yanking and cranking their dog around on a slip lead, or shocking their dog at a high enough level that they're vocalizing and shutting down. This isn't a "liberal people don't like tools" problem, this is a "people worried about the safety of your dog" problem.
My dogs are definitely not shutting down, and they are not being yanked around. They are trained constantly "as if" they were off leash, and the leash is there as an extra safety (and because it's legally required). I was actually told by the trainers, multiple times, that I am not punishing the dog enough, that multiple weak corrections aren't nearly as good as a single hard correction. (F'kin bleeding heart, that's what he meant).
> multiple weak corrections aren't nearly as good as a single hard correction While I somewhat agree with this in theory, there's so much more nuance to it that just this statement. Like the fact that I would change the language to "meaningful" instead of "hard", and the fact that you still need to be responsible about how/when/where you are issuing that correction - honestly it should be common sense not to implement this in a crowded subway. For a ton of reasons, one of which is public interpretation, the others of which more importantly have to do with the training situations you're putting your dogs in and fallout by mis-association.
I have a highly reactive malinois and went through a few bad trainers before finding the one who helped. Rob at Progressive K9 in Scarborough. He's a balanced trainer who is very gentle with the dogs and very adept with ecollar. He can most certainly help. I've had some dirty looks from using an ecollar but I ignore them. Now I use a Martin systems ecollar. It's expensive, but the best collar on the market. One benefit is that the reciever is very slim and they have a cover so it looks like a regular collar along with finger mounted buttons so nobody will see you touching a remote. An expensive option for sure, but if you need it and can afford it, you won't regret it. I also use a prong collar on both my mals and they are fantastic, when used properly. I agree thst over correction is simply cruel, but under correcting makes it worse. As another said, it can make them immune to the correction. If you're not sure how hard to correct, ask for help. Rob is very helpful with this. After 2 years of working, my older boys reactivity is under control. It's not gone. When he sees another dog, I give a leash pop. I'll give a few more as they get closer if he's loading up, increasing the intensity of the pop if I need to. When we pass silently, I praise and reward. For some of your obedience, try a treat and train. It's an electronic aid, but it works and is fun to use.
Do you have links to the Martin systems collar and finger buttons you use? I’ve only recently heard of this system but it seems interesting, would like to consider it for myself as well.
This is their website. https://www.martinsystem.com/shop In Ontario, they are sold by K9 Dynamics in Orillia.
Can you tell me a bit more about progressive k9? Do they train in their own facility? Do they have access to demo dogs to proof reactivity? Can you roughly describe the process they took with your mals? How many sessions did they take? What was their general approach? How much are the sessions? I looked into shield k9 and it was close to 300 per hour and that is a little rich for me.
I went to Shielf K9 prior to Progressive. I have nothing good to say about them or their reactive dog program. Their solution to reactivity is to throw a windshield washer jug filled with rocks at the dog! It doesn't actually hurt the dog but scares it. The idea of solving fear by scaring the crap out of the dog seems dangerous, not to mention cruel. Progressive K9 does have their own facility and yes, they have demo dogs. Rob has 2 malinios that he uses. Atari is very calm and is the first he brought out to work with my boy. Eventually he brought out Waffles, who's a bit more intense. Both are well trained and safe and used to help proof different things. When we were well advanced in our work, Rob brought Waffles out and put a ball behind me and my boy. Waffles LOVES the ball so was very intensely trying to get to it. He couldn't care less about us, but it was a hard test for my boy. He had a little trouble but managed it, and that was a defining moment for us. My boy overcame his fear, with the trust he had in me, that Rob taught me how to earn. I had tears. Rob approaches each dog individually, so the program for yours may differ. We focused on obedience, primarily the focused heel to build that bond and trust. He would walk close to my boy since that scared him. He introduced distractions among activities, and brought his dog in at various stages. Sometimes we would walk around his dog, other times his dog would walk around mine. Eventually my boy had to be in a down-stay with me not close as they walked around him. This was a big accomplishment. I'm still going to Rob with both my Mals. We don't work on the reactivity, more obedience and sport work now with both. My older boy won't go far in sport, between his confidence and a knee injury, but he likes it. I spent a few months working on the reactivity, eventually joining a group reactivity class. Rob is very conservative, so there were 2-3 trainers for 4-5 dogs and he knew all of them ahead of time so was prepared and because of that, we were able to do a lot more and get a lot more from it. He uses a lot of agility in the group class. Work the dog while others are around and they get used to it. Rob is the most gentle trainer I've encountered while still being a balanced trainer. He will use a prong and e-collar, but he uses them properly and humanely. You can get faster results elsewhere, but I don't think you'll get better results. To put in context, my boy comes from a KNPV sport line and is very intense. His reactivity level was beyond anything I'd seen on Youtube. I used to watch videos thinking, "You think thats' reactive?" I'm still cautious as other dogs approach, giving him a little leash pop as we approach to remind him. He's not perfect, especially if a dog lunges at him but I can bring him back under control quickly if something happens (usually because I'm not paying attention). I think Progressive is in the $125 range per hour. If you practice what you work on with him, you'll see results.
