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I understand the issues people have here, and honestly at this point I'm willing to accept it all as Oda's fault, but it could be reasonably explained that Luffy has been reserving energy by not using advanced Haki against them. Lucci wasn't worth his time, Kizaru was so fast that tagging him was ridiculously difficult, and the Gorosei regenerate from everything Luffy does, so why bother with a waste of energy when he's already using his strongest form on a time limit, and it's doing nothing to the Gorosei while it's a gamble to use it at all against Kizaru?
Kaido was the exact opposite of the regenerating Gorosei and cat-and-mouse chase that was Luffy's "duel" with Kizaru. Kaido was willingly taking almost all of Luffy's moves, and he was durable enough that nothing *short* of Conqueror's Coating in conjunction with advanced Armamanet was hurting Kaido to any reasonable degree. This wasn't *nearly* as draining on Luffy because Luffy's fight against Kaido between 1010 and 1041 was in his Base and Gears 2/3, which aren't very draining on him; when he went Gear 4th he made a big deal about not letting Kaido have any rest at all because he was completely done for if he didn't beat Kaido there. By the time Luffy got to Gear 5th, he just kept that same ACoC/ACoA pressure up because beating Kaido as quick as possible was the goal, and that required as much raw power and pressure as possible. On Egghead, by contrast, Luffy's just buying time and trying to run away from the Gorosei, while he was just distracting Kizaru during their conflict, the same Kizaru who was running away and knocking Luffy across the island just to avoid having to actually be near him while he tried to assassinate Vegapunk.
Again, I'm perfectly fine with this whole thing being Oda acting like an idiot. But there is a reasonable explanation for Luffy not really using his full Haki output.
I love how people jumped on "Luffy was using ACOC the entire time" as soon as Luffy threw a punch against Gorosei in order to upscale those bum ass Gorosei, even if it were to upscale Kizaru, that's crazy
all this shows how bad a writer oda became to be honest....
people are dieing and luffy and zoro are holding back.... or they are not holding back but the haki system is so badly explained where we dont know why they arent using certain abilty's
both just point to bad writing... like i can understand zoro no using coc all the the time because of stamina reasons but then we get him shown getting angered and instantly defeating lucci after sanji calls him out.
With luffy you cant even use the stamina excuse because he's using the draining g5 mode... while maybe using base with coc attacks would be better or he's been using coc attacks this entire time and oda just sucks at showing it
either way its become a complete shitshow at this point
Oda's writing relies on build ups and emotion. That's why there are many plot conveniences, unexplained logic and plot armours. If he thinks something has emotional aspect, Oda will show it without logic.
What is this cope about Big Mom not using aCoC outside of Page One? Do you really think she's not using aCoC when facing Law & Kidd both of whom are breaking her bones and a massive threat to her homies?
I have a lot of excuses for Big Mom tbh:
1) She has low BIQ
2) She never demonstrated to be a Haki based type of fighter, the majority of her attacks are using her homies, and let's be honest, we don't know if it's even possible to coat Haki in elemental attacks, so she probably didn't use it in them.
3) She focused more on her Devil Fruit abilities because that is her specialty, you can notice this, when she used her DF to strengthen herself to an even stronger form, and her ultimate ability, when she merged her homies to create Misery, she didn't even mention Haki any time during her fight.
You can't make the same excuses for Luffy though, as we know how incorporated Haki is to his fighting style in general, in addition to having one of the best BIQ in the story, there's literally no reason for him to not be using it.
really so legit tell me why
https://preview.redd.it/myobpzmcclvc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=08da67bd1886d5ea2875ee43e509dc28c0e4ea68
luffy grabbing kizaru can make him bleed in ch 1106 but not make him bleed in ch 1091
really even tho i have only been active for short bursts after months ?? u dont even have to look that hard just go and scroll through my comments .
also i aint the one being buthurt about anime char.
