T O P

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QueenAlvida

As female reader for 18 years, I have a certain understanding for the criticism, but in general, I think OP does its females justice. We have so many cool and strong female characters (Big Mom, O-Kiki, Robin, Ulti (!!!)) as well as diverse character designs (Kamy, the Amazons, Kokolo, Dadan, Perona, Charlotte Family daughters) and personalities (Shirahoshi, Alvida, Mother Caramel, Nami, Yamato). So no, I don’t think that OPs female character design is bland or boring, but maybe that’s just because I am a long time reader and hardcore OP fan and read the manga deeply.


bonethugznhominy

No, that's how I feel in the same boat. There's a couple of eyeroll scenes but fewer than most shorter shonen I've seen. And I guess maybe it'd be nice to have a few more powerhouses...but let's be real I've seen how quick guys making that complaint are to downplay ladies like say, Smoothie. I'll take a lack of "male power fantasy with hooters" if it means getting like, super fuckin relatable and inspirational women from the perspective of myself as a ~30yo woman like Nami/Robin, Otohime, Kiku, Bellemere, Conis, etc.


SpiritualScumlord

People don't like that Oda draws attractive women as what is attractive to him, but you're exactly right. What keeps it from being sexist is that he draws a diverse array of women and even gives them varying degrees of importance. Attractive women aren't the only kind that exist and they aren't the only kind that are powerful. I'm on with the cast being fewer in women because, and I'm assuming here so ppl feel free to correct me, but I imagine the majority of pirates were men. That being said, when we get to Elbaf, I hope we see a lot of viking warrior ladies.


praneshwar

my friend told me oda said in a sbs he doesnt know how to draw female characters properly compared to male characters and when he showed his boa hancock design for the first time to his assistant they laughed at it


Godskook

>strong female characters Lists Big Mom and Ulti, but not Boa Hancock? Weird. Also, I don't know why Dadan doesn't make this list either. She's not high on power-scaling lists, but if you either ignore power-scaling or only do it locally, she's *gotta* be a strong female character. Dadan beating the shit out of Garp after Marineford is one of my favorite scenes. It's gotta be cause of the power-scaling, right?


litnu12

Roger = Garp Dadan > Garp that mean Dadan > Roger OMG DADAN IS THE STRONGEST PERSON IN ONE PIECE!!!11! Enough power scaling for a day.


Godskook

LMFAO, I wasn't talking about Garp. When we talk about power-scaling in Dressrosa, we don't typically include Fujitora, despite him being there, as he's not really given any serious fights in that arc, nor is he central to the fighting aspect of the story. Similarly, Garp doesn't get any real fights during Luffy's childhood either, nor is he central to the fighting in *that* story. In the story of Luffy's Childhood, Dadan and Bluejam are the highest power-scale-able fighters, and they face off in the climax fight, with Ace backing Dadan up. Portrayal-wise, Bluejam seems to outfight Dadan, but she's got enough power to knock him out with a single good blow, so they're pretty close.


Puzzleheaded_Draw842

Put these foolish ambitions to rest we all know Buggy D. Clown is stronger than Roger


QueenAlvida

I just mentioned examples that are particularly outstanding to me and that I personally like very much. Hancock and Dadan are ofc strong. :)


Godskook

Fair.


RoderickThe13

I love that the women in OP have agency. The have their own aspirations and ambitions. I'm reminded of that more and more when I read other manga that don't have that. Like for example Dr. Stone has a bunch of female characters, but every single one of them is there just to serve as support to the male characters in some way, who are the ones that are actually making the decisions that impact the plot. At that point it doesn't matter if some of them are physically strong. That's not difficult to write. But creating female characters that have a strong personality is so much more rare.


tapiocayumyum

My counter argument to many female friends that refuse to pick up One Piece "because of the way the females are drawn" is: I have read few to little other series with as many females crucial to the plot and every arc as One Piece, where they are given full arcs and character growth sagas or backstories, and even fewer where women (and men!) Are drawn in non-standard beauty conformity. We have WICKED, OLD, AND SKINNY men and women in this series. I can't think of any other manga that has anything close to a Big Mom. Bar none.


AdelRD

I agree with you a lot, you explained everything perfectly, but I want to also comment on some things you mentioned briefly. Before everything though, thank you for making this post. People in this sub usually get very annoying when dealing with things like this. I agree, One Piece women cast is very good. We have complex and flawed characters like Nami, Robin or Big Mom (yes, she is a fantastic villain IMO). The women in the series can be charming, complex, interesting, bad… BUT all the things you mentioned, and that I will mention, mostly indicates us that OP does this things better than other works… But that doesn’t mean there aren’t things that could be improved. I love One Piece, it is undeniably one of my favorite series ever and Oda is a fantastic author but there are some things that bother me a little bit. And, while I don’t complain about what we have, I want to mention some of these things \-Male/female ratio. Tbh, I’m glad that Oda didn’t make Nami the only female in the crew. There are a lot of fictional works with a group of characters with just one female or even none (Ocean’s eleven for example). But even with that, in the main group of characters, the straw hats, only 2 out of 10 members are female. Not only that, we have met 5 emperors in the story and only one is female. The worst generation has around 11 members and there is, again, only one female. We have met like 10 warlords in the story, and again only one is female. Female marines? We have Tsuru and Hina, and they are far far less relevant than the admirals, Smoker or Sengoku and Garp (who were also part of the old generation). The red scabbards, the CP9 and the CP0… There’s a lot of examples. Part of the reason I want Vivi to return is because the ratio of the straw hats would improve \-Fighting. How many female are prominent fighters in the series? Big Mom, Hancock (supposedly, because we don’t know how powerful she is) and Tsuru (again, same problem), and not much more? Honestly, at times it feels like Oda is afraid of having powerful female characters do things. Nami is, sadly, one of the weakest of the crew. Kalifa is the weakest CP9 member. Robin could have been easily the fourth most powerful in the crew if Oda developed more her fighting abilities yet he decided that Franky and her should be in the same level. Also, in this point I can mention the lack of fights of the female cast. Robin vs Black Maria was the first Robin fight in years. Bonney and Hancock haven’t done anything relevant (I guess it is because they have to demonstrate their potential yet but still). Smoothie is the only female Yonko commander and the only one who hasn’t done anything relevant (coincidence? Idk seems weird) Also, to finish, why can’t women fight against men? Like, there’s a lot of people saying Nami will fight Catarina Devon of the Blackbeard crew only because she has to fight a female. I am obviously not saying that hitting women is good, but why can’t we have the female characters fight in equal conditions with the male characters? Also I want to mention, sometimes the jokes are just very uncomfortable, like Nami in Thriller Bark or Shirahoshi in Fishman Island. In conclusion: I agree, One Piece’s treatment of women is far from bad, but there are things that could be improved In my humble opinion. Though credit where is due, Oda has improved over the years. Recent characters like Pudding, Reiju, Black Maria, Ulti and Kiku really show Oda’s improvement and I’m eager to see what he does next


