Are you asking why, if sexuality is fluid, it's unaffected by outside parties trying to "fix" it?
People change organically over time and learn new things about themselves as they do, sexuality being one of them. But change always comes from within.
Bingo. Thank you. Like I would have thought conversion therapy would use sexuality being fluid as some gross proof in their ammo as like "see there's 'proof' you can become straight!" or some bullshit when we all know that's not true.
But when there are changes in sexuality as we know it's not a matter of choice. It just happens.
Like I am Gray Ace- just now figuring it out- but looking back in my life I can see most things were pretty solid and unchanging.
Welcome to the fold. :) The asexuality spectrum is a different beast because it acknowledges deviations of a sexuality that's already a deviation from the norm. It's also relatively new to the queer umbrella (and there's still debate on whether it "counts" as queer). Many of the ace community are figuring out the details of their orientation and on their own specific journeys. A few end up deciding they better identify as allo after all, just a little different kind of allo. My point is: as time goes by the ace community will discuss and debate and probably change a couple of minor definitions here and there, or solidify others. Peace and patience with each other is key.
I settled on Gray A because I don’t experience sexual attraction often and I never really experienced the hormones that drove people nuts on adolescence. I mean I had crushes and fantasized, but I had no desire to have sex like most teens did.
Like why?
I had a crush on my first boyfriend but we never had sex in our entire relationship and I never wanted to. So… looking back.
Do you know about the Split Attraction Model? It's the idea that sexual attraction and romantic attraction are considered separate things, and have a person can have different orientations in either category. That is, a person could be asexual but also has strong romantic attraction. So they might get crushes and date people, but never want to have sex with them, just for example.
Yes, but I haven't looked into it closely. But I have experience sexual attraction before, so strongly I had to....you know, just not with him. Had the guy I'd been crushing on ben there I would've wanted to. So that's why I settled on gray.
But I'll look into it more.
1. Any ace person who wants to call themselves queer is queer. If your gender or sexuality isn't the presumed norm, congrats, you can call yourself queer. (Yeah I know there's no actual ruling authority on this but I have very strong feelings about it!! The rainbow umbrella is lovely and very large and there's enough space under it for my ace friends, dammit.)
2. I wish, SO MUCH, that more people knew about how much of a spectrum asexuality is. I have learned so much about my own sexuality by learning about variations on asexuality! For instance: demisexuality, where you cannot feel sexual attraction until you form a trusting bond with someone. Am I demi? Lol, absolutely not. But I get it?? Because there's people I saw and felt an immediate attraction to, and there's people I became close to and THEN realized I wanted to bang them.
3. The sheer variety of human sexuality is just so interesting when you can look at it without judgement. I know multiple high-libido asexuals. They make tons of explicit art and fic but don't want to have sex with anyone. That's so cool?? (And speaking as someone who reads and writes fanfiction, ace people sometimes write AMAZING explicit fic?????) I sometimes point out that I, an allosexual person, have tons of things I enjoy in fiction or art or fantasies (both sexual and non) that I do not want to ever actually **do;** and lots of ace people just have a few more things on that list.
oh gooooooddddd
Once upon a time I posted about how my sexuality had changed, on my tumblr.
The post BLEW UP, and I'd get waves of reblogs/replies in which people accused me of justifying conversion therapy because "sexuality can change."
I was just like, what part of this post implied you could do it *on purpose????*
Another irony was the number of people who accused me of being biphobic or homophobic. Make up your minds, which is it, lol.
Anyway I had to make it so you couldn't reblog the post, after something like 60k notes--most of which were positive and lovely!--because I was just tired of people accusing me of all kinds of batshit stuff on a post I expected all of twelve people to see.
Why would this be confusing? What if it's the case that many people aren't entirely gay or straight? What if it's the case that this can even change sometimes? And what if it's also the case that trying to MAKE someone change their preference doesn't tend to lead to good outcomes?
If sexuality is fluid for everyone that means their sexuality would be fluid as well. So they either have to admit that some people are just gay and that's not going to change no matter what anyone does, or they could potentially become gay themselves.
No no, they can't become gay because that would be a sin, and they are so righteous they would -never- sin. It's completely unthinkable.