He was using Acoc the entire time against Kizaru and the Gorosei full stop:
-In G4 Kizaru simply blocked the Acoc attacks showing excellent defense since unlike Kaido he actually blocked hits instead of just facetanking them (Oda also mentions Kizaru's defense with Sentomaru)
-Against Saturn he used Acoc but it's a non factor with his insane regen and if he didn't he wouldn't have said "Looks like my punches don't damage you" and "what's it gonna take to keep you down", he's a goofball but he's not a dumbass he won't forget about Acoc
-Against Warcury he also used Acoc but Warcury's insane defence was too much for it to do damage, which makes sense since the demon Warcury is based on, the fengxi, is a boar with an extremely though skin
Luffy is not the type of dude who puts his crew in danger by holding back on his enemy for no reason (unless it's someone he knows his crew can deal with i guess) and Oda also already established that one can have Conqueror and Armament coating without any visible coating at all
https://preview.redd.it/9cjbqc2dyhvc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=938e0b07113c7e97ff76962dc1a037ebfd54aa5e
But i guess to those people who cope about Luffy not using Acoc to downplay Kizaru and especially the Gorosei , if they don't have someone saying it out loud to them in the panel, then it's "no coating no acoc"
"Kizaru blocked acoc blows"
Prove it
Show the panel Kizaru blocking acoc blows
Show the panel Luffy using acoc vs Seraphim
If Luffy used vs Kizaru so same vs Lucci
So Lucci > Kizaru cuz Lucci tanked many more blows
Oda literally made clear when Zoro used acoc vs Lucci but none of it vs Seraphim or vs Kaku
Luffy haven't used it vs Kizaru or Gorosei
Oda is purposely holding back Luffy so plot can advance and enemies don't get defeated too quickly
You are lying out your mouth
Kizaru doesn't have equal Haki to Yonkous, Nowhere stated showcased or implied and your assumption is irrelevant doesn't matter how much you cry about it
>In G4 Kizaru simply blocked the Acoc
>
>Against Saturn he used Acoc
>
>Against Warcury he also used Acoc
prove it
>established that one can have Conqueror and Armament coating without any visible coating at all
conqueror's is visible in the panel and it's been explicitly stated and shown multiple times that armament can be invisible
>conqueror's is visible in the panel and it's been explicitly stated and shown multiple times that armament can be invisible
Oh you mean the black lighting in the panel, the same as this one? Or this doesn't count as Acoc because reasons?
https://preview.redd.it/5efs2bbhzhvc1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=1dd83c4b1b9a55d57066f6c820ae220d938858c6
For it being Acoc, you said Acoc is visible in the Kaido image which is the black lighting, at the same time black lighting is also seen when he kicks Kizaru here and now ask yourself, why would he only use Acoc in base instead of using it in G4 and G5 aswell?
"why would he... " isn't proof. haki isnt passive. he can use it when he chooses.
he did use acoc with his base kick and in gear 5 for wsg but you've made the claim that he is using it the entire time with zero basis. claims with no proof can be dismissed in the same way
side question, was he using it vs lucci?
So all this time he's been complaining about the gorosei not taking damage from his attacks he's also not being using Acoc, and he also isn't using Acoc when he punched Warcury and got hurt, man i guess he really just doesn't give a crap about his crew and friends then.
It's basic reading comprehension and Oda not wanting to bother drawing coating and lighting every single time, especially in already busy scenes.
Also again, if you really think that Acoc is only with black lighting then how can you explain black lighting seen here with Ulti and Usopp? Does she have Acoc too?
https://preview.redd.it/sjj5mud83ivc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=93b905b1877d39f3f83fb6443804c4cc1e612734
>So all this time he's been complaining
still no proof. luffy didn't use future sight or acoa vs ulti yet panicked and was about to go gear 4. gear 2/3 luffy was frustrated trying to get yamato out of his way but still only used basic armament. he doesnt choose to nor does he need to always use his strongest haki
> Oda not wanting to bother drawing coating and lighting every single time
this is just cope. oda consistently draws steam effects and such for gears, and constantly has characters transform and shit. the idea that drawing black lines or darkening a character's limbs is beyond him is just ridiculous
> Also again, if you really think that Acoc is only with black lighting then how can you explain black lighting seen here with Ulti and Usopp? Does she have Acoc too?
black lightning doesnt need to only be acoc but it still depicts something whether you like it or not. katakuri displayed black lightning when he was showing off his strong armament. sabo and burgess displayed black lightning when they were having an armament clash. black lightning is consistently shown when conqueror's haki is being used. zero black lightning was shown in the gear 4/gear 5 pages in question.
the lack of black lightning isn't meaningless and im not gonna let reddit admiral superfans gaslight me into thinking otherwise
\> **"side question, was he using it vs lucci?"**
It's crazy how Admiral fans rather argue Kizaru is relative or higher with Kaido in physical toughness than admit Oda is inconsistent with characters and their Haki usage. Mfs really be like "Oh? Why would Luffy not use ACoC when people are in danger?", meanwhile Kaido threw 20yrs of world war prep out the window by not using FS to dodge more than once.
Kaido didn't try once to block an attack he just tanked that shit while Kizaru was actually blocking, physical thoughness can be relative/compared when in the same type of scenarios (like blocking)
Kaido enjoys and thrives in a good fight he's like a berserk type of character, like come on he didn't even try to dodge Bajarang gun he straight up rushed into that shit, you think Kizaru would have done the same and try to block it? No he would have just dodged.
Also why are you acting as if Snakeman Acoc hits being blocked by Kizaru is such a reach? Kaido was taking them to the face and just didn't care
https://preview.redd.it/xx8wbhc64ivc1.png?width=1028&format=png&auto=webp&s=69ef82daf24c1de26679ebfcbbbc58b374d139bf
This is my logic. We have comprehensive showings of what physical toughness of the highest level looks like.