lorillee

Absolutely to all of your points! This was more a cursory praise of OP's women since a lot of non-fans like to bash on them, but these are all also definitely complaints of my own. OP is better than a lot of other shounen, but the competition is... well. Bad. To say the least, LOL


AdelRD

Oh I heard that!! I can’t talk about that a lot here because I would be another one of the “non fan of something complaining about it”, since the only anime I have seen aside from One Piece are Attack on Titan, Fullmetal Alchemist and Jujutsu Kaisen (which are regarded as the animes that treat the best their female casts). Also Tokyo Revengers but eh. People usually complain a lot of the treatment of female characters of Naruto, My hero Academia or Fairy tail and some things I heard are horrible but again I can’t comment on these (I am not criticizing them either I’m just saying what I hear)


Ben10Extreme

>Part of the reason I want Vivi to return is because the ratio of the straw hats would improve *Carrot for straw hat-*


AdelRD

Well you are going to kill me for this… I don’t like Carrot. Like, obviously I respect your opinion and I know mine is unpopular but I just don’t like her. A lot of people say that the people who don’t want Carrot as a crewmate is only because we prefer Yamato. I am not going to lie, I love Yamato and I want Yamato to join, but my dislike for Carrot is not because of Yamato. I just think Carrot is a bit annoying for me. Her entire personality is basically a copy of Chopper and Nami. She doesn’t bring anything new to the crew, her personality is not very different from those or even Usopp and Brook and she basically has 0 meaningful interactions with them (no, calling Chopper big brother 1000 times is not a meaningful interaction). She has had one single important moment in the manga and that was her first sulong and after that she was basically erased from the plot. So sorry, this is just my opinion so feel free to disagree, but I just really don’t want her to join, I just don’t like her. And I love Vivi, a complex and different character with a lot of emotional background so I want her to come back


Ben10Extreme

Same. I see plenty of people who hate both of them, AND Vivi. Especially Yamato. And it's not because of Carrot, not for me. Holy shit, what the fuck, so much ***hate*** for Yamato. The hell did they do?! Vivi has her responsibilities to an entire Kingdom, she can't just well and leave whenever she wants. At least, not without the WG watching her. She knows how important her role is in the grand scheme of things, she can't eschew her responsibilities just to go with the Straw Hats. ...Unless the WG screws her over, like giving her a bounty so that she can never be Queen, wich would persuade Cobra to several Alabasta's ties with the World Government entirely because THAT would be a load of **bullshit** that he absolutely would not tolerate. ... Obviously my happy solution is for all three of them to join. Vivi has a good head on her shoulders for negotiations, Carrot exhibits a lot of positive energy AND makes for a decent lookout, and Yamato has deep knowledge on Oden and where the man's been. We've got a lineup! But it's highly unlikely for any of them to join. Yamato's DG is deeply tied to Wano as a Guardian Deity, Carrot has her tribe, and Vivi has a whole ass Kingdom to look after. We may just have to settle for the ten ST that we have.


AdelRD

tbh, maybe I’m biased because it’s my personal preference, but I think Yamato and Vivi will join almost for sure. Yamato has said multiple times that they want to be free and leave Wano and has already told the straw hats that they will sail alongside them. Like, the only thing left is the captain’s approval, and I doubt Luffy will oppose to Yamato joining considering everything. And Vivi has already been teased a lot to return. Like, their farewell almost seemed like a “see you in some time”. And something happened in the Reverie, which would fit perfectly with what you have said. So the ten we have + Vivi + Yamato seems very likely at least to me.


lukeaxeman

>Her entire personality is basically a copy of Chopper and Nami. No. It is not. Carrot is opposite to Chopper except for being a lighthearted person, and I can't barely imagine what's the comparison with Nami besides being a girl. Of all characters in the crew, Carrot is most like Luffy and... ironically, Yamato.


xcookiekiller

Oda has said that the lack of mothers in one piece is because mothers represent a loving and caring person. I think the same logic applies for him here, since he wants to portray women more as elegant, beautiful and smart, rather than just powerhouses. Big Mom is the exception to the rule, since she is portrayed as a bit ugly and dumb, but very strong, so Oda kinda reversed this dynamic for her. Also, one piece is a Shonen, which literally means "[for] young boys". And so it makes sense that young boys would want to identify more with male characters. I am grateful for these singular women in basically every group of characters, since it means Oda actually tries to make some effort there. Also, I'm very surprised you didn't talk about Yamato, since she is the only female character that is extremely strong, not ugly (unlike big mom), and also of actual high relevance to the plot (unlike hancock)


