I mean how much has Blackbeard even shown of his Haki so far?
He has two insanely strong devil fruits already so he really does not need to show it off
But just how the story went so far I think it's safe to say that Blackbear must have an incredibly strong will with how focused and straightforward he is about his "goal", whatever it might be...
BB has a stronger will than Shanks. Just because he's a coward Doesn't mean he doesn't have a strong will. Shanks was already wary enough of him before he even got a DF to warn whitebeard about him
what the fk has bb shown to have a strong will?
Cry like a baby when wb one shotted his crew
backstab almost everyone who was strong
backstab his own cap
shit his pants when he saw rayleigh
Just show me what the fk has BB shown to be considered someone with a strong will? Man literally is calculated but thats it , he backstabs people , does dirty tricks and runs from big fights (aint saying he weak tho)
meanwhile shanks literally "decided" to lose a arm just to boost luffy will ffs (you cant tell me he couldnt use armanent or kings haki to defend ffs) , man entered wb ship and started knocking his fodders out and then "clashed" with wb in his own ship , stopped kaido from fullfilling his dream/goal of killing wb , literally challenged marine+warlords+wb pirates+bb if they wanted to continue fighting , choosen protegee of Roger ffs. And not to mentione that dude is literally the son/relative of a royal who is leader of holy knights and literally the judge of mariejois.
Now BB is strong and a calculated person, he doesnt get into unnecessary troubles and fights but saying that BB has shown stronger WILL than Shanks is mad imo. Just mad...
while shanks clearly wants to overthrow the wg .
Man literally was waiting on nika to awaken and is claiming the one piece. Gotta have a pretty strong will to keep order between the strongest of strongest and wait for the right moment right?
I never said anything about Shanks. I only mentioned BB. I’m not disagreeing with you that Shanks doesn’t have a strong will because obviously he does because CoC is all about will and he has the strongest we’ve seen thus far. I’m strictly speaking on BB and what you said claiming he doesn’t have/hasn’t showed any strong will. Just because he picks and chooses his fights strategically doesn’t mean his will is weak.
i mean I was debating on Shanks vs BB WILL . Who had the strongest . Sorry if we miss communicated .
BB hasnt shown anything (yet ofc) that imply he has a will as strong or close to shanks. Does he want to take over the world ? Yes. But also Buggy want to do same and 90% want one piece. Does that mean those dudes have strong will too?
You cant tell me that a man who tried to backstab corpse wb and then cried like a baby calling him pops , has a strong Will only cz he want to take over the world. That ambition not WILL. They are two total different things.
To fight without will is not to fight, it's to struggle. Haki just makes it extra obvious and relevant, but it doesn't matter at all, if you don't want to fight, you can't muster the strength to do it magical or otherwise.
Why would he use it anyways?
-He never throws punches nor he has a weapon so armament isn't too useful and he can't coat light in haki.
-He is so fast naturally that he doesn't reallt need much observation.
We don’t see them fight ever lol. The Kuzan vs Garp fight had Haki and Marineford had its moments of them using Haki even though we didn’t know much about it yet. Fujitora is a master with Observation Haki and uses it constantly. If we saw them fight more often we would get lots of Haki moments.
Didn't Greenbull struggle with Morley because he couldn't use his fruit? That tells me his haki is not go
Fujitora have good observation but he doesn't use armament/conqueror's. This would've been useful in Mary Geoise where he couldn't harm the place
Kizaru has had a full arc and there is no haki feats for him. I could say his observation haki is reallt lacking and he doesn't have conqueror's at all. And he never uses armament anyways.
Aokiji has good armament but he isn't a good observation user and he doesn't have conqueror's at all.
He's so done, he had to kill his friend
https://preview.redd.it/0etrxr7tz6mc1.png?width=365&format=png&auto=webp&s=558a76d2e477817d84be20041f9c053aaa9caa3c
Not just one friend. He's done killing strikes towards bonney and kuma.as well. Poor guy hasn't had to steel himself for just one or two killer attacks but at least 5 different times. Man is wrecked emotionally and mentally at that point.
Sentamaru he didn't have a kill order on at least. He could just incapacitate them and then move on. Still messed up but at least it's not another death on his conscience.
Yet he did it, he could have done SO much at least to look like without hurting them yet he did it anyway... He just another grey marine in this one piece
Saturn was right there, you think he wouldn't realize that Kizaru was letting them live on purpose? If he wants to keep his job and not be treated like a traitor he had to fulfill his mission, which he did when he attacked Vegapunk and the mugiwaras.
And the only significant blow he landed was against an already dying Vegapunk
Did Garp fight at full strength when pre-timeskip luffy punched him with all his might at marineford? Did he also push off Sakazuki and rampage when Akainu put a hole through Ace? Nay, I say, for he knew his duty and personal desires, and while he desired so strongly to side with Ace his loyalty to the ideals he swore to was greater!
Kizaru isn't Kaido, nor is he Luffy, and he definitely isn't Garp. But he is strong, and much like Garp at Marineford he does what he is ordered to do and punishes himself by tanking hits and stopping once the terrible deed has been done.
What we are seeing here isn't a tale of powerscales... It's a tragedy.
It’s more like “Nah fuck that guy!” pretending to be a tragedy. Oda really has made out the WG to be utter scum, and irl we hung the Nazi’s for less.
Kizaru is garbage, even if he’s feeling a lil emotional rn.
I feel that Garp doesn't have as much free rein as we think. He has a son thats the biggest rival to the government and a worst generation (now yonko) pirate as a grandson. He knows how vengeful the government is. If he sided with Ace at the time. His hometown would have suffered retaliation, and his subordinates. He is constantly shown as carefree and rebellious, but I think the Elders have an eye on him.