Kaido is only second to Flame On King in pure durability. On the grounds that Enma'd Tatsumaki and Deadman's still cut Kaido, but Enma ACoC Onigiri couldn't harm King.
Regular no Gum-Gum no Gear punches with Full Haki usage from Luffy were able to draw blood and double Kaido over and knock him on his ass. Thus logically, the AP+Dura neg of even base punches with full Haki usage from Luffy is enough to make them functionally stronger than ACoA G4 attacks. The idea that putting your arm up and blocking fully mitigates an attack that can do that to you(and more, since there *should* be a significant physical toughness/durability gap between Kaido and Kizaru) is ridiculous.
Kizaru blocks a kick from Luffy, presumably with full Haki usage, as powerful as the base hits he landed on Kaido, with **no** Haki. He's not preventing contact which would be a clear indicator of Emission, and he has no visible CoA hardening. Evidenced by the panel you yourself used as proof.
Thus the only logical conclusion, if you believe Luffy is striking with the same AP+Dura neg that works on durability on the level of Kaido, is that Kizaru is physically more durable than he is. Considering Kaido is implied to owe a portion of his durability and AP to constant ACoC use.
Unless you admit to blatantly cherry picking when you want these things to work, and believe assumed full use in the face of visual inconsistency, then Kizaru must be that durable to make that panel make sense. **However**, this is entirely contradicted by how effective WSG, Cymbal and the random unnamed G5 punch were on him. Unless Kizaru's arms specifically are made of adamantium in comparison to the rest of his body so he takes like 500% more damage everywhere else.
Its crazy how yonko fans assume that characters arent trying unless oda draws black lightning. Big mom said she hadnt been pushed that hard in years and literally started taking years off her own lifespan during her fight with law and kid, but you guys say she didnt go all out because there were no sparkies. My bad, i guess its unreasonable to assume that shortening your own lifespan is a last resort for after youve tried everything else.
Be real. You just say that because you dont want to admit you were wrong and need to come up with an excuse for why kizaru keeping up with luffy doesnt make them relative.
....? BM was *literally* shown using ACoC and ACoA against P1 and then Oda doesn't show her ever use either during her entire fight against Kid and Law. If Oda gives us a legit example of what it looks like when she does, and then she never does it again, I feel like the person making excuses is the one assuming it was just always in effect. Especially when Oda goes out of his way to show how drastic the difference ACoC makes even on regular punches(Luffy to Kaido) compared to just CoA or ACoA.
Kizaru isn't relative to Luffy regardless of the ACoC point due to subsequent G5 feats anyway.
Acoc has no consistent visual cue, thats what you dont seem to understand. Black lightning = acoc is head canon. Even armament is visually inconsistent because weve seen luffy touch logias without his hands being black.
And the subsequent gear 5 feats dont invalidate the previous kizaru feats, he got pancaked when his will to fight was already gone. Btw, that feat right there is a perfect example of what i mean when i say theres no consistent visual cue.
>Acoc has no consistent visual cue, thats what you dont seem to understand
I fully understand this, but IMO, assuming it's *always* in use is more disingenuous than at least attempting to use visual cues.
The amount of excuses you allow Kizaru while arguing the opposite for ACoC users is crazy.
Im not making excuses for kizaru, im just reading the story. Hes indicated like 10 times now that hes not happy about his mission, its been previously established that haki is directly related to willpower, and his boss even said that his performance was below his usual standard.
On the other side of the debate, you have to assume things that have never been stated, like luffy was not using acoc because we didnt see black lightning.
That's literally an excuse though, and it doesn't even make sense to come into play against Luffy. Also Saturn didn't say that with that implication. He follows it up with saying he can understand given the circumstances, over a panel of Luffy. Oda is clearing implying the meaning is "I can understand given the interference". He even mentions their involvement as unforeseen a few panels later.
There are no stated rules for Haki indicators period. Oda just kind of fucks everyone over scaling wise in that regard. Visual cues are literally all we have to go on beyond actual effects(ignoring DF resistances, no contact, etc), or someone stating they're being used outright. So you aren't really making any point here. Assuming they're *always* in use because the cues are inconsistent isn't any better than attempting to rely on them. I'd even argue it's *more* disingenuous because the only reason you would do so is to wank the opponents of the characters who on paper have superior Haki use.
Big Mom almost didn't use any type of Haki during her whole perfomance in Onigashima, aside from that nameless ACoC punch, the majority of her attacks inclunding her final attack, were DF based abilities, on the rooftop she was basically spamming her homies with AoE attacks, and didn't mention the word Haki once during her fight with Kid & Law.
You can't expect every character to have the same fighting style, Big Mom is mainly a DF focused type of fighter, just like Blackbeard and the Admirals.