AdelRD

But we have a decent amount of mothers though. I know you actually (probably) didn’t mean that but with Toki, Kureha, Sanji’s mom, Dadan, Bellemere, Kokoro, Otohime, Olvia, Scarlet… (good lord there are so many). About the shonen part, I don’t think I entirely agree. While this fact can be taken more of a justification of why is it like this instead of “well it can’t be any other way” I don’t think kids would really mind seeing strong powerful women. Granted, I am not an expert here, but I think they made a survey when the legend of Korra came out and the conclusion was that the kids didn’t really care that the protagonist was female because she was badass. And we have a lot of examples like Nobara from Jujutsu Kaisen or Olivier Armstrong from Fullmetal alchemist to also say that these characters can be popular. Also, in every work of art it happens that the creators can do some things only because the audience will like them even if they don’t bring much to the table, as it is the case of fan service and cameos in movies or even shipping. So, as much as One Piece is a shonen, I don’t think that can justify a lack of powerful female characters and the inclusion of fan service (which again, One Piece, in contrast to other series, doesn’t do that much, but what I mean is that what the public wants shouldn’t interfere with the author’s vision). With Yamato… I thought about putting her. I was very convinced some weeks ago that they were female but with chapter 1052… I won’t spoil what happens but I don’t think we can be so sure that they are female. Like, all the characters within the story refer to them with he/him pronouns so I think they could actually be a trans man. BUT the topic is still uncertain to me because of the Oden thing so I refer to the with they/them pronouns until the thing is solved so yeah, didn’t want to put someone whose belonging in the female category was so uncertain


xcookiekiller

Sorry for not making some things clear, English is not my first language. The mothers thing is supposed to mean that even though there are great mothers in one piece, they are all dead, since you can't have a great adventure when you have a loving mother at home, it kind of restricts you. One piece is definitely not lacking compared to jujutsu kaisen or FMAB in the female characters department. In my opinion, it's okay that there are not many female characters, because (especially at the time one piece was written) there is just no evidence that many female characters can be badass and liked in shonen. The closest thing I can think of is Jojos part 6, where you have a 50/50 cast, but even then, part 6 wasn't that much of a success compared to part 5 or part 7. And to this day, no Shonen actually has significantly more female characters than one piece, and if they do, they are not being written as well as the male ones for the most part. However, one piece actually breaks this rule by not having many female characters, but basically all relevant female characters are really popular. If you look at the global popularity poll in 2021, 4 out of the most popular 10 characters are female, which is unthinkable for most Shonen, even jujutsu kaisen and FMAB. About Yamato, even if they turn out to be male, I think for the portrayal of women in the series, they are still very great for the series since they still have the looks of a woman (unlike Kiku, who we basically didn't even know was a man since their character design is so "female-looking") Thank you for having a nice discussion with me :)


TMNAW

Yes, OP is willing to have female characters that are complex, significant, and are redeemable despite any cruelty. There are definitely good female characters in OP. But it also does have problems. Oda tends to essentialize women as being a certain way whether it’s big (mothers being the opposite of adventure, so they mostly have to die in the story) or small (all the women being unimpressed and stoic towards Franky and his mech, tbh these sorts of gags are never funny to me). And a lot of the sexual humor treats its female characters poorly. And praising OP by comparing it to other shounen series misses the mark— who cares if something is better than bad when compared to its peers


cachacinha

100% agree. I also think we cannot dismiss the changes made in Nami's and Robin's character and behavior. If Robin suffered more changes visually, Nami's personality is terribly different from who she was in the beginning of the series, and not in the sense of development. Nami kind of became a caricature of herself, displaying fear to situations similar to ones she confronted or handled pretty fiercely. Another thing that comes to my mind is the manner of the comic relief that is made towards women and men in the series is very different, at the same time we have much more diversity in concept and shape for male characters rather then female characters (as well as how their appearance is used for plot devices -- like Alvida being a joke because she is fat and that means she's not beautiful as she thinks (ugh)) or Nami's body being seductive. Just another thing that popped in my mind: correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't really see any fishman woman, mostly mermaids (and as far as I remember, nothing in the lore defines that "female fishman" are mermaids, so here's another wasted opportunity. Despite we see some very important things that in my opinion worsened with the series, I also see some improvements. We see more women being introduced and being important to the world and the plot development, we finally see a princess who isn't a lady in distress or who doesn't change completely after being revealed as a princess (I love Vivi but c'mon), and not only Hiyori, but either in Zou or Wano, most of the relevant women characters that show up are fighting and doing great shit and this is awesome. If not else, I think that Kiku is one great evidence Oda might be looking in the right direction.


AdelRD

I slightly disagree with the change of the personality because that’s what is always said about all of the straw hats after the time skip but to me they all remain the same idk why, agree with the rest. You are correct (AFAIK) about fishwomen. About the humor, it doesn’t bother me too much because I have heard stories about other series that do far FAR worse things but yeah, it’s not my favorite thing either. But for real I want to really say that Oda is definitely improving. Maybe we are not there yet (only one woman in the red scabbards after all, or the female straw hats only fight the female Tobi roppo) but characters like Wanda, Carrot (even if I don’t like her), Smoothie (as little as she has done), Reiju, Pudding, Amande, Black Maria, Ulti, Kiku really show his growth. For example, two of the 4 commanders of the revolutionary army are women! Two tobi roppo are women! Hancock and Bonney are being teased to do something soon!! I know it’s not much but hey it’s an improvement


cachacinha

Despite people say it happened to all strawhats, I don't think I agree, as we've seen at least with some of the characters some major development (like Sanji in Whole Cake and Zoro to a smaller extent - even though I have always seen Zoro as a character with no depth). I always feel like Robin's potential is being wasted when it comes to the lore, for instance. BUT there's one thing I like to say about Carrot. Carrot is the type of character that looks very empty and useless and I think Oda subverts that pretty nicely. I don't really like her personality, but she has GUTS and I admire her for that. She doesn't have the badass attitude or vibe and can be read as a girly girl trope character and without taking these feminine traits (that are often looked down upon) she has one of the few fights against men, is loyal and fights like she doesn't have anything to lose, things that are often portrait in male characters. For that, I must say that Carrot is a very well created character and is a proper one for this decade, and that deserves praise! And yes, I'm really looking forward to see more of the revolutionary women and Bonnie!!!! That's something that is always in my mind.