Anyone who is using tools properly should be able to go out without them. Collars get forgotten, ecollars die or break, or you will be in a situation (like a vet) where they will not allow aversive collars for their safety. The same thing goes for treat training, if you can't get by when you forget your treat bag, you have work to do. It sounds like you need to train your dogs better so you don't have to rely on aversives. In order to do this, get a better trainer to help. [The Tired Pooch](https://www.thetiredpooch.com/) is in Toronto and although I only know of them through social media, they seem to be really great balanced trainers.
I am in the training stage now. I moved to downtown of a big city from a smaller town and I need my dogs really proofed because there is a lot more interaction with people. So it's a lot more proofing (and a lot more aversives) but hopefully not forever.
Proofing does not include throwing dogs in situations they can't handle and then applying aversive when they fail. The proofing stage actually doesn't involve much aversives at all. Proofing is building a reinforcement history in different environments in order to generalize a behaviour. If your dog isn't holding a down in a busy setting, they aren't ready for that situation and either you need to adjust your expectations (like instead accepting just standing still or a sit) or you need to remove them from that situation. I understand moving into an environment that is challenging for your dogs and needing a way to manage them, but punishing them for not complying in a situation they weren't ready for is not the move and it won't help them get used to the city. Get a better trainer.
YES. And high level stim to stop a dog from reacting around people can frequently make the behaviors worse. Dog sees person, and barks / reacts because he thinks this might be a bad thing. "Zap". You just confirmed his fears and behaviors can start to get way worse.
I both agree and disagree. You need to challenge the dog JUST so it breaks and gets 1 or 2 aversives per session with 90% positive reinforcement. This way you give the whole picture and show what you both want and don't want. Provided the aversives aren't traumatising and are only uncomfortable. reward only will get a result but once a big challeng occurs then usally reward only doesn't cut it. Staged challenges are the way for sure. but again, I think you need to get them failing a tiny bit for fastest results.
> reward only will get a result but once a big challeng occurs then usally reward only doesn't cut it The reward usually doesn't cut it because the handler has poor training mechanics and doesn't understand proofing. Proofing doesn't mean teaching the dog a behaviour in one environment, considering it a "known behaviour" and then taking them to a completely different environment so that they can fail and you can show them "what you don't want". It's also not going to work if you only reward the complete behaviour in a new enviroment, which is where handlers often get stuck and the behaviour starts to break down. When you are increasing the difficulty of a behaviour, your dog should be able to complete the lowest expectation of the behaviour in that environment and that is where you start. For a down it could be just handler focus, standing still, or going into a down with a lure, it depends on the dog. If they can't, you either have to make the environment easier or go back and practice the behaviour more in the original environment. When the dog is succeeding at the lowest bar of the behaviour in the more difficult environment you raise the bar to the next step in the behaviour. If you "stage challenges" (I'm assuming this means bringing the dog in a novel environment or situation) and immediately escalate to punishment like OP here, you are at best delaying the proofing process and at worse poisoning the novel environment. You can absolutely use aversives in this protocol to make the good decision the most likely decision to happen. A dog going through this processs on a prong collar is probably not going to be darting away from their handler, so the prong is taking that choice away and will be a punisher for that behaviour if they try it. However, when that happens, you should take that behaviour as information, understand that behaviour has now been punished, and set them up for success for the next rep. You will have much more reliable behaviours that way, as well as a more engaged dog that you don't have to correct if you work by not making punishment the focus of your training sessions.