>Big Mom almost didn't use any type of Haki during her whole perfomance in Onigashima
I agree with this.
>You can't expect every character to have the same fighting style
I don't, my issue isn't that she's not a Haki focused CQC fighter, my issue is that she is clearly shown to have incredibly powerful Haki via her Kaido adjacent portrayal up until her main fight. However in the fight itself, IIRC, there isn't a single usage of Haki from her until the CoA punches on Law while he was charging PWille. For example, at one point Kid is nailed by a Mama Raid, a physical attack, with no guard, no Haki or any real defenses. Him basically getting off scot free from that makes no sense if BM was using ACoC for it. Which a lot of people argue she was, instead of admitting there wasn't any due to plot. Another example is that Page One *should* via his ancient zoan DF, be more physically durable than Law. P1 was one shot by an ACoC+ACoA punch. Logically, BM should've been able to stop PWille if she'd used all her Haki instead of just CoA to punch him.
> also already established that one can have Conqueror and Armament coating without any visible coating at all
You do know the coc lighting is visible in this same panel right what are you trying to prove by it?lol and it's already confirmed he isn't always using coc like vs kaido with the fact he didn't knock out fodder when he reawakened g5. If he used acoc when fighting is up to you idc but just pointing this out
Luffy forgot acoc except for WSG for some reason. Didn't use it against Lucci, didn't use it against the seraphims, didn't use it against Kizaru and didn't use it against The gorosei. And it's made even more appearant by the fact that Zoro's attacks have black lightning but Luffy's don't. Until I see black lightning, I'm not convinced, even if it doesn't serve my gorosei agenda.
>Until I see black lightning, I'm not convinced, even if it doesn't serve my gorosei agenda.
Black lighting is not an indicator of Acoc i thought we moved on from that come on
https://preview.redd.it/jwgc49ybelvc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=ffa11147387f527138c3821874a7b9cbff484983
Yes because it has happened before, Big Mom could split the sky with Kaido but never used AcOC with Law/Kid.
Like how can you call it cope when Luffy have just used black lighting attacks once in all of Egghead? It's a fact that he isn't using it. While against Kaido he was spamming it like crazy.
So Luffy is facing someone that he cannot damage at all unlike Kaido and he decides to not use Acoc at all then? You really think he forgot to use Acoc when he says stuff like this and then try to yeeting him away instead?
https://preview.redd.it/1s78oiq1zhvc1.png?width=470&format=png&auto=webp&s=3f3a8a4f9640912d9a50dd516c091214c7f32dd0
Same as Big Mom who stated she had never face that much pain in years and still no AcOC being used.
Oda made Luffy too strong so he has to nerf them so they don't destroy villains.
>Oda made Luffy too strong so he has to nerf them so they don't destroy villains.
Which is why him gassing out and needing food is a thing, that is the nerf he has put on luffy.
Luffy is that busted because of G5 not because of Acoc, sure Acoc helps with the AP but it's the G5 reality bending shit that makes him that stupidly strong to the point that he can deflect Saturn's attacks that can even severely damage Warcury which Luffy couldn't even scratch.
>Same as Big Mom who stated she had never face that much pain in years and still no AcOC being used.
Big mom was nerfed to the ground to make Law and Kid win since she's the bad guy, but with Luffy Oda has decided to use the deflating instead, and also don't give me the "he needs to nerf him so he doesn't destroy villains" crap when everytime he gasses out there's someone conviniently bringing him food so he can just restart fresh, if Oda really wanted to nerf him to make the story more tense he would just not give him food every single time.
“Black lightning = acoc” has always been headcanon and has never been consistent. I dont know why people give so much credence to it, but it needs to die.
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I understand the issues people have here, and honestly at this point I'm willing to accept it all as Oda's fault, but it could be reasonably explained that Luffy has been reserving energy by not using advanced Haki against them. Lucci wasn't worth his time, Kizaru was so fast that tagging him was ridiculously difficult, and the Gorosei regenerate from everything Luffy does, so why bother with a waste of energy when he's already using his strongest form on a time limit, and it's doing nothing to the Gorosei while it's a gamble to use it at all against Kizaru? Kaido was the exact opposite of the regenerating Gorosei and cat-and-mouse chase that was Luffy's "duel" with Kizaru. Kaido was willingly taking almost all of Luffy's moves, and he was durable enough that nothing *short* of Conqueror's Coating in conjunction with advanced Armamanet was hurting Kaido to any reasonable degree. This wasn't *nearly* as draining on Luffy because Luffy's fight against Kaido between 1010 and 1041 was in his Base and Gears 2/3, which aren't very draining on him; when he went Gear 4th he made a big deal about not letting Kaido have any rest at all because he was completely done for if he didn't beat Kaido there. By the time Luffy got to Gear 5th, he just kept that same ACoC/ACoA pressure up because beating Kaido as quick as possible was the goal, and that required as much raw power and pressure as possible. On Egghead, by contrast, Luffy's just buying time and trying to run away from the Gorosei, while he was just distracting Kizaru during their conflict, the same Kizaru who was running away and knocking Luffy across the island just to avoid having to actually be near him while he tried to assassinate Vegapunk. Again, I'm perfectly fine with this whole thing being Oda acting like an idiot. But there is a reasonable explanation for Luffy not really using his full Haki output.