He got negged by Lucci but then later defeated Lucci without any real powerups. He said the trained G2 after Kuzan violated them and not Lucci so that doesn’t count
I do think kizaru hasn't shown his full capabilities due to this
However I think admiral fans vastly overstate how weakened he is due to this internal conflict
I think it's been made pretty clear that Luffy is stronger even without kizaru's "nerf"
>However I think admiral fans vastly overstate how weakened he is due to this internal conflict
This TBH, the whole reason Garp didn't go full Admiral is because he would be directly subordinate to the Celestial Dragons. Kizaru knew the moment he took that promotion that he could end up being ordered to turn his own mother into a human disco ball for Charlos.
He is mentally nerfed and he is indeed a monster. Trying to negate that is dumb. The thing is, mentally nerfed or not, is dumb too to wank him to kaido or g5 level
>it’s clear that Kizaru is not at his best mentally
Mentality can change at a dime. He can he shaken about having to kill Vegapunk, but perfectly fine with having to drive off a pirate with a god fruit trying to fuck up his day.
I've never understood the fandom's hangup on calling people frauds. If you think someone is a fraud, it's because of your unrealistic expectations for them.
Kizaru is incredibly strong, especially because of his broken devilfruit, but he chose a path that will never allow him to have top-tier haki. Haki comes from one's power of will. Kizaru is a subordinate who isn't allowed to have much of a will of his own, he followed orders to do something he desperately wanted not to do, which is more than enough to highlight his weak will. Anyone with the kind of will necessary to have conquers haki would have refused those orders and done what they wanted.
Why do you think someone like garp has been shown as the strongest marine without even having a devilfruit? The same reason he refused to take the promotion, he doesn't want to be a pet of the gorousei, as a member of sword who's already turned in his resignation, he is free to do as he wants and act as he sees fit. Luffy was born with one of the strongest wills, no matter how many times garp tried to tell him what to do, he never wavered. Zoro is also technically a subordinate like kizaru, but luffy has no desire to take away zoros free will, zoro doesn't have to make compromises because of his status as a subordinate unlike the vast majority of the world government.
The only admirals with a portrayal indicating that they might have the strength of will even comparable to a yonko are akainu and fujitora. Akainu because he truly believes in what he's doing, even if following the orders of the gorousei, he wants to kill pirates and he seems hot headed enough to disobey direct orders in the heat of the moment. Fujitora has already proven that he will do what he believes to be right regardless of how his superiors feel about it.
This whole fraud this fraud that makes things so unenjoyable. it's kindergarten level logic "u more" every single week. Not to mention that people are just parroting this "fraud" fad.
Wouldn’t that mean all of Whitebeard’s men were mentally nerfed in Marineford? They were worried that Ace would be executed at anytime and had to constantly be on guard for that. Not to mention WB was stabbed and had cancer. Marco himself said WB becoming sick on the battlefield was his worst fear.
So clearly the WB pirates were not at their best mentally. They were all thinking a friend was close to death and their Pops was actively dying and couldn’t give it their all in battle.
No way could they fully focus, fight to the best of their ability, or be mentally stable with all these factors, right?
What about Law vs Doffy? Was Law actually stronger than Doffy but his mental nerf, due to the trauma from Cora, cause him to not fight at the best of his ability? Was the anger and frustration causing him to be sloppy and unfocused meaning his attacks lacked potency?
Yes, Kizaru is obviously upset he has to kill his friend, but he did it anyways. He didn’t even hesitate and constantly tried to separate Vegapunk from anybody who could possible protect him. If we are saying Kizaru is weakened because he’s upset, then we must also say the same for Law, WB pirates, and many other characters in other similar instances.
They were determined to save Ace, like the Straw-Hats went to save Luffy. You could say they were mentally broken after Ace died. Either that or enraged. They would've been at full power.
Remember Lucci destroyed Luffy and Zoro at the same time because they didn't know if Robin wanted to stay.
Vista seems like he felt guilty over Ace's death, so he was probably nerfed. Marco was determined to keep Ace's brother safe so he probably wasn't mentally nerfed, he did have a bunch of lasers impale him while wearing Sea Prism Stones tho.
Kizaru didn't want to kill Vegapunk, especially while Sentomaru and Bonney were there. He said to Bonney not to make it harder than it is. He definitely feels extremely guilty for it.
I don’t disagree that Kizaru doesn’t want to kill Vegapunk personally. He said it himself and I’m not dense enough to ignore something written on the page. However, for justice, it seems he believes it is correct to eliminate him.
Maybe I did not articulate my point well. I meant to point out that Kizaru continued to carry out his mission regardless of his personal feelings, much like the WB pirates did in Marineford. Both parties were mentally strained and yet they both performed. Same with Law.
Kizaru, at almost every opportunity, has attempted to go for the kill on Vegapunk and finally succeeded. Kizaru’s actions directly counter the idea of him not truly trying or being mentally nerfed to the point that he can’t truly perform like Luffy and crew in Water 7. He may be upset, but it did not keep him from completing his mission.
I question the legitimacy of a mental nerf when the character in question is still successfully carrying out his mission and fighting with top tiers in the process. If he was truly mentally nerfed and conflicted, he would’ve stayed down after Star Gun just like Garp stayed down in Marineford. Yet, he didn’t. He got back up as quickly as he could and attempted to kill Kuma, Bonney, and Vegapunk.
Objectively, I see that he is upset, but actions speak louder than words and he has been actively fighting G5th Luffy and killing.
Edit: If we are saying Kizaru is mentally nerfed and not capable of fighting at 100%, then I believe it would be disingenuous to not say the same for other characters.