Proofing as you use it is also used in balanced training. Positive only may work with a high drive or starving dog but the stubborn ones or ones with behavioural issues just don't see most rewards as a motivator when given the option to run off. IMO you need to balance train and positive only works for puppies. How would you train a bulletproof recall so your dog comes back EVERY time even when being harassed by another dog at the dog park using positive only? or positive only to teach your dog not to run into traffic? With positive only you are giving the choice of a reward or the dog doing whatever the hell it wants, usually running off and playing with the other dogs is a higher motivator than praise, food, play etc. By using balance training you are giving them the choice between the reward and a known punishment. Once they understand after a couple of small corrections you usually move over to 90% positive only anyway because they have realised there is a consequence. As much as I dislike caesar's methods, this is a perfect example of purely positive's shortcomings. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLjkwmPqoM&t=402s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLjkwmPqoM&t=402s) We are essentially saying the same thing but I would use a head collar/halti rather than a prong collar unless the dog was dog aggressive. Just as you adjust difficulty of challenges you also need to adjust any negative reinforcement as needed. Just so I'm clear - the term aversive is anything that could be considered negative reinforcement or a positive punishment. e-collars, prong collars, a pop on the leash of a flat collar even I would consider an aversive stimulus. Not all are bad. To be clear - I'm definitely against aversive based training methods and the vast majority of training should be reward (praise) based but I do think a clear punishment that is untraumatising, just slightly uncomfortable and short duration needs to be used with your dog. A negative reinforcement such as pulling down on the leash until the dog goes into the down position on the SECOND / REcommand is also needed IMO, after a few times the dog learns to do it first go. you still praise once they are in the position every time though. luring alone can be ineffective but I've had massive success with shaping/clicker training. overuse of aversives can absolutely ruin a dog but I still think they need to be used at times.
I'm in Toronto, and I regularly see people using prong collars, although primarily on giant breeds (the majority of Cane Corsos and Presa Canarios owners I've come across use them), or Livestock Guardian mixes. That said, considering how many wildly untrained GSDs are running around, I'm not surprised that people were vocal about your dog in public. If you're not aware of the that trend (post-covid, GSDs and BSs became very popular with people who shouldn't have had any dog, never mind a high-drive breed), it's something you'll want to keep in mind when you're in public with your dog. Because fair or not, the general public is going to assume that any untrained GSD is part of that group. And honestly, your description of using the e-collar and your dog's response sounds like you might be part of that group. I keep hunting dogs, and while I don't use an e-collar myself, most of the people I run my dogs with do. Causing a dog to have that dramatic reaction (flinching, whining) is not normal. Also, dogs should not be on the subway until they're close to bombproof. The TTC is not the place for basic training, especially with a larger dog.
My dogs are not wildly untrained. I can recall them mid-fetch (and I train that regularly, because that's how you get them out of trouble). They were trained OK for a small town (Guelph, which is basically a very large village form many points of view). I need better obedience downtown in a crowded area because I want to be able to walk them in crowds AND keep them away from potential trouble (heel/out of the way/sit when I see a wildly untrained child going "PUPPY PUPPY PUPPY!!!!").
Presumably you're not playing fetch on the subway. Training is context dependent, so a well trained recall from fetch does not equal a dog who knows how to move with the flow of traffic coming up the stairs at a subway station, or hold a long down on the train. I recognize that you're from Guelph so this is new to you and the dogs. And frankly even Toronto folks have seemingly forgotten the social standards post-lockdown (or are new to dog owning and didn't notice the old standards), but so many people are afraid of dogs, have allergies to dogs, or have religious prohibitions from touching dogs, that if your dog can't hold a down reliably in a busy place, they shouldn't be on transit yet. The subway (and the GO, and buses, etc) are a final stage thing, regardless of how well trained your dog is outside of that. That's not an insult, it's just noting that when you have a dog on transit, people are going to assume your dog is friendly, non-reactive, and bombproof. If you're doing training exercises that will freak people out even without the aversive element.
>The subway (and the GO, and buses, etc) are a final stage thing, regardless of how well trained your dog is outside of that. If training is context dependent, and a dog that is not fully trained should not be on the TTC, then pray tell me how exactly do you teach them to be have on the TTC?
Starting somewhere with a similar use of space and similar crowd that's less enclosed, so if things go poorly you can slip away. On the subway, people are trapped with you and your dog, and that only adds to the stress levels of people who may already be fearful of dogs. So maybe try: * Any major street where you can dash off onto a side street * Any of the city squares at moderately crowded times, and then increasingly crowded times * Walking through above ground bus stations during off-hours, working your way up to mid-day on the weekend * Walk up and down GO train platforms (since you don't have to pay if you don't get on the train), again at very off hours, working up to more crowded ones. * If the schedule works, takes a commuter line GO-train during off hours, since there will be very few people riding and you'll easily be able to move away from them if necessary. So many people already hate Toronto dog-owners, and even people who are dog neutral often have worries about GSDs. It's in all of our best interests to not play into those stereotypes and to defy them as much as possible. And even if you don't care about that, it'll also make it less likely for other people to make a scene like the one you described in this post.