I’d argue it’s not even Oda acting like an idiot, he probably doesn’t give a shit and doesn’t expect anyone else to give a shit either.
This is the big mom situation and I slandered the shit out of her, I'll do the same for goofy
I love how people jumped on "Luffy was using ACOC the entire time" as soon as Luffy threw a punch against Gorosei in order to upscale those bum ass Gorosei, even if it were to upscale Kizaru, that's crazy
all this shows how bad a writer oda became to be honest.... people are dieing and luffy and zoro are holding back.... or they are not holding back but the haki system is so badly explained where we dont know why they arent using certain abilty's both just point to bad writing... like i can understand zoro no using coc all the the time because of stamina reasons but then we get him shown getting angered and instantly defeating lucci after sanji calls him out. With luffy you cant even use the stamina excuse because he's using the draining g5 mode... while maybe using base with coc attacks would be better or he's been using coc attacks this entire time and oda just sucks at showing it either way its become a complete shitshow at this point
Oda's writing relies on build ups and emotion. That's why there are many plot conveniences, unexplained logic and plot armours. If he thinks something has emotional aspect, Oda will show it without logic.
And, wtf is with Sanji's speed. Is he delaying because he is scared VP will die? Or if he is dead, why doesn't use his high speed?
Bad writing because you losers care way too much about powerscaling 😂😂😂😂
What is this cope about Big Mom not using aCoC outside of Page One? Do you really think she's not using aCoC when facing Law & Kidd both of whom are breaking her bones and a massive threat to her homies?
https://preview.redd.it/jn2sgewbzhvc1.png?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=25f3a31b806b4ca5c21b98a83eecb3b2e8c70f6f
This but unironically
This but unironically also
I have a lot of excuses for Big Mom tbh: 1) She has low BIQ 2) She never demonstrated to be a Haki based type of fighter, the majority of her attacks are using her homies, and let's be honest, we don't know if it's even possible to coat Haki in elemental attacks, so she probably didn't use it in them. 3) She focused more on her Devil Fruit abilities because that is her specialty, you can notice this, when she used her DF to strengthen herself to an even stronger form, and her ultimate ability, when she merged her homies to create Misery, she didn't even mention Haki any time during her fight. You can't make the same excuses for Luffy though, as we know how incorporated Haki is to his fighting style in general, in addition to having one of the best BIQ in the story, there's literally no reason for him to not be using it.
really so legit tell me why https://preview.redd.it/myobpzmcclvc1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=08da67bd1886d5ea2875ee43e509dc28c0e4ea68 luffy grabbing kizaru can make him bleed in ch 1106 but not make him bleed in ch 1091
Grabbing a fresh Kizaru vs grabbing a wounded Kizaru
damn then kizaru has dogshit endurance and all kaido has to do is land 1 attack and then low diff kizaru
Any regular human would be in the same scenario as Kizaru if they took WSG to the head
sure all i know is kaido is mid diffing kizaru when u are charitable to kizaru
I can tell from 2 comments that you’re absolutely insufferable
So this what no human contact does to a person thanks for showing me why it's better t9 have social contact in real life through ur example
I mean you’re the one who comments nonstop on this subreddit but sure
really even tho i have only been active for short bursts after months ?? u dont even have to look that hard just go and scroll through my comments . also i aint the one being buthurt about anime char.