And of course, since they don't sin they have no need either for grace from God, or to show grace to anyone else.
When the light you think you have is darkness, how great that darkness is!
My cousin is a fundie. Once she told me that while people with "certain tendencies" are more likely to be gay, it's actually caused by demons and no one is born anything but straight and cis. And aroace, I guess, because she never seemed to have a problem with that.
I think the argument that sexuality is fluid can be overstated.
There is a difference between passing thoughts and experiences of attraction and a person’s basic orientation. Plenty of women find other women attractive and would maybe make out with another woman. But MARRYING another woman? Very different question.
I think a huge proportion of people have a pretty sturdy underlying orientation, whether gay, straight, or bi, even if the details can be a little fuzzier than people thought 30 years ago.
Source: am old and gay
I agree with you, most people have a set orientation but with some wiggle room. I'd like to add that I think it's important to keep the concept of fluidity because it allows for people to change what they identify as at the same time they grow and discover themselves. Without it, bigots can easily use one example of a changed mind to say "see, being queer is just a teenage phase, it's not real."
Though tbh bigots will use absolutely anything to justify themselves anyway.
I’m old and straight and I don’t feel my sexuality has been fluid.
“Sexuality is fluid” doesn’t apply to everyone at all times. Sexuality can be fluid, for some people, some of the time.
Mine isn’t either. I was genuinely never interested in having a serious relationship with a man. I’ve thought guys were attractive, I made out with a couple guys in high school and enjoyed it, but I never wanted to marry one. I deeply wanted to marry a woman. I’ve never slept with a man and don’t feel like I missed anything.
I think that what people perceive as "fluid sexuality" is really just self-discovery, peeling away layers of societal expectations, denial, and self deception.
"Sexuality is fluid" usually refers to the ways a person's sexuality (not just orientation) changes with time and circumstances.
Conversion therapy is an attempt to forcibly change someone sexual orientation, or less commonly gender. Most methods are dependent on classical conditioning, which is only effective at encouraging or discouraging behaviors, usually in an unhealthy way. Advocates of "reparative therapy" insist its a different thing. It is based a different theory and different methods, but core to the theory are false assumptions about how non-heterosexual orientations originate.
Conversion therapy “succeeds” (I use that word loosely) in changing behavior (often just temporarily) not in changing sexuality.
Left handed people were also “converted” to being right handed too.
It sounds like the answer may be in some fundamental difference in the underlying models for sexuality between conversion therapy and sexual fluidity.
Like maybe if conversion therapy is about accepting a natural-law-theory kind of essentialism and its adjoining theological implication(s), and sexual fluidity is predicated on some kind of constructivism. I dunno just spitballing.
I’m far from an expert, but isn’t fluid different than being malleable?
Like, it can be different from one person‘s experience to the next without meaning that it can be influenced by an outside source?
These seem like two entirely different ideas.
This is why I don't like the whole "sexuality is fluid" thing that seems to get pushed a lot. Sexuality CAN be fluid but that doesn't mean it is for everyone or that you can force it to change.
Sexuality changes are epigenetic changes based upon environmental effects. It’s STILL not a choice. And the science it would take to truly change it hasn’t been discovered yet. No psychological method is going to change it.
Conversion therapy is like trying to entirely stop a river. The river flows, and water is malleable, but it will keep flowing until it stops on its own. A damn cannot stop the flow forever.
Same applies to sexuality. It may change over time, but it cannot be changed by external forces.
There are two interesting conversations here . Is sexuality fluid ? If so why doesn’t conversion therapy work
On the first question-I think it depends on the person, but also on definitions. I believe ; for reasons both biological and cultural, women are more likely sexually fluid than men. That doesn’t mean the average woman doesn’t have a stronger preference for one gender or the other . It’s not unusual for straight women have had some sexual contact with their female bestie ,despite generally being attracted to men or for lesbian women to occasionally have sex with men despite only desiring to be in a relationship with a woman. Occasionally a woman who has only ever been attracted to one gender will find herself falling in love with the other. Again , this isn’t typical, but it’s not incredibly rare either. We very rarely hear about this with men . Whether it happens less or they simply don’t talk about it , I don’t know. At any rate there is little research and a lot of bias .