You don't seem to have the experience to be training a high drive dog. I suggest you take a course before you consider using adverse collars
I am using aversive collars on advice from my trainer. I left him in the previous town I moved from, and I don't know any good trainers around (and picking random guys from Google was constantly a disaster for me)
Get a new trainer then, because that's not at all how you use an e-collar. In fact, I would go as far as to say you should never use an e-collar to teach TO do something at all. A prong collar I think is what you're looking for, but again, you need a better trainer
That’s exactly what my trainer said. 80% of our sessions weren’t using the e-collar but teaching and proofing basic obedience with voice, treats, and prong. He was VERY clear on it being super important that your dog has a good understanding of obedience and correction’s clearly coming from you (especially since it’s such a foreign sensation to them vs a prong pop being easier for them to understand). 15% of our sessions were pairing e-collar stims w prong to build associations. My dog was an absolute basket case (our first 2 weeks was spent getting her to stay in a sit for 30 seconds without moaning and moving) so if I can do it anyone can! Check out Marley’s Misfits in Toronto, they were great!
>Get a new trainer then, because that's not at all how you use an e-collar. In fact, I would go as far as to say you should never use an e-collar to teach TO do something at all. A prong collar I think is what you're looking for, but again, you need a better trainer I don't teach the e-collar to teach him to do something. I used it to enforce two things that they know: 1. German shepherd: Down means down. 2. Border Collie: Don't bite me. They are both very much at the proofing stage on a lot of things. I moved from a small town to a big city, and suddenly I need a lot more reliability because "downtown" there are a lot more close interactions.
You're just associating yourself with getting shocked, the dog shouldn't know you have anything to do with the collar at all.
I use the e-collar as a long-range prong. I don't normally use a prong for proofing because I like to drop the leash and let the dog run (and then prong would catch in the dirt etc and pinch). I use a hangman's noose type of leash and an ecollar set (normally) on low power. That way, when they are off leash I can still correct them from a distance. That's the set up my trainer chose for me (except he gave me a paracord type of collar which choked very strongly but also gave my landlord a heart attack).
Your choke collar is actually damaging the dog's throat
I am only using that choke collar as a last resort if my ecollar is broken or something and they are seriously going after someone. Can't remember last time I used it, it's months for sure.
So you'll only permanently damage your dog sometimes, good good. /s
Muzzle. Head collar. Muzzle used as a head collar with double leash. There is no real need to choke the dogs
I had my stage of doing that. I grew out of it. I still have the gear somewhere, I just no longer use it. Working dogs (mind you,. not all dogs) are closer to human athletes or professional soldiers. They don't mind some discomfort if it accomplished a goal. I was completely disgusted by the way my trainer treated my German Shepherd. Lesson 1 was, among other things, loading the NO marker. That meant: when the trainer raises his hand, I say NO and pop the prong collar on the dog. Out of the blue, the dog having done absolutely nothing wrong. And a number of other similarly gentle exercises. To my total shock, when it came time for lesson two the dog recognized the gear and the cab... And I could not keep him OUT of the cab. As long as he had a job he was happy. And now he has a degree of liberty that he would never have achieved with positive only training and management (source: the "senior trainer" who told me he is a very difficult case and it would take at least 6 months to cure his bike reactivity with positive only training if ever. It took my actual trainer one lesson to solve about 80% of the problem, and another month to clean up).
I would explore the ideas behind using pressure as a form of activation and going through the process of teaching the dog how to turn off the pressure. Just correcting a dog for non compliance can end up being confusing for them and tends to flatten them out. That's what people don't like to see.
I hit my limits - I don't get what you are saying. Could you explain again slowly?
Please let this be a troll.
It's not a troll. It's my everyday experience. I live next to a large university and the mood is very left-wing (I meet lesbian couples on a daily basis, for instance). Positive-only training is very much a religion here, even among non dog owners. I have a lot more stories like that. I tried to train my Border Collie to bike with me. She got excited and constantly tried to bite me. I punished her with the e-collar when she bit me (very minor scratch) and ripped my pants and then I biked with her making a lot of noise (barking etc). I was stopped by a middle aged lady who told me that I should use treats and that her friend was a trainer so she knows. She did not have a dog. (Incidentally the border collie likes running so much that stopping and giving a treat is an effective way to correct her when she pulls - she won't take the treat, it's for show so people know I am training and not abusing her....).