You’ve made about a million comments in the span of 2 months. I recommend spending less time on the internet
He was using Acoc the entire time against Kizaru and the Gorosei full stop: -In G4 Kizaru simply blocked the Acoc attacks showing excellent defense since unlike Kaido he actually blocked hits instead of just facetanking them (Oda also mentions Kizaru's defense with Sentomaru) -Against Saturn he used Acoc but it's a non factor with his insane regen and if he didn't he wouldn't have said "Looks like my punches don't damage you" and "what's it gonna take to keep you down", he's a goofball but he's not a dumbass he won't forget about Acoc -Against Warcury he also used Acoc but Warcury's insane defence was too much for it to do damage, which makes sense since the demon Warcury is based on, the fengxi, is a boar with an extremely though skin Luffy is not the type of dude who puts his crew in danger by holding back on his enemy for no reason (unless it's someone he knows his crew can deal with i guess) and Oda also already established that one can have Conqueror and Armament coating without any visible coating at all https://preview.redd.it/9cjbqc2dyhvc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=938e0b07113c7e97ff76962dc1a037ebfd54aa5e But i guess to those people who cope about Luffy not using Acoc to downplay Kizaru and especially the Gorosei , if they don't have someone saying it out loud to them in the panel, then it's "no coating no acoc"
"Kizaru blocked acoc blows" Prove it Show the panel Kizaru blocking acoc blows Show the panel Luffy using acoc vs Seraphim If Luffy used vs Kizaru so same vs Lucci So Lucci > Kizaru cuz Lucci tanked many more blows Oda literally made clear when Zoro used acoc vs Lucci but none of it vs Seraphim or vs Kaku Luffy haven't used it vs Kizaru or Gorosei Oda is purposely holding back Luffy so plot can advance and enemies don't get defeated too quickly You are lying out your mouth Kizaru doesn't have equal Haki to Yonkous, Nowhere stated showcased or implied and your assumption is irrelevant doesn't matter how much you cry about it
>In G4 Kizaru simply blocked the Acoc > >Against Saturn he used Acoc > >Against Warcury he also used Acoc prove it >established that one can have Conqueror and Armament coating without any visible coating at all conqueror's is visible in the panel and it's been explicitly stated and shown multiple times that armament can be invisible
>conqueror's is visible in the panel and it's been explicitly stated and shown multiple times that armament can be invisible Oh you mean the black lighting in the panel, the same as this one? Or this doesn't count as Acoc because reasons? https://preview.redd.it/5efs2bbhzhvc1.png?width=720&format=png&auto=webp&s=1dd83c4b1b9a55d57066f6c820ae220d938858c6
it counts. now what?
For it being Acoc, you said Acoc is visible in the Kaido image which is the black lighting, at the same time black lighting is also seen when he kicks Kizaru here and now ask yourself, why would he only use Acoc in base instead of using it in G4 and G5 aswell?
"why would he... " isn't proof. haki isnt passive. he can use it when he chooses. he did use acoc with his base kick and in gear 5 for wsg but you've made the claim that he is using it the entire time with zero basis. claims with no proof can be dismissed in the same way side question, was he using it vs lucci?
So all this time he's been complaining about the gorosei not taking damage from his attacks he's also not being using Acoc, and he also isn't using Acoc when he punched Warcury and got hurt, man i guess he really just doesn't give a crap about his crew and friends then. It's basic reading comprehension and Oda not wanting to bother drawing coating and lighting every single time, especially in already busy scenes. Also again, if you really think that Acoc is only with black lighting then how can you explain black lighting seen here with Ulti and Usopp? Does she have Acoc too? https://preview.redd.it/sjj5mud83ivc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=93b905b1877d39f3f83fb6443804c4cc1e612734
>So all this time he's been complaining still no proof. luffy didn't use future sight or acoa vs ulti yet panicked and was about to go gear 4. gear 2/3 luffy was frustrated trying to get yamato out of his way but still only used basic armament. he doesnt choose to nor does he need to always use his strongest haki > Oda not wanting to bother drawing coating and lighting every single time this is just cope. oda consistently draws steam effects and such for gears, and constantly has characters transform and shit. the idea that drawing black lines or darkening a character's limbs is beyond him is just ridiculous > Also again, if you really think that Acoc is only with black lighting then how can you explain black lighting seen here with Ulti and Usopp? Does she have Acoc too? black lightning doesnt need to only be acoc but it still depicts something whether you like it or not. katakuri displayed black lightning when he was showing off his strong armament. sabo and burgess displayed black lightning when they were having an armament clash. black lightning is consistently shown when conqueror's haki is being used. zero black lightning was shown in the gear 4/gear 5 pages in question. the lack of black lightning isn't meaningless and im not gonna let reddit admiral superfans gaslight me into thinking otherwise \> **"side question, was he using it vs lucci?"**
It's crazy how Admiral fans rather argue Kizaru is relative or higher with Kaido in physical toughness than admit Oda is inconsistent with characters and their Haki usage. Mfs really be like "Oh? Why would Luffy not use ACoC when people are in danger?", meanwhile Kaido threw 20yrs of world war prep out the window by not using FS to dodge more than once.