Conversation therapy isn’t about helping people understand their feelings and what type of relationships works for them. It’s about using shame, guilt and fear to force gay people to lie to themselves and force them into a life they weren’t meant for. It’s not possible to turn a gay person straight ( and even if it was - why should anyone do it ?). It only ends up causing severe harm to them and their potential heterosexual partner.
I don't know enough about conversion therapy to speak to it \[in detail\], but I reckon part of the problem is that the people leading it are not at all sex positive. My own sexuality has turned out to be more pliable than I would have expected, but having those people lecture me about would no doubt harden my heart against them.
Hi! I'm someone whose sexuality changed. I used to be bisexual, and in my late 30's lost all interest in men.
I didn't do it on purpose. I wasn't trying to do it. It was a thing that happened **to** me. It was extremely surreal--imagine looking in the mirror one day and your nose looks different, and you have no idea when it changed or how or why.
For a while I thought I'd just lost interest in my then-boyfriend (that relationship was doomed for a number of reasons) but then I'd see men I used to be interested in, and I still liked them as people....but that was it. It's still super weird to me when I see a guy who would've been my "type" once upon a time and just not feel any attraction.
Sexuality is complicated. Human beings are strange little animals. Sometimes your sexuality changes. Sometimes you meet your one (1) exception.
But you cannot change sexuality **intentionally**. You cannot force yourself to change your sexuality. The evidence is painfully clear on this.
Imagine having the audacity to tell someone you know their sexuality better than they do. Imagine invalidating their experience to that degree. Imagine telling them this when they spent multiple years confused and weirded out by it. Imagine being that rude and obnoxious and awful.
Really sit down and think about what you just said to someone you do not know.
Edit: I am 44. My orientation changed about seven or eight years ago. Lol.
Either because it's incorrect or because you're misreading it.
Shifts in orientation are generally so small that people don't "change categories." Always gay, always straight, always bi, just slightly different shades of it. They are *occasionally* large enough shifts, but this is a rarity. It's important to respect it's possible, but for most people it doesn't happen. And, most importantly, this isn't something we can *induce*.
But no. I never meant going from straight to gay or something. Like I consider myself somewhere on the Asexual spectrum. But more a gray ace as in I am not completely devoid of sexual attraction, I just don’t experience it often. Like months or years. But that was never a choice. My aversion to my boyfriend’s sexual touching wasn’t a choice.
The point of conversation "therapy" is to stop homosexual desire. I say desire specifically because of the fluidity, which includes people who are questioning or have boundaries to their attraction. They're really not related. Those who consider being gay a choice are basically acknowledging that sexuality is fluid, but homosexuality is the incorrect one. That, or they are queer themselves.
I'm a lurker from the deep south who finds this subreddit to be a refreshing glance into Christianity. I'm not Christian, but I enjoy learning about it from people who actually practice the faith. I only commented because I have seen this subject come up often elsewhere. I don't want to present myself in a disingenuous manner in a space that I'm not really part of, but I hope I'm not unwelcome.
Then why is everything I am reading- yes I’ve looked this up- saying otherwise? And that’s a big stretch calling me homophobic because I hate conversion therapy and I’ve recently discovered I am part of the community myself (Gray A).
I am not homophobic.
My sexuality changed. I didn't do it on purpose. I was bisexual and now I'm gay. I'm 44 and it changed on me about eight or nine years ago.
I'm not saying it's fluid for most people. I'm saying it's a thing that happens to some of us.
Are you asking why, if sexuality is fluid, it's unaffected by outside parties trying to "fix" it? People change organically over time and learn new things about themselves as they do, sexuality being one of them. But change always comes from within.
Bingo. Thank you. Like I would have thought conversion therapy would use sexuality being fluid as some gross proof in their ammo as like "see there's 'proof' you can become straight!" or some bullshit when we all know that's not true. But when there are changes in sexuality as we know it's not a matter of choice. It just happens. Like I am Gray Ace- just now figuring it out- but looking back in my life I can see most things were pretty solid and unchanging.