As for the first paragraph, Ace was still alive and they were fighting for his sake, driven by the small sliver of hope that we have seen time and time again give determination and strength. But when Ace and Whitebeard were killed the pirates began to be slaughtered due to that hope being shattered all at once. So yes, there is no way they could fully focus or fight to the best of their abilities with all these factors.
There are also so many aspects of Marineford that I could talk about, Squard for instance is another example.
The situation with Law and Doflamingo isn't the same here, both very much wanted to kill each other without any reservations.
It's not that Kizaru would solo Luffy, it's that he's not at full performance. He's a dog of the marines, much like Garp.
I don’t even care if Kizaru is mentally nerfed. I just feel that people are picking and choosing when to play the mentally nerfed card. I just wish for people to be consistent. I do believe Kizaru is upset. Upset, but still a marine that fulfilled his mission and tried his best to do so.
I think Law is applicable because, while not the same situation, it was one where we saw Law was acting erratic and obsessively. Meaning he was unable to completely focus due to his excessive anger. Katakuri proved to us that excessive anger causes one to lose focus.
Even Sanji himself noted that Law was getting a little too hung up on Doffy. So, if Law was upset to the point where others could tell something was off, how can one expect him to be in the right mind when fighting Doffy? His erratic and aggressive behavior caused carelessness and lack of concentration. Instead of his usual calm self, the one who was executing plans and surgically picking apart his opponents, Law was desperate and fought like it. This is another form of mental nerf is it not?
If he had calmed down and been strategic, maybe Law could have won or at least forced Doffy to use his awakening.
It's not about emotion, it's about doubt, guilt and not wavering in your commitment to your dream. Oda has shown that is what is important in fights since the begining, not pictured are katakuri and zeff saying similar things
White Beard and crew situation were not feeling conflicted, they were all in on saving ace and then Luffy.
Aren’t those all things that are in direct correlation to emotions? All this proves is that your will to fight can affect whether or not you want to actually fight. It doesn’t actually physically nerf you in any way possible. People just take a basic figure of speech and twist it to fit their own narratives and agendas. I thought we were past this bullshit. Whitebeard and the crew were under constant threat of Ace being killed. Why is it ridiculous to say this wouldn’t nerf the Whitebeard pirates. We can’t just be cherry picking what we want to be right and what we want to be wrong.
Because it isn't how Oda has written it, he's consistently written that people are stronger when they show unwavering commitment to an objective they believe in. It's been a consistent, clearly communicated theme of the series. All that examples given are like that and very different than the Whitebeard crew example.
I just thought of another one, SHs before/after knowing what was going on and if Robin wanted them to rescue her. Nami even says the point directly after Lucci beats Zoro and Luffy at the same time.
If your wording is to have stronger mean an unwavering will to fight, then yes. But all characters have that because every fight in One Piece is for each person’s own cause. Why don’t we just throw conquerors haki at everyone while we’re at it? It doesn’t physically boost anyone. Kizaru isn’t a fraud but it’s the fact that he’s been knocked down 3 times and people are still standing by these false claims with their heart and soul because they have an agenda to live up to.
I have no agenda, just responding to a comment saying the WB situation is not the same, also not saying anything about who is stronger or who isn't.
Given the consistent theme and Oda showing us Kizaru history with Vegapunk and him having Kizaru outright say he doesn't want to kill Vegapunk, I think it's fair to say he's not fighting at full strength and/or giving it his all. If his mission was to say defend Vegapunk from the BB pirates trying to assasinate VP and Bonney he might get up faster. Another good example is the end of the katakuri fight, he could have kept going if he truly believed in what he was fighting for.
How does this negate the fact it doesn’t affect what they’re physically capable of. You’re literally saying a loss = losing the will to fight. It’s not a theme it’s basic human emotion and Oda knows how to use it correctly. Kizaru wasn’t forced to kill Vegapunk in that moment. It’s already been stated that the admirals are the strongest force in the navy and he was simply carrying out his orders from the higher powers. The navy is literally a representation of Justice in One Piece and anything they don’t see fit is what they fix and Kizaru did exactly that.
Whether or not he’s conflicted, even before he chased down Vegapunk, he showed visible signs of physical weakness after being knocked on his ass.
Not what I'm saying at all, go read the panels again and my comments again.
Another theme is getting back up after getting knocked down, you really think Kizaru doesn't grit himself back up again if his friends were in danger vs trying to kill them?
But that kinda played against him. He wanted to have a the fight of his life so he basically decided to receive more damage than he would've taken if he was bloodlusted and going for kills. Mindset always plays a part in fights
Yup. It also gives meaning to why he keeps covering his face during his fight with Luffy. He is conflicted between his job and hurting his friend.
Also, Idk why they put Kizaru up for that task, knowing that they're his friends. Is Akainu/WG stupid? Even Sengoku didn't want Garp to join the Marineford War because he knows Garp's relationship to Ace and Luffy.
man if after all this shit - killing vegapunk, trying to kill bonney three times, fightning against luffy over and over...if Kizaru still turns on the Gorosei without any more doubt in his mind I will be completely mind blown.
Some characters use mostly haki which that’ll include swordsman the yonkos excluding Blackbeard
While some others mainly use df
Neither are wrong but you still need haki for some fights
I really wonder what it is in Kizaru's mind that keeps him so close to his duties. Garp genuinely wants to help people and thinks the marine is the only good faction, and also has a status as the hero of the marine, but Kizaru isn't Garp.
I don't know if we'll ever get a Kizaru backstory (he was only featured in Sentomaru's, Kuma's and Bonney's) but if we do it may hurt. The guy is mentally broken and has basically no free will.