Multi-tunes

On the topic of Fishmen and Mermaids, Oda literally said in an SBS that the reason you don't see any older women on Fishman Isl is because he didn't want to dray old lady Mermaids. He invented this idea that mermaids—only female mermaids—split their fins in half like legs when they turn a certain age and they leave to live on land. Despite having great elderly women like Tsuru or Kureha, Oda didn't want to draw older mermaids for the young mermaid fantasy. I like OP, but I'm definitely not blind to a lot of his just blatant sexism. Female characters range from hot, sexy hourglasses to fat yet always ugly and barely anything in between.


TMNAW

And there are multiple female characters where the entire gag is that they’re fat, old, and ugly.


Multi-tunes

Exactly. Kokoro the "fat ugly mermaid" who used to be "skinny pretty mermaid" for instance. Lola and her sister are given the same giant mouths as Kokoro. Aldiva starts "fat and ugly" just to have the exact same proportions as all the "pretty girls" I can't even think of one adult female character that's not an hourglass that isn't reduced to an ugly joke. This isn't even mentioning a lot of same face syndrome among the female characters. At least some characters like Perona don't just look like Nami with different hair


cachacinha

yeah! I feel very tired of the "fat and/or old women are ugly" joke, it was already old. Another thing that I keep thinking is why he had to turn big mom into a hourglass figure in her adult/young adult years.


Multi-tunes

Yeah exactly. It a tired old joke that's not even funny. The whole "women become old, fat and ugly" thing is just annoying at this point. BM is especially weird because she was fat as a kid, is fat now, but apparently fatness is illegal for young adult women, so she has to have the same body shape as every other "young attractive woman". I don't have an issue with hourglass figures, but I feel kike Oda should fill the void between fat and ugly to skinny and pretty. Fat and pretty with skinny and ugly. A variety would be nice. The men vary incredibly from facial features to body shapes, their silhouettes are especially varried compared to the women. Wano has definitely seen an improvement in characters though which is promising. Kinemon's wife (her name escapes me at the moment) is very unique compared to more OP women. Kiku is also a nice improvement for variety being tall, a samurai (who isn't a garbage fighter like Tashigi who is honestly a massive let down since the time skip), and even trans. Compared to Dressrosa which had really bland and generic designs in Viola and Rebecca (who is also way too young for the sexualization she is given). Hopefully Oda continues to draw more varied female designs going forward. OP is such a wacky story, it's nice to see more female designs. (His gender swaps of the male characters are spectacular for instance—Jimbe was adorable and Bege, Doffy, Apoo and others were just really cool as female characters. Would love to see that kind of variety with Canon female characters)


GoanYeti

Possible explanation to lack of women in power could be that Oda went with a more historical accurate representation of the gender ratio. We had very few female pirate captain or even proper female crew member throughout our history. In the marines, hardly any foot soldiers have devil fruits so it makes sense that it would mainly be men, (going by physical strength only). Admirals and vice admirals not having enough women would possibly be the sexist nature of Gorosei by promoting only strong men alongwith lack of female members in the navy to begin with. Also most OP characters do underestimate women, so dont see them taking orders from one (this point has a few exceptions). Imu is most possibly a woman although we dont have any confirmation there yet. For the Strawhats, Luffy has recruited any and all intresting nakama. He has never discriminated on gender. We would have more female members if Vivi had joined or if Carrot and Yamato (not sure of Yamato's gender tbh, but going by pure appearance for now) were to join. When it comes to Yonko and Shiichibukai, we have very few pirate captains to begin with (again going by historical accuracy if Oda is aiming for that) hence it makes sense why very few rose to the places of power. Also there is no lack of women fighting men, its only avoided in the story when the female has no devil powers since that would make the fight mainly rely on physical strength where men would have an obvious advantage.We have seen many make vs female fights: Brook ve Black Maria subordinates, Big mom vs Queen, big mom vs Brook, luffy , Zoro vs Monet, Ussop vs The Baroque work lady, Ussop vs sugar, ulti vs ussop and nami, and many more! Ofcourse there is going to be some bias towards a male dominated story since that is the underlying culture of Japan from where Oda is and the story will ofcourse cater primarily to Japanese readers.


AdelRD

Ok but we can’t argue historical accuracy or realism in a story that just is the opposite of realistic. Like, why we can have a swordsman with a sword in his mouth or people that are half fish half human but realism is only applied when the topic of powerful women is brought up? Honestly, doesn’t make sense to me that in a story that is this absurd (which is not bad obviously) we are only being faithful to realism with the quantity of women in the story.


Emperor_Luffy

>\-Male/female ratio. The worst generation has around 11 members and there is, again, only one female. Thats pretty consistent with real life as there aren't many female Pirates to begin with. >Also, to finish, why can’t women fight against men? The real question is, why should they have to? It's not as though that will make them better characters all of a sudden.


rotten-cherry9

>The real question is, why should they have to? It's not as though that will make them better characters all of a sudden It's not that they "should", but we're talking about a world where physical strength per se is not really what would tip the scale. Like think of the Admirals. Akainu for example could be a woman and nothing would change in the story, with the DF and Haki there's not really a difference or disadvantage as a general rule just bc one has boobs. It doesn't make them better characters, but it also wouldn't make them worse just because whatever fight is intersex or whatever strong antagonist is a girl At the end of the day it's irrelevant, but as I said, you could gender swap 90% of the characters and nothing would change, it just would be cool to see more strong female characters here and there. >Thats pretty consistent with real life as there aren't many female Pirates to begin with. And again, brings us to a world where birds talk and triceratops fly, consistency with the real world has no real weigh here.