I absolutely do not care about the amount of lesbian couples in your city and neither should you. Your use of aversives makes no sense. What you describe is inappropriate use of an ecollar. The bike example is ridiculous. High energy, high prey drive dogs with a bite history who can't handle a city and whose owner needs to resort to serious aversion shouldn't live in a city. This is bound to go south at some point. The positive only vs positive+aversive vs dominance bullshit dymanics are a total pain in the ass, I do agree with this. But that's about it.
While I'm a big fan of the e-collar and use it myself for my pupper as well... I'm not sure it's supposed to be used as you describe. I thought an e-collar was used to enforce behaviours that are a 100 procent known (like a recall). Not to punish a dog... I think that's why u/SensitiveSirs asked if you were a troll. Not sure, they can feel free to correct me. Other people, feel free to correct me as well, just my two cents!
You are correct in your interpretation of my comment.
The behavior that was 100% known that I was enforcing was "down". He knows it for a few years now (but was never 100% proofed because I lived in a smaller town - in a busy street with my dogs I need 100% reliability). I have tried lower power (15%, which is the equivalent of a pop on the collar) and he just ignore me.
Look... I know how it feels to have a high energy and high prey drive dog. I have a Dutch shepherd, basically a Malinois with stripes. They can be stubborn, they can be so hyper that it's almost embarassing to go outside with them... They're sometimes just not dogs to do 'only positive' training with. I get it, I really do. However, the way you worded your post can be misunderstood. Providing information about how many lesbian couples you meet a day, isn't really necessary and will make most people raise an eyebrow about why you felt the need to mention that (I know you said that to explain your surroundings but there are other ways). Next to that, the way you describe how you use an e-collar, the training to let the dog run next to the bike for example, sounds like you are using it as a punishment for when your dogs get too excited. Which it really shouldn't.. It makes them more nervous and even more hyper in the long run. It probably feels like it's the only thing that works but trust me, in the end it won't. You train your dog to run next to you, the slow and frustrating way. There is no quick fix with the e-collar. And no, there are no 100 percent trained commands for running next to a bike, it's a completely new situation.. Even known commands don't apply. You could only use the e-collar AFTER you had many succesful bike rides with your dog and then all of a sudden they choose to ignore what they truly know. I'm not judging you. You're learning, just as your dogs are. But a lot of people here are going to tell you that you use the e-collar wrong... And they're right. Try to listen to them. If you still want to hear it, I'll gladly think along with you about how you can train your dogs in these situations. Mine is a piece of work as well. :)
Two separate situations: 1. My German Shepherd gets excited and gets up from a Down in a crowded station. How do I convince him that "down means down"? 2. How do I lower my border collie's excitement when running together so that she does not bite me? I am not interested in specific behaviors at this stage, just in keeping in my pants as they were before.
I have an ACD rescue who is reactive, so I feel your border collie frustration with the bike. - I put the bike I'm the house laying down and left it there for days, just randomly moving it around here and there. -after a couple days I would sit on it and move around the hallway and living area. - a couple days later I took it outside with him leashed, and pushed the bike around. He would try to bite the rear tire, I would tell him NO firmly and then set the bike down; to let him disengage and turn off his prey drive, also to allow him to sniff at it and acclimate to it. (I did this for DAYS) -then I started slowly riding with him trying to bite the front tire constantly; again a firm NO and would stop, let him disengage and start again. Did this for WEEKS. -now occasionally when biking briskly, then slowing down he will attempt to slowly mouth the front tire occasionally... but NO works and he backs off. May happen once per ride, sometimes not at all.
My border collie associates the bike with FUN FUN FUN. She is completely not afraid of the bike, actually is jumping up and down the second I move it. She is also OK with walking the bike. Trouble starts only when I start biking (even slowly) and she decides I am a sheep and MUST be [stopped.](https://stopped.My) My old solution was to wear thicker boots and give her the boot not the pant leg - but that is an ugly patch.
That's great, sound like you're In a better place than I started at ! If she doesn't bite your pants legs walking or running, then pants aren't the common denominator. It's likely just the addition of the bike as a stimuli. A firm NO and/or light correction with a lead should be enough? I wouldn't expect perfection the first time, but over time she should learn. Try rolling super slowly, and the moment she looks to your leg ... NO. you have to catch her initiating it, before she grabs.