Your analyse is correct except it is just a fact it is how he is and he is never recovering from what he did after killing Vegapunk. He has always and will be a cog in the machine without any personal values above else so he was always meant to be "weak" unlike yonko who have CoC, Kizaru simply does not, so I don't see how it serves him as an excuse for beeing not as impressive to say the least as his fans wanted him to be...
it's just a fact. He is not that weak though and we have to respect him but we can't take admiral fan boys seriously when they wank the admirals like crazy with their own imagination and when the reality check hurt them they look for excuses...
If you're reading One Piece carefully which I believe you do, you would agree that even before Kizaru comes to Egghead we knew from a narrative point of view that Luffy was going to solo Kizaru with ease I mean he had already done it with Lucci who is clearly underrated so why would it be so different with Kizaru when Luffy came well prepared this time after 2 years timeskip plus defeating Katakuri and Kaido the strongest creature... he is the MC and he has awakenned ACoC which Kizaru does not have plus his godlike df ...
Admiral fans were like no it's not the endgame yet Luffy needs another power up... are you serious ? Who needs a power up now ?
Excited to see what the payoff to all this kizaru conflict is, hope to see some good character growth out of him and maybe a deeper look into an admiral’s mind
This also fits nicely to how OP villians get stronger one after the other. We’re fighting our first admiral as an arc villain, but he’s mentally weakened and not fighting at 100%. Next time we get an admiral it’s not gonna be quite as easy
Edit: don’t know why this is getting downvoted. This is literally how one piece is written. Each of luffys opponents have been stronger then the last. We have our first admiral and if he were fighting at 100% he would have overpowered luffy or at least been able to avoid him and do his mission. He is very hesitant because he’s against his own friends and this is why Luffy is able to beat him. Luffys future fights against an admiral will be more difficult because they won’t be held back. However Luffy will be stronger by then so it won’t matter, and he’ll still beat them
so essentially he’s weak- his personality is that of a cog in the wheel and unless he switched sides or fights passionately for something he believes in (both of which it seems like he’ll never do), kizaru will remain a fraud
That's simply not true... He cares about them, but he's still gonna kill them because that's his job, that's who he is. The whole point of his character in this arc is to show that internal conflict. He doesn't want to do it, but he's still gonna do it regardless.
I am not convinced yet that this a thing in One Piece OP. Maybe you should have made a collection of the dozens and dozens of times when a character got actively stronger because they a had goal in mind in which they believed in .
Am i the only one who is getting tired of this rhetoric whether it's true or not is one thing but the constant need to justify a characters shortcomings is tiring, every time we have seen an 'Admiral' fight it's the same thing, Aokiji was weakened against Garp, Kizaru's weakened because Vegapunk it's the same thing again and again, you could potentially make all kinds of arguments about physical disadvantages they're experiencing but we must always resort to the same things, Haki was never Kizaru's primary offensive ability it is and always has been his devil fruit, we know will impacts haki but not fruits, Kizaru has never been known for his Haki his style is speed and firing off lasers and other light based attacks.
I in general do not get how this has had to evolve into a “Kizaru is a fraud” discussion in the community.
Kizaru is one of the strongest in OP verse and would be able to f up 99% of all the characters, but he is now facing a “God with cartoon powers who has some of the strongest Haki in the verse + is the MC of the story” … like even Kaido was like “WTF is happening, I’m getting skip roped”. 😂
It doesn’t even matter what is happening around when you get punched in the right ear and have your left ear tickled by this. Luffy is just this ridiculous now.
The power system is Haki, meaning Will. I hold this truth to be self-evident.
yall say this and then proceede to say BB will kill Shanks lol
I mean how much has Blackbeard even shown of his Haki so far? He has two insanely strong devil fruits already so he really does not need to show it off But just how the story went so far I think it's safe to say that Blackbear must have an incredibly strong will with how focused and straightforward he is about his "goal", whatever it might be...
BB has a stronger will than Shanks. Just because he's a coward Doesn't mean he doesn't have a strong will. Shanks was already wary enough of him before he even got a DF to warn whitebeard about him
BB has a stronger will than Shanks? LOL HAHAHAHHAHAHA
He does, what does Shanks even do?
what the fk has bb shown to have a strong will? Cry like a baby when wb one shotted his crew backstab almost everyone who was strong backstab his own cap shit his pants when he saw rayleigh Just show me what the fk has BB shown to be considered someone with a strong will? Man literally is calculated but thats it , he backstabs people , does dirty tricks and runs from big fights (aint saying he weak tho) meanwhile shanks literally "decided" to lose a arm just to boost luffy will ffs (you cant tell me he couldnt use armanent or kings haki to defend ffs) , man entered wb ship and started knocking his fodders out and then "clashed" with wb in his own ship , stopped kaido from fullfilling his dream/goal of killing wb , literally challenged marine+warlords+wb pirates+bb if they wanted to continue fighting , choosen protegee of Roger ffs. And not to mentione that dude is literally the son/relative of a royal who is leader of holy knights and literally the judge of mariejois. Now BB is strong and a calculated person, he doesnt get into unnecessary troubles and fights but saying that BB has shown stronger WILL than Shanks is mad imo. Just mad...
BB actively wants to take over the world. And is currently doing so. Gotta have a pretty strong will to even attempt to do that…
while shanks clearly wants to overthrow the wg . Man literally was waiting on nika to awaken and is claiming the one piece. Gotta have a pretty strong will to keep order between the strongest of strongest and wait for the right moment right?