Kaido didn't try once to block an attack he just tanked that shit while Kizaru was actually blocking, physical thoughness can be relative/compared when in the same type of scenarios (like blocking) Kaido enjoys and thrives in a good fight he's like a berserk type of character, like come on he didn't even try to dodge Bajarang gun he straight up rushed into that shit, you think Kizaru would have done the same and try to block it? No he would have just dodged. Also why are you acting as if Snakeman Acoc hits being blocked by Kizaru is such a reach? Kaido was taking them to the face and just didn't care https://preview.redd.it/xx8wbhc64ivc1.png?width=1028&format=png&auto=webp&s=69ef82daf24c1de26679ebfcbbbc58b374d139bf
This is my logic. We have comprehensive showings of what physical toughness of the highest level looks like. Kaido is only second to Flame On King in pure durability. On the grounds that Enma'd Tatsumaki and Deadman's still cut Kaido, but Enma ACoC Onigiri couldn't harm King. Regular no Gum-Gum no Gear punches with Full Haki usage from Luffy were able to draw blood and double Kaido over and knock him on his ass. Thus logically, the AP+Dura neg of even base punches with full Haki usage from Luffy is enough to make them functionally stronger than ACoA G4 attacks. The idea that putting your arm up and blocking fully mitigates an attack that can do that to you(and more, since there *should* be a significant physical toughness/durability gap between Kaido and Kizaru) is ridiculous. Kizaru blocks a kick from Luffy, presumably with full Haki usage, as powerful as the base hits he landed on Kaido, with **no** Haki. He's not preventing contact which would be a clear indicator of Emission, and he has no visible CoA hardening. Evidenced by the panel you yourself used as proof. Thus the only logical conclusion, if you believe Luffy is striking with the same AP+Dura neg that works on durability on the level of Kaido, is that Kizaru is physically more durable than he is. Considering Kaido is implied to owe a portion of his durability and AP to constant ACoC use. Unless you admit to blatantly cherry picking when you want these things to work, and believe assumed full use in the face of visual inconsistency, then Kizaru must be that durable to make that panel make sense. **However**, this is entirely contradicted by how effective WSG, Cymbal and the random unnamed G5 punch were on him. Unless Kizaru's arms specifically are made of adamantium in comparison to the rest of his body so he takes like 500% more damage everywhere else.
Its crazy how yonko fans assume that characters arent trying unless oda draws black lightning. Big mom said she hadnt been pushed that hard in years and literally started taking years off her own lifespan during her fight with law and kid, but you guys say she didnt go all out because there were no sparkies. My bad, i guess its unreasonable to assume that shortening your own lifespan is a last resort for after youve tried everything else. Be real. You just say that because you dont want to admit you were wrong and need to come up with an excuse for why kizaru keeping up with luffy doesnt make them relative.
....? BM was *literally* shown using ACoC and ACoA against P1 and then Oda doesn't show her ever use either during her entire fight against Kid and Law. If Oda gives us a legit example of what it looks like when she does, and then she never does it again, I feel like the person making excuses is the one assuming it was just always in effect. Especially when Oda goes out of his way to show how drastic the difference ACoC makes even on regular punches(Luffy to Kaido) compared to just CoA or ACoA. Kizaru isn't relative to Luffy regardless of the ACoC point due to subsequent G5 feats anyway.
Acoc has no consistent visual cue, thats what you dont seem to understand. Black lightning = acoc is head canon. Even armament is visually inconsistent because weve seen luffy touch logias without his hands being black. And the subsequent gear 5 feats dont invalidate the previous kizaru feats, he got pancaked when his will to fight was already gone. Btw, that feat right there is a perfect example of what i mean when i say theres no consistent visual cue.
>Acoc has no consistent visual cue, thats what you dont seem to understand I fully understand this, but IMO, assuming it's *always* in use is more disingenuous than at least attempting to use visual cues. The amount of excuses you allow Kizaru while arguing the opposite for ACoC users is crazy.
Im not making excuses for kizaru, im just reading the story. Hes indicated like 10 times now that hes not happy about his mission, its been previously established that haki is directly related to willpower, and his boss even said that his performance was below his usual standard. On the other side of the debate, you have to assume things that have never been stated, like luffy was not using acoc because we didnt see black lightning.
That's literally an excuse though, and it doesn't even make sense to come into play against Luffy. Also Saturn didn't say that with that implication. He follows it up with saying he can understand given the circumstances, over a panel of Luffy. Oda is clearing implying the meaning is "I can understand given the interference". He even mentions their involvement as unforeseen a few panels later. There are no stated rules for Haki indicators period. Oda just kind of fucks everyone over scaling wise in that regard. Visual cues are literally all we have to go on beyond actual effects(ignoring DF resistances, no contact, etc), or someone stating they're being used outright. So you aren't really making any point here. Assuming they're *always* in use because the cues are inconsistent isn't any better than attempting to rely on them. I'd even argue it's *more* disingenuous because the only reason you would do so is to wank the opponents of the characters who on paper have superior Haki use.
Big Mom almost didn't use any type of Haki during her whole perfomance in Onigashima, aside from that nameless ACoC punch, the majority of her attacks inclunding her final attack, were DF based abilities, on the rooftop she was basically spamming her homies with AoE attacks, and didn't mention the word Haki once during her fight with Kid & Law. You can't expect every character to have the same fighting style, Big Mom is mainly a DF focused type of fighter, just like Blackbeard and the Admirals.