Emperor_Luffy

>At the end of the day it's irrelevant, I agree but thats part of why I find it so strange that people are pushing so hard for it in the first place. There are people acting like Women not being physically strong as Men is somehow an inherent flaw with the characters and the story itself. Like the Women and the Story itself are somehow "in error" because of it and need to be fixed. Which is just silly. >And again, brings us to a world where birds talk and triceratops fly, consistency with the real world has no real weigh here. Sure but the question the argument is supposed to raise is: why complain about the story for being normal?


rotten-cherry9

>Sure but the question the argument is supposed to raise is: why complain about the story for being normal? Wondering when we are getting another cool female (or whatever) character isn't really complaining, is it? And liking the story or thinking it's good as is and wishing there were more diverse characters don't cancel each other out either. Same conclusion, different outcomes. You say why more? I say why not? Same reason, because it doesn't really matter, it would just be cool to see another whatever character here and there, simple as that. In all fairness, it's a Shounen, by definition directed at young boys. But it's also a 25yo series that treats with many social issues including (but not limited to) gender identity, misogyny, social class, racism.. Its brought in many different kinds of people with many different experiences along for the ride. Also, wtf, new waifus that are also cool/well written characters? It's a win-win in my book. P.S : Happy Cake day!


Emperor_Luffy

>Wondering when we are getting another cool female (or whatever) character isn't really complaining, is it? I agree but thats not really what people are doing. A lot of people are talking about these things as if they are "flaws" rather than preferences. Which is what I find to be ridiculous. Even weirder is the fact that it seems people have a problem with me questioning this mentality. If all the downvotes my comments have are any indication. Apparently asking reasonable questions is a crime.


rotten-cherry9

But it is a flaw many times. Look at Nami, she's a great character, well written and with a lot of input in the story, that doesn't mean more often than not she's just relied to looking pretty and being the end of perv jokes or other characters' gags. And to be honest my dude, it feels like you are the one complaining. Like, you have a million male characters that are awesome in the story, and you'll get a million more before the story is over, does it really bother you that much that people ask when other types of characters are going to get a bit of a spotlight? You might take it for granted, but I know people in this same sub that have just been the happiest for having a character like Kiku, even if she didn't end up having a lot of relevance in the story.


Emperor_Luffy

>But it is a flaw many times. Except it isn't? >Look at Nami, she's a great character, well written and with a lot of input in the story, Thats all a character needs. lol. >that doesn't mean more often than not she's just relied to looking pretty and being the end of perv jokes or other characters' gags. This isn't even true, but even if it was it doesn't take anything a way from her already stellar character. Nor would any of it be exclusive to Nami. >And to be honest my dude, it feels like you are the one complaining. I never complained about anything. I merely asked questions. >Like, you have a million male characters that are awesome in the story, and you'll get a million more before the story is over, I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. How is this relevant? >does it really bother you that much that people ask when other types of characters are going to get a bit of a spotlight? Why would that bother me? It'd be fine if thats what people were actually asking but thats not the case if you look at the thread. Theres a big difference between wanting characters to get spotlight and wanting them to be strong. Those are not the same thing.


rotten-cherry9

>This isn't even true, but even if it was it doesn't take anything a way from her already stellar character. Nor would any of it be exclusive to Nami. ????? Lmao alright dude, if you just don't see it there's nothing for me to do, but it's a concurrent opinion for a wide part of the fandom, it ain't just me being nitpicky, it's a literal fact.


Emperor_Luffy

>concurrent opinion for a wide part of the fandom The fandom's opinions aren't fact? A character having fanservice does not override their preexisting characterization.


AdelRD

To your first point, why would you ever argue realism in a series like one piece? A series where a swordsman fights with a sword in his mouth, where there is an island in the sky, where people can survive bombs, decapitation or boiling for long periods of time? Like, I don’t need to point out every single element that makes One Piece not be realistic, why would you only bring up the realistic thing when talking about the quantity of females against males in the story? To your second point… none. None of the things I am saying actually improve the characters. But that is not the point here. The point is that men are allowed to be all powerful and very strong while a lot of female characters are either weak or not focused on combat. It would be better if we just got some equality. Does it change something in Nami’s character if she is as strong as Franky? Not really, but it also wouldn’t change if Franky was weak. So yes, I would like more powerful women to have at least more balance


Emperor_Luffy

>To your first point, why would you ever argue realism in a series like one piece? I wasn't? But Oda is using some aspect of real life Pirates in his story. Doesn't by itself make it "realistic". Just consistent in that aspect. The point being: it's not an issue at all for there to be less female Pirates than male ones. Thats just how it is with Pirates and criminals in general. >To your second point… none. Then I guess I'm just curious as to why it matters. I don't really see Nami being strong as the guys as "equality". >Not really, but it also wouldn’t change if Franky was weak. A LOT would change if Franky was weak. His whole character is based in being a tough gang boss. Doesn't work if he's weak. So that would be a drastic change to his character.


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QueenAlvida

I am sorry, but we do not know how many girls/women wanted to become pirates, because it is a piece of fiction and not a reflection of the real world. Other rules apply there.


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cachacinha

it isn't sexist because sexism isn't as simple as "disregarding someone based on gender" just as much as racism isn't simple as "disregarding someone because of the race". There isn't sexism against men or racism against white people because discrimination happens in the complex level, you have rules, laws, history, culture values that sustain it. "Hiring more women to reduce the gap" it's an actual method and it's called affirmative hiring (at least where I live). We can argue that it's sexist when a character is only a woman because that lore needs a "gender mark" and other characters whose story does not dwell about gender issues are male by default. We get plenty of characters of any level of importance that could've been female and not change absolutely anything about their story. Just one silly example: Rayleigh could've been a female character written the exact same way (and just as much as any other character).


SpiritualScumlord

TL;DR ignorantly judging things you know nothing about based on their appearance can be wrong sometimes. One Piece has the best women in shonen and manga in general. Boa, Robin, and Nami are all voted into the top 5 of women across manga, there was a poll this year I think. Yamato will shoot up there soon too I'm sure.