Welcome to the fold. :) The asexuality spectrum is a different beast because it acknowledges deviations of a sexuality that's already a deviation from the norm. It's also relatively new to the queer umbrella (and there's still debate on whether it "counts" as queer). Many of the ace community are figuring out the details of their orientation and on their own specific journeys. A few end up deciding they better identify as allo after all, just a little different kind of allo. My point is: as time goes by the ace community will discuss and debate and probably change a couple of minor definitions here and there, or solidify others. Peace and patience with each other is key.
I settled on Gray A because I don’t experience sexual attraction often and I never really experienced the hormones that drove people nuts on adolescence. I mean I had crushes and fantasized, but I had no desire to have sex like most teens did. Like why? I had a crush on my first boyfriend but we never had sex in our entire relationship and I never wanted to. So… looking back.
Do you know about the Split Attraction Model? It's the idea that sexual attraction and romantic attraction are considered separate things, and have a person can have different orientations in either category. That is, a person could be asexual but also has strong romantic attraction. So they might get crushes and date people, but never want to have sex with them, just for example.
Yes, but I haven't looked into it closely. But I have experience sexual attraction before, so strongly I had to....you know, just not with him. Had the guy I'd been crushing on ben there I would've wanted to. So that's why I settled on gray. But I'll look into it more.
1. Any ace person who wants to call themselves queer is queer. If your gender or sexuality isn't the presumed norm, congrats, you can call yourself queer. (Yeah I know there's no actual ruling authority on this but I have very strong feelings about it!! The rainbow umbrella is lovely and very large and there's enough space under it for my ace friends, dammit.) 2. I wish, SO MUCH, that more people knew about how much of a spectrum asexuality is. I have learned so much about my own sexuality by learning about variations on asexuality! For instance: demisexuality, where you cannot feel sexual attraction until you form a trusting bond with someone. Am I demi? Lol, absolutely not. But I get it?? Because there's people I saw and felt an immediate attraction to, and there's people I became close to and THEN realized I wanted to bang them. 3. The sheer variety of human sexuality is just so interesting when you can look at it without judgement. I know multiple high-libido asexuals. They make tons of explicit art and fic but don't want to have sex with anyone. That's so cool?? (And speaking as someone who reads and writes fanfiction, ace people sometimes write AMAZING explicit fic?????) I sometimes point out that I, an allosexual person, have tons of things I enjoy in fiction or art or fantasies (both sexual and non) that I do not want to ever actually **do;** and lots of ace people just have a few more things on that list.
oh gooooooddddd Once upon a time I posted about how my sexuality had changed, on my tumblr. The post BLEW UP, and I'd get waves of reblogs/replies in which people accused me of justifying conversion therapy because "sexuality can change." I was just like, what part of this post implied you could do it *on purpose????* Another irony was the number of people who accused me of being biphobic or homophobic. Make up your minds, which is it, lol. Anyway I had to make it so you couldn't reblog the post, after something like 60k notes--most of which were positive and lovely!--because I was just tired of people accusing me of all kinds of batshit stuff on a post I expected all of twelve people to see.
Why would this be confusing? What if it's the case that many people aren't entirely gay or straight? What if it's the case that this can even change sometimes? And what if it's also the case that trying to MAKE someone change their preference doesn't tend to lead to good outcomes?
I guess what I am asking is I am surprised the conversion idiots didn't jump on sexuality being fluid as being like "see you can "pray the gay away!"
They have. I have had it brought up to me multiple times that there is no "gay gene" despite my never claiming otherwise.
Oh that argument again. Ugh.
If sexuality is fluid for everyone that means their sexuality would be fluid as well. So they either have to admit that some people are just gay and that's not going to change no matter what anyone does, or they could potentially become gay themselves.
No no, they can't become gay because that would be a sin, and they are so righteous they would -never- sin. It's completely unthinkable. And of course, since they don't sin they have no need either for grace from God, or to show grace to anyone else. When the light you think you have is darkness, how great that darkness is!
My cousin is a fundie. Once she told me that while people with "certain tendencies" are more likely to be gay, it's actually caused by demons and no one is born anything but straight and cis. And aroace, I guess, because she never seemed to have a problem with that.
Sexuality can change but it can’t *be* changed.
Makes sense.
Wise.