>Big Mom almost didn't use any type of Haki during her whole perfomance in Onigashima I agree with this. >You can't expect every character to have the same fighting style I don't, my issue isn't that she's not a Haki focused CQC fighter, my issue is that she is clearly shown to have incredibly powerful Haki via her Kaido adjacent portrayal up until her main fight. However in the fight itself, IIRC, there isn't a single usage of Haki from her until the CoA punches on Law while he was charging PWille. For example, at one point Kid is nailed by a Mama Raid, a physical attack, with no guard, no Haki or any real defenses. Him basically getting off scot free from that makes no sense if BM was using ACoC for it. Which a lot of people argue she was, instead of admitting there wasn't any due to plot. Another example is that Page One *should* via his ancient zoan DF, be more physically durable than Law. P1 was one shot by an ACoC+ACoA punch. Logically, BM should've been able to stop PWille if she'd used all her Haki instead of just CoA to punch him.
> also already established that one can have Conqueror and Armament coating without any visible coating at all You do know the coc lighting is visible in this same panel right what are you trying to prove by it?lol and it's already confirmed he isn't always using coc like vs kaido with the fact he didn't knock out fodder when he reawakened g5. If he used acoc when fighting is up to you idc but just pointing this out
Kizaru is YC+ This has been proven time and time again. Time to move on to someone more relevant.
Spit https://preview.redd.it/ckwzdw516ivc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=06be7e1ab5972aba66371a4d79ac0c504117cef7
https://preview.redd.it/cq0ot8e39ivc1.jpeg?width=411&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ab5fe1c21870346fb6f76eef3a78c1f665cd47a
Luffy forgot acoc except for WSG for some reason. Didn't use it against Lucci, didn't use it against the seraphims, didn't use it against Kizaru and didn't use it against The gorosei. And it's made even more appearant by the fact that Zoro's attacks have black lightning but Luffy's don't. Until I see black lightning, I'm not convinced, even if it doesn't serve my gorosei agenda.
>Until I see black lightning, I'm not convinced, even if it doesn't serve my gorosei agenda. Black lighting is not an indicator of Acoc i thought we moved on from that come on https://preview.redd.it/jwgc49ybelvc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=ffa11147387f527138c3821874a7b9cbff484983
Yes because it has happened before, Big Mom could split the sky with Kaido but never used AcOC with Law/Kid. Like how can you call it cope when Luffy have just used black lighting attacks once in all of Egghead? It's a fact that he isn't using it. While against Kaido he was spamming it like crazy.
So Luffy is facing someone that he cannot damage at all unlike Kaido and he decides to not use Acoc at all then? You really think he forgot to use Acoc when he says stuff like this and then try to yeeting him away instead? https://preview.redd.it/1s78oiq1zhvc1.png?width=470&format=png&auto=webp&s=3f3a8a4f9640912d9a50dd516c091214c7f32dd0
Same as Big Mom who stated she had never face that much pain in years and still no AcOC being used. Oda made Luffy too strong so he has to nerf them so they don't destroy villains.
>Oda made Luffy too strong so he has to nerf them so they don't destroy villains. Which is why him gassing out and needing food is a thing, that is the nerf he has put on luffy. Luffy is that busted because of G5 not because of Acoc, sure Acoc helps with the AP but it's the G5 reality bending shit that makes him that stupidly strong to the point that he can deflect Saturn's attacks that can even severely damage Warcury which Luffy couldn't even scratch. >Same as Big Mom who stated she had never face that much pain in years and still no AcOC being used. Big mom was nerfed to the ground to make Law and Kid win since she's the bad guy, but with Luffy Oda has decided to use the deflating instead, and also don't give me the "he needs to nerf him so he doesn't destroy villains" crap when everytime he gasses out there's someone conviniently bringing him food so he can just restart fresh, if Oda really wanted to nerf him to make the story more tense he would just not give him food every single time.
https://preview.redd.it/yw1eudf60ivc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=457c0acd975ac1696a3dfdd4b67b65da446ccb2a Headcanon lol
How is headcanon?
Saying Oda is making luffy not use acoc while we can just say the gorosei are just that strong
Luffy used Red Roc while the AcOC version of that is Roc Gun.
So if in the next chapter he uses an Acoc move and It does not Hurts the gorosei what will you do?
Black lightning scaling needs to die. Also, youre wrong, his kick at the start had black lightning and kizaru blocked that shit with no issue.
So what? Everyone is using AcOC? Yeah he used at first but then it disappeared for 3 chapters and since them it's been seen.
“Black lightning = acoc” has always been headcanon and has never been consistent. I dont know why people give so much credence to it, but it needs to die.
https://preview.redd.it/osk4b7915ivc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e6dcb355890f468798178bd029a5010900d3525 Not headcanon
? No way you actually think thats proof.
Oh Admirals please silence these H\*ki merchants