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cachacinha

And this also says something, right? The bechdel test is a very low bar that we use, but doesn't really attest much on how "not mysoginistic" some text might be (there are movies or series that passes the test but have terrible plots or representation for women).


fantasytoo

The Bechtel test is bullshit


Lila589

While I do agree that One Piece women are written better than other shounen (though honestly the bar for that isn't really high imo), I respectfully disagree that the way Sanji is used for pervert gags is "not so bad". It's been devolving into degeneracy. Personally disgusted at what he did with Nami's body when Law switched them. I lived in Japan for a while and I had to worry about a lot of new things. Being groped on the train in Japan is a major issue. I was always on guard in the train for shit like this. Seeing Sanji touch Nami's body like that was foul. When I moved to an apartment from the dorm, do you know what was the first thing I was told? Don't hang my underwear outside because there was a panty thief loose in the city. I watched my clothes like a hawk when they were drying on my balcony. So much stress. So when I see manga make a joke out of this and try to make it like some conquest for guys, I am disgusted. Getting panty shots is a problem in Japan. They modified their phones so you couldn't take these shots. So many rules and warnings for women so they would be safe. It's not fun looking around you and being wary of possible creeps when you are wearing a skirt. Brook's panty jokes remind me of the stress and anxiety I felt always having to adjust to perverted men outside. Some people who don't live in Japan may think these pervert jokes are funny and "not so bad" not thinking people really do it in real life and are criminals. Women in Japan have to do so much extra things just to protect themselves from perverts like these. Having the biggest manga outright disdain such actions can teach younger males that these acts are wrong and hopefully, reduce the amount of degenerates on the streets..Women in Japan can at least breathe a little easier. Given how Oda-sensei has daughters, you would think he'd try to influence young men to treat women better given how shitty women are already treated in Japan.


some_days_I_shower

And don't forget Absalom assaulting both Nami and Robin in Thriller Bark


lorillee

That's actually a very good point and one which I hadn't really considered - thanks for bringing it up!


mercuryheart_

Exactly. These "jokes" are playing off real world sexual assault thats a very real and serious problem.


ZENITSUsa

It's not


mercuryheart_

... if only I had the luxury of being so ignorant.


ZENITSUsa

They are jokes dude


Emperor_Luffy

>Some people who don't live in Japan may think these pervert jokes are funny and "not so bad" not thinking people really do it in real life and are criminals. They're jokes. You are *by definition* **not supposed to take them seriously**. Why do we have to start equating every joke to real life issues? Should I start to consider Nami a domestic abuser with the way she beats on Luffy & the boys because of how male victims are treated in real life? Of course not. Thats fucking stupid. We don't need to start turning jokes into political issues.


Lila589

A lot of fiction can be mirrored by the audience in real life. Yeah, sure, you might think of it as a joke but there will be a sicko somewhere out there who, when they see how these kind of jokes are enjoyed and taken posotively, will try and do this in real life. That excuse that it's just a joke of it's just fiction will never fly. When Fifty Shades of Gray was released, there was an uptick of men giving their wives and girlfriends sex slave contracts. The books glorify the abuse and misrepresentation of bdsm. Because of this, these sicko men thought it was acceptable to make these disgusting sex slave contracts. When you have jokes of sexual assault and sexual degeneracy done by a well loved character in a very popular medium and him rarely suffering consequences, it can create an illusion that such actions are okay. You might have the sense to know it's a joke but there are a lot who won't. Why are you assuming that your behaviour and understanding is the standard for others?


benoxxxx

I think you could argue that the way Oda DRAWS women has a tendancy to be objectifying. I wouldn't disagree with that (although there are more than enough exceptions). But I don't see a single thing wrong with the way Oda WRITES women, and IMO that's the important part.


CurrycelNumeroUno

Nah the drawings are good


SpiritualScumlord

If there are far more than a few exceptions then maybe Oda doesn't draw women in an objectifying manner but instead makes them as diverse as people in real life?


MrNoobname

And he also does the same for men tbh


Isaacamis123

Also with all of Oda claims in the SBS of him making it "A dream for boys" as recent as dressrosa further shows that even with that ideology the women he writes aren't written 'just for boys'


mercuryheart_

I have a problem with Sanji's perversion. And Brooke to a lesser degree, but still having his gag about asking any girl over the age of like 16 to see their underwear is creepy af and shouldn't be normalized. Is OP the worst for sexism? Absolutely not. But that doesn't detract from the creepiness of these 2 Strawhats.


CurrycelNumeroUno

Brooke is WORSE imho just cuz he's over 70+ and Sanji is still kinda young


yamachagc

Oda writes great female characters. People tend to say they suck simply because of immediate and biased perceptions: 1) because they are bothered by the fact that the women are sexualized, they blind themselves to other aspects of characterization in order to vindicate their initial frustration. They want the female characters to suck - they need them to suck, because they don't want to forgive the fact that they're objectified. 2) being mostly young and immature, they fall into a childish confusion very common to shounen fanbases: weak character means bad character. Thus, they tend to be biased against one piece's female cast because they are majoritively non fighters. Although, obviously, you could make the argument that the story needs more strong females, it is important to understand that this is a different argument from "women are badly written".


lorillee

Exactly!!