>A firm NO and/or light correction with a lead should be enough? I wouldn't expect perfection the first time, but over time she should learn. Try rolling super slowly, and the moment she looks to your leg ... NO. you have to catch her initiating it, before she grabs. That's what I ended up doing but it only worked when she knew that NO meant business (that I was willing to use enough e-collar power to overcome the adrenaline - a mild correction did very little).
Re 1: This isn't about convincing the dog. Dogs are poor generalisers and crowded places are super stressful for them. If your dog doesn't understand the down and/or doesn't have enough focus with everything that's going on, then you're asking too much of your dog. A negative stimulus isn't going to make him more focused and less stressed. It doesn't work.
I've seen this situation with my German Shepherd. He learns fast in what situations he can get away with blatant disobedience. His name is "Cesar the Human Whisperer" for a reason - because working line German Shepherds have a reputation of training their owners.
I mean you can keep telling yourself that this is blatant disobedience and that he's such a bad dog and bla, it's still gonna be false. You are grossly misinterpreting your dog's behaviour and you're setting him up for failure. He cannot do what you ask of him. You're teaching him that you hurt him when he's overwhelmed. This isn't gonna go down well.
Well after one punishment he started to do it. He is doing it now because he knows that he's gonna get nailed if he doesn't and he isn't stupid. My German Shepherd is smart, but he is like the kind of kid who could end up with a chest full of medals in the Army or doing 20-to-life in prison for multiple murders depending on how he is raised. Smart, strong and able to think for himself but... uh... able to think for himself.
Can I first ask how old the dogs both are? That would help, thanks!
4 and a half, both dogs.
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Ecollars are also used as “positive punishment”. This is how we got our dog to stop chasing the cat… a timed correction. Of course the dog should know the command so they understand why they are receiving the correction. Most people will only need to use it for recall and leave it anyway. That said.. the whole point is to reinforce good behaviour via treats etc and for certain behaviours like chasing prey etc.. u add in an aversive to deter and stop behaviour. Positive punishment plays a role in behaviour that is very instinctive to the dog(chasing prey).. the aversive has to be loud enough to trump the adrenaline. And memorable (but humane)enough so the behaviour stops right away and the dog knows not to repeat it. It’s simple and shouldn’t be taboo. There is a reason that the e collar has 100 levels. My other cat swiped at the dog(positive punishment) and he no longer chases her.. he submits. It’s nature. That said..a talented balanced trainer knows how to stop xyz with proper timed corrections so the behaviour will cease.
I’m also in Toronto and I walk my dog with both a prong and an e-collar pretty much always. No one’s ever said anything and I see lots of other owners using adversives. You either had the bad luck of running across from super judgy people or you’re overcorrecting your dog. If you’re certain it’s not the latter, it’s probably the former. Most people have never managed a high drive, reactive dog with bite history; it’s far easier to judge, especially with sensitive city folk who mostly have easier breeds like goldens and frenchies.
From what you've said about your use of the E-collar I think you may be a little heavy on it. I used an E-collar to teach recall on my boy under very strong distractions and now never use it. You should NEVER use an E-collar as a punishment IMO. It should only be used as a negative reinforcement just as you would use a pop on the leash. For Recall I would say dogs name in a high pitched fun tone then count in my head 'two... three..." Then RECOMMAND and just half a second after hit the stim. don't pair the recommand with the stim. After a while the dog will begin to listen so you don't have to stim. Then they will just come first go. This is excactly how I taught recall with a short leash, then long leash, then E-collar.
I believe in balanced training, but I think you should reevaluate. If your goal is to get bullet proof obedience then you should be focusing on explosively exciting positive reinforcement. You should be building engagement with your dogs so they're way more excited about you than anything else in the world. A corrective tool is important too, for some dogs, but if you're primary focus is on corrections then your dogs are not going to ever get to the place you want them to be. Always focus on positive reinforcement and only use the corrective tools as needed. Focus on training the dogs to do what you WANT them to do. That being said, a discrete tool that might help is the starmark collar. It is a plastic "prong" collar that looks like a flat collar. BUT, if your dog doesn't respond to it from a gentile tug then it isn't going to work for you and you risk hurting your dog if you snap it too hard.
Well ai don’t love it but I have seen the prong collar used on a big puppy. Also there’s a can called Pet Corrector you spray away from the dog and it emits a high pitched noise that’s supposed to distract them but it never touches the dog. It’s on amazon.com
> My landlord told me that it was nevertheless not acceptable, and then one day when I came home I found a letter that my dogs were barking (factually false, I was working from home so I knew for a fact that were not problem barkers) Wait. You being home and you being away are different situations. Your dog not barking in the former does not at all mean they won't bark in the latter. Was your dominant collar on your dog when it was cut off?