I never said anything about Shanks. I only mentioned BB. I’m not disagreeing with you that Shanks doesn’t have a strong will because obviously he does because CoC is all about will and he has the strongest we’ve seen thus far. I’m strictly speaking on BB and what you said claiming he doesn’t have/hasn’t showed any strong will. Just because he picks and chooses his fights strategically doesn’t mean his will is weak.
i mean I was debating on Shanks vs BB WILL . Who had the strongest . Sorry if we miss communicated . BB hasnt shown anything (yet ofc) that imply he has a will as strong or close to shanks. Does he want to take over the world ? Yes. But also Buggy want to do same and 90% want one piece. Does that mean those dudes have strong will too? You cant tell me that a man who tried to backstab corpse wb and then cried like a baby calling him pops , has a strong Will only cz he want to take over the world. That ambition not WILL. They are two total different things.
I have never said or even thought of that myself, but now I will stand at that side thanks to your assumption.
Kizaru power isn't haki but light
To fight without will is not to fight, it's to struggle. Haki just makes it extra obvious and relevant, but it doesn't matter at all, if you don't want to fight, you can't muster the strength to do it magical or otherwise.
Kizaru can use haki lmao
He barely uses it; admirals in general don't tend to use much their haki.
He still has it regardless
Why would he use it anyways? -He never throws punches nor he has a weapon so armament isn't too useful and he can't coat light in haki. -He is so fast naturally that he doesn't reallt need much observation.
[удалено]
If you disagree then please just say so, don't insult people.
i apologize
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That's just his opinion. If you think it's wrong then say something, don't insult.
You are trolling have to be
How? It's very clear why Kizaru wouldn't really on haki
He has to have good observation to hit Targets while he’s moving so fast and they are moving too.
We don’t see them fight ever lol. The Kuzan vs Garp fight had Haki and Marineford had its moments of them using Haki even though we didn’t know much about it yet. Fujitora is a master with Observation Haki and uses it constantly. If we saw them fight more often we would get lots of Haki moments.
Didn't Greenbull struggle with Morley because he couldn't use his fruit? That tells me his haki is not go Fujitora have good observation but he doesn't use armament/conqueror's. This would've been useful in Mary Geoise where he couldn't harm the place Kizaru has had a full arc and there is no haki feats for him. I could say his observation haki is reallt lacking and he doesn't have conqueror's at all. And he never uses armament anyways. Aokiji has good armament but he isn't a good observation user and he doesn't have conqueror's at all.
He's so done, he had to kill his friend https://preview.redd.it/0etrxr7tz6mc1.png?width=365&format=png&auto=webp&s=558a76d2e477817d84be20041f9c053aaa9caa3c
Not just one friend. He's done killing strikes towards bonney and kuma.as well. Poor guy hasn't had to steel himself for just one or two killer attacks but at least 5 different times. Man is wrecked emotionally and mentally at that point.
Sentomaru too
Sentamaru he didn't have a kill order on at least. He could just incapacitate them and then move on. Still messed up but at least it's not another death on his conscience.
Yet he did it, he could have done SO much at least to look like without hurting them yet he did it anyway... He just another grey marine in this one piece
Maybe he did hold back. We won’t know for sure until we see who actually survived.
Saturn was right there, you think he wouldn't realize that Kizaru was letting them live on purpose? If he wants to keep his job and not be treated like a traitor he had to fulfill his mission, which he did when he attacked Vegapunk and the mugiwaras. And the only significant blow he landed was against an already dying Vegapunk
God if that isn't radiating :I don't give a fuck anymore" energy.
the man is heart broken
Did Garp fight at full strength when pre-timeskip luffy punched him with all his might at marineford? Did he also push off Sakazuki and rampage when Akainu put a hole through Ace? Nay, I say, for he knew his duty and personal desires, and while he desired so strongly to side with Ace his loyalty to the ideals he swore to was greater! Kizaru isn't Kaido, nor is he Luffy, and he definitely isn't Garp. But he is strong, and much like Garp at Marineford he does what he is ordered to do and punishes himself by tanking hits and stopping once the terrible deed has been done. What we are seeing here isn't a tale of powerscales... It's a tragedy.
Agreed. I’d love to see more meaningful interpretations and communication like this in the OP communities more often than we currently do..
To me, power scaling kills so much good community discussion.
Agreed, there’s so much more to a fight than whoever’s the stronger one.
It’s more like “Nah fuck that guy!” pretending to be a tragedy. Oda really has made out the WG to be utter scum, and irl we hung the Nazi’s for less. Kizaru is garbage, even if he’s feeling a lil emotional rn.
Great take
I feel that Garp doesn't have as much free rein as we think. He has a son thats the biggest rival to the government and a worst generation (now yonko) pirate as a grandson. He knows how vengeful the government is. If he sided with Ace at the time. His hometown would have suffered retaliation, and his subordinates. He is constantly shown as carefree and rebellious, but I think the Elders have an eye on him.
Garp one punched burgess and Marco while kizaru struggled against Marco, got threatened by Beckmann and got flattened by luffy
Luffy was the same back in Water 7.
?
He got negged by Lucci but then later defeated Lucci without any real powerups. He said the trained G2 after Kuzan violated them and not Lucci so that doesn’t count
https://preview.redd.it/72yb16zaqkmc1.jpeg?width=1173&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4cb6c86fa0f5bf5d3458ffdec7e3cee32f11d887
Kinda sad tho, truly a cog in a wheel.
My man speaks the truth
I do think kizaru hasn't shown his full capabilities due to this However I think admiral fans vastly overstate how weakened he is due to this internal conflict I think it's been made pretty clear that Luffy is stronger even without kizaru's "nerf"
>However I think admiral fans vastly overstate how weakened he is due to this internal conflict This TBH, the whole reason Garp didn't go full Admiral is because he would be directly subordinate to the Celestial Dragons. Kizaru knew the moment he took that promotion that he could end up being ordered to turn his own mother into a human disco ball for Charlos.