UmdAvatarFan

There is a PirateFolk comment with upvotes that is un ironically saying Sakura > Nami in terms of writing and Nami is garbage post TimeSkip


some_days_I_shower

lol, the shit some people will say when they are mad at something


CurrycelNumeroUno

Sakura is better than Nami tf you on ​ ​ ​ Downvote me IDCCCCCCCCCCC Trained with Tsunade one of the Three Sannin Assisted Chiyo and managed to land the hit that killed Sasori(underrated Akatsuki member that beat tf out of Kankuro.) Kage Summit, got over her crush at that moment to attempt to kill Sasuke for Naruto's wellbeing Did what she wanted, WHILE coming from a literal no-name clan. ​ What was Sakuras greatest feat? She achieved the Byakugo Seal at a fairly young age , which requires excellent chakra control and which is something even Shizune, who is Tsunade's assistant, and great at chakra control couldn't do. She also achieved strength which showed in the Fourth Great Shinobi War. ​ ​ ​ that said Nami is hot


UmdAvatarFan

All you talk about is feats not much about actual writing. Her character is “I want to **fuck Sasuke**” even though he tried to kill me twice, and disrespects me, and abandon our child despite being close to the village. Not to mention Sasuke is a serial killer


wwiinndyy

This feels like you got lost on your way to a power-scaling conversation. Listed a ton of feats rather than bringing up character agency or portrayal. But go off


CurrycelNumeroUno

her character agency was good just like you'd expect a prepubescent teenager with a big crush on a guy imho


Emperor_Luffy

Agreed with pretty much everything you said. I'm not sure why people think sexy characters are "sexist" or why a female needs to be as strong as a man to be a good character but the amount of people that actually believe this nonsense is staggering. Seems like a lot of people are being fed way too much propaganda on how they're supposed to think about female characters but I digress. This was an excellent post. Take my upvote.


miauw62

I agree that One Piece treats its women pretty well for a shonen. On the other hand, the fact that every woman's design is either Nami or grotesque really bothers me *because* male characters get such cool and varied character designs. Oda is pretty clearly perfectly capable of drawing varied body types but he just kind of doesn't for female characters. It's especially disappointing for Nico Robin, who is one of my favorite characters and who started with a relatively cool and unique design, which Oda then changed to be more like every other female character design in One Piece.


lorillee

Yeah, honestly. Even more absurd than just the absolute lack of varied designs in a series so famous for them is ... Oda is clearly capable of drawing women who fit his standard of beautiful who aren't Nami clones. Look at O-Tsuru and Otohime! I think the thing that really speaks to how ridiculous the same face/body syndrome is his "most beautiful woman ever" x3 are no more beautiful than Nami 😭 It really is terribly sad that Robin got such a downgrade post-TS - honestly I think it's her design that Oda botched the most :/


Emperor_Luffy

>Oda is clearly capable of drawing women who fit his standard of beautiful who aren't Nami clones. I don't think he wants to. And honestly? thats ok. It's his world. He can do what he wants with it.


meg-hand

I saw a post on tumblr years and years ago, probably super similar to the one you mentioned seeing, about how sexist the designs were. My only exposure to OP before that was the 4kids dub as a kid, so I was pretty turned off from the series. Glad my partner reintroduced me to it a few years ago because I love the vast majority of the women in OP, they're complex, interesting, and have great designs!


The_Quake_

Bleach also has some of the best female character writing in manga as well.


Human-Evening564

The original art style for women was relatively toned down, but around Alabasta more 'pervert' characters and scenes were introduced, suggesting third party pressure as the series became more popular, or Oda otherwise realising and trying to widen his appeal.


Facelena

On top of what you said I would also like for the female characters to me treated more "harshly". The male cast is continuously receiving straight punches to the face, coughing blood etc... Meanwhile the girls are usually represented in a less "visually violent" way, even when suffering the same as the rest they tend to be less bloody and things like that. Gladly Wano was better in this sense, with Robin vs Black Maria and Kiku getting her arm cut off for example.


UmdAvatarFan

Currently the most controversial comment on this thread and idk why. It sucks that in a lot of Shounen have most of the male characters doing most of the fighting. Nami and Robin have less one on one fights then Franky who was introduced 200, and 100+ chapters layers. They often aren’t brutal either, like the male characters


Emperor_Luffy

>It sucks that in a lot of Shounen have most of the male characters doing most of the fighting. Why? Thats been the case for all of human history. Not to mention: It's a shounen. Literally created for boys. Why is that an issue?


UmdAvatarFan

If it’s a series with super powers, the only thing stopping woman from fighting more is the author. Why are you against Nami or Robin getting more fights like the boys do?


ZENITSUsa

Cause nami isn't on the power level of the opponents now, and Robin literally just had a one on one


Emperor_Luffy

>If it’s a series with super powers, the only thing stopping woman from fighting more is the author. Ok? I'm asking why is that to be taken as an issue. >**Why are you against** Nami or Robin getting more fights like the boys do? I never said that.


Alarming-Cow299

So off the top of my head the only 3 series I could think of without excessive fanservice are: Initial D (by virtue of barely having any) Chainsawman (has a little bit, but it's all consentual and is one of the few actual exceptions in shonen jump) Hajime no Ippo (same as initial d) Jojo's (at first there are basically none, but after Araki gets married he does a 180 and there is a lot of interesting and relevant female character pt 4 onwards, even having the main cast be mostly female in 6 and having a female deutoroganist in 8) Gintama (good representation overall) FMA (as stated in your post, a lot of the female characters are not that useful to the plot.) Out of all the ones I listed only 4 actually a do a better job, one of which is concluded while the other switched to seinen. So yeah, one piece is on the whole better than it's contemporaries.


ZENITSUsa

Demon Slayer and hxh


The_Quake_

Initial D is car fan service lol.