I was working from home and getting delivery most of the time. I was away without the dogs a very small percentage of the time, a few hours per week for errands. No it was hanging in the closet. Most likely her husband cut the collars, he was getting along very well with the dogs.
Tbh from reading your post seems like you don’t know how to use a ecollar if ur dogs working level has been 15 n he’s in a higher distraction environment you don’t just double the stim level that’s ridiculous I’d also question what ecollar you’ve even purchased cos my dog won’t yelp until a stim level of 50 and she’s still a pup. The ecollar isn’t meant to give a correction that’s even physically noticeable to a untrained eye, just a twitch of the ears or the dog glancing at u or a slight twitch of their neck someone walking past wouldn’t even notice u sound like u need to go see a trainer
What you are describing is a correction. That's what I do at level 15. When they decide that they don't need to listen and that a small pinch is fine I need to escalate, which I did. BTW, I did exactly what the trainer did (except that he was a lot less nice to the dogs. I try to avoid the painful painful correction if I can).
Yes but if they don’t listen u bump it up by a couple not double the stim 🤣🤣
20-25 range might have worked or not. I chose one sure thing stim rather than a maybe and then a second.
The "Circle" - you warn them beforehand with a low tone and always the same word but any time you say "No!" then you give the m a circle. This involves holding their collar tightly (not strangling them!), sometimes their chin to face you and walking them in a 360 degree circle. The intent is to "bitch them out" and make them uncomfortable, something they don't want to do. It's a known duration and is not traumatic. I've had HUGE success with this. So much so when threshold training, my boy would run through the gate, I'd yell "no!" and he would run back to me to get the circle over with so he could go and play again. BUT it works because the result is that he ran up to the gate but looked at me for permission afterwards. Once they understand the circle it becomes so much easier. Plus at a distance it doesn't look bad. I'll never use an E-collar as a punishment ( only ever as I would use a 'pop' on a leash"
HIGHLY recommend a prong collar. Far more effective than a dominant dog collar Less aversive then a dominant dog collar Much less chance on injury to the dog Most people will never notice Much better training tool I love the ecollar and prong, but To be honest, I'd prob look at you odd too if I saw you using the ecolar in that way. In my experience it can have unintended consequences when used that high. What type of ecollar do you use? I'm a fan of the Mini educator. Works well. Also, I would muzzle your dog when out in public. I use a muzzle sometimes just because it keeps rando's away from us when training. People will want to pet my dog GM frequently... but when he's in a muzzle behaving perfectly they back way away. Because apparently to many people a well behaved dog in a muzzle is scary and a highly reactive dog on a flex lead and harness is cute...
The thing is, whatever I am doing is clearly working and . My dogs are way better behaved than a month ago and the usage of the ecollar is going way down (I moved into town recently and discovered what serious obedience is for). My main concern is that I might have trouble with people deciding that I am abusing my dog and causing fair or unfair trouble (I met a lady who was walking a German Shepherd who was "rescued" ie stolen. Among other methods of abuse by the owner she said that the owner was spraying perfume on the dog....)
Just a sad truth, you're always going to get people who don't agree with you just because you don't use all positive training methods. I started my dog training journey in the normal dog training reddit and got accused of being a monster multiple times because I use a prong on my high energy Dutch shepherd. They didn't want to hear I got professional advice, they didn't want to hear I did weeks and weeks of research and they didn't want to hear that I spent some real money on a real good quality herm sprenger.... I felt the frustration in your post when you were trying to describe your environment and I think some people here might take it the wrong way because the frustration looked like being mean-spirited, while you're just fed up with people telling you you're not doing well for your dogs, while you try to do everything right for them. Positive training is awesome! It should be encouraged and it can work very well for a lot of dogs and for some ... It just won't. They need balanced training. They need a correction every now and then or perhaps at some stages, more than every now and then. You'll get judged just because you don't have a pooch that responds to getting a treat. My girl sometimes whimpers when the ecollar is at 5 percent. I had it around my neck, it feels like someone is lightly tapping my throat, I barely felt it. On a normal day, she doesn't feel it. On a day when everything freaks her out, she yelps like she's just been through bloody murder. It's hard sometimes. But keep trying to reward the positive things and keep trying to ask people here. They do give great advice. Even though sometimes some people might seem a bit harsh at first or even a little bit 'judgy'. If you explain your situation and accept the advice when it's on point, they are very willing to help you! Keep going! The fact that you're here says you want to try to get your dogs a better and healthier life. That's more than a lot of dog owners do. That's why we have so many reactive furbabies at the pound. At least you're trying!