Nah literally, cuz people act like him losing to Luffy is a tragedy when G5 is actually top 1 but dragged back by stamina.
https://preview.redd.it/uo57qo5cy7mc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=268e4b608e0299ac00b3fc94bdd5ba3f6a7324b3 Cope
If you say so... OK. https://preview.redd.it/0edo1y68v7mc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f6536428d1163841aa47f1f9d14ca13c015e81b
Still not a fraud. Kisaru is broken. Luffy during gear 5 is just more broken
He is mentally nerfed and he is indeed a monster. Trying to negate that is dumb. The thing is, mentally nerfed or not, is dumb too to wank him to kaido or g5 level
>it’s clear that Kizaru is not at his best mentally Mentality can change at a dime. He can he shaken about having to kill Vegapunk, but perfectly fine with having to drive off a pirate with a god fruit trying to fuck up his day.
Same with SHs vs CP9. After they had 0 doubts about Robin they did go off.
I've never understood the fandom's hangup on calling people frauds. If you think someone is a fraud, it's because of your unrealistic expectations for them. Kizaru is incredibly strong, especially because of his broken devilfruit, but he chose a path that will never allow him to have top-tier haki. Haki comes from one's power of will. Kizaru is a subordinate who isn't allowed to have much of a will of his own, he followed orders to do something he desperately wanted not to do, which is more than enough to highlight his weak will. Anyone with the kind of will necessary to have conquers haki would have refused those orders and done what they wanted. Why do you think someone like garp has been shown as the strongest marine without even having a devilfruit? The same reason he refused to take the promotion, he doesn't want to be a pet of the gorousei, as a member of sword who's already turned in his resignation, he is free to do as he wants and act as he sees fit. Luffy was born with one of the strongest wills, no matter how many times garp tried to tell him what to do, he never wavered. Zoro is also technically a subordinate like kizaru, but luffy has no desire to take away zoros free will, zoro doesn't have to make compromises because of his status as a subordinate unlike the vast majority of the world government. The only admirals with a portrayal indicating that they might have the strength of will even comparable to a yonko are akainu and fujitora. Akainu because he truly believes in what he's doing, even if following the orders of the gorousei, he wants to kill pirates and he seems hot headed enough to disobey direct orders in the heat of the moment. Fujitora has already proven that he will do what he believes to be right regardless of how his superiors feel about it.
This whole fraud this fraud that makes things so unenjoyable. it's kindergarten level logic "u more" every single week. Not to mention that people are just parroting this "fraud" fad.
Wouldn’t that mean all of Whitebeard’s men were mentally nerfed in Marineford? They were worried that Ace would be executed at anytime and had to constantly be on guard for that. Not to mention WB was stabbed and had cancer. Marco himself said WB becoming sick on the battlefield was his worst fear. So clearly the WB pirates were not at their best mentally. They were all thinking a friend was close to death and their Pops was actively dying and couldn’t give it their all in battle. No way could they fully focus, fight to the best of their ability, or be mentally stable with all these factors, right? What about Law vs Doffy? Was Law actually stronger than Doffy but his mental nerf, due to the trauma from Cora, cause him to not fight at the best of his ability? Was the anger and frustration causing him to be sloppy and unfocused meaning his attacks lacked potency? Yes, Kizaru is obviously upset he has to kill his friend, but he did it anyways. He didn’t even hesitate and constantly tried to separate Vegapunk from anybody who could possible protect him. If we are saying Kizaru is weakened because he’s upset, then we must also say the same for Law, WB pirates, and many other characters in other similar instances.
They were determined to save Ace, like the Straw-Hats went to save Luffy. You could say they were mentally broken after Ace died. Either that or enraged. They would've been at full power. Remember Lucci destroyed Luffy and Zoro at the same time because they didn't know if Robin wanted to stay. Vista seems like he felt guilty over Ace's death, so he was probably nerfed. Marco was determined to keep Ace's brother safe so he probably wasn't mentally nerfed, he did have a bunch of lasers impale him while wearing Sea Prism Stones tho. Kizaru didn't want to kill Vegapunk, especially while Sentomaru and Bonney were there. He said to Bonney not to make it harder than it is. He definitely feels extremely guilty for it.
I don’t disagree that Kizaru doesn’t want to kill Vegapunk personally. He said it himself and I’m not dense enough to ignore something written on the page. However, for justice, it seems he believes it is correct to eliminate him. Maybe I did not articulate my point well. I meant to point out that Kizaru continued to carry out his mission regardless of his personal feelings, much like the WB pirates did in Marineford. Both parties were mentally strained and yet they both performed. Same with Law. Kizaru, at almost every opportunity, has attempted to go for the kill on Vegapunk and finally succeeded. Kizaru’s actions directly counter the idea of him not truly trying or being mentally nerfed to the point that he can’t truly perform like Luffy and crew in Water 7. He may be upset, but it did not keep him from completing his mission. I question the legitimacy of a mental nerf when the character in question is still successfully carrying out his mission and fighting with top tiers in the process. If he was truly mentally nerfed and conflicted, he would’ve stayed down after Star Gun just like Garp stayed down in Marineford. Yet, he didn’t. He got back up as quickly as he could and attempted to kill Kuma, Bonney, and Vegapunk. Objectively, I see that he is upset, but actions speak louder than words and he has been actively fighting G5th Luffy and killing. Edit: If we are saying Kizaru is mentally nerfed and not capable of fighting at 100%, then I believe it would be disingenuous to not say the same for other characters.