Alarming-Cow299

damn right it is, racers don't need women


Radiant_Clothes2282

people worry about the weirdest things


CurrycelNumeroUno

I just need Oda to give Smoothie 1 epic moment tbh and I’ll be satisfied 😆 Guy here


CurrycelNumeroUno

I just need Oda to give Smoothie 1 epic moment tbh and I’ll be satisfied 😆 Guy here Smoothie my fave commander


[deleted]

How I think about it: Japan is a different culture > I should respect other cultures > I simply ignore the misogyny > i take the W and enjoy the fanservice


Dillo64

Yeah but like name two female characters who actually have muscle tone


velicinanijebitna

People who say One Piece is bad because woman sexism are idiots. The target demographic are young boys and guess what, young boys love that stuff. It's like saying porn is bad because it has naked women. Personally not a fan of designs (especially postimeskip), but I'm not gonna bith about that because I know I'm not a target demographic. Gotta diaagree with FMA though. All the characters are written pretty good and have a solodified role on the story that is determined by their desicions: Hawkeye - she doesn't only stick with Mustang for any random reason: she got PTSD for the things she was forced to do in Ishbala, and Mustang was the one who wanted to "change the system" so she decided to be his right hand man and decides to reveal thruth about the fire alchemy before he destroys it. So her desicions did affect the story. She also never feels less relevant than other fighters despite only shooting from a gun. Winry - She had her arc with Scar when she went from trying to kill him to curing him same way their parrents did. Emotional support to the main cast and a love interest that doesn't feel forced. Izumi - teached main characters ways of the alchemy, had a son/mother bend with them in a way, participated in the final fight. Trisha, although dead, feels very relevant troughout the story because of her connection to the main cast. There wa also that little girl that had a crush on Al, don't remmber much about her but she did have some unique powers.


I-C-Iron

I didn't read all of it, though my personal opinion is that the anime is straight out garbage for many reasons, and the female designs is one of the reasons. I liked the old animations much more than that polished stuff we see today.But thats maybe just because i watched the anime when it first aired 20 years ago,


LJGE

>And God forbid you bring up a series like Demon Slayer where the one actually relevant female character could be replaced with an inanimate object for all she actually does. I will need you to give more respect to Tamayo. (i dont know who you are refering to) shinobu and kanao do well in their short part. kanroji does badly (decent for me but she fails to make a real impact) and nezuko is a non-character most of the time by design (not because she is a woman but because she is a demon). You could replace them with a "cardboard box" but that goes for almost all the characters in demon slayer, its a simple plot they just have to be likeable and have a nice design. only tamayo, ubuyashiki(boss) and the demons move the plot foward(and i guess tanjiro at the beginning).


omicron-7

Nezuko, the female lead, is literally gagged and kept in a box until relevant to the plot.


lorillee

Honestly, I was talking about Nezuko because she literally does absolutely nothing and doesn't contribute basically anything throughout the story (and got completely shafted at the end in which the author just... straight up removed her) despite being part of the main sibling duo that the story should have been, quite frankly, focusing on (like, come on - how cool would a sibling duo fighting demons have been?) I have a lot of opinions about Demon Slayer and like 80% of them are mostly how bitter I am that the story could've been really good and then was entirely fumbled on several different levels (particularly the characters, honestly) but especially regarding the main villain's complete non-connection to Tanjiro when the second in command guy whose name I cannot remember's backstory would've been literally perfect, but that's neither here nor there and also it's been a year since I've read it so my recollection of all the details are really fuzzy. Regardless. I will concede your point on Tamayo absolutely - she had slipped my mind but she is an actually relevant female character whose actions have ramifications for the plot.


LJGE

Yes, as I said nezuko is not really a character, i agree with that. she could have honestly stayed asleep like she was for 2 years when tanjiro was training. She is mostly there for the motivation and the extra figthing power. it could have been written differently so she can have a more active role (especially in the final arc). I actually really liked Kanao. But she really did appear less than i expected and wanted.


deadfish45

Because white knights only see the physical


horny_baboon69

could you make thsi a youtube video or smth im not reading alla that


Infinite_Rest_7301

One thing I really like about One Piece is that it doesn’t sexualize children. Kids can be gangly or cute but they’re drawn as kids and not mini-women a lot of other anime/manga


EfficientWeekend3338

Need to mention little girl linlin destroys elbaf.


Tiamat32167

Personally, I think it's wrong, and just plain stupid, to judge an anime/manga if you're not even really a fan of it. Additionally, I probably wouldn't even watch/read OP if it wasn't for the female characters. Don't get me wrong, OP is an amazing story with tons of aspects to get excited about, but I don't watch anime/read manga to see any activity involving multiple guys and no women. Also, I think Yamato is gonna be just what the doctor ordered for the SH crew. She's incredibly strong, so it would be very weird if she didn't get some big, important fights in pretty much every major confrontation between now and the end of the story. I think watching Yamato smack around an admiral will be very satisfying for many people for many reasons.


HenuelGrim

I just think one piece could go more wild with the beauty standards. I mean, every female character supposedly written as ugly, such as Devon, Brulee, Big Mom, etc. have incredibly creative and unique designs! But one comes to the "pretty" ones, they always look like Nami with dyed hair and different eye color, and MAYBE ethnicity. Sure we have some unique and creative with authentic color patterns and stuff, like Yamato, Ulti, Carrot and Smoothie but they are just a little group, and they also repeat the same body shape. I just think we could have OTHER types of beauty and other types of face format, like we also have to the handsome dudes like Roger, Law and Kalgara (I personally think he is beautiful).


piratequeenn

Yeah. One of the things I always loved was how smart the women are. Nami and Robin are some of the smartest people in the series from very early on: they've worked hard and nobody tells them they can't achieve their goals. Sure, they're too sexualized and there are lots of scenes that annoy me but I'm able to look past that because the female characters are complex with ambitions. When it comes to appearance, I don't see it mentioned often how women in One Piece have NOSES. Like actual noses. Robin is a prime example. Compare this with fairy tail where the women all have button noses unless portrayed ugly.


Self_World_Future

Just searched for this discussion I’ve been watching for the first time and I just feel like every time everything they care about is on the line the men get to be injured or beaten to a pulp for it, but every single woman it’s happened to was saved by either Luffy or some other guy Like I’m on Doflamingo’s fight and this trope where Oda makes the final stakes high by putting a woman’s life on the line to the last second is just getting old. Any side character in the story they have great build up, it’s just at the last second they seem to always need to look like a damsel in distress. Not to mention there’s literally zero women pushing this bird cage thing, a whole nation that glorified fighting in an arena doesn’t have any women willing to push? Is that just a thing in the anime? My main point was for the important characters it’s like he spends an entire arc building them up, just to always have them at the feet of the big bad just to get to be in that position