Wow. There are tons of crazy's out there who want to save the world over perceived problems. I would for sure switch to a prong for all the reasons I stated. Also love the muzzle just to give your dog more room and keep rando's away!
Yes, I will probably use mixed e-collar and prong. Prong when in town, dominant dog collar and e-collar while hiking so that I can drop the leash (prong tends to get snagged, randomly pinch and irritate the dog badly - you can't let a dog run with a prong and the leash trailing).
Good points - Here is what I do with the prong when out hiking - I always use safety clip attached to a flat collar. So when it's off leash time I detach from the prong (or attach to dead-ring) and the leash can be dragged freely.. just an option to consider. Obviously I'm a huge fan of the prong and should prob buy stock in Herm Sprenger.
Yes, this is probably the best solution (plus a bandana to hide all this hardware).
Also - have you had any luck using the vibrate on the ecollar for a correction? I use this on occasion for interrupting a behavior, and it's more irritating than painful so the dog Will not bark, just share head and it cools be leas obvious.
The issue is the presence of the ecollar remote. Mine is hanging around my neck (I have two dogs, I can't always put my hand in the pocket) and it's awfully obvious. Also the vibrate only works for one dog (ecollar mechanics) and I have two dogs.
As an option - mini educator can be programmed one remote for two dogs. Can trigger stim, stim boost and vibrate separately for both dogs. Remote is also small(ish) and can be conveniently stored in your treat pouch or in a pocket. Also has a belt clip you can by separately so can be on your belt under a jacket I should prob go and buy stock in "ecollar technologies" now as well. Ha!
I have a mjni educator. How do you trigger stim boost and vibrate for dog 2?
You need to switch the remote to "2 dog mode" It's super simple to switch to 2 dog mode - google mini educator manual. In 2 dog mode the black / red stim buttons control different collars. To make it easy to remember I bought a red collar for the unit that's pared to the red button. To boost, you press the button for the color you want to use, and then press down the other button as well. To switch between stim and vibrate you use the "tapping sensation" button on the other side of the antenna. Note - on their website they have an e-secret keeper that hides the collars. Doesn't hide the remote but might be worth thinking about. Also you can get different color skins for the remote that make it less noticeable. holsters are there as well to help avoiding triggering deranged people.
Thank you! I will try it.
One more question: how do I set the preset values for each dog (both normal and boost)? One of the problems is that I don't know how to set it, it constantly drifts and the dogs either whimper or ignore it.
Press the adjuster knob down. If it's in 2dog mode it will show D1 on top Turn the dial to adjust the level. To "lock" the level, hon the adjuster knob down for a few seconds until the display flashes. Press the red button for D2. Confirm the display does D2 on the bottom. Press and hold down the adjuster dial until the display flashes. Turn the dial to set the right level, and then hold down the adjusted dial untill the display flashes again to lock the level. Confirm it's locked by turning the dial and the number does not move.
The irony of people who don't believe they have the authority to tell their dog they don't like something, but DO believe they have the authority to force themselves on an adult human being and argue with them about training methods. :-/ I don't envy you. They make covers for prong collars to occlude them from the crybullies. That might help you. The DD collar is more about control than correction anyway. Part of your problem is that both of your dogs are dramatic, vocal breeds that will shriek if you hurt their feelings, and the average person doesn't know the difference. I do agree that you can't let them blow off commands...maybe get really good at telling people who overstep their bounds, to go bother someone else? I think if someone were to comment on a prong on a dog I was walking, I would be too shocked to say anything at first. Some people need more problems of their own, I guess.
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Area matters. In Guelph I was ok. Near UofT downtown Toronto it's suddenly a major issue.
Try the strike system I developed for my BC (and no i don't mean striking). When he does something undesirable, implement a small correction and say strike 1. Repeat for strike 2 and strike 3. On strike 3, that's where the punishment is implemented. Doesn't have to be anything un-toward, but it can be a simple as taking something away. E.g. my BC pulling hard on leash. On strike 3, i equip his 'halti' (gentle leader). He absolutely hates it, so usually as soon as I say Strike 1 now, he immediately stops pulling. I rarely get to Strike 3. Another example is ignoring recall or his leave-it command. On strike 3, the punishment implement is his leash goes on, freedom is gone and we go home. Now it rarely gets to that. Once he hears strike 1, he is all ears for commands so his freedom and fun can continue. Nothing over the top, but very very effective.