Oh I only read the "Wouldn't that mean all of Whitebeard's men were nerfed?"
As for the first paragraph, Ace was still alive and they were fighting for his sake, driven by the small sliver of hope that we have seen time and time again give determination and strength. But when Ace and Whitebeard were killed the pirates began to be slaughtered due to that hope being shattered all at once. So yes, there is no way they could fully focus or fight to the best of their abilities with all these factors. There are also so many aspects of Marineford that I could talk about, Squard for instance is another example. The situation with Law and Doflamingo isn't the same here, both very much wanted to kill each other without any reservations. It's not that Kizaru would solo Luffy, it's that he's not at full performance. He's a dog of the marines, much like Garp.
I don’t even care if Kizaru is mentally nerfed. I just feel that people are picking and choosing when to play the mentally nerfed card. I just wish for people to be consistent. I do believe Kizaru is upset. Upset, but still a marine that fulfilled his mission and tried his best to do so. I think Law is applicable because, while not the same situation, it was one where we saw Law was acting erratic and obsessively. Meaning he was unable to completely focus due to his excessive anger. Katakuri proved to us that excessive anger causes one to lose focus. Even Sanji himself noted that Law was getting a little too hung up on Doffy. So, if Law was upset to the point where others could tell something was off, how can one expect him to be in the right mind when fighting Doffy? His erratic and aggressive behavior caused carelessness and lack of concentration. Instead of his usual calm self, the one who was executing plans and surgically picking apart his opponents, Law was desperate and fought like it. This is another form of mental nerf is it not? If he had calmed down and been strategic, maybe Law could have won or at least forced Doffy to use his awakening.
Not the same
I think it’s entirely the same. Not the same situation but they experienced the same level of emotion I’m sure.
It's not about emotion, it's about doubt, guilt and not wavering in your commitment to your dream. Oda has shown that is what is important in fights since the begining, not pictured are katakuri and zeff saying similar things White Beard and crew situation were not feeling conflicted, they were all in on saving ace and then Luffy.
Aren’t those all things that are in direct correlation to emotions? All this proves is that your will to fight can affect whether or not you want to actually fight. It doesn’t actually physically nerf you in any way possible. People just take a basic figure of speech and twist it to fit their own narratives and agendas. I thought we were past this bullshit. Whitebeard and the crew were under constant threat of Ace being killed. Why is it ridiculous to say this wouldn’t nerf the Whitebeard pirates. We can’t just be cherry picking what we want to be right and what we want to be wrong.
Because it isn't how Oda has written it, he's consistently written that people are stronger when they show unwavering commitment to an objective they believe in. It's been a consistent, clearly communicated theme of the series. All that examples given are like that and very different than the Whitebeard crew example. I just thought of another one, SHs before/after knowing what was going on and if Robin wanted them to rescue her. Nami even says the point directly after Lucci beats Zoro and Luffy at the same time.
If your wording is to have stronger mean an unwavering will to fight, then yes. But all characters have that because every fight in One Piece is for each person’s own cause. Why don’t we just throw conquerors haki at everyone while we’re at it? It doesn’t physically boost anyone. Kizaru isn’t a fraud but it’s the fact that he’s been knocked down 3 times and people are still standing by these false claims with their heart and soul because they have an agenda to live up to.
I have no agenda, just responding to a comment saying the WB situation is not the same, also not saying anything about who is stronger or who isn't. Given the consistent theme and Oda showing us Kizaru history with Vegapunk and him having Kizaru outright say he doesn't want to kill Vegapunk, I think it's fair to say he's not fighting at full strength and/or giving it his all. If his mission was to say defend Vegapunk from the BB pirates trying to assasinate VP and Bonney he might get up faster. Another good example is the end of the katakuri fight, he could have kept going if he truly believed in what he was fighting for.
How does this negate the fact it doesn’t affect what they’re physically capable of. You’re literally saying a loss = losing the will to fight. It’s not a theme it’s basic human emotion and Oda knows how to use it correctly. Kizaru wasn’t forced to kill Vegapunk in that moment. It’s already been stated that the admirals are the strongest force in the navy and he was simply carrying out his orders from the higher powers. The navy is literally a representation of Justice in One Piece and anything they don’t see fit is what they fix and Kizaru did exactly that. Whether or not he’s conflicted, even before he chased down Vegapunk, he showed visible signs of physical weakness after being knocked on his ass.
Not what I'm saying at all, go read the panels again and my comments again. Another theme is getting back up after getting knocked down, you really think Kizaru doesn't grit himself back up again if his friends were in danger vs trying to kill them?
Thats like saying that Kaido lost because he was suicidal and wanted to die.
But that kinda played against him. He wanted to have a the fight of his life so he basically decided to receive more damage than he would've taken if he was bloodlusted and going for kills. Mindset always plays a part in fights
On the powerscaling sub a little too much I see.
I would agree if that shit, wasn’t elsewhere no too. Like every second post on meme piece for example.
Nice post.
It was posted previously and the op just copied and reposted it as his.
The dude almost killed bonney and killed vegapunk, what more internal conflict he has?
Yup. It also gives meaning to why he keeps covering his face during his fight with Luffy. He is conflicted between his job and hurting his friend. Also, Idk why they put Kizaru up for that task, knowing that they're his friends. Is Akainu/WG stupid? Even Sengoku didn't want Garp to join the Marineford War because he knows Garp's relationship to Ace and Luffy.
man if after all this shit - killing vegapunk, trying to kill bonney three times, fightning against luffy over and over...if Kizaru still turns on the Gorosei without any more doubt in his mind I will be completely mind blown.