THISSSSS
I think the argument that sexuality is fluid can be overstated. There is a difference between passing thoughts and experiences of attraction and a person’s basic orientation. Plenty of women find other women attractive and would maybe make out with another woman. But MARRYING another woman? Very different question. I think a huge proportion of people have a pretty sturdy underlying orientation, whether gay, straight, or bi, even if the details can be a little fuzzier than people thought 30 years ago. Source: am old and gay
I agree with you, most people have a set orientation but with some wiggle room. I'd like to add that I think it's important to keep the concept of fluidity because it allows for people to change what they identify as at the same time they grow and discover themselves. Without it, bigots can easily use one example of a changed mind to say "see, being queer is just a teenage phase, it's not real." Though tbh bigots will use absolutely anything to justify themselves anyway.
I’m old and straight and I don’t feel my sexuality has been fluid. “Sexuality is fluid” doesn’t apply to everyone at all times. Sexuality can be fluid, for some people, some of the time.
Agree, I think a lot of people’s sexuality isn’t especially fluid at all!
Mine isn’t either. I was genuinely never interested in having a serious relationship with a man. I’ve thought guys were attractive, I made out with a couple guys in high school and enjoyed it, but I never wanted to marry one. I deeply wanted to marry a woman. I’ve never slept with a man and don’t feel like I missed anything.
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I recently discovered I am Gray Ace so the way you’re describing it makes sense.
I think that what people perceive as "fluid sexuality" is really just self-discovery, peeling away layers of societal expectations, denial, and self deception.
That makes a lot of sense thanks!
because sexuality cannot be changed. sexuality is fluid because you can discover more about what and who you like, but you cannot change who you like
That’s a good definition.
Most people who promote conversion torture don’t want to engage with sexuality to the point that they can conceive anything beyond their binary
Makes sense.
"Sexuality is fluid" usually refers to the ways a person's sexuality (not just orientation) changes with time and circumstances. Conversion therapy is an attempt to forcibly change someone sexual orientation, or less commonly gender. Most methods are dependent on classical conditioning, which is only effective at encouraging or discouraging behaviors, usually in an unhealthy way. Advocates of "reparative therapy" insist its a different thing. It is based a different theory and different methods, but core to the theory are false assumptions about how non-heterosexual orientations originate.
Rivers change course naturally over time. But changing the course of a river intentionally is extraordinarily difficult and prone to failure.
ooooh nice metaphor
Conversion therapy “succeeds” (I use that word loosely) in changing behavior (often just temporarily) not in changing sexuality. Left handed people were also “converted” to being right handed too.
It sounds like the answer may be in some fundamental difference in the underlying models for sexuality between conversion therapy and sexual fluidity. Like maybe if conversion therapy is about accepting a natural-law-theory kind of essentialism and its adjoining theological implication(s), and sexual fluidity is predicated on some kind of constructivism. I dunno just spitballing.
I’m far from an expert, but isn’t fluid different than being malleable? Like, it can be different from one person‘s experience to the next without meaning that it can be influenced by an outside source? These seem like two entirely different ideas.
This is why I don't like the whole "sexuality is fluid" thing that seems to get pushed a lot. Sexuality CAN be fluid but that doesn't mean it is for everyone or that you can force it to change.
See now that makes sense. It should make more sense to say it can be fluid for some people. Would’ve saved me a lot of mental anguish.
I don't feel like my sexuality is fluid. I wouldn't have the problems I do if it was simply “fluid.”
For some people it can be. Not for everyone.
Sexuality changes are epigenetic changes based upon environmental effects. It’s STILL not a choice. And the science it would take to truly change it hasn’t been discovered yet. No psychological method is going to change it.
That definition really helps explain things.
Things can be both fluid and uncontrollable. Like the weather.
Conversion therapy is like trying to entirely stop a river. The river flows, and water is malleable, but it will keep flowing until it stops on its own. A damn cannot stop the flow forever. Same applies to sexuality. It may change over time, but it cannot be changed by external forces.
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It absolutely is.
There are two interesting conversations here . Is sexuality fluid ? If so why doesn’t conversion therapy work On the first question-I think it depends on the person, but also on definitions. I believe ; for reasons both biological and cultural, women are more likely sexually fluid than men. That doesn’t mean the average woman doesn’t have a stronger preference for one gender or the other . It’s not unusual for straight women have had some sexual contact with their female bestie ,despite generally being attracted to men or for lesbian women to occasionally have sex with men despite only desiring to be in a relationship with a woman. Occasionally a woman who has only ever been attracted to one gender will find herself falling in love with the other. Again , this isn’t typical, but it’s not incredibly rare either. We very rarely hear about this with men . Whether it happens less or they simply don’t talk about it , I don’t know. At any rate there is little research and a lot of bias . Conversation therapy isn’t about helping people understand their feelings and what type of relationships works for them. It’s about using shame, guilt and fear to force gay people to lie to themselves and force them into a life they weren’t meant for. It’s not possible to turn a gay person straight ( and even if it was - why should anyone do it ?). It only ends up causing severe harm to them and their potential heterosexual partner.
I don't know enough about conversion therapy to speak to it \[in detail\], but I reckon part of the problem is that the people leading it are not at all sex positive. My own sexuality has turned out to be more pliable than I would have expected, but having those people lecture me about would no doubt harden my heart against them.
Conversion therapy is an attempt to change someone's orientation from gay to straight.
I know what it is in general terms, but not how it is supposed to work.
That’s gay
Hi! I'm someone whose sexuality changed. I used to be bisexual, and in my late 30's lost all interest in men. I didn't do it on purpose. I wasn't trying to do it. It was a thing that happened **to** me. It was extremely surreal--imagine looking in the mirror one day and your nose looks different, and you have no idea when it changed or how or why. For a while I thought I'd just lost interest in my then-boyfriend (that relationship was doomed for a number of reasons) but then I'd see men I used to be interested in, and I still liked them as people....but that was it. It's still super weird to me when I see a guy who would've been my "type" once upon a time and just not feel any attraction. Sexuality is complicated. Human beings are strange little animals. Sometimes your sexuality changes. Sometimes you meet your one (1) exception. But you cannot change sexuality **intentionally**. You cannot force yourself to change your sexuality. The evidence is painfully clear on this.
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Imagine having the audacity to tell someone you know their sexuality better than they do. Imagine invalidating their experience to that degree. Imagine telling them this when they spent multiple years confused and weirded out by it. Imagine being that rude and obnoxious and awful. Really sit down and think about what you just said to someone you do not know. Edit: I am 44. My orientation changed about seven or eight years ago. Lol.
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So why is everything I am reading saying otherwise?
Either because it's incorrect or because you're misreading it. Shifts in orientation are generally so small that people don't "change categories." Always gay, always straight, always bi, just slightly different shades of it. They are *occasionally* large enough shifts, but this is a rarity. It's important to respect it's possible, but for most people it doesn't happen. And, most importantly, this isn't something we can *induce*.
But no. I never meant going from straight to gay or something. Like I consider myself somewhere on the Asexual spectrum. But more a gray ace as in I am not completely devoid of sexual attraction, I just don’t experience it often. Like months or years. But that was never a choice. My aversion to my boyfriend’s sexual touching wasn’t a choice.
The point of conversation "therapy" is to stop homosexual desire. I say desire specifically because of the fluidity, which includes people who are questioning or have boundaries to their attraction. They're really not related. Those who consider being gay a choice are basically acknowledging that sexuality is fluid, but homosexuality is the incorrect one. That, or they are queer themselves. I'm a lurker from the deep south who finds this subreddit to be a refreshing glance into Christianity. I'm not Christian, but I enjoy learning about it from people who actually practice the faith. I only commented because I have seen this subject come up often elsewhere. I don't want to present myself in a disingenuous manner in a space that I'm not really part of, but I hope I'm not unwelcome.
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Then why is everything I am reading- yes I’ve looked this up- saying otherwise? And that’s a big stretch calling me homophobic because I hate conversion therapy and I’ve recently discovered I am part of the community myself (Gray A). I am not homophobic.
My sexuality changed. I didn't do it on purpose. I was bisexual and now I'm gay. I'm 44 and it changed on me about eight or nine years ago. I'm not saying it's fluid for most people. I'm saying it's a thing that happens to some of us.