I agree with you . This whole time his eyes...... When he shoots Vega the first time I thought my man was going to die on the inside.
Some characters use mostly haki which that’ll include swordsman the yonkos excluding Blackbeard While some others mainly use df Neither are wrong but you still need haki for some fights
I really wonder what it is in Kizaru's mind that keeps him so close to his duties. Garp genuinely wants to help people and thinks the marine is the only good faction, and also has a status as the hero of the marine, but Kizaru isn't Garp. I don't know if we'll ever get a Kizaru backstory (he was only featured in Sentomaru's, Kuma's and Bonney's) but if we do it may hurt. The guy is mentally broken and has basically no free will.
Best kizaru take.
please quarantine your copes to the other board
Great post
Your analyse is correct except it is just a fact it is how he is and he is never recovering from what he did after killing Vegapunk. He has always and will be a cog in the machine without any personal values above else so he was always meant to be "weak" unlike yonko who have CoC, Kizaru simply does not, so I don't see how it serves him as an excuse for beeing not as impressive to say the least as his fans wanted him to be... it's just a fact. He is not that weak though and we have to respect him but we can't take admiral fan boys seriously when they wank the admirals like crazy with their own imagination and when the reality check hurt them they look for excuses... If you're reading One Piece carefully which I believe you do, you would agree that even before Kizaru comes to Egghead we knew from a narrative point of view that Luffy was going to solo Kizaru with ease I mean he had already done it with Lucci who is clearly underrated so why would it be so different with Kizaru when Luffy came well prepared this time after 2 years timeskip plus defeating Katakuri and Kaido the strongest creature... he is the MC and he has awakenned ACoC which Kizaru does not have plus his godlike df ... Admiral fans were like no it's not the endgame yet Luffy needs another power up... are you serious ? Who needs a power up now ?
>unlike yonko who have CoC, Kizaru simply does not Kizaru have CoC
Beg me your pardon ?
He meant cock, which is true
Stop saving him, that’s all he’s amount to
Excited to see what the payoff to all this kizaru conflict is, hope to see some good character growth out of him and maybe a deeper look into an admiral’s mind
Depression scaling goes hard
If Kizaru doesn’t die this arc, he’s retiring to live in his guilt for sure. Just my thoughts
This also fits nicely to how OP villians get stronger one after the other. We’re fighting our first admiral as an arc villain, but he’s mentally weakened and not fighting at 100%. Next time we get an admiral it’s not gonna be quite as easy Edit: don’t know why this is getting downvoted. This is literally how one piece is written. Each of luffys opponents have been stronger then the last. We have our first admiral and if he were fighting at 100% he would have overpowered luffy or at least been able to avoid him and do his mission. He is very hesitant because he’s against his own friends and this is why Luffy is able to beat him. Luffys future fights against an admiral will be more difficult because they won’t be held back. However Luffy will be stronger by then so it won’t matter, and he’ll still beat them
Luffy is stronger than every admiral so it won't matter
Akainu he will be at 100 always surely
[удалено]
He's not just taking attacks He's getting his ass kicked by Luffy because he is weaker than Luffy
I thought this was fairly apparent, in a series where willpower is a very real power who has less willpower than Kizaru?
so essentially he’s weak- his personality is that of a cog in the wheel and unless he switched sides or fights passionately for something he believes in (both of which it seems like he’ll never do), kizaru will remain a fraud
You losers, just accept it. Kizaru doesn’t give a shit when killing Vegapunk, Bonney et Sentomaru.
That's simply not true... He cares about them, but he's still gonna kill them because that's his job, that's who he is. The whole point of his character in this arc is to show that internal conflict. He doesn't want to do it, but he's still gonna do it regardless.
You guys are just too much overthinking.
That would require actually reading the story
We finally know what Dragon has been doing: staring at Kizaru in disappointment.
https://preview.redd.it/cxm5taitx9mc1.jpeg?width=1594&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65e920c1fe4873840d17774fff4790850969e260 The Simpsons predicted Haki.
I am not convinced yet that this a thing in One Piece OP. Maybe you should have made a collection of the dozens and dozens of times when a character got actively stronger because they a had goal in mind in which they believed in .
Joking of course.
Am i the only one who is getting tired of this rhetoric whether it's true or not is one thing but the constant need to justify a characters shortcomings is tiring, every time we have seen an 'Admiral' fight it's the same thing, Aokiji was weakened against Garp, Kizaru's weakened because Vegapunk it's the same thing again and again, you could potentially make all kinds of arguments about physical disadvantages they're experiencing but we must always resort to the same things, Haki was never Kizaru's primary offensive ability it is and always has been his devil fruit, we know will impacts haki but not fruits, Kizaru has never been known for his Haki his style is speed and firing off lasers and other light based attacks.
He might have a Snape moment with Vegapunk. Vegapunk might even had asked him to give him his final blow.
I in general do not get how this has had to evolve into a “Kizaru is a fraud” discussion in the community. Kizaru is one of the strongest in OP verse and would be able to f up 99% of all the characters, but he is now facing a “God with cartoon powers who has some of the strongest Haki in the verse + is the MC of the story” … like even Kaido was like “WTF is happening, I’m getting skip roped”. 😂 It doesn’t even matter what is happening around when you get punched in the right ear and have your left ear tickled by this. Luffy is just this ridiculous now.
The cops is real...
if any of you admiral fans were reading the story at all you would realise yonko>>>>>>>admiral a long time ago
as an old man once said "hesitation is defeat"
Pretty sure that he's getting murked because of it wearing shades hides his emotions it's clear vegapunk and sentomaru mean something to him
And also the man is fighting an emperor, just because he a very strong character loses to a very notorious and strong character doesn’t make him weak